Forum whore
You mean like Britten? There was some kiwi guy I was told that made a fast 125 but the rules changed and it was made illegal. I'm pretty sure he wasn't a major manufacturer. You mean stuff like that? Doesn't really fit in with the theme of it being the pinnacle of bike development and riders like people mention a lot here.Originally Posted by Biggles08
Geriatric hoon
Ahhh 1959 I remember it well, 125s reportedly made like watches. Could have been a warning there for someone, but never mind it's too late now...
"Moto GP" though, only started in 2002.
Last edited by pritch; 10th January 2009 at 18:23. Reason: clarity... or not
There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop
Forum whore
It's well know that Honda is the biggest voice on the committee of manufacturers that sets the technical rules. Most of the other manufacturers bow to them in the end. Cleve has lived there from memory so you'd understand the Japanese mentality around "pecking order".
I guess for wider context go back a few years (20-30)
Honda hates 2 strokes, they love 4 strokes. The only built the NS and then NSR because the 4 stroke NR500 V4 wannabe V8 (aka the never ready) was shite. The NS500 that Spencer rode in 82, then won the title in 83 was the first real factory 2 stroke GP bike they built (apart from MT125R's which is a roadracer CR125 basically)
Honda went to the IOM on 1959 with a couple 125's . They finally got into the 500 class in 1966, then 67 after migrating through 50's250 and 350 classes. Bailed before 68 because it got too expensive and left hailwood contracted and not allowed to ride in the world Championships. Privateers in 500 on the podium were basically long gone by the mid 50's (apart from sporadic stuff through the late 60's and early 70's when it was MV and esessntially no one else). In the mid 50's Gilera, MV had 4 cylinder 500's, Guzzi had the V8. The privateer had a 500 Single Manx that was 20 mph down...
Most of the 500's that the privateers could get were either totally out paced (500 single) or totally unreliable (500 Linto's and the like), until Kawasaki released the H1R 500 in 1970. Ginger Malloy was about the fastest consistently on those . Englishman Dave Symmonds eventually won a GP on one the year or so later. But wre still performance limited against the MV. ie fuel useage was horrendous and required a mid race stop.
Yamaha arrived back on the scene in 73 with Saarinen and Hideo Kanaya and started smoking Ago and Read on the MV's with a YZR500, across the frame 4 cylinder 2 stroke. That is until Saarinen got killed in the 250 race at Monza along with Pasolini.
Ago jumped ship in 74 and then won the championship (first 2 stroke champion in 500's) in 75.
Suzuki joined in properly about then with the first RG500 adfter running TR500 twins.
And on it went....4 strokes dissapeared in short order. Why? Cos they couldn't compete capacity for Capacity in 500GP which is what turned into Motogp in 2001/2002.
Honda had been pushing from when Doohan was spanking everyone to get 4 strokes back in. Because they don't like 2 strokes and felt it was a dead end development wise. They finally beat everyone down and guess what is happening....Something that was predicted in the press 8-9 years ago. That it would get so expensive it would implode.
Do a google on "what Honda Wants, Honda gets" - itss quite interesting reading some of the comments on the 'net.
Forum whore
Forgot to say the went from 30 bikes on the grid with semo privateer NSV500 Honda twins, YZR500 ROC and Harris's, Swissauto's etc for the tail enders to 17 Motogp bikes. Yep, progress!!
They have seen this and yet they still pushed through the 250 to 600 MotoGP rule change. Madness I say!
Forum whore
Nope!
First 500GP (which became MotoGP) W/c champion was Les Graham on a AJS "porcupine" which was a factory backed prototype. Every rider who has won it since in the subsequent 49 years or so was a factory backed rider including Geoff Duke on the Norton. Look at the list after that - no way you could buy any of those bikes.
http://www.motorsportsetc.com/champs/gp500.htm
Even before the formalisation of the world championships in 1949, you still had the manufacturers right across it with things like Supercharged BMW's in the fray.
