Best N.Z Racetrack

[Sketchy_Racer]

I'm sorry, did I hear right? That sounded like 'faster corners are easier' to me.

No I didn't say the corner got any easier. The actual corner probably becomes harder than a slow one as I feel that you are rewared (or punished if you get it wrong) more for selecting optimum race lines and figuring out entry compromises for exit speed etc and vice versa.

But as I said finding the level of ulitmate traction is easier for the reasons mentioned below

The faster you are travelling the more gyroscopic effect there is from the wheels and the more inherently stable the bike becomes. With the increased gyroscopic effect the bike becomes more difficult to turn but it also becomes much harder to get the bike out of shape.

The first and last lines say it all ...........

It was late and I was tired. I started arrogent, but tried to become more open to discussion.

[malcy25]

If the fast rider has a '10% speed advantage' (that's a percentage, not a fixed speed differential) then he'll gain the same amount of time on the slow rider for every second spent in every corner, regardless of whether the corner is slow or fast.

Obviously, if you spend 5 seconds negotiating a corner you'll gain more time on a slower-cornering rider than if you spent 2 seconds negotiating it. Whether the corner's fast or slow is beside the point.

The question is whether that relative speed advantage goes up or down in fast or slow corners.

Assuming the bikes are relatively equal, a second gained in a slow corner is just as good as a second gained in a fast one.

What I haven't seen anyone comment on yet is whether more seconds are gained in fast corners. Yes, of course more metres are gained; that was my point. But does that actually equate to more seconds off the lap time?

To be honest, I doubt that anyone will be able to answer that definitively. Every rider is different enough that there's probably no hard and fast rule, and the top guys are basically just fast everywhere.



Reading between the lines, you seem to be saying that this is because you spend more time in fast corners.

Except, well, that entirely depends on the track, dunnit?

Oh dear....here we go again...

I did explain it and have already answered most of your questions above, you need to understand some simple physics...that is that...

Time = money or really distance in this case ( unless you live in a parellel universe where you can transport from place to place without taking any time).

10% speed (as in velocity) differential is the fast guy travelling 5 km /h faster in the slow corner. 20km/h hour in the fast corner. 10% of 50km/h is 5 km/h which is a A FIXED amount

Travelling at a faster speed means they are getting away (in my universe!)

Looking at the maths...

IF they entered the corner a the same time....
On the slow corner the fast rider would come out 3m ahead, probably less than 2/10's sec.
On the fast corner, the fast rider would come out of the corner 27m metres ahead. At 200km/h that is approx half a second he has gained. IN ONE CORNER. Which he will carry to the next corner (in my happy little world would be another fast corner so I can make another 27m or 1/2 sec gap)

Fuck I should have been a physics teacher.

Jrandom:"Assuming the bikes are relatively equal, a second gained in a slow corner is just as good as a second gained in a fast one" yes, true. But gaining 1 second on a slow corner in the scenario above would require you to travel at 108km/h (average!) around a hairpin that every is travelling at at 50 near their limit! Not really achievable...

Sketchy: "I believe that the faster a corner is, the easier it is to get to the ultimate level of traction a bike has to offer,

Err, no opposite infact - the mechanical advantage is inverse ie force over loading traction is generally harder at high speed. Is easier to break traction at slow speeds than high speeds with power on, or turning and overloading on brakes.

Sketchy: "and that is why lines and planning exits etc and looking at the bigger picture become more important in corners like that. On slower ones, when you reach the maximum traction avaliable, it tends to snap a lot quicker and violently." yes. You just got the traction/speed relationship above wrong, but on the right track.

What people are missing here is that fast corners are not twist grip racing as skunk suggested. It takes a huge amount of bottle and skill to get the entry right on a fast corner, it's bloody hard to work up to the limit (if there is one), people's natural reaction is to chicken, get off the throttle and / or tune in too soon. The next thig is massive lean angle at high speed for a long time.

Sketchy: "No I didn't say the corner got any easier. The actual corner probably becomes harder than a slow one as I feel that you are rewared (or punished if you get it wrong) more for selecting optimum race lines and figuring out entry compromises for exit speed etc and vice versa. "
Bang on mate!

How many times have we all said, I'll do this corner flat in top or whatever, and then rolled it off....

Time for dinner. Class over!

Have fun gents

[sinfull]

Taupo it is !!!! !

