FFS! This is just ridiculous! MUST READ - OPINIONS PLEASE

[cowboyz]

The shocking part of all this is that common sense is not all that common. I hear all the time about how it is too hard to legislate what is acceptable or not so might as well have zero tolerance.

A workmate of mine was in the supermarket the other day and there was a father with a child of about 7. The kid was causing hell, running round, yelling and being a right pain in the arse. The father repeatly and increasingly was getting more and more frustrated and asking his kid to settle down. The kid wasnt having a bar of it.
When my workmate was walking round the corner at the back of the store he saw the father give the kid a swift clip across the ear. The kid was shellshocked but not as much as the father who found himself speechless looking directly at my workmate. All a bit awkward. My workmate said, dont worry mate, I would have done the same ages ago, having an 8 yr old of his own.
The relief from the father was very apparent.

Naysayers will bleet about the emotional damage inflicted on the kid. What about the emotional damage inflicted on a parents having to listen to a misbehaving kid all day. Nip it in the bud and teach some respect.

Interesting note is I have 3 kids. 2 of which I have never laid a hand on, 1 which has had a fair smack across the hand a few times. (I prefer to make them hold their hand out and wait for it, because anyone who has had the strap or cane at school knows that the waiting is much much worse than the impact). I am happy with the way my kids are in public and around the community.
Action and reaction. Basic physics.

[WarlockNZ]

You got a jug chord. Mine was a razor strop embedded with lead. I never mistreated my children in the way I was.
Skyryder

See.. now THAT is abuse and I for one would report that shit, come on .. a razor strop embedded with lead??

Thats not discipline, thats wailing on your child.

[awayatc]

"New Zealand has nothing to be complacent about. In a UNICEF / INNOCENTI report written in 2005, New Zealand ranks 3rd worst out of 27 OECD countries in terms of children’s deaths from maltreatment. New Zealand has levels of child maltreatment deaths that are 4 to 6 times higher than the average for the leading countries."

Sourced from: http://www.unicef.org.nz/news/news/news1160684054.html

And how does that quote of yours relate to the issues raised in this thread?
So parents that give a clip around the ear of their kids are responsible for maltreatment deaths?

Please present me one shred of "evidence", that even just one of these childmurderers was even remotely considered to be a normal parent....let alone one who took interest in a balanced upbringing for his/her offspring.....

Don't put off till tomorow what you can do today......
(It will most likely have been made illegal by then....)

[Ms Piggy]

And how does that quote of yours relate to the issues raised in this thread?
So parents that give a clip around the ear of their kids are responsible for maltreatment deaths?

Please present me one shred of "evidence", that even just one of these childmurderers was even remotely considered to be a normal parent....let alone one who took interest in a balanced upbringing for his/her offspring.....

Don't put off till tomorow what you can do today......
(It will most likely have been made illegal by then....)

I'm sure I could find evidence you ask for but because I know it won't change your view I won't bother. We'll have to agree to disagree. It is my line of work that influences my views.

[Winston001]

What a joke.

It is lack of discipline and this kind of shit that destroys people. We need to take a firmer stance but everyone is too scared they'll "hurt the little darlings feelings" and the like.

The best thing for some people is a heavy hand of discipline. The more that we try and outlaw discipline in our society the worse this kind of thing is going to get. Then, people will sit around and ask "why is our country going downhill so much?"

I agree with your theme - discipline is essential for learning and respect. Where we differ is thinking discipline means assault. It doesn't.

Adults hitting kids isn't admirable. It isn't brave. It isn't even effective. Often the bullies teachers have to deal with at school are simply acting out what happens to them at home. Thats what a kid learns if you hit them - physical assault is how to impose your will on others.

The example of the 7yr old running amok tells us the parents have not taught that child restraint in public places at a much earlier age. 7 is a bit late to start.

I have three children now entering their teens. They were smacked a few times as toddlers but mostly time-out, TV withdrawn, treats taken away, etc. And taked to.

Same with their friends. All these kids are decent children with no violent or anti-social tendencies. In fact people often tell my wife and I how good they are.

Guys - great big hulking adults do not need to hit kids. Simple.

[cowboyz]

Adults hitting kids isn't admirable.
It isn't brave.
It isn't even effective.

I have three children now entering their teens. They were smacked a few times as toddlers but mostly time-out, TV withdrawn, treats taken away, etc. And taked to.

Guys - great big hulking adults do not need to hit kids. Simple Is it????????.

is it really that simple? I actually cut your quote a bit too much. In there you mention that 7yrs old is a bit too late to start disaplining your kids and you should start earlier. Then you do on to say you smacked your kids "a few times as toddlers" When is enough, enough? With the new anti-smacking bill you have already admitted to have gone too far. But then go on to say it wasnt neccessary. Which side of the fence are you on?

[RDJ]

"For most children, New Zealand is a wonderful place to grow up in. Some are not so lucky. Childhood trauma, abuse, violence and neglect are a fact of life (and sometimes death) for too many of our young people.

