The ACC saga - a new approach.

[Katman]

Ever felt like you were banging your head against a brick wall?

Perhaps it's time we stopped looking upon ACC as the enemy and started considering ways we could work with them instead.

Maybe it's time we accepted the levy increase that has been imposed upon us and now divert our energy towards insuring there are no further increases.

The only way we will achieve that is by dramatically reducing the number of motorcycle accidents.

[DEATH_INC.]

Nice Idea. But maybe the focus should be on reducing injuries first, be a bit easier to implement. How many of us have sucked up acc $$$$ by crashing without gear? (yes, I've done it) Seen lotsa scooter riders, and plenty of m/c riders too without anything but a helmet and f-all else. And then there's the off-road stuff to work on.... it all goes in the stats

BTW, it's not that bad (the acc levy thing), we are still way better off than aussie, my mate over there pays about a grand a year for rego. And I can still crash down the road and some guy (or Gal) in a big white van wil come and pick me up, and take me to the hospital where all the doctors and nurses will put me back together for free. It could be a lot worse.

[MSTRS]

Agreed, DeathInc.
Motorcycles are an inherently unstable machine, prone to many risks other than the rider, so asking for less crashes is a bit pie in the sky.
But gear....that's a different story. And one that will meet vehement opposition from all the It's My Right crowd. Strangely enough, not all of them are dickheads either...you'd think they could figure it out. Before legislation takes care of the problem.

[Katman]

so asking for less crashes is a bit pie in the sky.


Only to a defeatist.

The fact is that there are many ways we could reduce the number of motorcycle accidents.

More thorough basic training.
A change in attitude towards the way many of us use the road.
Improving situational awareness.
Accepting the fact that it's up to us to look out for our own safety because expecting others to do it for us will always end in tears.

I'm sure ACC would be prepared to help us try achieving all of those goals.

[onearmedbandit]

I think a lot of us have gone soft and become far too reliant on ACC.

If you fall off and graze your knee, go home and put a fucking plaster on it.

It doesn't need a team of medical specialists to administer sympathy.

True. When I had my accident in December I informed everyone there that I was fine, that I didn't require an ambulance (at the time I didn't know I had actually been thrown into a traffic pole and had broken my arm and shoulder) however a couple of people still rang through. When the ambo turned up I told them I was fine, but they still wanted to check me over. They were about to release me until they checked my heart rate and found that my heart beat was all over the show so they transported me.

One think (hey it's good enough for news readers!) that has changed now is I won't ride anywhere without full gear now. I was wearing my boots, glove, jacket (leather AStar) and helmet, and I suffered no abrasions on any of those areas. However as I was leaving work I only had my work pants on. It was a week before I could walk properly again from the damage to my knees.


[edit - I should point out that my heart was fine and that it was 10 days before the breaks were noticed. I really didn't need that ambulance]

[DEATH_INC.]

One other little sidenote, the rego on my 4WD is about $50 more than my bike.....and I don't think I've ever fallen off that.

[onearmedbandit]

Seriously, how do we go about reducing the number of accidents? Better rider training? That's pretty much the only thing I can think of, and unless the Govt makes it a part of the license requirements not many new (or old) riders will take it up. Maybe working with insurance companies to get rider courses recognised and offer a cheaper premium?

[Katman]

Seriously, how do we go about reducing the number of accidents? Better rider training? That's pretty much the only thing I can think of, and unless the Govt makes it a part of the license requirements not many new (or old) riders will take it up. Maybe working with insurance companies to get rider courses recognised and offer a cheaper premium?

I'm sure the powers that be would treat us a whole lot more seriously if we were seen to be pushing for a higher standard of basic motorcycle training and stricter licensing requirements.

[onearmedbandit]

I'm sure the powers that be would treat us a whole lot more seriously if we were seen to be pushing for a higher standard of basic motorcycle training and stricter licensing requirements.

Agreed. So how do you propose we acheive this. And I mean we. I don't think there would be any motorcyclist who wouldn't benefit from higher training, no matter their level of riding. So this is something that would not only benefit us in being better viewed by the PTB but also make us better, and therefore safer, riders, and in the long term we won't be paying through the nose so much. Are BRONZ doing anything as a national movement? Is anyone?

[MSTRS]

Defeatist? No - realist. I'm guessing you are talking about changing riders' attitudes? If they can't figure out the benefits of ATGATT, how do you propose changing their riding habits?

[onearmedbandit]

Defeatist? No - realist. I'm guessing you are talking about changing riders' attitudes? If they can't figure out the benefits of ATGATT, how do you propose changing their riding habits?

Which is why it's important to start with the basics. Ie proper riding gear and basic maintainance.

[Katman]

Agreed. So how do you propose we acheive this. And I mean we. I don't think there would be any motorcyclist who wouldn't benefit from higher training, no matter their level of riding. So this is something that would not only benefit us in being better viewed by the PTB but also make us better, and therefore safer, riders, and in the long term we won't be paying through the nose so much. Are BRONZ doing anything as a national movement? Is anyone?

I would suggest that courses the likes of RRRS and Roadsafe (apologies to any other riding courses of a similar standard that I've failed to mention) should be the minimum requirement for getting your provisional license.

The current BHS standard is laughable. I have first hand knowledge of riders getting their Basic Handling Skills certificate when they can't even negotiate a slow speed corner without encroaching on the other side of the road.

Riders should not be handed a provisional license until they have the confidence to be able to make basic life-saving decisions instantly.

[MSTRS]

Which is why it's important to start with the basics. Ie proper riding gear and basic maintainance.

That would work with new riders. What about the thousands out there right now? The ones who've honed their habit/s and survived so far?

[Genestho]

Is anyone?

Yes Indeedy - there are people already working with ACC within the the Motorcycling community, I'm aware of three centres, the levy protests held up progression in my local area, but things are back on track.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

The undertone of any possible change is down to the individual to want to achieve change as well.

[onearmedbandit]

I remember when I did my test back in 1990. It taught me nothing about riding. Now I realise it was just that, a test, but I had my road bike license before I properly understood how a road bike works.

[onearmedbandit]

That would work with new riders. What about the thousands out there right now? The ones who've honed their habit/s and survived so far?
Insurance discounts for all riders who successfully complete an intense training course?


Yes Indeedy - there are people already working with ACC within the the Motorcycling community, I'm aware of three centres, the levy protests held up progression in my local area, but things are back on track.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

The undertone of any possible change is down to the individual to want to achieve change as well.

Maybe the decision needs to be taken away from the individual? I can't believe I'm possibly advocating that, but leaving change up to individuals is like leaving a eunich looking after a whorehouse, nothings going to happen.

[Katman]

I remember when I did my test back in 1990. It taught me nothing about riding. Now I realise it was just that, a test, but I had my road bike license before I properly understood how a road bike works.

Back 20 or 30 years ago it was possible to get away with having a motorcycle license with virtually zero riding knowledge or experience.

Todays roads are a totally different environment.

[bogan]

I agree with pretty much all suggestions in this thread. But if courses etc are voluntary, the majority of people who turn up will be safety conscious to begin with, and if it is mandatory then it will be seen as unfair because cagers get fuck all training too.

[Katman]

and if it is mandatory then it will be seen as unfair because cagers get fuck all training too.

Motorcyclists are used to unfairness. We've had cc restrictions in place for as long as I can remember that car drivers have never had.

The benefits of making riding courses mandatory for obtaining a motorcycle license will easily outweigh any degree of unfairness.

[Genestho]

Insurance discounts for all riders who successfully complete an intense training course?



Maybe the decision needs to be taken away from the individual? I can't believe I'm possibly advocating that, but leaving change up to individuals is like leaving a eunich looking after a whorehouse, nothings going to happen.
As an aside.... I think it a great start to have the Motorcycling communty being apart of decisions - made aware of the data and being apart of training advice and to be in a position to give good advice to the likes of ACC and NZ Police, far more pro active place to be for all parties.

Perhaps if the knowledge and available training extended forward to the general community, at a grass roots level, perhaps that would go a long way?

At the end of the day decisions will be made with, or without our input. Our input is valuable.

[Katman]

I believe an added step in the process of gaining a full license would be worth considering as well.

After the 250cc restriction a further period restricted to 600cc could be imposed.

[bogan]

Motorcyclists are used to unfairness. We've had cc restrictions in place for as long as I can remember that car drivers have never had.

The benefits of making riding courses mandatory for obtaining a motorcycle license will easily outweigh any degree of unfairness.

true that we are used to unfairness. The benefits/unfairness depend on how the courses are implemented, if its a $500 three day course then that would suck, as a lot of learner riders are poor students and other find it hard to get time off work. Though if its free I'd go just for even if it wasn't mandatory.

[bogan]

I believe an added step in the process of gaining a full license would be worth considering as well.

After the 250cc restriction a further period restricted to 600cc could be imposed.

Any amendment to the restriction has to address the horsepower instead of this ridiculous notion of cc. some 250s and most 600s have more power than my 647, the modern ones have double the power in fact.

[Katman]

true that we are used to unfairness. The benefits/unfairness depend on how the courses are implemented, if its a $500 three day course then that would suck, as a lot of learner riders are poor students and other find it hard to get time off work. Though if its free I'd go just for even if it wasn't mandatory.

We are likely to always face unfairness and there will be plenty of motorcyclists who will loath any further restrictions or regulations imposed upon them.

The reality is however, that if we don't take on the responsibility ourselves, of improving our standing within the road-using public then someone else is going to do it for us. I guarantee that we'll like their ideas a whole lot less than our own.

[onearmedbandit]

How about bike specific training? Ie if you want to ride a 1000cc bike legally you have to prove you can handle what a bike like that accelerates, brakes, and handles like. Same with big dual purpose bikes. Obviously not all bikes would need specific training, ie going from a GN250 to a SV650 for example. I remember in Japan (don't know if it is still current) that unless you could physically pick your bike up you couldn't be licensed for it. I'm not suggesting we adopt that, but maybe bike specific training will go a lot further. Lets face it, the latest crop (and even the earlier ones) of sportsbikes are getting to be quite extreme. Didn't a ZX10R come with a warning that it was for advanced riders only, only no one policed that.

[yachtie10]

I agree with most on here but apart from better training to get provisionsal there should be more steps
I personally think to be able to ride a bike of over 100HP on the rd there should be another set of rules
e.g. A set of professional training courses that have to be passed (and paid for by rider)
Rating by CC is absurd and im not even sure power to weight ratio is the correct way to go as a powerful but heavy bike is just as dangerous as a light one (if not more so)

[onearmedbandit]

I agree with most on here but apart from better training to get provisionsal there should be more steps
I personally think to be able to ride a bike of over 100HP on the rd there should be another set of rules
e.g. A set of professional training courses that have to be passed (and paid for by rider)
Rating by CC is absurd and im not even sure power to weight ratio is the correct way to go as a powerful but heavy bike is just as dangerous as a light one (if not more so)

It's hard picking that magic number though isn't it. Is a 98hp bike really that much safer or less likely to be involved in a crash than a 102hp bike?

[avgas]

The only way we will achieve that is by dramatically reducing the number of motorcycle accidents.
Or increasing them until they ban us. Then we wouldn't have to pay a dime

[yachtie10]

It's hard picking that magic number though isn't it. Is a 98hp bike really that much safer or less likely to be involved in a crash than a 102hp bike?

no it is easy as my bike is just under 100HP :yes:

[dogsnbikes]

Lots of valid points....

I still think the riding gear or lack of is the grassroot issue,and that riding gear should be as standard as wearing a setbelt in a car regardless of wether your a seasoned rider or a newbie.......Basic maintance is good everyone should understand it,it helps give you a better understanding of you bike (well at least it should do)

We as riders need to get the message across to fellow riders who we feel need to improve their skills,behaviour whatever,I don't have a problem with telling others that I ride with or see they need to invest in gear,top of the line gear is out off range of alot of peoples,but there is head to toe gear for everyones bugets

maintain their bike,back off on the throttle you have nothing too prove and so on....

