ESE's works engine tuner

[husaberg]

Around 50 years ago when EFI wasn't even a dot on the horizon, Irving suggested constant flow injection via the big end. Hilborn injection was pretty much state of the art then with Lucas and Bosch just getting progress on mechanical injecion.
It's still a viable scheme - just vary the pump output to suit.

The 1930's Velocette GTP had a Autolube set up. Not sure exactly how it worked.
Irving referred to the bike as Generally Tight Piston

Velocette GTP

Villiers had one even earlier.

OF course DKW had steel reeds years before Yamaha was making bikes as well.

Actually would the GP125 be set up like this as standard?

No ....

PS What set up was the oiling on the GP125 std Rob? just a metered suply into the intake stream?

[Flettner]

Grumph, yes if you want to inject into the intake constant flow injection would be the way to go ( like a carb ). I made a version of this previous ( not electronic ), sort of worked. I ended up realising that an electronic variable pump was the way to go ( constant flow ) but in the mean time thought I would have a go at standard ( ish ) EFI in the interim. As it has turned out this is the way forward ( port injection ) not inlet injection.
I have pointed this out earlier that the pulsing of the injectors at below 1/3 ( approx ) throttle the injectors are on for a very short time. So within the intake phase only a small part of that flow has fuel the rest is just air. The crank case is not a 100% pump so some volume is trapped behind each cycle. The small parcel of fuel MAY NOT be fully transfered to the cylinder each cycle ( mixture strength not constant ) The engine will run and run apparently ( to the ear ) clean but no real power. Transfer injection allows for the full fuel dump each cycle to be transfered to the cylinder nothing left over to affect the next cycle. I worried about the oiling but on inspection it appeared all was oily.
As it happens the F9 is in bits now, a 1973 gearbox bearing let me down. Last trail ride there was some squealing ( from the engine not rider this time ). Sounded like a gearbox bearing, worse on decel and sure enough main input shaft bearing behind the clutch. Engine itself is still in good condition ( and oily ).
I mix at 40 to 1 Micro T with a little castor, injectors and general fuel system seems to be fine with this mixture. Although my fuel burn is approx 1.8 / 1.9 to that of petrol.
DO NOT run dead loss electrical system. Run a suitable aulternator, it doesn't take much voltage loss to affect the injector on time ( it will run lean as voltage drops ). Small high output aulternators are available.
You will spend hours and hours trying to tune something that will never tune. The goal posts are always changing! You NEED constant voltage. I'm sure I've written this before on this forum but I had a regulator that would randomly cut out ( get hot ) and the computer would have to run on battery power for a while until the regulator cooled and decided to work again. The engine was constantly going from lean to rich ( I had it set rich to try and compensate for the lean times ) UN TUNABLE! I ended up running a small digital volt meter for a while after this episode, didn't trust the new regulator!
Just relaying my experiences so others don't fall in the same traps.

[Grumph]

Irving's idea was injection via the big end - ie, fuel under pressure fed into the crank and exiting via the big end slots, cooling the bearing as it passed - and incidentally being well vaporised in the process.
Interesting comments re electrical supply - and all true in my experience too.
Some years back I was asked advice on small alternators by a local engineering firm doing a small 4 stroke aero engine. They had space and weight probs and thought a bike alternator could help. Sadly I couldn't point to one small enough for them. The internet and advances in rare earth magnets have made available just what they needed.
One of the biggest probs Rob Selby had on the Britten motor was packaging the alternator securely. He was never really happy with it.

[speedpro]

I mix at 40 to 1 Micro T with a little castor, injectors and general fuel system seems to be fine with this mixture. Although my fuel burn is approx 1.8 / 1.9 to that of petrol.

So you are running 40:1 but nearly 2X the fuel compared to if you were running normal petrol. Effectively then you are running about 20:1. That much oil per engine revolution anyway.

[husaberg]

Although (i think) 6 volt and i don't think 3 phase the CB100 rotor stator is tiny 75mm ish with a bit of work....Mabye the last ones in the UK in the 80's were 12V cb100n

The Cb175 i think is 12 volt and 3 phase and also smallish.

I guess a lot of the Scooters have decent 12v set up these days.
but how much does it need i guess it is at least 3 amps on the pump?

The Aprilia RSA sure looks looks tiny.........

PS thanks to the Dutch Stig i now have a Honda CVT designed for a 2 Stroke and Special Honda Crank and a Very ugly scooter..
2.23-1.22 ratio range.
Built for a 9 hp bike so i hope Honda have over-engineered it a bit

[Frits Overmars]

Around 50 years ago when EFI wasn't even a dot on the horizon, Irving suggested constant flow injection via the big end.... just vary the pump output to suit.

I had the same plan, though not for the same reason.
I was working on 6.5 cc MB40-engines for F3D model airplanes. The fuel tank position in the fuselage of these little planes is critical as they pull a lot of g's in corners (we don't know how many g's exactly because the g-sensor's maximum is 'only' 36 g). When the fuel level drops, the mixture strength changes; not nice.
My plan was to replace the cruel fuel system (fuel in a bladder with exhaust pipe pressure squeezing the bladder from the outside) with a pump injection. It had to be constant flow because I could not find injectors capable of delivering the required tiny amounts of fuel to a 36,000 rpm engine.
I found suitable pumps here: http://shopping.netsuite.com/app/site/site.nl?alias=flightworks . These pumps are designed for model jet turbines but the snag is that the DC pump motors cannot run slowly enough for a small piston engine; the pump would drown the engine at the first start attempt.
Stepper motors were considered but the problem with those would be that when rapid pump acceleration is required, the stepper motor may miss steps and the engine will lean out without any feedback other than a complete cut-out because of a molten glow plug.
Pulse width modulation for the original DC pump motor was considered next, but then other things took priority so the idea never got finished.

