The ACC saga - a new approach.

[miloking]

..at what point would you suddenly sit back and think "shit, maybe we should have done something about this sooner"?



When they start telling me what kind of bike i should ride by making larger cc bikes expensive to register and how fast i should ride them...that would be about the right time to get angry.

[davereid]

... motorcycling continues to be noticed solely for it's nuisance value by the powers that be, and more and more legislation is introduced to curtail your motorcycling freedom (far more so than this thread ever will), at what point would you suddenly sit back and think "shit, maybe we should have done something about this sooner"? The funny thing is that the purpose of this thread is to try and avoid the very thing you all are so vehemently opposed to happening.

What a load of old crap KM.

Helmets didn't appease the safety nazis.
Headlights on wont.
Pink reflective jackets wont.
ATGATT wont.

That's because motorcycles don't have crumple zones, air bags, or stability control.
No amount of legislative fucking around, safety gear or training days will ever make them as safe as cars.

Even if we all wear ATGATT, all do training days 12 times a year, all wear pink jackets and have flashing lights on top of our helmets, motorcycles will still be much much much more dangerous to our health than the car is.

You might get that figure of 23 times more dangerous down, but I bet you don't as cars will get safer and safer, and bikes just won't.

The safety Nazis are marching..

They have already fucked the smoker.

Even after the smoker was taxed so he covered all his health costs they didn't stop.
Even after the smoker was completely informed about the health risks they didn't stop.
Even after he was restricted to smoking only where he couldn't affect anyone else they didn't stop.

Even if they smoke in the safest way possible, in private and are fully insured they will still want to ban smoking as they know it is unhealthy.

Motorcycling will be the same. The only way to stop motorcycles killing people is to ban them. Just like smokers.

So, if you really want your grand-kids to able to ride a motorcycle, it is freedom you should be championing.

Your ATGATT will be welcomed, and will be useless, just like the smokers filter tip and low tar fags.

[miloking]

What a load of old crap KM.

Helmets didn't appease the safety nazis.
Headlights on wont.
Pink reflective jackets wont.
ATGATT wont.

That's because motorcycles don't have crumple zones, air bags, or stability control.
No amount of legislative fucking around, safety gear or training days will ever make them as safe as cars.

I know motorcycling is 23 times more dangerous than driving a car or 27 times more dangerous when I ride helmet-less.

Even if we all wear ATGATT, all do training days 12 times a year, all wear pink jackets and have flashing lights on top of our helmets, motorcycles will still be much much much more dangerous to our health than the car is.

You might get that figure of 23 down, but I bet you don't as cars will get safer and safer, and bikes just won't.

The safety Nazis are marching..

They have already fucked the smoker.

Even after the smoker was taxed so he covered all his health costs they didn't stop.
Even after the smoker was completely informed about the health risks they didn't stop.
Even after he was restricted to smoking only where he couldn't affect anyone else they didn't stop.

Even if they smoke in the safest way possible, in private and are fully insured they will still want to ban smoking as they know it is unhealthy.

Motorcycling will be the same. The only way to stop motorcycles killing people is to ban them. Just like smokers.

So, if you really want your grand-kids to able to ride a motorcycle, it is freedom you should be championing.

Your ATGATT will be welcomed, and will be useless, just like the smokers filter tip and low tar fags.


I fully agree with that...its all about personal choice, and not letting nanny state fuck with it!

[Katman]

Even if they smoke in the safest way possible, in private and are fully insured they will still want to ban smoking as they know it is unhealthy.

Motorcycling will be the same. The only way to stop motorcycles killing people is to ban them. Just like smokers.



And when they finally do just that you can sit back and pat yourself on the back and say "well at least I didn't cave in to the fuckers".

Go back to sticking your head in the sand.

[yachtie10]

This thread is getting good
Im agreeing with people I usally dont

ADs in magazines while a good idea is probably a waste of time. Now get the internet banned especially Youtube then you might get somewhere

[davereid]

And when they finally do just that you can sit back and pat yourself on the back and say "well at least I didn't cave in to the fuckers".

You can lick their arse all you like, it won't help ya.

Some of us will be fighting for our right to do something dangerous just for fun.

Americans will still be fighting compulsory helmet laws, and riding their bikes, long after they are banned for safety reasons here.

[yachtie10]

This thread is getting good
Im agreeing with people I usally dont

ADs in magazines while a good idea is probably a waste of time. Now get the internet banned especially Youtube then you might get somewhere

[That looks like fun]

If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you have always got. :yes:
Legislation is not the miracle cure :angry: the education systems we currently employ have limited effect :blink: Has domestic violence stop since they said it was naughty on TV? :angry:
People need to buy into a belief system before they will follow it. As no two people are the same it is impossible to find a magic "cure all" That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
I may be oversimplifying it but I believe that the simplest tool to motivate people to desire to change is "coin" pure and simple. Even those who despise wealth, the man and the system, at the deepest root worship the might of the "coin" After all if it wasn't important we would all part with it and pay our ACC with no gripes. :yes:
Create the desire, reap the rewards. How much simpler can it get. Seems that this may already have started happening reading some of the posts. :yes:
Anyway if it doesn't work we can always just continue slagging off everyone that disagrees with our particular version of "right" :shifty:

[flyingcrocodile46]

Here's a question for you and your two ostrich mates..........

If motorcycling continues to be noticed solely for it's nuisance value by the powers that be, and more and more legislation is introduced to curtail your motorcycling freedom (far more so than this thread ever will), at what point would you suddenly sit back and think "shit, maybe we should have done something about this sooner"?

The funny thing is that the purpose of this thread is to try and avoid the very thing you all are so vehemently opposed to happening.

That sort of weak willed rational sees the gradual erosion of our liberties as concession after concession is made by by well meaning meddlesome busy bodies such as yourself who are too weak to take the hard line and say. NO! You shall not limit my life experiences with your nanny state mentality.

[carver]

This thread is getting good
Im agreeing with people I usally dont

ADs in magazines while a good idea is probably a waste of time. Now get the internet banned especially Youtube then you might get somewhere

yes yes, ban all the MFSC movies while you are at it

[Katman]

That sort of weak willed rational sees the gradual erosion of our liberties as concession after concession is made by by well meaning meddlesome busy bodies such as yourself who are too weak to take the hard line and say. NO! You shall not limit my life experiences with your nanny state mentality.


So how far did you get in saying "NO! You shall not tell me I can't have a loud exhaust"?

How far did you get by saying "NO! You shall not make me ride with my headlight on all the time"?

How far did you get by saying "NO! You shall not unfairly target motorcyclists via their ACC levies"?

You're not doing too well so far, are you?

And don't even get me started on the "NO! You shall not tell me I can't smack my child" and "NO! You shall not tell me I can't smoke here".

You seem to have this belief that you're sticking it to the man but in fact you're meekly rolling over every time.

[Katman]

The fact of the matter is that by taking the initiative and trying to chart our own future we are regaining some of the power that has been gradually eroding.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Great! I accuse you of being the same sort of soft cock as those who have willingly laid down with the Nanny State and voluntarily conceded the freedoms of others by tipping the scale of popular opinion in the favour of the PC police (as has happened previously over many of the issues which you referred to) and you come up with...

You seem to have this belief that you're sticking it to the man but in fact you're meekly rolling over every time.
Fer f*cks sake... What would be the point in my rolling over when idiots like you have already launched themselves face first to our rescue, eagerly swallowing the load for the rest of us.

Congratulations you win the weekly double No YUO & IKYABWAI awards.

[mashman]

The fact of the matter is that by taking the initiative and trying to chart our own future we are regaining the power that has been gradually eroding.

now that's guido fawkesian Katman... you could get in trouble for that.

[Katman]

Congratulations you win the weekly double No YUO & IKYABWAI awards.

So what exactly do you think you've achieved so far?

You shake your fists in the air and foam at the mouth at the powers that be while they smugly take away your freedom piece by piece.

And you think I'm the deluded one?

[flyingcrocodile46]

you think I'm the deluded one?

No. I know you are.

It is you that is mandating limitations here. On what basis are you doing so? Where are the communists Mr Hoover? Please point them out for me... No, on second thoughts, Don't.

Don't be such a puppet.

[Katman]

No. I know you are.

It is you that is mandating limitations here. What basis are you doing so? Where are the communists Mr Hoover?

Don't be a puppet.

You're the one rolling over and offering yourself up for a shafting.

[flyingcrocodile46]

You're the one rolling over and offering yourself up for a shafting.

We already covered that. There is no need while your there to swallow. All I gotta do is smoke the cigarette

[Ocean1]

at what point would you suddenly sit back and think "shit, maybe we should have done something about this sooner"?

What perverted sense of adequacy leads you to believe that your "something done" is a viable response let alone the only one?


The funny thing is that the purpose of this thread is to try and avoid the very thing you all are so vehemently opposed to happening.

The funny thing is that your toadying, kowtowing noise would encourage those who might wish to foist that “protective” legislation on everyone, including you. It would worry me if I thought for a second that your opinion or mine were of the slightest interest to them.

The correct response to officious regulation is to act as if it doesn’t exist. There’s plenty in force already, and so far that’s working just fine for me. Even more unreasonable and restrictive rules on the way? Fine, all the more people find it easy to ignore them.

At what point do they give up trying to lock up a significant percentage of their population to satisfy arseholes who think they know my business better than me?

[flyingcrocodile46]

The funny thing is that the your toadying, kowtowing noise would encourage those who might wish to foist that “protective” legislation on everyone, including you.

Corr.. makes my calling him a 'puppet' seem pretty low brow. Lol

[Katman]

The funny thing is that your toadying, kowtowing noise would encourage those who might wish to foist that “protective” legislation on everyone, including you.

If we're the ones coming up with the initiatives then nobody's foisting anything on us.

[davereid]

If we're the ones coming up with the initiatives then nobody's foisting anything on us.

Ahh, that's because the we and us you speak of are actually you and them..

The only initiatives we need are of the fuck off and leave me alone type. Sadly, it will never happen, as busybody helper type people like to use force to help you. Particularly if you don't want to be helped..

[Katman]

The only initiatives we need are of the fuck off and leave me alone type.

No man's an island.

Unless, of course, you're happy to fuck off and live on a deserted island.

In that case - problem solved.

[scracha]

The correct response to officious regulation is to act as if it doesn’t exist. There’s plenty in force already, and so far that’s working just fine for me. Even more unreasonable and restrictive rules on the way? Fine, all the more people find it easy to ignore them.

At what point do they give up trying to lock up a significant percentage of their population to satisfy arseholes who think they know my business better than me?

Right, so there's basically three schools of thought.
1) Shut up, pay our rego's and take it up the arse.
2) Attempt to reduce our accident costs and hopefully the bastards will reduce our rego fees and leave us the fuck alone as we're self policing.
3) Ignore the gubbernment completely. Ride whatever contraption we want wearing whatever we want. Possibly don't give a fuck about correct licensing and certainly don't pay rego fees.

Unless some riders organisation campaigns for a form of civil disobedience by compelling the majority of motorcyclists to say "fuck them" and very visibly ride dirty (no rego) then option 3 is a waste of time IMHO. The anarchist within me wants to believe it could work, and historical events like the poll tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Charge) ("they'll abandon it if enough of us won't pay it") would indicate it could work. Unfortunately I believe most motorcyclists in New Zealand are just far too apathetic.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Right, so there's basically three schools of thought.
1) Shut up, pay our rego's and take it up the arse.
2) Attempt to reduce our accident costs and hopefully the bastards will reduce our rego fees and leave us the fuck alone as we're self policing.
3) Ignore the gubbernment completely. Ride whatever contraption we want wearing whatever we want. Possibly don't give a fuck about correct licensing and certainly don't pay rego fees.

Unless some riders organisation campaigns for a form of civil disobedience by compelling the majority of motorcyclists to say "fuck them" and very visibly ride dirty (no rego) then option 3 is a waste of time IMHO. The anarchist within me wants to believe it could work, and historical events like the poll tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Charge) ("they'll abandon it if enough of us won't pay it") would indicate it could work. Unfortunately I believe most motorcyclists in New Zealand are just far too apathetic.

Personally I'm opting for a bit of 1, 2 & 3.

I don't actually think the rates are out of line. Though there are inequities in respect to more fairly distributing them (particularly for owners of multiple bikes). I'm quite happy to get behind initiatives from organisations like BRONZ to have a crack at addressing the main inequities (without dedicating my life to it).

I am not remotely interested in..
toadying, kowtowing noise that would encourage those who might wish to foist “protective” legislation on everyone

[Maha]

Right, so there's basically three schools of thought.
1) Shut up, pay our rego's and take it up the arse.
2) Attempt to reduce our accident costs and hopefully the bastards will reduce our rego fees and leave us the fuck alone as we're self policing.
3) Ignore the gubbernment completely. Ride whatever contraption we want wearing whatever we want. Possibly don't give a fuck about correct licensing and certainly don't pay rego fees.

Unless some riders organisation campaigns for a form of civil disobedience by compelling the majority of motorcyclists to say "fuck them" and very visibly ride dirty (no rego) then option 3 is a waste of time IMHO. The anarchist within me wants to believe it could work, and historical events like the poll tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Charge) ("they'll abandon it if enough of us won't pay it") would indicate it could work. Unfortunately I believe most motorcyclists in New Zealand are just far too apathetic.

The issue is far greater than just Motorcyclist.
That horse has bolted. It is now time to halt any chance of a quinella/trifecta being collected in any form of Tax, if you know what I mean.

[miloking]

So how far did you get in saying "NO! You shall not tell me I can't have a loud exhaust"?

How far did you get by saying "NO! You shall not make me ride with my headlight on all the time"?

How far did you get by saying "NO! You shall not unfairly target motorcyclists via their ACC levies"?

You're not doing too well so far, are you?

And don't even get me started on the "NO! You shall not tell me I can't smack my child" and "NO! You shall not tell me I can't smoke here".

You seem to have this belief that you're sticking it to the man but in fact you're meekly rolling over every time.

Iam getting quite far on the other hand:

1) Just shortening my yoshi to make it louder (and not make it stick out that much) ..fuck their 95db
2)Jap bikes come with light on so i ride purposefuly with high beam on all the time not just because its illegal but because if they want light they get fucking LIGHT!
3)Bike on hold and putting my cage on hold too just to teach them a lesson...fuck their fees! (might get fake or delaler plates if they realy piss me off)

Dont have children but would smack them just fine if they were naughty and dont smoke...but dont mind the occasional class A or B as thats what you do when you live in auckland city and because fuck "them" telling me about whats illegal substance or not! Its my fucking life to live and i wont be their "worker bee" just so they can collect my taxes and tell me what to do with my 50 years on this planet!!!!! (also breath testing doesnt work on drugs so double fuck em stupid looser cops!)

Just because some faggot pencil shufflers in wellington made some retarded rules to suit their agendas doesnt mean i will follow them...

and dont get me started on speed limits and IRD...

[Mom]

Goodness me, I have held off taking part in this thread, and now I dont know how to respond...

Just how much Class A and/or Class B does it take to render what you post worthy of being moved to jokes and humour.

There is some good stuff in here, but the thread showed cracks last night, I feared it was about to become a pissing competition. You know, my e-penis is bigger than yours, I would have joined in but I dont need to compare my penis to anyone elses, I am quite happy with it. Many people have done much for the ACC cause. There are many that still continue to. Each works in their own way. None is better or worse than the other. God, Desiderata, I best go to bed...

[flyingcrocodile46]

(also breath testing doesnt work on drugs so double fuck em stupid looser cops!)

Signature quoting material right there LMAO

[caseye]

First, equality of all motorists when it comes to fees.
Second,One registration per year per person that attracts an ACC content.All other vehicles owned by that person to be registered annually at current registration costs, only.All vehicles owned to be maintained to WOF standard and seen annually! not 6 monthly.
Third,Fleet owners pay rego and ACC on all vehicles owned by the fleet operator as they attract multiple drivers etc employed by and who's ACC content is paid for by the fleet operator anyhow ,ie : status quo.
Fouth,Discounts for years in/on vehicles without accidnet or incident.
Fifth,Further discounts for advanced course attended for any/all vehicles.
Sixth,Further discounts for those riders who regularly employ ATGATT.
OK Thats my starters list.
It's simple and uncomplicated.
Now all I've got to do is get a whole bunch of hairy arsed bikers to agree to all or most of it and then put their actual support behind me to take it further.
Keep kicking this football folks lets see what else comes of it.
I'm involved in trying to change attitudes from within now and I can tell you it's no easy road.But I consider it worth a crack!.


Sorry Mark, but that's just going back to the same old demanding what we want.

The idea of this thread is to work out what we can do for ourselves, and how we can work with ACC, to improve our lot.

Until we achieve that we have no show of getting the government to take the slightest notice of what we want.

Missed in translation I suspect.
The first thing I listed were my basic ideas as to what any UNIFIED group of motorists would want to be put forward to Govt as areas of mutual concern that may be looked at by both them and us.
It was no list of demands, but a basic charter for the "unified' group of motorist representatves.
Lets keep in mind that NOW the Govt has made enimies of nearly all motorists, so it would follow that any group attempting to self represent with an attitude of co operation should include all motorists who wish to be represented.
You may have noticed that only one of my points was motorcycle specific.
This thread has turned up many points of interest.
It's also highlighting the basic problem with establishing any sort of coherent cohesion amongst minority groups.
Lets try to keep this thing moving forwards not up one anothers clackers just to score points.

[flyingcrocodile46]

the thread showed cracks last night

Pheeeewwwwwww! I'm clear, my first post wasn't til 13 after midnight.:innocent:

[flyingcrocodile46]

First, equality of all motorists when it comes to fees.
Second,One registration per year per person that attracts an ACC content.All other vehicles owned by that person to be registered annually at current registration costs, only.All vehicles owned to be maintained to WOF standard and seen annually! not 6 monthly.
Third,Fleet owners pay rego and ACC on all vehicles owned by the fleet operator as they attract multiple drivers etc employed by and who's ACC content is paid for by the fleet operator anyhow ,ie : status quo.
Fouth,Discounts for years in/on vehicles without accidnet or incident.
Fifth,Further discounts for advanced course attended for any/all vehicles.
Sixth,Further discounts for those riders who regularly employ ATGATT.
OK Thats my starters list.
It's simple and uncomplicated.
Now all I've got to do is get a whole bunch of hairy arsed bikers to agree to all or most of it and then put their actual support behind me to take it further.
Keep kicking this football folks lets see what else comes of it.
I'm involved in trying to change attitudes from within now and I can tell you it's no easy road.But I consider it worth a crack!.

Missed in translation I suspect.
The first thing I listed were my basic ideas as to what any UNIFIED group of motorists would want to be put forward to Govt as areas of mutual concern that may be looked at by both them and us.
It was no list of demands, but a basic charter for the "unified' group of motorist representatves.
Lets keep in mind that NOW the Govt has made enimies of nearly all motorists, so it would follow that any group attempting to self represent with an attitude of co operation should include all motorists who wish to be represented.
You may have noticed that none of my points were motorcycle specific, that was on purpose.
This thread has turned up many points of interest.
It's also highlighting the basic problem with establishing any sort of coherent cohesion amongst minority groups.
Lets try to keep this thing moving forwards not up one anothers clackers just to score points.