Ive seen a Harley where the tanks mounting bolt was missing and the guys attitude was "oh yeah been meaning to sort that out" or the guy on the buell that only had one engine mounting bolt in place and the rear shock was out of a holden one tonne ute FFS:angry:

This is the type of culture we end up beating our heads against a brick wall over... you know that redneck black helmet gloves are for pussies I can ride really fast down the foxton strights type rider

so if you see a rider who needs help just help him (who cares if they have a german helmet,36" hi bars)you may have just giving some advice that could save a life or injury

[MSTRS]

This is the type of culture we end up beating our heads against a brick wall over... you know that redneck black helmet gloves are for pussies I can ride really fast down the foxton strights type rider

so if you see a rider who needs help just help him (who cares if they have a german helmet,36" hi bars)you may have just giving some advice that could save a life or injury

Problem is, you can tell that type until you're blue in the face (or more likely, black and blue). Until they see it for themselves, or some law is passed....

[Katman]

Until they see it for themselves, or some law is passed....

The beauty is though that if someone is told often enough that they act like a wanker, they'll usually eventually do something about changing the way they act.





(Except me of course). :whistle:

[That looks like fun]

I have heard this put forward so many times, the we must change or die fix all philosophies. Actually cant bring myself to disagree with it, BUT (always a but) nobody seems to put forward how to create the change. Lots of this needs to change and that needs to change but no how.
The current system we seem to favour is beatings until the lesson is learned eg speeding tickets, or just raise the bar, eg 250cc and raised age before you can attain a license. That explains all the mid forties males killing themselves on bikes. :bye:
Its a bit like the drinking age, everyone thinks if we raise the drinking age all our problems will disappear overnight, after all we had no problems before they lowered it :blink:
My solution (yes I have one that I think will work) is to "Motivate Change" :yes: As a bike rider I learned to ride by riding, talking to others and falling off. Went to a couple of track days and found a lot of what I had taught myself and heard from others was tripe (I have perfected falling off though).
How to motivate change? Well in my experience money is a bloody good motivator. Graduated ACC fees dependent upon levels of training acquired? Insurance incentives for training? There are two quick ones. As for ATTGAT, you will never force people to be safe, get them to "think safe" and they will start to act safe.
Either that or we can just continue with the beatings until the lesson is learned. :yes:

[yachtie10]

The beauty is though that if someone is told often enough that they act like a wanker, they'll usually eventually do something about changing the way they act.





(Except me of course). :whistle:

Hope your right
certainly better than passing a law requiring you to wear gear all the time. which no doubt NZ will someday (hopefully I wont be here when it gets that bad)

One of the problems with such high targetted ACC levies is that people feel entitled to do what they want and be payed for if something bad happens. happens in the rest of our society except for road motorcyclists.

[bogan]

My solution (yes I have one that I think will work) is to "Motivate Change" :yes: As a bike rider I learned to ride by riding, talking to others and falling off. Went to a couple of track days and found a lot of what I had taught myself and heard from others was tripe (I have perfected falling off though).
How to motivate change? Well in my experience money is a bloody good motivator. Graduated ACC fees dependent upon levels of training acquired? Insurance incentives for training? There are two quick ones. As for ATTGAT, you will never force people to be safe, get them to "think safe" and they will start to act safe.

I agree with that, proper courses that have tests at the end (no pass, no reduction in levy). It won't force people to ride safe, but being properly educated is likely to make most think twice. The only problem I can spot is the money, discounts are unlikely to be huge (if we can convince tptb to give any at all) and training cost are likely to be pretty significant, doing a $300 course to save $50 bucks a year isn't a lot of motivation.

[Katman]

The first step should be to work out how to improve the basic handling skills course.

We need to be sending learner motorcyclists out onto public roads with adequate skills to comfortably survive - not just with enough skills to barely be able to ride a motorcycle.

[Katman]

This thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/125584-Fushimi-Technical-Center-motorcycle-driving-school. has me wondering whether we should implement a similar approach to training motorcyclists as the Japanese have.

Imagine if we turned out riders capable of even half that skill.

[bogan]

The first step should be to work out how to improve the basic handling skills course.

We need to be sending learner motorcyclists out onto public roads with adequate skills to comfortably survive - not just with enough skills to barely be able to ride a motorcycle.

agree with that, we actually did it on a step through clutchless/gearless fucking scooter, in a carpark. They may as well have had us ride a pushbike.

[imdying]

How about take the $200 ACC increase or whatever it was off of the rego, and make it a compulsory $500 addition on all motorcycle insurance policies two years from now. If you have an advanced training certificate no more than 5 years old, you don't have to pay for it. No, I don't advocate compulsory insurance. It won't capture everybody, but it might capture a few of the people with unregistered vehicles like off roaders?

Or at least something along the lines of 'Get training and you don't pay the big ACC sub, but you don't have to, and thus you would'?

[imdying]

The first step should be to work out how to improve the basic handling skills course.Maybe as the first part of a graduated training scheme, a life long journey into advanced riding techniques?

[Maha]

I agree with pretty much all suggestions in this thread. But if courses etc are voluntary, the majority of people who turn up will be safety conscious to begin with, and if it is mandatory then it will be seen as unfair because cagers get fuck all training too.

Most constructions sites today now have an induction course in place and they are mandatory.
If you dont comply, you dont work on site.
And its not just about your safety, its also about about the safety of others.

Same rule on the road.

[imdying]

I agree with pretty much all suggestions in this thread. But if courses etc are voluntary, the majority of people who turn up will be safety conscious to begin with, and if it is mandatory then it will be seen as unfair because cagers get fuck all training too.There's a lot of holes in the boat admittedly, so let us start by plugging the big ones first. Cagers are a risk that needs mitigating, but it's a lot easier for me personally to actively acknowledge and fix my own riding faults than grandma driving her Swift.

[MSTRS]

There's a lot of holes in the boat admittedly, so let us start by plugging the big ones first. Cagers are a risk that needs mitigating, but it's a lot easier for me personally to actively acknowledge and fix my own riding faults than grandma driving her Swift.

KM? Is that you? Same message, but the delivery 'works'...

[Katman]

There's a lot of holes in the boat admittedly, so let us start by plugging the big ones first. Cagers are a risk that needs mitigating, but it's a lot easier for me personally to actively acknowledge and fix my own riding faults than grandma driving her Swift.

Exactly. Instead of focusing on the inability of others to see us, we should be focusing on our ability to see them.

[imdying]

KM? Is that you? Same message, but the delivery 'works'...Hahahah, no no... but seriously, I could spend my entire life trying to fix up the standards of other peoples driving, but I'd be doomed to failure. What I can do though, is fix my own shitty habits, and if everybody did that (Tui?), the first bit would be moot anyway! Win win :first:

And a big dollar carrot as an incentive would make sure that I didn't procrastinate on the matter.

[Maha]

Exactly. Instead of focusing on the inability of others to see us, we should be focusing on our ability to see them.

Agreed, all to often we hear..''fucken cager didnt see me'' and we will keep on hearing that very same line for the rest of time.
The otherside of that statement is, the biker did however, see the car. The car just didn't see the biker. Albeit a little late at times.
Learning how to avoid such a situation is not all that difficult.
Totally avoiding it on the other hand, is difficult.

[Waxxa]

There are some valid points in previous posts; wearing the proper gear, riding training etc, all valid!

but what are we to do about factors outside a motorcyclist control? car drivers not seeing motorbikes, cars u-turning in front of bikes, road contractors who leave road repairs in apalling conditions, deisel on the road, crap flying off a trailor because the load wasn't tied down properly....

These factors also contribute to motorcycle accident stats and we are being penalised by increased levies to 'pay' for rehabilitation.

Its not just about 'us' having accidents but there is more issues to fix than just ATGATT and rider training.

[Katman]

but what are we to do about factors outside a motorcyclist control? car drivers not seeing motorbikes, cars u-turning in front of bikes, road contractors who leave road repairs in apalling conditions, deisel on the road, crap flying off a trailor because the load wasn't tied down properly....



Being seen to be taking a far greater degree of responsibility for our own safety may well give us far greater credibility when asking for the things outside our control to be addressed.

At the moment we just look as though we're blaming everything on anything but ourselves.

[imdying]

but what are we to do about factors outside a motorcyclist control? car drivers not seeing motorbikes, cars u-turning in front of bikes, road contractors who leave road repairs in apalling conditions, deisel on the road, crap flying off a trailor because the load wasn't tied down properly....Do? How can we do anything about those; as you say, they're outside of our control. Better to focus our efforts on what we can control, especially given there is such potential for tremondous gains in those areas alone. Once we sort that out, it'll put us into an immenensly strong position for which to lobby those that can make a difference to the things outside of our control. Asking for help to clean the crap in our front yard is a bit on the nose when we keep shitting in our back yard so often. Sucks for those that aren't the problem, but that will always be the case... they can take solace in the fact they're not in hospital with a tube to pee out of I guess.

/edit: tremondous gains, yeah, they're the big ones :D

[yachtie10]

Being seen to be taking a far greater degree of responsibility for our own safety may well give us far greater credibility when asking for the things outside our control to be addressed.

At the moment we just look as though we're blaming everything on anything but ourselves.

This makes sense and is all good but we are not being treated fairly now and I dont think a small improvement in the stats is going to change much as far as TPTB are concerned.

We can say riders ca clean up there act all we want but how do we make it happen?

[onearmedbandit]

Well for once I think we're actually getting close to agreeing on something here. Someone get a camera.

[onearmedbandit]

This makes sense and is all good but we are not being treated fairly now and I dont think a small improvement in the stats is going to change much as far as TPTB are concerned.

We can say riders ca clean up there act all we want but how do we make it happen?

I know, instead of being 'motorcyclists', we could all become 'motorcatalysts'. You know, we are the change ourselves.

[Katman]

I dont think a small improvement in the stats

Don't think small - think big.

[yachtie10]

Don't think small - thing big.

OK but if you solve the perenial problem of how to get through to all the young and return to riding riders. I will vote for Katman for prime minister

good luck

[imdying]

I know, instead of being 'motorcyclists', we could all become 'motorcatalysts'. You know, we are the change ourselves.Dude, that's deeeeeep. Have another bowl.

[onearmedbandit]

Dude, that's deeeeeep. Have another bowl.

That's exactly what I was thinking. And would you look at the time, I'm late!

[bogan]

I know, instead of being 'motorcyclists', we could all become 'motorcatalysts'. You know, we are the change ourselves.

fuck, we must be getting somewhere now, got a buzzword and everything :D

[onearmedbandit]

fuck, we must be getting somewhere now, got a buzzword and everything :D


Start printing the stickers and t-shirts!!

Wait, I've got register it first.

[imdying]

That's exactly what I was thinking. And would you look at the time, I'm late!Nah dude, you were 1 minute early!

[onearmedbandit]

Nah dude, you were 1 minute early!

Not when I did the edit I wasn't!

[Katman]

OK but if you solve the perenial problem of how to get through to all the young and return to riding riders.

It can be achieved by the responsible majority regaining vocal dominance over the retarded minority.

[imdying]

Somewhere in world, it's 4:20, that should be enough in itself :yes:

[onearmedbandit]

It can be achieved by the responsible majority regaining vocal dominance over the retarded minority.

I haven't seen him post for a couple of days now.

[Maha]

I haven't seen him post for a couple of days now.

Report just in...the cone doctor feels the extraction will take longer than first thought.

[Str8 Jacket]

Report just in...the cone doctor feels the extraction will take longer than first thought.

Whippy!!! Oh, I mean Whoopee....

[bogan]

It can be achieved by the responsible majority regaining vocal dominance over the retarded minority.

sometime I have to wonder if the proportions are the other way round these days though...

[Squiggles]

So now we seem to have a focus, how do we go about achieving it? The likes of ACC are interested and open to ideas...

[MSTRS]

So now we seem to have a focus, how do we go about achieving it? The likes of ACC are interested and open to ideas...

Are they? I've yet to see any proof of that. Other than the 'ideas' they come up weith themselves. Those ones haven't exactly pleased us.

[Squiggles]

Are they? I've yet to see any proof of that. Other than the 'ideas' they come up weith themselves. Those ones haven't exactly pleased us.


just thought I'd let you know that motor cycle safety will be a priority for ACC over the next financial year. Therefore I was wondering whether you, your members &/or associates had any particular ideas or thoughts on the issues of biker safety that we could work on together

</10characters>

[Katman]

Are they? I've yet to see any proof of that. Other than the 'ideas' they come up weith themselves. Those ones haven't exactly pleased us.

