concur. even if one understands a little more than one word in three, its still illuminating.Originally Posted by White trash
"channellling the Pleideans"
concur. even if one understands a little more than one word in three, its still illuminating.
I thought elections were decided by angry posts on social media. - F5 Dave
now where's some dirt!
Yeah awesome info Robert, thanks for taking the time to share. Will be in contact regarding the info manual.
Weekend cruiser
A slightly more enlightening post, but why the need for secrecy I don't know, post the spec card on here, Ohlins specify the cst at 40c in their publically available literature, what they don't give out is the cst at 100c and hence the viscosity index, many other companies are a lot more open. A post that suggests Ohlins oil is the best out there without being specific about the methodology used to determine that fact is just spam, your telling people they have to have a premium priced product without explaining why there is such a price differential and why there is such a performance advantage.
I would completely disagree that Race Tech know what they are doing with their 20mm stuff, the recommended stacks that they supply are so far out it's not funny, you can make the pistons work but then you can make virtually any piston work.
Forum whore
I do find a rich irony from he who conveniently hides behind a shroud of secrecy and sidesteps any questions re same!
The cst is actually 15cst at 40 celsius ( my mistake) and having checked on my distributor website they indeed do not list the cst rating at 100 celsius on the suspension oil manufacturers spec card ( Statoil ) But there is nothing sinister in that whatsoever and I am sure I could get that information.
What I do know from practical in the field tests is that the flow rate of this oil is very very good at low temps, and we do a lot of racing in this country at low temps so are sensitive to this issue. Equally during the warm summer months it has performed flawlessly.
I dispute that it is always easy to get information ( spec cards), sometimes its a little akin to pulling teeth requesting manufacturers spec cards off the relevant distributors and the people you often talk to have no idea of the real world significance of cst ratings, for example.
Indeed it is an absolute crock that most suspension fluids are sold with an SAE rating, which was designed as rating for motor oils. It can at times be farcical as a reference. For example at lower temps Silkolene 5 weight fork oil has approximately the same flow rating as Maxima 10 weight oil. I personally know of many caught out on that one alone. That is not to say that Silkolene is a bad oil, quite the opposite.
Correct me if Im wrong but to my knowledge Ohlins are the only people to actually place the cst @ 40 degrees celsius rating on their bottles AND ITS A DAMNSITE MORE ACCURATE AN INDICATION OF FLOW RATE THROUGH AN ORIFICE THAN ANY OTHER DEMONSTRABLY MISLEADING RATING. So I challenge your rather weak assertion that Ohlins are more secretive when they place the one piece of information on their packaging that is way more accurate and no-one else does it. You have to request a spec card to get it, and you may recieve it if anyone can be bothered.
At no time was I specific about price but yes it is expensive, sold lots of it because it works!
Yes a lot of the suggested specs re Race Tech can be off but it is also like any valving open to interpretation and lots of experience. The Race Tech rebound / mid valve pistons that I was mostly eluding to were yes miles away on the suggested rebound spec. There was so much high speed rebound that it was crash material. That is why I was praising having a suspension dyno with a large database of runs and with some revalving we got the damping curve oh so close to a well developed Ohlins spec we have been using. And yes the end valving spec was quite different to the Race Tech charts. The rebound port size is to my mind really dialed on this piston as it doesnt place an over reliance on shimming to produce enough high speed rebound force, which often delivers an unwanted compromise in having too much low speed force. That as you know is a major flaw with the Traxxion 20mm rebound pistons, the port size is actually too big.
Sam was able to take this bike to a race track and we made only a couple of very minor adjustments, primarily because I was being fussy.
Forum whore
Hi Robert, thanks for your help at Taupo, the bike was much improved after the suspension rebuild, and yours and Dennis' setup TLC. Now, if you could just give the pilot a similar tune up we'll really be in business....
Seriously, I'm still adapting and learning to deal with the information that I am now receiving which is all part of the learning curve I guess. Having never experienced this sort of change to a previously known bike, in a lot of ways things just feel "different" and I have to process whether it's different in a positive or negative way.
With that in mind, and your comments regarding temperatures, I'm curious about the differences between summer and winter racing setups. I know that generally a winter set-up is "softer" but how is this best accomplished:
a) mostly damping?
b) mostly preload?
c) equal emphasis on both?
d) For the average club racer would you go to the extent of running a lower oil level in winter for less "air spring"?
e) all of the above
Thanks for all the info you've imparted here and around the traps, it's much appreciated. Please don't turn off the suspension information tap man, you've got a great bunch of junkies you are pushing too: we don't know what you are talking about, how you know what you know, what to do with it....all we know is we need it bruddah! Please don't make me go cold turkey....I can't go cold turkey....I just can't.................
Forum whore
Suspension brands and their performance will like any product and the human element of its backup be adjudged on how good or how bad they are. If their performance is either consistently good or consistently bad then at least one knows the true colours and where one stands.