Child abuse, violence and trauma affects thousands of children with over 63,000 referrals made to Child Youth and Family in 2006.

It is estimated that each year in New Zealand:

* Every month one child is killed through physical abuse
* 9,800 children are hospitalized with preventable injuries
* There is a $5.32 billion fiscal and economic cost to New Zealand on the long term effects of childhood abuse
* Approximately 15% of children are born at risk
* More than 80,000 children are witnesses of family violence
* One family member is killed through family violence every 12½ days"

Direct quote from: http://www.cps.org.nz/page/cps_5.php

We're all sadly aware that this is what is happening to children. But where is the link between a smack on the bottom and murdering your child? The majority of us over-50's were brought up in the 40s and 50s being smacked and (1) our parents were not murdering us then and (2) we don't murder our kids now. Therefore - why do people think these stats (I assume you quoted them in support of the anti-smacking legislation), support anti-smacking legislation? I would rather think that the quoted stats highlight the results of lack of discipline in some of the current generation of parents so that Cru's and Lillybing's abusers think that actions do not have consequences. Those of us who got strapped at school and smacked at home for misbehaviour could not avoid drawing the conclusion that actions had consequences...

[Ms Piggy]

We're all sadly aware that this is what is happening to children. But where is the link between a smack on the bottom and murdering your child? The majority of us over-50's were brought up in the 40s and 50s being smacked and (1) our parents were not murdering us then and (2) we don't murder our kids now. Therefore - why do people think these stats (I assume you quoted them in support of the anti-smacking legislation), support anti-smacking legislation? I would rather think that the quoted stats highlight the results of lack of discipline in some of the current generation of parents so that Cru's and Lillybing's abusers think that actions do not have consequences. Those of us who got strapped at school and smacked at home for misbehaviour could not avoid drawing the conclusion that actions had consequences...

The link is violence and you won't convince me otherwise.

[RDJ]

The link is violence and you won't convince me otherwise.

Not trying to. Was asking a question / suggesting an explanation.

[Winston001]

is it really that simple? I actually cut your quote a bit too much. In there you mention that 7yrs old is a bit too late to start disiplining your kids and you should start earlier. Then you do on to say you smacked your kids "a few times as toddlers" When is enough, enough? With the new anti-smacking bill you have already admitted to have gone too far. But then go on to say it wasnt neccessary. Which side of the fence are you on?

Yep, absolutely fair comment. I was trying to be truthful - in fact I think I smacked each child on the bottom twice each in 5 years. No bruises, no hysteria - and no breach of the law as it was then - or now.

My point is that my wife and I didn't smack the children for discipline - and we have lovely kids today.

I'm human - I was smacked hard as a child and initially thought it was ok for me as a parent to do the same. It was only because I went to parenting courses that I changed my mind - and I'm damned glad I did.

You are still allowed to lightly discipline your child - it remains lawful. No decent parent has anything to worry about.

[Sparrowhawk]

IMHO there's a huge difference between 'hitting' and 'smaking'. Hitting a kid, eg. punching, no need for it. A smack on the hand or the bum, no problem

"but what about the emotional impact" the holier-than-thou's exclaim?

What about the emotional impact of time out? Don't try and bullshit me and say there isn't any. Or the emotional impact of no discipline? Screwed up kids that will get a rude awakening when they hit the real world, 'coz employers won't take the shit and backtalk that their parents can't deal with, and they'll get fired.

And yeah, I've got two kids, a 2 year old & a 6 year old, and yeah, they get a light smack when they need it. I use time out & removing toys etc too, but with a two year old, you sometimes need to get the message through. Like has been said already, if a toddler is putting things in wall sockets, playing with heaters etc., they need to have it associated with pain. I'd rather that pain be for 20 seconds from a smack on the hand than from a bad burn.

Rant over

[awayatc]

IMHO there's a huge difference between 'hitting' and 'smaking'. Hitting a kid, eg. punching, no need for it. A smack on the hand or the bum, no problem

"but what about the emotional impact" the holier-than-thou's exclaim?

What about the emotional impact of time out? Don't try and bullshit me and say there isn't any. Or the emotional impact of no discipline? Screwed up kids that will get a rude awakening when they hit the real world, 'coz employers won't take the shit and backtalk that their parents can't deal with, and they'll get fired.

And yeah, I've got two kids, a 2 year old & a 6 year old, and yeah, they get a light smack when they need it. I use time out & removing toys etc too, but with a two year old, you sometimes need to get the message through. Like has been said already, if a toddler is putting things in wall sockets, playing with heaters etc., they need to have it associated with pain. I'd rather that pain be for 20 seconds from a smack on the hand than from a bad burn.

Rant over

You are right.....shame you didn't make the law.....Sue did...

[awayatc]

The link is violence and you won't convince me otherwise.

Is that you Sue....?

[skidMark]

....bloody PC Bullshit is ruining this country

And this forum.

[Ms Piggy]

Not trying to. Was asking a question / suggesting an explanation.

Will try to compile an answer when I have a moment and PM you.