Police killing us again!

[scumdog]

I thought you derided Les a little and maybe a couple of others, but I can't be arsed trawling back through the thread again to gather evidence.

From memory I only questioned Les (OK, a couple of times or so) re his comment that indicated killing motorcyclists by cops was rife in NZ.

But like you I can't be naffed re-travelling this thread to check for any other 'deriding'.

[Katman]

but I can't be arsed trawling back through the thread again to gather evidence.

That's the spirit.

[peasea]

From memory I only questioned Les (OK, a couple of times or so) re his comment that indicated killing motorcyclists by cops was rife in NZ.

But like you I can't be naffed re-travelling this thread to check for any other 'deriding'.

Lazy southern trollster.

[scumdog]

Lazy southern trollster.

Aw c'mon, we all have an off day now and then....

[Toaster]

What SCU? You mean the one guy in the whole of wellington region that only has time to show up and take photos. The police admit themselves that the SCU can't front up to court with any meaningful input.

Well, Ive seen SCU in court in Auckland, the one particular SCU guy was well experienced (16 years in SCU) and gave evidence against a cop I went thru college with... a cop who crashed after drink driving. He was hung out to dry and it ended his career. Sad, but he paid the price, career gone and all and multiple convictions to his name. Although I attended my own mates crash, I was kept away from the investigation becasue the boss up there wanted a proper independent investigation at an SCU level even though it was not even close to a fatality. There was no quarter given there at all.

[Smifffy]

That's the spirit.

Yup, the spirit of not all cops are fucktards even if some are, and the spirit of admitting when I've made an error.

You should try it some time.

[peasea]

Sad.

No it's fuckin' not, it's cause for celebration.

Sheesh. Drunk driving cop? Do me a favour, sad it isn't.

[rastuscat]

Great!!

Who measures these distances to a degree of accuracy that may be relied upon in a court of law?


Funny !! I sometimes enforce the following too close law, and it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

What we do is halve the distance that is legally required, and anyone closer than that is written a ticket. So at 50 km/h the required distance is 20 metres, and we only enforce those who are closer than 10 metres. A Commodore is 4.5 metres long, so if I see a gap that I can't fit 2 commodores in, the ticket is written.

I don't know anyone who enforces the following too close law 1 metre less than required, as it's too hard to judge accurately. Basically, there are enough people not even leaving half the required distance, we don't have to start looking at the marginal ones. Sad really.

[Smifffy]

Funny !! I sometimes enforce the following too close law, and it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

What we do is halve the distance that is legally required, and anyone closer than that is written a ticket. So at 50 km/h the required distance is 20 metres, and we only enforce those who are closer than 10 metres. A Commodore is 4.5 metres long, so if I see a gap that I can't fit 2 commodores in, the ticket is written.

I don't know anyone who enforces the following too close law 1 metre less than required, as it's too hard to judge accurately. Basically, there are enough people not even leaving half the required distance, we don't have to start looking at the marginal ones. Sad really.

Like shooting fish in a barrel eh Rosco?

Have you ever tried to fit those two commodores into a gap? Whilst mobile?

I think cameras in patrol cars could fix this easy.

[Max Preload]

You really are lolable.

Judging my ability to stop within the distance to my vanishing point is something I'm always doing.

Blind crests and blind corners are always treated in a 'what if' manner.

Twat.

I'm quite honestly surprirsed you don't get rear-ended. (I mean on the road, not 'recreationally'...)

[DIN PELENDA]

70 pages of talk, how about turn turn up to Paul Brown funeral tomorrow ?

[Horney1]

My maths eludes me to but I figure the cop would need to do about 200km/hr to catch the speeding car within 2 minutes and 5 kilometers (given a 30 second lead and instantaneous acceleration to 200km/hr). He could do it in about 1 minute and 2.5km/hr if he did ~300km/hr.

My understanding is that police are TRAINED to not think ( :gob: hahaha, of course) but rather to act. i.e. to take the guesswork out of the equation the thinking is already done on training day. Maybe their training manual could be ammended to include a session on "A car is speeding in the other direction, ***DON'T U-TURN***, STOP, LOOK, ***DON'T U-TURN**** , FIND A SAFE PLACE TO TURN "! These are the same people that want to run around my and your neighbourhoods at night with live ammunition in guns!!! :2guns: Maybe they should run many more refresher courses of BASIC training to.

I wouldn't give a rats arse if the cop psych'd out after this either. The only problem is that whether we want to or not we will all take very good care of him financially! Grrr.

What a waste of a life to be taken out by a cop wanting to "keep our roads safe". :angry:
It IS CERTAIN that on this occassion the roads would have been safer without the police trying to intervene a speeding driver. I assume the speeding vehicle got home without incident as they probably do most of the time.... It's time less law emphasis was put on speeding...

[crazyhorse]

Its a sad thing to have occured yet again. Lets hope they make some changes to their protocol and this does not happen to anyone else. My thoughts will be with Paul's family and friends today

[PrincessBandit]

Like shooting fish in a barrel eh Rosco?

Have you ever tried to fit those two commodores into a gap? Whilst mobile?

I think cameras in patrol cars could fix this easy.

I'd like to think that experience with judging distances would get pretty good when your'e doing it all the time, so it's not completely unreasonable to accept that it can be done.
The issue of cameras in patrol cars is a good one, but again $$$ come into the equation and very few here (I'm sure) would want to contribute to the cost of it. Hell it might even mean that they get done - with evidence they can't wriggle out of. Also, there will always be situations where "the camera wasn't facing the right direction to show what happened" even if footage can give a reasonable indication of what might have happened.

[Swoop]

and also, that there was only 60m visibility when the u-turn was initiated
Well, measuring the distance from the car to the crest of the hill should be easily obtainable by SCU and that should be accurate within a few metres. Dunno about the speed of the bike, unless someone asks the rider.

The local with the "calibrated hearing" is not accurate, as we know.

[MSTRS]

But surely if the issuing officer was present, and was pursuing a policy of improved road safety, then you would have been stopped and issued with the infringement notice prior to colliding with the vehicle/object in front?


No, why would he? As I was observing the law in leaving an adequate following distance. What he wouldn't know (until after the crash) was whether my brakes were good and/or I was paying attention.

[Katman]

I'm quite honestly surprirsed you don't get rear-ended. (I mean on the road, not 'recreationally'...)

It shouldn't come as surprising.

The suggestions made that it would require speeds as low as 30kph to achieve that stopping abiliity are nonsense.

The mere fact that consideration is given to the idea that there may be something over that blind crest or around that blind corner shortens the reaction time dramatically.

Speed then only needs to be kept at a generally accepted 'sensible' level.

[alan_w]

sorry about late entry first time here.

I was doing some mathematics on the cop/motorcycle crash and made a slightly interesting discovery, which DOES NOT BLAME ONE OR THE OTHER DUE TO A MILLION OTHER FACTORS but does have some interesting implications for our riding:

Assuming (1) the cop was 70m from the crest of the hill
(2) ‘standard’ conditions for stopping exist such as dry and level road with normal surface
(3) the rider sees the car as he gets to the hill crest and has a standard reaction time

Then if a biker was doing 100 km/h he/she could have completely stopped around 3-8m from the car.
If he had been doing 150 km/h and the same conditions exist then he would have hit the cop car at roughly 125 km/h.

wow! Especially considering that you cannot brake as hard on a downhill slope, non ideal road conditions may exist etc! That extra 50 km/h at the crest makes a shit load of difference 70m down the road.

food for thought, even if being aware of the possibility does shorten reaction time

[Katman]

The sad fact is that far too many motorcyclists (and, for that matter, road users in general) do not ride/drive giving anywhere near enough consideration to 'what if' scenarios.

If assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups, complacency is the father.

[MSTRS]

The sad fact is that far too many motorcyclists (and, for that matter, road users in general) do not ride/drive giving anywhere near enough consideration to 'what if' scenarios.

Some, no doubt, never learned that 'skill'. Or have never had it demonstrated (shall we say?). Just like some go around being the 'what if' and have been lucky. So far. Or not...
Even though it shouldn't be...It's all a roll of the dice, for the most part.

[Pixie]

"Safer Communities Together"

Right?

Better work stories?

[Coldrider]

I've noticed that some motorists approaching road works, are very slow at registering the fact that a vehicle in front of them may be stopped or close to stationary, even though they have seen the vehicle in front of them for quite a few seconds, when the penny drops that the countryside is not moving about that vehicle. Screeeeeh, I have been rear ended at such a place, brake lights and LED spoiler lights must be blinding.

[scumdog]

I've noticed that some motorists approaching road works, are very slow at registering the fact that a vehicle in front of them may be stopped or close to stationary, even though they have seen the vehicle in front of them for quite a few seconds, when the penny drops that the countryside is not moving about that vehicle. Screeeeeh, I have been rear ended at such a place, brake lights and LED spoiler lights must be blinding.

That's why I always 'pump' my brakes in those situations- hopefully the flashing brake lights DO get their attention and stop them ploughing into the rear of my bike/car whatever.

[scumdog]

The sad fact is that far too many motorcyclists (and, for that matter, road users in general) do not ride/drive giving anywhere near enough consideration to 'what if' scenarios.

If assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups, complacency is the father.

Woulda given you bling for that post if I could.

Spot on.

[MSTRS]

I've noticed that some motorists approaching road works, are very slow at registering the fact that a vehicle in front of them may be stopped or close to stationary, even though they have seen the vehicle in front of them for quite a few seconds, when the penny drops that the countryside is not moving about that vehicle. Screeeeeh, I have been rear ended at such a place, brake lights and LED spoiler lights must be blinding.

Which shows how much attention people REALLY give to their driving...
Me...I don't brake (much) except when I'm stopping. Monkey behind doesn't see brakelights...

[Pixie]

Unfortunately the average ( bad ) kiwi driver probably doesn't see anything wrong with the cop's manoeuvre .
I am always amazed when I see ( and I have seen it many times) some idiot making a U-turn in heavy traffic,50 meters from a roundabout that would have afforded a safe alternative to achieve the same result.
Brains not engaged

[Coldrider]

Yes, but it takes longer to mind process something that is becoming an obstacle, rather than what presents itself as an immediate obstacle, thus increasing reaction times.

[Pixie]

There's only 3 people that might know exactly what happened:

1 of them is dead - RIP
1 them was so traumatised he was unable to operate a cellphone
1 them is a mysterious civilian passenger



The mysterious passenger was Tony Bliss gathering real world experience of RAM and GER

[bogan]

I'd like to think that experience with judging distances would get pretty good when your'e doing it all the time, so it's not completely unreasonable to accept that it can be done.
The issue of cameras in patrol cars is a good one, but again $$$ come into the equation and very few here (I'm sure) would want to contribute to the cost of it. Hell it might even mean that they get done - with evidence they can't wriggle out of. Also, there will always be situations where "the camera wasn't facing the right direction to show what happened" even if footage can give a reasonable indication of what might have happened.

I don't think $s comes into it too much, we seem happy enough to buy them the latest holdens :sick:, cameras aren't much in comparison. And they can do a lot, the UK has had ANPR for years now, one could even argue that better tech means you need less cops in the first place. I think it's more NZ's inability to change infrastructure etc to keep up with the times, seen in a number of industries.

[Pixie]

No-one denies they need to clean their act up in certain areas and the evidence may point to the police car being as you said. But this thread is also an insight into how nasty people can be, thats one of the regretable reactions.
Ive also also had a good relationship with the police, have only had traffic infringements and have never tried to intimidate them. On most occassions if you treat people with respect you usually get respect back

Maybe some are just sick of "do as we say not as we do" road safety bullshit?

[Smifffy]

The mysterious passenger was Tony Bliss gathering real world experience of RAM and GER

Is that a fact?

[Pixie]

Is that a fact?

Sure,
See my post in the RAM thread about Bliss being an alien economist

[Smifffy]

Sure,
See my post in the RAM thread about Bliss being an alien economist

I'm aware of who Tony Bliss is, but is it true that he was the mystery passenger on a Sunday afternoon fact-finding joyride, or were you just taking the piss?

[MarkH]

The sad fact is that far too many motorcyclists (and, for that matter, road users in general) do not ride/drive giving anywhere near enough consideration to 'what if' scenarios.

If assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups, complacency is the father.