Sounds fair. Put me down for one with a side of buffalo chips. Don't tell them it's for me though as I don't want to miss out.

[Ocean1]

Right, so there's basically three schools of thought.
1) Shut up, pay our rego's and take it up the arse.
2) Attempt to reduce our accident costs and hopefully the bastards will reduce our rego fees and leave us the fuck alone as we're self policing.
3) Ignore the gubbernment completely. Ride whatever contraption we want wearing whatever we want. Possibly don't give a fuck about correct licensing and certainly don't pay rego fees.

None of the above will be effective in reducing ACC charges. Nor do I expect ignoring socially manipulative bureaucratic policy tinkering to change it.

I ignore it for the same reason I ignore loud, obnoxious children: paying them heed gives them power. Their behaviour is transparent , invidious and demeaning, to engage with them is beneath me.

That doesn’t mean I necessarily wilfully break the law every chance I get, or that I don’t have my own values which manage the risk of my actions to passers-by. I simply don’t allow the more condescending regulations to control my behaviour. I choose to see this as anti-social-engineering.



Unless some riders organisation campaigns for a form of civil disobedience by compelling the majority of motorcyclists to say "fuck them" and very visibly ride dirty (no rego) then option 3 is a waste of time IMHO. The anarchist within me wants to believe it could work, and historical events like the poll tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Charge) ("they'll abandon it if enough of us won't pay it") would indicate it could work. Unfortunately I believe most motorcyclists in New Zealand are just far too apathetic.

Right wing gubmints have a habit of introducing draconian control measures, possibly their worst feature. Still better than the alternative by the length of the back straight. This lot have shown they will back down if resisted with some accord, however I agree with you, I don’t think there’s the will within what’s effectively a small and fairly anarchistic group to front with the horsepower to make that happen.

In the meantime, fuckem.

[Paul Searancke]

First, equality of all motorists when it comes to fees.
Second,One registration per year per person that attracts an ACC content.All other vehicles owned by that person to be registered annually at current registration costs, only.All vehicles owned to be maintained to WOF standard and seen annually! not 6 monthly.
Third,Fleet owners pay rego and ACC on all vehicles owned by the fleet operator as they attract multiple drivers etc employed by and who's ACC content is paid for by the fleet operator anyhow ,ie : status quo.
Fouth,Discounts for years in/on vehicles without accidnet or incident.
Fifth,Further discounts for advanced course attended for any/all vehicles.
Sixth,Further discounts for those riders who regularly employ ATGATT.
OK Thats my starters list.
It's simple and uncomplicated.
Now all I've got to do is get a whole bunch of hairy arsed bikers to agree to all or most of it and then put their actual support behind me to take it further.
Keep kicking this football folks lets see what else comes of it.
I'm involved in trying to change attitudes from within now and I can tell you it's no easy road.But I consider it worth a crack!.

Missed in translation I suspect.
The first thing I listed were my basic ideas as to what any UNIFIED group of motorists would want to be put forward to Govt as areas of mutual concern that may be looked at by both them and us.
It was no list of demands, but a basic charter for the "unified' group of motorist representatves.
Lets keep in mind that NOW the Govt has made enimies of nearly all motorists, so it would follow that any group attempting to self represent with an attitude of co operation should include all motorists who wish to be represented.
You may have noticed that only one of my points was motorcycle specific.
This thread has turned up many points of interest.
It's also highlighting the basic problem with establishing any sort of coherent cohesion amongst minority groups.
Lets try to keep this thing moving forwards not up one anothers clackers just to score points.

Ideas very close to some of yours have already been promoted as concepts/proposals to the relevant authorities and are a part of ongoing productive discussions.

Paul Searancke

[Ocean1]

PS, there is one thing that perhaps most enthusiasts could agree on.

If there were a deal less bureaucratically generated hurdles involved in setting up small, local club track facilities we might see an increase in club membership, (where hopefully some of the crustier dudes could mentor the whippersnappers) and a corresponding decrease in rampant antisocial road riding behaviour.


I don’t think there’s the will within what’s effectively a small and fairly anarchistic group to front with the horsepower to make that happen.

Anyone care to attempt to prove me wrong?

[MSTRS]

Anyone care to attempt to prove me wrong?

There's a few prepared to put themselves out there. The many look, listen and think "You don't represent what I want, so fuck off" and then continue to do nothing, except grizzle when the next nasty is foisted on us all.

Get used to the new comfort zone, peoples, but don't get too comfortable. For it won't be long...

[Katman]

There will always be a small percentage of motorcyclists who see motorcycling as nothing other than being synonymous with rebellion. While there's no doubt a time and place for rebellion I don't believe that motorcycling deserves the ignominy of being the barrow to push it.

Make no mistake, over the coming years motorcycling will be subject to change - and frankly I believe that motorcycling needs to be subjected to change in order for it to survive and grow.

We can either sit back and do nothing and allowed uninformed and ill-conceived changes to be imposed upon us or we can show ourselves to be a mature, reasoned and integral part of society and grab hold of the initiative before the powers that be set about consigning us to history.

[PrincessBandit]

And so it goes on. I reckon any of tptb who undoubtedly regularly view these threads will be laughing so hard at the kiddies squabbling in the sand pit.

There is proof aplenty on here that we will remain fractured and easily conquerable because there is so little room for negotiation and compromise between us. On the one hand we have people trying to come up with ways in which to halt the erosion of our rights to afford and enjoy riding, on the other we have the "fuck off and stop trying to tell me what I should or could do to help" (as if the government isn't gonna have the final say in that case).

Nick Smith must be laughing all the way to the proverbial. He is counting on the losers (btw, to those "loosers" out there, it only has one o) to be his stalking horse and win the day for him.

[Mom]

Nick Smith must be laughing all the way to the proverbial. He is counting on the losers to be his stalking horse and win the day for him.

I hope he is enjoying a laugh reading this, because it will distract him from the real agenda of a large and growing number of "people" that have had enough. Enough of the sly and underhand way that the government of the day, or any day for that matter, seem to think is acceptable to make changes for the supposed greater good of all, by sleathily eroding a system that is respected and envied around the world. The arrogance of "the man" is staggering, us sheeple will simply roll over and take it time and time again afterall.

Laugh away Minister Myth, there is a storm brewing make no mistake.

[fossil]

That day is closer than you think... in fact its within 6 months by my estimate
Processes are already being put in place to make this a reality... and resume again this coming Monday when i have a formal meeting with ACC personnel

And while ATGATT cannot reduce crashes it certainly CAN reduce injuries, and therefore is a valid point in this whole debate. Also note, (thread title above) as the thread is actually about a 'new approach' to working WITH ACC and not about 'reducing crashes' ATGATT is extremely relevant

I for one would love to see riding in shorts on any two wheeled vehicle powered by a petrol motor made an offence, as should riding with no gloves on... but I will leave that alone for now.

The outcome of your meeting with ACC was?

[Katman]

The outcome of your meeting with ACC was?

You may be waiting a while.

Stoney's sulking.



Had enough of the double standards on here
I will focus on BRONZ issue's from now on and KB can whistle dixie for all I care

See ya all round on the roads...I aint comin back to this website or forum again, I will work on promoting BRONZ and other road safety initiatives I am involved in with TPTB eslewhere

[caseye]

You may be waiting a while.

Stoney's sulking.

Sulking? Stoney! na mate his reply will come soon enough.Come on you lot lets actually try to keep this going straight ahead instead of making it "the crusades"
First prority, getting as big a concensuss as we can.

[DEATH_INC.]

Jesus, once again a fairly sensible and constructive thread has deteriorated in to a bunch of childish name calling and shit.
Back to paying yer rego's/acc, or what will no doubt be soon massive fines for not having one.
As you were kiddies.

[MSTRS]

Jesus, once again a fairly sensible and constructive thread has deteriorated in to a bunch of childish name calling and shit.
Back to paying yer rego's/acc, or what will no doubt be soon massive fines for not having one.
As you were kiddies.

Have to agree with this.
Mind you, expecting concensus and co-operative behaviour from the Me Generation is a hiding to nothing

[Katman]

Jesus, once again a fairly sensible and constructive thread has deteriorated in to a bunch of childish name calling and shit.


That sort of thing seems to follow me around. :whistle: (And don't call me Jesus - you'll have Flyingcrocodile wanting to erect a cross).

I suppose we could take heart from the fact that of the 40 members who have posted in this thread only 4 seem vehemently opposed to the idea of compromise and working with ACC.

[mashman]

Have to agree with this.
Mind you, expecting concensus and co-operative behaviour from the Me Generation is a hiding to nothing

It's not stopped the govt from doing what they want, irrespective of submissions... could be a way to go :shifty:

[MSTRS]

Good point. Are you saying that pollies are part of the Me Generation...their actions suggest it is so. They just do what they want, regardless of all 'advice'.

[mashman]

Good point. Are you saying that pollies are part of the Me Generation...their actions suggest it is so. They just do what they want, regardless of all 'advice'.

absolutely... how else would you explain their lack of thought when it comes to doing what's right for the majority, but doing what's right for business instead... personal rewards.

[davereid]

I suppose we could take heart from the fact that of the 40 members who have posted in this thread only 4 seem vehemently opposed to the idea of compromise and working with ACC.

All because you know its going to happen, and you help choose the lube does not mean its not rape....

I appreciate that you honestly believe that bringing in more rules for bikers will protect us from being taxed out of existence.

I am of a more cynical school of thought...

Its my opinion that motorcycles will never be safe.

And so like smoking, drinking, hamburgers and jungle-gyms more than 4 ft tall, Nanny will seek to tax, ban, legislate, and otherwise end the nasty things existence.

Personally, I tell Nanny to get fucked. I'll pay the fine when she catches me. And maybe one day, she will have good enough systems to make me pay her safety levy.

But, until then, I'll spend the money on beer, and other stuffs she hates.

[Katman]

Personally, I tell Nanny to get fucked.

That probably won't phase her too much.

She'll still smile as she takes your toys off you.

[davereid]

She'll still smile as she takes your toys off you.

She will take yours too... the only difference is, she will have have your money in her pocket.

[Katman]

She will take yours too... the only difference is, she will have have your money in her pocket.

So your stance is - "they're going to take our bikes away from us anyway so there's no point doing anything about it".:blink:

[davereid]

So your stance is - "they're going to take our bikes away from us anyway so there's no point doing anything about it".:blink:

No, I tirelessly defend freedom.

I regularly lobby my M.P., I write to newspapers and other M.P.s and make submissions on everything I can, defending the right of people to live their own lives. I'm not foolish enough to think that I make much difference, as in general, kiwis are quick to accept authority.

But I can consider myself to be a consistent, rational, and hard to ignore (even when ignored !) defender of freedom.

I am the first to admit that the Political world takes no notice, and as clearly demonstrated on KB, kiwis love to enforce rules on others. This thread is full of "compel helmets, gloves, boots jackets " etc type people, all of whom can clearly demonstrate a saving to the state, a health advantage, or common sense to their demands.

I know I won't win, but I'll stick with my simple, freedom loving and non violent principles.

[liljegren]

Here's my rant- Kiwis are really bad at telling people they're f******s, friends noisy neighbours etc. When I see a fellow biker riding like a dick, ie without the proper gear, given the chance I say to him/her, hey I ride too, and I've been down the road, and my uninvited advice t you, is GET DRESSED! All the gear, all the time. Cant expect the gummint to tell people how to do it right, we have to get involved.
BTW 36yrs on two wheels, no deaths yet.

[davereid]

my uninvited advice t you, is GET DRESSED! All the gear, all the time. Cant expect the gummint to tell people how to do it right, we have to get involved. BTW 36yrs on two wheels, no deaths yet.

And my uninvited response would be to punch you on the nose ! Except I'm non violent (sigh). Maybe thats where I'm going wrong...

At least the KB wankers surface early to establish quod erat demonstrandum

[That looks like fun]

This freedom thing is far overrated :shifty: I spent a lot of time and energy fighting for what I believed in, I argued against the system the inequalities of it all. Waved my flag higher than all the rest. Then one day it was pointed out to me (by one of the people I thought I stood for and whose rights and freedoms I fought for) that I had become a part of the problem :shit:
I defend the right of anyone to protest. That doesn't mean I will agree with all protesters nor their methods. Do I think jumping on a whaling ship in Antarctic waters is a sensible protest? No but if the protester had true conviction to his cause and was prepared to go to any end including jail to make his stand I would respect him, he didn't, I don't.
None payment of rego, valid protest? If when it all turns to custard and you end up with a huge medical bill you pay yourself :yes:
Yelling at the top of your voice to all and Sundry "its a road not a race track" will it slow people down or will people just stop listening (even if you say something sensible)?
My protests to date? I don't buy fuel from BP, I never went to a rugby game during that infamous Springbok tour, do I encourage others to do the same? yes I do. Do I condemn those that don't? No. Only Government Employee in the Naki (to my knowledge) who took part in the general strike in the eighties. I wont cover all my protest but you get the picture. Action not words, while still maintaining RESPECT for others rights :yes:
I used to love it when the boss came into a meeting and told us plebs he had come up with a new way of working that would enhance our lives. He looked a bit taken back when I asked him what made him think my life needed enhancing?
So all the name calling and posturing in some ways is good. It allows people to vent their spleen and in the belief that by typing the word FUCK in a sentence on the internet people will listen to it.
To me it all comes back to a personal choice, at present we seem to try to influence choice by punishment. Be that bullying, peer pressure or the law. :angry:
The knowledge I have gained in life tells me that somewhere in the real world their are people quietly working at fixing all my problems and yet others creating new ones for me, all done with the best of intentions. To those people I ask, can we please try
Encouraging people to make good choices by reward Its worth a crack Nigel :yes:

[Ocean1]

Its worth a crack Nigel :yes:

Ripper post mate.

The reason the stick's out as opposed to the carrot is that ACC, (and the social welfare system in general) has a different view of "fair". There's a conflict in their model too, the high risk people are sometimes the ones who can't pay for their behaviour...

Me, I don't need their carrots, I got my own collection, I just want them to keep their greasy mits off them.

[mashman]

Ripper post mate.

The reason the stick's out as opposed to the carrot is that ACC, (and the social welfare system in general) has a different view of "fair". There's a conflict in their model too, the high risk people are sometimes the ones who can't pay for their behaviour...

Me, I don't need their carrots, I got my own collection, I just want them to keep their greasy mits off them.

I think our stick was bigger than their stick... but they know we'll accept a carrot :)

[freedom-wedge]

No, I tirelessly defend freedom.

I regularly lobby my M.P., I write to newspapers and other M.P.s and make submissions on everything I can, defending the right of people to live their own lives. I'm not foolish enough to think that I make much difference, as in general, kiwis are quick to accept authority.

But I can consider myself to be a consistent, rational, and hard to ignore (even when ignored !) defender of freedom.

I am the first to admit that the Political world takes no notice, and as clearly demonstrated on KB, kiwis love to enforce rules on others. This thread is full of "compel helmets, gloves, boots jackets " etc type people, all of whom can clearly demonstrate a saving to the state, a health advantage, or common sense to their demands.

I know I won't win, but I'll stick with my simple, freedom loving and non violent principles.

I agree with most of what you say on KB, however there have been times when violence has been needed to ensure freedom in times past.

[freedom-wedge]

Ripper post mate.

The reason the stick's out as opposed to the carrot is that ACC, (and the social welfare system in general) has a different view of "fair". There's a conflict in their model too, the high risk people are sometimes the ones who can't pay for their behaviour...

Me, I don't need their carrots, I got my own collection, I just want them to keep their greasy mits off them.

So its come to this finally, they who have the carrots and they who covet others carrots, someones always after thine carrots it seems. :blink:

[dipshit]

however there have been times when violence has been needed to ensure freedom in times past.

No doubt what this guy was thinking...

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/7581206/christchurch-shooter-charged-with-attempted-murder/

[DEATH_INC.]

I know I won't win, but I'll stick with my simple, freedom loving and non violent principles.
That's cool, and I do tend to agree with this, but tell me, why should Mr Katman and co have to pay for it?

Maybe we should simply drop the acc system completely, and go user pays...

[Berries]

You've got my vote.

[freedom-wedge]

No doubt what this guy was thinking...

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/7581206/christchurch-shooter-charged-with-attempted-murder/

Was he making a bid for freedom or fame, either way hopefully hes dipped out on both counts.

Unfortunatley as the stakes are raised for drug offenses, so is the willingness to avoid the consequences at all costs right or wrong.

[Pixie]

That probably won't phase her too much.

She'll still smile as she takes your toys off you.

And here lies the problem

Like most NZers,Katman has accepted authority and does not believe he can fight it.
Break the law? Oh God fuck no!

It's a funny thing though - in NZ if you protest you are sure to get no more than a smack on the hand (or are those smacks banned too) for protesting.
Vandelise a $2 million dome? No problem if you REALLY believe in what you are doing.
In Europe a protest may get you a 40mm tear gas grenade up the khyber.Yet they still stand up for themselves.

The French on the other hand have little respect for authority.Their Republic was founded on the concept and protest is celebrated.

The Italians - the authorities tend to give up before they even get to upsetting the populace.

NZ needs a population transplant.
A Nation of Shopkeepers

[Pixie]

Dont have children but would smack them just fine if they were naughty and dont smoke...

Smack someone else's kids then.It'll do them good.They won't think they are living in fairyland anymore.

[Katman]

And here lies the problem

Like most NZers,Katman has accepted authority and does not believe he can fight it.


I'm no stranger to a fight. I just happen to believe the fight needs to be directed at cleaning up or own back-yard.

[Bikemad]

I'm no stranger to a fight. I just happen to believe the fight needs to be directed at cleaning up or own back-yard.

examples please katman................

[Katman]

examples please katman................

We need to change the attitude present in far too many motorcyclists that we have the right to treat public roads as racetracks.

We need to make greater efforts to avoid having accidents.

We need to improve the manner in which many motorcyclists interact with other road users.

In short, we need to start acting like grown ups if we expect the powers that be to treat us as such.

[Bikemad]

ya startin to sound like a politician dude..............or do you work for ACC............

[Paul in NZ]

I wonder what the acc cost is going to be for this accident...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3929483/Twelve-teens-scattered-in-party-van-crash

Fuggin people movers....

[miloking]

I'm no stranger to a fight. I just happen to believe the fight needs to be directed at cleaning up or own back-yard.

That just means you have accepted the authority no matter how much you try to sugar coat it for your ego...

[MSTRS]

That just means you have accepted the authority no matter how much you try to sugar coat it for your ego...

