2005 600cc Sport production results

[svr]

1:10 on a stock 600? that would be bloody impressive!!

If a (near) pensioner (no offense Terry) on an 85hp sv can do 12s, NZs best racers would go 2 seconds faster on 110 hp 600s.

[cowpoos]

.
Around 2002 all of the japanese manufacturers made statements to the effect that their 600s were now developed to maximize their racetrack performance, with road performance openly compromised.
That was my point - this perfomance is now readily available at a low price point.
.

errr...you heard of the concept of marketing??

[moT]

so how much does it cost for a race winning spec 600 and the running costs for a season? anyone

[svr]

errr...you heard of the concept of marketing??

Yes, but in this case the statements corresponded with such small machine details as:
lowered handlebars, raised rearsets, powerbands that only started at 10k, rock-hard seats, etc, etc. Oh and plummeting laps times.
And those manufacturers developing `road bikes' alongside their 600s when previously those 600s could do it all.

[CHOPPA]

so how much does it cost for a race winning spec 600 and the running costs for a season? anyone

Theres probably only 1 or 2 guys that could actually answer that. My bike is now prob able to win races with the right rider and it has cost $16k all up. Each national round would cost 3 sets of tyres at whatever you pay and then just the usual on fuel and travel entrys gear etc but thats like any other class also maybe breakages and maybe an engine freshen up. Should be able to save most of your used tyres for practice. once the bike is set up if you were to stay on then the only diff in cost to run your bike compared to like pro twins is tyre consumption

[moT]

Theres probably only 1 or 2 guys that could actually answer that. My bike is now prob able to win races with the right rider and it has cost $16k all up. Each national round would cost 3 sets of tyres at whatever you pay and then just the usual on fuel and travel entrys gear etc but thats like any other class also maybe breakages and maybe an engine freshen up. Should be able to save most of your used tyres for practice. once the bike is set up if you were to stay on then the only diff in cost to run your bike compared to like pro twins is tyre consumption

thats not toooo bad thanks

[svr]

I saw $35000 get poured into a 600SP bike this past season, and I didn't charge for labour on it.

see others

[Robert Taylor]

600 production bikes (that is the thread). They are developed and tested primarily on race tracks, right?
Has anyone sane taken an R6 touring with the wife on the back recently? Me neither. A ridiculous road bike really.
R6s (and CBRs, ZX-6s etc.) seem to work remarkably well at the track though (what does it cost to get a `proper race car' to do 10s at Manfield?).
They work so well `standard' (yes that horrible word) that it costs the original purchase price to improve one by 3 seconds faster around a track.
Around 2002 all of the japanese manufacturers made statements to the effect that their 600s were now developed to maximize their racetrack performance, with road performance openly compromised.
That was my point - this perfomance is now readily available at a low price point.

As a negative point to the 600 production case however, and one Robert you could shed some light on - I read in a magazine today that suspension tuners have noticed that original equipment suspension has actually lowered in quality over the last couple of years, as if manufacturers just expect racers or anyone serious to just bin the fork cartridges and shocks for aftermarket replacements (??) A worrying trend.

In 1938 Neville Chamberlain hopped off a plane having signed a treaty with a short german dictator. Poor ol Nev waved a piece of paper proclaiming ''peace in our time''. Here in NZ we have a Government led by a party that over the decades has proclaimed its for the working man...what a load of bollocks! I think motorcycle manufacturers marketing is as misleading and ''thin'' as statements from politicians.
The reality is that the machines you quote are indeed uncomfortable on the road for any given distance and their chassis geometry is ''race ready''. But there are shortcomings that actually dont make them ''race fit'', if you like.
And YES, we are seeing more evidence of sealed and very cheaply made cartridges. Despite all the PR hype these things are made by accountants who make a career out of finding cheaper and cheaper ways to make things. That is precisely why makers of high quality well performing goods prosper.

What is the magazine ( and month ) you were reading?

[Robert Taylor]

If a (near) pensioner (no offense Terry) on an 85hp sv can do 12s, NZs best racers would go 2 seconds faster on 110 hp 600s.

Thats because another ''near pensioner'' supplies and fettles his suspension!

[CHOPPA]

I have a 600 im selling thats fully capable of winning most club days depending on the rider and im selling it for 8k, you could even ride it to work or the track for that matter.