I have to agree with that, it's hard to deny. I would also add to the road users in general also the police patrolling the roads - do that give enough consideration to 'what if' scenarios like 'what if a vehicle came over that crest as I tried to turn my car around to chase the speeder'.

[scumdog]

I don't think $s comes into it too much, we seem happy enough to buy them the latest holdens :sick:, cameras aren't much in comparison. And they can do a lot, the UK has had ANPR for years now, one could even argue that better tech means you need less cops in the first place. I think it's more NZ's inability to change infrastructure etc to keep up with the times, seen in a number of industries.

Of course having a few million more people is a good thing to help pay for ANPR etc...

[Max Preload]

It shouldn't come as surprising.

Well, it does come as surprising. Merely buttoning off when travelling at the speed limit is often enough to end up with someone right behind you with NZ's standard of driving. Speeding has always been safer, if not for your wallet.

[bogan]

Of course having a few million more people is a good thing to help pay for ANPR etc...

so how much is it then?

[blackdog]

The issue of cameras in patrol cars is a good one, but again $$$ come into the equation and very few here (I'm sure) would want to contribute to the cost of it. Hell it might even mean that they get done - with evidence they can't wriggle out of.

easily covered i would have thought, with the difference in cost between a commodore and a vectra.

[bogan]

easily covered i would have thought, with the difference in cost between a commodore and a vectra.

or get a toyata and save on repairs as well, the new ones are known for being a bit quick at times :shifty:

[SPman]

On most occassions if you treat people with respect you usually get respect back
Yes - when it comes to traffic police, they normally, respectfully, hand me a ticket

[Muppet]

Yes - when it comes to traffic police, they normally, respectfully, hand me a ticket

That's because people ignore warnings. You obviously get stopped a lot for you to say "they normally.....hand me a ticket".

[avgas]

easily covered i would have thought, with the difference in cost between a commodore and a vectra.
There is one?

[avgas]

Unfortunately the average ( bad ) kiwi driver probably doesn't see anything wrong with the cop's manoeuvre .
I am always amazed when I see ( and I have seen it many times) some idiot making a U-turn in heavy traffic,50 meters from a roundabout that would have afforded a safe alternative to achieve the same result.
Brains not engaged
I am amazed at those who think a) horn is attached to breaks or b) horn is attached to mega-lazer that clears the path in front of you.
Some even ride motorbikes.

[SPman]

That's because people ignore warnings. You obviously get stopped a lot for you to say "they normally.....hand me a ticket".
Not particularly often, but, over 40 yrs or so, it all adds up.

[miloking]

There is one?

Yeah there is and even german peasant police units use opel vectras etc. (meaning they are "good cars"...but i used that term loosely) so not sure why we need $50K+ cars for police here....

http://www.holden.co.nz/vehicle/commodore/sv6/price.html

vs something like this

http://www.holden.co.nz/vehicle/epica/cdx/price.html

Almost $20K difference!!!! thats a lot of on board cameras and "cheese cutter" barriers removed!!!

or to translate it to terms cops will understand, almost 20,000 Dougnuts with every police car...how does that sound Indoo and Scumdog? :D

[blackdog]

There is one?

sv6 $54,900

epica (don't do vectra anymore) 2.5lv6 $34,890

very similar performance too

[rastuscat]

sv6 $54,900

epica (don't do vectra anymore) 2.5lv6 $34,890

very similar performance too

You are assuming that they pay the full retail, which they don't. But I guess that if the fleet discount was applied to the Epica too, you're right.

[miloking]

You are assuming that they pay the full retail, which they don't. But I guess that if the fleet discount was applied to the Epica too, you're right.

He is right! And there would be further savings in servicing and fuel cost!

[Coldrider]

The Commodores are leased, not owned.

[miloking]

The Commodores are leased, not owned.

Hmm interesting, didnt know that...point is though, that epica is still cheaper to buy/lease right?

[blackdog]

a lease agreement is exactly the same as a hire purchase, with the exception that a price is agreed on what the vehicle will be worth in three years time, and that residual value is what would be left on an hp as a balloon payment to keep the car. (ie/ the cars wholesale value is the same as the balance left on the hp)

[Coldrider]

Not necessarily, Holden competes against Ford to get the contracts, the contract will only make the leasor rich, not the Government or vehicle supplier.
A vehicle worth is less than half its retail price (to make).

[blackdog]

no one ever pays retail.

what a vehicle costs to make is totally irrelevant, whereas wholesale value is not.

[Coldrider]

no one ever pays retail.

what a vehicle costs to make is totally irrelevant, whereas wholeasle value is not.Capital budgeting is not covered in 101.

[Mom]

Fleet Lease. No one owns fleets of vehicles anymore.

[Coldrider]

Hmm interesting, didnt know that...point is though, that epica is still cheaper to buy/lease right?Only to the average person.
There will be reliabilty and performance standards to met be met as well, along with associated penalties of non conformance and breaches of contract.

[miloking]

Only to the average person.
There will be reliabilty and performance standards to met be met as well, along with associated penalties of non conformance and breaches of contract.

Fair enough, but ok do you think Epica would be less reliable? (i guess could be since its cheaper)...but what do you mean by performance standard? Top speed? 0-100? ...ummm Turning circle? :D

[Coldrider]

Fair enough, but ok do you think Epica would be less reliable? (i guess could be since its cheaper)...but what do you mean by performance standard? Top speed? 0-100? ...ummm Turning circle? :DDunno but there would be a high criteria, but obviously the british police and others are happy with small cars.
I think if the commodore and epica were put on a 3 year life cycle discounted cashflow model there wouldn't be much difference in the lease option, and holden would put the Commy up as a loss leader anyway.
But hey, how is this related to the topic again?

[blackdog]

the savings in fuel consumption alone would add up to millions annually

[miloking]

Dunno but there would be a high criteria, but obviously the british police and others are happy with small cars.
I think if the commodore and epica were put on a 3 year life cycle discounted cashflow model there wouldn't be much difference in the lease option, and holden would put the Commy up as a loss leader anyway.
But hey, how is this related to the topic again?

I dont know actualy i didnt start this police "cage" topic...something to do with "proving blame->on board cameras->cost-> buy a cheaper car" :)

[bogan]

I dont know actualy i didnt start this police "cage" topic...something to do with "proving blame->on board cameras->cost-> buy a cheaper car" :)

I'm still waiting to hear what the price of cameras or ANPR systems actually are.

[Coldrider]

the savings in fuel consumption alone would add up to millions annuallybut that would be just one criteria, would the leasor or manufacturer back full performance up to 120,000kms with donut munchers abusing the shit out of the cars, suspension setups, load carrying ability etc, idling stationary for so long the engines cook etc

[miloking]

but that would be just one criteria, would the leasor or manufacturer back full performance up to 120,000kms with donut munchers abusing the shit out of the cars, suspension setups, load carrying ability etc, idling stationary for so long the engines cook etc

true, they do get some serious beating those commodores...epica would probably fall apart. Not to mention they need to comfortably fit 3 large rapists/bank robbers on back seat..

[Coldrider]

true, they do get some serious beating those commodores...epica would probably fall apart.epica is a rebadged daewoo I think, Korean cars, politics, policy ....

[blackdog]

so substitute with mondeo/camry/whatever, any of them would be more suitable/cost effective.........

[Coldrider]

so substitute with mondeo/camry/whatever, any of them would be more suitable/cost effective.........I personally don't give a fuck, merely that there is more of a process involved than being ignorant, just look at the LAV purchases for one thing, then the ammo purchased and returned for a loss because it didn't fit the armanents involved.

[rastuscat]

Polis have a generalist car policy. The cars generally have to be able to carry 5 people in full kit. The other thing is the need to carry a prisoner in the rear seat with a cop either side.

Whatever, this rules out all but the biggest cars, and means a larger turning circle, more 3 point turns and longer to make a u-turn and pursue.

I reckon they need a quick car, not a big and fast one. Like a Wrx, or Evo.

Just my thoughts.

[bogan]

Polis have a generalist car policy. The cars generally have to be able to carry 5 people in full kit. The other thing is the need to carry a prisoner in the rear seat with a cop either side.

Whatever, this rules out all but the biggest cars, and means a larger turning circle, more 3 point turns and longer to make a u-turn and pursue.

I reckon they need a quick car, not a big and fast one. Like a Wrx, or Evo.

Just my thoughts.

Have you seen the UK traffic cop program about the specialist road taskforce they have WRX's EVO's, a Helicopter, and ANPR stuff, needless to say, the crims get owned :D

[blackdog]

Polis have a generalist car policy. The cars generally have to be able to carry 5 people in full kit. The other thing is the need to carry a prisoner in the rear seat with a cop either side.



dimensions

commodore width 1899mm

camry width 1820mm

so 7.9cm difference, how many donuts is that?

[miloking]

Polis have a generalist car policy. The cars generally have to be able to carry 5 people in full kit. The other thing is the need to carry a prisoner in the rear seat with a cop either side.

Whatever, this rules out all but the biggest cars, and means a larger turning circle, more 3 point turns and longer to make a u-turn and pursue.

I reckon they need a quick car, not a big and fast one. Like a Wrx, or Evo.

Just my thoughts.

In UK they have Evos and WRX for the special pursuit units...they also have police hayabusas.

[miloking]

dimensions

commodore width 1899mm

camry width 1820mm

so 7.9cm difference, how many donuts is that?

Thats one donut at most....

[Fluffy Cat]

In UK they have Evos and WRX for the special pursuit units...they also have police hayabusas.

Yeah,......but how many?. One Hayabusa, 4 wrx's?, not many you can bet. And not all forces have them. They are for show and deterrent purposes only.
They mostly use mid size cars 1.6l escorts etc for your local force and bigger cars similar to the holdens for traffic units.
Imagine the carnage here if the cops had Hayabusas and wrx's. Dead and maimed cops everywhere.

[miloking]

Imagine the carnage here if the cops had Hayabusas and wrx's. Dead and maimed cops everywhere.

Ahhhh...you make it sound like a bad thing :)

yeah i know its mostly just for show... and probably only the ones that issue most tickets get to drive them.

[Fluffy Cat]

Your right didn't think of it like that!....
More Hayabusa's for them then:yes:

[Coldrider]

Napier City council snakes had a GS1000S back in those days.

[Whynot]

In UK they have Evos and WRX for the special pursuit units...they also have police hayabusas.

I have been riding almost daily in the UK for the last 3 and a bit years. I have only seen a one stationary highway patrol type car that i can remember .... it was parked up on a side road just around a slight bend. Naturally my NZ instinct kicked in and i immediately went for the brakes. As i went past i noticed there was a sign next to the car saying "road closed".

Cops in the UK as far as i can tell are not bothered with catching people speeding (90mph on the motorways is the norm). That what they have the fixed cameras for. Although they then go and paint them bright yellow and put lines on the road so you always know where they are.

[miloking]

I have been riding almost daily in the UK for the last 3 and a bit years. I have only seen a one stationary highway patrol type car that i can remember .... it was parked up on a side road just around a slight bend. Naturally my NZ instinct kicked in and i immediately went for the brakes. As i went past i noticed there was a sign next to the car saying "road closed".

Cops in the UK as far as i can tell are not bothered with catching people speeding (90mph on the motorways is the norm). That what they have the fixed cameras for. Although they then go and paint them bright yellow and put lines on the road so you always know where they are.

You see, post like this are not helpful at all...it just makes me hate the local money collectors even more! :) Oh well..maybe one day we will also have autobahns, and decent speed limit and driver education/testing...

[Whynot]

You see, post like this are not helpful at all...it just makes me hate the local money collectors even more! :)

Its not that good, they collect the money off you in other ways .... e.g. insurance

[miloking]

Its not that good, they collect the money off you in other ways .... e.g. insurance

Kind of like paying for "protection" to your local friendly mob?

[ynot slow]

Haven't read 70 odd pages but my thoughts on stoopid manouvre(sic) from orificer was there seemed to be enough room to pull onto the verge and spin the car around with 2 wheels on dirt etc with quick flick of accelerator,hell my XR6 can be spun round albeit on pea metal on a small road(wife did it and was impressed)sure no pea metal but surely that would be an idea,although the curb and chanel showed about 50-100mts from crash site.

[Pixie]

I'm aware of who Tony Bliss is, but is it true that he was the mystery passenger on a Sunday afternoon fact-finding joyride, or were you just taking the piss?