[Mikkel]

Oh dear.....lots to learn still I see

Sorry, I must have missed the sign which says this forum is only for slow riders who only like slow corners and can't get their knee down!

A little tip - throttle twist racing is a thing called drag racing, but lets not confuse things right now as we have lots to learn still.

I did have a long diatribe formed, but then I remembered an old line - Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Now onto Jrandoms....

No the first thing you have to learn on this forum is that people don't give a fuck about numbers and equations - just take my word for it.

Good shot at arrogance - I dare say I could do that bit better as well.

Above mentioned diatribe accompanied by a few random numbers based on some thought-up scenario which may or may not hold any real relevance.

Evening gents!

Can we agree that it doesn't actually matter how fast you go around a corner in racing? As long as you are faster than the other guys of course.

There are an infinite (practically, on the macro-scale. I am familiar with quantum mechanics, but let's ignore that for now) number of lines you can take around a corner. That goes for slow and fast corners alike.

Oh dear....here we go again...

I did explain it and have already answered most of your questions above, you need to understand some simple physics...that is that...

Mmmm, I like how you say simple physics. At least you didn't say basic or fundamental.

Time = money or really distance in this case ( unless you live in a parellel universe where you can transport from place to place without taking any time).

That was deep - can I quote you again later?

10% speed (as in velocity) differential is the fast guy travelling 5 km /h faster in the slow corner. 20km/h hour in the fast corner. 10% of 50km/h is 5 km/h which is a A FIXED amount

I don't know why you assume that the speed differential necessarily will be a percentage. There's no reason why the speed difference between the faster and the slower rider couldn't be 5 km/h or 20 km/h in both cases.

Travelling at a faster speed means they are getting away (in my universe!)

Depends upon the direction.

Looking at the maths...

IF they entered the corner a the same time....
On the slow corner the fast rider would come out 3m ahead, probably less than 2/10's sec.
On the fast corner, the fast rider would come out of the corner 27m metres ahead. At 200km/h that is approx half a second he has gained. IN ONE CORNER. Which he will carry to the next corner (in my happy little world would be another fast corner so I can make another 27m or 1/2 sec gap)

I can't see any maths here. All I can see are a few random numbers based on unexplained assumptions.

Fuck I should have been a physics teacher.

Considering the ineptitude of most physics teachers I think you would indeed have fitted in quite well.

Jrandom:"Assuming the bikes are relatively equal, a second gained in a slow corner is just as good as a second gained in a fast one" yes, true. But

No BUT - one second is one second. Full stop. It doesn't matter where you gain it. In racing you'll be racing your peers - as such there are no corners on which you could gain an entire second unless your competitor ran off the track. Thus, pointing out the infeasibility of gaining a second on a hairpin is a waste of time.

Err, no opposite infact - the mechanical advantage is inverse ie force over loading traction is generally harder at high speed. Is easier to break traction at slow speeds than high speeds with power on, or turning and overloading on brakes.

Your statement lacks clarity. The reason why you more easily loose traction at lower speeds is simply due to the following relation (hold on, here comes an actual equation):

P = F*v (Power equals Force times velocity) (If you want the entire thing taking torque, tyre radii and rotational momentum into account I can reference you a good book on classical mechanics)

If you double your speed you'll have half the amount of force put into the ground. As such (unless you possess the mother of all RAM-air systems and have twice the power at twice the speed) you'll be less likely to spin your tyre on a fast corner than on a slow one.

This basically what you said, I suppose, but then you are not in disagreement with Sketchy. Of course getting the corner right is a different thing and your grey matter have to work much faster to process the information when you're traveling at twice the speed.

Time for dinner. Class over!

Have fun gents

Thanks, I had fun.

[brads]

Geez guys,enough with all the scientific mumbo jumbo,,best track??
LEVELS

[puddytat]

[malcy25]

Mikkel

Glad to see that some one else around here has an education.

Arrogance: Hmm, I place a short polite post (#8 & #18) about why I think a track is my favourite, I get arrogant posts back. Fairs fair I reckon to now shoot from the hip. By the way don't assume my low post count doesn't mean I haven't been around forums for years.

"simple physics" - I could have said simple maths. Whatever. I tend to use the term physics when a body is in motion.

