Trump - 4 more years of this at least...

[TheDemonLord]

Thirty thousand lies in four years is a whole nutha thing and indicative of a mind detached from reality.

It certainly is....

Bu definitely not in the manner that you are inferring....

[Viking01]

..... Suffice to say I disagree - I come back to my point - if we aren't going to try and talk, then why should we not just bomb them to oblivion?

I don't like NK in terms of it's governance, it's ideology, censorship, human rights abuses etc. etc. But I still feel that if we can talk with them - it might be better than parking a couple of Aircraft carriers off in international waters and levelling what little infrastructure they still have.

I can only hope that if God decides to re-allocate his various portfolios, he doesn't assign you "international diplomacy".

The US has always been able to talk with the NK administration. But until Trump's era, it has largely chosen not to do so (apart from Bill Clintons broken promises in the late 1990's, followed by the Bush II Axis of Evil speech in 2002).

Because to engage in multi-lateral diplomatic talks - with some degree of US sincerity - might result in political outcomes not to US liking.

Such as:

1. NK-SK political engagement and diplomatic agreement (not necessarily reunification);
2. The US losing out (to Chinese or Russian parties) in contractual negotiations regarding exploitation of any mineral wealth - or infrastructure development - within NK;
3. Closer NK and SK relations - culminating in cross border visits by civilians, as well as joint business developments (such as the Kaesong Development Park);
4. The demand for removal of US imposed economic sanctions on NK;
5. The US being requested by SK to take its troops home, and its loss of a land-based "aircraft carrier" (useful for radar penetration and missile launch into China).

I too am not in favour of its governance and ideology, but having read plenty of recent history of the region (e.g. Japan, China, Korea, Vietnam), I can quite understand how much of the current situation has come about.

http://peacehistory-usfp.org/korean-war/

As for bombing NK into effective oblivion, well, that was effectively done (to great effect) by the US during the 1950-1953 war:

https://www.winterwatch.net/2019/10/...oward-america/

As well as the dropping of chemical and biological weapons on NK:

https://russia-insider.com/en/histor...cution/ri23685

Perhaps successive NK administrations have learned (from listening to the US's words and then watching US actions over the years) that having a nuclear weapon or two in one's back pocket is a handy deterrent to the US doing so again. And thus be very reluctant to halt its nuclear missile development programme.

And maybe, if given the chance (free from external interference - and US economic sanctions), the two Korean parties could map out and conclude a peace treaty and a mutually beneficial peace themselves.

https://www.rt.com/news/425346-korea...ents-moon-kim/

Though I do recognise that as a signatory to the 1953 Armistice, the US would also have to agree and sign off such a peace treaty. And nothing comes without strings attached.

[FJRider]

It certainly is....

Bu definitely not in the manner that you are inferring....

Reality is overrated. And your idea of reality radically differs from mine (Well it seems that way so far).

And Trumps version (or vision) of reality could not be anywhere near the version you or I might experience.


Access to the wealth and positions he holds ... makes it possible.



Such is (His) life ...

[pritch]

Another bit of news that might cause Trump to lose more sleep.

Trump apparently does not like Jeff Bezos. While he was president he constantly referred to Bezos' newspaper as the failing Washington Post. Nothing new there, the NY Times got the same treatment. Trump also tried to get the postal service to increase charges on Amazon parcels by 4 to 500% in an effort to reduce their profitabllity. There is no compelling reason for Bezos to be fond of Trump.

Bezos' latest business acquisition is reported to be MGM Studios for $9 billion. That gives Bezos ownership of "The Apprentice" the out takes of which reportedly contain use of racist language by Trump, among other things. As Colbert put it, "The private footage of a TV billionaire is gonna belong to an actual billionaire."