[svr]

In 1938 Neville Chamberlain hopped off a plane having signed a treaty with a short german dictator. Poor ol Nev waved a piece of paper proclaiming ''peace in our time''. Here in NZ we have a Government led by a party that over the decades has proclaimed its for the working man...what a load of bollocks! I think motorcycle manufacturers marketing is as misleading and ''thin'' as statements from politicians.
The reality is that the machines you quote are indeed uncomfortable on the road for any given distance and their chassis geometry is ''race ready''. But there are shortcomings that actually dont make them ''race fit'', if you like.
And YES, we are seeing more evidence of sealed and very cheaply made cartridges. Despite all the PR hype these things are made by accountants who make a career out of finding cheaper and cheaper ways to make things. That is precisely why makers of high quality well performing goods prosper.

What is the magazine ( and month ) you were reading?

I personally think that the major manufacturers produce quality machines and have made a staggering amount of RACE TRACK performance available to riders today - $14K for a gsxr-600? All engineers/manufacturers work to budget, thankfully for us actual riders who have to pay for performance.
I wasn't actually refering to all the ad men hype (I too hate advertising), but to their design engineers, who have admitted that they now design motorcycles with a low road focus - not really boasting but stating different design goals, which have undeniably shifted most notably around 5yrs ago (why can't we agree on that?)

That article is in `performance bikes' - currently on the news stands.

Hey RT why don't you start a political thread ! - we can discuss how socialist Russia stopped that short german right-wing fascist elistist. Or how the 4th Labour govt shafted the nz working man with free-market reform (what the...) And National changed nothing when given the chance. Or how there's no Left, Right or indeed even such thing as sovereign nation-state democracy anymore, just global/corporate capitalism with red-tape, moral rhetoric and politicians saying anything to get approval from the herd.
Crazy times. And accountants building incredibly fast bloody motorbikes - well I never!

[Robert Taylor]

I personally think that the major manufacturers produce quality machines and have made a staggering amount of RACE TRACK performance available to riders today - $14K for a gsxr-600? All engineers/manufacturers work to budget, thankfully for us actual riders who have to pay for performance.
I wasn't actually refering to all the ad men hype (I too hate advertising), but to their design engineers, who have admitted that they now design motorcycles with a low road focus - not really boasting but stating different design goals, which have undeniably shifted most notably around 5yrs ago (why can't we agree on that?)

That article is in `performance bikes' - currently on the news stands.

Hey RT why don't you start a political thread ! - we can discuss how socialist Russia stopped that short german right-wing fascist elistist. Or how the 4th Labour govt shafted the nz working man with free-market reform (what the...) And National changed nothing when given the chance. Or how there's no Left, Right or indeed even such thing as sovereign nation-state democracy anymore, just global/corporate capitalism with red-tape, moral rhetoric and politicians saying anything to get approval from the herd.
Crazy times. And accountants building incredibly fast bloody motorbikes - well I never!

You know theres a lot there that I agree with, the trouble is the smoke and mirrors stuff fools a lot of the people a lot of the time, and yes the working man is being screwed by both ends of the ( now fuzzy ) political divide.

[svs]

This is a cool thread. lots of good ideas. Here's my thoughts - as an kind of average racer who pays his own way through the nationals.

I know that i don't have the talent of the top guys, I'm out there for the fun and enjoyment of the sport. I spend pretty much all of my spare cash and more on my bike racing because to me it what I enjoy, even if i do end up running at the back of the field.

I started racing 600s last year on a 2005 bike. Kit parts on the engine, a 99 ohlins rear shock and standard front.

1st big improvement was getting RT to get the correct spring rate in the rear shock for me. This made a huge improvement. Also bought a slightly different rate spring for the tracks down south. Why? because the better spring would make the tyres last longer! If a correct spring could save me 1 rear tyre over the course of the nationals - it's paid for itself.

Next big thing was the standard front wasn't up to pushing it at levels. While down there I hit a bump in the track while cornering and it just couldn't cope. just washed out - and i wasn't going anywhere near as the fast as the front runners. Would aftermarket suspension have helped up front? I think so. And it would have saved me $$$ in repair bill (new subframe, new arrow exhaust mid-pipe, fairing repair etc....)