Having on this site posted a great deal about my own understanding and experience with suspension technology it largely remains pleasurable to do so. Genuine people have come to the surface and asked many interesting questions. I have also enjoyed healthy debate with the likes of JD Racing, but in doing so it remains a mystery why the playing field is not levelled so that I can debate on his patch ( wherever that may be ).
Very often questions have come from people with only a small knowledge of suspension but they have sown ideas in my head to the effect ''I must go away and try that'' Every genuine person at whatever level has something to offer.
The ''offerings'' I am indeed very scathing about are those who ejaculate abject nonsense because of either a need to grow up or a perverse pleasure in playing mind games and winding people up. This is also apparent in the political threads because that subject polarises people, but having said that when I am helping people I may make fun of their stated political leanings, but that in no way impinges on the job they get!! Everyone is equal and deserving of some courtesy. Any forum is notorious for nonsense and often downright mischievous posts and yes they will attract those predisposed to verbal ejaculation. I too use expletives but like to maintain some sort of old fashioned etiquette in regulating where it is appropriate not to use such words. Nothing at all snobbish in that, my choice.
I will take heed of a moderators warning and ignore incoming ''spam'' posts with the contempt they truly deserve.
Keep those interesting questions coming guys ( and girls ) As I recall I have only refused to directly answer a question once ( ''Im dying'' damping curves ) due to sensitivity on that subject.
It matters not whether you race a bucket or a Superbike, if I can help solve suspension related problems please dont hesitate to ask.
Forum whore
Thanks for that, winter racing setups need to be a little softer because as you realise there is less temperature and grip. Already we are working on a slightly expanded version of our draft suspension booklet that we handed out at Taupo VMCC. This will give some specific info on sag settings for varying skill levels and track / temperature conditions. We should at least have a temporary addendum produced before the next Manfield VMCC. ( But we will continue to try and keep this manual as brief and focused as possible to preclude it becoming an intimidating textbook! )
In lieu of that, in summer you can turn the throttle earlier coming off the turns and the engine torque allows the suspension to compress just enough to assist grip and optimum chassis attitude coming off the turns, all setup otherwise being ''in the window''. In winter you just cannot apply the throttle as early so you have to soften the rear a little to allow it to ''mechanically transfer'' Similarly in the front you cannot for example brake as late because again there is less available grip, so you have to soften the front setting to allow it to dive the right amount for both correct turn in attitude and for the rider to feel the tyre.
I have no doubt that there will be knowledgable people reading this and casting a critical eye over everything that I have said in case I slip up! But this is a brief explanation that cannot answer all eventualities without turning into a textbook. In truth its a little bit of preload , maybe a few clicks out and often a reduction in air spring. But, as with racing in the summer we are always searching for settings to go faster and faster, so its really try this try that and keep going! Its also just as much about everything being in concert with the tyres and cold shear is always something we fight with most in winter.
We will be at the Manfield VMCC round including the Friday test day and will be going out to dinner somewhere in Fielding on the Friday night. If anyone wishes to join us we will be happy to answer any questions, given the odd beer!
Ta
Funny thing, I have just read through a lot of Roberts posts, and he is a very helpfull bloke. I did find that a lot of stuff went over my feeble head though, so I thought I'd research some of the words and phrases before askin the man and waisting his time.
Being a mechanically minded person, I learn better with visual aids, (read, I only look at the pictures) so I wanted to look at the inside of what is being discussed.
www.ohlins.com folks. It answers a lot of the questions we're asking Robert, and will save him some time if we stop being so lazy. Then he'll have more time to build me a rear shock, and you can all rest easy knowing I'm happy.
See, every body wins.
Tearing Choppa a new A'Hole
Wicked! Must be your shout this round
Vote David Bain for MNZ president
gee wizzz
Robert my mental image is that the entire shim stack flexes up and down with every suspension stroke.
Isn't that a concern from the point of metal fatigue?
To see a life newly created.To watch it grow and prosper. Isn't that the greatest gift a human being can be given?
Forum whore
it wouldn't work if the shims didn't flex...
gee wizzz
ea I know --but Mental image is they are like a stack of reeds from a two stroke --eventually they surely have to fail
To see a life newly created.To watch it grow and prosper. Isn't that the greatest gift a human being can be given?
Ta
They flex when enough fluid preasure builds up to make them, and then from thinnest to thickest as preasure increases. Picture a leaf spring working, same shit.
They would surely become softer and fail over time as does anything, but you do realise your shock still requires servicing after ya buy it right?
gee wizzz
Wonder whgat the service life is
To see a life newly created.To watch it grow and prosper. Isn't that the greatest gift a human being can be given?
Fully qualified Sifter.
Yes.
I can help you there though Bruva.
They're bending.
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