*Warning* Maori sovereignty thread *Warning*

[Finn]

FYI if your parents earn too much - and you have left home.....this idea COST's you money.
Its not all rosey outside your little box. Only for those that rip the system.

Like maoris you mean?

[Paul in NZ]

Usual mix of supurbly argued cases with the supidly argued duffle bags.

I guess we all have a point of view BUT I respect anyone that has the balls to adopt a lifestyle that brings them personal satisfaction and achievement without depriving others of the same. Sending your child to a maori language Immersion school is not a soft or easy choise. It requires sacrifice and effort above the norm.

As motorcyclist we expect society to respect our individual choice of transport and to make allowance for it when it makes little logical sense and we are certainly a minority. You would think that another group, making a minority stand would be worthy of our patient attention.

OK - Maoridom has a few nutters that make a lot of noise and get into the newspapers but than no more represent the views of the greater population than does Mikeys views on roadsafety represent the views of most Motorcyclists (not dissing you Mikey, just hijacking your persona)....

[candor]

Can't they just train you to clean bed pans and train dressings like the good old days??
.

That was not what happened in the good old days. Nurses have always been politically and socially active - you can't treat illness in isolation from addressing living or system conditions that contribute, that is 'working dumb'. The health system is not screwed because of nurses but due to lack of resourcing. So your Mum (1 person) has apparently proved she could not juggle home and career and is not superwoman - how does that discredit 'nursing' or its current role/contribution in society per se?

You'd not be the only one in that boat either. Used to be that kids grew up not knowing hard working dads, now they cop it both ways often enough.

[The_Dover]

Err, the largest Mori Ori population in NZ was in the Chathams (Rekohu) and the British helped Taranaki Maori enslave that population in exchange for land. I think you'll find that Mori Ori were not unrelated to Maori either.

Just to add some flame to the fire, issues of Maori sovereignty can really be resolved until things like this:

http://www.vuw.ac.nz/law/Centres/NZC...eb%20paper.pdf

stop happening.

Then there's another theory beginning to surface that Maori and MoriOri are genetically exactly the same as the Native Taiwanese, and the language similarities are startling. On the back of that theory the Taiwanese came under significant persecution around the time this guy:

http://www.transgenderzone.com/featu...uchadmiral.htm

was mapping his way across the world, so maybe the diaspora that resulted in Maori and MoriOri settling in NZ took place later than thought and over a much shorter period of time.

Who the hell knows.

Say what you want, the fact that Maori have been exploited is undeniable. We've failed signally to develop a NZ culture that embraces the origins of the people that live here, and I think it is justifiable that Maori continue to present a case for the rest of us applying some value to their culture. It should be our culture too.

Busby perverted the intention of the Treaty of Waitangi so the NZ company would make money selling forest to Norwegian farmers, and Hobson's fairly naive (but what breathtaking naivety at a time when other native peoples were being butchered in the 10s of thousands) desire to develop a partnership with Maori.

Getting angry is precisely what the proponents of Tino rangatiratanga want you to do. It makes you look like a raving redneck racist and fuels the fire that will result in a (more) divisive NZ society.

Dialogue, not hate speech or worse, apathy, and especially not ignorance, will not help the situation. Read Michael King and James Belich to gain a perspective of both sides of the argument.

How the fuck does pandering to one group of people whose "forefathers" may have been exploited (they certainly haven't) and creating a mixed class society where one ethnic/cultural/gang group have more rights than the majority make for a better society?

We've got too many wanker academics sitting writing bullshit papers, referencing other papers (that in turn reference other academic ideollogical wankery) and philosiphising from their priviliged position of getting paid to sit and think up this bullshit and study society as a whole and not enough people who just want to get on with it an not delve deeply into a load of old crap that can't be changed.

One rule for all. I don't give a fuck who or where you came from socially, culturally or geographically.

Live and let fucking live, don't force your culture on me or anyone else, don't expect everyone to appreciate the origins of whoever or whatever. Some people just don't give a fuck. Fine if you do.

Equality for all. Except wimmin.

Usual mix of supurbly argued cases with the supidly argued duffle bags.

I guess we all have a point of view BUT I respect anyone that has the balls to adopt a lifestyle that brings them personal satisfaction and achievement without depriving others of the same. Sending your child to a maori language Immersion school is not a soft or easy choise. It requires sacrifice and effort above the norm.

As motorcyclist we expect society to respect our individual choice of transport and to make allowance for it when it makes little logical sense and we are certainly a minority. You would think that another group, making a minority stand would be worthy of our patient attention.

OK - Maoridom has a few nutters that make a lot of noise and get into the newspapers but than no more represent the views of the greater population than does Mikeys views on roadsafety represent the views of most Motorcyclists (not dissing you Mikey, just hijacking your persona)....

Who are you calling a duffle bag?