Quoting: I like how you quote me (the second quote in your last post), but edit the quote inserting your own words and removig most if not all of mine. That's very misleading and dare I say it, offensive as it can only be by design.

"some thought-up scenario" I'm offended (and amused you haven't even read the whole thread). Refer post # 32. I ref examples of two corners at Puke for the scenario and also make ref that the numbers are not totally accurate but effectively close enough to work with (+ or minus 5 km/h is not going to change it fundamentally). I don't have a speedo on my race bike sorry, but I have a good idea of what speeds are being done where and the ones quoted are close enough for this.

Numbers and Equations: I regularly make fact based decisons not those based emotions, half truths, supposition or hearsay. Objective truth is the best way of getting FACTS across. Too many people work in the subjective to their detriment and some of the stuff being quoted in other posts on this topic is totally subjective and not based on fact or even close to reality. Facts are proof. Subjective words are just words.

Misquoting Jack Nicholson, (if) You can't handle the truth....not my problem!

"I don't know why you assume that the speed differential necessarily will be a percentage" Yep, doesn't matter but will ultimately prove the same result on "go fast in fast corners". However I used a % on the simple basis that say a good rider rode through the critical part of a corner at a higher level and using a 10% was a simple way of extrapolating their skill creating a higher speed over the "average" rider in the assumption.

"Random numbers based on unexplained assumptions": Again, my previous post (#32) provides the assumptions. Best you go back and read it. It provides enough information for anyone with calculator and a finger to press the numbers to confirm. By the way, to convert km/h into metres per second: times the km/h figure by 1000 and then divide that result by 3600).

Apologies though, I did round things to full metres and nearest 10th of second.

"No BUT - one second is one second. Full stop. It doesn't matter where you gain it. In racing you'll be racing your peers - as such there are no corners on which you could gain an entire second unless your competitor ran off the track. Thus, pointing out the infeasibility of gaining a second on a hairpin is a waste of time."

Actually 1) "Yes, but" As I proved using FACTS, it is bloody hard (basically unfeasible)to make up one second in a slow corner and reality is you make little ground (the example being .2 sec or 3 metres). BUT you can make up a lot more time in a fast corner. The numbers used are approximates but the end result would provide the same output with regards to the answer proving that you make little ground on another rider by trying to fast in a slow corner vs going fast in a fast corner. 2) I know of riders who have entered t1 at Puke and had no one in sight and found a rider half way around - that would mean they would have gained over 1 sec because of the length of the preceeding straight...

"Your statement lacks clarity." Apologies sir, mark me down. I was hungry and my blood sugar was low. I was in a hurry, my dog eat my lunch and my home work, the bus broke down. AS I have heard at various times. Build a bridge. get over it.

"forum is that people don't give a fuck about numbers and equations "
1) Maybe they should. Refer previous comments about fact based decisions.
2) maybe they do cos they all seem keen on the numbers that relate to their bikes, cc, HP, 1/4 mile, weight etc.

"Can we agree that it doesn't actually matter how fast you go around a corner in racing? As long as you are faster than the other guys of course." Sure, why not as it the truth. But lets put some science behind it for clarity so people can understand why some riders have a better lap time rather than fumbling around. However, sadly there is a misaprehension that you gain as much by trying to go hard on slow corner as as you do by going hard on fast corners. I have more than adequately proven that this is not the case.

"Quote: Originally Posted by malcy25
Travelling at a faster speed means they are getting away (in my universe!)
Depends upon the direction." Sorry, I made the assumption that as we were talking racing we were all going the same direction.

"That was deep - can I quote you again later?" Sure, why not fill your boots, you can use it for free even.

"as such there are no corners on which you could gain an entire second" are you so sure? I know of some long corners....reality is that yes, that is probably the truth that in NZ there are few corners you could gain a second - though T1 at Puke, Teretonga both have some long or fast sweepers and given enough speed difference betwen a fast and slow rider, (say 40km/h at T1 at Puke example, if you backsolve my results, you would find you would gain 1 second). But nowhere did I say there were.

Rather I was responding to Jrandom's comment about gaining a second and showing what would need to be done in the example to gain one second (proving it wasn't feasible) and further reinforcing that trying to make big time on slow corners is pointless.

Frankly we could sit here and pick apart each other's arguements for days, but I have more fulfilling things to do than sit in front of a computer. No doubt you'll have another crack at my responses above. Do I care? Not really, will I bother to read it, probably not as this will just continue to spiral around some tiny points of order and attempted bitch slapping and be a totally pointless exercise.