Actually, no. It means he accepts that we, as motorcyclists, hold the power in making the moves necessary to being left alone by policy makers.
Motorcyclists, in general, have a shameful record of un-necessary injury etc, and although 'we' seem to be better than has been the case in the past, there is still a long way to go. No good protesting 'unfair targeting of motorcyclists', when in fact the pollies have a point...
I'm sure all here are highly skilled, safe riders - I know I am - but the significant number of individuals who are not, bring crap down on the collective. Bit like the whole class being kept in after school, because little Johnny was out of line.

[DMNTD]

Actually, no. It means he accepts that we, as motorcyclists, hold the power in making the moves necessary to being left alone by policy makers.
Motorcyclists, in general, have a shameful record of un-necessary injury etc, and although 'we' seem to be better than has been the case in the past, there is still a long way to go. No good protesting 'unfair targeting of motorcyclists', when in fact the pollies have a point...
I'm sure all here are highly skilled, safe riders - I know I am - but the significant number of individuals who are not, bring crap down on the collective. Bit like the whole class being kept in after school, because little Johnny was out of line.

Cut it out...that simply stinks of the truth :shutup:

[Bikemad]

Actually, no. It means he accepts that we, as motorcyclists, hold the power in making the moves necessary to being left alone by policy makers.
Motorcyclists, in general, have a shameful record of un-necessary injury etc, and although 'we' seem to be better than has been the case in the past, there is still a long way to go. No good protesting 'unfair targeting of motorcyclists', when in fact the pollies have a point...
I'm sure all here are highly skilled, safe riders - I know I am - but the significant number of individuals who are not, bring crap down on the collective. Bit like the whole class being kept in after school, because little Johnny was out of line.
too true Dave?........ but this will continue as long as there are young people riding motorcycles im afraid..........no amount of legislation will change this in my opinion........us old geezers are more aware of the consequences of our actions and the pain and suffering involved when it goes pear shaped

[MSTRS]

too true Dave?........ but this will continue as long as there are young people riding motorcycles im afraid..........no amount of legislation will change this in my opinion........us old geezers are more aware of the consequences of our actions and the pain and suffering involved when it goes pear shaped

Not Dave, but otherwise you are on to it. Many of the m/c hooligan-type of the past are now in cages (boyracers)...maybe we should be encouraging those that are left to follow them? Then that category can get even more of a hammering...while our act is so clean we get left alone.:yes:

[Katman]

but this will continue as long as there are young people riding motorcycles im afraid..........no amount of legislation will change this in my opinion........us old geezers are more aware of the consequences of our actions and the pain and suffering involved when it goes pear shaped

True, no amount of uninformed legislation will change it. Uninformed legislation will only fuck things up for the rest of us. If there is to be legislation then we must be part of the procedure. To be included in the decision making though we have to be seen as fit to offer an opinion worth being listened to seriously.

An improvement in the manner that motorcyclists conduct themselves is completely achievable - it just comes down to enough of us wanting it to happen.

[caseye]

True, no amount of uninformed legislation will change it. Uninformed legislation will only fuck things up for the rest of us. If there is to be legislation then we must be part of the procedure. To be included in the decision making though we have to be seen as fit to offer an opinion worth being listened to seriously.

An improvement in the manner that motorcyclists conduct themselves is completely achievable - it just comes down to enough of us wanting it to happen.

I'm with you on this one Katman, I'd like it to happen and I'm willing to actually do something about it, but there are a hell of a lot of people out there who ride who see your/our opinion/vision as flawed and unachieveable.Or worse as somehow making us cow tow to the pollies instead of being able to help achieve a result that is acceptable to both them(pollies) and us as riders.

[Bikemad]

sorry Mark but i guess i am one of those who think its unachievable..........in a perfect world maybe but as long as there are young inexperienced riders on high powered machines........hell even some experienced guys i know ......ahem.....get swept up in the moment sometimes...........there are gonna be riders gettin killed or maimed............ya cant legislate against stupidity.......end of story
personally i think the ACC content of the rego fee should be based on ya individual riding history........case by case.......much like other insurance contracts........coz thats all it is after all............i also believe if you have comprehensive medical cover then you should be ACC exempt.........my two cents worth

[Katman]

but as long as there are young inexperienced riders on high powered machines

Maybe that's an issue that needs addressing.

[caseye]

sorry Mark but i guess i am one of those who think its unachievable..........in a perfect world maybe but as long as there are young inexperienced riders on high powered machines........hell even some experienced guys i know ......ahem.....get swept up in the moment sometimes...........there are gonna be riders gettin killed or maimed............ya cant legislate against stupidity.......end of story
personally i think the ACC content of the rego fee should be based on ya individual riding history........case by case.......much like other insurance contracts........coz thats all it is after all............i also believe if you have comprehensive medical cover then you should be ACC exempt.........my two cents worth

Dont be sorry mate, you have a valid point.Young , Stupid/Dumb and full of cum types are out there in every society or group. We all twist it on a bit from time to time, most of us do so on a straight stretch of road or a well known bit of twisty at the most opportune times.Even in breaking the standard rules we try to maintain our own standards of safety,ie: no one coming, clear road ahead etc etc.
I truely like the idea of a case by case ACC content for each individual but unless someone from within the biking comunity puts it forward it'll never fly.The Pollies would say it's too hard to impliment.
We'd say: well actually, x number of courses attended, years in saddle, we asses this risk as x, y, Z, percentage and so it can/could be done.We become part of the solution.
We could also say, hey mr gubbermint, each person who owns 10 motorcycles and has a comprehensive insurance policy that applies to each and every one of the bikes he own and or rides should only pay the ACC content ONCE! WoW what an idea!
These are things that are possible, if we could all agree on what was a good idea or not and then put it forward to Govt via an accpeted, creditable group of interested involved motorists, not just bikers I might add.
Anyway I know I dont have to tell you to keep at it mate, without debate nothing ever gets started.

[Bikemad]

yeah i think a case by case thing is what we should be lobbying for...........in this computer age it would be easy enough for them to impliment,they get the stats regarding kms ridden in any 6 month period with ya wof check so regular riders would be easy to identify and give a rebate or discount to based on injury accidents VS kms ridden or something to that effect.
maybe bike shops should have to vet their customers better in terms of experience/attitude etc and perhaps price the bikes accordingly or have the customer put up some sort of good behaviour bond before giving some twat the means to kill himself or someone else for that matter........
why arent dirt bikes payin something too???????????
i reckon theres a host of ideas that need to be looked at mate.........look forward to the next bftp thingy and chewin the fat with ya

[Mom]

why arent dirt bikes payin something too???????????


They are actually. They pay by petrol levy and by a component of their PAYE. Just the same as us road regisitered bikers pay. Just we pay more via our rego. Heaven help us if we have a couple of diesel vehicles in the gargre as well.

Many things to think about. As citizens of good old NZ us bikers stack up to be getting a really raw deal no matter how responsible we might be.

[fossil]

"We could also say, hey mr gubbermint, each person who owns 10 motorcycles and has a comprehensive insurance policy that applies to each and every one of the bikes he own and or rides should only pay the ACC content ONCE! WoW what an idea!"

And he is the only one who rides them, because if anybody else did they wouldn't be covered?
That is why it is the motorcycle/car/whatever that is levied not the rider. Otherwise everybody would need to carry proof of cover to drive/ride. Of course then there would be an excellent reason to pull over every motorcyclist at every opportunity to check their cover.

[Bikemad]

agreed..... but they can pull you over anytime as the law stands now to check ya license but they dont actually do it.........so whats the difference

[miloking]

Maybe that's an issue that needs addressing.

People(adult of course) should be free to ride whatever they want...and who are you or goverment or some NZTA pencil pusher to tell us what is or isnt appropriate mode of transport for me.
Isnt that fucking 250cc limit for learners and restricted stupid enough? Just refer to the stats presented by ACC and their claim that highest percantage of claims come from 250cc riders (how on earth did they manage to raise the rego fees the way they did is beyond me)....so how is restricting high capacity bikes going to help anything?

[MSTRS]

Isnt that fucking 250cc limit for learners and restricted stupid enough? Just refer to the stats presented by ACC and their claim that highest percantage of claims come from 250cc riders ...

Well, duh! Of course that category has the highest % of claims. That's what happens when people are learning...they make mistakes/errors of judgment. I can only imagine the carnage that would exist if there was no cc restriction.
Do you really think it would be responsible to allow 17yo Little Johnny to get on a ZX14? Yes - there will be exceptions (my boy on a Busa at 15) that would be fine, but they would be quite rare. Girls would probably be fine (it's a brain-development thing, apparently) but would be more sensible in their choice of weapon if there was no cc restriction. As for the over 25s...the exceptions would be a much higher %, but overall, still not enough to relax the rules more than just time stages.
IT TAKES TIME TO LEARN TO HANDLE BIKES and the cemeteries are full of those that didn't.

[Bikemad]

IT TAKES TIME TO LEARN TO HANDLE BIKES and the cemeteries are full of those that didn't.

thats the bottom line right there............perhaps eligibility for a M/C license should only be considered after holding a full car license for a couple of years or something giving people time to develop roadcraft..........

[MSTRS]

thats the bottom line right there............perhaps eligibility for a M/C license should only be considered after holding a full car license for a couple of years or something giving people time to develop roadcraft..........

Agreed EXCEPT it should be the other way round.
Usually, only the rider is hurt when s/he gets it wrong. Better that than a numpty in charge of 2 tonnes of battering ram...

[That looks like fun]

Big chance here to push for a positive step forward. :shifty: Car driving age just being raised, I am all for allowing bike licence for 2 years (under 250) before car licence. :scooter: Imagine how much more aware motorist would be of bikes if they themselves had ridden one for 2 years. :yes:

[Katman]

Car driving age just being raised, I am all for allowing bike licence for 2 years (under 250) before car licence.

Interesting idea, although I think the cc limit should be such that it rules out the likes of the ZXR, CBR, RGV etc.

[MSTRS]

Interesting idea, although I think the cc limit should be such that it rules out the likes of the ZXR, CBR, RGV etc.

Better to go with the HP restriction, as per Oz.

[Katman]

Better to go with the HP restriction, as per Oz.

That would work too - but I'm thinking along the lines of considerably less HP than the Aussies allow. 15-16 year olds could be restricted to something that is nothing more than a to and from school run-about.

[MSTRS]

Not scroters...please. Those things are death traps.
Better to go with the Brit model (up to 125 for 15 yo) for learner stage, hp restriction for next stage, then open for full licence at 18+

[Katman]

Better to go with the Brit model (up to 125 for 15 yo) for learner stage, hp restriction for next stage, then open for full licence at 18+

Sounds good to me (but scooters would be just as capable of instilling good road sense).

[jellywrestler]

Sounds good to me (but scooters would be just as capable of instilling good road sense).
Dunno whether I agree with you on this one.
Kids don't very often differentiate between scooters and bicycles/skateboards whereas with a proper motorcycle with two different braking systems and a gearbox to learn and manage the step up requires a bit more nouse and with that they seem to respect they have something to be weary of etc.
The other thing is the horrid little wheels on scooters are susceptable to potholes etc and less stable than motorcycles.
power too is not a bad thing, I use to work at massey university in palmerston north and dunno how many times I saw scooters put themselves in danger simply because they didn't have enough ponies to keep up with the traffic

[Katman]

Dunno whether I agree with you on this one.
Kids don't very often differentiate between scooters and bicycles/skateboards whereas with a proper motorcycle with two different braking systems and a gearbox to learn and manage the step up requires a bit more nouse and with that they seem to respect they have something to be weary of etc.
The other thing is the horrid little wheels on scooters are susceptable to potholes etc and less stable than motorcycles.
power too is not a bad thing, I use to work at massey university in palmerston north and dunno how many times I saw scooters put themselves in danger simply because they didn't have enough ponies to keep up with the traffic

You might be right Spyda but I don't think we want to go suggesting that the powers that be ban scooters.:shutup: A little too close to the bone if you get my drift.

[davereid]

Not scroters...please. Those things are death traps.
Better to go with the Brit model (up to 125 for 15 yo) for learner stage, hp restriction for next stage, then open for full licence at 18+

Actually, statistically scooters are very safe.

For real safe motorcycling we need real balls.

I'd suggest a 125cc, 12hp limit for all motorcyclists. Only racers need more than that, the speed limit is, after all, only 100km/hr, which even 125cc motorcycles can do, all day every day.

Ban pillion passengers, then even if a car driver is at fault, the motorcycle passenger is not at risk.

All we need is the will to put in the restrictions.

[igormortis]

Has anyone brought up a Govt. (ACC) subsidy on approved safety gear?

[fossil]

Has anyone brought up a Govt. (ACC) subsidy on approved safety gear?

How about no gst on safety gear?

[miloking]

I'd suggest a 125cc, 12hp limit for all motorcyclists. Only racers need more than that, the speed limit is, after all, only 100km/hr, which even 125cc motorcycles can do, all day every day.


Well if this is the way it has to be....
Do you think its possible to turbo charge 125cc or just run it on methanol? :)

[miloking]

Well, duh! Of course that category has the highest % of claims. That's what happens when people are learning...they make mistakes/errors of judgment. I can only imagine the carnage that would exist if there was no cc restriction.
Do you really think it would be responsible to allow 17yo Little Johnny to get on a ZX14? Yes - there will be exceptions (my boy on a Busa at 15) that would be fine, but they would be quite rare. Girls would probably be fine (it's a brain-development thing, apparently) but would be more sensible in their choice of weapon if there was no cc restriction. As for the over 25s...the exceptions would be a much higher %, but overall, still not enough to relax the rules more than just time stages.
IT TAKES TIME TO LEARN TO HANDLE BIKES and the cemeteries are full of those that didn't.

And there you have it...why are we all punished for "people learning" by cracking their skulls? (meaning why is my over 600cc rego gone up nearly double yet 250cc didnt????)
And of course its not ok for little Timmy to buy ZX14 even tho some of the larger bikers are probably safer than those deadly GN250s we force the learners to ride....

[Katman]

And there you have it...why are we all punished for "people learning" by cracking their skulls? (meaning why is my over 600cc rego gone up nearly double yet 250cc didnt????)
And of course its not ok for little Timmy to buy ZX14 even tho some of the larger bikers are probably safer than those deadly GN250s we force the learners to ride....

I knew you'd finally 'get it'.

It makes no difference why we're all being punished - the fact is that we are.

It is therefore in our best interest to reduce the number of cracked skulls. (And it's not only learners who are 'cracking skulls').

[MSTRS]

And there you have it...why are we all punished for "people learning" by cracking their skulls? (meaning why is my over 600cc rego gone up nearly double yet 250cc didnt????)
And of course its not ok for little Timmy to buy ZX14 even tho some of the larger bikers are probably safer than those deadly GN250s we force the learners to ride....

It's the Earnings Comp part - people with big bikes (tend to) earn a lot more than those with 250s. That said, Merc/Beemer/Porsche/etc owners don't part more than Corolla owners, which makes a complete mockery of the bike breakdown.
Also, I don't agree with your premise that big bikes are safer than little ones. All bikes have an equal chance of crashing/falling over. The difference is that big bikes are ridden by those with some experience (they did their falling over on their GN). So the rider determines the real risk.

[jellywrestler]

Has anyone brought up a Govt. (ACC) subsidy on approved safety gear?
you must be joking, i remember when ARAI helmets, the one they (ACC) used in their own advert encouraging riders to wear the safety gear had an import duty of 23%!
this was to protect the local industry which with all due respect weren't producing a helmet with anywhere near the protection qualities of the Arai.
Thankfully nowadays that production techniques have improved that the difference between the best and worst helmets has considerably narrowed

[miloking]

I knew you'd finally 'get it'.

It makes no difference why we're all being punished - the fact is that we are.

It is therefore in our best interest to reduce the number of cracked skulls. (And it's not only learners who are 'cracking skulls').

Yes, and thats exacly the part that gets most frustrating...as iam not cracking my skull and never did and there is nothing i can personally do to stop little Timmy on GN250 from cracking his.
So if more young people take on motorcycling (therefore causing more accidents due to learning process) ..we can expect further increases in ACC fees and possibly new legislations coming to make motorcycling "safer"...

Maybe the only "solution" is that we should all discurage young people from riding or taking on motorcycling so its only experienced riders riding..and once accident stats improve because of it everything will go back to normal...well at leats thats the vibe iam geting from all this...

[Katman]

...well at leats thats the vibe iam geting from all this...

That would be because English is your second language.

[Squiggles]

Maybe the only "solution" is that we should all discurage young people from riding or taking on motorcycling so its only experienced riders riding..and once accident stats improve because of it everything will go back to normal...well at leats thats the vibe iam geting from all this...

Everytime we thrash out the age-experience thing we get the same result, we're ALL crashing. Males & Females both young and old...

[That looks like fun]

Alrighty then :yes: Sarcastic reply to one side there are some good positives coming through in this thread. So now the million dollar question, how to put forward these initiatives for debate by people who can make them happen ( Polly ti-scions :shifty: )
Should we go with Rent A Crowd? (Minto, Bradford, McCarten), BRONZ, Lobby local M.P? Perhaps another Bikoi? :mellow:
Where to from here? :blink:

[davereid]

Maybe the only "solution" is that we should all discurage young people from riding or taking on motorcycling so its only experienced riders riding...

That's a side effect of high ACC levies, and a complicated and restrictive licensing system.

My nephew bought an RG150 as a commuter. He's just in the process of selling it, as the rego and insurance are getting too expensive.

A friend I ride with wanted to get a bike for his wife, she was keen too. But the economics of buying a 250, then selling it to buy another bike at the end of the learner restriction period just made it easier to stick with the status quo, or at least plan "b" which is to get the restricted on a bike borrowed off me, and just leave getting her own bike till she is fully licensed.

These things will never stop a committed rider. But the guy who just wants a bike for commuting, and easy parking may well be put off, and just get a car instead.

I personally think that that is a loss to biking. Most of the old jokers on here started as commuters, as they could not afford a car.

[fossil]

http://www.acc.co.nz/news/WPC087752

What the hell is Scotty Wilkins advertising in my post for?
Few he's gone

[Katman]

http://www.acc.co.nz/news/WPC087752



Sounds promising.

[mashman]

Sounds promising.

That it is... I look forwards to finding out a more detail... shame none of it can be released in a political style leak :)

[R-Soul]

If I'm riding around town (Wellington) for uni and groceries etc, I don't put on my full gear. A regular leather jacket, helmet and gloves is all that I need in my opinion, for going max 50km/h.

Sure, because your skin wont come off in large meaty strips at 50km/hr... :innocent:

[bogan]

Sure, because your skin wont come off in large meaty strips at 50km/hr... :innocent:

In my experience it didn't, jeans and sneakers for a 50kmhr off is fine. Though due to some offroad experience I bailed off the bike pretty good :shit:

[R-Soul]

One way of doing it would be to reduce rego costs if you can show you have been on one of the recommended courses.

Govt has $23m in their budget spend on reducing accidents.

so set up decent subsidised bike riding courses, and insist that everyone attend them before getting a license. It wont stop teh idiots that currently have lcenses from doing dumb things, butyou have o start somewhere.

