Pro-Twin discussion

[Robert Taylor]

I think that's ideally what the direction it should head in. The thing is, RG150s carsh VERY well and can be fixed at minimal cost. An SV650 has expensive parts on it. For example, mufflers, footpeg hangers, handle bars and the like.

Personally, I think Pro Twins SHOULD be a street stock 650 class, however it's just not do-able with the cost of replacement parts.

They were never ever intended as a race bike but as a commuter bike. Thats why crankcases crack on them after so many stress hours when you extract horsepower. In stock form they are a wobbly jelly unsuitable for sustained use on a racetrack. FACT.

[White trash]

They were never ever intended as a race bike but as a commuter bike. Thats why crankcases crack on them after so many stress hours when you extract horsepower. In stock form they are a wobbly jelly unsuitable for sustained use on a racetrack. FACT.

Oh I also agree with this sentiment. I've had the pleasure of riding a complete stocker, on factory tyres around Taupo. It sucked.

I think that what a tightly controlled race series needs, is VERY clear rules and enforcment of those rules.

As an example.

650 Sports Production (different name so as not to confuse anyone)
You can make NO engine/exhaust/intake modifications except for a muffler. After market muffler screws your fueling? Tough. Leave it stock if you don't like it.
Control suspension. Suspension must remain stock OR have a control shock fitted. WP/Ohlins/Penske I don't care, but it would have to be decided. You can alter the spring, but the internals must remain the same as the chosen model came out of the box. Emulators. Yes please. But one brand again. Preferably the cheap ones.
Tyres. Control tyres. Fuck it, the system works for WSBK? Mr Pirelli gives you a deal, and that's what we run. ONE pair of tyres per meeting. Wets? That's a safety issue, yes you can run a control wet.

We NEED a tightly controlled National Points class that youngsters can move to from Street Stock. 125s are fantastic, but a competitive one is still expensive and not something any bloke can climb on and prove himself.

[Robert Taylor]

Oh I also agree with this sentiment. I've had the pleasure of riding a complete stocker, on factory tyres around Taupo. It sucked.

I think that what a tightly controlled race series needs, is VERY clear rules and enforcment of those rules.

As an example.

650 Sports Production (different name so as not to confuse anyone)
You can make NO engine/exhaust/intake modifications except for a muffler. After market muffler screws your fueling? Tough. Leave it stock if you don't like it.
Control suspension. Suspension must remain stock OR have a control shock fitted. WP/Ohlins/Penske I don't care, but it would have to be decided. You can alter the spring, but the internals must remain the same as the chosen model came out of the box. Emulators. Yes please. But one brand again. Preferably the cheap ones.
Tyres. Control tyres. Fuck it, the system works for WSBK? Mr Pirelli gives you a deal, and that's what we run. ONE pair of tyres per meeting. Wets? That's a safety issue, yes you can run a control wet.

We NEED a tightly controlled National Points class that youngsters can move to from Street Stock. 125s are fantastic, but a competitive one is still expensive and not something any bloke can climb on and prove himself.

Theres a huge flaw in that already. Heavyweight riders need a heavy rate spring and high speed rebound damping needs recalibration to match that spring. Ditto for lightweight riders, if the damping cant be recalibrated to the spring required then its hardly a level playing field for riders who have the ''temerity'' to fall outside of the average 70 - 80kg range.
Road racing is a team sport that is also about setup, dont dumb it down too much.

[evol mas]

yea cheating is low and uncalled for. I hold my head high and proud in knowing i won on a bike that was completly legal

[lostinflyz]

yea cheating is low and uncalled for. I hold my head high and proud in knowing i won on a bike that was completly legal

the same words emminate from every p twin racer. not to question you but unfortunatly no one admits to skirting the rules.

the racing in pro twins is not nearly close enough to justify any cheating really. what the hell would u expect to gain without failing tech inspection. oris the tech inspection that shite??? Its no good having a stock-ish class if you can skirt the rules willy nillly

[puddytat]

Oh I also agree with this sentiment. I've had the pleasure of riding a complete stocker, on factory tyres around Taupo. It sucked.

I think that what a tightly controlled race series needs, is VERY clear rules and enforcment of those rules.

As an example.

