The American (USA) 2016 presidential elections thread?

[Katman]

Measured? Does that include Suppressive Machinegun fire? Artillery? Airstrikes? Drone Strikes?

That doesn't sound like any sort of peacekeeping mission to me.

In fact, it sounds more like you're caught up in one of your little Call of Duty fantasies.

[oldrider]

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[husaberg]

That doesn't sound like any sort of peacekeeping mission to me.

In fact, it sounds more like you're caught up in one of your little Call of Duty fantasies.

I see Santa never bought you common sense or a dose of reality.
but he already had gifted you those law reforms in the mid 80's and the changes to the marriage act.
Maybe seeing as it so easy, you should thrill us all with your rules of engagement for peacekeeping that wil work and not kill all the perace keepers or the people they are supposed to protect.

[Katman]

Maybe seeing as it so easy, you should thrill us all with your rules of engagement for peacekeeping that wil work and not kill all the perace keepers or the people they are supposed to protect.

You should probably talk to Romeo Dallaire about it.

He'd be likely to have more ideas than me.

[husaberg]

You should probably talk to Romeo Dallaire about it.

He'd be likely to have more ideas than me.

The algae at the bottom of my pool have more effective ideas than you.
You consistently make claims but dont offer any solutions but yet claim to still know better. Your narcissism is laughable
Romeo Dallie wanted and actually begged that they needed to use far more force than was mandated.
Mentioning him is amusing considering you never even knew there was a UN peace keeping mission until yesterday.
Thats what makes me laugh about people like you always claim to much or not enough force was used, Its exactly like TDL said its a no win situation.
If the UN force had of stopped the killing you would be posting thread after thread about over reaction and excessive force like you do all over KB.

[Katman]

Romeo Dallie wanted and actually begged that they needed to use far more force than was mandated.

You should go digging for some dirt on him.

You never know, you might find he once took photos of his children in the bath.

I'm sure that would make your Xmas complete.

[husaberg]

You should go digging for some dirt on him.

You never know, you might find he once took photos of his children in the bath.

I'm sure that would make your Xmas complete.

You might want to go back two pages and see i posted a quote from him.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1131119715
Before you even knew who he was or that he was in Rwanda begging to great approvial to use more force and change the ROI.
He doesn't support your view that holding hands and singing kumbaya would have stoped the genocide or that the use of force is only to be used after all other means fail.
Hes a Solider used to making liife or death decisions not like you a narcissistic hypocritical keyboard warrior.

Ps you should see what he says about the holocaust his mother watched her friends die. You should tell him the jews only died of malnutrition and disease

The Tutsis were a minority in Rwanda, and their plight was personal for Dallaire. His Dutch mother had watched friends die in the Holocaust, and he had been raised on stories of heroic Canadian soldiers who brought hope to war-torn Europe.

A French Canadian raised in Montreal, Dallaire had experienced discrimination first-hand and was determined to protect the Tutsi minority. But he soon found his was a lone voice.
Dallaire also heard the Hutu government-run radio tell listeners that Tutsis were "nothing but cockroaches," broadcasting names of people to be murdered and instructions on how to mutilate and kill them.
It was an echo of past genocides. In Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge called their victims "worms." To the Nazis, Jews were "vermin."
Dallaire says he and his troops moved through entire villages of dead, sometimes clearing paths through corpses with their bare hands.

Here is some of his cable

To: Baril/DPKO/UNATIONS NEW YORK

From: Dallaire/UNAMIR/KIGALI

Subject: Request for protection for informant

Attn: MGen Baril Room No.2052

Force commander put in contact with informant by very very important government politician. Informant is a top level trainer in the cadre of Interhamwearmed militia of MRND.

He informed us he was in charge of last Saturday's demonstrations which aims were to target deputies of opposition parties coming to ceremonies and Belgian soldiers. They hoped to provoke the RPF BN to engage (being fired upon) the demonstrators and provoke a civil war. Deputies were to be assassinated upon entry or exit from Parliament. Belgian troops were to be provoked and if Belgians soldiers resorted to force a number of them were to be killed and thus guarantee Belgian withdrawal from Rwanda.

Then the outcome

ON JAN. 11, 1994, Gen. Romeo Dallaire, commander of U.N. forces in Rwanda, cabled headquarters that a key informer had told him a campaign was underway to register all Tutsi for purposes of their early killing. So testifying to Congress the other day, Alain Destexhe, the Belgian senator who initiated an exhaustive Belgian inquiry into the Rwanda genocide, asked, "How many times since 1945 has the U.N. received a fax from its force commander in a country warning of the likely possibility of an extermination?" Yet when Gen. Dallaire proposed an urgent arms-recovery operation, he was told the mission did not lie within his mandate. Instead he was instructed to ask the Belgian, French and American ambassadors simply to warn the Rwandan president allegedly planning a massacre.

