URGENT Advice req re smoking at work.

[mynameis]

Despite being a non-smoker (never have, never will) I have to disagree. As long as it doesn't affect his work performance I'd disagree. If he's smoking while he works, in an area that is not designated smoke-free, it should have absolutely no bearing.

As for no statutory breaks, I find this unbelievable. My brief amount of research on the subject (2 minutes on google) appears to lay the blame at the feet of the 'evil National government' and the 1991 ECA. However, I note that the 'friends of the workers party' Labour didn't much care to reintroduce the award with the 2000 ERA.

Fortunately I'm self-employed, skilled and in demand so I take my breaks when I damned well feel like it. But even before becoming self-employed I made sure I had all the breaks I needed and if anyone had attempted to tell me not to, they'd have been told to get stuffed. I can't believe anyone would agree to working without breaks.

Carefully read the question again:

Is it reasonable for someone to smoke at work during working hours (for when you're getting paid) ? Answer is NO.

In his case what is questionable here is "at work" which in this case is his usual place of work, which is the golf course. Although you are permitted to smoke at the course it is definitely not ok to smoke while working. It's pretty simple really. Almost a no brainer.

I'll give you an example, a tour guide is out and about with his group showing people around, would it be ok for him to light a fag while his doing that? NO.

[awayatc]

Interesting that research shows that abstinence from smoking may increase your life but abstinence from sex (guys) may decrease it. Maybe you need to do more of the other at work instead.

no need swapping jobs......
just swap buts.....

Wel I could imagine somebody being forced to give up smoking cold turkey (been there)....could suffer-lets say- "bowel issues".....and therefor has to visit the toilet hourly.(not just any old tree....)
Leaving a whiff of evidence shouldn't be to hard.....
Nor finding a medical certificate to back it....

They lose a lot more "productive" time then when you were smoking.......

[cowboyz]

Ok firstly, do you have a copy of your contract with your employer?
Secondly did it say it was just a "Notice" or does it say something else?

it is a memo.

Mid 80's is good mate ! Have you done the full apprenticeship and are a fully qualified green keeper?

Have you looked at the Auckland market, good money over here is what I hear?? I take it you wouldn't move here

not a hope in hell. I would get eaten alive up there in the big smoke.

I'll give you an example, a tour guide is out and about with his group showing people around, would it be ok for him to light a fag while his doing that? NO.

that is a good clear example why they have no case to answer over this. Thanks. Off to a smoke-free workday now, (excluding breaks where I will smoke like a train).

[Pascal]

I got a job working outside so I could smoke all day to my hearts content. Now the rules have changed without notice. Again, if EVERYONE was stopped smoking I would have less of a problem with it. But having a group of guys smoking around you and your not allowed to gets irritating really fast.

It does. I'm in the process of giving up at the moment and the guy that sits next to me smokes; so everytime he wanders back in reeking of nicotine I want to lick his face to get at that delicious nectar. I don't care that he has cheek folds and a moustache, I just fucking need nicotine. You know?

At least my employer's not being an asshole about it; they let us smoke if / when we need it.

Anyway, I'm using "The easy way to give up smoking" (Or something like that) It's a damn good book and seems as if it's pointing me in the right direction at least.

If you are tempted to quit, might be worth putting it as a challenge. See which of us manages to actually do it. And of course there'd be a bit of mutual support, encouragement, etc. if you're keen.

If not, no worries and good luck with fighting your employer.

[Max Preload]

Carefully read the question again:

Is it reasonable for someone to smoke at work during working hours (for when you're getting paid) ? Answer is NO.

In his case what is questionable here is "at work" which in this case is his usual place of work, which is the golf course. Although you are permitted to smoke at the course it is definitely not ok to smoke while working. It's pretty simple really. Almost a no brainer.

I'll give you an example, a tour guide is out and about with his group showing people around, would it be ok for him to light a fag while his doing that? NO.

