Biden

[Viking01]

Shit most of the reason the US was supporting the Mujahideen rebels was they were fighting the USSR.
Same as with the korean and the Vietnamese wars aad practicallally every other proxy war since WW2.
The oddest ones were the ones in the 1970s where you have 10,000s of Cuban troops in Africa.

Ogaden War
Shaba I
Mozambican Civil War
Yemenite War of 1979
Ethiopian–Somali Border War
South African Border War

Afternoon.

Interesting to see you mention Cuba in your post.

Of the wars you listed, several had a common link back to a single event: the collapse of the Portuguese colonial empire (following the Carnation coup in Portugal in 1974). Both Angola and Mozambique were Portuguese colonies in Africa (while Namibia is a neighbour of Angola).

At this point, a map is probably useful for reference:

https://www.britannica.com/place/AfricaBackground

The other Portuguese colony worthy of mention - which also involved fighting – but a little closer to home - is Portuguese Timor or East Timor, now known as Timor Leste.

Short Background
You’ll know the West (effectively the US) and the USSR were facing off around the world post WW2, with the USSR supporting the establishment of socialist states. Apart from the Cold War in Europe, this activity was occurring largely both in the Middle East and in Africa.

In the case of Cuba (a consequence of the 1961 missile crisis), the USSR and Cuba effectively made an agreement - by which the USSR would support Cuba both economically and militarily, while in return Cuba would act as a proxy for the USSR in some of these East-West conflicts.

Not only would Cuba supply troops for fighting, but more importantly, it would also supply other staff (such as doctors, teachers and engineers) to help support social development in those nations.

Portuguese Carnation Coup 1974 and end of Portuguese Empire
This occurred April 1974, and a direct consequence was that Portugal decided to "fold up its colonial picnic table" and go home. East-west competition soon commenced in its former colonies, and because of their geo-strategic locations and their large mineral wealth, "civil wars" soon erupted in both Angola (1975-2002) and Mozambique (1976-1992).

There are Wikis available online that give plenty of detail on each of the conflicts.

Angola
This was basically fought between the Marxist MPLA against UNITA (South Africa – who were acting as a US proxy) and the FLNA (Zaire, with US support). Fought over oil, bauxite, gold, uranium and diamonds, as well as a useful port location on the west African coast (for both military and oil servicing purposes).

https://oilfieldafricareview.com/cat...africa/angola/

In the case of Angola, there was an overlap with the Namibian War of Independence (Bush War) that you mentioned. This was principally due to South African forces straying over the northern border of Namibia into Angola and engaging the MPLA (and the Cubans).

Mozambique
This is a similar conflict, fought by an indigenous Marxist entity (FRELIMO), for independence and over resources such as bauxite, gold, copper and tantalum. Mozambique also offered basing opportunities on the eastern African coast (Indian Ocean).

Timor Leste
While this conflict did not involve the Cubans, it is one (involving a former Portuguese colony) that occurred in our geographic “neck of the woods”. I mention it only because of the participation and the behaviour of our US and Australian allies, in support of Indonesia.

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content...yed-east-timor

Anyone who has read a little history of this conflict will be aware why Indonesia was involved in Timor.

And indeed of Indonesia’s own bloody internal war earlier in 1965 (where the socialist Sukarno administration was violently overthrown by Suharto, with CIA support). For most, lost against the back-drop of the Vietnam War.

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/1...toric-message/

As a separate aside, it’s also interesting in that Cuba has been involved with the end of another empire: the Spanish colonial empire. And the start of another empire. A few links to show how Spain was dispossessed of its colonies, and how some happened to end up under US control.

Cuba
https://libertarianinstitute.org/art...ber-the-maine/

Hawaii
https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/06...ame-an-empire/

Philippines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip...93American_War

Guam
https://www.history.com/news/how-the...d-up-with-guam

Back to Cuba
https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-war...rorism/5751665

Perhaps it's no wonder there is no love lost between US and Cuban administrations, and why the US Cuban embargo has lasted 60 years.

[TheDemonLord]

Congrats Biden - helping the Taliban to be the 6th most powerful military on the Planet.

$85,000,000,000 worth of Military equipment.