Also, a change n mindset must start with us patrolling our own idea of whet is right. its kind of like drink driving - nobody is for it in principle, but when cometh the hour to stand up and be counted, and stop your mate from driving home, it becomes all *nudge nudge, wink wink, dont let the Popo find you*.

People boasting about their bad habits on the road (like speeding or stunting, etc) should not be laughed with - they should be met with stony cold silence.
EVEN if they are experienced and good at riding (hell, even safe) because they encourage others to do dumb things.

[Ocean1]

One way of doing it would be to reduce rego costs

Your dreaming.

The reason they took your money away from you was so they could spend it on stuff you wouldn't have. They'll be using all of it to preach at us, you wait and see.

Arseholes.

[Berries]

To the second part, I wonder how many bike crashes are caused by people racing on the roads ? I deal with crashes on a daily basis and to be honest it is very very rare that I see a bike crash where someone was grossly exceeding the speed limit. Racing on the roads may not go down well with the people who see it but I am not convinced it has much bearing on crashes, certainly nowhere near the level that plain old poor decision making or non defensive riding contribute.
It’s going back a couple of weeks now, but I thought I’d answer my own question. Only one crash last year has specifically been coded as racing, with a calculated speed well in excess of 140km/h. This one however does not make it in to the speed related crashes for some reason. Of all the crashes last year where speed of some kind was recorded against a bike only two were above 120km/h. One an admitted 130 while affected by alcohol, and the fastest being in excess of 150 in a 50km/h area while being pursued by the Police. In one other crash witnesses said the bike could have been doing 150, but who knows.

So racing on the roads doesn’t really feature in the crash stats. Doing 90 in to a 65k corner isn’t what I would call racing, it’s riding.

Found a few interesting things while trawling through the 140 ‘speed’ related crash reports. I don’t think they will add much to the thread but I’ve wasted my time looking at them so you can waste your time reading it.

In total the national database shows 1083 injury crashes last year involving bikes, with 149 having speed coded as a factor. Removing those where it was actually a different vehicle speeding leaves 140 crashes. Speed is not always easy to determine after a crash. Yes you can examine the skidmarks and crash damage and do some calculations relating to the coefficient of friction of that type of road surface etc etc, but that kind of in-depth analysis only really happens for the more serious crashes. In 58 of the 140 crashes there is no speed entered on to the crash report, just an assumption that because the rider crashed he must have been travelling too fast, which in many cases may well be true. I state this so you know to question speed related crash stats when they get thrown around. In the majority of cases it is informed guesswork. Take for instance a couple of quotes from crashes that have subsequently been recorded as speed related – “Likely riding too fast but no evidence" and “No evidence to suggest excessive speed".

But anyway, the interesting stuff. 140 riders, only four of them were women. Average age was 36. Only 68 of the riders had a full bike licence. Average age for learners was 30, with half of them riding bikes larger than 600cc. 31 riders had no bike licence at all.

Average engine size was 697cc of those 111 where it was recorded. Half of those unrecorded were Harleys so the true figure will be higher. The majority of crashes, 92, just involved the bike. The rest involved another vehicle, often a head on after drifting wide on a corner or even failing to give way to a car at an intersection. SMIDNSY works both ways apparently.

I looked at all the factors but won’t bore you with that. My own ‘twat’ factor was used quite often. I apologise if you are one of the statistics or know someone who was, but, being frank and at the risk of sounding like Katman, some of these people deserved to crash. But then again many didn’t. To use the technical term, they just fucked up.

Some of the things I learned were –

1) If you are going to get involved in a Police pursuit, put your helmet on first.
2) If you are going to do a wheelie make sure nobody is turning in front of you or about to pull out of a parking space.
3) If you have got a Harley, best stick to the straight bits.
4) Don’t ride MX bikes on the road.
5) Riding pissed can get messy.
6) Don’t stamp on the back brake when you get in to a corner too hot.

Most of these crashes were avoidable. Inexperience was a big factor for those learners who crashed, particularly when cornering, but basic mistakes and poor riding skills were the major factors in my opinion. To bring it back on topic, one of the most telling numbers above when it comes to possible interventions is that more than half the riders did not have a full bike licence. How the $30 can be targeted at them I don’t know. But then I have to ask, why should my $30 be targeted at people who are riding outside of the law anyway ? Actually, seeing as I am starting to rant, I don’t see why I should be paying an additional 30 bucks in the first place. Money grabbing bastards.

[dipshit]

It’s going back a couple of weeks now, but I thought I’d answer my own question....

... Some of the things I learned were –

1) If you are going to get involved in a Police pursuit, put your helmet on first.
2) If you are going to do a wheelie make sure nobody is turning in front of you or about to pull out of a parking space.
3) If you have got a Harley, best stick to the straight bits.
4) Don’t ride MX bikes on the road.
5) Riding pissed can get messy.
6) Don’t stamp on the back brake when you get in to a corner too hot.


Thanks for sharing. Makes some interesting reading.

Bloody car drivers. When is the government going to do something about improving the standard of car drivers in this country...???

[shrub]

In total the national database shows 1083 injury crashes last year involving bikes, with 149 having speed coded as a factor. Removing those where it was actually a different vehicle speeding leaves 140 crashes.

That is very different from what Our Masters tell us - if we were to listen to them even travelling 6 kmh over the speed limit almost guarantees killing innocent widows and children.

It was also interesting to see how many were caused by lack of skill and by unlicensed riders - I had no idea the number was so high. I'm also curious what percentage were caused by other road users - do you have that data readily available?

[Berries]

That is very different from what Our Masters tell us - if we were to listen to them even travelling 6 kmh over the speed limit almost guarantees killing innocent widows and children.
I think many people on KB and in real life would say that the focus on speed has gone too far, possibly to the detriment of safe driving practices within the speed limit. The science is obvious, if you crash then the slower you are going the more survivable the crash is going to be, but then driving sober and within the speed limit as we are constantly told to do does not make you immune from wrapping yourself around a power pole. Poor driving has been forgotten about.


It was also interesting to see how many were caused by lack of skill and by unlicensed riders - I had no idea the number was so high. I'm also curious what percentage were caused by other road users - do you have that data readily available?
No. I was only looking at crashes where the bike was travelling ‘too fast for the conditions’ which does imply that it was the riders fault. Note that these crashes only make up 14% of all bike crashes last year, so there is a huge amount of info missing.

[shrub]

I think many people on KB and in real life would say that the focus on speed has gone too far, possibly to the detriment of safe driving practices within the speed limit. The science is obvious, if you crash then the slower you are going the more survivable the crash is going to be, but then driving sober and within the speed limit as we are constantly told to do does not make you immune from wrapping yourself around a power pole. Poor driving has been forgotten about. No. I was only looking at crashes where the bike was travelling ‘too fast for the conditions’ which does imply that it was the riders fault. Note that these crashes only make up 14% of all bike crashes last year, so there is a huge amount of info missing.

I still maintain that if we're serious about the road toll we should return to having a man walking in front of all horseless carriages holding a red flag. The only problem is a lot of men with red flags would be run over when the driver fell asleep.

Talking to Charley Lamb and he commented that where engine size was given in the database, the mode was 250 and that a very high percentage of bike crashes were due to stomping on the back brake and either sliding into other traffic or off the road, and I believe that suggests incompetence to the point where the rider should not be allowed to ride - maybe learner bikes should have the back brake disconnected? My guess is that would cut accident rates.

The figures you cite and what I have seen also discounts the argument of katman et al that most motorcycle accidents are caused by people riding aggressively and stupidly; and in fact suggest that simple inability to handle a bike is the problem. I reckon that riding a bike is a very highly skilled pursuit, and it took me several years to learn enough to stop falling off - my first few years were punctuated by regular crashes. It is certainly much harder than driving a car sufficiently well not to crash, and the licensing process bears no relationship to the skill required.

[Berries]

Talking to Charley Lamb and he commented that where engine size was given in the database, the mode was 250 and that a very high percentage of bike crashes were due to stomping on the back brake and either sliding into other traffic or off the road, and I believe that suggests incompetence to the point where the rider should not be allowed to ride - maybe learner bikes should have the back brake disconnected? My guess is that would cut accident rates.
Not sure about incompetence, but a lack of experience/knowledge/training definitely. Even some full licence holders did that. One thing not available on the crash reports is actual riding experience. You can ride only on sunny summer weekends and still be inexperienced, so it isn’t just learners.

[Katman]

and at the risk of sounding like Katman,


Steady on, you make it sound like it's a bad thing. :whistle:



The figures you cite and what I have seen also discounts the argument of katman et al that most motorcycle accidents are caused by people riding aggressively and stupidly;

I've always believed that the majority of motorcycle accidents have been the result of bravado or incompetence. Berries post suggests I'm bang on money.

[shrub]

Not sure about incompetence, but a lack of experience/knowledge/training definitely. Even some full licence holders did that. One thing not available on the crash reports is actual riding experience. You can ride only on sunny summer weekends and still be inexperienced, so it isn’t just learners.

Yeah, that's certainly true. I'd be interested to do some research on relationships between amount of riding done and crash rates. Using the WOF data it would be possible to get reasonably reliable data if we operate with the hypothesis that most people do the vast majority of riding on bikes that belong to them. If Johnny Bonneville's WOF records show that he rides 1500 km a year, then it could be reliably assumed that is pretty well all the riding he does, whereas Mike Ninja's records show 15000 kms we could assume that is his riding experience. I would say that the hypothesis that the more one rides the less likely one is to have an accident would be supported.

I know for me, my bike is in bits getting some cosmetic loving and when I put her back on the road I'll be riding very, very carefully because my head has switched to cage mode and I need to get back to thinking like a biker before I can engage in any spirited riding.

Oh for access to the data and the time while I have SPSS on my laptop.

[shrub]

Not sure about incompetence, but a lack of experience/knowledge/training definitely.

On the subject of training, I have a bit of a problem with most of the advanced rider training on offer. I have done a few courses with a couple of trainers and most of them have been focussed on riding fast on Levels or Ruapuna. A little bit of very basic braking, but the rest has been how to corner fast.

The risk is you get someone with a year or two experience under their belt doing a course like that and they come out feeling confident to cut up the Akaroa GP like a pro; which they do, and often result in fuel for Katman's argument. The courses I did didn't teach to look for shadows and damp road surface, slow cars with traffic banked up behind and impatient overtaking, blind spots in traffic, parked cars with turning front wheels and all the other stuff that keeps me alive every day. I did a course nearly 30 years ago at Bay Park, and part of the course was making us ride fast around the speedway track. I learned to slide my CB750 and brake hard on gravel, and those skills have kept me upright many times. Only problem is if a trainer were to suggest that their students ride their Gixxers and Ducatis fast on a gravel road there would be a mass revolt.

[MSTRS]

I learned to slide my CB750 and brake hard on gravel, and those skills have kept me upright many times. Only problem is if a trainer were to suggest that their students ride their Gixxers and Ducatis fast on a gravel road there would be a mass revolt.

I am comfortable going 'fast' on gravel with my CB750, but not on my Gixxer. The difference (apart from the weighting geometry) is the tyres. Wide, low profile tyres and gravel are anathema to each other.

[dipshit]

Wide, low profile tyres and gravel are anathema to each other.

Not to mention all the plastic bodywork! :pinch:

[R-Soul]

That is very different from what Our Masters tell us - if we were to listen to them even travelling 6 kmh over the speed limit almost guarantees killing innocent widows and children.

It was also interesting to see how many were caused by lack of skill and by unlicensed riders - I had no idea the number was so high. I'm also curious what percentage were caused by other road users - do you have that data readily available?

Speed is relative: Maybe the speed was not excessive for that part of the road, but it was excessive for the rider...

The stats seem to indicate that we are idiots that do dumb things with minimal training, and riding above our abilities. Nah... can't be that..

[dipshit]

The stats seem to indicate that we are idiots that do dumb things with minimal training, and riding above our abilities. Nah... can't be that..

Course not. Bloody car drivers. We need better training for the car drivers.

[R-Soul]

Not sure about incompetence, but a lack of experience/knowledge/training definitely. Even some full licence holders did that. One thing not available on the crash reports is actual riding experience. You can ride only on sunny summer weekends and still be inexperienced, so it isn’t just learners.

That should be implemented immediately in reporting - as well as how long since coming back to motorcycling- I am sure that those figures woul highlight some glaring facts.

[Ocean1]

6) Don’t stamp on the back brake when you get in to a corner too hot.


Not sure about incompetence, but a lack of experience/knowledge/training definitely.


I've always believed that the majority of motorcycle accidents have been the result of bravado or incompetence.

Fear.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration…


Actually, seeing as I am starting to rant, I don’t see why I should be paying an additional 30 bucks in the first place. Money grabbing bastards.

You don’t have to justify a good rant mate, just let rip.

[Katman]

Found a few interesting things while trawling through the 140 ‘speed’ related crash reports.

Any chance you could give us a similar analysis of your observations of the motorcycle fatality stats from the other thread?

[Berries]

I could, but I am not sure that it will add anything worthwhile to the discussion other than to sadden a lot of people on here who knew some of the people who are no longer with us.

The post you refer to shows that in two thirds of the crashes the rider was at fault. The info I have to hand shows that 19 of the 49 crashes involved no other vehicle. Nearly three quarters of the crashes occurred on the open road and losing control on a bend accounted for 60% of all the crashes. Alcohol was a factor in 1 in 6 crashes. Beyond that, I'd need to have a closer look to make sure I don't post anything inaccurate.

[Katman]

I could, but I am not sure that it will add anything worthwhile to the discussion other than to sadden a lot of people on here who knew some of the people who are no longer with us.

The post you refer to shows that in two thirds of the crashes the rider was at fault. The info I have to hand shows that 19 of the 49 crashes involved no other vehicle. Nearly three quarters of the crashes occurred on the open road and losing control on a bend accounted for 60% of all the crashes. Alcohol was a factor in 1 in 6 crashes. Beyond that, I'd need to have a closer look to make sure I don't post anything inaccurate.

Cheers for that.

I firmly believe that in order to move forward it's imperative we dispel, once and for all, the myth that most motorcycle accidents are someone else's fault. Only then we will start looking at ourselves collectively in a manner that will see an improvement.

[shrub]

Cheers for that.

I firmly believe that in order to move forward it's imperative we dispel, once and for all, the myth that most motorcycle accidents are someone else's fault. Only then we will start looking at ourselves collectively in a manner that will see an improvement.

I think very few motorcyclists that have been riding longer than 10 minutes think most motorcycle crashes are someone else's fault, and rather that the fault is reasonably evenly split between the parties. What annoys me is the opinion that is prevalent amongst Our Masters (and it seems, with you) that the overwhelming majority of crashes are the primary fault of the motorcycle rider. That's why we have had our levies increased, why we're not listened to by the policy makers and why the road conditions and road rules are not designed to cater for the unique characteristics of motorcycles as vehicles.

[Katman]

I think very few motorcyclists that have been riding longer than 10 minutes think most motorcycle crashes are someone else's fault, and rather that the fault is reasonably evenly split between the parties. What annoys me is the opinion that is prevalent amongst Our Masters (and it seems, with you) that the overwhelming majority of crashes are the primary fault of the motorcycle rider. That's why we have had our levies increased, why we're not listened to by the policy makers and why the road conditions and road rules are not designed to cater for the unique characteristics of motorcycles as vehicles.

One of the most prevalent phrases uttered by motorcyclists for as long as I can remember has been "but most of our accidents are the fault of the car driver" - when, in fact, the very opposite is the case.

The sooner we come to terms with that concept, the sooner we'll start making moves to change it.

[shrub]

One of the most prevalent phrases uttered by motorcyclists for as long as I can remember has been "but most of our accidents are the fault of the car driver" - when, in fact, the very opposite is the case.

The sooner we come to terms with that concept, the sooner we'll start making moves to change it.

I think that's bullshit and that crashes have a wide range of causes and there is no real leading cause. I also think most motorcyclists realise this.

[R-Soul]

I think that's bullshit and that crashes have a wide range of causes and there is no real leading cause. I also think most motorcyclists realise this.

Actually no, its not bullshit - have a look at some of teh angry reactions on this site when ACC levy increases were first announced. It was everybody eleses fault but us.

In a way the ACC levy increase has perhaps made us sit up and take notice of our own actions a bit.

I think that we need to emphasiss the seriousness of the consequences for relatively inexperienced riders to be tootling around, without good training or technique. a ride on a bike is treated with the same respect as taking a car for a sundaty ride really - and as pointed out, it actually takes a lot more skill, awareness, and experience to be able to do so at anything close to the levels of risk of a car.

[Kickaha]

I think that's bullshit and that crashes have a wide range of causes and there is no real leading cause. I also think most motorcyclists realise this.

It was quoted by several people including a Christchurch motorcycle shop owner in a radio interview that 75% of motorcycle accidents were caused by "someone else"

I would disagree that "most motorcyclists realise this" as that figure was also quoted on here more times than the correct figures

[dipshit]

I would disagree that "most motorcyclists realise this" as that figure was also quoted on here more times than the correct figures

And in the local press down this way too...

"The accident statistics were "bent" and he said it was usually car drivers who caused accidents and motorcyclists who were injured."

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/78163/cars-cause-most-crashes-rider


"Most accidents are caused by car drivers on phones, not looking properly or being complacent."

http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/wanaka/78575/anger-motorcycle-club

[shrub]

It was quoted by several people including a Christchurch motorcycle shop owner in a radio interview that 75% of motorcycle accidents were caused by "someone else"

I would disagree that "most motorcyclists realise this" as that figure was also quoted on here more times than the correct figures

Some people, including some Christchurch motorcycle shop owners, shouldn't be taken all that seriously about anything. Check out the poll I'm running, and you'll see that the majority of respondents either believe that motorcyclists are the cause of bike accidents or that the cause of crashes is a combination of factors.

[warewolf]

One of the most prevalent phrases uttered by motorcyclists for as long as I can remember has been "but most of our accidents are the fault of the car driver" - when, in fact, the very opposite is the case.So you keep saying, which may technically be the case, but 48% are the fault of the other vehicle according to the latest analysis I can find. (the 2008 numbers analysed by Dr Lamb). That 2% I really don't think is worth splitting hairs about.

The unfortunately reality is that other road users DO collide with us when they violate our right of way, and we are not always going to be able to avoid them. Yes, this latter is an admirable goal, but it's unrealistic. Sure, we can be better, smarter riders. Big whoop. Most of us already strive for that. We still won't avoid every single accident that's the fault of the other driver. Just ain't gonna happen, no matter how well trained or expert or "safer" we become. There has to be some acknowledgement that the other side needs work, too. The tighter the screws are turned down on us, the harder we push back - hence the finger pointing at the other side.

As far as "working with" the ACC etc goes. Well, maybe they should change their tune and work with US! Motorcyclists are usually forgotten, ignored, or flatly refused a seat at the table when it comes to roading & traffic policy decisions etc. It's not like we're not trying. An example? See how ACC treated BRONZ wrt the numbers they used to justify this last round of increases. Surely if ACC were above-board they would have presented the numbers to BRONZ quick smart and said, "See!" but they've done nought but filibuster AFAIK.