IIRC the non production rule was bought in only to keep WSBK happy in these commercial times and only when MotoGP went 4 stroke as the FIM had sold off the rights to Flamini to SBK and Flamini wanted to make sure it wasn't full of hotted up R1's etc. Which is where peter Clifford's WCM team came unstuck.
At various times throuigh the whole 500GP history prior to name and rule change to MotoGP, there have been a number of bikes used that had production bike origins including some 500 Triumph based machinery, H1R Kawasaki used the same cases as the street bike, as did all the 351cc Yamaha overbored TZ350's which used RD cases. Norton was trying to develop a twin called the Domiracer which used the 500 cc Dominator engine as the basis. Matchless G45 (was never very successful) was based on the I think the G9 street bike.
Forum whore
It's not that I want to push my post count up, but...!
The correlation to what is happening now and what happened in the late 60's is quite interesting.
Honda bailed end of 67 and basically killed Hailwood's career cos he was contracted and couldn't ride.
Yamaha went on for another year with Read and Ivy,then baled.
Up until then the development battle was fiersome. Look at some of the bikes they built
Honda 5 cylinder 125 that did 22,000 rpm. 250 and 297cc 6's that did 17-18k rpm. a 90HP 4 cylinder 500. 2 cylinder 50's with caliper brakes like a push bike.
Suzuki and Yamaha built V4 125 and 250 strokes (my god!). 50's and 125 with up to 14 speeds.
This all fell on itself in the and as history shows. But what was interesting was the subsequent rules that came in.
50's 1 cylinder (from memory and then became 80cc then removed)
125's 1 or 2 cylinder (until about 88' then 1 cylinder only)
250's max 2 cyl
350 max 4 cylinder (removed the class after 82)
500 max 4 cylinder
max 6 speeds on all classes.
This slowed the HP / development race for a few years, but the horse had bolted and started only returning 4-6 years later.
Wonder what fast measures happen to keep everyone else in?
Forum whore
To be fair the 4 stroke era that we are emerging into has to be as much driven by relevancy as it is by Honda disliking 2 strokes. The manufacturers surely want some returns they can apply to their production bikes rather than just a flag waving exercise. In this day and age I reckon Honda would build steam powered bikes if there was a monetary or developmental return from it.
Not that even 250 2 strokes are cheap either. From a an article Denill highlighted in the MotoGP thread "The LE (satellite spec) Gilera which Marco Simoncelli started the 2008 season in 250s cost around 300,000 euros. The RSA (factory spec) version of the same bike he finished the season on cost 1,250,000 euros for the season". That's with cost saving regulations in place that don't apply to the MotoGP bikes.
This article also suggests that making it all hideously expensive is exactly the way the factories want it, meaning they are basically left to fight it out amongst themselves rather than having a plethora of private teams potentially embarrassing them. All fine and dandy while the worlds economy and bike sales are in a healthy state, but it seriously threatens the viability of the series when the economy turns to custard.
Forum whore
Slowpoke
Yep, good comments.
Truth be told, the 500GP bikes as much as I loved, them, had pretty well much reached stagnation point. I just think they threw out the baby with the bath water when they went 4 stroke.
Scooter boy
It was pounds and it was 30mill. Hopefully more money for superbike teams in the USA, Japan, us in the UK and birdy's lot in worlds. Birdy has put together a pretty awesome team for this year with full factory showa and magnetti marelli.
Hardcore Biker
Back to Kawasaki leaving...
Seems OJ is testing in OZ...
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sp.../?R=EPI-105485
Forum whore
WTF??? My head hurts...
Never, never give in.
It's OK to disagree with me. I can't force you to be right.
The Ragin Cajun
article i read this morning donra will sue kawasaki if they do not race this year, and have made statments, they race this year they will let them out of racing in 2010-2011.
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/moto...sting_now.html
Curmudgeon
There was a 750 class for a coupla years wasn't there?
Hardcore Biker
That's a good deal that... Race this year and get 'let off' for the next two. Surely it'll work out cheaper in the long run, that's of course, if they can afford it in the short term...
They are testing, which is a good sign...
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