Taking The Piss

[Pixie]

Dunno but there would be a high criteria, but obviously the british police and others are happy with small cars.
I think if the commodore and epica were put on a 3 year life cycle discounted cashflow model there wouldn't be much difference in the lease option, and holden would put the Commy up as a loss leader anyway.
But hey, how is this related to the topic again?

Just think how bad some cops' small cock syndrome would be if they were forced into small cars as well.
Let the baby have it's aussie tank.I think we may be better off for it.

[Pixie]

Haven't read 70 odd pages but my thoughts on stoopid manouvre(sic) from orificer was there seemed to be enough room to pull onto the verge and spin the car around with 2 wheels on dirt etc with quick flick of accelerator,hell my XR6 can be spun round albeit on pea metal on a small road(wife did it and was impressed)sure no pea metal but surely that would be an idea,although the curb and chanel showed about 50-100mts from crash site.

Traction control

[scumdog]

dimensions

commodore width 1899mm

camry width 1820mm

so 7.9cm difference, how many donuts is that?

So how about boot space - woulda a Camry have room for a gun-box, crash kit, road-cones, extra battery (to cope with loads when parked up with the disco lights running) 1st aid kit, pepper-spray kit...and duty bags for the five guys inside as well.

And even if it does, from experience none of the front-wheel drives tested could turn around on country roads/ narrow streets like a Commodore can (think: even more 3-point turns being done if using front-whel drives.)

No problem with a Vectra sized car being used for non-essential duties - cops do have them anyway but generally the 'non-essential types' get hand-me-downs after xxx km - and these cars can be pressed back into front-line duties if there's an emergencies/need.

My 2cents worth m'lord....

[scumdog]

Traction control

And sure, you can turn it off - but if you bin it there's no hiding the on-board computers indication that it was off when you crashed.

And then starts a long sorry saga as you try to explain how you crashed whil the traction-control was off.....which you know you are not allowed to turn off...

[jahrasti]

And sure, you can turn it off - but if you bin it there's no hiding the on-board computers indication that it was off when you crashed.

And then starts a long sorry saga as you try to explain how you crashed whil the traction-control was off.....which you know you are not allowed to turn off...

Because if you did turn it off and someone one here saw a power induced turn to spin you around, they would put up a thread about Police are worse than boy racers with there sustained loss of traction yada yada blah blah.

[blackdog]

So how about boot space - woulda a Camry have room for a gun-box, crash kit, road-cones, extra battery (to cope with loads when parked up with the disco lights running) 1st aid kit, pepper-spray kit...and duty bags for the five guys inside as well.

And even if it does, from experience none of the front-wheel drives tested could turn around on country roads/ narrow streets like a Commodore can (think: even more 3-point turns being done if using front-whel drives.)

No problem with a Vectra sized car being used for non-essential duties - cops do have them anyway but generally the 'non-essential types' get hand-me-downs after xxx km - and these cars can be pressed back into front-line duties if there's an emergencies/need.

My 2cents worth m'lord....

now we are really down to splitting hairs

camry turning circle... 11.8m (much tighter with controlled application of the handbrake)
commodore ... 11.4m

luggage capacity

camry ...432 litres
commodore ...445 litres

i just cant see how 13 litres of boot space and 40cm in turning circle outweigh the benefits....

i would even venture to suggest that in the instance we have been debating, a handbrake turned camry would have prevented the entire situation

[scumdog]

now we are really down to splitting hairs

camry turning circle... 11.8m
commodore ... 11.4m

luggage capacity

camry ...432 litres
commodore ...445 litres

i just cant see how 13 litres of boot space and 40cm in turning circle outweigh the benefits....

I forgot to add that the fwd car seemed to fall apart a bit easier.

Not that the 'dores are that flash either but they seem to hold together better.

And 'paper figures' can be deceptive compared to the 'real world'...usable space and all that.

[blackdog]

I forgot to add that the fwd car seemed to fall apart a bit easier.

Not that the 'dores are that flash either but they seem to hold together better.

And 'paper figures' can be deceptive compared to the 'real world'...usable space and all that.

:rofl: i challenge you to find any commodore that 'holds together' better than a camry. or even a mondeo for that fact

[scumdog]

:rofl: i challenge you to find any commodore that 'holds together' better than a camry. or even a mondeo for that fact

You haven't seen the way we use them!:shifty:

Rest assured, other brands have been tried but the old 'dore keps us going and I guess the bean-counters must be happy with Fleet-Lease and the cost of running the cars.

BTW: the 'other brands' seemed to be more thirsty when used hard, when just cruising they were pretty good (ideal for a family man) but boot them for a bit and hoo-boy, the needle on the fuel guage created a sonic boom as it whipped back across the dial!:yes:

[blackdog]

You haven't seen the way we use them!:shifty:

Rest assured, other brands have been tried but the old 'dore keps us going and I guess the bean-counters must be happy with Fleet-Lease and the cost of running the cars.

BTW: the 'other brands' seemed to be more thirsty when used hard, when just cruising they were pretty good (ideal for a family man) but boot them for a bit and hoo-boy, the needle on the fuel guage created a sonic boom as it whipped back across the dial!:yes:

you aren't doing yourself any favours here re:-cops driving responsibly

we do see the way you use them, and that is what we have a problem with.

[scumdog]

you aren't doing yourself any favours here re:-cops driving responsibly

we do see the way you use them, and that is what we have a problem with.

So what you're saying is we should drive more sensibly and then would be able to use cheaper ( and less practical at times) cars?

(And how we 'use' the present cars is not always just to do a U-turn on front of a motorcycle)

[blackdog]

So what you're saying is we should drive more sensibly and then would be able to use cheaper ( and less practical at times) cars?

(And how we 'use' the present cars is not always just to do a U-turn on front of a motorcycle)

i am saying you should use MORE practical cars. with the exception of australia and the us no other country in the world uses commodore class vehicles for policing. our roads and requirements would be more closely aligned with what they use in the uk or europe.

commodure fuel consumption 11.8litres/100km
camry 8.8litres/100km

it is you that has implied that you don't always drive sensibly

[scumdog]

i am saying you should use MORE practical cars. with the exception of australia and the us no other country in the world uses commodore class vehicles for policing. our roads and requirements would be more closely aligned with what they use in the uk or europe.

commodure fuel consumption 11.8litres/100km
camry 8.8litres/100km

it is you that has implied that you don't always drive sensibly

Yeah, I guess tootling along at 110kph to a violent domestic makes more economic sense........("Sorry your daughter has been beaten to death but hey we got under 10 litres per 100km!)

(And down here even 'in a bit of a hurry' you can still end up with a 40mins or more trip to get to parts of our territory)

[blackdog]

i'm not sure that you're sarcasm is warranted

is it better to get to your 1 fatality domestic incident late or to cause a 3 fatality accident on the way from driving beyond your capabilities?

[scumdog]

i'm not sure that you're sarcasm is warranted

is it better to get to your 1 fatality domestic incident late or to cause a 3 fatality accident on the way from driving beyond your capabilities?

What I said was that fwds are heavy on gas if pushed.

And you responded showing figures not relavant to a car being driven hard.
Hence my comment.

And I'm getting bored with this thread it's interupting my e-bay searches....

[blackdog]

What I said was that fwds are heavy on gas if pushed.

And you responded showing figures not relavant to a car being driven hard.
Hence my comment.

And I'm getting bored with this thread it's interupting my e-bay searches....

i might be able to take you seriously if you could quote some facts, rather than just your opinion that a smaller engined/lighter vehicle will use more fuel when driven faster. goes against common sense and my experience, but i will happily accept your figures if you can prove them.

[scumdog]

i might be able to take you seriously if you could quote some facts, rather than just your opinion that a smaller engined/lighter vehicle will use more fuel when driven faster. goes against common sense and my experience, but i will happily accept your figures if you can prove them.

I have not bothered to write the figures down but take it from me, when hammering a Nissan Mitsi or whatever 'other' brand they are invariably more thirsty than a Commode driven in the same manner - and it has a bigger motor. This is based on personal experience

FYI: I ain't a Commode fan, blue oval is my logo of choice.

[blackdog]

I have not bothered to write the figures down .....


so we'll take your word for it then

[scumdog]

so we'll take your word for it then

Yup, I got no axe to grind, if I thought a Camry/Maxima whatever WAS ideal I'd say so.:yes:

[MaxB]

i am saying you should use MORE practical cars. with the exception of australia and the us no other country in the world uses commodore class vehicles for policing. our roads and requirements would be more closely aligned with what they use in the uk or europe.
snip.........

Err, the Ford Crown Victoria is the US patrol car of choice, all 4.6 litres and 2 tonnes of it.
In fact 100 of millions of people round the world have their roads patrolled with these type of cars.

It may also interest you to know that the acknowledged world leaders in adapted law enforcement models are BMW and they sell a lot of units into Europe, mainly in a traffic role.

[blackdog]

Err, the Ford Crown Victoria is the US patrol car of choice, all 4.6 litres and 2 tonnes of it.
In fact 100 of millions of people round the world have their roads patrolled with these type of cars.

It may also interest you to know that the acknowledged world leaders in adapted law enforcement models are BMW and they sell a lot of units into Europe, mainly in a traffic role.

i said aus and the US................

and 3 series beemers would be fine with me....although prob cost prohibitive over here

[marty]

Not 3 - 5 series. Wagons mostly.

UK cops use small cars in towns - for good reason. The pursuit/highway cops use Vauxhalls/Range Rovers/BMW's/helicopters etc.

And before you suggest we should have more helicopters - at $2500/hr for a twin engine Squirrel or similar, who's gonna pay for that? I reckon a fleet of Cessna Bird Dogs whould be the shiz though :) - loitering around the sky using video and timer to capture average speed on a marked course....., then following the car/bike til it stopped for gas/donuts whatever.....

[Muppet]

Not 3 - 5 series. Wagons mostly.

UK cops use small cars in towns - for good reason. The pursuit/highway cops use Vauxhalls/Range Rovers/BMW's/helicopters etc.

And before you suggest we should have more helicopters - at $2500/hr for a twin engine Squirrel or similar, who's gonna pay for that? I reckon a fleet of Cessna Bird Dogs whould be the shiz though :) - loitering around the sky using video and timer to capture average speed on a marked course....., then following the car/bike til it stopped for gas/donuts whatever.....

Police were offered use of a light aircraft (the one that can fly at bugger all speed and lands on the snow) and a pilot for nowt and they turned it down many moons ago. The offer was made by the pilot himself who was a cop. It's true that you just can't even give it away. The Police were also offered BMW cars for fuck-all by BMW, but turned it down saying the public wouldn't be impressed if police drove around in luxury cars. And in Europe what do cabbies drive? Mercs and Beemers. These are facts. I can't give you figures, bar graphs or power point presentations on your internets.

[Spearfish]

What happened to the sky hawks? a few rounds across the escapees path should induce some either brown adrenalin or brown cowards custard.....with chunks.... but then I understand a dose of tazer tends to have the same effect on the dignity retention mussels... I don't envy a cops lot taking a tazered scumbag back to the zoo pens after that. Windows down all the way!!

[Smifffy]

Yeah, I guess tootling along at 110kph to a violent domestic makes more economic sense........("Sorry your daughter has been beaten to death but hey we got under 10 litres per 100km!)

(And down here even 'in a bit of a hurry' you can still end up with a 40mins or more trip to get to parts of our territory)

So Bridgeman & the other clown were on their way to a domestic now?

[marty]

Police were offered use of a light aircraft (the one that can fly at bugger all speed and lands on the snow) and a pilot for nowt and they turned it down many moons ago. The offer was made by the pilot himself who was a cop. It's true that you just can't even give it away. The Police were also offered BMW cars for fuck-all by BMW, but turned it down saying the public wouldn't be impressed if police drove around in luxury cars. And in Europe what do cabbies drive? Mercs and Beemers. These are facts. I can't give you figures, bar graphs or power point presentations on your internets.

I know the cop who made that offer - unfortunately it was for his own hour building purposes, and he did not have the legal requirements (Pt135 chater operations) to carry out that task. I do Police flying occasionally - it is all done (obviously) above board, under a proper charter agreement. Unfortunatley due to a few loud complainers, airborne traffic patrols up the Coromandel and Hauraki Plains over the summer break will probably not re-occur.

People whinge about a Commodore - you think a BMW is gonna shut them up? The type of car doesn't change the decisions made in it.

[Patrick]

So Bridgeman & the other clown were on their way to a domestic now?