Open your eyes John - up till now they haven't seen any indication that we might be prepared to work with them.

Your sole focus on the idea of perpetuating the victim mentality will get us nowhere.

[MSTRS]

Don't get me wrong. I'd be all for an 'open and frank discussion and sharing of ideas'.
Just haven't seen anything to that end from ACC. There's been shedloads from 'us' to TPTB. What's happened? Nothing. Bar ringmarking $30 each 'for safety initiatives'.

[Katman]

Just haven't seen anything to that end from ACC. There's been shedloads from 'us' to TPTB.

No, all there's been from 'us' is wants.

So far there has been no indication from us that we have an issue within our ranks that we need to address.

[That looks like fun]

Forget Frank and his open discussions, I haven't learned a lot in life but I have learned that if you want someone to agree with an idea then you must sell it to them. Now thats the hard part.
Oh yeah the reason cagers don't see motorbikes, because they don't. So we can either live with that fact or let them kill us by not looking for them

[fossil]

Try posting some good ideas on:http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/125569-What-to-spend-our-30.00-ACC-levy-on.

You never know whose watching.

[yachtie10]

No, all there's been from 'us' is wants.

So far there has been no indication from us that we have an issue within our ranks that we need to address.

Im not criticising your initative but they have had a lot of very good ideas presented by a lot of intelligent people. Just because some on here rant on about dubious oven ridiculus answers doesnt mean some havnt put good submissions in to them that were constructive. I would guess that the right people didnt read them or they are not interested in anyone elses ideas.

But best of luck at getting a group together with a concencus to go forward. (I am serious not being sarcastic)
I am off to ride overseas for a few months (where im covered by ACC if I am injured (costs when I get home that is)

[Katman]

Just because some on here rant on about dubious oven ridiculus answers doesnt mean some havnt put good submissions in to them that were constructive.


Unfortunately, I don't imagine that one single submission to ACC prior to the levy increases included the words "we recognise that we have these problems within our ranks and plan to deal with them this way".

So far we have been seen as totally unaccommodating to the idea of compromise.

[That looks like fun]

"WE" is a word used to transfer fault. I am responsible for myself and no other. While the "we" need to fix this problem mantra persists it means "I" cant. Its a bit like the beatings idea, if you call someone a wanker often enough they might stop being one, or they might call you a wanker then it comes down to who is the biggest hardest hitting wanker being the winner,:angry:
Sounds like a loose loose solution to me. :sick:
Again I say motivate people so they buy into the solution. Sure training companies will spring up over night and rake it in. Would I rather pay to be safe (trained etc) or fixed (ACC) :yes:

[Katman]

Again I say motivate people so they buy into the solution.

I've always acknowleged the fact that there's many here that can present a similar idea in a far more palatable manner than I can.

[racefactory]

Best way to avoid the insane ACC costs is to not buy rego. Put it on hold and risk the fine. You can afford 2 and a bit a year and still be better off than if you paid the rego. Teaches you to drive responsibly too. However most people will be stuck to the 'proper' way society pressures us to feed the system despite the increased costs and outright robbing of the public.

[That looks like fun]

Best way to avoid the insane ACC costs is to not buy rego. Put it on hold and risk the fine. You can afford 2 and year and still be better off than if you paid the rego. Teaches you to drive responsibly too. Most people however will be stuck to the 'proper' way society pressures us to feed the system.

Another way to avoid it would be to not own a bike. But most people are stuck in societys pressure to own one:shifty:

[Neshi]

Nice Idea. But maybe the focus should be on reducing injuries first, be a bit easier to implement. How many of us have sucked up acc $$$$ by crashing without gear? (yes, I've done it) Seen lotsa scooter riders, and plenty of m/c riders too without anything but a helmet and f-all else. And then there's the off-road stuff to work on.... it all goes in the stats

If I'm riding around town (Wellington) for uni and groceries etc, I don't put on my full gear. A regular leather jacket, helmet and gloves is all that I need in my opinion, for going max 50km/h.

[racefactory]

UOTE=trademe900;1129806676]Best way to avoid the insane ACC costs is to not buy rego. Put it on hold and risk the fine. You can afford 2 and year and still be better off than if you paid the rego. Teaches you to drive responsibly too. Most people however will be stuck to the 'proper' way society pressures us to feed the system.

Another way to avoid it would be to not own a bike. But most people are stuck in societys pressure to own one:shifty:

That's the losers way!

[davereid]

Maybe it's time we accepted the levy increase that has been imposed upon us and now divert our energy towards insuring there are no further increases.The only way we will achieve that is by dramatically reducing the number of motorcycle accidents.

Motorcycle accidents are at an all time low.

The reason ACC hates us, is because on average we are rich.

Your ACC man has to pay you 80% of your income should you be unable to work as a result of an accident.

So, for a Man earning $125,000 a year, his rego buys him $100,000 of income protection insurance.
For the pensioner, his rego buys him $0 of income protection insurance.

The premium for both is the same.

Well, not quite.

I don't pay rego on 5 vehicles, saving me $2500 a year. Its a good deal, as I still get the cover. If I should get caught I will pay the fine, but guess what, its a year without reg in October, and so far no fines.

Even my U turn in front of the checkpoint on Tuesday in Pahiatua did not result in police attention.

Long live ACC, and a model that does not relate your cover, to what you pay.

[Katman]

That's the losers way!

No, the loser's way is to bury one's head in the sand and pretend that there's nothing wrong with the current state of Motorcycling.

[racefactory]

No, the loser's way is to bury one's head in the sand and pretend that there's nothing wrong with the current state of Motorcycling.

Nice post matey.

[Katman]

Motorcycle accidents are at an all time low.



What planet are you on?

[racefactory]

I don't pay rego on 5 vehicles, saving me $2500 a year. Its a good deal, as I still get the cover. If I should get caught I will pay the fine, but guess what, its a year without reg in October, and so far no fines.

Even my U turn in front of the checkpoint on Tuesday in Pahiatua did not result in police attention.

Long live ACC, and a model that does not relate your cover, to what you pay.

Nice, someone who isn't brainwashed and can think critically. It's a good thing there aren't many of us... else we'd be in deep trouble with our regos! Long live ACC!

[Mom]

What planet are you on?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Bling limits etc.

A valid one, and one that needs to be adressed in a non Katman way :D

[davereid]

What planet are you on?

I have the advantage of the facts...but don't let it ruin your ignorant tirade

[Katman]

I have the advantage of the facts...but don't let in ruin your ignorant tirade

Hmmm, you've made the same mistake that the good professor did.

Accidents per 10,000 motorcycles means jack shit.

The fact that these days there are far more motorcyclists that are owners of multiple motorcycles than years gone by, makes your 'advantage of facts' totally redundant.

[racefactory]

Hmmm, you've made the same mistake that the good professor did.

Accidents per 10,000 motorcycles means jack shit.

The fact that these days there are far more motorcyclists that are owners of multiple motorcycles than years gone by, makes your 'advantage of facts' totally redundant.

Lets see some evidence to your facts then Katty!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[That looks like fun]

I don't pay rego on 5 vehicles, saving me $2500 a year. Its a good deal, as I still get the cover. If I should get caught I will pay the fine, but guess what, its a year without reg in October, and so far no fines.


Good plan, its slightly reliant on the money tree being in fruit when claim time rolls around. Avoidance of a problem is what Drs call the "placebo" effect. :blink:

[davereid]

Good plan, its slightly reliant on the money tree being in fruit when claim time rolls around. Avoidance of a problem is what Drs call the "placebo" effect. :blink:

The money trees demand on its fruit is related more to the amount it spends on income protection than to its expenditure on accidents...

And while the overall health of the tree may be diminished by the fruit taken by the rich, its ability to provide me with my meagre fruit requirement is completely unrelated to to the amount of fertiliser I provided.

[davereid]

Hmmm, you've made the same mistake that the good professor did.

Accidents per 10,000 motorcycles means jack shit.

The fact that these days there are far more motorcyclists that are owners of multiple motorcycles than years gone by, makes your 'advantage of facts' totally redundant.

Yes, and of course, the modern family owns just one car...

[Ocean1]

Motorcyclists are used to unfairness.

Used to it?

Enough to have a working response down: Fuck off. Fuck off a long way and mind your own godamn business.

[That looks like fun]

The money trees demand on its fruit is related more to the amount it spends on income protection than to its expenditure on accidents...

And while the overall health of the tree may be diminished by the fruit taken by the rich, its ability to provide me with my meagre fruit requirement is completely unrelated to to the amount of fertiliser I provided.

My worry is not that their wont be enough fruit on the tree for me and you, My concern is to try and leave a healthy tree for my kids to get fruit from :mellow:

[Katman]

Used to it?

Enough to have a working response down: Fuck off. Fuck off a long way and mind your own godamn business.

So you think your looks will improve with the current bashing against a brick wall?

[Ocean1]

So you think your looks will improve with the current bashing against a brick wall?

You can assume I don't have a problem with my behaviour, anyone else's is their own concern.

Only time I bitch is when someone tries to make me responsible for someone else's behaviour. Like I said, fuck off.

[Katman]

Like I said, fuck off.

Perhaps you need to pull your head out of your arse.

Edit: (Respectfully speaking of course).

[racefactory]

Another 'fuck off' from over here too!

[racefactory]

My worry is not that their wont be enough fruit on the tree for me and you, My concern is to try and leave a healthy tree for my kids to get fruit from :mellow:

Yeah passing down our genes to future generations, our purpose and existence!

...Fuck your kids i'd rather grab all the fruit now!

[Katman]

...Fuck your kids i'd rather grab all the fruit now!

You sound young.........



.......and immature.

[racefactory]

Yeah sorry I'm just trolling- will leave you wise ones to it (pathetically abusing each other over a fucking message board) now.

[yachtie10]

Hmmm, you've made the same mistake that the good professor did.

Accidents per 10,000 motorcycles means jack shit.

The fact that these days there are far more motorcyclists that are owners of multiple motorcycles than years gone by, makes your 'advantage of facts' totally redundant.

I think your reaching here
accidents per motorcycles registered is relevant. it may not be the only measure but it is relevant

[Katman]

I think your reaching here
accidents per motorcycles registered is relevant. it may not be the only measure but it is relevant

Accidents per motorcyclists would be more relevant.

In a poll I posted a while ago over half the respondants owned 2 or more motorcycles.

[rastuscat]

I know, instead of being 'motorcyclists', we could all become 'motorcatalysts'. You know, we are the change ourselves.


Gag !!!!! Next we'll be sitting around hugging and signing Kumbayah..........

Seriously though, I've never seen a thread with so much common sense in it. It can't last.

[yachtie10]

Accidents per motorcyclists would be more relevant.

In a poll I posted a while ago over half the respondants owned 2 or more motorcycles.

But were they both/all registered? I know a lot of guys that have 2, 3 or four bikes but usually only one (if that) are registered. The others are track bikes, offroaders, project bikes or they just dont register them.

[yachtie10]

In a poll I posted a while ago over half the respondants owned 2 or more motorcycles.

Gee thats nearly as scientific as ACCs maths (sorry couldnt resist)

[Katman]

But were they both/all registered? I know a lot of guys that have 2, 3 or four bikes but usually only one (if that) are registered. The others are track bikes, offroaders, project bikes or they just dont register them.

I own four bikes - all registered- (albeit on hold).

[Katman]

Seriously though, I've never seen a thread with so much common sense in it. It can't last.

Give me time.:wacko:

[rastuscat]

It depends on where you live. I see a chap from Napier who says ACC doesn't work with bikers. Each area has an injury prevention person from ACC. I don't know who is responsible for Napier, but I know the Christchurch one, and she's a gem.

The injury prevention branch of ACC in Chch is trying to work with bike shops and groups. The ACC rep meets with reps from other groups and supports training days with money and time. The Popos also turn out, even though there is no revenue to collect. Imagine that.

Alisa (from ACC) will be at Ruapuna on 24 July for the next training day, and she has helped to pay for the training day with your ACC levies. Now, that's what it's for.

It's also paid for by David Golightly at Golightly Insurances. Think he is a Vero rep. David has a financial interest in less people making insurance claims, a concept that ACC also relates to. ACC is spending some money to save more money.

So there.

[duckonin]

Only to a defeatist.

