Pro-Twin discussion

[Robert Taylor]

Pro Twin is still slow to get going regettably. It really has the potential to revitalise the both the club and national scene with predominantly young, developing riders. We all all want that....don't we?
I have huge respect for Robert taylor, but I hope his comments don't discourage riders into thinking you need very expensive suspension parts and Robert on "speed dial" to get a look in. It's worth tempering this by reminding readers that the Ruapuna round was won, two race wins and including the GP by Patrick Jones. This bike owes him less than 5 grand. It started as a $2000 wreck in Auckland (anyone could have bought it). No new parts, all straightened with a bit of ingenuity. A $400 "nobody" shock off trademe, the emulators, dampers, spacers and springs all home made. Even the fork oil was home made, a brew of ATF and 20/50 engine oil from the Warehouse.
By all means get the best, but remember what the class is really for, getting young riders out there. The low spec bikes of Carl Morgan and Patrick this year show it still "can be done".

The main risk to Pro Twin is cheating. SVR is right, looking at a lot of bikes there is obvious "no compliances" all over them. Different brakes, subframes
not to mention the apparent horsepower differences. It was noticeable, no way can it explained away by "better drive / lighter rider" This year is over, I just hope next year there is tighter tech control to prevent these suspicions
false or not, ruining the freindships, respect and support you hope to see between the riders.

No, no intention of discouragement whatsoever. Human nature is such that those with the means ( or often the committment and a way of finding the means ) will aspire to having the best quality kit. We in fact have options for all budgets from Race Tech respecs to full blown WSBK technology.
Right now we are checking copyright protection on emulators because another party that I know of has raided the same intellectual property for some volume. That the manufacturer ( who spent thousands of development hours and investment ) takes a VERY dim view of. Piracy is 7% of the worlds economic turnover and it is no surprise that companies ( such as for example Ohlins ) have a full time staff member sniffing out such acts.
Just imagine how much faster the rider could have been with even better kit, aided by local track knowledge. A championship is about being consistently near the top at all rounds, precisely why Sam won.

[svr]

The main risk to Pro Twin is cheating

No, it's people not turning up to race

[White trash]

No, it's people not turning up to race

A very good point.

I think if I was to race in this class, I would be particularly welcoming of mandatory "Tech inspections" after each National round.

Say, for example, the three top placing bikes and two randomly chosen from the field tech inspected immediately at the close of the final race. That should scare away the people that would be inclined to bend the rule book (and I'm not saying there nesescarily is anyone) and ensure a perfectly flat playing field.

I think alot of racers, especially new comers as in the pro twins class, are reluctant to lodge a formal protest when they believe something to be amiss for fear of being labeled a cry baby. Such a procedure would alleviate this stress

[slowpoke]

No, it's people not turning up to race

Yup.

People get too caught up in "I haven't got this widget" or "so and so's got a titanium grease nipple" when most of the time they wouldn't know what to do with it if they had it.

Unless something is actually limiting your lap time there's no point in upgrading it. It takes a Pete Tanner type skill to be able to ride to the limits of an Aprilia RSV Factory, therefore he could see a change in laptimes when the limits were changed. I on the other hand, along with most other racers, should just concentrate on getting closer to those limits in the first place rather than improving a bike they aren't yet maximising.

Seriously, what effect does an aftermarket subframe (for example) really have on your laptimes? There's more weight difference involved with a decision about having a pre or post race crap, so why throw the toys outta the cot?

Edit: Jimmy's slipped in a swifty while I've been pecking away. Serious tech inspections are an ugly can o' worms I reckon. Where do you stop? Do we pull forks apart to check Robert hasn't had his sticky fingers somewhere he shouldn't have? Pull engines apart? Who's gonna do that and pay for reassembly? In theory, yes there should be some checks and balances involved, given human nature, but in practice the solution could be worse than the problem.

[Benk]

I on the other hand, along with most other racers, should just concentrate on getting closer to those limits in the first place rather than improving a bike they aren't yet maximising.

A great point. One which can easily be lost in the hype.