No. Apparently, if this cop was in a Camry or MItsi or whatever else, other than a Common whore, this crash wouldn't have happened.

Funny how ones words can be changed to suit a cause.

[bogan]

People whinge about a Commodore - you think a BMW is gonna shut them up? The type of car doesn't change the decisions made in it.

I beleive the discussion about cars started cos some asserted the police could not afford in-car cameras, or ANPR systems. To which the question was asked why not get cheaper cars with such systems. And having cameras definitely would change the type of decisions.

[Patrick]

74 pages and over 1100 posts. Conspiracy theories and coverups, slobberings from the anti cop brigade, the works... interspersed with some common sense for good measaure, from both sides too I will add...... It aint a bad read actually.

There are policies in place. Why it wasn't heeded in this case, who knows. Too many what ifs and maybes.

Comments changed to suit someones agenda... doesn't matter what one says really, it will be turned into something it isn't. Just like my post above, relating to a comment, turning that into something it isn't.... easy really.....

Just like the comment about this 33 year cop veteran doing this thousands of times... I read it as being this cop doing U turns thousands of times in his career without incident. Others made it out to be that this dangerous cop had a near miss or caused accidents every time................

I'll go on record to say it was a bad turning point. I'll go on to say he will be charged. No slower than anyone else, no quicker.... just how it is..... Coverups and conspiracy theories will be gone, but hey, those who made those dumb arsed claims won't be back on here saying they were wrong.... just like the Bridgeman affair.... what a coverup and whitewash that turned out to be..... NOT!!!!

I'll go on to say that if motorbike rider attitudes, (such as going as fast as they like when they like, not being able to stop in the clear distance of road ahead, for example........), does not change, then there will continue to be more biker down RIP threads.

Speed is a factor. So is shit driving, such as the cause in this case - being the U turn. The factors are the speed of the ute and the speed of the motorbike. Like it or not, if the bike was speeding, and as I wasn't there, I don't know nor do I point the finger, but if speed of the bike IS a factor, then there were "risks" taken by the rider. Also by the Ute driver and also by the cop.

Those saying the media is on the cops side.... that'll be a first. But one can't always believe what they see in the papers..... unless it is an anti cop headline, that is....... The papers have said he was thrown 7 metres, 30 metres, 100 meters.... Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

Could it have been avoided? Sure. A bad turning place, for sure. Perhaps a bad place to speed too....... Just don't know of enough facts, but some are clear.

74 pages of some frothy rantings and some fair comment too, I will add.....

But the TWO motorcyclists killed at Easter in the Dome Valley, generated how many pages of posts and comments...?

74 pages and 1100 plus posts...? NOPE..... Cue the sound of crickets here........

May this rider rest in peace. My condolences to his family.

Sadly though, it won't be too long before there is another biker down thread.

Perhaps caused by a U turning car, driven by Joe public. BUt there won't be 74 pages and 1100 posts about it........

Who is next....?

[miloking]

Who is next....?

I was nearly "next" yesterday on a way to coro...on some poorly marked brand new chip seal section placed in a corner on the edge of a cliff! But yeah wouldnt have been anyone elses fault but mine...

BTW nice summary patrick! (i mean it actualy)

[riffer]

BTW nice summary patrick! (i mean it actualy)
Indeed. When you get rid of the emotion and look at the situation in a sober, impartial way, you'll be inclined to come up with something very similar to that post. IMHO the reason there's no charges for the officer yet is that the Police absolutely have to get their facts 100% correct or they'll be publicly crucified, no matter what the result. As we hold them to a higher standard than the rest of the public, it's right that we take the time to find out ALL the information.

[avgas]

Lets start a thread about KFC killing bikers.

[avgas]

Indeed. When you get rid of the emotion and look at the situation in a sober, impartial way, you'll be inclined to come up with something very similar to that post. IMHO the reason there's no charges for the officer yet is that the Police absolutely have to get their facts 100% correct or they'll be publicly crucified, no matter what the result. As we hold them to a higher standard than the rest of the public, it's right that we take the time to find out ALL the information.
FYI the rest of public does this on a daily basis. So if cops only stuff up once a year something tells me that stats are in their favor.

[scumdog]

So Bridgeman & the other clown were on their way to a domestic now?

Wow!

Now THERE'S a quantum leap of logic!:blink::blink::scratch:

[NighthawkNZ]

Lets start a thread about KFC killing bikers.

or a waving thread... oh wait ...

[dpex]

I trust we will all be allowed to sight the documentation supporting Officer Uey's contention that the bad-guy was doing 154Kph. His Hawke must have been locked at that speed otherwise he could not give the perp a ticket. And thus an enquiry via the OIA should reveal the truth. Perhaps Ixion might like to pursue that course.

What would be the case if...."Well bugger my gumboots! Officer H reset the Hawke at the scene on account of he decided he may as well since the cop car was facing in the right direction to catch yet another perp." Or..."The impact of the bike tore the heart out of the Hawke."

Will these be the excuses for failing to provide the official reading Officer Uey is relying upon?

It seems to me that Officer Uey could, maybe, only just, cite public safety for his bizarre actions if, in fact the perp was doing said speed.

One has to admit that Officer Uey's position would be untenable if it transpires he was looking to pull down some dude for doing 111Kph, or 120. Whereas the claimed 154 does give Officer Uey's actions a 'very' mild sense of legitimacy.

See where I'm going here with this?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Flogging a dead horse mate. We'll simply have to wait and see now.

[Toaster]

They are not required to lock the speed at all. They merely have to observe it. But this has been said many times before.

[TOTO]

I think its gonna be exactly like when they shot that guy on the motorway.

Hope I'm wrong.

[scumdog]

I trust we will all be allowed to sight the documentation supporting Officer Uey's contention that the bad-guy was doing 154Kph. His Hawke must have been locked at that speed otherwise he could not give the perp a ticket. And thus an enquiry via the OIA should reveal the truth. Perhaps Ixion might like to pursue that course.

What would be the case if...."Well bugger my gumboots! Officer H reset the Hawke at the scene on account of he decided he may as well since the cop car was facing in the right direction to catch yet another perp." Or..."The impact of the bike tore the heart out of the Hawke."

Will these be the excuses for failing to provide the official reading Officer Uey is relying upon?

It seems to me that Officer Uey could, maybe, only just, cite public safety for his bizarre actions if, in fact the perp was doing said speed.

One has to admit that Officer Uey's position would be untenable if it transpires he was looking to pull down some dude for doing 111Kph, or 120. Whereas the claimed 154 does give Officer Uey's actions a 'very' mild sense of legitimacy.

See where I'm going here with this?

No.......:no:

[p.dath]

What difference does it make how fast the oncoming vehicle was going? The fact is the officer commenced a three point turn to give chase, and a motorcyclist collided with the Police vehicle, and died.

[oldrider]

What difference does it make how fast the oncoming vehicle was going? The fact is the officer commenced a three point turn to give chase, and a motorcyclist collided with the Police vehicle, and died.

True! Oh so very true!

[Conquiztador]

What difference does it make how fast the oncoming vehicle was going? The fact is the officer commenced a three point turn to give chase, and a motorcyclist collided with the Police vehicle, and died.

So true. The reason for the turn has nothing to do with this.

[meteor]

Just reading the news.. saw this "Dozens of his motorcycle-riding friends, many not wearing helmets despite two police cars being present, led his funeral procession to Waerenga Cemetery." If it's true, why? what's the significance of not wearing a helmet in a funeral procession? Saw it a few months back on the motorway with the procession for the Waiuku biker that was killed. Can anyone explain why? or if there is a legal exemption to going lidless... not that I ever would mind, fucken crazy!

[bogan]

Just reading the news.. saw this "Dozens of his motorcycle-riding friends, many not wearing helmets despite two police cars being present, led his funeral procession to Waerenga Cemetery." If it's true, why? what's the significance of not wearing a helmet in a funeral procession? Saw it a few months back on the motorway with the procession for the Waiuku biker that was killed. Can anyone explain why? or if there is a legal exemption to going lidless... not that I ever would mind, fucken crazy!

I'm guessing to publicly show their respect/support, you can't really tell who is under a helmet. And wearing helmets is kinda like the whole speed kills campaign, if you don't crash, it doesn't make any difference, some reckon they are more likely to avoid crashes without helmets anyway.

[scumdog]

Just reading the news.. saw this "Dozens of his motorcycle-riding friends, many not wearing helmets despite two police cars being present, led his funeral procession to Waerenga Cemetery." If it's true, why? what's the significance of not wearing a helmet in a funeral procession? Saw it a few months back on the motorway with the procession for the Waiuku biker that was killed. Can anyone explain why? or if there is a legal exemption to going lidless... not that I ever would mind, fucken crazy!

Dunno, just a biker tradition, done it myself.

(Much to the shock of an ex-MOT workmate)

[98tls]

I'm guessing to publicly show their respect/support, you can't really tell who is under a helmet. And wearing helmets is kinda like the whole speed kills campaign, if you don't crash, it doesn't make any difference, some reckon they are more likely to avoid crashes without helmets anyway.

..................................

[bogan]

..................................

yeh, one day they are sure to realize targeting shit drivers is more important than those who do an extra 15kmhr on straight clear roads. Dunno if praying is gonna help but each to their own.

[SMOKEU]

Dunno, just a biker tradition, done it myself.

(Much to the shock of an ex-MOT workmate)

What?! You mean you were riding around on public roads without a helmet on?

[98tls]

yeh, one day they are sure to realize targeting shit drivers is more important than those who do an extra 15kmhr on straight clear roads. Dunno if praying is gonna help but each to their own.

That day will only come when we as voters elect a government worthy of the title,cops only follow orders like the rest of us.

[peasea]

The other thing is the need to carry a prisoner in the rear seat with a cop either side.

Whatever, this rules out all but the biggest cars.

Especially in South Auckland......

[peasea]

That day will only come when we as voters elect a government worthy of the title,cops only follow orders like the rest of us.

"Like the rest of us"........???
WTF

Hahahahahahahaha
ROFL

[DMNTD]

Just reading the news.. saw this "Dozens of his motorcycle-riding friends, many not wearing helmets despite two police cars being present, led his funeral procession to Waerenga Cemetery." If it's true, why? what's the significance of not wearing a helmet in a funeral procession? Saw it a few months back on the motorway with the procession for the Waiuku biker that was killed. Can anyone explain why? or if there is a legal exemption to going lidless... not that I ever would mind, fucken crazy!

It was true, but I still chose to wear my helmet

[bogan]

That day will only come when we as voters elect a government worthy of the title,cops only follow orders like the rest of us.

true that, but whens the last time a govt worthy of the title ran for govt?

[peasea]

It was true, but I still chose to wear my helmet

Fair enough, but it doesn't answer the question. I know it's an old-age tradition, but what's the reason?

Why go without a helmet at a biker's funeral?

[peasea]

true that, but whens the last time a govt worthy of the title ran for govt?

Ahhh, the McGillicuddy Serious Party, just the best thing ever to hit NZ politics.

[jahrasti]

yeh, one day they are sure to realize targeting shit drivers is more important than those who do an extra 15kmhr on straight clear roads. Dunno if praying is gonna help but each to their own.

Shit drivers also do 15kph over the limit, or are the cops crystal balls meant to tell him that that person will never be in an accident so they can carry on?

[98tls]

Ahhh, the McGillicuddy Serious Party, just the best thing ever to hit NZ politics.

Muldoon was worth a laugh at least,there was under his reign some wonderful loopholes for those in the rural sector.I can remember the old mans glee when in 75 (roughly) he bought over a 351 Cleveland from Stralia that was supposedly going into a jetboat to cart spraying gear (seriously) and the savings,said Cleveland went straight into an XY ute along with the GT dash/badges/grill blah blah that came with it.Nice ute.Not to mention how easy it was to turn a pallet of beer into petrol on the books.

[bogan]

Shit drivers also do 15kph over the limit, or are the cops crystal balls meant to tell him that that person will never be in an accident so they can carry on?

no, cops (due to a policy change) should just focus on the shit driver for their shit driving! Just cos its harder to measure doesn't mean it should be ignored.

[98tls]

no, cops (due to a policy change) should just focus on the shit driver for their shit driving! Just cos its harder to measure doesn't mean it should be ignored.

Who knows really,rock and a hard place i reckon.Ive three family members that are cops a mother that works at the 111 call center and a cousin that works at the police call center,only thing i will say is "walk a day in a cops shoes" i wouldnt no matter what the money.