The fact is that there are many ways we could reduce the number of motorcycle accidents.

More thorough basic training.
A change in attitude towards the way many of us use the road.
Improving situational awareness.


Same old same old....A change in attitude for 'many of us that use the road',What about the others ?

[davereid]

It depends on where you live. I see a chap from Napier who says ACC doesn't work with bikers. Each area has an injury prevention person from ACC. I don't know who is responsible for Napier, but I know the Christchurch one, and she's a gem.

The injury prevention branch of ACC in Chch is trying to work with bike shops and groups. The ACC rep meets with reps from other groups and supports training days with money and time. The Popos also turn out, even though there is no revenue to collect. Imagine that.

Alisa (from ACC) will be at Ruapuna on 24 July for the next training day, and she has helped to pay for the training day with your ACC levies. Now, that's what it's for.

It's also paid for by David Golightly at Golightly Insurances. Think he is a Vero rep. David has a financial interest in less people making insurance claims, a concept that ACC also relates to. ACC is spending some money to save more money.

So there.

ACC are to be applauded for some of the positive things they are doing. Even some of the latest road side posters targeting bikers are really quite good.

But the problem of a dead duck financial model remains.

ACC insure people, for personal injury and income protection.

In many other countries, your insurance premium reflects the risk to the insurer.. ie

- If your income is higher, your income protection insurance is higher
- your premium is mainly determined the the risk you pose to others (third party liability)
- If you ride or drive a vulnerable vehicle like a motorcycle you pay a higher premium for the risk of injury to yourself..(But you pay a lower premium overall, as you have less risk of liability for injuries to others)

Even though ACC is covering the same items, it insures people, but charges for vehicles.

Thus, the system is inherently flawed. The pensioner who has no ACC income protection cover, and drives a few km a year in a small car, pays the same as a company rep, insured for a hundred grand, who covers the pensioners annual mileage every week.

It also means, that like any charge, as it rises, people will avoid paying it. ACC lose revenue, yet the cover they provide remains unchanged.

$0.12c a litre on fuel would cover it. But ACC can't see past their annual registration fee. They want to use ACC levies to influence our choice in vehicles, and they cant do that with a fuel levy.

[Katman]

Same old same old....A change in attitude for 'many of us that use the road',What about the others ?

Hey, you can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

Your choice.

[duckonin]

Hey, you can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

Your choice.

I shall be neither as it is my choice," I remain responsible for my own health and saftey".....At the end of the day katman you start these topics but offer nothing in the way of a solution yourself... most of your time is spent being negative to others with your cynic attitude..

[Katman]

I shall be neither as it is my choice,

Sounds like a cop-out to me.

[caseye]

8 pages in one day, an afternoon in fact. Well done. A few of the usual, I'll be responsible for myself the rest can fuck off type comments but hey thats to be expected.
I've often said here in KB's threads that it would be better if we motorcyclists came up with iniatives that ACC could and would be happy assisting us with, instead of waiting till we' are legislated off the road because the boffins can see no other way of offsetting the tragic number of single vehicle motorcycle deaths.
Katmans initial idea, start amongst ourselves and get something rolling, take it to Gubbermint and ACC and saying heres what we can do,what can you do to help us? would actually work.Only of course if enough of us were seen to be getting behind the idea of motorcyclists taking responsibility for themselves and of course their peers collectively.
Fees are too high for motorcyclists.
ACC is not broke.
Butt , so what, the longer we spend debating what to do the easier it is for ACC and Govt departments to simply say, without anything forthcoming from the motorcyclists themselves we've decided to do this!
I'm interested in making sure we have a future as contributing members of society be that as motorcyclists involved with ACC or fighting Govt by protesting country wide about unfair levies and stupid legislation.
Unfortunately, the way we can't even get agreement on what to do is indicative of what is wrong with our group, too many indivifuals who insist they're OK Jack!

[Ronin]

I shall be neither as it is my choice," I remain responsible for my own health and saftey".....At the end of the day katman you start these topics but offer nothing in the way of a solution yourself... most of your time is spent being negative to others with your cynic attitude..

And you call KM a cynic? FWIW KM's message has largely always been on target but the delivery sucked. This thread is evidence of change. 8 pages of open frank ideas on how we could help ourselves.

I'm with the better training. Not just for us but for cagers as well. At the moment we are more or less handed a bit of paper and allowed to go out and kill or be killed. Survival mostly a matter of luck.

[MSTRS]

Unfortunately, the way we can't even get agreement on what to do is indicative of what is wrong with our group, too many indivifuals who insist they're OK Jack!

There's nothing really wrong with 'our group'. Barring the commuter-only-type, motorcyclists by and large ride for the sheer pleasure it brings. Although we may do that in a group, we are really a collective of individuals, each of whom get to choose how we ride and what we get out of it. None of us are ever going to agree on how best to approach safety initiatives. I've seen some people's riding, and can only wince at what I believe to be foolhardy, if not dangerous, actions. Yet I know they've been riding for 10/20/30/+ years without incident. Who am I to tell them they should be doing 'this' or 'that' if they want to be safe? Those same people quite likely have looked at me, and winced in turn. Yet my (non)accident record speaks for itself. I've also known some riders whose riding practices I would consider the safest around...but they still died on their bikes, due to reasons that are unclear (single bike, no witnesses).
In saying that, there must be a minimum level of competence reqd, and the current offerings of training around the country unfortunately ignore outside Auck/Welly/ChCh. With the exception of Nelson. There's a whole lot of us nowhere near those places. And I've heard nothing from ACC to remedy that.

[Squiggles]

It depends on where you live. I see a chap from Napier who says ACC doesn't work with bikers. Each area has an injury prevention person from ACC. I don't know who is responsible for Napier, but I know the Christchurch one, and she's a gem.

The injury prevention branch of ACC in Chch is trying to work with bike shops and groups. The ACC rep meets with reps from other groups and supports training days with money and time. The Popos also turn out, even though there is no revenue to collect. Imagine that.

Alisa (from ACC) will be at Ruapuna on 24 July for the next training day, and she has helped to pay for the training day with your ACC levies. Now, that's what it's for.

It's also paid for by David Golightly at Golightly Insurances. Think he is a Vero rep. David has a financial interest in less people making insurance claims, a concept that ACC also relates to. ACC is spending some money to save more money.

So there.

My opinion is that the flaw in the current system is there is a lack of overall vision (its all rather hit and miss, The rep for waitakere is doing one thing but the Auckland central guy is doing another, meanwhile mr motorcycle commutes from south Auckland to Titirangi...) That vision will either come from their HQ or from us as a collective.

[MSTRS]

I see a chap from Napier who says ACC doesn't work with bikers. Each area has an injury prevention person from ACC.

A couple of years ago (Ok, 3 or 4. But ACC ran subsidised training days at Puke at the time) we organised RRRS to run a day here in Napier. We approached the local ACC office for help, financial or practical. Even just assistance with finding a venue. Total waste of time. Nothing was offered in any shape of form. Didn't even get to speak to the 'Person that handles that'. So we just went ahead and did it all. We got KBers from P/N and Masterton, as well as local, and the day was very successful. The point is, we did it all ourselves, with no help from ACC. And even though we are now paying for such help, I seriously doubt that anything will have changed.

[mashman]

As my individuality requires.

If ACC have a pot of money for safety initiatives, who else does? LTNZ, VTNZ, the AA etc... the only way to REALLY get the message out there is on TV. To that end Katman, i'd suggest you write a Katman Safety Initiative Ad and submit it to KB for critique. They may add a touch of acceptable reality, IF you're prepared to meet whoever quibbles part way... Your target audience is ALL road users, not just us, pedestrians included. Once polished (X months/years???? if they listen), you could make a very interesting Ad with some of todays CGI. You have Weta out here no? Rather creative people too by all accounts. Would they be interested in sponsoring A Road Safety Initiative the likes of which have never been seen before. I suggest a 1 - 3 minute Ad, maybe more if the powers that be deem it worthy. There's plenty of creative minds out there that could help with your idea.


Here's my version.

--------------

Start with a disclaimer:

THIS IS A ROAD SAFETY INITIATIVE

Statistical Findings - The Road User, By Weta Digital

Concentrate, or you might miss it...

--------------

Take the highest ranked crashes and recreate them, but with a twist.

Have someone explaining your message, say 20 - 30 seconds, people WILL be curious, maybe explaining the most common causes of crashes, also explaining what the following "film" is about... perhaps Sir Ian McKellen, he's here at the moment?

My Ad is to present the statistics in a manner that grabs the audience?

Think, the cats eyes in the road actually turning out to be a fuckin huge crocodile, JUST under the surface of the road (we see it, they don't), or the grill of a truck going all terminator on a rider, but both happen VERY quickly and most of it is the end result, recreated from a police report... (dunno, bet there could be plenty of suggestions), guy in the background saying, coulda been a very different story, it really could, (Vince Martin saying) tyres not up to temp or at the wrong pressure, plenty of things if your car isn't maintained properly, (Jim the weatherman saying) it is cold out there Vince, coulda been standing water, gravel, ice, but (Jeremy Clarkson) looked like he was asleep with his eyes open, some of you really need to concentrate on driving and not doing your bloody makeup, or on your bloody mobile phone... (Murph) oooo he's really overcooked that and he's going into the barrier etc... (John Key) But it's sometimes and accident, but i was saying to Nick and Katman last year, it's costing us a bloody fortune, isn't it? ending with (David Attenborough) animals are creatures of habit, but when they focus on the good habits and completely ignore the bad ones, they can end up paying for it with their lives.

I'd also do an Ad on Speed and use Beyonds post, but I know you didn't like that idea :)... DUI too.

You want constructive and want to get a message out there to everyone. I understand that and there is how I would love to do it. It's a idea. What's yours? Perhaps others on here might share your verve for the impossible :)... and get their heads together, perhaps they won't... but you're gonna need a bigger Ad...

Or file me in the bin :)

[Katman]

Ok, here's an idea.

A full page ad run in all the motorcycle magazines.

Get two or three of New Zealands top motorcycle racers on board and run a full page photo of them - arms folded across their chests looking staunch - with the words above them saying "Think you're good enough? See you on the track". Underneath the photo the words 'The road is not a racetrack'.

[That looks like fun]

So should we live in the past or should we try and shape the future? I am not saying ignore the past but perhaps after we have learned from it we should move on.
It is quite right about bikers being individuals, everybody is an individual :yes: I sit at a lot of drivers meetings and hear people speak at length about issues with certain locations and always someone on an ego trip claims they don't have a problem and everyone needs to try harder to be as good as them :blink: So the boss (just like the gummint) hears that he doesn't need to do anything but continue with the beatings :angry:
So what needs to change? Has name calling and beatings worked? So how come we keep trying that system? :shutup:
Imagine if you could get $100 dollars off your rego by attending a $50 training session every two years. :yes: Lower Insurance premiums if you held unit standards in riding. :yes:
A bit of lateral thinking and we can shift that feckin elephant :yes:

[Katman]

So far I think we've established three areas that we can alter.

Improved riding training and rider awareness.
Increased awareness of the importance of adequate safety gear.
Removing the culture of treating the road as a racetrack.

We now need ideas about how to go about implementing these changes.

[MSTRS]

Ok, here's an idea.

A full page ad run in all the motorcycle magazines.



Good. But I'm not alone in not buying bike mags. Or any mags for that matter.

[Katman]

Good. But I'm not alone in not buying bike mags. Or any mags for that matter.

It's not all about you John.

[mashman]

Ok, here's an idea.

A full page ad run in all the motorcycle magazines.

Get two or three of New Zealands top motorcycle racers on board and run a full page photo of them - arms folded across their chests looking staunch - with the words above them saying "Think you're good enough? See you on the track". Underneath the photo the words 'The road is not a racetrack'.

might wanna consider semi-clad chicks too...

[Katman]

might wanna consider semi-clad chicks too...

Semi-clad chicks are always good.

[MSTRS]

It's not all about you John.

Only you seem to think it is...
Ads of any description are useless if they don't reach their intended audience. As I said, I'm not alone in not buying mags etc

[Katman]

Only you seem to think it is...
Ads of any description are useless if they don't reach their intended audience. As I said, I'm not alone in not buying mags etc

Are you suggesting that no-one buys motorcycle magazines?