I mean, I expected Biden to be a bad President.

Never in my wildest dreams to I imagine him to be this incompetent.

And here's your friendly reminder: Didn't happen under Trump.

[jasonu]

Never in my wildest dreams to I imagine him to be this incompetent.

Plenty did.

[pete376403]

Congrats Biden - helping the Taliban to be the 6th most powerful military on the Planet.

$85,000,000,000 worth of Military equipment.

I mean, I expected Biden to be a bad President.

Never in my wildest dreams to I imagine him to be this incompetent.

And here's your friendly reminder: Didn't happen under Trump.

So you are taking a line like this " The United States spent an estimated $83 billion training and equipping Afghan security forces over the last two decades" and suggesting it was all left in a big pile for the Taliban to come along and pick and chose? Thats pretty dishonest, even by your standards. Did you miss the bit about "the last two decades"? That covers a number of Presidents
How much of this is expended munitions, you know, one time use? How much of this is payments to contractors for "service rendered" (ie training - can the taliban re-use "training"?) How much of this military equipment is at inflated defence contractor prices? eg the $10,000 toilet cover -https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-air-forces-10000-toilet-cover/2018/07/14/c33d325a-85df-11e8-8f6c-46cb43e3f306_story.html

[Viking01]

Congrats Biden - helping the Taliban to be the 6th most powerful military on the Planet.

$85,000,000,000 worth of Military equipment.

I mean, I expected Biden to be a bad President.

Never in my wildest dreams to I imagine him to be this incompetent.

And here's your friendly reminder: Didn't happen under Trump.

TDL,
Look, don't fret about it. All the equipment has been paid for. The weapons companies will not have missed out from being reimbursed, and the sharemarket (well, the Dow Jones Industrial) hasn't been obviously affected. That's what's important.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1358/dow...-last-10-years

And as the following article commented, it's not all doom and gloom:

1. They don't have experienced pilots able to fly the aircraft.
2. They won't have access to supplies of spare parts for maintenance.
3. The US equipment breaks down so often that the equipment will effectively be of little long term use.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1906175.html

Personally, I don't think the Taliban will get anywhere near as much as the equipment original cost value on the second-hand market.

Besides, given that the US had planned to do a phased withdrawal from Afghanistan in the near future, surely this is not Joe Biden's fault ? Poor old Joe probably has enough trouble just remembering his name.

Surely this is the fault of the US military and intelligence community, who should have been planning and performing the progressive removal of their most valuable equipment, in line with their planned withdrawal ? Or was the Taliban sandal brigade just too quick for them, and caught them on the hop ? Just like those rice-propelled paddy farmers in Vietnam in 75 ?

[husaberg]

So you are taking a line like this " The United States spent an estimated $83 billion training and equipping Afghan security forces over the last two decades" and suggesting it was all left in a big pile for the Taliban to come along and pick and chose? Thats pretty dishonest, even by your standards. Did you miss the bit about "the last two decades"? That covers a number of Presidents
How much of this is expended munitions, you know, one time use? How much of this is payments to contractors for "service rendered" (ie training - can the taliban re-use "training"?) How much of this military equipment is at inflated defence contractor prices? eg the $10,000 toilet cover -https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-air-forces-10000-toilet-cover/2018/07/14/c33d325a-85df-11e8-8f6c-46cb43e3f306_story.html

Trumps border wall which only built 15 miles of "new" fencing was over 8 billion.

[F5 Dave]

I don't think anyone here likes Biden, but you can't blame him for being the last in line of 20 years of never should have fuking been there.

But jesus's strap-on (I got away for that before) trump was so fuking useless he couldn't tell his front bottom from his rear bottom.

[TheDemonLord]

So you are taking a line like this " The United States spent an estimated $83 billion training and equipping Afghan security forces over the last two decades" and suggesting it was all left in a big pile for the Taliban to come along and pick and chose? Thats pretty dishonest, even by your standards. Did you miss the bit about "the last two decades"? That covers a number of Presidents
How much of this is expended munitions, you know, one time use? How much of this is payments to contractors for "service rendered" (ie training - can the taliban re-use "training"?) How much of this military equipment is at inflated defence contractor prices? eg the $10,000 toilet cover -https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-air-forces-10000-toilet-cover/2018/07/14/c33d325a-85df-11e8-8f6c-46cb43e3f306_story.html

That's the quote from US Congressman and former reservist: Jim Banks.