[peasea]

no, cops (due to a policy change) should just focus on the shit driver for their shit driving! Just cos its harder to measure doesn't mean it should be ignored.

Agreed. Bad driving/failing to drive to the conditions causes injuries/death etc on the road, not just speed itself.

[peasea]

Who knows really,rock and a hard place i reckon.Ive three family members that are cops a mother that works at the 111 call center and a cousin that works at the police call center,only thing i will say is "walk a day in a cops shoes" i wouldnt no matter what the money.

Plus they smell funny...

[meteor]

What difference does it make how fast the oncoming vehicle was going? The fact is the officer commenced a three point turn to give chase, and a motorcyclist collided with the Police vehicle, and died. Far out, summarised all the facts in 80 odd pages in 2 sentences... how sensible... that's just not the KB way, shame on you.

[breakaway]

What difference does it make how fast the oncoming vehicle was going? The fact is the officer commenced a three point turn to give chase, and a motorcyclist collided with the Police vehicle, and died.

Quoted for truth.

The speed of the ute and the motorcyclist have been called into question; None of these are relevant. All that matters is piggy did something fucking stupid, and someone died from it.

[peasea]

What difference does it make how fast the oncoming vehicle was going?

The revenue to be gathered?
Priorities, man, priorities.

[scumdog]

no, cops (due to a policy change) should just focus on the shit driver for their shit driving! Just cos its harder to measure doesn't mean it should be ignored.

More mufti cars would help -people rarely do daft shit (well not knowingly anyway) when an obvious cop car is nearby.

[marty]

I trust we will all be allowed to sight the documentation supporting Officer Uey's contention that the bad-guy was doing 154Kph. His Hawke must have been locked at that speed otherwise he could not give the perp a ticket. And thus an enquiry via the OIA should reveal the truth. Perhaps Ixion might like to pursue that course.

What would be the case if...."Well bugger my gumboots! Officer H reset the Hawke at the scene on account of he decided he may as well since the cop car was facing in the right direction to catch yet another perp." Or..."The impact of the bike tore the heart out of the Hawke."

Will these be the excuses for failing to provide the official reading Officer Uey is relying upon?

It seems to me that Officer Uey could, maybe, only just, cite public safety for his bizarre actions if, in fact the perp was doing said speed.

One has to admit that Officer Uey's position would be untenable if it transpires he was looking to pull down some dude for doing 111Kph, or 120. Whereas the claimed 154 does give Officer Uey's actions a 'very' mild sense of legitimacy.

See where I'm going here with this?

WTF thinks you have the right to see anything in relation to this? If you can't figure out that a homicide investigation is underway, and anything relating to this case is highly prejudicial, then your opinion - or anyone elses outside of the investigation team - is hardly going to matter a squat.

[bogan]

More mufti cars would help -people rarey do daft shit (well not knowingly anyway) when an obvious cop car is nearby.

bit more tech would help too, red light cameras, ANPR for unreged/stolen cars. Lets face it, speed is targeted (at least in part) cos its easy to measure and prove, getting more tech to help in other areas wouldn't be a bad thing.

[scumdog]

I trust we will all be allowed to sight the documentation supporting Officer Uey's contention that the bad-guy was doing 154Kph. His Hawke must have been locked at that speed otherwise he could not give the perp a ticket.

Oh yeah, they're always posting information like that in the public arena....:shifty::rolleyes:

[bent12]

bunch of fuckwits

[marty]

bunch of fuckwits

Who? Police? Us? You and your mates?

[Taz]

Who? Police? Us? You and your mates?

Probably .

[rastuscat]

The speed of the ute and the motorcyclist have been called into question; None of these are relevant. All that matters is piggy did something fucking stupid, and someone died from it.

And that's what started this whole thread. There are 2 opposing arguments in regard to speed; that the one going fast could have stopped before hitting the bad driver (the Police car) had he been going slower, and that it is entirely the fault of the Police car.

Now, we don't know how fast the bike was going, so why are we all speculating before we know at all? The best we will ever be able to do is let the Serious Crash guys make an estimate based on the physical evidence. This is normally a pretty good estimate, but is still only an estimate.

Let's not forget that most crashes are a result of a combination of factors, rarely just one single cause. Based solely on the photos I have only seen on KB, this was truly an awful place to do a U-turn or 3 point turn. The bike may have been going too fast to be able to avoid the Police car, but we don't know. The ute is what caused the Police driver to commence the U-turn or 3 point turn, apparently exacerbated by target fixation. It's not like the Police driver was just turning to get to the next donut shop.

Until this one plays out in court (Coroners or District), we are all just speculating.

[Pixie]

More mufti cars would help -people rarely do daft shit (well not knowingly anyway) when an obvious cop car is nearby.

Well if marked cars prevent people doing "daft shit",maybe more marked cars are the answer.
After all,what is the object of the exercise?Stopping people doing "daft shit",or catching them and draining their wallets?

[Pixie]

:rofl: i challenge you to find any commodore that 'holds together' better than a camry. or even a mondeo for that fact

Made a warranty claim for a comodore that burst it's auto trans - they tried to tell me it was being driven too fast.
piece of shit

[Pixie]

Err, the Ford Crown Victoria is the US patrol car of choice, all 4.6 litres and 2 tonnes of it.
In fact 100 of millions of people round the world have their roads patrolled with these type of cars.

It may also interest you to know that the acknowledged world leaders in adapted law enforcement models are BMW and they sell a lot of units into Europe, mainly in a traffic role.

The crown vic is going out of production....and guess what? the aussies are trying to sell comodores to the yanks as replacements

[Smifffy]

Wow!

Now THERE'S a quantum leap of logic!:blink::blink::scratch:

No leap of logic, nor twisting of words required. This thread was always about bashing the cops because one of them turned into the path of an oncoming motorcycle. It was never about bashing the cops for arriving late to a domestic dispute - we might save that for another slow news day ;)

The suggestion was made that for some road policing a smaller vehicle maybe more appropriate, which was replied to with obfuscatory comments such as the one regarding officers being late to domestic disputes, and someone's sister dying. That was the original leap of logic right there.

Oh, there was also something about having enough room in the rear so that two officers could assault accompany a prisoner cuffed in the back.

[avgas]

Fair enough, but it doesn't answer the question. I know it's an old-age tradition, but what's the reason?

Why go without a helmet at a biker's funeral?
To look cool apparently

[avgas]

The crown vic is going out of production....and guess what? the aussies are trying to sell comodores to the yanks as replacements
To add salt to the wound - the competitor for the G8 Polizie is a Taurus.......

[avgas]

i am saying you should use MORE practical cars. with the exception of australia and the us no other country in the world uses commodore class vehicles for policing. our roads and requirements would be more closely aligned with what they use in the uk or europe.

commodure fuel consumption 11.8litres/100km
camry 8.8litres/100km
Full offence. Your argument is full of shit and you obviously know fuck all.
Telling people to join the police force - and you will give them a camry is like saying you enjoy wanking for the physical excercise. I don't know fuck all people who would join the cop shop if they had camry's.
Now down to the nitty gritty - camry's while they are good cars for taking the family to the supermarket.....handle like a boat in stormy weather. Anyone who has driven one or owns one will tell you this. The 2.4L donk is quick enough (unless you lucky to get a v6) - but the suspension is soft, and its front wheel drive. So turning circle is HUGE. Very comfy back seat - which is actually useless for a cop car.
As for your argument about Ford Mondeo being reliable - I would guess you have NEVER owned one. They are cheap sacks of shit. EVERY MONDEO OWNER WILL TELL YOU THEY ARE CRAP. Not to mention they have horrible 'transmission gremlins'. Focus is not much better. Go look at the resale value of these cars - there is a reason they are cheap.
No but seriously tell us how changing the cop cars are going to make them better drivers. Its attitudes like this that have fucked the planeless airforce, tankless army and battleshipless navy in NZ.....

[bogan]

And that's what started this whole thread. There are 2 opposing arguments in regard to speed; that the one going fast could have stopped before hitting the bad driver (the Police car) had he been going slower, and that it is entirely the fault of the Police car.

Now, we don't know how fast the bike was going, so why are we all speculating before we know at all? The best we will ever be able to do is let the Serious Crash guys make an estimate based on the physical evidence. This is normally a pretty good estimate, but is still only an estimate.

Let's not forget that most crashes are a result of a combination of factors, rarely just one single cause. Based solely on the photos I have only seen on KB, this was truly an awful place to do a U-turn or 3 point turn. The bike may have been going too fast to be able to avoid the Police car, but we don't know. The ute is what caused the Police driver to commence the U-turn or 3 point turn, apparently exacerbated by target fixation. It's not like the Police driver was just turning to get to the next donut shop.

Until this one plays out in court (Coroners or District), we are all just speculating.

As has been said before, many believe it is irrelevant how fast the bike was going, and also irrelevant why the cop was turning around. Looking at the bigger picture, this shit has to stop, cops should know better, and should be trained better etc, just look at the what coppie did thread, it isn't an isolated incident.

[Swoop]

I was nearly "next" yesterday on a way to coro...
The loop is in good condition at the moment. A particular lack of police through the Waikato region yesterday as well. Not that they were needed as everyone appeared to be happily pootling along.

I know it's an old-age tradition, but what's the reason?

Why go without a helmet at a biker's funeral?
Perhaps the tradition of removing your hat as a mark of respect? You don't wear a hat in church.

[Ixion]

His Hawke must have been locked at that speed otherwise he could not give the perp a ticket. And thus an enquiry via the OIA should reveal the truth. Perhaps Ixion might like to pursue that course.

,br/> No. Because whatever the ute did is irrelevant.

The whole issue is that the cop did a turn in a place patently unsafe. Whatever the ute did had zero effect on that. Tell me, what speed would the ute have had to be going at to make that turn safe?

The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 10kph
The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 100kph
The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 154 kph
The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 200kph.
The speed of the bike may argueably be relevant. But the focus on the ute is merely an example of the obfuscation and smokescreens with which the police obscure simple matters.

The cop had no business to try to do a turn there even if a uteful of monkeys flew past on the other side at 300 kph, strumming banjoes with their tails on fire.

The ute is irrelevant. Getting involved in arguments about it merely plays up to the police tactics of obscure confuse and find someone else to blame.

[blackdog]

Muldoon was worth a laugh at least,there was under his reign some wonderful loopholes for those in the rural sector.I can remember the old mans glee when in 75 (roughly) he bought over a 351 Cleveland from Stralia that was supposedly going into a jetboat to cart spraying gear (seriously) and the savings,said Cleveland went straight into an XY ute along with the GT dash/badges/grill blah blah that came with it.Nice ute.Not to mention how easy it was to turn a pallet of beer into petrol on the books.

we brought a 308 over for a jet boat. imported as a 'pump' engine :)

[blackdog]

Full offence. Your argument is full of shit and you obviously know fuck all.
Telling people to join the police force - and you will give them a camry is like saying you enjoy wanking for the physical excercise. I don't know fuck all people who would join the cop shop if they had camry's.
.

anyone deciding to become a cop based on the sort of vehicle they will drive is clearly unsuitable for the position in the first place.

[avgas]

anyone deciding to become a cop based on the sort of vehicle they will drive is clearly unsuitable for the position in the first place.
You would be surprised how many people won't work if you take their perks of the job away.
Its called motivation.

[blackdog]

You would be surprised how many people won't work if you take their perks of the job away.
Its called motivation.

if this is the case, i see only positives in weeding out those who choose law enforcement as a career based on the 'perks'

[MSTRS]

...The ute is what caused the Police driver to commence the U-turn or 3 point turn...

Nit-picking, perhaps, but the ute and its alleged speed did not cause the cop to turn. The cop DECIDED to turn, because he saw the speeding ute. The cop was, at all times, the deciding factor in what he did.
The ute and its speed was at most the catalyst only for what followed.

Well answered by Ixion #1164

[Smifffy]

Snip

The 2.4L donk is quick enough (unless you lucky to get a v6) - but the suspension is soft, and its front wheel drive. So turning circle is HUGE. Very comfy back seat - which is actually useless for a cop car.
As for your argument about Ford Mondeo being reliable - I would guess you have NEVER owned one. They are cheap sacks of shit. EVERY MONDEO OWNER WILL TELL YOU THEY ARE CRAP. Not to mention they have horrible 'transmission gremlins'. Focus is not much better. Go look at the resale value of these cars - there is a reason they are cheap.
No but seriously tell us how changing the cop cars are going to make them better drivers. Its attitudes like this that have fucked the planeless airforce, tankless army and battleshipless navy in NZ.....