[mashman]

It's not all about you John.

he's not alone Katman. We're not all like you. We don't all read mags, know the faces, follow racing that closely... unless you're targetting a demographic? this is not a personal attack.

[MSTRS]

Are you suggesting that no-one buys motorcycle magazines?:slap::thud:

[Katman]

he's not alone Katman. We're not all like you. We don't all read mags, know the faces, follow racing that closely... unless you're targetting a demographic?

I would say there's a great many New Zealand motorcyclists that buy motorcycle magazines. If there wasn't, Kiwirider, Bikerider and Motorcycle Trader would have disappeared long ago.

I would also say that there would be a great many New Zealand motorcyclists (particularly the ones who make a habit of treating the road like a racetrack) who would immediately recognise the faces of New Zealands top motorcycle racers.

[Katman]

:slap::thud:

You're the one trying to put up barriers John.

[miloking]

The beauty is though that if someone is told often enough that they act like a wanker, they'll usually eventually do something about changing the way they act.


(Except me of course). :whistle:

Wrong ! basic psychology 101 for you: ....if you are telling someone that they are wanker you are only enforcing and justifying the behaviour in their mind and person will continue doing the same forever and probably get even worse (like telling kid "you are naughty" they will just escalate that bad behaviour further)....read some books about it sometime....

[MSTRS]

You're the one trying to put up barriers John.

You may see it that way. Nothing wrong with ads in bike mags, but I just don't think that would be an effective use of the money.
Ads across all media, coupled with subsidised training days at all the country's tracks and free local workshops...now that I can see working.

[miloking]

And to all of you coming up with wonderful ideas on how to make ACC and public like us...and save lots of lives by improving skills and what not...

Start with yourself and your skills before wanting to preach to anybody else! (how about that?)

[bogan]

You may see it that way. Nothing wrong with ads in bike mags, but I just don't think that would be an effective use of the money.
Ads across all media, coupled with subsidised training days at all the country's tracks and free local workshops...now that I can see working.

I agree, though emphasis should be placed on training rather than ads imo, as we are a minority blankt ads cost more to get the message out per biker, whereas being a minority training a significant number is not such a daunting task. The acc safety levy coupled with a healthy dose of volunteerism should cover it!


And to all of you coming up with wonderful ideas on how to make ACC and public like us...and save lots of lives by improving skills and what not...

Start with yourself and your skills before wanting to preach to anybody else! (how about that?)

What makes you think we haven't already? and offering (the thread seems to have gone away from the ideas of making shit mandatory) an oppourtunity for bikers to become safer doesn't sound like preaching to me, sounds more like common sense.

[MSTRS]

Start with yourself and your skills before wanting to preach to anybody else! (how about that?)

Ahhh...the longer one has ridden, esp without coming off etc, implies that one has sufficient knowledge on the subject to do said 'preaching'. Riding a bike is more than just staying on it.

[davebullet]

Regarding riding gear - I think legislation is the only way really. You are not going to appeal to people to make a grudge purchase. Apart from keeping warmer and drier, why would the people that never ATTGATT ever want to invest in hundreds of dollars of riding gear when they will "never" crash?

Imagine if helmets weren't legislated. How many scooter riders would wear them? A hell of a lot less I would guess.

[miloking]

I
What makes you think we haven't already? and offering (the thread seems to have gone away from the ideas of making shit mandatory) an oppourtunity for bikers to become safer doesn't sound like preaching to me, sounds more like common sense.

Depends on the way its presented, most of the time its just preaching... to be honest ACC/Government collects enough money from motorcyclists to run "free" educational courses/trackdays for everybody who wants to get learnes licence...but what we got instead is a "scratchie test" and basic handling skills (meaning ride crapy little bike between two cones and put it on a side stand) and after that you are good to go to buy RS250...

[Katman]

I agree, though emphasis should be placed on training rather than ads imo, as we are a minority blankt ads cost more to get the message out per biker, whereas being a minority training a significant number is not such a daunting task. The acc safety levy coupled with a healthy dose of volunteerism should cover it!


That's precisely why I think advertisements in the motorcycle magazines would be one of the most cost effective uses of money.

They would reach a shit load of New Zealand motorcyclists and who knows, the magazine publishers may even offer to run the ads at a reduced cost if they felt strongly enough about improving the state of motorcycling in NZ.

[miloking]

Ahhh...the longer one has ridden, esp without coming off etc, implies that one has sufficient knowledge on the subject to do said 'preaching'. Riding a bike is more than just staying on it.

I have never come off a bike...like ever! have been riding since i was 15...now i would not dare to start telling someone how to ride or what to do about safety, its a big responsibility to take on, so you not coming off for long time means fuck all (you were lucky too just like me) and doesnt give you "licence" to preach either.

[DMNTD]

That's precisely why I think advertisements in the motorcycle magazines would be one of the most cost effective uses of money.

They would reach a shit load of New Zealand motorcyclists and who knows, the magazine publishers may even offer to run the ads at a reduced cost if they felt strongly enough about improving the state of motorcycling in NZ.

Too true...could also be a goodun that when people purchase their bike's rego that recieve $XYZ discount on a training course, or similar.

One thing that irks me is how 50cc scooter riders do not require a motorcycle license. Madness!

[MSTRS]

I have never come off a bike...like ever! have been riding since i was 15...now i would not dare to start telling someone how to ride or what to do about safety, its a big responsibility to take on, so you not coming off for long time means fuck all (you were lucky too just like me) and doesnt give you "licence" to preach either.

When did I preach? Although I consider I'm in a better position to do so than many, should I be bitten by the bug to do so. Experience and track record go further than your so-called luck...

[Ronin]

That's precisely why I think advertisements in the motorcycle magazines would be one of the most cost effective uses of money.

They would reach a shit load of New Zealand motorcyclists and who knows, the magazine publishers may even offer to run the ads at a reduced cost if they felt strongly enough about improving the state of motorcycling in NZ.

I see what your getting at but then not all bike riders read bike mags. I have bough 1 in the last 18 months and I didn't look at any ads. I honestly feel that any campaign needs to be mainstream media. The up side of this is that even non riders see the message.

[Katman]

I see what your getting at but then not all bike riders read bike mags. I have bough 1 in the last 18 months and I didn't look at any ads. I honestly feel that any campaign needs to be mainstream media. The up side of this is that even non riders see the message.

I'm not suggesting that an ad in a bike mag is the only idea we should run with.

I'm not that one-dimensional.

:blink:

[Katman]

And I don't think we need to get too tied up in the idea of trying to get a message straight out to every single motorcyclist from day one.

It's important though to get something rolling which may start it's own snowball effect.

[scracha]

Discount on insurance...well we can't force commercial companies to implement that, but it'd be common sense for the insurance companies to do so.
Discount rego/ACC levies on a similar level to how insurance companies work would seem the most obvious idea. There's a minority (but still far too many)l of riders out there who seem to fall off quite a lot. Discount for number of claim free years. Discount for taking advanced rider training. Put a weighting on riders with lots of points. Multi-bike discount would also be nice too. Fuck it...scrap ACC :-)

[Ronin]

Discount on insurance...well we can't force commercial companies to implement that, but it'd be common sense for the insurance companies to do so.
Discount rego/ACC levies on a similar level to how insurance companies work would seem the most obvious idea. There's a minority (but still far too many)l of riders out there who seem to fall off quite a lot. Discount for number of claim free years. Discount for taking advanced rider training. Put a weighting on riders with lots of points. Multi-bike discount would also be nice too. Fuck it...scrap ACC :-)

I still think that having Rego fees linked to demerit points is a great idea.

[caseye]

First, equality of all motorists when it comes to fees.
Second,One registration per year per person that attracts an ACC content.All other vehicles owned by that person to be registered annually at current registration costs, only.All vehicles owned to be maintained to WOF standard and seen annually! not 6 monthly.
Third,Fleet owners pay rego and ACC on all vehicles owned by the fleet operator as they attract multiple drivers etc employed by and who's ACC content is paid for by the fleet operator anyhow ,ie : status quo.
Fouth,Discounts for years in/on vehicles without accidnet or incident.
Fifth,Further discounts for advanced course attended for any/all vehicles.
Sixth,Further discounts for those riders who regularly employ ATGATT.
OK Thats my starters list.
It's simple and uncomplicated.
Now all I've got to do is get a whole bunch of hairy arsed bikers to agree to all or most of it and then put their actual support behind me to take it further.
Keep kicking this football folks lets see what else comes of it.
I'm involved in trying to change attitudes from within now and I can tell you it's no easy road.But I consider it worth a crack!.

[Katman]

First, equality of all motorists when it comes to fees.
Second,One registration per year per person that attracts an ACC content.All other vehicles owned by that person to be registered annually at current registration costs, only.All vehicles owned to be maintained to WOF standard and seen annually! not 6 monthly.
Third,Fleet owners pay rego and ACC on all vehicles owned by the fleet operator as they attract multiple drivers etc employed by and who's ACC content is paid for by the fleet operator anyhow ,ie : status quo.
Fouth,Discounts for years in/on vehicles without accidnet or incident.
Fifth,Further discounts for advanced course attended for any/all vehicles.
Sixth,Further discounts for those riders who regularly employ ATGATT.
OK Thats my starters list.
It's simple and uncomplicated.
Now all I've got to do is get a whole bunch of hairy arsed bikers to agree to all or most of it and then put their actual support behind me to take it further.
Keep kicking this football folks lets see what else comes of it.
I'm involved in trying to change attitudes from within now and I can tell you it's no easy road.But I consider it worth a crack!.

Sorry Mark, but that's just going back to the same old demanding what we want.

The idea of this thread is to work out what we can do for ourselves, and how we can work with ACC, to improve our lot.

Until we achieve that we have no show of getting the government to take the slightest notice of what we want.

[mashman]

Sorry Mark, but that's just going back to the same old demanding what we want.

The idea of this thread is to work out what we can do for ourselves, and how we can work with ACC, to improve our lot.

Until we achieve that we have no show of getting the government to take the slightest notice of what we want.

Have you broken down the ACC stats to find out what area actually needs to be targeted? or are you just hitting and hoping? A magazine would yield obvious results. :shutup:

[StoneY]

For once Katmans thread not only held merit but has come to be a partial reality.

BRONZ is working with ACC to assist with sensible spending of the ACC levy money.
BRONZ Wellington was actively approached for this purpose (by ACC) and provided riders and equipment for modeling purposes with assistance of two local bike shops.

We have invited a professional training organization to assist us with good advice in a cooperative partnership, who they are is privy to BRONZ members at this time but will be made public in the future.

Subsidized training courses are rolling out to approved qualified training institutes and services.
Issue's around 'minimum standards' of safety gear under discussion.
Online resources being re-vamped and brought up to date with links to essential services and training resources refreshed and updated.

I have found out over the last few weeks that we were heard on the 17th of November last year.
Important people in ACC were at Parliament, and seeing 6000 + bikes ride in one group and no bins, we earned their respect and now have an open channel of communication to the office that matters.

BRONZ will have a national rep on the committee that spends this money, and we are already being heard, as well as actively sought for advice.

Charles Lambs carefully researched data is in their hands and many of the myths are now being busted.

While the levy increase was unpalatable and largely unfair, we have an angle on the inside and will be working to ensure we get better treatment in all future decisions regarding the future of motorcyclists and the ACC system.

BRONZ still seeks to achieve many of the points in Mark's post above (Casseye to those that do not know the man) but meantime we can achieve some of our goals by cooperating and advising the people holding the purse strings, and that is a reality that is happening already.

Shiny side up
StoneY

[davereid]

Have you broken down the ACC stats to find out what area actually needs to be targeted? :shutup:

I have done the numbers. And motorcyclists are doing very well.

We have the lowest accident rate ever. However, our overall costs are higher

- Many motorcyclists are high income earners.

- Helmets have have reduced death rate by a few percent, at the cost of a massive increase in long term medical care for brain injured (but alive) bikers, and paraplegic/tetraplegic bikers.

We are on average very good drivers..

71 % of our crashes are collisions and motorcyclists are responsible for 1/3 of these accidents.

Of all crashes including single vehicle ones, the motorcyclist was primarily responsible for 51%.