650 Sports Production (different name so as not to confuse anyone)
You can make NO engine/exhaust/intake modifications except for a muffler. After market muffler screws your fueling? Tough. Leave it stock if you don't like it.
Control suspension. Suspension must remain stock OR have a control shock fitted. WP/Ohlins/Penske I don't care, but it would have to be decided. You can alter the spring, but the internals must remain the same as the chosen model came out of the box. Emulators. Yes please. But one brand again. Preferably the cheap ones.
Tyres. Control tyres. Fuck it, the system works for WSBK? Mr Pirelli gives you a deal, and that's what we run. ONE pair of tyres per meeting. Wets? That's a safety issue, yes you can run a control wet.

We NEED a tightly controlled National Points class that youngsters can move to from Street Stock. 125s are fantastic, but a competitive one is still expensive and not something any bloke can climb on and prove himself.

I reckon that'd be pretty nigh to spot on, and would also work well for
600 IL4's too

but like RT says, you'd have to acomodate the Fatties & Skinneys

[GSVR]

Personally I think some of whats being said here is not true.

1/ What does a set of aftermarket rearsets cost? How many OEM replacements would this buy. Also bear in mind its easy to get these repaired by welding.

2/ The std SV650 sucked for WT because he's used to riding alot better performance bikes. If he had come off an RG150 he would think the SV was the bees knees!

3/ All the talk about high tyrewear etc on a SV with std shocks is just not true. I've done several trackdays that involves much longer sints on the track than a raceday and my second hand castoffs have come off looking great with very even wear. I'm not the fastest guy on the track but I was capable of running near the front in F3 at club level the one year I did compete.

4/ Apart from the fact the tank sticks out the sides too far SVs crash better than 600s and 1000s do. Probably because they are going slower and have much more substantual frames. Crash bungs go a long way to minimising the damage.

5/ As for accomadating the fat and skinny folk this is PC crap. Why not help out fatty in streetstock by letting him have another 50cc! Laughable. What about all the poor skinny chaps that wanna be sumo wresters. Man my heart goes out to them. Fat guys usually end up riding Harleys so lets bring back Sportster racing. Seriously allowing springs and oil to be changed is as far as this should go.


Just another point of interest how many ProTwin racers run the huge OEM battery? If you read the rules no mention is made of being able to run a different sized battery so technically anyone who did is a cheat!


Disclaimer:
The views posted above are not necessarily the opinions of the person who posted it.

[White trash]

Theres a huge flaw in that already. Heavyweight riders need a heavy rate spring and high speed rebound damping needs recalibration to match that spring. Ditto for lightweight riders, if the damping cant be recalibrated to the spring required then its hardly a level playing field for riders who have the ''temerity'' to fall outside of the average 70 - 80kg range.
Road racing is a team sport that is also about setup, dont dumb it down too much.

Roger that big fella.

Seal the shocks. Problem solved.

[White trash]

yea cheating is low and uncalled for. I hold my head high and proud in knowing i won on a bike that was completly legal

Get your body paint out and blow an air horn son, you're the champion!!!!

[oyster]

Wayne, have you got me in trouble....
Yep, I prepped up Patrick's bike. I fixed what I could, made what I could and bought what I couldn't. Isn't that what we all do?
I've got a horrible classic race bike with BSA forks. A few weeks after having a bit of chat a race meeting re these problems and how I might fix them, an old guy in his 70's called in with a old hand drawings of fork internals he said would fix it. This what they did to make Gold Star racers work properly in the 60's. Yes 40 years ago. And when I looked at the details, dimensioned in fractional inches, there were the principles of the "modern" Gold Valve emulator. Big holes, check valving, "cracking" pressure and differential compression / rebound. No, when I made Patrick's parts I didn't take anyone's intellectual property, I applied the principles established 40 plus years ago.
If I had time I would've made the exhaust. Would I be in trouble with Yoshimura? Of course not.

Now, Burt Munro you naughty boy. In the book it said you copied the cylinder heads of the latest technology of the time, the AJS Big Port. 1926. Wicked.

Rob, if it worries you, I'm sorry. I'm just working my butt off as supporter (and father) to make the knowledge and equipment as widely available as possible, for the good of the sport. Same as you.