[Katman]

So you keep saying, which may technically be the case, but 48% are the fault of the other vehicle according to the latest analysis I can find. (the 2008 numbers analysed by Dr Lamb). That 2% I really don't think is worth splitting hairs about.


Quite frankly, Professor Lamb's report is so seriously flawed it stands to do us more harm than good if it is subject to too close a scrutiny.



As far as "working with" the ACC etc goes. Well, maybe they should change their tune and work with US! Motorcyclists are usually forgotten, ignored, or flatly refused a seat at the table when it comes to roading & traffic policy decisions etc. It's not like we're not trying. An example? See how ACC treated BRONZ wrt the numbers they used to justify this last round of increases. Surely if ACC were above-board they would have presented the numbers to BRONZ quick smart and said, "See!" but they've done nought but filibuster AFAIK.

You're a slow learner, aren't you?

We have beaten ourselves senseless against the brick wall that is The Powers That Be. Where has it gotten us?

There is a very real reason why we are not being listened to.

[fossil]

So you keep saying, which may technically be the case, but 48% are the fault of the other vehicle according to the latest analysis I can find. (the 2008 numbers analysed by Dr Lamb). That 2% I really don't think is worth splitting hairs about.

The unfortunately reality is that other road users DO collide with us when they violate our right of way, and we are not always going to be able to avoid them. Yes, this latter is an admirable goal, but it's unrealistic. Sure, we can be better, smarter riders. Big whoop. Most of us already strive for that. We still won't avoid every single accident that's the fault of the other driver. Just ain't gonna happen, no matter how well trained or expert or "safer" we become. There has to be some acknowledgement that the other side needs work, too. The tighter the screws are turned down on us, the harder we push back - hence the finger pointing at the other side.

As far as "working with" the ACC etc goes. Well, maybe they should change their tune and work with US! Motorcyclists are usually forgotten, ignored, or flatly refused a seat at the table when it comes to roading & traffic policy decisions etc. It's not like we're not trying. An example? See how ACC treated BRONZ wrt the numbers they used to justify this last round of increases. Surely if ACC were above-board they would have presented the numbers to BRONZ quick smart and said, "See!" but they've done nought but filibuster AFAIK.

You need to catch up with the news Colin. Try this link http://krnewsroom.blogspot.com/2010/...ion-group.html

I am surprised that you place so much faith in a club that has under 300 members(Auckland) and doesn't even have a national body.

[warewolf]

Quite frankly blah-de-blahMeh, forget it. Can't be bothered.

[miloking]

One of the most prevalent phrases uttered by motorcyclists for as long as I can remember has been "but most of our accidents are the fault of the car driver" - when, in fact, the very opposite is the case.

The sooner we come to terms with that concept, the sooner we'll start making moves to change it.

Umm do you even ride motorcycle? Because from some of the shit you say, i wonder sometimes...

Are you sure you are not on ACC payroll or something?

[warewolf]

You need to catch up with the news Colin. Try this link http://krnewsroom.blogspot.com/2010/...ion-group.htmlBad link, try: http://krnewsroom.blogspot.com/2010/07/acc-sets-up-accident-prevention-group.html

... and to that I say, HOLY SHIT!!! :shit: Wonders will never cease.


I am surprised that you place so much faith in a club that has under 300 members(Auckland) and doesn't even have a national body.Not faith, just an example.

[shrub]

Quite frankly, Professor Lamb's report is so seriously flawed it stands to do us more harm than good if it is subject to too close a scrutiny.

No, it just doesn't fit your argument therefore you have decided it's incorrect. Charley is a highly intelligent and very well resourced man who worked very closely with a graduate student who spent some 400 hours researching his paper and it has been checked and double checked by several other academics who have ironed out any inconsistencies and flaws.

And Charley is doing a lot for motorcycling and motorcycle safety, no doubt the reason he gets so readily attacked from the anonymity of a computer keyboard.

[shrub]

So you keep saying, which may technically be the case, but 48% are the fault of the other vehicle according to the latest analysis I can find. (the 2008 numbers analysed by Dr Lamb). That 2% I really don't think is worth splitting hairs about.

The unfortunately reality is that other road users DO collide with us when they violate our right of way, and we are not always going to be able to avoid them. Yes, this latter is an admirable goal, but it's unrealistic. Sure, we can be better, smarter riders. Big whoop. Most of us already strive for that. We still won't avoid every single accident that's the fault of the other driver. Just ain't gonna happen, no matter how well trained or expert or "safer" we become. There has to be some acknowledgement that the other side needs work, too. The tighter the screws are turned down on us, the harder we push back - hence the finger pointing at the other side.

As far as "working with" the ACC etc goes. Well, maybe they should change their tune and work with US! Motorcyclists are usually forgotten, ignored, or flatly refused a seat at the table when it comes to roading & traffic policy decisions etc. It's not like we're not trying. An example? See how ACC treated BRONZ wrt the numbers they used to justify this last round of increases. Surely if ACC were above-board they would have presented the numbers to BRONZ quick smart and said, "See!" but they've done nought but filibuster AFAIK.

Very well put, thank you. It's interesting to see that in my highly scientific poll it shows that over 80% of participants believe motorcycle crashes are either caused by the rider or by a combination of factors.

[Katman]

No, it just doesn't fit your argument therefore you have decided it's incorrect.

I didn't say it was incorrect.

It is however, highly misleading.

[bogan]

I didn't say it was incorrect.

It is however, highly misleading.

It depends on what you were expecting, it was a decent report on causes of multiple vehicle accidents with a motorcycle. But it was a shit report on motorcycle accident causes cos he ignored single vehicle ones. Some sort of intro outlining that the report only focused on around (60% iirc) of motorcycle accident and the other 40% were not due to other drivers at all, would have cleared up some confusion and made it a lot less misleading.

[Katman]

It depends on what you were expecting, it was a decent report on causes of multiple vehicle accidents with a motorcycle. But it was a shit report on motorcycle accident causes cos he ignored single vehicle ones. Some sort of intro outlining that the report only focused on around (60% iirc) of motorcycle accident and the other 40% were not due to other drivers at all, would have cleared up some confusion and made it a lot less misleading.

I believe the single vehicle accidents were deliberately ignored by Professor Lamb because they are almost impossible to pin the blame on someone else. Not the degree of reason required to make the report entirely credible.

The fact that the report only covered multi-vehicle accidents in two of New Zealands major cities means that it was not representitive of the broad spectrum of motorcycle accidents.

And his reference to the drop in the number of accidents per 10,000 motorcycles is so poorly thought out it beggars belief that it could be the work of a professor. (And in fact it wasn't - he plucked that graph straight from the Ministry of Transport's factsheet because it made us look good). It should be obvious to anyone that the number of motorcycles is increasing at a completely different rate to the number of motorcyclists riding them.


Very well put, thank you. It's interesting to see that in my highly scientific poll it shows that over 80% of participants believe motorcycle crashes are either caused by the rider or by a combination of factors.

Ah yes, the Clayton's poll.

My poll shows a rather more telling tale.

[warewolf]

It is however, highly misleading.Wow, so unlike your assessment???

He didn't ignore single-vehicle crashes, he just didn't go in to detail. They were referenced to put the MVMA ones in to context of overall.

He might have used detail on the nation's largest city with over 25% of the nation's population, and another large regional capital which is the nation's second-largest city, but he also compared those numbers to the national totals. Not representative? Seems a pretty large slice of the pie to me. Where's your better data? Beats the hell out the Tasman police district using a mere 9 fatalities - which are patently a statistical outlier - to set/justify policy.


It should be obvious to anyone that the number of motorcycles is increasing at a completely different rate to the number of motorcyclists riding them.
Why should it? Where's the data?

C'mon katman, you keep saying the guy is wrong (or worse), so show us why rather than being snide, and front up with your supposed correct data & analysis. If you really do have better data, table it.

[R-Soul]

Wow, so unlike your assessment???

He didn't ignore single-vehicle crashes, he just didn't go in to detail. They were referenced to put the MVMA ones in to context of overall.

He might have used detail on the nation's largest city with over 25% of the nation's population, and another large regional capital which is the nation's second-largest city, but he also compared those numbers to the national totals. Not representative? Seems a pretty large slice of the pie to me. Where's your better data? Beats the hell out the Tasman police district using a mere 9 fatalities - which are patently a statistical outlier - to set/justify policy.

Why should it? Where's the data?

C'mon katman, you keep saying the guy is wrong (or worse), so show us why rather than being snide, and front up with your supposed correct data & analysis. If you really do have better data, table it.

To be fair, even if he looked at ALL the accidents in cities only (not just double vehicle accidents) they would skew the statitstics on m/c riders responsibility. Yes, Tasman may only have 9 accidents, but if they are all motorcyclists having fatal accidents by themselves because they cant control ther vehicles, then they are statistically significant. And whats more, if ots not just Tasman, but 10 (hey I have no idea how many others there are in total - there are about 10 rugby areas) other rural areas with similar statistics, then it really is just cherry picking stats to support your case. "Scientific interference" I think its called.

[Berries]

Any chance you could give us a similar analysis of your observations of the motorcycle fatality stats from the other thread?
Well ok, but only because I read so much stuff on KB that bears no relationship to what I see in real life when it comes to crash causes. And I am enjoying the bunfight between you and Shrub.

So anyway, I have had a closer look at the 49 fatal crashes last year. Nineteen were single bike only and 30 involved another party, some of which were bike vs bike.

Fault. Well in the single vehicle crashes fault of some kind has been attributed to every rider. This is not surprising as if you lose control you are at fault according to CAS, and in only one of those crashes where this did happen were any road factors mentioned – wet road and some surface bleeding. In multi vehicle crashes fault is less obvious using CAS. If five vehicles are involved then it is feasible that they are all partly at fault so the numbers don’t add up. I therefore looked at the crash reports and the codes so that only the two prime vehicles have fault attributed and I came up with the following. Rider at fault in 33 crashes, other vehicle/person at fault 11 crashes, shared fault three crashes and other (ie bike or road fault) two crashes. In the 30 multi vehicle crashes CAS shows the prime fault as rider in 15 and other vehicle in 13. More info may be gleaned from coroners or SCU reports but I don’t have access to all of them, and normally any relevant information would be backcoded in to CAS

To get the others at fault out of the way first. The AA said four car drivers were at fault. Well we have failing to give way coming out of a driveway or intersection, turning right in front of riders, swinging wide on a curve, losing control on a curve and a u-turn on a corner accounting for seven crashes, then two where the blame was shared where the car was doing a u-turn which may have been safe if the motorbike hadn’t been speeding, in one case 50 over the limit. One other where fault was with both parties and then two involving trucks failing to give way when pulling out of intersections, plus one other truck fault.

But they are the minority. Riders were at fault in multi vehicle crashes more than the other driver. A number of these would likely have been single vehicle crashes if a car hadn’t been coming the other way when a rider crossed the centre line on a left hand bend. Perhaps if there had not been a head on some of them would not have been fatal either.

Bike only crashes, well, it has to be said there are some idiots out there. But in many cases, it could have been me. In a lot of crashes it appears as if the rider misjudged the corner and arrived too fast, but under the speed limit, then panic braked or just left the road and hit something hard. There are a couple of high speed crashes, 170km/h suspected in one, and a 150km/h pursuit in another, but the rest were normal road speeds. A few bikes with no WOF for a number of years, but no indication as to whether the bike had any faults apart from in one crash. Alcohol was factor in a few crashes as well. One thing to remember is that there are usually no witnesses to a single vehicle crash, apart from the first on scene who might say that the bike overtook them at speed a few minutes earlier.

I guess many people on KB will know some of the riders involved and like Shrub said somewhere else, some of you may have actually been at the scene. So just a few facts for you based on the 33 ‘at fault’ riders –

Average age 35
32 of them male
One bike under 250cc
Three bikes 250 to 599cc
Fifteen bikes 600 to 1000cc
Nine bikes over 1000cc
Five with engine size unknown although at least a couple were over 900cc.

Full licence 15
Learner 4
Restricted 2
No bike licence 6
Disqualified 4
Suspended 1
No licence 1

Of those riders involved in fatal crashes who were suspended, disqualified or who didn’t have a bike licence, 92% were at fault. I guess it is an attitude thing, often they were the ones with the bikes with no WOF. Road conditions - ice was a factor in one crash, wet roads in seven, the other 25 were all dry. In 71% of all the fatal crashes the speed limit was 80 or 100km/h, ie non urban.

So they’re the facts according to TPTB. Throwing in my own opinion now, there were only two crashes that would appear to have been unavoidable, a tyre blow out causing a loss of control, and an oil spill that took out four bikes. The rest, well they are sad for all involved, but apart from a couple of idiots they were all needless deaths, whether you blame the rider or the car driver.

There were ‘only’ 49 crashes, not enough to make valid assumptions about the riding population as a whole, especially when the difference between getting killed and getting away with it can be a matter of millimetres or seconds. The main stat in my view is this. In two thirds of the fatal crashes involving motorbikes last year the rider was deemed to be at fault. This corresponds with my own view of motorbike crashes in general, that 1/3 are the rider on his own, 1/3 are multi vehicle where the other vehicle is at fault and 1/3 are multi vehicle where the rider is at fault. Stop blaming the cagers is all I would say. You can’t influence them, so just look after number one.

[MSTRS]

Stop blaming the cagers is all I would say. You can’t influence them, so just look after number one.

Excellent post.
It might be fairer to say - Blame whoever you like, but never forget who is in control of the motorcycle...

[Katman]

Stop blaming the cagers is all I would say.

Thankfully there are signs that seem to indicate the beginning of a widespread realisation that what we have been lead to believe for far too long is not, in fact, the case.

Just like alcoholism or drug addiction, we first must be honest with ourselves and admit there's a problem.

[shrub]

I am enjoying the bunfight between you and Shrub.

So am I. Katman is a worthy adversary, although he doesn't get that I actually agree with almost everything he says. The reason I haven't had an off in 25 years has nothing to do with car drivers and everything to do with the fact that I hate pain even more than I hate looking at a broken motorcycle belonging to me, so I ride to avoid both. I think your stats suggest that 99% of bikers do the same, or at least to the best of their ability because we all know that when we're on a bike we're vulnerable. Riding well is a matter of life and death, and I challenge anyone to find more than a few loonies who disagree.

But your stats about the percentage of people who didn't have the correct licenses speaks volumes: it would suggest that a lot of crashes happen to idiots who don't take motorcycling seriously, and that leads me on to where I differ from Katman.

Yesterday I took the cage to Bunnings to buy some shit, and in a 10km return trip I had to brake hard when a car pull out in front of me, I had to take evasive action when a halfwit changed lanes without indicating and some stupid woman in a people carrier tailgated me. This suggests that a big part of the problem is that too many people don't take driving seriously enough. Even at 50 kmh I am hurling a steel and glass box weighing over a tonne down the road at 15m every second, and surrounded by other steel boxes. I just can't afford to chat to my passenger, eat my pie (mmmm...pie....), adjust my stereo or drift off into oblivion; yet most car drivers do.

It is my belief that it's a miracle that the road toll isn't a brazillian a year because most car drivers don't take driving seriously enough. And that's where Katman and I part company - he believes that the only thing that needs to change is rider behaviour and attitude, whereas i believe that the only thing that needs to change is the attitude and behaviour of ALL road users.

If ALL road users were educated about a little more than the terrible danger of driving at 61 kmh, or driving pissed, then the road toll would plummet. If all road users were shown that they're not just responsible for their own safety, but the safety of the poor prick going to Bunnings in his Bluebird, the lycra boy on the treadly and the bloke riding his bike, then maybe we'd see a change. If ALL road users were shown that driving a car or riding a bike is something that actually takes a lot of skill, then things would change.

But that won't happen.

[Katman]

And that's where Katman and I part company - he believes that the only thing that needs to change is rider behaviour and attitude, whereas i believe that the only thing that needs to change is the attitude and behaviour of ALL road users.


We seem to be getting closer and closer to full agreement then because I have never said that rider behaviour and attitude is the only thing that needs to change.

I agree entirely that improvement across all road users needs to be made but I still maintain that the greatest improvement to our own safety will come from looking within.

I applaud anyone making efforts to improve driving habits but as this is a motorcycle forum the emphasis here needs to be on how to improve riding habits.

[bogan]

If ALL road users were educated about a little more than the terrible danger of driving at 61 kmh, or driving pissed, then the road toll would plummet. If all road users were shown that they're not just responsible for their own safety, but the safety of the poor prick going to Bunnings in his Bluebird, the lycra boy on the treadly and the bloke riding his bike, then maybe we'd see a change. If ALL road users were shown that driving a car or riding a bike is something that actually takes a lot of skill, then things would change.


couldn't agree more with that statement, it could happen, but it would have to be forced, 10 yearly driving tests complete with mandatory remedial classes for people who fail or those with heaps of infringement points. Is that a price we will be prepared to pay for safer roads do you think?

[shrub]

couldn't agree more with that statement, it could happen, but it would have to be forced, 10 yearly driving tests complete with mandatory remedial classes for people who fail or those with heaps of infringement points. Is that a price we will be prepared to pay for safer roads do you think?

It all comes down to how its pitched - we're willing to pay with more speeding tickets etc, because that has been pitched to us. If Our Masters were willing to look at skill instead of the blunt instrument of speeding tickets, we'd all be a lot safer; and that's where we need to come in. We have a much higher stake in raising the overall skill level of all road users than anyone else because a minor clip in traffic pisses car drivers off, but at best injures a motorcyclist. We need to develop a voice that will influence decisions, and while I applaud Katman et al for recognising that we are the first stage in increasing rider safety, it cannot stop there.

[bogan]

It all comes down to how its pitched - we're willing to pay with more speeding tickets etc, because that has been pitched to us. If Our Masters were willing to look at skill instead of the blunt instrument of speeding tickets, we'd all be a lot safer; and that's where we need to come in. We have a much higher stake in raising the overall skill level of all road users than anyone else because a minor clip in traffic pisses car drivers off, but at best injures a motorcyclist. We need to develop a voice that will influence decisions, and while I applaud Katman et al for recognising that we are the first stage in increasing rider safety, it cannot stop there.

Dunno bout willing, but we put up them cos they are avoidable and you only get em for breaking the law. You're right about it being pitched though, all the adds etc that get pinned on crashing due to speed are simply driver inattention, pity they don't do many targetted adds for that, however the intersection wheel was very good.

I agree with you about the first step being us, and as katman says it needs to be done first before we as bikers call for cagers to become safer. However, most of us are also cagers and can call for such things without involving the biker issue at all. I think rather than develop a voice for it we use the existing ones, namely the AA, surely they have covered things like regular driver testing before?