This has squat all to do with motorcycle (bar being on KB).

We don't want to force everyone else to ride a motorbike or expect special rules and privileges for motorcyclists. Ok we talk about it, but realistically.

I respect the choice to send your kids to a Maori language kindie, whatever, but I don't necessarily think it's gonna get them ahead in the modern world. Everyone should want the best for their kids but there are some selfish parents who put their wants, beliefs and culture before the realism of what a kid really needs to get ahead in life.

Coherent enough?

[davereid]

Edit: I want us to become a republic, then the treaty would be null and viod, that's why the Maori's would never want that to happen
-Indy

The Treaty is already null and void. It was between some Maori and the British Crown. It ended when we obtained independence from the brits.

Don't believe me ?

Try fronting up at Heathrow waving your NZ passport, and the part of the treaty that says you have "The Rights and Privileges of British Subjects"

"Sorry buddy - go stand in the Aliens Queue, with the Iranians" would be the outcome.

The treaty died years ago, when we formed our own nation. RIP.

[The_Dover]

That was not what happened in the good old days. Nurses have always been politically and socially active - you can't treat illness in isolation from addressing living or system conditions that contribute, that is 'working dumb'. The health system is not screwed because of nurses but due to lack of resourcing. So your Mum (1 person) has apparently proved she could not juggle home and career and is not superwoman - how does that discredit 'nursing' or its current role/contribution in society per se?

You'd not be the only one in that boat either. Used to be that kids grew up not knowing hard working dads, now they cop it both ways often enough.

It wasn't that she couldn't juggle a career and home. But my father managed to, on his own.

That's the sort of insight I have into those who see fit to worry about the academics and bullshit of society and try and right the wrongs of the past, instead of just getting on with the job at hand and letting others be.

I know who is the better person and contributes more to society as a whole too.

[James Deuce]

Equality for all. Except wimmin.

Ha ha. N00b. That's what I said. You should read stuff before dissing, you silly Englishman.

[Macktheknife]

Err, the largest Mori Ori population in NZ was in the Chathams (Rekohu) and the British helped Taranaki Maori enslave that population in exchange for land. I think you'll find that Mori Ori were not unrelated to Maori either.
Surely that should be the largest surviving population as they were systematically slaughtered around the country by the Maoris.
Just to add some flame to the fire, issues of Maori sovereignty can't really be resolved until things like this:

http://www.vuw.ac.nz/law/Centres/NZC...eb%20paper.pdf

stop happening.
What exactly are you referring to? The court? The Lecture? Or perhaps educated Maoris with an opinion?

Then there's another theory beginning to surface that Maori and MoriOri are genetically exactly the same as the Native Taiwanese, and the language similarities are startling. On the back of that theory the Taiwanese came under significant persecution around the time this guy:

http://www.transgenderzone.com/featu...uchadmiral.htm

was mapping his way across the world, so maybe the diaspora that resulted in Maori and MoriOri settling in NZ took place later than thought and over a much shorter period of time.

Who the hell knows.
Ask the Waitaha.... they were here long before the Maori, living peacefully. And they have specific legends and stories of white people living here when they arrived in the 2nd century.

Say what you want, the fact that Maori have been exploited is undeniable. We've failed signally to develop a NZ culture that embraces the origins of the people that live here, and I think it is justifiable that Maori continue to present a case for the rest of us applying some value to their culture. It should be our culture too.
Oh come on, you don't really expect us to divest ourselves of our own culture to take on that of the Maori!

Busby perverted the intention of the Treaty of Waitangi so the NZ company would make money selling forest to Norwegian farmers, and perverted Hobson's fairly naive (but what breathtaking naivety at a time when other native peoples were being butchered in the 10s of thousands) desire to develop a partnership with Maori.
This part may be correct but again, not completely. Hobson genuinely believed that this partnership was the spirit of the treaty.

Getting angry is precisely what the proponents of Tino rangatiratanga want you to do. It makes you look like a raving redneck racist and fuels the fire that will result in a (more) divisive NZ society.
An excellent point! Do a little research for yourselves and discover the history of NZ is much greater and far longer than the Maori activists would have you believe.
Dialogue, not hate speech or worse, apathy, and especially not ignorance, will help the situation. Read Michael King and James Belich to gain a perspective of both sides of the argument.

Again a good point, but if you are going to look into the history do it properly. The Waitaha and others were in NZ for more than 1000 years before the Maori arrived and began slaughtering those who did not agree with them. There is evidence of early civilisations up to 150,000 years ago in NZ, and most likely Celtic origins.
The claim of Maori being the 'indigenous people of the land' is false and nothing remotely similar to that of the Aborigines who have been in residence for around 40,000-70,000 years. I am sick of the deliberate misrepresentation of history to suit activists ends, all it takes is 30 seconds to search Google for 'pre-maori' history in NZ, mountains of information and research. Try it.