[TheDemonLord]

Interesting points as always - I'm going to focus on the one thing that I think you've glossed over:

1. NK-SK political engagement and diplomatic agreement (not necessarily reunification);
2. The US losing out (to Chinese or Russian parties) in contractual negotiations regarding exploitation of any mineral wealth - or infrastructure development - within NK;
3. Closer NK and SK relations - culminating in cross border visits by civilians, as well as joint business developments (such as the Kaesong Development Park);
4. The demand for removal of US imposed economic sanctions on NK;
5. The US being requested by SK to take its troops home, and its loss of a land-based "aircraft carrier" (useful for radar penetration and missile launch into China).
.

Now, I appreciate that on the face of it - those developments might not be strategically desirable by the US Military...


However on point 3, I think there's something you've missed - if there are cross border visits, where those from NK can see what their lives could be like in SK - that will be the Snowball that eventually grows to an Avalanche. I'm thinking the Soviet Union in the late 80s, east/west germany etc.

And a North Korea that moves from it's current totalitarian rule to something approaching freedom (I mean, let's use Russia as an example - it's still not at a level I'd consider to be 'Free' but it's better than it was) is ultimately better for everyone.

[Viking01]

Reply to DL post #3005

Afternoon.

Yes, you're correct in that:
1. I was simply focusing on aspects that would currently cause the US from even considering allowing the two Koreas to undertake a political reunification process under their own steam, and
2. I was deliberately ignoring a process by which reunification might occur.

Because until the US publicly announces that (i) it is willing to pack up its military forces and its missile systems and head home (ii) it will remove US sanctions - and support the removal of UN sanctions, I think that talk of some form of Korean reunification is moot.

And I don't see those specific events willingly happening, well, not in my lifetime.

Korean DMZ
I don't see a "breaking down the Berlin Wall" scenario playing out in Korea. If you look at your history books, you'll see that was a culmination of a process that occurred over approx a year(and involving other European states). The Korean DMZ is a far more militarised and heavily fortified boundary between two states.

And collapse of the Berlin Wall came about through increasing willingness of the Russian administration to accommodate change (perestoika, first mentioned by Brezhnev, but more actively pursued by Gorbachev).

Administrations and People
Apart from separate administrations with different (and opposed) ideologies - each with their own vested interests, the people of the two Koreas (despite their common heritage up to 1945) have since been taught to treat the other as the enemy. The generation that has any living memory of a past united Korea and a "common people" is probably almost gone.

Germany as a Model
You only have to look at the history of the reunified Germany for the first 20 years post 1989 to see how that played out.

While West Germany took on considerable debt to fund the German reunification process, ownership (or control) of many of the industries (and state assets) of former East Germany headed west. And even now, economic development of the eastern zone is still well behind that of the former western zone. Effectively, West Germany absorbed East Germany.

This lesson will not have been lost on the current NK administration.

Nor on either of its main sponsors (China and Russia). One of which still has memories of promises of "NATO, not an inch eastwards" , as a verbal undertaking given by the US during the German reunification negotiation process. And the other, very conscious of current US sabre-rattling and destabilisation efforts being conducted on its border regions.

So, you might say that there is currently a low level of trust on the parts of all parties.

What Would a Reunified Korea Look Like?
Before any reunification process can occur, you first have to define and agree what the end state will be:

1. One single country - like modern day Germany, or
2. Two separate countries - still with separate political administrations, but with considerable economic integration (and some limited social movement).

Plus the main parties to be involved, their long-term roles and their powers.

And then a pathway and a process (with mile stones), by which that is to be accomplished.

While I do have my own thoughts on Korean reunification - and possible steps in a process, I won't bother to try and outline them here.

Some Other Items for Consideration
That because of US actions (or political inaction on this topic), China and Russia could jointly reach a political agreement with the NK administration (outside of the UN). Including military support (defence).

That they could both revoke their current support for existing international (UN) economic sanctions on NK.

That they could ramp up supply of energy (oil and gas) to NK, and then both start to provide investment in and man-power to upgrade NK infrastructure (road, rail, energy supply) and manufacturing plant. Plus supply agreements for needed raw materials.