Maybe they could consider a Mazda Bounty, apparently they go fast enough.

Oh wait, they wouldn't be able to decide on the colour.... :rofl:

[Smifffy]

You would be surprised how many people won't work if you take their perks of the job away.
Its called motivation.

Must be one of the few jobs left in the country that still has perks.

I wonder who pays for those perks?

[peasea]

To look cool apparently

Oh, like having long hair waving in the breeze etc.

I'm fuckin' bald as a badger's arse, so that won't work!

[Max Preload]

Telling people to join the police force - and you will give them a camry is like saying you enjoy wanking for the physical excercise. I don't know fuck all people who would join the cop shop if they had camry's.

So they're not joining for the noble job of serving and protecting the public but instead so they can drive a specific car in a lout-like manner, with impunity? That pretty much confirms everything I thought I knew about them: we're back to "Do as I say, not as I do".

[peasea]

Perhaps the tradition of removing your hat as a mark of respect? You don't wear a hat in church.

But I don't ride my bike in church.............maybe I go to the wrong church.

Oh hang on, I don't go to church at all. Maybe if I did I could ride right in. Without my lid, of course.

[scumdog]

So they're not joining for the noble job of serving and protecting the public but instead so they can drive a specific car in a lout-like manner, with impunity? That pretty much confirms everything I thought I knew about them: we're back to "Do as I say, not as I do".

Yep, I too make assumptions based on what avgas and others post on KB, beats trying to find out the facts anyday...:shifty::rolleyes::whistle:

[marty]

Must be one of the few jobs left in the country that still has perks.

I wonder who pays for those perks?

dunno - my current job has some pretty good perks :)

[miloking]

Ok so it has been a week today since the official investigation started, any new facts or evidence found? Or any other updates from fuzz?

[Smifffy]

Ok so it has been a week today since the official investigation started, any new facts or evidence found? Or any other updates from fuzz?

This is a no win situation - any results now, and there will be cries that the investigation, was rushed, botched and stuff got swept under the carpet.

If it takes months (and I'd expect it to) the same people would moan that the investigators are dragging their heels.

[miloking]

This is a no win situation - any results now, and there will be cries that the investigation, was rushed, botched and stuff got swept under the carpet.

If it takes months (and I'd expect it to) the same people would moan that the investigators are dragging their heels.

I didnt mean it like that, i understand that this will take time to investigate properly...iam just wondering if there is any new information to ponder about related to the accident instead of this "camry vs commodore" argument (possibly some insider info leaked or some other witness cropped up...etc)

[Robert Taylor]

Yep, I too make assumptions based on what avgas and others post on KB, beats trying to find out the facts anyday...:shifty::rolleyes::whistle:

Yep, everything posted on forums is authoritative and correct. This is another ''night of the long knives'' and a case of mass hysteria.
Sure there will be a few police personnell that are ''cowboys'' but that is no reason to tar all the police with the same brush.

[Smifffy]

Yep, everything posted on forums is authoritative and correct. This is another ''night of the long knives'' and a case of mass hysteria.
Sure there will be a few police personnell that are ''cowboys'' but that is no reason to tar all the police with the same brush.

Actually I'd be happy for them to outright admit something went wrong and vow to get to the bottom of it, much like the Air force's AVM did after the ANZAC day crash.

Instead, they have mostly chosen to tar themselves with the same brush.

[scumdog]

Actually I'd be happy for them to outright admit something went wrong and vow to get to the bottom of it, much like the Air force's AVM did after the ANZAC day crash.

Why?

So you can be entertained?

I'll just sit it out and wait....

[Smifffy]

Why?

So you can be entertained?

I'll just sit it out and wait....

No, just an announcement of an investigation without all the same old tired justifications pre-empting it.

We've done this thousands of times etc.

Same old knee-jerk reactions, same old giant leaps of logic, same old go directly on the attack, same old smoke & mirrors mystery vehicle, and mystery man obfuscation.

Same old shit actually.

I guess I'm wrong after all, I really thought the police would be interested in getting rid of the drongoes from their ranks, in improving road safety and improving their procedures so that they avoid causing harm to themselve and others.

It appears that all they really want to do is get a licence to hoon around and issue tickets.

No wonder they have an image problem.

[scumdog]

No, just an announcement of an investigation without all the same old tired justifications pre-empting it.

We've done this thousands of times etc.

Same old knee-jerk reactions, same old giant leaps of logic, same old go directly on the attack, same old smoke & mirrors mystery vehicle, and mystery man obfuscation.

Same old shit actually.

I guess I'm wrong after all, I really thought the police would be interested in getting rid of the drongoes from their ranks, in improving road safety and improving their procedures so that they avoid causing harm to themselve and others.

It appears that all they really want to do is get a licence to hoon around and issue tickets.

No wonder they have an image problem.

Troll........

[Dodgy]

I have been reading an interesting book called 'Blink', written by Malcolm Gladwell.

In a nutshell, one thing it looks at is snap/impulse reactions and how the human condition processes them. It appears that, and explains that (from reading this book) the consqences of NYC police reacting too quickly. It talks about high speed chases being banned as the offender and the officer are so hyped up at the commencement and closure of these, usually more harm than good results (in the case of the US, he quotes that 300 innocent victims are killed each year as a result of piloce car chases). He talks much of police units being trained to slow things down, to take a moment before reacting on impulse. This officer who killled Paul no doubt did not think at all, he leapt straight into using the part of his brain (cock?!) that does not engage in rational thought (ie: is this a safe place to do a 3 point turn?)

Interesting that this training may not be actually applied here in NZ?

[denill]

Do you really think cops would be breathtesting other cops, let alone charging them and bringing them before the courts in a corrupt force?

That is all about a a cop who will do anything to get the brownie points that are required for promotion. Believe it................:yes:

There are plenty of places to sit in the canteen.

[Grubber]

Troll........

It's easy to see what profession your in i'm afraid. Think maybe you need to broaden your thoughts a little and lose the uniform. Listen to what joe public is saying.


Actually I'd be happy for them to outright admit something went wrong and vow to get to the bottom of it, much like the Air force's AVM did after the ANZAC day crash.

Instead, they have mostly chosen to tar themselves with the same brush.

Agreed. All professions have their issues!

[candor]

Seems like not much to see here with 1 bad year for deaths in 2003 (all pursued) and a worsening trend to serious injury from chase incidents, but recent stuff about people hurt by collateral damage is not finalised or included in CAS as either crash reports are not in or processed.

Table 1: M/C rider & pillion casualties killed & injured in 'evading enforcement' crashes 2002 to 2008

M/C Riders M/C Pillions
--------------Fatalities -----------Serious injury---------------minor inj--------------Fat--------- ----S.I.---- -----minor inj
Pursued -------4-------------------25---------------------68--------------------0----------------------0------------------3
Not pursued---0-------------------1-----------------------3--------------------0---------------------0------------------0-----Total 104

Table 2 M/C rider & pillion casualties killed & injured in 'evading enforcement' crashes 2002 to 2008
By year-------------------------------Pursued----------------------------------------- ---------Not pursued
-----------------------Fatalities -----Serious injury------------minor inj--------------Fat-------------S.I.---------minor inj
2002 ------------------0--------------------1------------------------8-----------------0----------------0-------------0
2003-------------------3---------------------2-----------------------13----------------0----------------0-------------1
2004-------------------0---------------------2-------------------------4----------------0----------------0-------------2
2005-------------------1---------------------4-----------------------10----------------0----------------0-------------0
2006-------------------0---------------------3-------------------------6----------------0----------------0-------------0
2007-------------------0---------------------9-----------------------14----------- ----0--------- ------1------- ---0
2008-------------------0---------------------4-----------------------16------------ ----0---------------0--------- --0

[bogan]

Seems like not much to see here with 1 bad year for deaths in 2003 (all pursued) and a worsening trend to serious injury from chase incidents, but recent stuff about people hurt by collateral damage is not finalised or included in CAS as either crash reports are not in or processed.

I'm assuming the not pursued column is accidents where the police saw an offender and didn't pursue them? Seems a little hard to gather data for it, and also very skewed as the cops tend to pursue a lot more than not. What would be helpful would be a graph of pursuits/tickets (per 10,000 bikes-ish) vs bike injuries on the road (per 10,000 bikes-ish) as that will show if there is any correlation between police pursuits/tickets and road safety.

[avgas]

if this is the case, i see only positives in weeding out those who choose law enforcement as a career based on the 'perks'
Haha that would be awesome. Could probably be left with about 10 cops in NZ.
Only downside that would be is that you would ALWAYS get a ticket from these cops for EVERYTHING you do. As they would be cops to enforce the law only.
Be careful what you wish for I guess.

[avgas]

No wonder they have an image problem.
Same could be said about bikers.
Food for thought

[candor]

I'm assuming the not pursued column is accidents where the police saw an offender and didn't pursue them?

The "not pursued" column is actually people hurt in the course of a pursuit who were not the pursued person/s ie MC riders that were "in the way" of a pursuit. Innocent bystanders like those caught up in a crash by dodgy cop u-turns.

The sort of graph you suggest is an interesting thought. There is one for tickets/general crashes done by the AA showing more tickets the last 5 years equals more crashes proportionately, but no MC breakdown. Could be done I'm sure.

[bogan]

The "not pursued" column is actually people hurt in the course of a pursuit who were not the pursued person/s ie MC riders that were "in the way" of a pursuit. Innocent bystanders like those caught up in a crash by dodgy cop u-turns.

The sort of graph you suggest is an interesting thought. There is one for tickets/general crashes done by the AA showing more tickets equals more crashes, but no MC breakdown. Could be done I'm sure.

ah, that makes more sense, yeh i saw the precentage one from AA, would prefer just population normalised figures though. Could I have a link to the one on AAs site?

[candor]

They didn't publish it - it was used to inform their SJ comments, but can e-ml to you. Gotta go.

[bogan]

They didn't publish it - it was used to inform their SJ comments, but can e-ml to you. Gotta go.

Is it different from the percentage one in your other thread? or do you have the figures behind it? would be interested in them if thats the case

[avgas]

Must be one of the few jobs left in the country that still has perks.

I wonder who pays for those perks?
Nope most jobs have perks of one kind or another.
Depends on the level or arseholes you have to deal with on a daily basis. Sales guys get sweet cars.

[avgas]

So they're not joining for the noble job of serving and protecting the public but instead so they can drive a specific car in a lout-like manner, with impunity? That pretty much confirms everything I thought I knew about them: we're back to "Do as I say, not as I do".
Fuck no. What do you work for free too?
Cash is a perk too you know. Some people do stuff free of charge.
So what the figure on your morality? 50K, 60K....100K?

[Smifffy]

If I'm a troll for calling for changes to policies & procedures, then so too is Justice Lowell Goddard. From all of this, I suspect that the officer involved is likely to eventually face discipline of some kind. I still think that the problem is more systemic than just a few hooning cops, and so does Justice Goddard.

It appears that members of the force can ignore her just as easily as they ignore the public.

Police at fault in pursuit crash
Wednesday, February 17, 2010
The Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA) found that two police officers in an unmarked car should never have pursued Thomas Hancy, then 18, through a ...

Police pursuit breached policy - IPCA
Tuesday, February 16, 2010
Police actions in pursuing a speeding driver through a busy part of central Christchurch in December 2008 breached policy and amounted to misconduct, ...

Police pursuit ends in serious crash
Sunday, January 31, 2010
... More than 20 a year were seriously injured. In October the IPCA recommended changes to police policy to give clearer guidelines on when pursuits were justified.

Family hail call for change in police tactics
Wednesday, October 14, 2009
... "Pursuits can begin over relatively minor offending, or general suspicion, and end in serious injury or death," said IPCA chairwoman Justice Lowell Goddard. ...

Speeding policeman who injured teen loses licence
Friday, May 29, 2009
... an Auckland teenager was breaking both the law and police policy and should not have been speeding, the Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA) has found. ...

Complaints about police at highest level in 20 years
Friday, December 5, 2008
Neglect of duty, and language and attitude problems rank among the most common complaints to the Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA). ..