[warewolf]

It is my belief that it's a miracle that the road toll isn't a brazillian a year because most car drivers don't take driving seriously enough. And that's where Katman and I part company - he believes that the only thing that needs to change is rider behaviour and attitude, whereas i believe that the only thing that needs to change is the attitude and behaviour of ALL road users.

If ALL road users were educated about a little more than the terrible danger of driving at 61 kmh, or driving pissed, then the road toll would plummet. If all road users were shown that they're not just responsible for their own safety, but the safety of the poor prick going to Bunnings in his Bluebird, the lycra boy on the treadly and the bloke riding his bike, then maybe we'd see a change. If ALL road users were shown that driving a car or riding a bike is something that actually takes a lot of skill, then things would change.+1

Inattention and careless lazy driving is not enforced, even if it happens right under the noses of the cops and includes blatant law transgressions. Sometimes the consequences of habitually driving that way is fatal. Driving or riding well is not something that is encouraged.

[warewolf]

I applaud anyone making efforts to improve driving habits but as this is a motorcycle forum the emphasis here needs to be on how to improve riding habits.Hmmm so you must love BRONZ then for their Ride Right Ride Safe courses, eh? Surely that must count as taking ownership & responsibility for ourselves. Shame LTSA & ACC don't want to support such initiatives.

[shrub]

I agree with you about the first step being us, and as katman says it needs to be done first before we as bikers call for cagers to become safer. However, most of us are also cagers and can call for such things without involving the biker issue at all. I think rather than develop a voice for it we use the existing ones, namely the AA, surely they have covered things like regular driver testing before?

My problem with us getting safer first is that, from my observation, most motorcyclists are significantly more skilled on the road than most car drivers are. Sure there are idiots out there, and any Saturday or Sunday they cluster on the road to Akaroa, or park outside pubs and get pissed, but they are in the minority. I know a lot of bikers and almost without exception they take their riding very seriously, ensure their bikes are maintained to a high standard, wear the best gear they can and don't have crashes. If we wait for the power ranger on his shiny new Gixxer to learn that getting your knee down on the open road is the mark of an idiot, or for the bad ass hard core biker to learn that getting pissed and riding is stupid, we'll be waiting forever. And we can't expect the noob on the GN to master counter steering, or the born again on his Harley to learn road positioning and how to read traffic because skill takes time and/or training.

If we wait for every biker to get his act together we'll be riding flying bikes and taking holidays on the moon before that happens, and in the meantime too many of us will be taken out through inadequate skill by other road users. As the stakeholders with the most to gain from a universal improvement in road skills and driver attitude, we need to get involved in pushing for change now, and demanding change in rider and driver skill concurrently. Instead of saying "we've all lifted our game, now we want everyone else to do the same" we need to say "there are too many idiots and incompetents on the road on bikes and in cars, we want to see that change. Now".

If we make it a universal demand for a change in driving skill and attitude we may just get car drivers, the AA, truck drivers and even cops on our side. It's recognising that we're not the whole problem, we're part of the problem, and if we're going to do something we might as well address the whole problem.

[Katman]

If we make it a universal demand for a change in driving skill and attitude we may just get car drivers, the AA, truck drivers and even cops on our side.

You seriously need to get it in your head that we will not be listened to until we prove ourselves worth listening to.

While we can have such poor statistics thrown back at us we will achieve nothing.

[bogan]

My problem with us getting safer first is that, from my observation, most motorcyclists are significantly more skilled on the road than most car drivers are. Sure there are idiots out there, and any Saturday or Sunday they cluster on the road to Akaroa, or park outside pubs and get pissed, but they are in the minority. I know a lot of bikers and almost without exception they take their riding very seriously, ensure their bikes are maintained to a high standard, wear the best gear they can and don't have crashes. If we wait for the power ranger on his shiny new Gixxer to learn that getting your knee down on the open road is the mark of an idiot, or for the bad ass hard core biker to learn that getting pissed and riding is stupid, we'll be waiting forever. And we can't expect the noob on the GN to master counter steering, or the born again on his Harley to learn road positioning and how to read traffic because skill takes time and/or training.

If we wait for every biker to get his act together we'll be riding flying bikes and taking holidays on the moon before that happens, and in the meantime too many of us will be taken out through inadequate skill by other road users. As the stakeholders with the most to gain from a universal improvement in road skills and driver attitude, we need to get involved in pushing for change now, and demanding change in rider and driver skill concurrently. Instead of saying "we've all lifted our game, now we want everyone else to do the same" we need to say "there are too many idiots and incompetents on the road on bikes and in cars, we want to see that change. Now".

If we make it a universal demand for a change in driving skill and attitude we may just get car drivers, the AA, truck drivers and even cops on our side. It's recognising that we're not the whole problem, we're part of the problem, and if we're going to do something we might as well address the whole problem.

I see what you are saying, and I agree, however I can also see what the cagers will say when bikers tell them to sharpen up, "why, you guys are killing yourselves in far greater numbers than we are"

The angle of cager vs biker accidents is always going to fail imo, as bikers are always going to be killed in greater numbers. However group them together and target innatentive motorists of all types and we might get somewhere.

[shrub]

I see what you are saying, and I agree, however I can also see what the cagers will say when bikers tell them to sharpen up, "why, you guys are killing yourselves in far greater numbers than we are"

The angle of cager vs biker accidents is always going to fail imo, as bikers are always going to be killed in greater numbers. However group them together and target innatentive motorists of all types and we might get somewhere.

I think car drivers will be happier if we say "we want to see the road toll down and think we should all do our bit".

I think targetting inattention would produce great results

[caseye]

shrub, Kat you guys are closer than you think, only thing missing here is agreement from either of you that the way forward is for bikers to stand up and say" yep we screw up alot" then and only then, the car drivers will acknowledge their own deficencies and allow that together, car, bike, truck , bus etc drivers can do something about making thier own driving habits safer for all others out there.
Shit I hate having my bike in pieces.Still, won't belong now. Look forward to riding south and cathcing up again Katman.

[shrub]

shrub, Kat you guys are closer than you think, only thing missing here is agreement from either of you that the way forward is for bikers to stand up and say" yep we screw up alot" then and only then, the car drivers will acknowledge their own deficencies and allow that together, car, bike, truck , bus etc drivers can do something about making thier own driving habits safer for all others out there.
Shit I hate having my bike in pieces.Still, won't belong now. Look forward to riding south and cathcing up again Katman.

Where I'm coming from is that most road users need to lift their game (I certainly do), and as motorcyclists we have a greater stake in seeing road user behaviour improve than car and truck drivers because what is a minor fender bender in a car is a hospital visit (or worse) to us. That means we need to take a position of leadership and start pushing for Our Masters to lift their game and stop obsessing about speed at the expense of all other behaviour. We need to see a push for awareness of other road users, campaigning against driver inattention and a change to the licensing regime.

I disagree with Katman that we need to sit around and wait for motorcyclists to get their act together because if we do that we'll be waiting forever.

[dipshit]

I disagree with Katman that we need to sit around and wait for motorcyclists to get their act together because if we do that we'll be waiting forever.

So 75 to 80% of motorcycle fatalities are the fault of the motorcyclist so we need better training for car drivers...???

[Katman]

I disagree with Katman that we need to sit around and wait for motorcyclists to get their act together because if we do that we'll be waiting forever.

Since the word go your argument has been based around your belief that motorcycling's statistics aren't as bad as we're being lead to believe. Even when a crash scene investigator (who is also a motorcyclist) shows that they are damn near spot on you still refuse to acknowledge the extent of our problem.

It's that sort of ostrich-like behaviour that makes a laughing stock of us.

[shrub]

Since the word go your argument has been based around your belief that motorcycling's statistics aren't as bad as we're being lead to believe. Even when a crash scene investigator (who is also a motorcyclist) shows that they are damn near spot on you still refuse to acknowledge the extent of our problem.

It's that sort of ostrich-like behaviour that makes a laughing stock of us.

I agree that motorcyclists seem to be at fault in the majority of crashes - I assumed about 60% of crashes, it seems it's closer to 75%, but my argument is, and always has been, that while we definitely need to improve the way we ride, it's a joint responsibility. If the figures were 95%, then I'd be happy to say that other road users don't have a part to play, but I believe they do. You may be happy to bend over and say "sorry, other road users don't need to change a thing they do, we're the problem", but I don't.

It is my experience, based on riding bikes and driving cars that a huge proportion of car drivers lack the skills they need and/or have appalling attitudes, therefore it is my belief that all road users need to lift their game.

If you disagree, then you're either not using the same roads as me, or you're so bound up in your anti-motorcyclist view that you can't see what's in front of you and it's you that's playing ostrich.

[MSTRS]

I agree that motorcyclists seem to be at fault in the majority of crashes -


True. But do note that the % varies, depending whether the crash was injury or death. It seems that, as the severity of injury increases, the higher the likelihood of the rider being the one at fault. That is definitely where we need to start.

[shrub]

True. But do note that the % varies, depending whether the crash was injury or death. It seems that, as the severity of injury increases, the higher the likelihood of the rider being the one at fault. That is definitely where we need to start.

That's an interesting observation. You're right, the stats for crashes and fatalities are significantly different, and unfortunately focussing on fatalities feeds the ant-motorcycle lobby. There's also the issue that any crash is a problem because the overwhelming majority of crashes result in injury and damage to the motorcycle, so we can't ignore non-fatal crashes.

[bogan]

another factor is the cost vs return of any training or legislation scheme. Proportions of bikers/cagers that need the training, effectiveness of training. Which is a lot harder to get stats on.

If you are trying to convince tptb to train cagers, saying it could save 10 bikers a year sounds shit compared to saying it could save 200 motorists per year. If you want to train cagers it shouldn't be about bikers.

[dipshit]

It is my experience, based on riding bikes and driving cars that a huge proportion of car drivers lack the skills they need and/or have appalling attitudes, therefore it is my belief that all road users need to lift their game.

Your experience and opinion means jack-shit compared to the NZ road statistics. This isn't about you or any one individual.

[Katman]

If you disagree, then you're either not using the same roads as me, or you're so bound up in your anti-motorcyclist view that you can't see what's in front of you and it's you that's playing ostrich.

You know shrub, sometimes you let your argument slip to the piss-weak level that Ixion was often guilty of.

The truth is, I have no "splenetic hatred of motorcyclists" - I'm just being brutally honest.

[mashman]

Your experience and opinion means jack-shit compared to the NZ road statistics. This isn't about you or any one individual.

I beg to differ... it's about EVERY individual taking responsibility for their actions on the road, at work (ACC discount :shifty:), at home etc... education and not legislation will yield better results imho... Just ask Katman :). Statistics can be shown to prove anything, or disprove anything for that matter :)

[dipshit]

I beg to differ... it's about EVERY individual taking responsibility for their actions on the road, at work (ACC discount :shifty:), at home etc... education and not legislation will yield better results imho... Just ask Katman :). Statistics can be shown to prove anything, or disprove anything for that matter :)

I mean the government isn't going to ask shrub what he thinks and for his opinion. They are going to look at NZLT numbers and figures.

[mashman]

I mean the government isn't going to ask shrub what he thinks and for his opinion. They are going to look at NZLT numbers and figures.

fair enough... but until BRONZ have been told to sod off and it's public knowledge, i'll still hold out a little hope that sense will prevail and that BRONZ will add a touch of "real life" in terms of the direction of "motoring"

As far as i'm concerened, shrub is spot on too. We know there were 33 rider fault crashes, but, even if only a quarter of those were fatal, are the statistics for those crashes going to be accurate? I doubt it (even Berries has his suspicions), ESPECIALLY if it's a multi and there's a dead biker that can't speak for himself :yes: (you survive, are you going to accept a charge of murder if the "victim" is dead? I bet not)... perhaps i'm wrong and am more than happy to take the dressing down for my opinions...

EVERY road user needs to up their game, not just US.

[Bald Eagle]

Road injuries and deaths involve and affect everybody. A bit like elephant consumption we need to take small bites in lots of places on the beast.

Rider / driver education, road engineering, public awareness, legislative reviews all come into the mix.

A smaller than intended levy increase, a dedicated and protected Motorcycle Safety funding pool are steps in the right direction and a lot of people are very active in addressing issues and evolving processes going forward.

It is now time to work together with the powers that be to improve relationships, perceptions and behaviors. If we are not part of and engaged in solutions then we remain part of the problem.

[R-Soul]

I agree that motorcyclists seem to be at fault in the majority of crashes - I assumed about 60% of crashes, it seems it's closer to 75%, but my argument is, and always has been, that while we definitely need to improve the way we ride, it's a joint responsibility. If the figures were 95%, then I'd be happy to say that other road users don't have a part to play, but I believe they do. You may be happy to bend over and say "sorry, other road users don't need to change a thing they do, we're the problem", but I don't.

It is my experience, based on riding bikes and driving cars that a huge proportion of car drivers lack the skills they need and/or have appalling attitudes, therefore it is my belief that all road users need to lift their game.

If you disagree, then you're either not using the same roads as me, or you're so bound up in your anti-motorcyclist view that you can't see what's in front of you and it's you that's playing ostrich.

Yes of course greater levels of attention all round would be marvellous. BUT: surely it makes the most sense to focus on what can be changed most readily and easily. You will NEVER erase all inattention in car drivers OR bike riders. Thats human nature. We are inattentive. We can make people aware of teh dire consequences of inattention, yes. We already do in failry striking Tv ads etc. but it will take 95% effort to get rid of the last 5% of teh problem.

CLEARLY from what Berries has said, the main problem seems to be that riders just dont know how to handle their bikes. Riders going off road, losing control of their bikes, in the dry, not even speeding. Clear as daylight, too many of us just dont know how to ride. but we do anyhow.

It makes us seem dumb as hell, and just maybe we ARE. But now we are on the way to recognising what the problem IS, we can finally find ways to solve it. Obviously the solution is ensuring that ALL riders know how to control their bike. And control it WELL.

I propose a two pronged attack.

New riders: Will need to go on an INTENSIVE riding course on both road and track to get them fully acquainted with their bikes abilities and efficient control thereof, as well as road hazards. Germany has one of the lowest accident rates in the world, despite having speed unlimited Autobahns. Why? Because they have the most intensive driver training courses. Why are we even hesitating about this aspect?

Older riders: Insist on regular attendance at Advanced rider training days on tracks, and/or make attendance at track days subsidised and more readily affordable. I propose this for two reasons: Firstly, this will enable riders to learn better control of their bikes, and their bikes abilities (and will teach old riders coming back into riding to remember their control again quickly) to prevent freeze ups and panic reactions.

Secondly, just having spent time on track has made me more docile on the road. Whereas before I was always looking for an opportunity gap to "see what this thing can do", I have now seen what it can do, and I know that if I am anywhere close to what it can do on the road, I will be in mortal danger. So I dont even bother.

So, in summary, its secondly to get your monthly/quarterly fix of adrenalin in enough quantities that you dont go looking for it on the road.

[mashman]

Yes of course greater levels of attention all round would be marvellous. BUT: surely it makes the most sense to focus on what can be changed most readily and easily.


Which is what exactly? After all, you're only changing the attitude/perception of 2% of the road going fleet... Money well spent WTF!!! I call bullshit argument, nay, I shall Katman yaw ass Mr Ostrich :)... Do everyone or don't bother.



So, in summary, its secondly to get your monthly/quarterly fix of adrenalin in enough quantities that you dont go looking for it on the road.

Because we always go out with the intention of using the road as a racetrack :blink:... that's a HUGE assumption... SOME decide to twist the throttle on a whim (a controlled whim)! I guarantee that that is a FACT! some don't. Riders choice :) :rofl:@Adrenalin... i can get adrenalin at home when releasing a warm fart :)

[Katman]

Which is what exactly? After all, you're only changing the attitude/perception of 2% of the road going fleet... Money well spent WTF!!!

When it's purpose is to protect the future of motorcycling, fuckin oath it's money well spent.

[shrub]

EVERY road user needs to up their game, not just US.

Exactly, and katman deciding that until all motorcyclists have got their act together we have no right to demand a change from anyone else is silly. Does that mean until every noob on a GN250 has mastered riding to the point where they're unlikely to crash? Or until every idiot power ranger pulls his head in?

It ain't gonna happen, so let's stop pissing around and work with BRONZ and with people like Charley Lamb to push for a more global approach to road safety. I am happy to re-test every 10 years, keep a log book, undergo training etc, but I want Mary Pajero to do the same. Not just because she might take me out on the T Bird, but because she might take my partner out in her Mitsubishi thing or take me out while I'm on my treadly.

If motorcyclists were the only people who needed to lift their game, I'd agree with katman, but they're not.

[Katman]

Exactly, and katman deciding that until all motorcyclists have got their act together we have no right to demand a change from anyone else is silly.

Get it through your thick skull - we have no bargaining power.

[mashman]

When it's purpose is to protect the future of motorcycling, fuckin oath it's money well spent.

I didn't think you were one for conspiracy theories KM... and if the future is set towards the removal of motorcycles from the road by 2050, then we can have ZERO accidents, let alone deaths, between now and then and still end up with the same result, the removal of motorcycles... Can't wait til they try legislating bikes off the road... that'll be an interesting stand off at the beehive.

[shrub]

Get it through your thick skull - we have no bargaining power.

No, you have no bargaining power. The motorcycle community has plenty.

[MSTRS]

I'm not sure what is so difficult to understand - people in glass houses are in no position to throw stones.


I'm sure that's what you meant to say...

[Katman]

No, you have no bargaining power. The motorcycle community has plenty.

Don't make the mistake of seeing the Accident Prevention Group that the ACC has set up as any indication of bargaining power.

We'd be well advised to see it simply as a lifeline that we've been thrown. If we start puffing our chests out and demanding anything, we could find that it's just as easily snatched back out of our grasp.

[shrub]

Don't make the mistake of seeing the Accident Prevention Group that the ACC has set up as any indication of bargaining power.

We'd be well advised to see it simply as a lifeline that we've been thrown. If we start puffing our chests out and demanding anything, we could find that it's just as easily snatched back out of our grasp.

You don't get it, do you?

Do you seriously believe that if we rock up and say "motorcycle license testing is inadequate and driver inattention is a majpr problem" TPTB will say "we won't listen to your concerns about road safety because Johnny Powerranger is an idiot and Nigel Noob can't ride".

get off your bandwagon and look at the bigger picture.

[mashman]

We'd be well advised to see it simply as a lifeline that we've been thrown. If we start puffing our chests out and demanding anything, we could find that it's just as easily snatched back out of our grasp.

but there's always the chance, if motorcycling is threatened, to DEMAND EVERYTHING, not just anything... and I don't see a "ban" on motorcycling turning out well and ending at the steps...

[Katman]

get off your bandwagon and look at the bigger picture.

This is like talking to a retarded child.

Read my fucking lips.......

Nobody is saying that there is not room for improvement right across the road user spectrum, but to take the attitude that "we don't have to make any improvement till everyone else does" will see us treated as nothing more than a pouting spoilt child.

[shrub]

This is like talking to a retarded child

That's why I'm not wasting any more time on you. Goodbye.