I read and understood the question perfectly well the first time, thanks, but it's your answer I disagree with because you offer no argument, just a simple NO. So, why NO? Does his smoking during work hours affect his work performance? No, I don't see that it does. Does it make him less productive? No, I don't see that it does since he's still working while smoking, not stopping for the duration. Is it illegal to smoke there? No, it isn't. Would you put up with being told you can't have a drink while you're working despite how thirsty you are or you can't use the toilet until your break. I know I wouldn't.

Oh, and he's not a tour guide.

[Swoop]

I was speaking to the dept of labour and as of 1st april it will be law that you are to have a 10 min break every 2 hours worked and a half hour unpaid lunch break if work more than 5.5 hours.

So I got 2 weeks to work until I get a afternoon smoke break.

This has just been released.


Rest and meal breaks
Employees will be entitled to:
· one paid 10-minute rest break if their work period is between two and four hours;

· one paid 10-minute rest break and one unpaid 30-minute meal break if their work period is between four and six hours;

· two paid 10-minute rest breaks and one unpaid 30-minute meal break if their work period is between six and eight hours.

If more than an eight hour period is worked, these requirements automatically extend to cover the additional hours on the same basis.

The timing of rest and meal breaks is flexible and can follow any arrangement agreed between employer and employee.

If an agreement can't be reached, the rest and meal breaks should be spread evenly throughout the work period.

For more information, visit:
www.ers.govt.nz/relationships/breaks.html

[mikeey01]

it is a memo..

Great, that's what I hoped!
Now your contact (I hope you have a copy). Let me know.
Look through for smoking during working hours clause, also if there is a clause that reads something like the following.

Lots have mentioned about agreements/contracts ect..ect.. If there's a simple clause in his contract which states "you will follow all reasonable instructions laid out by the employer" .

This is a hard one to argue when it comes to fair and reasonable instruction, must one understand the inclusion and intent of this in any contract. It cannot be used as a blanket clause in this manner.
The intent of the ERA, it's flavour and fairness to all parties must firstly be applied, to use this as a blanket fix all, or perhaps reasoning to prevent a smoke whilst mowing lawns on a tractor... mmm I would say it would not even last an hour in front of an adjudicator!

I think there has already been a test case, very close to this one, not same but nearly, I haven't found it yet.

[Finn]

I work outside.

My workplace have decided I am not allowed to smoke during working hours.

The answer is very simple my friend and is much better for you and actually tastes delicious.

Introducing Snus. No, it's not chewing tobacco, it pure tobacco in a tiny wee pouch much like a little tea bag that you place under your lip. Rather than stinky, harmful smoke, it slowly releases tobacco into your system.

Think of all the benefits... No more stink. People don't look at you like your're a kiddie fiddler, you can enjoy them at work, in shops, in restaurants and even on planes.

And get this... the are not harmful. The Swedish Government demanded warning labels but the tobacco companies said prove that Snus causes harm and sure we will... end result, no warning label.

So go forth and be free my friend. PM me for supply...

I'm doing some work with our new Government on this...

[Oakie]

How the fuck does smoking count as a disability, WHEN YOU START AND CONTINUE TO POISON YOURSELF BY CHOICE, in the face of common sense and medical science..

'Smoking' is not the disability. 'Addiction' is.

[Oakie]

Are you on an individual employment agreement or a collective agreement?
either way any thing stated in the employment agreement can't be changed or have addition of clauses without agreement of all parties. If it's a collective agreement there has to be a detail on how an existing agreement can be changed.
Going to be a bit of paperwork shuffling for them

Unless it is something that is demanded by law. If a contract is silent on a subject that is covered by legislation then the legislation is still binding whether or not the contract mentions it.

[bully]

suss out your work mates, who cares who doesnt. some non smokers wouldnt care. and whos gunna know if your on the other side of the course. just keep an eye out for ass holes. if your with others smoking, the public, join in, if a ass hole comes over, throw it on the ground say, it wasnt me prove it.
just be sly about it.
like some one else said, you get a lot of warnings first, so no biggie,.
good luck.