They both could enter into business contracts with NK for (i) mineral extraction and refining (ii) provision of modern phone network. Education services and development of tourism could also be provided in parallel.

And all of this without any US or SK participation. Just a thought.

[F5 Dave]

I'm sporadically listening to the Lazarus heist.

There have been several interesting programs on NK. The usual extreme oppression and fear that comes with a good dose of communism.

But this is how they fund shit through international cyber crime.

[FJRider]

Interesting points as always - I'm going to focus on the one thing that I think you've glossed over:

One thing YOU seem to have "Glossed over" ... North Korea, China, and the United States signed an armistice agreement. South Korea, however, objected to the continued division of Korea and did not agree to the armistice or sign a formal peace treaty. So while the fighting ended, technically the war never did.

Now, I appreciate that on the face of it - those developments might not be strategically desirable by the US Military...

With the war "Technically" still ongoing ... they won't want to go home. Their presence is the main reason the shooting hasn't continued.

However on point 3, I think there's something you've missed

Don't give him grief on missing any point ... you missed the fact the war hasn't ended.

And a North Korea that moves from it's current totalitarian rule to something approaching freedom ...

If their freedom included the ability to leave the country ... they'd probably ALL leave ... and wouldn't go back.


If YOU lived in North Korea and had the chance to leave ... would YOU go back ...

[F5 Dave]

Sth Korea wasn't actually much better in the 80s even (at least from a human rights point of view) with a military dictatorship. Much has changed in a short space of time. A generation has experienced enormous change. A lot of the dregs ws because of the need to push against the NK regime.

[husaberg]

Another bit of news that might cause Trump to lose more sleep.

Trump apparently does not like Jeff Bezos. While he was president he constantly referred to Bezos' newspaper as the failing Washington Post. Nothing new there, the NY Times got the same treatment. Trump also tried to get the postal service to increase charges on Amazon parcels by 4 to 500% in an effort to reduce their profitabllity. There is no compelling reason for Bezos to be fond of Trump.

Bezos' latest business acquisition is reported to be MGM Studios for $9 billion. That gives Bezos ownership of "The Apprentice" the out takes of which reportedly contain use of racist language by Trump, among other things. As Colbert put it, "The private footage of a TV billionaire is gonna belong to an actual billionaire."

real billionaires are a bit more classy

look at the tweets after the election Trump lost.
Jeff Bezos, the CEO of Amazon and the world’s richest person who never publically endorsed any candiate.

“By voting in record numbers, the American people proved again that our democracy is strong,” he wrote on Instagram.

or Bill Gates the world's second-richest person.

@BillGates
Nov 8, 2020
Congratulations to President-Elect Biden and Vice President-Elect Harris. Thank you to the election officials and campaign workers who worked tirelessly to ensure a record number of Americans could cast a ballot and have it counted during such an challenging time for our country.

[sugilite:Me]

At least one of us is having fun



The problem is that those groups will exist. Given the current political climate, the correct response is to NEVER apologise.

Thank God you are not a diplomat. Neither BLM or Antifa even existed when the 5 were exonerated when Trump should of apologized to them and their families - so your argument falls flat on it's face at that point.

You could also make the case that if someone (or a group) are found guilty of a crime, and the crime is of a heinous nature - it is right and proper to call for the Death Penalty (if that's what you believe in), if they are subsequently exonerated (with the implication that the appropriate checks, balances and processes in the imperfect legal system have finally turned) then there's you didn't do anything wrong. The system eventually worked.

Yes, I'm sure the 5 that did extensive jail time would wholeheartedly agree with your take on Justice "Working".

I'll find the post later.

Nope, no you won't because you never answered it - Kryptonite! Go on, give it a go mate. I'm picking the spin required for this one is going to add megawatts to the grid!

But I don't watch or follow Fox - In the wider, more 'grassroots' (I hate that term) commentary, that is closer to Trump's supporter base, There's references and discussion happening.