Note : When statistics indicate motorcyclists are primarily responsible for 51% of all crashes, this actually indicates a good standard of driving.

Consider a population of 100 vehicles.
If they all crash in single vehicle crashes, then they are primarily responsible for 100% of crashes.
If they all crash into another vehicle, they are primarily responsible for 50% of crashes.

The BEST result for a subset of the general population that you could statistically expect is 50%, the worst is 100%

So bikers are doing pretty well.

(Source http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf)

[Viking01]

Hi,
This thread has been an interesting read this afternoon. Still thinking about what many have said, and mulling over some of the ideas in my mind. Some are quite positive.

Do I have anything specific to contribute at this moment : No - not right now - I'm still thinking about some of the issues discussed.

A few thoughts or observations along the way (targetted at none in particular, by the way):

1. KB Safety Forum (or Safer Rider Forum)
Am I missing something, or do we NOT have a specific KB forum (or sub-forum) dedicated to improving motorcycle safety ?
I can see (i) ACC Levy (ii) Survivor Skills , but I can't see one dedicated to improving motorcycle safety. I see certain companies that offer rider safety courses posting in the General forum, but not in a forum dedicated to promoting and supporting Safer Riding. If there is a specific forum for that purpose, I'm happy to be directed there and to read it, if it is bured somewhere.

2. ACC Promoting Rider Safety / Not Paying ACC Levies
Have I worked at ACC in the last three years, and seen how some of the organisation work and their systems operate - Yes.
Let's not fault the organisation and its people for some of the political decisions that are being made in their name.

Do I think that some of the ACC income stream could be more / better directed towards promoting and supporting rider safety - Yes.
Maybe they do need our help, and maybe 'Yes', a more concerted and co-ordinated voice would help.

Do I like the increased ACC levy levels for motorcycles - No, not particularly. Do I pay my ACC levies (via vehicle registration) - Yes, without exception. [Two cars plus two motorcycles - one 250cc , one 800cc]. Do I like other road users avoiding paying ACC levies while I do pay - well, it does fees like I'm subsidising a health and rehabilitaion service that non-contributors will still be able to take advantage of - should they need to - but at no cost to themselves. Totally their choice, but not particularly equitable. That's life.

3. The Scooter Riders
I read regularly in and around Wellington, and to work as often as I can. Before going further ((i) Yes, I ride a Honda (ii) Yes, I ride fully geared up at all times (iii) Yes, I do watch my speed most of the time - although I prefer to watch the road instead (iv) Yes, I'm over 50 (with teenage boys who ride, and with the proper gear).

But I have to say some of you scooter riders scare the "#$%&" out of me, when riding with just a helmet (and maybe gloves). I have to admire your courage (?). Even one or two who posted today remarked (i) why should I wear full safety gear when I'm only doing 50 km/hour at most ? And why should I pay the same in ACC levies as those riding bigger machines ? Interesting quetions.

All I can surmise is that (i) you have never tried to jump off their scooter onto coarse chip at 50km/hour as a practical test, or ever had to do so - and evaluated the benefit of protective gear (ii) somehow you think you can't do much that damage at that speed - maybe a visit to A&E and to surgery might be instructive (iii) that skin grafts must somehow be seen as 'cool' or 'desirable' (maybe like getting tattos) , that it doesn't hurt getting them, and that getting reconstructive surgey and skin grafts can't really cost that much. Well, far be it from me to burst your bubble. I can only hope your luck holds.

And lastly, have I had a recent crash ? Yes - I 'lost' the Honda (at low speed on ice) going to work in the dark recently. 215kgs of Honda ended up on my right leg, pining me to the road. Luckily, only a few bumps and bruises (and no breaks) - very fortunate.
Q: Did I think beforehand I would never have an accident - No. But I did hope that would be the case.
Q: Could it have been prevented - Don't think so. Have been riding a while, and i'm always a cautious rider.
Q: Did previous riding practice save me - No. Not in this case. It all happened so quickly, and without warning.
Q: Did protective gear make a difference - Yes. Absolutely. No boots and bare legs would not have been pretty.
Q: Any claim on ACC - No.

[Viking01]

Hi,
This thread has been an interesting read this afternoon. Still thinking about what many have said, and mulling over some of the ideas in my mind. Some are quite positive.

Do I have anything specific to contribute at this moment : No - not right now - I'm still thinking about some of the issues discussed.

A few thoughts or observations along the way (targetted at none in particular, by the way):

1. KB Safety Forum (or Safer Rider Forum)
Am I missing something, or do we NOT have a specific KB forum (or sub-forum) dedicated to improving motorcycle safety ?
I can see (i) ACC Levy (ii) Survivor Skills , but I can't see one dedicated to improving motorcycle safety. I see certain companies that offer rider safety courses posting in the General forum, but not in a forum dedicated to promoting and supporting Safer Riding. If there is a specific forum for that purpose, I'm happy to be directed there and to read it, if it is bured somewhere.

2. ACC Promoting Rider Safety / Not Paying ACC Levies
Have I worked at ACC in the last three years, and seen how some of the organisation work and their systems operate - Yes.
Let's not fault the organisation and its people for some of the political decisions that are being made in their name.

Do I think that some of the ACC income stream could be more / better directed towards promoting and supporting rider safety - Yes.
Maybe they do need our help, and maybe 'Yes', a more concerted and co-ordinated voice would help.

Do I like the increased ACC levy levels for motorcycles - No, not particularly. Do I pay my ACC levies (via vehicle registration) - Yes, without exception. [Two cars plus two motorcycles - one 250cc , one 800cc]. Do I like other road users avoiding paying ACC levies while I do pay - well, it does fees like I'm subsidising a health and rehabilitaion service that non-contributors will still be able to take advantage of - should they need to - but at no cost to themselves. Totally their choice, but not particularly equitable. That's life.

3. The Scooter Riders
I read regularly in and around Wellington, and to work as often as I can. Before going further ((i) Yes, I ride a Honda (ii) Yes, I ride fully geared up at all times (iii) Yes, I do watch my speed most of the time - although I prefer to watch the road instead (iv) Yes, I'm over 50 (with teenage boys who ride, and with the proper gear).

But I have to say some of you scooter riders scare the "#$%&" out of me, when riding with just a helmet (and maybe gloves). I have to admire your courage (?). Even one or two who posted today remarked (i) why should I wear full safety gear when I'm only doing 50 km/hour at most ? And why should I pay the same in ACC levies as those riding bigger machines ? Interesting quetions.

All I can surmise is that (i) you have never tried to jump off their scooter onto coarse chip at 50km/hour as a practical test, or ever had to do so - and evaluated the benefit of protective gear (ii) somehow you think you can't do much that damage at that speed - maybe a visit to A&E and to surgery might be instructive (iii) that skin grafts must somehow be seen as 'cool' or 'desirable' (maybe like getting tattos) , that it doesn't hurt getting them, and that getting reconstructive surgey and skin grafts can't really cost that much. Well, far be it from me to burst your bubble. I can only hope your luck holds.

And lastly, have I had a recent crash ? Yes - I 'lost' the Honda (at low speed on ice) going to work in the dark recently. 215kgs of Honda ended up on my right leg, pining me to the road. Luckily, only a few bumps and bruises (and no breaks) - very fortunate.
Q: Did I think beforehand I would never have an accident - No. But I did hope that would be the case.
Q: Could it have been prevented - Don't think so. Have been riding a while, and i'm always a cautious rider.
Q: Did previous riding practice save me - No. Not in this case. It all happened so quickly, and without warning.
Q: Did protective gear make a difference - Yes. Absolutely. No boots and bare legs would not have been pretty.
Q: Any claim on ACC - No.

[onearmedbandit]

Ok, here's an idea.

A full page ad run in all the motorcycle magazines.

Get two or three of New Zealands top motorcycle racers on board and run a full page photo of them - arms folded across their chests looking staunch - with the words above them saying "Think you're good enough? See you on the track". Underneath the photo the words 'The road is not a racetrack'.

One problem with that is a lot of riders who do ride fast on the road are aware they are not at the level of NZ's top racers, and on top ofhat they don't aspire to. They just enjoy riding their bikes at speeds that sometimes exceed the limits.

[onearmedbandit]

Ok, here's an idea.

A full page ad run in all the motorcycle magazines.

Get two or three of New Zealands top motorcycle racers on board and run a full page photo of them - arms folded across their chests looking staunch - with the words above them saying "Think you're good enough? See you on the track". Underneath the photo the words 'The road is not a racetrack'.

One problem with that is a lot of riders who do ride fast on the road are aware they are not at the level of NZ's top racers, and on top ofhat they don't aspire to. They just enjoy riding their bikes at speeds that sometimes exceed the limits.

[PrincessBandit]

And to all of you coming up with wonderful ideas on how to make ACC and public like us...and save lots of lives by improving skills and what not...

Start with yourself and your skills before wanting to preach to anybody else! (how about that?)


I have never come off a bike...like ever! have been riding since i was 15...now i would not dare to start telling someone how to ride or what to do about safety, its a big responsibility to take on, so you not coming off for long time means fuck all (you were lucky too just like me) and doesnt give you "licence" to preach either.

A lot of people are trying to find ways to make a positive impact on the current situation motorcyclists are facing themselves in. People having to now put rego on hold (which they normally wouldn't do), people even deciding to sell their bikes because they can't afford to keep them legally on the road anymore. Note the word legall[/[I]I]y.
Rather than getting uptight because you feel you're being preached at, either come up with something positive and workable, or stop reading threads which upset your sensitive nature.

Oh, and for the record, a lot of riders are "starting with the man (or woman) in the mirror". If you had been around long enough you might have noticed that.

[Katman]

They just enjoy riding their bikes at speeds that sometimes exceed the limits.

Hey, even I enjoy riding my bike at speeds that sometimes exceed the limits. The fact that my license is currently dangling by a thread is testament to that fact. (Having said that, the highest ticketed speed has been for 125kph).

Treating the road as a racetrack however, is a totally different thing and we need to do whatever we can to remove the culture that sees it as acceptable to ride in such a manner.

[davereid]

Treating the road as a racetrack however, is a totally different thing and we need to do whatever we can to remove the culture that sees it as acceptable to ride in such a manner.

The facts would suggest that even a massive effort in up-skilling and attitude modification would have little effect. It cannot be overlooked that 71% of crashes are collisions and we contribute to only 1/3 of those.

Even considering the overall balance of crashes, we are way and above the best drivers in NZ.

If ACC really want to save money, they should ban helmets. It would drop the long term support costs for the annual crop of alive but brain dead bikers almost to nil.

But, the elimination of the brain dead would destroy kiwibiker... so best avoided.

[Katman]

Even considering the overall balance of crashes, we are way and above the best drivers in NZ.


Man, I want some of what you're on. :wacko:

[Ocean1]

Man, I want some of what you're on. :wacko:

It's only available to people that didn't skip most of their 3rd form arithemetic classes.

[Katman]

It's only available to people that didn't skip most of their 3rd form arithemetic classes.

I could tell you that I got 94% for U.E. maths but you probably wouldn't believe me.

[miloking]

A lot of people are trying to find ways to make a positive impact on the current situation motorcyclists are facing themselves in. People having to now put rego on hold (which they normally wouldn't do), people even deciding to sell their bikes because they can't afford to keep them legally on the road anymore. Note the word legall[/[I]I]y.
Rather than getting uptight because you feel you're being preached at, either come up with something positive and workable, or stop reading threads which upset your sensitive nature.

Oh, and for the record, a lot of riders are "starting with the man (or woman) in the mirror". If you had been around long enough you might have noticed that.

Yeah i did come up with something positive and workable...like million people did before me: NZTA needs stop giving out motorcycle liences with every box of cereal (cage lincences too for that matter) but goverment doesnt care they just want to collect our money from fees and go about their spending habits...

just look at driving standarts in Europe and how hard and expensive is to get licence...vs. driving standarts in NZ and how cheap and easy is to get licence here!

Example: i have colleague who wants to get bike (talking about ninjas and aprillias already)....doesnt have a car licence or anything yet so has done his "basic skills" test and now just needs to answer 35 stupid scratchie test questions and he can go and buy what ever bike he wants (250cc) as long as he displays his stupid L plate! How is that any safe?