[mynameis]

I read and understood the question perfectly well the first time, thanks, but it's your answer I disagree with because you offer no argument, just a simple NO. So, why NO? Does his smoking during work hours affect his work performance? No, I don't see that it does.

Does it make him less productive? No, I don't see that it does since he's still working while smoking, not stopping for the duration. Is it illegal to smoke there? No, it isn't. Would you put up with being told you can't have a drink while you're working despite how thirsty you are or you can't use the toilet until your break. I know I wouldn't.

Oh, and he's not a tour guide.

Mate like I said before this case is SO SIMPLE it's a no brainer and if you really can't see through it I don't know what else to say.

You're comparing the basic necessities like drink and toilet breaks to smoking. You must be kidding yourself.

Yes I haven't reasoned things out because I think most people would be able to work simple things out themselves but you have drawn a few conclusions very quickly. How do you know it doesn't affect his performance??

When I say most people would be able to work simple reasons out themselves, here's one for you to think about:

Is it safe to smoke a cigarette while operating a machine (mower) which has petrol and if he accidentally drops it in the wrong place, a few small things can go wrong.

And there's probably some other good reasons why his employer is implementing it, which I don't have time to get into.

Like I said before it's a pretty simple case and any sensible employee will take measures (irrespective of how addicted you are to smoking - been there done that) to follow a simple guideline.

It would be silly for anyone to argue endlessly and run the risk of losing your job. I am happy I have a job in this current economic situation.

[TerminalAddict]

as swoop has already mentioned, rest breaks are now law.
10 min break every 2 hours, and a minimum 30 min break every 4 hours

The change to non-smoking policy, is a policy change, not a unilateral contract change, unless smoking is specifically mentioned in your contract.

Start claiming your rights to breaks.

Go through the 7 "rules" and see if they relate directly to clauses in your contract, if they do, then you have recourse, and this is negotiable and cannot be unilateral.

I'm a smoker, and every now and then get complaints like "you smokers are always going outside". I point out that we (the smokers) smoke at 10am, 3pm, and whenever the fuck we want in our lunch break, if other in the organisation chose not to have a morning or afternoon break that is their choice, but not mine .. I take my breaks.

also, As already mentioned, the smokefree laws can only be enforceable if the entire place is declared smoke free, public place or not, an owner has a right to declare their place of employment completely smokefree. Most hospital grounds, for instance, are 100% smokefree now, even outside ... no smoking on the grounds anywhere.

you are entitled to get off your mower at your legally entitled break times, and smoke anywhere outside, although if you suspect this will create a fight, don't smoke on the mower, as vehicles can be specifically identified a "work places" .. the fact that they are outside, and don't have a cabin doesn't matter .. it's a vehicle.

If this is directly targeted at you, as you suspect, then start documenting things. You may be looking at constructive dismissal, and therefore an exit package ... have a years salary in the bank, is just as good as having a years employment.

Don't be afraid to use the words "personal grievance".
Just because you use the words, doesn't mean you have to actually use the method. Often the use of the words has a remarkable effect on the situation.

Consider what it is the employer is trying to achieve. Put yourself in their shoes for a day, and truly examine what their motivation is. Doing this will allow you to build a much stronger case, and will often reveal some "aces" that you can store up your sleeve when you hit the negotiating table.

Take your time, you have time on your side. you generally have 90 days to respond to anything an employer does. ... go home have a beer or 3, sleep a couple of nights, then respond, otherwise you will get emotionally involved and cock it up.

TA.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Interesting attitude right there. I, as an employer would not approve a paid 10 min an hour smoke break either, but I sure as shit would not dismiss a smoker as a potential employee either. Heard of discrimination have you?

Yes I have as it happens. I acknowledge that my libertarian tendencies would seem to be at odds with this. I acknowledge that is contradictory. Lets put it down to me watching my mother die of lung cancer aged 42 when I was 17. It kind of put me off smoking somewhat. My employees, my call.

[TerminalAddict]

.... My employees, my call.

just don't get caught saying that out loud ...