So, his msg is reaching his shrinking base only - what a winning media strategy !

Numerous times - and that includes times when I think it would have been right to intervene on what the individual states were doing.

As for Side-Stepping it - the question is what and by how much - and given some of Bidens rhetorhic on - let's say the first and second amendments - I'll take any side-steps you raise, in the manner that you raise them.

After the mauling Trump gave the constitution, don't go crying when the Dems do the same. I told you once Trump was out the dangerous precedents he gave birth to would come back to haunt the repubs. I would of laughed my arse off had the dems stacked the court and done away with the filibuster - but in true dem fashion, they all sat around a campfire in their nauseating woke state singing kumbaya as that train left the station. The only way they could of pulled it off would of been to do it on Feb 7 then rammed through a whole lot of stuff that they could of demonstrated was workable and beneficial come the mid terms. I tell you these dem fuckwits must all have Kevlar socks on, as they all repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot at any given opportunity.

Suffice to say I disagree - I come back to my point - if we aren't going to try and talk, then why should we not just bomb them to oblivion?

The NK/SK situation is a lot like the middle east situation as in there is simply no viable fix - especially one instigated by the States.

Are all lies of equal value and weighting?

I'll hear the principled argument that any lie, even if done for a noble intention:

"No Hunny, that doesn't make your arse look big"

is bad.

Or, "babe your beautiful booty is well accentuated by those new pants, lets get it on!"

But when it comes to Trump vs Other politicians - When Trump says it's gonna be the biggest/bestest/largest etc. I know he's not trying to deceive me, he knows he's not trying to decieve me and most of his supporters (at least the ones I watch/follow/talk to) also understand that there is no intent at deception behind his speech.

Whereas 5 minutes of (insert preferred politician here) and it's wholly different.

Hahaha, that has to be one of your best gloss overs yet mate - like the only lies told were exaggerations
I showed resene paints your post, they have said it has inspired them to create a new line in gloss paint called "demented lord" - nothing sticks to it!

I did spot a bit of news that will bring warmth to your stone cold heart mate - The New Zealand Communist overlords organization is imploding!
https://www.google.com/url?q=https:/...AAoVPzZiNF898A

Ah, Did TLDR try The old Trump did great myth for the economy......watch how he will like trump make claims but without any data to back him up.

And he did! Yes all it took was one BBC report. I'm picking the reporter earned a lifetime membership at Trumps Scottish Golf Course for that puff piece

All polititians lie on occasion, that's a given. Thirty thousand lies in four years is a whole nutha thing and indicative of a mind detached from reality. Who knew it was contagious?

According to DL Trump only made exaggerations, not outright lies
His Covid lies alone killed thousands.

[pritch]

According to DL Trump only made exaggerations, not outright lies
His Covid lies alone killed thousands.

Over thirty thousand 'exaggerations' during his term. SMH

His Covid lies and his politicisation of mask wearing has killed hundreds of thousands.

Oh, and you were spot on with the kevlar socks crack. Unless the Dems wake up the US will be an authoritarian state in 2024.

[husaberg]

And he did! Yes all it took was one BBC report. I'm picking the reporter earned a lifetime membership at Trumps Scottish Golf Course for that puff piece

According to DL Trump only made exaggerations, not outright lies
His Covid lies alone killed thousands.

Isn't it interesting how one puff piece or Trump statement is enough for TLDR to crow about trump when it's totally not backed by actual facts or stats?
it's almost a religious faith.
Just like when he claimed to know more about US security than the FBI or more about US laws than a US supreme court judge.

[pritch]

it's almost a religious faith.

It's a cult.

[husaberg]

It's a cult.

A Cult of alternative facts drawn up with a big mag grease-stained sharpie that only attracts the best followers.

Cause Merica, It's Red white and Blue baby.
Red necked White trash with blue balls trying to grab pussy