Can you re-use Training? I dunno, can people taught by teachers become teachers? Let me know the answer...

But even if we go with a lower figure: a Measley $10 Billion (as others have estimated, likely taking into account depreciation) - it's still, by a long shot, the most spectacular failure I can remember in living Memory.

[TheDemonLord]

I don't think anyone here likes Biden, but you can't blame him for being the last in line of 20 years of never should have fuking been there.

But jesus's strap-on (I got away for that before) trump was so fuking useless he couldn't tell his front bottom from his rear bottom.

You can't blame him?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

He's literally the commander in chief of the Armed Forces! I mean, Truman "The Buck stops here"

I could accept that a withdrawal might get messy, but this wasn't a withdrawal, this was an absolute capitulation and a failure of unprecedented proportions - Even the British Press have commented on how Biden absolutely screwed their biggest and most fervent ally by not consulting with them.

And at this point any comments on Trump's competency or questions raised about it therein - I'm just gonna point to this and say:

Making the Terrorist organization known as the Taliban, the 6th most powerful Military on earth - didn't happen under Trump's watch.

[TheDemonLord]

TDL,
And as the following article commented, it's not all doom and gloom:

1. They don't have experienced pilots able to fly the aircraft.
2. They won't have access to supplies of spare parts for maintenance.
3. The US equipment breaks down so often that the equipment will effectively be of little long term use.

Given their penchant for Suicide Bombers, they only need it to work Once....

Personally, I don't think the Taliban will get anywhere near as much as the equipment original cost value on the second-hand market.

It's not the cash value that concerns me, nor is it the Taliban having the Dollar value, it's the clientele that they are likely to sell the arms to that I have a issue with.

Besides, given that the US had planned to do a phased withdrawal from Afghanistan in the near future, surely this is not Joe Biden's fault ? Poor old Joe probably has enough trouble just remembering his name.

I've been loving all the train wreck 'press conferences' that Biden has been giving, I've seen more convincing performances (with more audience interaction) in a Christmas Panto. Remember all those people who said Trump never sounded Presidential - Ladies and Gentleman, I give you: Joe, you-know-the-thing-uh....

Surely this is the fault of the US military and intelligence community, who should have been planning and performing the progressive removal of their most valuable equipment, in line with their planned withdrawal ? Or was the Taliban sandal brigade just too quick for them, and caught them on the hop ? Just like those rice-propelled paddy farmers in Vietnam in 75 ?

Every current Military, ex-military and Military enthusiast channel that I follow have all said the exact same thing - I don't think this was a Military decision, I believe it was purely political.

[Viking01]

But even if we go with a lower figure: a Measley $10 Billion (as others have estimated, likely taking into account depreciation) - it's still, by a long shot, the most spectacular failure I can remember in living Memory.

Not even close.

https://wallstreetonparade.com/2021/...until-tonight/

https://wallstreetonparade.com/2021/...nking-hearing/

[pritch]

And indeed of Indonesia’s own bloody internal war earlier in 1965 (where the socialist Sukarno administration was violently overthrown by Suharto, with CIA support). For most, lost against the back-drop of the Vietnam War.

Lost for most perhaps, but not for all. New Zealanders were involved in the region, including in Sarawak to protect the border against incursions by Indonesian troops. I would question the year Suharto overthrew Sukarno. In 1965 and 66 Sukarno was still in control, Suharto assumed power in 1967.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plaman_Mapu

In 1966 D Coy 1RNZIR were based in Plaman Mapu.

[Viking01]

Lost for most perhaps, but not for all. New Zealanders were involved in the region, including in Sarawak to protect the border against incursions by Indonesian troops. I would question the year Suharto overthrew Sukarno. In 1965 and 66 Sukarno was still in control, Suharto assumed power in 1967.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plaman_Mapu

In 1966 D Coy 1RNZIR were based in Plaman Mapu.

Fair point. Happy to concede.