[speedpro]

Honda CRF(?) on my MB

[diesel pig]

Honda CRF(?) on my MB

That looks sexy, Anybody know whats that off for shore? Would make it alot easier looking on E-bay or trademe

[Grumph]

I had the same plan, though not for the same reason.
I was working on 6.5 cc MB40-engines for F3D model airplanes. The fuel tank position in the fuselage of these little planes is critical as they pull a lot of g's in corners (we don't know how many g's exactly because the g-sensor's maximum is 'only' 36 g). When the fuel level drops, the mixture strength changes; not nice.
My plan was to replace the cruel fuel system (fuel in a bladder with exhaust pipe pressure squeezing the bladder from the outside) with a pump injection. It had to be constant flow because I could not find injectors capable of delivering the required tiny amounts of fuel to a 36,000 rpm engine.
I found suitable pumps here: http://shopping.netsuite.com/app/site/site.nl?alias=flightworks . These pumps are designed for model jet turbines but the snag is that the DC pump motors cannot run slowly enough for a small piston engine; the pump would drown the engine at the first start attempt.
Stepper motors were considered but the problem with those would be that when rapid pump acceleration is required, the stepper motor may miss steps and the engine will lean out without any feedback other than a complete cut-out because of a molten glow plug.
Pulse width modulation for the original DC pump motor was considered next, but then other things took priority so the idea never got finished.

Impressively complicated....beyond me. Hilborn mechanical pumps with what's pretty much a linear delivery with revs work reasonably well. Don't know about very high revs though - probably cavitate. Most of the speedway applications I've been involved with use a reduction drive to get the pump revs and hence delivery into the right range for the motor.

[Ocean1]

Around 50 years ago when EFI wasn't even a dot on the horizon, Irving suggested constant flow injection via the big end. Hilborn injection was pretty much state of the art then with Lucas and Bosch just getting progress on mechanical injecion.
It's still a viable scheme - just vary the pump output to suit.

Most early aviation radials didn't have oil pumps, the engine WAS a centrifigal pump. Fueling via the bigend would have the same effect, in fact you'd have to experiment to find the (minimal?) supply pressure required across the rev range and map accordingly. I can see the required pump pressures being quite low.

[husaberg]

I had the same plan, though not for the same reason.
I was working on 6.5 cc MB40-engines for F3D model airplanes. The fuel tank position in the fuselage of these little planes is critical as they pull a lot of g's in corners (we don't know how many g's exactly because the g-sensor's maximum is 'only' 36 g). When the fuel level drops, the mixture strength changes; not nice.
My plan was to replace the cruel fuel system (fuel in a bladder with exhaust pipe pressure squeezing the bladder from the outside) with a pump injection. It had to be constant flow because I could not find injectors capable of delivering the required tiny amounts of fuel to a 36,000 rpm engine.
I found suitable pumps here: http://shopping.netsuite.com/app/site/site.nl?alias=flightworks . These pumps are designed for model jet turbines but the snag is that the DC pump motors cannot run slowly enough for a small piston engine; the pump would drown the engine at the first start attempt.
Stepper motors were considered but the problem with those would be that when rapid pump acceleration is required, the stepper motor may miss steps and the engine will lean out without any feedback other than a complete cut-out because of a molten glow plug.
Pulse width modulation for the original DC pump motor was considered next, but then other things took priority so the idea never got finished.

When you Say "exhaust squeezing" does that mean the exhaust pressurises the tank bladder?

Honda CRF(?) on my MB

Wob got me one the same but what is the output?
I had an idea they were from the late Cr125 to power the ignition and the Carb gublins, I think Dave has one too?
I guess the Fuel injected MX bikes have a higher power one for the aditional electrics

[F5 Dave]

That looks sexy, Anybody know whats that off for shore? Would make it alot easier looking on E-bay or trademe

Def not CRF, they are poxy 4 strokes & should not be used, besides they are well different.

CR250 or CR125. Think about '07 vintage. there are after market lighting kit high output stators, but I opted for a stator flywheel combo.
[edit[] I bought an 02. Avoid 03/04 125 as only 4 pole

You'll need the regulator too, or just find a small one like RG50 & a hua capacitor tied together.

[teriks]

When you Say "exhaust squeezing" does that mean the exhaust pressurises the tank bladder?

I'm not Frits, but that's how it's done.
The tank have a hard outer shell, and a soft bladder inside.
Fuel goes in the soft bladder, exhaust pressure in the space between the bladder and the outer shell.

[Grumph]

I'm not Frits, but that's how it's done.
The tank have a hard outer shell, and a soft bladder inside.
Fuel goes in the soft bladder, exhaust pressure in the space between the bladder and the outer shell.

I've seen a similar setup on a roadrace chair. Small air reservoir, regulator and the tank is pressurised to feed carbs.
Pump up the reservoir at a service station on the way to the track and it did a days racing comfortably.
If you're keen, you could use frame tubes as the reservoir.

[Flettner]

I have four of them, two new, two second hand. These produce enough current to run EFI.
I only need one for the next project and perhaps one spare.