[Viking01]

And not a colouring-in book in sight.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...endations-2018

[pritch]

And not a colouring-in book in sight.

It's highly unlikely that there will ever be a Trump Presidential Library, but if there ever is, it will only contain colouring books.

The books in his list are mostly by Fox "News" staff all of whom are shameless sycophants, and none of which he would have read. I can't wait to read them try to explain how they tried to warn us he was a crook - after his arse is busted.

[husaberg]

It's highly unlikely that there will ever be a Trump Presidential Library, but if there ever is, it will only contain colouring books.

The books in his list are mostly by Fox "News" staff all of whom are shameless sycophants, and none of which he would have read. I can't wait to read them try to explain how they tried to warn us he was a crook - after his arse is busted.

As he still refuses to release his tax records despite promises he would may i suggest trump will have a Cooking Book

[TheDemonLord]

That doesn't sound like any sort of peacekeeping mission to me.

In fact, it sounds more like you're caught up in one of your little Call of Duty fantasies.

Are you sure about that?



I mean, Really sure?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...nce,_pic-1.JPG

You say appropriate to the Threat, so when the threat is a Mob (Hundreds, possibly thousands or more) people armed (which, as I'm sure you'll be aware, isn't an exaggeration of what really happened) I presented you with some common options for use against multiple Hostile threats (Machine gun fire, and Area-effect weaponary) to prevent your positing from being overrun.

And now your changing tune (again).

I think it also bears repeating that you've still not articulated any scenario where you think the loss of Innocent life would justify the actions taken.

Here's what I'm starting to suspect - you know damn well what your principles are - which is you will never accept any innocent loss of life.

But you can't bring yourself to admit that to me, because you know I will simply point to multiple real world scenarios (of which Rwanda is perhaps the most clear) that failing to act, for fear of hurting/killing innocents can and will lead to much more innocents being hurt or killed.

[Katman]

But you can't bring yourself to admit that to me, because you know I will simply point to multiple real world scenarios (of which Rwanda is perhaps the most clear) that failing to act, for fear of hurting/killing innocents can and will lead to much more innocents being hurt or killed.

If you truly believe that the international community (predominantly America and the UK) didn't get further involved in Rwanda because they were worried about the backlash that they might encounter from hurting/killing innocents, then you are considerably more delusional than I've ever given you credit for.

[TheDemonLord]

If you truly believe that the international community (predominantly America and the UK) didn't get further involved in Rwanda because they were worried about the backlash that they might encounter from hurting/killing innocents, then you are considerably more delusional than I've ever given you credit for.

But you wouldn't have given them any credit either.

All it would take would be one Questionable action, a bad bit of Intel or a bad choice made in the heat of Battle - and you'd be all over them like a Rash. Protesting, calling them Warmongers, Demanding Inquiries, Accusing them of profiteering, Something to do with the Jews etc.

You say you support Peacekeeping, yet on the 3 times I've tried to nail you down to a scenario where Force is justified, even in a peacekeeping context - you've refused to answer it.

You like the idea, but you cannot stomach the reality.

The Greatest irony being that this hesitation/reluctance/unwillingness is exactly what caused the Failure of the Peacekeeping mission in Rwanda.

[husaberg]

If you truly believe that the international community (predominantly America and the UK) didn't get further involved in Rwanda because they were worried about the backlash that they might encounter from hurting/killing innocents, then you are considerably more delusional than I've ever given you credit for.