Woman in hospital after high-speed police crash
Tuesday, October 21, 2008
... the scene investigation, and a non-commissioned officer had been assigned to coordinate an Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA) investigation.

May 22, 2006
On Thursday, a police officer lost control of his car during a pursuit in west Auckland and ploughed down 20m of a concrete boundary.


Seems like not much to see here with 1 bad year for deaths in 2003 (all pursued) and a worsening trend to serious injury from chase incidents, but recent stuff about people hurt by collateral damage is not finalised or included in CAS as either crash reports are not in or processed.

(Table removed)

[peasea]

Same could be said about bikers.
Food for thought

You're not fucking wrong.
Sunday, just after noon, we were standing outside a mates place chatting. Some twat on a bright green sportsbike (don't know what, don't care) pulls out from by the bakery and pops a long wheelstand, through an intersection, in a 50k zone in plain view of a swag of folk having brunch outside the local cafe`. Not to mention others who were walking their dogs, taking their kids to the park, dropping off DVD's or whatever. Prize fucking twat. There are heaps of back roads around here where you can pop wheelies all day long and nobody will ever know. Unfortunately, most members of the public don't know (or care) what type of bike any particular biker rides, they just see a 'bike'. That guy did us all a major disservice.

[scumdog]

It's easy to see what profession your in i'm afraid. Think maybe you need to broaden your thoughts a little and lose the uniform. Listen to what joe public is saying.!

Hell no, not if the joe public is like a certain amount of KB.

I wasn't in this job my whole life, my thoughts and ideas haven't changed since becoming a cop - just ask anybody that has known me for a while.

[Patrick]

What difference does it make how fast the oncoming vehicle was going? The fact is the officer commenced a three point turn to give chase, and a motorcyclist collided with the Police vehicle, and died.


So true. The reason for the turn has nothing to do with this.


Quoted for truth.

The speed of the ute and the motorcyclist have been called into question; None of these are relevant. All that matters is piggy did something fucking stupid, and someone died from it.


And that's what started this whole thread. There are 2 opposing arguments in regard to speed; that the one going fast could have stopped before hitting the bad driver (the Police car) had he been going slower, and that it is entirely the fault of the Police car.

Now, we don't know how fast the bike was going, so why are we all speculating before we know at all? The best we will ever be able to do is let the Serious Crash guys make an estimate based on the physical evidence. This is normally a pretty good estimate, but is still only an estimate.

Let's not forget that most crashes are a result of a combination of factors, rarely just one single cause. Based solely on the photos I have only seen on KB, this was truly an awful place to do a U-turn or 3 point turn. The bike may have been going too fast to be able to avoid the Police car, but we don't know. The ute is what caused the Police driver to commence the U-turn or 3 point turn, apparently exacerbated by target fixation. It's not like the Police driver was just turning to get to the next donut shop.

Until this one plays out in court (Coroners or District), we are all just speculating.

Beat me to it Rastus. The ute at least and the bike probably ARE contributing factors. The cause is still clear, but there are contributing factors.


Well if marked cars prevent people doing "daft shit",maybe more marked cars are the answer.
After all,what is the object of the exercise?Stopping people doing "daft shit",or catching them and draining their wallets?

NO plain cars for traffic in these parts. It went in the cuts. HI vis is what the boss wants. But folk are such blind twats - they don't even notice the red and blues that they are approaching at 80kmph in a 50 k zone.......


,br/> No. Because whatever the ute did is irrelevant.

The whole issue is that the cop did a turn in a place patently unsafe. Whatever the ute did had zero effect on that. Tell me, what speed would the ute have had to be going at to make that turn safe?

The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 10kph
The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 100kph
The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 154 kph
The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 200kph.
The speed of the bike may argueably be relevant. But the focus on the ute is merely an example of the obfuscation and smokescreens with which the police obscure simple matters.

The cop had no business to try to do a turn there even if a uteful of monkeys flew past on the other side at 300 kph, strumming banjoes with their tails on fire.

The ute is irrelevant. Getting involved in arguments about it merely plays up to the police tactics of obscure confuse and find someone else to blame.

The ute is not irrelevant. Neither is the speed of the bike. The cause is clear.


Nit-picking, perhaps, but the ute and its alleged speed did not cause the cop to turn. The cop DECIDED to turn, because he saw the speeding ute. The cop was, at all times, the deciding factor in what he did.
The ute and its speed was at most the catalyst only for what followed.

Well answered by Ixion #1164

Yep - a contributing factor..........


I didnt mean it like that, i understand that this will take time to investigate properly...iam just wondering if there is any new information to ponder about related to the accident instead of this "camry vs commodore" argument (possibly some insider info leaked or some other witness cropped up...etc)

Probably have been some bosses having a read of KB. They are selecting the firing squad now, because cops don't have the addage of being innocent until proven guilty.


Seems like not much to see here with 1 bad year for deaths in 2003 (all pursued) and a worsening trend to serious injury from chase incidents, but recent stuff about people hurt by collateral damage is not finalised or included in CAS as either crash reports are not in or processed.

Table 1:....................0

And another way of viewing this is, those who try to flee the Police are the cause of many deaths and injuries.....?

Just a thought......

[Smifffy]

Beat me to it Rastus. The ute at least and the bike probably ARE contributing factors. The cause is still clear, but there are contributing factors.



NO plain cars for traffic in these parts. It went in the cuts. HI vis is what the boss wants. But folk are such blind twats - they don't even notice the red and blues that they are approaching at 80kmph in a 50 k zone.......



The ute is not irrelevant. Neither is the speed of the bike. The cause is clear.



Yep - a contributing factor..........



Probably have been some bosses having a read of KB. They are selecting the firing squad now, because cops don't have the addage of being innocent until proven guilty.



And another way of viewing this is, those who try to flee the Police are the cause of many deaths and injuries.....?

Just a thought......

Personally I couldn't give a rat's arse about anyone that flees the police killing themselves.

I am concerned about them killining/injuring others.

I am concerned about the pursuers killing/injuring others.

On the few occasions that the runners do end up harming themselves or others, I find the police claim that the pursuit ended 3 seconds prior to the impact, quite frankly laughable. At normal road speeds it takes just under 2 seconds to react and stop, so what's with the 3 second thing?

"Oh shit, call off the purs....... BOOOM!!"

TUI dudes

[Indoo]

\ so what's with the 3 second thing?

Your the one who made it up, maybe you could share if its not too personal.

[Smifffy]

Your the one who made it up, maybe you could share if its not too personal.

You're the one who made it up.

HTH

[Patrick]

......... On the few occasions that the runners do end up harming themselves or others, I find the police claim that the pursuit ended 3 seconds prior to the impact, quite frankly laughable. At normal road speeds it takes just under 2 seconds to react and stop, so what's with the 3 second thing?

"Oh shit, call off the purs....... BOOOM!!"

TUI dudes

Your words.... the few occasions.

Yeah, hard to accept. But since the vast majority are called off or crash well after the abandonment.............

But hey, that's not fair..... there is no cop to blame there, I suppose.........

[Smifffy]

How many changes, even preliminary, interim, draft or minor have been made to pursuit procedures since the IPCA called for change in October last year?

Is Tooman likely to be aware of any review being undertaken at any time between then and now?

Maybe the review will be commenced moments before the release of the next investigation.

A bit like how Gavin MacDonnell took up non-sworn duties at Orewa before breaching policy & procedures in an unmarked car? Police denied for 2-3 months that any pursuit even took place.

He was considered a gold class driver, and had he still been a sworn officer, his discipline was likely to consist of counselling and training on the policy?

It is becoming clearer to me now why members of the force are trying to avoid scrutiny.

[Skinon]

Probably have been some bosses having a read of KB. They are selecting the firing squad now, because cops don't have the addage of being innocent until proven guilty.


I hope they are reading, and they actually decide to make a change to there pursuit tactics. Although i personally reckon that it wouldn't make much difference because like i said before cops are just humans in blue suits, they are just as supsceptible to corruption and making stupid fuck ups as the rest of us are.

And who said that we are innocent until proven guilty?? thats the biggest load of shit they feed you. i have actually asked the filth that question and have been told, No thats what the bail systems for. Thats why before you are charged with anything you get curfews or drinking bans etc etc... Unfortunately it's very much guilty until proven innocent.

[Spearfish]

YAWN, oh sorry did I say that out loud?

I reckon super troopers is a cool movie, especially the opening scene with the bogans... should be a police training requirement!

This thread reminds me of the movie Deliverance...

Cant say I have any trouble with the popo but the several million cars I share the road with reminds me of the movie Duel...

And just for those on here who seem to be stuck in their rebellious teen years...Easy Rider wasn't a documentary! ya can grow ya hair man...

[scumdog]

O.T. but in the USA if you are being pursued and as a result of YOUR actions anyboby gets hurt?

Then YOU get charged with their injury/death.

So if a cop is chasing you, T-bones another car and both drivers are killed/injured YOU get charged with their death/injuries

Some if a civilian runs off the road getting out of the cops way - YOU get charged with any applicable charges if they're injured.

I guess in this tragic case that law wouldn't apply because it happened in NZ...

[scumdog]

On the few occasions that the runners do end up harming themselves or others, I find the police claim that the pursuit ended 3 seconds prior to the impact, quite frankly laughable. At normal road speeds it takes just under 2 seconds to react and stop, so what's with the 3 second thing?

"Oh shit, call off the purs....... BOOOM!!"


TUI dudes

They don't ALWAYS crash only '3 seconds' after the pursuit is called off.

In any event, they chose to run....for whatever really valid reason they think they have for doing so, the fact they crashed just adds to their woes.

At the end of the day it's a no-win situation.:no:

No pursuits?

EVERY dickwad will do a 'runner' when the cops try to pull them over - and it will happen a lot more, especially if in a stolen car.

Of course street cred will plummet, after all, how can you say to your mates "Yer, I gave them pigs the learn, outdrove 'em like they were standing still" when the cop WAS standing still.:doh:

[red mermaid]

Lets have that law here.....gee, would that mean Mr Ute driver would be held accountable and be charged for the resulting death?

I like that idea.




O.T. but in the USA if you are being pursued and as a result of YOUR actions anyboby gets hurt?

Then YOU get charged with their injury/death.

So if a cop is chasing you, T-bones another car and both drivers are killed/injured YOU get charged with their death/injuries

Some if a civilian runs off the road getting out of the cops way - YOU get charged with any applicable charges if they're injured.

I guess in this tragic case that law wouldn't apply because it happened in NZ...

[Jonno.]

O.T. but in the USA if you are being pursued and as a result of YOUR actions anyboby gets hurt?

Then YOU get charged with their injury/death.

So if a cop is chasing you, T-bones another car and both drivers are killed/injured YOU get charged with their death/injuries

Some if a civilian runs off the road getting out of the cops way - YOU get charged with any applicable charges if they're injured.

I guess in this tragic case that law wouldn't apply because it happened in NZ...

But the ute didn't cause the accident did he? He wasn't even running. :weird:

I think you'll find in the USA if you pull a fucking stupid U turn that kills someone, you'll get sued.

[miloking]

Lets have that law here.....gee, would that mean Mr Ute driver would be held accountable and be charged for the resulting death?

I like that idea.

Also make him accountable for the current global recession and floods in south island!!!

People like you with such a retarded logic realy scare me....what if you end up voting or god forbid decide to go into politics!

[candor]

O.T. but in the USA if you are being pursued and as a result of YOUR actions anyboby gets hurt?

Then YOU get charged with their injury/death.

...

And don't forget the Police can get charged too. You'll find willing keen lawyers adverising for for this here;
http://www.pursuitwatch.org/home.shtml

Which is why many States are adopting restrictive chase policies with fabulous road safety impacts. I'd rather be safe than lose sleep over concerns that some speeder no longer thinks of the Police as deadly serious rabbit chasers.

Police recruits should be forced to write essays based on this website paying particular attention to the page titled "If the bad guys hadn't run none of this would have happened…" which sounds a little like "if he hadn't called me a dick I wouldn't have broken his nose.. or that chicks that got in the way... oops"

Another mandatory requirement might be to hang Justice Goddards report just beside their Peace officer vows to country and god, on their bedroom wall. I spotted these in a cop shop today! And why are top brass road policers riding round in taxis, kept waiting for 20 minutes? So much for trimming the dripping. And why the hats - bit old, nurseys got rid of 'em years ago. For pilots it was always to look distinguished and convey authority and trust. Is it an attmept at that, standard issue or earned?