So again all the guys preaching how to improve skills of bikers that have possibly been riding for years...how is that going to help motorcycling image when most accidents are young guys on learners or restricted (as per ACC stats 250cc are most accident prone group...fees dont reflect that but thats another story)

[MSTRS]

Hey, even I enjoy riding my bike at speeds that sometimes exceed the limits. The fact that my license is currently dangling by a thread is testament to that fact. (Having said that, the highest ticketed speed has been for 125kph).


You want a medal? Or lessons in safe, sensible riding?

[Katman]

Yeah i did come up with something positive and workable...like million people did before me: NZTA needs stop giving out motorcycle liences with every box of cereal (cage lincences too for that matter) but goverment doesnt care they just want to collect our money from fees and go about their spending habits...

just look at driving standarts in Europe and how hard and expensive is to get licence...vs. driving standarts in NZ and how cheap and easy is to get licence here!

Example: i have colleague who wants to get bike (talking about ninjas and aprillias already)....doesnt have a car licence or anything yet so has done his "basic skills" test and now just needs to answer 35 stupid scratchie test questions and he can go and buy what ever bike he wants (250cc) as long as he displays his stupid L plate! How is that any safe?

So again all the guys preaching how to improve skills of bikers that have possibly been riding for years...how is that going to help motorcycling image when most accidents are young guys on learners or restricted (as per ACC stats 250cc are most accident prone group...fees dont reflect that but thats another story)

If you learned to comprehend English you'd see that improving rider training standards is something that has been mentioned numerous times already in this thread.

Thanks for adding your vote to it.

[miloking]

You want a medal? Or lessons in safe, sensible riding?

Dont worry Mr."Know it all" Katman has double standarts ...all you hear from him is "bikers who dont obey law are wankers" vs "i like to speed sometimes too"..

BTW thanks for all the nice rep Katman...truth hurts sometimes doesnt it and no amount of calling me wanker or retard is going to change that!

[mashman]

just look at driving standarts in Europe and how hard and expensive is to get licence...vs. driving standarts in NZ and how cheap and easy is to get licence here!


they get it wrong there too ya know... Took me 5 days over 4 weeks to go from 0 to any bike i wanted in the UK... I just had to be over 25 and be able to pay for it... A DAS course no less... VERY WRONGLY in my eyes... lucky i'm such a careful person really :)

[Katman]

Dont worry Mr."Know it all" Katman has double standarts ...all you hear from him is "bikers who dont obey law are wankers"

Care to point out where I've ever said that?

I'd love to see it.

As for the rep - you're welcome.

[miloking]

If you learned to comprehend English you'd see that improving rider training standards is something that has been mentioned numerous times already in this thread.

Thanks for adding your vote to it.

OK so why is it not happening??????


ACC says lots of young people have accidents, lots of cost, fees need to go up bla bla.... and on the other hand all they changed is stupid legal age for licence to 16, that doesnt sound like they are realy behind the "safety message" very much so why should we?

[miloking]

Care to point out where I've ever said that?

I'd love to see it.

All the fucking time...especially to me, that my bad attitude is going to ruin motorcycling for all of us bla bla...

Yes i like to speed, yes i like to break stupid traffic laws... and so do you as it seems so we are even but i dont go out and try to teach people how to be "safe out there"

[scracha]

they get it wrong there too ya know... Took me 5 days over 4 weeks to go from 0 to any bike i wanted in the UK... I just had to be over 25 and be able to pay for it... A DAS course no less... VERY WRONGLY in my eyes... lucky i'm such a careful person really :)
Yep, I think Direct Access to big bikes is bonkers too, but at least you'd have had a fuckload of training before getting out on a big bike. You've been given more formal training than probably 99% of motorcyclists over here, many who've been riding for years.



So again all the guys preaching how to improve skills of bikers that have possibly been riding for years...how is that going to help motorcycling image when most accidents are young guys on learners or restricted (as per ACC stats 250cc are most accident prone group...fees dont reflect that but thats another story)
Yep, totally agree that new riders need much better training. As for "preaching", not sure what you're on about? We're merely discussing ways of reducing the ACC component of our rego costs. If that means "experienced" bikers (like you and I) as well as new riders have to attend a subsidised training/refresher courses every couple of years in order to get our rego costs halved then I'm up for it. Experienced bikers may or may not get something out of it (I would imagine they would) but hopefully if it gets our house in order with regards to crashing and improves the public's current "stupid biker" perception then it can't be a bad thing? It would also give us a leg to stand on when we start demanding that car drivers get better training and more restrictions when they start driving.

[Paul Searancke]

Open your eyes John - up till now they haven't seen any indication that we might be prepared to work with them.

Your sole focus on the idea of perpetuating the victim mentality will get us nowhere.

Motorcycling New Zealand Inc (MNZ) made a submission to ACC here is a synopsis; http://www.mnz.co.nz/newsDetail.aspx?SectionID=29&ArticleID=31584
We have a positive ongoing working relationship with ACC and other government agencies. Solution based advocacy has and is being provided at the highest levels for the betterment of all motorcyclists.

Paul Searancke
Recreation/Leisure Commissioner
Motorcycling New Zealand Inc

[That looks like fun]

I have my driving assessed every month's as part of my work requirements. It is possible to take it 2 ways, "the bastards" are just covering their asses, or "this is a chance for me to measure myself against a standard".
One method can be looked at as preaching, the other as learning. Only real difference is how I perceive things

[PrincessBandit]

...............One method can be looked at as preaching, the other as learning. Only real difference is how I perceive things

Good call on perception. Attitude makes a big difference in response.

[Katman]

Motorcycling New Zealand Inc (MNZ) made a submission to ACC here is a synopsis; http://www.mnz.co.nz/newsDetail.aspx?SectionID=29&ArticleID=31584
We have a positive ongoing working relationship with ACC and other government agencies. Solution based advocacy has and is being provided at the highest levels for the betterment of all motorcyclists.

Paul Searancke
Recreation/Leisure Commissioner
Motorcycling New Zealand Inc

Thanks for entering the debate Paul.

Where does MNZ stand regarding the attitude of motorcyclists who treat the road as a racetrack?

[Paul Searancke]

A simple answer is that MNZ and ACC are currently working together on signage for the exits of venues used for racing that will remind everyone that "The racings over,Ride Safe,Ride Forever" These will also be used at Road Race venues.

[Katman]

A simple answer is that MNZ and ACC are currently working together on signage for the exits of venues used for racing that will remind everyone that "The racings over,Ride Safe,Ride Forever" These will also be used at Road Race venues.

Well that's a start but......

I believe it needs to be taken to the point of openly condemning the attitude of treating the public road as a racetrack.

[Katman]

Let's be frank - we're not going to get anywhere worth being without treating this issue with total (and probably brutal) self examination.

[Kickaha]

If ACC really want to save money, they should ban helmets. It would drop the long term support costs for the annual crop of alive but brain dead bikers almost to nil.

How many alive but brain dead bikers are there requiring long term hospital care in the current "crop"?


Dont worry Mr."Know it all" Katman has double standarts ...all you hear from him is "bikers who dont obey law are wankers" vs "i like to speed sometimes too"..

Bullshit you do, shows how much attention you pay if you truly think that is what he is saying

[Berries]

Regarding riding gear - I think legislation is the only way really. You are not going to appeal to people to make a grudge purchase. Apart from keeping warmer and drier, why would the people that never ATTGATT ever want to invest in hundreds of dollars of riding gear when they will "never" crash?.
The thread is about reducing the number of bike crashes, something I imagine we all think is a good thing. If you bring ATGATT in to the equation then you are going to lose a large number of safety conscious riders who do not believe in this fatalistic approach to riding. ATGATT has no bearing on crash numbers and your point about people who never ATGATT not investing money in riding gear is, in my experience, incorrect.


Hey, even I enjoy riding my bike at speeds that sometimes exceed the limits. The fact that my license is currently dangling by a thread is testament to that fact. (Having said that, the highest ticketed speed has been for 125kph).

Treating the road as a racetrack however, is a totally different thing and we need to do whatever we can to remove the culture that sees it as acceptable to ride in such a manner.

I nearly fell off my chair when I read the first part. A habitual speeder with his licence dangling by a thread ? No names, but I am sure someone on KB would say that it is exactly that kind of behaviour that will lead to the demise of motorcycling in New Zealand.

To the second part, I wonder how many bike crashes are caused by people racing on the roads ? I deal with crashes on a daily basis and to be honest it is very very rare that I see a bike crash where someone was grossly exceeding the speed limit. Racing on the roads may not go down well with the people who see it but I am not convinced it has much bearing on crashes, certainly nowhere near the level that plain old poor decision making or non defensive riding contribute.

Whatever you think of BRONZ, and I’m not a member nor likely to become one, they probably are in the best position to become a national voice for the riding community. Quite some way off as far as I can tell, but there has to be a national body if there is going to be any traction with suggestions coming from the riders rather than ideas being forced on us.

[Katman]

I nearly fell off my chair when I read the first part. A habitual speeder with his licence dangling by a thread ? No names, but I am sure someone on KB would say that it is exactly that kind of behaviour that will lead to the demise of motorcycling in New Zealand.


I've never laid claim to Angel status.

I can however see a vast difference between 130 kph and 230kph.

[StoneY]

The thread is about reducing the number of bike crashes, something I imagine we all think is a good thing. If you bring ATGATT in to the equation then you are going to lose a large number of safety conscious riders who do not believe in this fatalistic approach to riding. ATGATT has no bearing on crash numbers and your point about people who never ATGATT not investing money in riding gear is, in my experience, incorrect.

Whatever you think of BRONZ, and I’m not a member nor likely to become one, they probably are in the best position to become a national voice for the riding community. Quite some way off as far as I can tell, but there has to be a national body if there is going to be any traction with suggestions coming from the riders rather than ideas being forced on us.

That day is closer than you think... in fact its within 6 months by my estimate
Processes are already being put in place to make this a reality... and resume again this coming Monday when i have a formal meeting with ACC personnel

And while ATGATT cannot reduce crashes it certainly CAN reduce injuries, and therefore is a valid point in this whole debate. Also note, (thread title above) as the thread is actually about a 'new approach' to working WITH ACC and not about 'reducing crashes' ATGATT is extremely relevant

I for one would love to see riding in shorts on any two wheeled vehicle powered by a petrol motor made an offence, as should riding with no gloves on... but I will leave that alone for now.

[Katman]

Also note, (thread title above) as the thread is actually about a 'new approach' to working WITH ACC and not about 'reducing crashes' ATGATT is extremely relevant



I'm amused that you feel you're qualified to decide what this thread's 'about'.

Being the thread starter I can assure you that the underlying intention of this thread is most certainly to explore means of 'reducing crashes'.

[StoneY]

I'm amused that you feel you're qualified to decide what this thread's 'about'.

Being the thread starter I can assure you that the underlying intention of this thread is most certainly to explore means of 'reducing crashes'.

Then title it as such, it reads 'A new approach' not 'lets reduce crashes'

And I am pleased your amused, and as far as being the thread starter so what.
You jump in on enough other threads, and have enough opinions on BRONZ (which does more for bikers in NZ than you will ever achieve by losing your license mr Kettle) but all that aside its a good topic, and I for one am enjoying the debate despite your presence

[yachtie10]

I for one would love to see riding in shorts on any two wheeled vehicle powered by a petrol motor made an offence, as should riding with no gloves on... but I will leave that alone for now.

If this is what you represent you wont be representing me
all we need in this country is more offences to be ticketed for. I could accept it if it was enforced sensibly but as other traffic offenses arnt why would this be?

[Katman]

Then title it as such, it reads 'A new approach' not 'lets reduce crashes'



The idea of reducing motorcycle accidents was included in the very first post.

If you're incapable of understanding plain English I'd question your ability to fulfill your role within BRONZ.

It ranks right up there with Les' inability to interpret statistics.

[yachtie10]

I for one would love to see riding in shorts on any two wheeled vehicle powered by a petrol motor made an offence, as should riding with no gloves on... but I will leave that alone for now.

If this is what you represent you wont be representing me
all we need in this country is more offences to be ticketed for. I could accept it if it was enforced sensibly but as other traffic offences aren't why would this be?

[onearmedbandit]

Hey, even I enjoy riding my bike at speeds that sometimes exceed the limits. The fact that my license is currently dangling by a thread is testament to that fact. (Having said that, the highest ticketed speed has been for 125kph).