[mashman]

This is like talking to a retarded child.

Read my fucking lips.......


it's a computer screen dude :shifty:...



Nobody is saying that there is not room for improvement right across the road user spectrum, but to take the attitude that "we don't have to make any improvement till everyone else does" will see us treated as nothing more than a pouting spoilt child.

It's a shame you see it that way. I don't believe that that is what shrub was posting (I may be wrong), or at least my understanding was, why target the smallest group of (taxable) road users, when road users as a group are the problem... You're as bad as the ACC for your short sightedness... we can only ever acknowledge our own shortcomings, noone elses... everyone else needs to be educated to your level :) (involuntary shiver)...

And if you think shrub is difficult to deal with, you're going to get one hell of a rude awakening should you actually get off your arse and start your campaign... you'll have to deal with people who are out of touch with THE reality of using the road (they get chauffeured)... bon chance Mr Magoo

[Katman]

you'll have to deal with people who are out of touch with THE reality of using the road

Don't worry, this place has given me plenty of practice.

[dipshit]

you'll have to deal with people who are out of touch with THE reality of using the road

shrub... ( http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/126356-The-AA-are-lying-about-us ) BRONZ, Prof Lamb, these guys... ( http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/78163/cars-cause-most-crashes-rider ) ... ( http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/wanaka/78575/anger-motorcycle-club ) ... are the ones out of touch.

[R-Soul]

Which is what exactly? After all, you're only changing the attitude/perception of 2% of the road going fleet... Money well spent WTF!!! I call bullshit argument, nay, I shall Katman yaw ass Mr Ostrich :)... Do everyone or don't bother.


2% if the roadgoing fleet on which you pay 80% of the ACC costs, remember... money very well spent by government then...

[R-Soul]

I didn't think you were one for conspiracy theories KM... and if the future is set towards the removal of motorcycles from the road by 2050, then we can have ZERO accidents, let alone deaths, between now and then and still end up with the same result, the removal of motorcycles... Can't wait til they try legislating bikes off the road... that'll be an interesting stand off at the beehive.

What the fuck do you think they just did with their first tranche of ACC levy rises?
Of course they wont do it in one swoop. But those costs will rise uyearly until the amount payable by ACC for bike costs is negligible, because the number of bikes are negligible...

[R-Soul]

You don't get it, do you?

Do you seriously believe that if we rock up and say "motorcycle license testing is inadequate and driver inattention is a majpr problem" TPTB will say "we won't listen to your concerns about road safety because Johnny Powerranger is an idiot and Nigel Noob can't ride".

get off your bandwagon and look at the bigger picture.

I believe that if we DONT rock up and say "this is how we can cut accidents in half/quarter by doing XXX" the man will say "have another ACC levy increase until we are not making a loss on you hot head/stupid/unprotected MINORITY bike types".

If we go to them and say "in order to get bike accidents down, we will require a restructuiring of the entire univers of road vehicle licensing" they will say "have some more ACC levies".

If we go to them and say, give us a chance to show that these are the problems, and that we can cut the ACc costs by some shrewd bike training (because after all, we are our own worst enemy), they might be more inclined to give it a chance. They might still even turn around and go, "nah, you guys are too dumb, and have been for too long - we dont think it will make a difference, so have some more levys..."

If we dont show some really logical, constructive way of preventing them from having to pay for the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, we can expect more levies. And it will need to be almost completely self driven by us, because you can COUNT on a politiican to NOT get off their ass and NOT make things happen. The path of least resistance is a way of life for them.

In fact I am surprised that CSS has not drawn a up business plan and gone to the transport minister and promises that if he signs on the dotted line, the ACC costs will fall. They take a big chunk of the $23m slush fund, and they do everything. And the license regs are changed so that attendance at CSS for your basic skills handling course is compulsory, and full license holders take refresher courses every two/three years.

If it fails- we are still the idots that keep riding like maniacs. If it works, the minister smells like roses.

[shrub]

I believe if we breeze up the Our Masters and say "motorcycle crashes are too high, and there are what we believe are the causes based on the following research. We want to do something about it, so we would like to propose that we work with you to develop a strategy to achieve that, and we want to work with every other road user including cars" we would be listened to and might actually see some good done.

And that's where people like Charley Lamb and organisations like BRONZ have a role.

[mashman]

What the fuck do you think they just did with their first tranche of ACC levy rises?
Of course they wont do it in one swoop. But those costs will rise uyearly until the amount payable by ACC for bike costs is negligible, because the number of bikes are negligible...

A year is a long time. Lots can happen in a year.

[Katman]

I believe if we breeze up the Our Masters and say "motorcycle crashes are too high, and there are what we believe are the causes based on the following research. We want to do something about it, so we would like to propose that we work with you to develop a strategy to achieve that, and we want to work with every other road user including cars" we would be listened to and might actually see some good done.

And that's where people like Charley Lamb and organisations like BRONZ have a role.

We need to concentrate on cleaning up our own back yard.

Leave the car drivers to TPTB to deal with.

I guarantee if we said "we aim to reduce motorcycle accidents by at least 50%" and then delivered, we would be seen in an entirely different light.

[mashman]

shrub... ( http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/126356-The-AA-are-lying-about-us ) BRONZ, Prof Lamb, these guys... ( http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/78163/cars-cause-most-crashes-rider ) ... ( http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/wanaka/78575/anger-motorcycle-club ) ... are the ones out of touch.

I sort of know one of those people :). And from what I can tell, he's no wallpainting, but he does like his riding...

[R-Soul]

I believe if we breeze up the Our Masters and say "motorcycle crashes are too high, and there are what we believe are the causes based on the following research. We want to do something about it, so we would like to propose that we work with you to develop a strategy to achieve that, and we want to work with every other road user including cars" we would be listened to and might actually see some good done.

And that's where people like Charley Lamb and organisations like BRONZ have a role.

I am not saying that what you are suggesting is not right. Hell yes, there should be better driving all round. What I am saying is that political effects will overcome practical and useful discussion and advancement.

If I was the government I would say "alright, lets give it a go, but show us that it sworks fiorst by fixing up your own (most expensive) house first". If the scheme ios a success, and ends up saving them money, you can bet they will extend it to cagers (once they have good justification for it). But they wont risk their political careers pissing off the general population of car drivers with more intensive licensing requirements on an unproven scheme because "the bikers say so". Forget that.

[R-Soul]

A year is a long time. Lots can happen in a year.

The most likely thing that will happen is that every one (including ourselves) will get bored with it, forget about us poor bikers, lose interest in our cause, and set us up for the second tranche of increases. Tell me it aint so.

[R-Soul]

Poiticians follow the path of least resistance, like teh spineless proicks they are. (Really- who goes into politics if not for personal gain or a thirst for power, or because its a sure way of staying in a job? No real will to do better by the people there...).

Understand this: Its VERY easy for them to just raise levies. One phone call, amending one line of legislation. Its clearly the path of least resistance. Especially when it is against a political minority.

The $23m safety fund is merely a tip of the hat to allay public concerns that not enough is being done to prevent accidents. i would not be surprised at all if they actually had no political will to do much with it. Call me cynical.

The only way to get them doing stuff for us instead of against us, is by HANDING IT TO THEM ON A PLATE. And showing them that they will come out looking like roses, with a better bottom line.

We need to show them a better path of even less reistsance. It must be obvious to even them that it will have more benefits to them for the same amount of work. The plan must basically be drawn up for them from scratch, and work on almost no money.

Politiicans being politiicans, they willprbably not even be willing to consider an alternative, just because it involves more organisation.

[shrub]

I am not saying that what you are suggesting is not right. Hell yes, there should be better driving all round. What I am saying is that political effects will overcome practical and useful discussion and advancement.

If I was the government I would say "alright, lets give it a go, but show us that it sworks fiorst by fixing up your own (most expensive) house first". If the scheme ios a success, and ends up saving them money, you can bet they will extend it to cagers (once they have good justification for it). But they wont risk their political careers pissing off the general population of car drivers with more intensive licensing requirements on an unproven scheme because "the bikers say so". Forget that.

So how do we fix our house? Post more threads on KB? Do courses? Ride slower? Wear better gear? Ban learner riders? Put trainer wheels on our bikes and get a man to walk in front holding a red flag?


There seems to be a school of thought that until we have slashed the crash rate we have no right to demand that our safety be taken into account. Unfortunately there is no silver bullet that will result in a sudden (or even rapid) drop in motorcycle crashes because if most of us immediately slowed down, did every course we could and wore the best gear on the planet, there would still be learners who don't know about target fixation riding into potholes, born agains underestimating their (and their bike's) limitations and idiots mistaking the Akaroa road for Ruapuna; and they're the ones having most of the crashes. Some people won't be told and some people don't know they need to be told.

But what about the rest of us? What about those of us that ride carefully, do courses, wear good gear etc? Do we have no right to demand that car drivers learn to see us, that roading engineers design roads that aren't dangerous and that people learn to indicate? Should we sit on our arses and whine, or should we get behind BRONZ and people like Charley Lamb who are working hard to make a difference? Should we sit back and wait for bikers to stop doing dumb shit, or should we start campaigning for change?

And when I talk about change, I am talking about road safety campaigns that are about motorcycle safety that target every road user, including motorcyclists. I'm talking about strategies that actually deal with the issues that result in motorcycle crashes. All of the issues.

[mashman]

The most likely thing that will happen is that every one (including ourselves) will get bored with it, forget about us poor bikers, lose interest in our cause, and set us up for the second tranche of increases. Tell me it aint so.

It may well be so. BUT, if that is the case and they go through another round of motorcycle levy increases... I can see a HUGE backlash against ACC, primarily because they're offering businesses a 50% discount... that alone goes against the principles of ACC, and I won't pay higher levies so that business can get yet another fucking discount that I have to subsidise... I subsidise them enoiugh as it is :)

[Katman]

So how do we fix our house?

For a start, we could take a different attitude towards accidents. If the 'Oh dear, crashed my bike, yay time to go shopping' threads are anything to go by, there are far too many that look upon accidents too lightly.

Even the 'Biker Down/RIP' threads show we're all too quick to pour out sympathy regardless of whether it's deserved.

[mashman]

For a start, we could take a different attitude towards accidents. If the 'Oh dear, crashed my bike, yay time to go shopping' threads are anything to go by, there are far too many that look upon accidents too lightly.

Even the 'Biker Down/RIP' threads show we're all too quick to pour out sympathy regardless of whether it's deserved.

"If you drink and drive you're a bloody criminal"... i see that on TV and laugh myself silly...

Yeah, because telling people, that already know that they fucked, up is really gonna accomplish your goal WTF!!! RIP's are a sign of respect, even if the death was the riders own fault. Grow a heart Tin Man.

[Katman]

Grow a heart Tin Man.

Grow a brain Scarecrow.

[warewolf]

Nobody is saying that there is not room for improvement right across the road user spectrum, but to take the attitude that "we don't have to make any improvement till everyone else does" will see us treated as nothing more than a pouting spoilt child.Comprehension epic fail...

[mashman]

Grow a brain Scarecrow.

yer ruby slippers ain't gonna work on this issue Dotty :)

[shrub]

Comprehension epic fail...

That's our katman...

[That looks like fun]

Breath in :mellow: breath out :mellow:.................... Now repeat :yes:
Calm :love:
A lot of pages ago I asked the question "what do we do now"?
Amongst the angst and derision a common thread is something needs to be done :yes:
When the laws are made believe it or not they are not deliberately thought out to piss off as many people as they can. They are all there for a purpose (even the ones I think are stupid).
To get people to obey the laws is the trick. As I see it the problem is an attitude versus behavior issue.
If my Attitude is influenced by something (lets say advertising) I will change my behavior:innocent:
If my attitude is not changed and I do not comply with the laws :shifty: the current system focuses on changing the behavior (the beatings will continue until the lesson is learned) :angry:
I see the ACC increase as a beating for us :shutup:
I agree we need to clean up our backyard, and perhaps the increase will motivate some to do that. Its also an opportunity for lobbying for better systems, be that training licensing or some better miracle. Will abusing each other on an Internet forum site fix the world :blink:
Final question, Why cant we expect the same of other motorist's

[Katman]

Final question, Why cant we expect the same of other motorist's

We might well have the right to expect it but until we start sorting our own shit out we're on shakey ground if we start demanding it.

[Bald Eagle]

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<o></o>
BRONZ Wellington formed from the BIKEOI.
It was established with support from BRONZ Auckland (Thanks Auck’s!)
What it stood for as a regional branch, how it was to be organized, and a focus on political activity drove the opening of the Wellington Branch.
<o></o>
Our President Brent Hutchison, our VP Paul Ellen, and Byron Cummins the Treasurer were selected in a meeting at the Backbencher opposite Parliament on Nov 17, 2009 twenty minutes after the great chant of BULLSHIT was delivered to Nick Smith. What a great day that was.
<o></o>
Since Wellington has opened, we have achieved to get a representative on the MSL Establishment Group (ACC Motorcycle Safety Levy) assisting with managing the ring fenced funds from our levy contribution.
<o></o>
Now our active branch (all 42 of us!) has planned a National Conference, (this is huge news and all BRONZ members will know more soon via e-news etc) and we established a charity to support, namely SPCA, and are planning two major events simultaneously in November.
<o></o>
Event one will be on the 13^th November as a charity ride to raise funds for SPCA, and public awareness of BRONZ.
<o></o>
We intend to follow this with an overnight Biker Rally as event two (location to be set) as a commemoration of BIKEOI. The 13^th is the date closest to the 17^th we can get on a weekend.
You know the drill, crap amateur bands, burnt sausages, tents, beer, bourbon and a recruitment drive WOOHOO!
We will have a location secured sometime in the near future and it will be well publicized. All welcome, any bike style, bring the rug rats, have a ball and support BRONZ.
<o></o>
Our President is going to ask the other branches to simultaneously run some kind of event ride or rally in their home regions to also commemorate BIKEOI on this date so we hope it comes off as a national commemoration of BIKEOI.
<o></o>
Ok, why is there a BRONZ at all?
Recently a member of one region complained “BRONZ did NOTHING for me…. I want a refund’
Well. If that person owns a bike of over 601 cc’s, BRONZ directly assisted in saving you, and them, and all other bike owners 360$ worth of Levy increase. A good return on 20$ and a 10$ badge fee I would think.
Remember the BIKEOI, I hope you do because BRONZ Auckland (Les Mason) had the idea, and our Wellington Branch opened as a result.
And let’s not forget to credit Ulysses with assuring that SOME of that rort was ring fenced for US to spend on safety programs for ourselves!!!!!!!!
<o></o>
Details here:
http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/overview-of-acc/how-were-funded/WPC086434
<o></o>
<o></o>
So anyway there it is for all you Kiwibiker’s, an update on progress from BRONZ Wellington and an outline of our basic plans for the coming 6 months.
Email info@bronzwellington.org.nz for more details, or go to our new (and still being tweaked sorry) website www.bronzwellington.org.nz (http://www.bronzwellington.org.nz/)
<o></o>
BRONZ Wellington Branch Committee
<o></o>
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[NONONO]

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<o></o>
BRONZ Wellington formed from the BIKEOI.
It was established with support from BRONZ Auckland (Thanks Auck’s!)
What it stood for as a regional branch, how it was to be organized, and a focus on political activity drove the opening of the Wellington Branch.
<o></o>
Our President Brent Hutchison, our VP Paul Ellen, and Byron Cummins the Treasurer were selected in a meeting at the Backbencher opposite Parliament on Nov 17, 2009 twenty minutes after the great chant of BULLSHIT was delivered to Nick Smith. What a great day that was.
<o></o>
Since Wellington has opened, we have achieved to get a representative on the MSL Establishment Group (ACC Motorcycle Safety Levy) assisting with managing the ring fenced funds from our levy contribution.
<o></o>
Now our active branch (all 42 of us!) has planned a National Conference, (this is huge news and all BRONZ members will know more soon via e-news etc) and we established a charity to support, namely SPCA, and are planning two major events simultaneously in November.
<o></o>
Event one will be on the 13^th November as a charity ride to raise funds for SPCA, and public awareness of BRONZ.
<o></o>
We intend to follow this with an overnight Biker Rally as event two (location to be set) as a commemoration of BIKEOI. The 13^th is the date closest to the 17^th we can get on a weekend.
You know the drill, crap amateur bands, burnt sausages, tents, beer, bourbon and a recruitment drive WOOHOO!
We will have a location secured sometime in the near future and it will be well publicized. All welcome, any bike style, bring the rug rats, have a ball and support BRONZ.
<o></o>
Our President is going to ask the other branches to simultaneously run some kind of event ride or rally in their home regions to also commemorate BIKEOI on this date so we hope it comes off as a national commemoration of BIKEOI.
<o></o>
Ok, why is there a BRONZ at all?
Recently a member of one region complained “BRONZ did NOTHING for me…. I want a refund’
Well. If that person owns a bike of over 601 cc’s, BRONZ directly assisted in saving you, and them, and all other bike owners 360$ worth of Levy increase. A good return on 20$ and a 10$ badge fee I would think.
Remember the BIKEOI, I hope you do because BRONZ Auckland (Les Mason) had the idea, and our Wellington Branch opened as a result.
And let’s not forget to credit Ulysses with assuring that SOME of that rort was ring fenced for US to spend on safety programs for ourselves!!!!!!!!
<o></o>
Details here:
http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/overview-of-acc/how-were-funded/WPC086434
<o></o>
<o></o>
So anyway there it is for all you Kiwibiker’s, an update on progress from BRONZ Wellington and an outline of our basic plans for the coming 6 months.
Email info@bronzwellington.org.nz for more details, or go to our new (and still being tweaked sorry) website www.bronzwellington.org.nz (http://www.bronzwellington.org.nz/)
<o></o>
BRONZ Wellington Branch Committee
<o></o>
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Now hang on a cotton pickin minute there muskrat..
I was at that first meeting, and while I've got no beef with Les or BRONZ, I'm not sure even they would take the credit for Bikoi. It was something that a lot of people had a hand in, and, unfortunately, it was an opportunity missed.
When Les came out directly after the new levies were announced and said, we don't like it but we can live with it, we lost all the momentum we had raised from Bikoi.
I remember taking the yellow armband off my rear view mirror and putting it in the bin, I remember feeling bloody betrayed after feeling we had achieved something going to Welly.
I have no faith anymore in any negotiating stance with ACC or this tax by stealth government, nor do I believe that I need to clean up my own back yard.
I'm a biker, still pissed off.
Watch this space, I suspect and hope that some are moving this beyond BRONZ. And about time too.

[shrub]

Good work, and hats off to BRONZ for doing while everyone else was talking.

I have just printed off the application form and will join next week. Pity you don't have a branch here.

[Berries]

Well. If that person owns a bike of over 601 cc’s, BRONZ directly assisted in saving you, and them, and all other bike owners 360$ worth of Levy increase. A good return on 20$ and a 10$ badge fee I would think.
Take all the credit why don't you. Are you saying that all the submissions that people put in were a waste of time and it was just the bikoi that reduced the levy ? What was that chant again ?