Am I a great racer? no but I'm no novice either (there's a NZ GP cup in chch with my name on it). I've been around long enough, read, discussed and listened a lot over the years and absorbed some great information from some very smart racers. I've applied this as best that I can and as such I've developed a good understanding of what does and doesn't work in the real world. It amuses me watching some of the hand me down chinese whispers on forums get passed around as fact, when in reality it is fiction. Then when you do provide the facts reinforced with real word experience or examples it gets poo pooed because people are so cocked up. The fun of forums I guess!

Ah well, such is life and it really is not my problem if people want to throw themselves on the ground trying to go fast on slow corners. As long as they don't take me with them.

Puke still counts over Taupo though. But I did love Baypark despite the sand, the three hairpins and falling off there on my last real ride. Turn one was sex and made up for the crappy rest. I made up at least one second on my lap times there just in that corner alone....just by concentrating on line and entry speed. I made another second TOTAL on the other three corners combined....

Thread hijack over.

Evening folks!

[codgyoleracer]

In Order: Levels, Teretonga, Ruapuna, Pukekohe, Manfield, Taupo

[scrivy]

For a dumb arsed hasbeen sidecar driver, can you two mathmaticians tell me:
If I twist the throttle harder around faster corners, and brake later into corners and put the power on earlier coming out of corners, will I go faster???
I need to know, 'cause I'm getting my arse kicked by LCR sidecars.........

BTW.... Taupo all the way.... heaps of run off (good for practicing wet weather racing), lovely continual corners (I don't like drag racing), and enough corners to go hard under brakes!!

[Shaun P]

Frankly we could sit here and pick apart each other's arguements for days, but I have more fulfilling things to do than sit in front of a computer.

r u sure? would of taken me a whole year to write that

[Mikkel]

Yada yada yada...

The reason I abbreviated your post was simply because my post was getting long enough as it was - and while I responded to that particular bit of your post it didn't actually contain anything of merit, which was the point of my assertion in the first place. If you find that offensive, too bad - follow your own advice: "build a bridge and get over it".

My point, which you may have missed, was simply that sitting down and doing theoretical calculations without stipulating clearly what assumptions they are based upon is just a waste of time. There is nothing to be gained or learned from it. Certainly, one would be able to calculate the optimal line around a race track - if you have the track for yourself mind. Knowing what that line is wouldn't help you much with anything besides setting a new lap record.

I am not a racer - but I understand the following: if you're going 10% faster around a race track than somebody else - then you are not racing them, you're just passing them. Further more - if you go 10% faster then you'll cut the time you take to travel a certain distance to 10/11 of the original time... As such your gain will become larger the longer time/distance you are doing so, nothing new in that.
You propose that pushing hard on slow corners is a wasted effort - if you want to win a serious race you can not afford not to push hard all the time. At the end of the day whoever can push the hardest without pushing that little bit too hard is the one who is going to win.

What I like about your posts is the fact that you present your "calculations" as if they were technical, insightful, correct and interesting. Unfortunately they are neither or those things. However, add in your cocky attitude and it becomes a bloody good joke - thank you for the laugh

Oh, and if you think anyone gives a fuck about your post count - you're wrong about that too.

Finally, I don't have any issues whether people understand physics on a technical level or not - I do have a problem with those who pretend they do.

[roogazza]

In Order: Levels, Teretonga, Ruapuna, Pukekohe, Manfield, Taupo

That'd be my order Glen. I was surprised to see how highly Taupo scored but that probably has a lot to do with KB membership . Nearly all my 'old fart' mates, pick Levels. Gaz.

[codgyoleracer]

That'd be my order Glen. I was surprised to see how highly Taupo scored but that probably has a lot to do with KB membership . Nearly all my 'old fart' mates, pick Levels. Gaz.

Oh o, Ime officialy an old fart then.......... :-) , Hopefully Hampton Downs goes to the front of the list !

[speedracerjimmy]

levels is my pick.

[jrandom]

That'd be my order Glen. I was surprised to see how highly Taupo scored but that probably has a lot to do with KB membership .

Well, yeah, you can hardly expect those of us who've only ever ridden NI tracks to refrain from voting and skewing the results.