[scumdog]

Ahh..nothing like dropping a brick onto the wasps nest...:2thumbsup

[scumdog]

But the ute didn't cause the accident did he? He wasn't even running. :weird:

I think you'll find in the USA if you pull a fucking stupid U turn that kills someone, you'll get sued.

Possilby they would get sued.

But the ute driver still goes to jail for 15 to 20 for involuntary manslaughter.....

[bogan]

I reckon super troopers is a cool movie, especially the opening scene with the bogans... should be a police training requirement!

you got that right, and bogans FTW!

[peasea]

Lets have that law here.....gee, would that mean Mr Ute driver would be held accountable and be charged for the resulting death?

I like that idea.

Anything to avoid bringing a guilty (not specific to this case) cop to justice eh?

[peasea]

Possilby they would get sued.

But the ute driver still goes to jail for 15 to 20 for involuntary manslaughter.....

But he was oblivious to the cop's intentions. If he'd failed to stop, different matter.

[Smifffy]

Ahh..nothing like dropping a brick onto the wasps nest...:2thumbsup

Troll much?

[MarkH]

But the ute driver still goes to jail for 15 to 20 for involuntary manslaughter.....

I think this countries laws are fairer where the turning cop has to take responsibility for his actions instead of passing the blame to someone else. Though I have serious doubts about the ute driver facing any charges under the US laws - the police would lack evidence of him playing any part in this accident. Maybe if he was poor & black though . . .

[Lucy]

But he was oblivious to the cop's intentions. If he'd failed to stop, different matter.

Going 154 past a cop in Waikato? Perhaps too late to do anything about it, but I seriously doubt he'd be oblivious to the cops intentions.

[peasea]

Going 154 past a cop in Waikato? Perhaps too late to do anything about it, but I seriously doubt he'd be oblivious to the cops intentions.

I apparently passed a cop on Sunday, didn't see him, others did but I didn't. If I'd been speeding and he'd done a u-turn and killed someone would I have been aware of his intentions? Also, that 154kph has yet to be proven.

Many moons ago I was hurtling through the Wairarapa and passed a cop on the side of the road. He just watched me fly by (at about 100mph/160kph) and did nothing. I thought I was for the high jump, but I never heard anything about it. So, you don't always know what a cop's intentions are, do you?

[Patrick]

I hope they are reading, and they actually decide to make a change to there pursuit tactics. Although i personally reckon that it wouldn't make much difference because like i said before cops are just humans in blue suits, they are just as supsceptible to corruption and making stupid fuck ups as the rest of us are.

And who said that we are innocent until proven guilty?? thats the biggest load of shit they feed you. i have actually asked the filth that question and have been told, No thats what the bail systems for. Thats why before you are charged with anything you get curfews or drinking bans etc etc... Unfortunately it's very much guilty until proven innocent.

These "changes" some are calling for... are what exactly? No U turns on blind hill crests or bends? They have been there for... ummm... ever?

If it is a danger to any person? Yep, already exists. Sometimes this "danger" just springs out of nowhere - a car pulling out of a drive, a breakdown around the bend, a kid running out, whatever.....

In this case, the bike wasn't seen.... and if I had a dollar for every time I heard this when dealing with a bike versus whatever crash, I wouldn't need to buy Lotto most weeks.

If some actually read the Pursuits Policy, one would see things are in place. If anyone thinks this cop didn't know about the policy, then that is just impossible. If he is driving a police vehicle, he knows the Policy. And all cops drive police vehicles.

Instead, there will be a knee jerk reaction and Police will be further prevented from chasing anything.

"Car rams Motorcyclist and flees - Police seen waving goodbye" headline, coming soon to a Newspaper near you.......

But silliness aside, like so much in this thread, some would try have readers believe the cop did it on purpose, just because he is a biker.....

Innocent until proven guilty is often banded around here. Just pointing out how it is different, in this case, only because it is a cop......

BUt yeah, innocent until proven guilty - it is a load of shit. But that is the courts and the lawyers. If I am not convinced they are guilty, I don't lock em up. Simple.

[Max Preload]

"Car rams Motorcyclist and flees - Police seen waving goodbye" headline, coming soon to a Newspaper near you.......

That's just a ridiculous extension. All anyone is saying is that they should no longer be trying to justify the "pursue at any or all costs" mentality which is clearly rife.

[Ixion]

These "changes" some are calling for... are what exactly? No U turns on blind hill crests or bends? They have been there for... ummm... ever?

If it is a danger to any person? Yep, already exists. Sometimes this "danger" just springs out of nowhere - a car pulling out of a drive, a breakdown around the bend, a kid running out, whatever.....

In this case, the bike wasn't seen.... and if I had a dollar for every time I heard this when dealing with a bike versus whatever crash, I wouldn't need to buy Lotto most weeks.



Not really quite the case , though is it? Of course the bike wasn't seen. But it didn't 'spring out of nowhere'. That's the whole point. The cop did a U turn at a place where any experienced driver should have said 'No way, this is too dangerous'.

I'm sure there is a policy about 'Don't be dangerous'. And I'm sure the driver was very experienced. So, he, an experienced driver, ignored the policy. He must have known that a U turn there was dangerous, because traffic might come over the crest. But he did it anyway. Because, although the policy says 'Don't be dangerous', there's also one that says , in effect, 'Speeding tickets at all costs'. And the cop knew that if he went back and said "I didn't chase a speeding ute because it would have been too dangerous to turn where I was", he'd have been bollocked. And that is the bit that has to change.

[Smifffy]

These "changes" some are calling for... are what exactly? No U turns on blind hill crests or bends? They have been there for... ummm... ever?

If it is a danger to any person? Yep, already exists. Sometimes this "danger" just springs out of nowhere - a car pulling out of a drive, a breakdown around the bend, a kid running out, whatever.....

In this case, the bike wasn't seen.... and if I had a dollar for every time I heard this when dealing with a bike versus whatever crash, I wouldn't need to buy Lotto most weeks.

If some actually read the Pursuits Policy, one would see things are in place. If anyone thinks this cop didn't know about the policy, then that is just impossible. If he is driving a police vehicle, he knows the Policy. And all cops drive police vehicles.

Instead, there will be a knee jerk reaction and Police will be further prevented from chasing anything.

"Car rams Motorcyclist and flees - Police seen waving goodbye" headline, coming soon to a Newspaper near you.......

But silliness aside, like so much in this thread, some would try have readers believe the cop did it on purpose, just because he is a biker.....

Innocent until proven guilty is often banded around here. Just pointing out how it is different, in this case, only because it is a cop......

BUt yeah, innocent until proven guilty - it is a load of shit. But that is the courts and the lawyers. If I am not convinced they are guilty, I don't lock em up. Simple.

Yeah, I think one of the things that has to change is the kind of attitude expressed by Tooman in his statements to the press. In your post, you recognised that policies and procedures are in place, and that there is little to no chance that the officer involved was unaware of said policies.

Tooman said effectively "He's a great cop, speed kills, and sometimes there's collateral damage" That's not what he said, but that's the message I got.

He could well have said something similar to your post:

"This is a tragedy, we do have policies and procedures in place to try to prevent this kind of thing happening, and obviously something has gone horribly wrong in this case. We are serious about road safety, and as such will conduct several inquiries looking at all aspects of the event, and address any issues that may arise from the investigations. I would like to extend our deepest condolences to the family of the deceased."

But he didn't, did he? What were his actual words again?

If I drove anything like most of the cops I see on the road do, I would have a much larger collection of infringements than I do now. I don't mean in pursuit, either, just the regular A to B stuff I see around.

[red mermaid]

If you knew anything at all about the pursuit policy you would know that it does not apply in this case.

The driver of the patrol car was not in pursuit (as defined by the pursuit policy) of the driver of the ute.

[bogan]

If you knew anything at all about the pursuit policy you would know that it does not apply in this case.

The driver of the patrol car was not in pursuit (as defined by the pursuit policy) of the driver of the ute.

hmmm, keep digging, you must be getting close to china!

[red mermaid]

Oh sorry, didnt realise you knew all about the pursuit policy.

Silly me, forgetting you know my job better than me.

[bogan]

Oh sorry, didnt realise you knew all about the pursuit policy.

Silly me, forgetting you know my job better than me.

I was referring to the fact that it doesn't matter was policy it comes under, pulling a u-turn in a blind spot like that still ain't a good idea. If there is a policy, why wasn't it adhered to? If there isn't, there damn well should be, wouldn't you agree?

[red mermaid]

No, all the previous recent comments were about the pursuit policy and that is what I referred too.

[bogan]

No, all the previous recent comments were about the pursuit policy and that is what I referred too.

so are you saying there was no police policy which applied in those circumstances, which says doing a uey is a really bad idea?

[red mermaid]

No, don't put words in my mouth. Are you a lawyer?

I said the pursuit policy does not apply in this case.

[bogan]

No, don't put words in my mouth. Are you a lawyer?

I said the pursuit policy does not apply in this case.

And I'm trying to ascertain if you have any policys that do? a question which you seem to be dodging with the usual smokescreen tactics.

[red mermaid]

Go and research it yourself and find out the answer.

[SPman]

Is this turning into the new "Scottish Thread"?

[bogan]

Go and research it yourself and find out the answer.

Does asking a cop not count as researching it? I mean FFS I'm not here to have a whinge at cops, I just want to know how the system works.

[Coldrider]

There is a persuit in progress when the driver of the alleged offending vehicle is AWARE that he is in persuit of a PIG, and the PIG has the proper qualifications to persue oink,oink.

[peasea]

Does asking a cop not count as researching it? I mean FFS I'm not here to have a whinge at cops, I just want to know how the system works.

When you find out, please let us know, there's a good chap.

[bogan]

When you find out, please let us know, there's a good chap.

well the google searches keep coming up with pursuit policy needs to change etc etc, dangerous police maneuvers..... all stuff and harold articles, so I wouldn't bother reading them for facts anyway. So unless our mate there lets puts aside his holier than thou attitude, and takes 2 mins to explain it to us, don't think we're gonna find out.

[Coldrider]

I think the 'persuit policy' was explained in the Buller Gorge thread.

[bogan]

I think the 'persuit policy' was explained in the Buller Gorge thread.

Had a look in there, can't find it, not gonna read the whole thing obviously, but apparently it doesn't fall under pursuits policy anyway, which I'm confused about, as the whole reason the uey was performed was to pursue someone. Me thinks Red Mermaid is providing Red Herrings.

[miloking]

BTW read this

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10641886

and tell me its not all just about fucking revenue collecting!

I hate this rotten nanny state system....

[bogan]

I see you have it all under control in this thread Peasea :D

No need for milo to add more oil into the fire...

I mean we dont want to gang up on them too much...it will make them feel inadequate and they will just go issue more speeding tickets.

I don't think the aim is to gang up on them but with the attitudes shown by some cops (close ranks, divert attention, blame others), it does create an us and them dialogue, pity that, as useful changes will only happen with both police and public support.

[Coldrider]

Had a look in there, can't find it, not gonna read the whole thing obviously, but apparently it doesn't fall under pursuits policy anyway, which I'm confused about, as the whole reason the uey was performed was to pursue someone. Me thinks Red Mermaid is providing Red Herrings.here is one referencehttp://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/68272-Police-U-turn-amusement-again/page5?highlight=buller+gorge+turn

[bogan]

here is one referencehttp://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/68272-Police-U-turn-amusement-again/page5?highlight=buller+gorge+turn

ah yup, so if its not a pursuit, what is the relevant policy?

[Coldrider]

I'm lost now, both parties need to know that it is a persuit, not just the officer.

[bogan]

I'm lost now, both parties need to know that it is a persuit, not just the officer.

i think the term pursuit is loosely used by reporters and non-police people, as the officer u-turned to pursue the ute. The fact that the it does not come under pursuit policy is irrelevant (and debating it is a red herring), surely there is some other policy that deals with the initiation of a pursuit?
ie, did the officer break protocol/policy when he performed the u-turn? If not, what policy did he adhere to, if so what one did he break, if in between which one is it in-between of?

Its not a difficult question for any police-person, and one I would like to hear a straight up answer for. I wouldn't have though that was too much to ask.

[Coldrider]

You are correct in the misuse, in the Bridgeman case, he had merely done a U turn to follow the motorcyclist, he had not turned his flashing lights on till after the collision.
The crown said he was persuing, technically it wasn't (using the police definition).