You do realise that the UK and the USA .are only two members of the UN don't you.
Why didn't Russia send troops
Seeing as you are a bit lacking lets see where else the US was comitted arround that time.
US DEPLOYMENTS
1992: Sierra Leone: Operation Silver Anvil, Following the April 29 coup that overthrew President Joseph Saidu Momoh, a United States European Command (USEUCOM) Joint Special Operations Task Force evacuated 438 people (including 42 Third Country nationals) on May 3. Two Air Mobility Command (AMC) C-141s flew 136 people from Freetown, Sierra Leone, to the Rhein-Main Air Base in Germany and nine C-130 sorties carried another 302 people to Dakar, Senegal.^[RL30172]
1992–1996: Bosnia and Herzegovina: Operation Provide Promise was a humanitarian relief operation in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the Yugoslav Wars, from July 2, 1992, to January 9, 1996, which made it the longest running humanitarian airlift in history.^[10]
1992: Kuwait: On August 3, 1992, the United States began a series of military exercises in Kuwait, following Iraqi refusal to recognize a new border drawn up by the United Nations and refusal to cooperate with UN inspection teams.^[RL30172]
1992–2003: Iraq: Iraqi no-fly zones, The U.S., United Kingdom, and its Gulf War allies declared and enforced "no-fly zones" over the majority of sovereign Iraqi airspace, prohibiting Iraqi flights in zones in southern Iraq and northern Iraq, conducting aerial reconnaissance, and several specific attacks on Iraqi air-defense systems as part of the UN mandate. Often, Iraqi forces continued throughout a decade by firing on U.S. and British aircraft patrolling no-fly zones.(See also Operation Northern Watch, Operation Southern Watch) ^[RL30172]
1993–1995: Bosnia: Operation Deny Flight, On April 12, 1993, in response to a United Nations Security Council passage of Resolution 816, U.S. and NATO enforced the no-fly zone over the Bosnian airspace, prohibited all unauthorized flights and allowed to "take all necessary measures to ensure compliance with [the no-fly zone restrictions]."
1993: Somalia: Battle of Mogadishu, or the First Battle of Mogadishu. October 3–4, 1993, Task Force Ranger, made up largely of the 75th Ranger Regiment and Delta Force entered hostile urban area Mogadishu to seize two high ranking S.N.A. leaders. Two American UH-60 Black Hawks are shot down, 18 Americans are killed in action, with another 73 wounded, and 1 captured.
1993: Macedonia: On July 9, 1993, President Clinton reported the deployment of 350 U.S. soldiers to the Republic of Macedonia to participate in the UN Protection Force to help maintain stability in the area of former Yugoslavia.^[RL30172]
1994: Bosnia: Banja Luka incident, NATO become involved in the first combat situation when NATO U.S. Air Force F-16 jets shot down four of the six Bosnian Serb J-21 Jastreb single-seat light attack jets for violating UN-mandated no-fly zone.
1994–1995: Haiti: Operation Uphold Democracy, U.S. ships had begun embargo against Haiti. Up to 20,000 U.S. military troops were later deployed to Haiti to restore democratically elected Haiti President Jean-Bertrand Aristide from a military regime which came into power in 1991 after a major coup.^[RL30172]
1994: Macedonia: On April 19, 1994, President Clinton reported that the U.S. contingent in Macedonia had been increased by a reinforced company of 200 personnel.^[RL30172]
1995: Bosnia: Operation Deliberate Force, On August 30, 1995, U.S. and NATO aircraft began a major bombing campaign of Bosnian Serb Army in response to a Bosnian Serb mortar attack on a Sarajevo market that killed 37 people on August 28, 1995. This operation lasted until September 20, 1995. The air campaign along with a combined allied ground force of Muslim and Croatian Army against Serb positions led to a Dayton Agreement in December 1995 with the signing of warring factions of the war. As part of Operation Joint Endeavor, U.S. and NATO dispatched the Implementation Force (IFOR) peacekeepers to Bosnia to uphold the Dayton agreemen

The UN deployments of the same era

1991–1995	United Nations Angola Verification Mission II (UNAVEM II)	Angola	Angolan Civil War
1992–1994	United Nations Operation in Mozambique (ONUMOZ)	Mozambique	Mozambican Civil War
1992–1993	United Nations Operation in Somalia I (UNOSOM I)	Somalia	Somali Civil War
1993–1997	United Nations Observer Mission in Liberia (UNOMIL)	Liberia	First Liberian Civil War
1993–1994	United Nations Observer Mission Uganda-Rwanda (UNOMUR)	Rwanda	Rwandan Civil War
Uganda
1993–1996	United Nations Assistance Mission for Rwanda (UNAMIR)	Rwanda	Rwandan Civil War
1993–1995	United Nations Operation in Somalia II (UNOSOM II)	Somalia	Somali Civil War
1994	United Nations Aouzou Strip Observer Group (UNASOG)	Chad	Aouzou Strip dispute
Libya

Note the 13 US soliders killed in Somalia where there bodies were draged through the streets
Afterwards the US voters were not keen on deploying troops unless it was in the US interst or the ROI allowed the troops to have a fair go at protecting themselves.
The US would haver needed congressional approvial to send troops after somalia that would not hve happened.
In rwandia the Belgian troops were withdrawn after 10 or so were killed odd you never focused on that.
Over the last 12 months Russia contributed 7500 less peace keepers than Ethiopia did
7000 less than Bangladesh.
The UN was running the peace keeping mission in Rwanda not the US.

AS TDL said that you claimed was not true, the US was damned if thry did dammed if they didn't.
The more you post the more desperate you get, the more it proves he was right all along.

[Katman]

But you wouldn't have given them any credit either.

Go back and re-read post #4786