2nd thing was the addition of ohlins springs up front. which helped, then the addition of a ohlins UES (total cost ~$1000) which helped even more (Thanks Kerry). but since i had that crash at manfeild I couldn't really benefit from that much.

What was the biggest cost of running the nationals for me? tyres. by a long way. accomodation down south I stayed at family/friends/campsites and had a ball. so if the aim of the game is to get the cost down, then please allow aftermarket suspension tweaks - I really think it did/would have saved me money. After tyres the next big cost is paying for travel and track time (which leads to needing more tyres ), the actual cost of the bike itself hasn't been the limiting factor for me.

Oh, and i'm one of the lucky ones who's bought a Dave C bike with lots of nice bits on. I know the bike is more than capable of running at the front, the only thing slowing it down is the rider - but I'm there to learn and above all - have fun! I have much more fun on a bike I have confidence in, than pushing a bog stock bike to or past it's limits I have the choice of getting a new bike and paying $$$ to develop it, or just running with what someone else had put the time and money into. The work these guys do will filter down to the rest of the field.

As for getting newer riders into the class. start on a year or 2 old bike with the nice parts added. My old bike with a talented rider on board would be capable of running in the 1:10's - 1:11's at manfeild. Ok you might not quite win, but you'd be up there. Price $10k, I've sunk the money into the bike - someone else could take advantage of it. Or get a new bike and leave it stock. It'll still be there or there abouts in terms of speed, but you will find that in the long term replacing OEM parts with decent aftermarket stuff does save money. Buy that and spend your money on tyres and track time and improve yourself as a rider.

The 600SP rules over here isn't a million miles from stock and it appears to work. Lets leave it that way. It's certainly more affordable than the aussie supersport spec machines.

And above all lets not take anything away from the handful of guys who get out there and race and have talent. Craig, Dennis, Andrew, Jay, James etc. have all showed what's possible and it's not all down to $$$. These guys have serious skill and deserve to be at the front. If you want to be as fast as these fellas, then it will cost you. but mainly in hard work and commitment.

[steveyb]

Rumour or not, it doesn't matter, it speaks to the dedication and effort that any top sportsperson MUST put in if they wish to be at the top.
Dennis wore out a bike (engine) training for this years NZSBK championships, along with the hours of cycling and other training.
It doesn't matter if it is true, the truth will be somewhere there, it is the principle that matters.

Save your engine development money, spend it on suspension and tyres and TRACK TIME!! Then you will develop your talent so that you can beat Dennis, Craig, Andrew etc. Come on youse young-uns, it can't be too hard, Dennis is a Grand-dad after all!!! ;-)

My 2c worth.

Enjoy.

Steve

[codgyoleracer]

Hey Rob, NO where has it been suggested in this thread that AFTERMARKET suspension be banned!

It has been suggested, that we start a class with in a class, to HELP bring on younger 600 riders, for a shit load less money out lay, That is all, nothing sinister in here at all

but hey, I dont care if you lick windows, interfare with farm animals, vote Labour or occasionally shit yourself...you hang in there sun shine, you are dam special

The "class within class" comment makes some sense in both 600 & SBK, - maybe this could be simply called the "privateers class" & the guys n gals run different colour number boards so that joe blo public can tell when one of the 'privateers" is giving the fast fellas a bit of a hurry-up + it allows the media observer to identify & highlight these competitors clearly.

It also deletes the problem of reducing field numbers (that creating a stand-alone new race class might do by stealing riders form other race fields)

A bonus of the "privateer" class also is that the medium/fast to fast-ish club bloke can have a genuine crack at a title (or even a podium finish within a series at his/her local track) - giving the rider & any sponsors a nice warm cosy feeling.

We already see a lot of club racers & young up n comers not entering national events for the reason that they feel tha they are out of their depth , however a privateers class may well get a few back in there. The exposure that these class newbies will get & their resultant lift in race knowledge will with luck allow them to kick-on & take the next step.

As far as machine spec is concerned - then there are plenty of "superstock" classes run around the world to take pointers from. However - the other alternative is that you run a bike under the current rules - but riders cant be distributer backed. (like aussie ?). (Or maybe - one season old machines only qualify, - this gives a real home for these machines to go to.... ????)

Dont ask me how to monitor it though !

Glen W