[The_Dover]

Ha ha. N00b. That's what I said. You should read stuff before dissing, you silly Englishman.

Watch it baldie, before I send Finn down to bit yer knees.

You told us to go read books and embrace mowri culchur.

Fuck that.

[Clockwork]

......- you can't treat illness in isolation from addressing living or system conditions that contribute, that is 'working dumb'.

This I don't get. When did society ask for Nurses to treat anything other than the physical manifestations of the sick. Who decided that Nuses should now be Social Workers?

[MisterD]

The northern counties of England were, from the beginning of the industrial revolution, low paid, high unemployment areas where minimum educational standards were the norm. Schools existed only to turn out factory fodder. people who would work for a subsistance wage without complaning. When, through the unions, they did start to make themselves heard they were labelled as communists and reviled by their better off brethren in the south. A form of racism and class discrimination against their own countrymen. Not unlike the present situation in NZ.

Can we keep to arguing about NZ history and not bring distorted sweeping incorrect renderings of UK history into this already muddy puddle?

[terbang]

Then there's another theory beginning to surface that Maori and MoriOri are genetically exactly the same as the Native Taiwanese, and the language similarities are startling. On the back of that theory the Taiwanese came under significant persecution around the time this guy:
(The Castrated Chinese Guy)
was mapping his way across the world, so maybe the diaspora that resulted in Maori and MoriOri settling in NZ took place later than thought and over a much shorter period of time.

Who the hell knows.

I am no expert on the pacific's colonisation but when I left Indonesia with a head full of their language I worked in both Majuro and Tonga for short periods. I was very surprised that I could understand a fair bit that was being said and there were a lot of similarities between the languages.
I figure it has something with the way the earth rotates and therefore the way the wind prevails. They didn't have motor boats back then. Having navigated across the pacific many times myself I can assure you that it is easier and quicker eastbound.

[Deano]

I am a graduate of cultural safety training in my Nursing degree which involved 400 hours of our ?2000 hours theory,

How can you always be 'culturally safe' without at times compromising your own culture ?

My sociology lecturer (sorry it was only about 90 hours) felt cultural safety was a crock.

[Indiana_Jones]

The Treaty is already null and void. It was between some Maori and the British Crown. It ended when we obtained independence from the brits.

Don't believe me ?

Try fronting up at Heathrow waving your NZ passport, and the part of the treaty that says you have "The Rights and Privileges of British Subjects"

"Sorry buddy - go stand in the Aliens Queue, with the Iranians" would be the outcome.

The treaty died years ago, when we formed our own nation. RIP.

Other way round for me, I have to go through the aliens when i get into NZ, and get to go through the Citizen que in the UK.

Really need to get that NZ citizenship lol

-Indy

[candor]

This I don't get. When did society ask for Nurses to treat anything other than the physical manifestations of the sick. Who decided that Nurses should now be Social Workers?

You'll get nowhere by JUST treating the physical manifestations, in many cases that will just increase health epidemics eg attention seekers. The history of nursing is long but if you're interested...

Witches.... politically active, used range of potions and counselling
Victorian prostitutes (took rich dying old men home)...
Florence Nightingale (made what the hookers did respectable tho had trouble recruiting 'nice girls' to do such stigmatised work initially)... very socially and politically active like advocated for hygeine / ventilated facilities, health education and health promotion
Nurse Maude - took nursing here in NZ out of the hospital on her bicycle
Diabetes nurses - educate about diet eg in fat communities
Psyc nurses - work on changing cultural beliefs that contribute to suicide and removing stigma so patients will not suffer sticks and stones atop illness which can exacerbate illness eg cause them not to take medicine, back to hosp!
Nurse prescribers - see selves as regaining the prescribing role Drs stole from them in Victorian era
Voluntary nurses abroad - may advocate to effect the politics making people starve or not get medicines if they are a prime cause of illness etc

As I hope you see to talk of nurses as mere wound dressers is very narrow - caregivers can do that, nurses are expected to have a lot more nous and ability to see what needs fixin' (in whatever area) to get the result.

Re 'cultural safety' comment - yes,its a trade off. But one needed less and less as those who wanted it (Maori) have taken over their own services now making all the focus on that in our training somewhat wasted - it was back then identified as transitional anyway. Despite how extreme it was the general principles have now beeen adopted by nursing education courses all over the world. The main promoter of it Irahapeti Ramsden died of cancer a lil while ago. Deano - tell your sociology lecturer to tell that to rellys of patients killed by culturally unsafe staff please - example; a very old gran in hospital stopped eating and talking (whakama state) which caused her death. It was eventually established that a full urine pottle had been placed momentarily on her food table. That happening and then not getting resolved properly is why she died. For an old traditional Maori this event was somewhat akin to rape.