I was simply intending to point out that the civilian killings started in 1965, even though ultimately the overthrow of Sukarno occurred some time later (in 1967).

https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...killings-1960s
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017101...s-involvement/

[Edit]
https://jacobinmag.com/2019/01/unmas...ommunist-party

I was originally going to include a link about the related US-initiated "carve-up" of Indonesian resources that occurred around the same time (e.g. allocation of minerals such as gold, copper, nickel) between various major western mining companies), but I couldn't find the articles or links I had in mind.

[Edit]
https://orientalreview.org/2018/07/1...ias-stability/

https://www.monbiot.com/2018/11/23/slavemasters/

[Viking01]

Given their penchant for Suicide Bombers, they only need it to work Once....
...
It's not the cash value that concerns me, nor is it the Taliban having the Dollar value, it's the clientele that they are likely to sell the arms to that I have a issue with.
...
I've been loving all the train wreck 'press conferences' that Biden has been giving, I've seen more convincing performances (with more audience interaction) in a Christmas Panto. Remember all those people who said Trump never sounded Presidential - Ladies and Gentleman, I give you: Joe, you-know-the-thing-uh....
...
Every current Military, ex-military and Military enthusiast channel that I follow have all said the exact same thing - I don't think this was a Military decision, I believe it was purely political.

Morning.
Thanks for the reply, as always.

1. Suicide Bombers
Not quite sure I see the point you're making, especially when responsibility for the latest Kabul bombing has been claimed by / attributed to ISIS - KP. If you scroll down to the section sub-heading within the following link:

What we know so far – IS claims responsibility for attack
"The Islamic State group’s affiliate in Afghanistan has claimed responsibility for the attack outside the Kabul airport."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...080ef844e76c7e

2. Buyers of US Arms Seized by the Taliban
So, just who are some of "these clientele" that the Taliban might sell US weapons to ?

Is it some-one to whom the (i) US (ii) UK (iii) France or Germany (iv) Russia, haven't been selling weapons to the last 10+ years ?

Otherwise, Yes, I'd be mighty upset that some-one was trying to "move in on my patch" and flog off "second hand weapons" that they'd suddenly acquired. Even worse when they didn't offer supply of maintenance spares.

What's the business of "selling armaments globally" coming to ? Always buy from a reputable buyer, I say.

3. Joe Biden Press Conferences
I'm not defending either Red or Blue teams, their front-men or their sponsors.

Though if I recall rightly, Trump did attempt to initiate US troop draw-downs during his term, and the US military administration effectively ignored his direction to do so. [ Just as well John Bolton and Mike Pompeo were there to keep things in hand, and Trump on the "straight-and-narrow".]

4. Decision to Exit Afghanistan
Political vs Military Decision - Again, I don't quite see your point.

You're likely quite right in your assertion, in that the decision to exit Afghanistan was ultimately a political decision.

But surely the same could be said about the decision to invade Afghanistan in the first place.

If I recall rightly, Bush Junior used the following as the justification in calling for the Afghan invasion in the first place:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...-107publ40.htm

And that the same piece of legislation has effectively been used by both Red and Blue administrations since, to justify all manner of US government actions subsequent (e.g use of Guantanamo Bay to hold detainees; eaves-dropping on communications of US citizens, etc).

As for whether the US military "made the decision" (or "agreed with the decision"). What is the relevance ?

Or are you telling me that the US military (and its backers) now make the decision for the US to wage (or cease making) war external to the US ? Outside of the US Senate ?

Cheers, Viking

[pritch]

One other thing. It was Mr Pliger I think mentioned the IMF/World Bank. When Australia and NZ sent troops to Timor the Indonesian plan was to wait until they landed then bomb them into oblivion. It was apparently the IMF/World Bank that got them to drop that plan.

Did hear an interesting story from a former NZ Police officer who worked in Timor. The NZ Police had a programme teaching locals about identifying bodies and processing documentation of same. There was a problem, albeit a good one, there were very few bodies available at the time.

Then Kiwi soldier Private Manning was killed by the Indonesians. A short time later Helen Clarke arrived on an official visit to Timor with an NZSAS escort. After her visit she left. Without her escort. Shortly thereafter a somewhat continuous stream of bodies started arriving for processing, aiding the Police training programme immensely.