Three things stop me from joining BRONZ. One of them is this from the Dunedin protest ride -

Bronz Otago president Ron McKay said motorcyclists were a leisure group and should be classed as that - the same as boat users, jet-skiers and cyclists.
Sorry. But it is more than a leisure activity to me. If that is the way BRONZ see motorcycling then you won't be representing me.

Surprised I found the link but here it is - http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/dunedin/82142/rumbling-protest-against-acc-levies

[Bald Eagle]

Good work, and hats off to BRONZ for doing while everyone else was talking.

I have just printed off the application form and will join next week. Pity you don't have a branch here.

Contact info@bronzwellington.org.nz we will be happy to give you all the help we can to start BRONZ Christchurch.

[riffer]

Sorry. But it is more than a leisure activity to me. If that is the way BRONZ see motorcycling then you won't be representing me.

Don't let one quote colour your opinion of anything dude. Like any lobby group made of multiple organisations you're not always going to have everyone on the same page. Also, your quote is a small one with no context. I'd like to hear the rest of the conversation.

FWIW, BRONZ don't see motorcycling as a purely leisure activity. Personally, my bike is my daily transport, my ONLY transport unless I borrow my wife's car.

BRONZ is about representation and mediation with government authorities in order to have the bikers opinions known - hopefully we can represent in a way that works for everyone some of the time.

But don't expect us to agree with you all the time - that's just not realistic.

If you've got something to add, join up. Come to a meeting and have your say. Do something about it. We are.

[NONONO]

Don't let one quote colour your opinion of anything dude. Like any lobby group made of multiple organisations you're not always going to have everyone on the same page. Also, your quote is a small one with no context. I'd like to hear the rest of the conversation.

FWIW, BRONZ don't see motorcycling as a purely leisure activity. Personally, my bike is my daily transport, my ONLY transport unless I borrow my wife's car.

BRONZ is about representation and mediation with government authorities in order to have the bikers opinions known - hopefully we can represent in a way that works for everyone some of the time.

But don't expect us to agree with you all the time - that's just not realistic.

If you've got something to add, join up. Come to a meeting and have your say. Do something about it. We are.

Sorry mate, BRONZ represents no one but it's members.
At the last count that was a fairly small percentage of bikers, even bikers on this site.
if BRONZ wishes to represent more than it's current membership it has to obtain a mandate from those it wishes to represent. In Auckland it has a mandate to represent approx 200 people, no more. I have no current figures on how many people BRONZ represents nationally.
I'm not sure why BRONZ has become the sacred cow of bikers, given that it does not presume to represent bikers.
Think we can do without it personally, or maybe it should become affiliated to a biker organization..

[Berries]

Don't let one quote colour your opinion of anything dude. Like any lobby group made of multiple organisations you're not always going to have everyone on the same page. Also, your quote is a small one with no context. I'd like to hear the rest of the conversation.
The ODT misquoted me so many times over the years it became a bit of a game. However, if you are going to be representing a national body and you are speaking at a public event, or even directly to the media, then they are going to pick up and report those little soundbites. Not all publicity is good publicity. And seriously, for a lobby group everyone has to be on the same page don’t they ?

[riffer]

Not all publicity is good publicity. And seriously, for a lobby group everyone has to be on the same page don’t they ?

Yes, generally that is true. Doesn't always happen but when you are formulating policy on the hoof, like what happened when motorcyclists were attacked and given a matter of weeks to come up with a credible response you will get a number of (slightly) different opinions on these things.

Generally, most BRONZ organisations are in agreement all the time. If not, that's why National Council is there.


Sorry mate, BRONZ represents no one but it's members.
At the last count that was a fairly small percentage of bikers, even bikers on this site.
if BRONZ wishes to represent more than it's current membership it has to obtain a mandate from those it wishes to represent. In Auckland it has a mandate to represent approx 200 people, no more. I have no current figures on how many people BRONZ represents nationally.
I'm not sure why BRONZ has become the sacred cow of bikers, given that it does not presume to represent bikers.
Think we can do without it personally, or maybe it should become affiliated to a biker organization.

Sorry dude, BRONZ not only represents motorcycling, we advocate on behalf of motorcycists as well. Not sure where you came up with the not presuming to represent bikers. BRONZ are the longest-running motorcyclist representation organisation in New Zealand. When the government tried to screw it up 20 years ago it was BRONZ leading the charge. When they tried it again last year we were there again, at the front. There are other organisations representing bikers (WIMA, Ulysses, etc), and we work with all of them. They were delighted to join us in the bikoi, but make no mistake that was a BRONZ initiative.

But our main aim is political. We are, in a sense, affiliated with most biker organisations and that may or may not become more official in the future - who knows. Other organisations have different opinions on whether they become involved politically.

At the moment bikers need to think a lot more about how they are perceived, how they act, and how they communicate with TPTB, as they have the power (and they believe, the right) to protect us from ourselves if they think we can't do it ourselves.

BRONZ are working very hard right now to show Government and ACC how bikers are capable and committed to making a difference.

Your choice if you want to be involved - or not. I respect your choice either way, but I'll continue to fight for your right to keep riding even if you don't want me to.

Keep it shiny side up mate. :)

[That looks like fun]

We might well have the right to expect it but until we start sorting our own shit out we're on shakey ground if we start demanding it.

Then lets not demand it, lets just expect it :yes:

[NONONO]

Yes, generally that is true. Doesn't always happen but when you are formulating policy on the hoof, like what happened when motorcyclists were attacked and given a matter of weeks to come up with a credible response you will get a number of (slightly) different opinions on these things.

Generally, most BRONZ organisations are in agreement all the time. If not, that's why National Council is there.



Sorry dude, BRONZ not only represents motorcycling, we advocate on behalf of motorcycists as well. Not sure where you came up with the not presuming to represent bikers. BRONZ are the longest-running motorcyclist representation organisation in New Zealand. When the government tried to screw it up 20 years ago it was BRONZ leading the charge. When they tried it again last year we were there again, at the front. There are other organisations representing bikers (WIMA, Ulysses, etc), and we work with all of them. They were delighted to join us in the bikoi, but make no mistake that was a BRONZ initiative.

But our main aim is political. We are, in a sense, affiliated with most biker organisations and that may or may not become more official in the future - who knows. Other organisations have different opinions on whether they become involved politically.

At the moment bikers need to think a lot more about how they are perceived, how they act, and how they communicate with TPTB, as they have the power (and they believe, the right) to protect us from ourselves if they think we can't do it ourselves.

BRONZ are working very hard right now to show Government and ACC how bikers are capable and committed to making a difference.

Your choice if you want to be involved - or not. I respect your choice either way, but I'll continue to fight for your right to keep riding even if you don't want me to.

Keep it shiny side up mate. :)


BRONZ represents motorcyclists the way greenpeace represents whales. Motorcycling not motorcyclists.

242 is a good increase from 40 a year ago!.

BTW, it costs about $500 - $1000 a year to be on the BRONZ committee - stuff that you pay for , travel costs etc.

Anyone is welcome to start an alternative, y'know.

Erm???????

[NONONO]

Riffer
I genuinely respect what you are trying to do, and understand it's a thankless and difficult task, But...
You can't just go around representing people all over the place yknow.
Bronz's mandate comes only from it's membership and represents only it's members.
Running with your logic I declare that I represent pole dancers and will work tirelessly for them. I better go and have a chat with them and let them know.

[riffer]

Riffer
I genuinely respect what you are trying to do, and understand it's a thankless and difficult task, But...
You can't just go around representing people all over the place yknow.
Bronz's mandate comes only from it's membership and represents only it's members.
Running with your logic I declare that I represent pole dancers and will work tirelessly for them. I better go and have a chat with them and let them know.

Thanks mate. Pole dancers need recognition and representation.

And tips. ;)

[riffer]

Erm???????

Motorcycling, motorcyclists. Slight slip of the tongue. My apologies.

Still the same thing but, no matter how much you want to spin it.

I look forward to working with your alternative organisation.

Over and out.

[Fatt Max]

Thanks mate. Pole dancers need recognition and representation.

And tips. ;)

Yes,and when I do it I need a structural survey, building consent and leather pants....

[caseye]

Yes,and when I do it I need a structural survey, building consent and leather pants....

At the very Least I'da thought!! te he he.
Come on everyone, play nice, we do need one organisation that can and does speak for all those who want to do something about the Gubbermints atrocious treatment of us motorists.
Ora t the very leadt for those organisations that do represent to be able to talk civilly to one another.Perhaps even, Heaven Forbid co operate with each other.

[NONONO]

Yes,and when I do it I need a structural survey, building consent and leather pants....

Jeez...
With that image in my mind Ive got no chance of raising even a smile tonight. Will tell the wife the no show's down to you Max.Then again....
Sweatybikersinlederhoseinconsruction.com may just make some money.

[Berries]

So, rather than leave that image of a naked Fatt Max sliding down the lard encrusted pole outside the kebab shop are there any solutions ?

I don’t think there are. New riders applying for their Learner licence are the only group that can be targeted for improved education and training as they have to comply to get on the road legally. This should be a given. Most learners however don’t crash. They understand they are new and ride accordingly while picking up survival tips through experience.

Training of licenced riders is another issue. By all means offer up the opportunities, but what are the incentives for someone who doesn’t believe that they need that training ? Make it compulsory for all riders? Well, if it is free and fits in with my schedule then I might have a look, otherwise I’m not interested.

Then there is obviously a large group of riders sitting outside the law. Learners on big bikes, and those who just don’t have a bike licence at all. These people add to the stats in a big way but I think they need to be treated separately. It is a bit like recidivist drink driving. It isn’t a driving issue, it is an alcohol issue. In this case it is not a motorbike safety issue, it is an attitude issue, and those people are dragging us all down with them.

I do not believe it is within the power of the riding community to improve the crash stats. Most riders don’t crash. Most riders who do crash don’t intend to. Give them all the training in the world and they’ll still hit the car pulling out of the intersection, or just go slightly too fast in to the bend, or fail to see the brake lights in front. Or ride while munted. That’s because we are human.

The only way I see that the figures can be brought down is through insurance and getting rid of the ACC. Compulsory vehicle insurance with big penalties for not having it would go some way to putting people on bikes more appropriate to their experience. It could also be an incentive for doing advanced riding courses. And if personal medical insurance was compulsory then again, people may ride bikes a little differently, or at least be forced in to riding bikes a little more appropriate to their skill and experience level. Obviously that’s not going to happen with the sacred cow that is the ACC.

What will they do to us ? Well, they want to reduce the health costs of riding, not ban riding altogether so it will all be to do with trauma reduction. I am sure a compulsory standard of riding gear will be one of the things that comes first, thanks to the ATGATT fundamentalists. Then the fluoro vest. Then white helmets. A 90km/h national speed limit can’t be far away. Then pillions will be prohibited due to the level of their injuries. Then perhaps all riders will have to ride to the same conditions as a restricted licence holder. At some point the riding community will say enough is enough and then times will get interesting. We got nowhere near that point with the ACC levy increase.

Me, I’ll just look after myself, worry about friends and family and let the Darwin theory continue on its merry way. Keeps me in work after all.

[MSTRS]

I haven't said much in here, but have been following with interest. The points I get are...
No-one wants to be legislated.
Most of you have good ideas, but no-one wants the ideas 'the other bloke put forward'

FFS, we know how this will go, if we can't get on the same page...

LEGISLATION on gear and conditions.

If we absolutely refuse to countenance that, then we must agree on what we 'want' and how to achieve it. There is no middle ground. We are either the solution or the problem.

Education, using the ring-fenced ACC fund, is probably the only practical way to reach all and sundry.
Some safety ads, for sure.
Promotion of protective gear.
Rider training days, both theory and practical like RRRS do.
Perhaps the training days can be subsidised? Or attend, and pass a certain level of proficiency, gives you a discount on your rego/insurance or voucher for 'free' stuff at a bike shop?

Come on, we need ideas and agreement, not endless argument.

[mashman]

I still believe an Ad campaign is the way to go. One that informs people of the REAL dangers of the road. Not to shock and awe, but to educate road users in regards to the most likely "crashes", explain what to look out for and explain what the traffic could have done, if anything, to help "prevent" the accident. Do the top 10 accidents and see if it makes a difference?

[dipshit]

I still believe an Ad campaign is the way to go. One that informs people of the REAL dangers of the road.


That would be motorcyclists losing control and running off the road then.


215591


While 'intersections' make a big number too... motorcyclists were responsible for 25% of them so will leave 'motorcyclists losing control and running off the road' as the number one danger for any ad campaign to be aimed at.

[MSTRS]

Yes yes yes. We've heard that one. Some ads (if they happen) will be aimed at motorcyclists looking out for themselves.
Got anything useful that we haven't heard/seen before to contribute?

[Katman]

Here's an idea for an ad with an aim toward improving situational awareness.

Filmed from the motorcyclists perspective - long straight country road - sheep suddenly darts into path of motorcyclist from long grass on side of road. Film stops just before impact and rewinds - replay reveals moving grass on side of road a number of seconds before the sheep appears.

Similar ad could be done in an urban setting.

[Ocean1]

Me, I’ll just look after myself, worry about friends and family and let the Darwin theory continue on its merry way. Keeps me in work after all.

Salut.

A discrete modicum of coherence is SO refreshing.

[Ocean1]

Filmed from the motorcyclists perspective - long straight country road - Katman suddenly darts into path of motorcyclist from long grass on side of road. Film stops just before impact and rewinds - replay reveals moving grass on side of road a number of seconds before Katman appears.

You got the costume sorted dude?

[Katman]

You got the costume sorted dude?

Can we have the ad shot from onboard an XB12X please?

[That looks like fun]

We are either the solution or the problem.

Education, using the ring-fenced ACC fund, is probably the only practical way to reach all and sundry.
Some safety ads, for sure.
Promotion of protective gear.
Rider training days, both theory and practical like RRRS do.
Perhaps the training days can be subsidised? Or attend, and pass a certain level of proficiency, gives you a discount on your rego/insurance or voucher for 'free' stuff at a bike shop?

:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

Safety ads alone will not, never have never will "fix it". A multi pronged attack focusing on creating either the desire or will to change bad habits.
Money talks (if it didn't we would pay the increase and not complain), so offering monetary gains to show improvements (levels of training achieved etc) seems to me to be the simplest and most achievable option for bikers to pursue.
I believe BRONZ (love em or hate em at least they are trying) have already made noises in this area.
It is easy to feel angry and frustrated by the believe of powerlessness to our own destiny, however as the man said so well
We are either the solution or the problem :yes:

[R-Soul]

Training of licenced riders is another issue. By all means offer up the opportunities, but what are the incentives for someone who doesn’t believe that they need that training ? Make it compulsory for all riders? Well, if it is free and fits in with my schedule then I might have a look, otherwise I’m not interested.

.....

I do not believe it is within the power of the riding community to improve the crash stats. Most riders don’t crash. Most riders who do crash don’t intend to. Give them all the training in the world and they’ll still hit the car pulling out of the intersection, or just go slightly too fast in to the bend, or fail to see the brake lights in front. Or ride while munted. That’s because we are human.

The only way I see that the figures can be brought down is...

???What have you done with Berries?

YOU have just told us that the stats say that most of our accidents are bikers riding alone that just dont know how to control their own bikes. Now you turn around and say that it is not within our power to control our own destiny? Of course it is! By learning how to freaking ride properly- and taking the matter of skills development and saftey standards seriously. And not treating bikes as toys unless you are using them within proper play areas.

Perhaps I agree that we dont have the attitude within the riding communioty to enforce this on ourselves.

The stats show that our skills are seriously lacking on average. before anybody bleats about it, that reflects on ALL of us. Either for not haviong teh right attitude to tell our mates when to stop acting like assholes on the road, or for not being encouraging enough, or taking the tough line with people that dont take the time to get their skills up to speed. That includes criticising older riders that have come back, and are rusty, or never had tehinitial skills.

Of course, some people cannot afford all the courses, and this is where the government must come in - by making them freely available, and ENFORCING their usage. Because the government cannot discriminate between riders, such skills training courses would need to be enforced on EVERYBODY, and regular intervals. And the courses would also need to be frank and critical, and give honest feedback on that persons skills, so that they could have a realistic view of their abilities (I mean other wise we all feel that we could be the next Valentino right?) and be encouraged to do the next one, or redo the current one.

Now if they could be set at various levels choosable by the rider, and be enjoyable, I reckon not many people would mind upping their skills. I also reckon some riders who think that they have *great skills* may get a big surprise.

Better they get a surprise at a course, than in a corner that they have just lost traction on.

[MSTRS]

... that most of our accidents are bikers riding alone that just dont know how to control their own bikes. Now you turn around and say that it is not within our power to control our own destiny? ...

You are both saying the same thing. MOST don't crash. But those that do, for whatever reason (lack of skills or observation), tend to be the ones who are killed.
We can ALL improve, but there is no way that we will all stop crashing. The best we can hope for is a significant reduction in the number who do crash, esp through their own fault.

[That looks like fun]

[QUOTE=R-Soul;1129831818]???What have you done with Berries?
Of course, some people cannot afford all the courses, and this is where the government must come in - by making them freely available, and ENFORCING their usage. Because the government cannot discriminate between riders, such skills training courses would need to be enforced on EVERYBODY, and regular intervals. And the courses would also need to be frank and critical, and give honest feedback on that persons skills, so that they could have a realistic view of their abilities (I mean other wise we all feel that we could be the next Valentino right?) and be encouraged to do the next one, or redo the current one.

Now we are starting to get there :yes: Free, maybe. Available, definitely. Enforced :shutup: No way... incentives so people "want" to attend :yes:
Those who choose not to are not penalized, they are simply not rewarded

[Berries]

The stats show that our skills are seriously lacking on average. before anybody bleats about it, that reflects on ALL of us.
I'll bleat first then because I have to disagree with that. All the stats show are the lack of skills from the people involved in crashes, which is a minority of riders. It does not necessarily indicate a lack of skills across the board.

You are assuming that nobody can ride by saying training should be compulsory for everyone. That will probably be seen as a bit much by those people who have been riding for years, have done all the courses and have never had an off. I for one do not want to do a course. Oh I am sure we could all learn something, but to be made to go on a course because other people crash their bikes ? How’s that work then ? Maybe I should go on a fire safety course as well because a house down the street burnt down recently…….

How about improving or increasing the number of training courses and having a financial incentive to go on them – seeing as the end result should be a saving to the ACC. And if you have been charged in relation to a crash then there should be some compulsion to go on a course before you are allowed your licence back. Hard to enforce, but aim the training at the people who need it, not at everyone just because they ride a bike. Otherwise you will divide the biking community, if there is such a thing, which is the opposite of what is needed.


MOST don't crash. But those that do, for whatever reason (lack of skills or observation), tend to be the ones who are killed.
+1. Yet to see someone killed who wasn't in a crash.