Tapered steering head bearings -- worth it?

**xwhatsit** · 14th May 2008, 16:05

I'm not going to be that fussed about looking for a cheap way to get the taper rollers -- David Silver does a kit as I mentioned earlier, it doesn't some inordinately expensive. I need some other bits too, so combined shipping, it'll work out cheap as chips.

Anyway, the bike needs more pressing work after putting my hand through the tank.

BTW: The RZ250 comment was about handling, not taper vs. balls -- I'm not worried about improving handling that much -- if I really wanted to do the whole knee-down thing I'd buy an RZ250

**TygerTung** · 14th May 2008, 18:49

What did you do to the bike?!?!!

**tychver** · 3rd July 2008, 22:50

This is a bit of a thread hijack, but what are the forks like on your CB250RS'?

Mine feel really soft (not that I really have much experience to compare them to), and I had a chat with a guy who collects and races 70s suzuki twins and he also thought they felt a bit soft.

Are they always this soft? Did you modify yours for racing TygerTung? Stiffer springs?

The forks on mine were rebuilt 5 years ago, so I think they may be in decent condition, but I have no idea about the oil level. Sailed through it's WOF though

Oh, and while I'm at it, has anyone sized up any brake or fork upgrade options for these little babies?

**Robert Taylor** · 5th July 2008, 11:02

Originally Posted by Kickaha

I haven't ever found a noticable difference in handling converting bikes to tapered rollers and I have done a few, most sets from a bike shop were about $80

The old bearing races are easy to get out with a long drift, the bearing races from tapered rollers on the other hand are quite often a prize prick to remove

I tend to agree and certainly taper roller bearings are a lot less tolerant / a lot more finicky re setup.
The trend in recent years re purchase of headrace bearing sets ( and wheel bearing / swingarm / suspension bushings ) has been who is cheapest? Id be interested to hear in real terms what the longevity of these kits is like as I personally am a little suspect of their quality. Cheapness most often comes at a price.

**Ocean1** · 5th July 2008, 12:36

Originally Posted by FROSTY

HMM--Been thinking about this whilst tinkering in the gargre.
If you have a spare frame why not measure up the dimensions of the factory bearings.
The idea being to get a tapered roller bearing with same height and same ID possibly slightly bigger OD. Then get the outer race machined to the correct OD.In the perfect world youll find a bearing at saeco or auckland bearings which is exactly what you want/need -and I bet heaps cheaper than 50 odd bucs

Those bearing outers will be fookin' hard, and you're more likely to find nominal OD taper rollers to match the existing bore.

Originally Posted by Robert Taylor

I tend to agree and certainly taper roller bearings are a lot less tolerant / a lot more finicky re setup.
The trend in recent years re purchase of headrace bearing sets ( and wheel bearing / swingarm / suspension bushings ) has been who is cheapest? Id be interested to hear in real terms what the longevity of these kits is like as I personally am a little suspect of their quality. Cheapness most often comes at a price.

I've very rarely come across rolling element bearings of noticeably low quaility, and in the case of taper rollers for that application they're way over-spec'd. By far the most common cause of failure is contamination. Almost every headstock bearing failure I've encountered has been caused by corrosion, but then I used to get wet lots...

**Wired1** · 26th July 2008, 17:06

I bought a couple of sets of "All balls" taper steering stem bearings for my SR400 and TT500. The original races on the SR were a bit like the surface of the moon so I figured I may as well go for the taper rollers. Anyway, they arrived the other day and when I opened up the packet I found two bearings and two seals but no indication of what goes where. Why don't they include instructions or even a bloody picture? Their website is even less help.

Now I can see which bearing is the top one and which seal goes with which bearing, but I just want to be sure I put them in the right order and the right way up. I figure the seal goes on first to keep the dust out of the bottom bearing, then the bottom bearing pointing up (the load will be downward right?). The top bearing - should this be pointing down for frame loading? ie both bearings pointing toward each other? and then the top seal is my guess.
I know it's a dumb question but they cost a fair amount and I'll be pissed off if I bugger them up.

**Ocean1** · 26th July 2008, 17:36

Correct, btm seal, btm bearing with small-end-of-taper upwards, top bearing with small-end-of-taper down, top seal.

Sometimes for taper rollers there's a different washer under the nut... Did they give you a torque for the nut?

**Wired1** · 26th July 2008, 17:43

No torque setting info included - any ideas? otherwise I'll just nip it up until it strips then back half a turn.
The website www.goallballs.com gives the figure of 28-30 foot-pounds for the Honda one so I'll go with that I guess.

**Ocean1** · 26th July 2008, 18:08

Sounds a tad high but probably safe.

Get the front wheel off the ground and feel the steering resistance, should be noticable but not more than a one-finger push/pull at the grip.
Important to check it again after a good ride.

Oh, grease, fill the whole head cavity with a good quality water-resistant grease befor you fit the top bearing.

**xwhatsit** · 2nd March 2009, 13:44

So anyway I'm finally getting around to buying this stuff. I've been getting by with tightening up the old worn ones but they're pretty shagged and I need to get on with it.

