New Zealand Power (from Don't Vote Labour)

[RiderInBlack]

2020 - the government announce a new tax relief package:

All tax payers consuming more than 1kg of onions and facing west towards their local wind warm at 6pm each evening will be able to claim a 'wind allowance' on their tax return.

Will it help if we get all the sheep and cows ta face the same way

[Jantar]

From what I've been told (by a person in Transpower) if all the areas in NZ that had enough wind (of the right speed, consistency etc) had wind turbines on them, then they would only generate enough power at full capacity to supply 10% of NZ's needs.

This is correct in terms of energy (average power), but the peak potential is around 2000 MW which is 33% of our peak winter demand. The problem is that the wind may not be blowing during the period of high demand, or it may be blowing during a summer trough when the demand is only 3000 MW, so what do we do with the extra? I suspect what he was actually saying is that greatest installed capacity that the country can cope with is 10%, or around 600 MW. Any more than this will cause serious problems with scheduling, dispatch, and transmission.

There are currently two geothermal power plants being built with a 3rd to be built shortly thereafter. This is part of a proposal to build up to 10.

Only two have so far been consented, and the Minister has called in consents on a third one. There are a further possible seven steam fields that could be utilised if they can get consent. Most of these are unlikely. (Whakawera in Rotorua for example). Even if all were built the output would be less than Clyde Dam.

I understand that if only the smallest nuclear plant was built it would too big for NZ's needs. Is that correct Jantar or K14?

The smallest commercial reactors are far too big for New Zealand. There are small specialist reactors like those designed for nuclear submarines that are small enough for NZ, if you want to pay $0.40 per unit running costs. The current research into pebble bed reactors may produce plant small enough at a reasonable cost. Just don't hold your breath.

[McJim]

So where are the plans for a greenie fired power station?

Geothermal power is the way to go. Drill 2 bore holes that join at the bottom, pour water down one and stick a turbine over the other one. Repeat as required until power problem solved - easy.

[davereid]

As Jantar points out, wind power can't be easily stored.

But its also very expensive - were it not for "carbon credits" it would be un-economic.

The machines are pretty horrible too - massive structures which take a lot of building, a lot of maintaining, and only manage to produce about 0.6Mw each under perfect conditions.

With just a tiny bit of nitrous, I can get that out of my car !

The reality is, all these wind generators could be replaced with a single diesel engine, that could fit in my barn !

[sAsLEX]

The smallest commercial reactors are far too big for New Zealand. There are small specialist reactors like those designed for nuclear submarines that are small enough for NZ, if you want to pay $0.40 per unit running costs. The current research into pebble bed reactors may produce plant small enough at a reasonable cost. Just don't hold your breath.

How large are they, MW?

[RiderInBlack]

The smallest commercial reactors are far too big for New Zealand. There are small specialist reactors like those designed for nuclear submarines that are small enough for NZ, if you want to pay $0.40 per unit running costs. The current research into pebble bed reactors may produce plant small enough at a reasonable cost. Just don't hold your breath.

So no "Mr Fusion" for the Dalorian yet

[Jantar]

The reactors for naval use are around 190 - 250 MW, but very expensive to operate. For a list of commercial reactors currently certified or undergoing trials see: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear...ucenviss2.html

There are a couple listed that may be suitable for NZ in the future at 180 - 360 MW range.

[sAsLEX]

The reactors for naval use are around 190 - 250 MW, but very expensive to operate. For a list of commercial reactors currently certified or undergoing trials see: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear...ucenviss2.html

There are a couple listed that may be suitable for NZ in the future at 180 - 360 MW range.

Surely something around 360MW would be sustainable?
IRIS Westinghouse et al 360 PWR Pre-certification 2010

I mean what is the minimum NI load?

[Bikernereid]

Look to the frogs as they have got their power supllies sorted out and I would say that one of their nuclear power plants could sort you guys (and girls before I offend someone) nicely.

From what I've been told (by a person in Transpower) if all the areas in NZ that had enough wind (of the right speed, consistency etc) had wind turbines on them, then they would only generate enough power at full capacity to supply 10% of NZ's needs. There are currently two geothermal power plants being built with a 3rd to be built shortly thereafter. This is part of a proposal to build up to 10.

I understand that if only the smallest nuclear plant was built it would too big for NZ's needs. Is that correct Jantar or K14?

[Jantar]

Yes, the IRIS would be a suitable size. Not yet certified, but it does show promise. It is also in the same size range as Otahuhu, Huntly E3P and Stratford which are our current largest units.

[sAsLEX]

Yes, the IRIS would be a suitable size. Not yet certified, but it does show promise. It is also in the same size range as Otahuhu, Huntly E3P and Stratford which are our current largest units.

Yeah misread your post a little sorry!


But would would the min load be?

Those are all combined cycle single units are they?

[rainman]

As Jantar points out, wind power can't be easily stored.

But its also very expensive - were it not for "carbon credits" it would be un-economic.

The machines are pretty horrible too - massive structures which take a lot of building, a lot of maintaining, and only manage to produce about 0.6Mw each under perfect conditions.

With just a tiny bit of nitrous, I can get that out of my car !

The reality is, all these wind generators could be replaced with a single diesel engine, that could fit in my barn !

What about using the excess generated wind power to pump water back up the dam systems? I expect that would have poor efficiency at this stage but would be better than just throwing it away.

I actually like the look of a line of turbines on a hillside, but I take your point that they take a bit of building..

As to the un-economic argument, I don't think it's reasonable to call this when all of the externalities aren't priced in to the current set of generation options. Sure, from an engineering perspective, the diesel generator is easier, but if climate change is as real a problem as it seems (sounds like a safe bet, the howls of denial are now only coming from the fringes) then it isn't better. We do need to adjust our value systems in response to a changing planet.

We seem to have lost our ability to execute large-scale planned change, what with the recent-ish shift to more libertarian ideals in the west. Unfortunately some problems do require more intelligence than a simple market mechanism can bring to bear. More unfortunately we don't have any suitably states-person like government options to deal with the problem either!

[sAsLEX]

the diesel generator is easier

a diesel engine can be made to run on basically anything, say biofuel........

[Jantar]

Yeah misread your post a little sorry!


But would would the min load be?

Those are all combined cycle single units are they?

Minimum North Island load would be around 1800 MW.

And yes, those 3 listed are all combined cycle plant.

[Bikernereid]

Can be efficiently made from Sugar beets, wood chips etc etc and requires no adaption for cars upto a a certain % so whay the hell can't some spoddy little engineer (sAsLEX, not you!!) make it work for energy supplies. Oh shit oil and petrolium industry lobbying politicicans!!

a diesel engine can be made to run on basically anything, say biofuel........