[White trash]

Edit: Jimmy's slipped in a swifty while I've been pecking away. Serious tech inspections are an ugly can o' worms I reckon. Where do you stop? Do we pull forks apart to check Robert hasn't had his sticky fingers somewhere he shouldn't have? Pull engines apart? Who's gonna do that and pay for reassembly? In theory, yes there should be some checks and balances involved, given human nature, but in practice the solution could be worse than the problem.

Gotta be quick Spud, we're either fast, or we're last

Agree completely, I'm not talking tear downs unless a protest is lodged that requires one. Simply a quick once over, lift the tank, make sure everything's as it should. Emission bullshit is still on the exhaust (which Garry's already pointed out should be but isn't on almost all the bikes, maybe scrap that rule) and that sort of thing.

[Deano]

It was noticeable, no way can it explained away by "better drive / lighter rider" .

I have chased another pro twin SV out of the sweeper at Manfeild (never normally got near him before that)

I know I got on the gas before he did cause I nearly ran into the back of him, yet he still pulled away - I couldn't even draught him.

I put it down to him being lighter and possibly more HP. I don't know whether his cams have been dialled in as that is about the only thing left for me to do and still stay within the rules.

[Deano]

Whereabouts should the emmission crap be located on the zorst ?

I will have to check mine. I bought it as is and haven't removed it myself but.....

[White trash]

Whereabouts should the emmission crap be located on the zorst ?

I will have to check mine. I bought it as is and haven't removed it myself but.....

Sorry, just re read Garrys post and he's talking about the intake canisters and pipework. All that horrible shit under the airbox that goes from the throttle bodies and the like.

[GSVR]

When the rules where introduced there was much discussion on why certain modifications from the standard bikes where allowed. I argued long and hard that the bikes where allowed to many mods from a standard bike. My main arguement was that all these mods allowed was for more experienced racers with better resources and knowlege to come in and dominate the class.

I often wonder what the class would have been like if no mods where allowed and people could race a standard bike with only the minimum necessary work to make it suitable for the track. ie Streetstock 650. My guess has always been that format would have seen huge numbers entering because you could enter any eligable roadbike and have it race ready in less than day.

Thanks WT

The emission control that people are asking about comes from the camshaft covers and fuel tank etc. Its all there to meet emmission standards and does nothing to make the bike any slower or faster but it could be agued that removing it saves some weight. I just mentioned it to show although the rules are very good in comparsion to the F3 rules they still need refining more.

For me we have the rules as they are now and thats the end of it... If Deano or others want to ask me how to make their bikes faster legally (within the rules) I'm happy to help if I can but some of the options are very expensive.

[Racey Rider]

Is "Pro-twins" only for 650cc four strokes or can other twins (say a RGV250) be included? Guess the rules are at the MNZ site. will see what I can find.

Edit: My useless computer won't open the MNZ pdf files. so can't know.

[White trash]

When the rules where introduced there was much discussion on why certain modifications from the standard bikes where allowed. I argued long and hard that the bikes where allowed to many mods from a standard bike. My main arguement was that all these mods allowed was for more experienced racers with better resources and knowlege to come in and dominate the class.

I often wonder what the class would have been like if no mods where allowed and people could race a standard bike with only the minimum necessary work to make it suitable for the track. ie Streetstock 650. My guess has always been that format would have seen huge numbers entering because you could enter any eligable roadbike and have it race ready in less than day.

Thanks WT

The emission control that people are asking about comes from the camshaft covers and fuel tank etc. Its all there to meet emmission standards and does nothing to make the bike any slower or faster but it could be agued that removing it saves some weight. I just mentioned it to show although the rules are very good in comparsion to the F3 rules they still need refining more.

For me we have the rules as they are now and thats the end of it... If Deano or others want to ask me how to make their bikes faster legally (within the rules) I'm happy to help if I can but some of the options are very expensive.

I think that's ideally what the direction it should head in. The thing is, RG150s carsh VERY well and can be fixed at minimal cost. An SV650 has expensive parts on it. For example, mufflers, footpeg hangers, handle bars and the like.