The kit is called SSH750. Cheapest I've found is David Silver Spares, even though they just put the price up to 27 pounds -- bastards! So I'll probably order from them.

But I wondered, upon doing a quick Google for `SSH750', that given that the specs of the bearings are all over the place, do I have enough information to go down to Saeco et al and give them these numbers and they can give me what I need?

SSH750* 26 x 48.5 x 15.2mm 30 x 50 x 14.4mm

Actually on another site I got this:

SSH750 Upper 48.5x26x15mm Lower 50x30x14.5mm

Slightly different but is it close enough (15.2mm vs 15mm, 14.5mm vs 14.4mm)?

The other thing is, either way, these don't come with the bottom dust seal usually do they. I've heard people referring to reusing the existing seal but I dunno if it'll be OK after a quarter of a century. Will this be a standard sort of seal I can pick up from other places? Will the official Honda seal (providing I can get it) work with tapered bearings considering the original bearings are ball bearings?

Sorry for all the silly questions, I find it a bit confusing, haven't really delved inside that area of my bike before.

Oh yeah, I'm going to do the swingarm bushings while I'm at it. They're going to be a bitch to get out, aren't they

**Wired1** · 2nd March 2009, 15:44

Yes the swing arm bearings or bushes are a bitch to get out. I've done both the roller ones and the straight plastic or nylon type and they all suck majorly if there has been any water in there. I've also done a few sets of steering head tapered rollers on my SR400 and an XV750 and there isn't any where else to get them. I've got a mate who works at SKF and they can't get an equivalent so you're probably buggered. As a rule I buy from the UK before the US because the shipping is way cheaper. Not sure why, but it's a fraction of the cost to send something to the US than to receive something from there - bastards.

**Ocean1** · 2nd March 2009, 16:48

Originally Posted by xwhatsit

do I have enough information to go down to Saeco et al and give them these numbers and they can give me what I need?

SSH750* 26 x 48.5 x 15.2mm 30 x 50 x 14.4mm

Actually on another site I got this:

SSH750 Upper 48.5x26x15mm Lower 50x30x14.5mm

Slightly different but is it close enough (15.2mm vs 15mm, 14.5mm vs 14.4mm)?

Worth a try. I can check tomorrow for you to see if they're a common spec' or not but either Saeco or SKF could tell you over the phone from those dimensions.

And the discrepancies are in thickness, a few degrees more or less turn on the nut'll deal with it.

Originally Posted by xwhatsit

Will this be a standard sort of seal I can pick up from other places? Will the official Honda seal (providing I can get it) work with tapered bearings considering the original bearings are ball bearings?

Probably, get the OD/ID/thickness and ask the bearing dudes, unlikely to be so weird as to be impossible to get.

**xwhatsit** · 2nd March 2009, 21:12

Originally Posted by Wired1

Yes the swing arm bearings or bushes are a bitch to get out. I've done both the roller ones and the straight plastic or nylon type and they all suck majorly if there has been any water in there. I've also done a few sets of steering head tapered rollers on my SR400 and an XV750 and there isn't any where else to get them. I've got a mate who works at SKF and they can't get an equivalent so you're probably buggered. As a rule I buy from the UK before the US because the shipping is way cheaper. Not sure why, but it's a fraction of the cost to send something to the US than to receive something from there - bastards.

Oh right -- that's what I suspected but not what I wanted to hear haha. I don't have any play in them yet (that I can see with my eye at least), but I figured it'd probably be better to do them before there is any trouble with them which would be a result of water or crap being in there.

Yes, shipping from David Silver seems to be very cheap, at least according to Magua who's bought a lot of bits for his CB400N.

Originally Posted by Ocean1

Worth a try. I can check tomorrow for you to see if they're a common spec' or not but either Saeco or SKF could tell you over the phone from those dimensions.

And the discrepancies are in thickness, a few degrees more or less turn on the nut'll deal with it.

Probably, get the OD/ID/thickness and ask the bearing dudes, unlikely to be so weird as to be impossible to get.

I'll give them a call then if that's all the numbers I need. However on looking at pictures like this: http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=1503 it seems there's some sort of washer as well. Hah. Some sort of spacer perhaps? As I have no numbers maybe I'm just better off buying the kit

Thanks for all the advice and help.

**Ocean1** · 2nd March 2009, 21:25

Originally Posted by xwhatsit

I'll give them a call then if that's all the numbers I need. However on looking at pictures like this: http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=1503 it seems there's some sort of washer as well. Hah. Some sort of spacer perhaps? As I have no numbers maybe I'm just better off buying the kit

Thanks for all the advice and help.

Bearing dudes will tell you what the bearing designation is for those dimensions, if they've got 'em. The washer's just that, needed to spread the load over the top bearing inner top face. Possibly also to account for differences in overall dimensions between the taper rollers and the OE units.

The kit price ain't bad but I'd expect local bearing dude to do better if he's got them on the shelf. Easy enough to make the washer if the bearings turn out to be available locally.