[FROSTY:Me]

Theres a huge flaw in that already. Heavyweight riders need a heavy rate spring and high speed rebound damping needs recalibration to match that spring. Ditto for lightweight riders, if the damping cant be recalibrated to the spring required then its hardly a level playing field for riders who have the ''temerity'' to fall outside of the average 70 - 80kg range.
Road racing is a team sport that is also about setup, dont dumb it down too much.

WRONG --by running a control shock front and rear there is NO reason the shock setup can't be calibrated to suit the riders weight. You have said this many times yourself. Thats part of the bike tuning process. Lets be honest here if you are building 20 shocks -same type it wouldnt be hard for you to build to individual riders weight.

[GSVR]

Why a control shock? Whats next ... a control tyre, control fuel.

People should not be allowed to race in ProTwin if they don't have control tyre warmers. It is dangerous for someone to be barrelling into turn one on cold tyres. They don't have the same level of grip and might crash! Worse if they are on standard suspension too so lets not let people ride unless they have decent suspension ie Ohlins TTX36 or better.

[FROSTY:Me]

sorry mate re shocks. Just rephrased that comment.
Shock wise My point is to limit the $$$$$ being spent.
No reason a penske,WP,ohlins ex gixxer thou etc shock cant be fitted but there has to be a means of establishing a price break. Maybee no remote resevoir. (Im not up to speed enough to be able to state the means just the intent)My point was that as an example RT when building say 20 XYZ shocks could put different damping and springs to suit different rider weights so the comment about disadvantaging heavy riders isnt true.

================================================== ====
Re Control Tyres --HECK YEA but heres the rub Running control tyres must be to ADVANTAGE the riders.
Id suggest that the next years PT contract be offered to all the tyre companys --Dunlop,metzler,pirelli,conti, etc
Whoever comes up with the best deal on tyres gets that years control tyre.
Of course the bikes have to display a sponser sticker for that brand.
Im in no way stuck on that idea but it would I feel reduce individual riders costs.
For the jokers gonna say --ohh what if chen shin etc put their hand up -clearly the riders wouldnt use rubbish tyres

Control fuel wise -um aint we already doing that? -Not trying to get a point in here just I thought we had to use commercially available pump gas.

The one thing Im keen on is reducing rhe money spent on engines.
Again the poms seem to have hit the right formula with a 75hp limit.
They arent haveing the issues the yanks are having with exploding engines. Spena a million bucks on ya engine but if it makes more than 75--yer out

[Robert Taylor]

Wayne, have you got me in trouble....
Yep, I prepped up Patrick's bike. I fixed what I could, made what I could and bought what I couldn't. Isn't that what we all do?
I've got a horrible classic race bike with BSA forks. A few weeks after having a bit of chat a race meeting re these problems and how I might fix them, an old guy in his 70's called in with a old hand drawings of fork internals he said would fix it. This what they did to make Gold Star racers work properly in the 60's. Yes 40 years ago. And when I looked at the details, dimensioned in fractional inches, there were the principles of the "modern" Gold Valve emulator. Big holes, check valving, "cracking" pressure and differential compression / rebound. No, when I made Patrick's parts I didn't take anyone's intellectual property, I applied the principles established 40 plus years ago.
If I had time I would've made the exhaust. Would I be in trouble with Yoshimura? Of course not.
Now, Burt Munro you naughty boy. In the book it said you copied the cylinder heads of the latest technology of the time, the AJS Big Port. 1926. Wicked.

Rob, if it worries you, I'm sorry. I'm just working my butt off as supporter (and father) to make the knowledge and equipment as widely available as possible, for the good of the sport. Same as you.

I hear you and yes there is never much that hasnt been done before, in fact if you look inside oem DR350 forks there is something a little similiar but they scored an own goal and it doesnt work as it should.
Indeed it should be asked how similiar are they because as I recall the class rules allow emulators only, so your items should have been tech inspected....
Given the news media fed / promoted recession ( these guys exacerbate everything negatively ) there will be a greater level of piracy happening on many goods and that is why big manufacturers have people investigating and taking action where possible.

[Robert Taylor]

Why a control shock? Whats next ... a control tyre, control fuel.

People should not be allowed to race in ProTwin if they don't have control tyre warmers. It is dangerous for someone to be barrelling into turn one on cold tyres. They don't have the same level of grip and might crash! Worse if they are on standard suspension too so lets not let people ride unless they have decent suspension ie Ohlins TTX36 or better.

Now thats just mischievous and flippant is it not?