Personally, I think Pro Twins SHOULD be a street stock 650 class, however it's just not do-able with the cost of replacement parts.

[FROSTY:Me]

I think that's ideally what the direction it should head in. The thing is, RG150s carsh VERY well and can be fixed at minimal cost. An SV650 has expensive parts on it. For example, mufflers, footpeg hangers, handle bars and the like.

Personally, I think Pro Twins SHOULD be a street stock 650 class, however it's just not do-able with the cost of replacement parts.

In fear of sounding like a stuck record I happen to agree with GSVR
I made my objections to the level of permissable modifications to pro twins bikes right from day 1
One example-- full exhaust systems-Power commanders,cam dialing ,.
Heres how I saw it go down-
Welll now hang on -if they crash the factory mufflers gonna be expensive to replace therefore aftermarket mufflers should be allowed Yep Fair enough
Then someone in their wisdom came up with the idea that on injected SV's you cant replace just the muffler.(incorrect incidently) Therefore you "need " to fit a full system.Hang on the M4 system is good for 4-6hp so the guys that wanna win fit M4 or similar.
Ohh but hang on the fuelling will be wrong so we need a Pc to dial in the injection. Ohh but then the cam timings gonna be wrong so slot the cam wheels and dial em in.
WOOOA there -$kaching $2500 -$4000
Now the intent of the rule was to reduce cost so--how about NO pc and no cam dialling and yep you can replace the end can. --Now only $300
Ya see where Im goin with this? --again stuck record I know
I dont agree with WT that theres a lot of expensive bits that break. lets take a lesson from the past here
Yep you need rad protectors and oggies but stuff like pegs and peg hangers Gee I know Billy was casting up RGV250 hangers and selling em for about $20 a side back in the 250 proddy days so thats easy to replicate.
Handlebars wise I had a set of welded steel clip ons on my SV when I first got it---they were fine.
How about its easy.yes you can fit cheap alternative pegs and bars -but they must look the same as factory
Suspension wise I agree that the commuter suspension on SV's and ER's is orrible but There should be a $ limit to the shocks used
Say $2000 for front n rear which last time I suggested this Robert indicated would get a reasonable set up.

Basicly My thinking is PT should be --rock into bike shop Buy bike.
Spend $3000 on rubber ,muffler and suspension. Go race


What I found really funny is that the poms have been running a "low cost" series called Mini twins. with great success for many years.
We didn't need to reinvent the wheel--the wheel was there complete with yes a union jack on it but none the less built finished tried and true. The one rule that stuck in my mind was the 75hp limit and limited suspension mods

[White trash]

Ummm, yeah mate. I agree.

[lostinflyz]

Pro Twin is still slow to get going regettably. It really has the potential to revitalise the both the club and national scene with predominantly young, developing riders. We all all want that....don't we?
I have huge respect for Robert taylor, but I hope his comments don't discourage riders into thinking you need very expensive suspension parts and Robert on "speed dial" to get a look in. It's worth tempering this by reminding readers that the Ruapuna round was won, two race wins and including the GP by Patrick Jones. This bike owes him less than 5 grand. It started as a $2000 wreck in Auckland (anyone could have bought it). No new parts, all straightened with a bit of ingenuity. A $400 "nobody" shock off trademe, the emulators, dampers, spacers and springs all home made. Even the fork oil was home made, a brew of ATF and 20/50 engine oil from the Warehouse.
By all means get the best, but remember what the class is really for, getting young riders out there. The low spec bikes of Carl Morgan and Patrick this year show it still "can be done".

The main risk to Pro Twin is cheating. SVR is right, looking at a lot of bikes there is obvious "no compliances" all over them. Different brakes, subframes
not to mention the apparent horsepower differences. It was noticeable, no way can it explained away by "better drive / lighter rider" This year is over, I just hope next year there is tighter tech control to prevent these suspicions
false or not, ruining the freindships, respect and support you hope to see between the riders.

you forgot to mention the motor that previous to this either shat outta this bike or his previous one. the meet before nationals begun