Treating the road as a racetrack however, is a totally different thing and we need to do whatever we can to remove the culture that sees it as acceptable to ride in such a manner.

'Exceed the limits' was just a blanket statement intended to show a certain mindset. Whilst I agree with your intent I feel that a lot of your target audience are probably not going to give too much credence to what A Stroud and co have to say. The riders I feel that you are targeting already know they're not quick enough to mix it up with the likes of NZ's leading racers, they don't aspire to be the next Stroud (although after a couple of beers they could 'easily have 'im given the right bike'), nor do they care about what he thinks of their riding.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure just how you'll reach these particular riders.

[Katman]

Unfortunately, I'm not sure just how you'll reach these particular riders.

I think the ad that I'm imagining is perhaps more designed towards the new, impressionable motorcyclists.

If we can bring about a change within that demographic, it may well carry through to a long term and widespread attitude shift.

[StoneY]

If this is what you represent you wont be representing me
all we need in this country is more offences to be ticketed for. I could accept it if it was enforced sensibly but as other traffic offenses arnt why would this be?

Thats MY own point of view onearmed, NOT a BRONZ stance in any way manner or form.... read my post again...as it states its what I would like to see. I am allowed my own opinion too you know, but when I speak for BRONZ in ANY situation its the members agreed point of view thats put out there not MINE, there is a big difference.

Do you know, there are far more skin grafts paid for by ACC than long term head injuries?
Helmet laws have paid off yet years ago we cried "why should I wear one" when now in 2010 no sane riders would go b\areheaded (except Hone of course but sanity is a oxy moron there)

I want (thats ME not BRONZ) to see gloves and decent footwaer a mnimum requirement..... if you dont agree thats your call. Its logical and can save thousands if not millions in medical care over say a decade and therefore justify a reduction in the lec\vy's if we can cost less in medical treatment...... utopian I know but its MY OPINION and I am allowed one

BRONZ makes sure it puts all policies to the members... I dont just make up policies and nor do the other BRONZ leaders

[onearmedbandit]

I think the ad that I'm imagining is perhaps more designed towards the new, impressionable motorcyclists.

If we can bring about a change within that demographic, it may well carry through to a long term and widespread attitude shift.

As I wrote my post I did consider that effect, however we already have a number of ideas focusing on new impressionable riders (not saying that we can't do with more). I don't know if it's just my perception but I notice a lot of new riders have actually got their heads screwed on properly these days. They are (for the most part) buying bikes that suit their skill levels and seeking help, tips and guidance (believe or not but from here, such as advice from the older hands, newbie friendly rides, mentors etc). There are always the exceptions of course, those that think they are the next Rossi, but they seem to be fewer and further inbetween than riders in my age group who still push the limit on the roads.

[onearmedbandit]

I think the ad that I'm imagining is perhaps more designed towards the new, impressionable motorcyclists.

If we can bring about a change within that demographic, it may well carry through to a long term and widespread attitude shift.

As I wrote my post I did consider that effect, however we already have a number of ideas focusing on new impressionable riders (not saying that we can't do with more). I don't know if it's just my perception but I notice a lot of new riders have actually got their heads screwed on properly these days. They are (for the most part) buying bikes that suit their skill levels and seeking help, tips and guidance (believe or not but from here, such as advice from the older hands, newbie friendly rides, mentors etc). There are always the exceptions of course, those that think they are the next Rossi, but they seem to be fewer and further in between than riders in my age group who still push the limit on the roads.

[onearmedbandit]

On that note, being too lazy to search does anyone have stats on motorcyclists deaths per age group (matched against numbers of riders)?

[Katman]

As I wrote my post I did consider that effect, however we already have a number of ideas focusing on new impressionable riders (not saying that we can't do with more). I don't know if it's just my perception but I notice a lot of new riders have actually got their heads screwed on properly these days. They are (for the most part) buying bikes that suit their skill levels and seeking help, tips and guidance (believe or not but from here, such as advice from the older hands, newbie friendly rides, mentors etc). There are always the exceptions of course, those that think they are the next Rossi, but they seem to be fewer and further in between than riders in my age group who still push the limit on the roads.

You may well be right - which just makes it all the more important to quash the glorification of irresponsible riding that is so often grandstanded by experienced motorcyclists on here.

The last thing we need is anyone playing the Pied Piper.

[fossil]

Thats MY own point of view onearmed, NOT a BRONZ stance in any way manner or form.... read my post again...as it states its what I would like to see. I am allowed my own opinion too you know, but when I speak for BRONZ in ANY situation its the members agreed point of view thats put out there not MINE, there is a big difference.

Do you know, there are far more skin grafts paid for by ACC than long term head injuries?
Helmet laws have paid off yet years ago we cried "why should I wear one" when now in 2010 no sane riders would go b\areheaded (except Hone of course but sanity is a oxy moron there)

I want (thats ME not BRONZ) to see gloves and decent footwaer a mnimum requirement..... if you dont agree thats your call. Its logical and can save thousands if not millions in medical care over say a decade and therefore justify a reduction in the lec\vy's if we can cost less in medical treatment...... utopian I know but its MY OPINION and I am allowed one

BRONZ makes sure it puts all policies to the members... I dont just make up policies and nor do the other BRONZ leaders

Which BRONZ is this? Is it Wellington or what? How does the 242 members mentioned in another thread give you the right to say you represent motorcycling? I would think that Uylsses would have well over 10 times that number of members and a true national organisation. Are they on your special panel with ACC?

[onearmedbandit]

You may well be right - which just makes it all the more important to quash the glorification of irresponsible riding that is so often grandstanded by experienced motorcyclists on here.

Is that an achievable goal? Doesn't motorcycling by nature attract extroverts (as well as introverts, I know), people that are attracted by the perceived risk, danger, glamour combination? These riders will always 'grandstand' their endeavors. Not so much on here, for fear of condemnation, but displayed by their riding and bar room chat?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put up obstacles, Just noting that what you want to eradicate is partly what makes motorcycling what it is (until you can stop those riders riding, it will always be a part of motorcycling).

[StoneY]

Well join BRONZ Wellington and get me voted out then, meantime i will keep on doing what I have been doing, because it made far more difference to everyday motorcyclists than your flaming and trolling on KB.

I still get strangers thanking me at bike stands throughout the region for helping reduce the levy increase...how many thanked you this week pal?

As for statistics, did Charles Lamb invite YOU to his presentation in Christchurch?
Are you meeting with ACC officials next week?
Have you organised a single public event or made a single statement on behalf of the motorcycling public to the press?
Hmmmm?

My understanding of English is fine, and if you think you can get on Close Up, Radio NZ, TV3 or get a meeting with the ACC General Manager (and show him to be the liar he is on public TV) then place your name on the committee form. If you can do so much better Katgirl, be my guest take over BRONZ and show us how its done......

I commented on this thread because its a FORUM not because I feel the need to swap insults with some opinionated self contradictory hypocryte who wishes to wax rhetorical about 'what if's' while BRONZ has actually made a huge difference as opposed to throwing stones in my own greenhouse

[Katman]

Is that an achievable goal?

How long's a piece of string?

[MadDuck]

How long's a piece of string?

As long as you want it to be

[Katman]

Well join BRONZ Wellington and get me voted out then, meantime i will keep on doing what I have been doing, because it made far more difference to everyday motorcyclists than your flaming and trolling on KB.

I still get strangers thanking me at bike stands throughout the region for helping reduce the levy increase...how many thanked you this week pal?

As for statistics, did Charles Lamb invite YOU to his presentation in Christchurch?
Are you meeting with ACC officials next week?
Have you organised a single public event or made a single statement on behalf of the motorcycling public to the press?
Hmmmm?

My understanding of English is fine, and if you think you can get on Close Up, Radio NZ, TV3 or get a meeting with the ACC General Manager (and show him to be the liar he is on public TV) then place your name on the committee form. If you can do so much better Katgirl, be my guest take over BRONZ and show us how its done......

I commented on this thread because its a FORUM not because I feel the need to swap insults with some opinionated self contradictory hypocryte who wishes to wax rhetorical about 'what if's' while BRONZ has actually made a huge difference as opposed to throwing stones in my own greenhouse

Your egotism is fucking repulsive.

[onearmedbandit]

What I'm trying to say is, that it's not motorcyclists (in this particular study, ie those that treat the road as a race track) we should be looking at, it's a type of personality. These people would act in the same manner in a car, on a skateboard, pushbike or just as a pedestrian. It's not so much 'how do we change the attitude' but more 'how do we change the personalities'.

To eliminate them we would need to stop them buying bikes. How can we acheive that. Once again I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm honestly trying to weed out who it is that's being targeted, what type of person are they (because we can't blame motorcycles themselves as you would a drug like 'p', otherwise we'd all be out there racing it up) and how you can stop/change them.

[fossil]

Well join BRONZ Wellington and get me voted out then, meantime i will keep on doing what I have been doing, because it made far more difference to everyday motorcyclists than your flaming and trolling on KB.

I still get strangers thanking me at bike stands throughout the region for helping reduce the levy increase...how many thanked you this week pal?

As for statistics, did Charles Lamb invite YOU to his presentation in Christchurch?
Are you meeting with ACC officials next week?
Have you organised a single public event or made a single statement on behalf of the motorcycling public to the press?
Hmmmm?

My understanding of English is fine, and if you think you can get on Close Up, Radio NZ, TV3 or get a meeting with the ACC General Manager (and show him to be the liar he is on public TV) then place your name on the committee form. If you can do so much better Katgirl, be my guest take over BRONZ and show us how its done......

I commented on this thread because its a FORUM not because I feel the need to swap insults with some opinionated self contradictory hypocryte who wishes to wax rhetorical about 'what if's' while BRONZ has actually made a huge difference as opposed to throwing stones in my own greenhouse

Hey StoneY, if you want to progress the rights of motorcycling with the powers that be its not a good idea to call the general manager a liar. In fact its f#@*ing stupid.

[Katman]

To eliminate them we would need to stop them buying bikes. How can we acheive that. Once again I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm honestly trying to weed out who it is that's being targeted, what type of person are they (because we can't blame motorcycles themselves as you would a drug like 'p', otherwise we'd all be out there racing it up) and how you can stop/change them.

I think it comes down to peer pressure.

Just as drink driving has become something that (while admittedly it still exists) is something that is seen as definately running counter to public acceptance, so too could irresponsible riding become seen in a similar light.

[onearmedbandit]

I think it comes down to peer pressure.

Just as drink driving has become something that (while admittedly it still exists) is something that is seen as definately running counter to public acceptance, so could irresponsible riding become seen in a similar light.

I think that already exists, to a degree, as seen in ah certain 'zones' here already. And I see the push moving further still. Not many people would be brave enough to condone irresponsible riding on the road. Well not publicly anyway. There are those of course who will defend it, I described them in a post above.

[Katman]

I think that already exists, to a degree, as seen in ah certain 'zones' here already. And I see the push moving further still. Not many people would be brave enough to condone irresponsible riding on the road. Well not publicly anyway. There are those of course who will defend it, I described them in a post above.

We live in interesting times.

[flyingcrocodile46]

You may well be right - which just makes it all the more important to quash the glorification of irresponsible riding that is so often grandstanded by experienced motorcyclists on here.

The last thing we need is anyone playing the Pied Piper.

Who the fuck is 'we' Tonto? You don't seem to be on anyone's side but your own when it comes to opinions. You seem to want to spend all your efforts swimming against the tide like you are aiming to fail.


The idea of reducing motorcycle accidents was included in the very first post.

If you're incapable of understanding plain English I'd question your ability to fulfill your role within BRONZ.

It ranks right up there with Les' inability to interpret statistics.




Your egotism is fucking repulsive.

Rates with your envy then

[Berries]

I want (thats ME not BRONZ) to see gloves and decent footwaer a mnimum requirement..... if you dont agree thats your call. Its logical and can save thousands if not millions in medical care over say a decade and therefore justify a reduction in the lec\vy's if we can cost less in medical treatment...... utopian I know but its MY OPINION and I am allowed one
My issue with the whole ATGATT thing is what does it actually mean ? I'd go further than you and say a helmet, gloves, decent boots and a decent jacket should be a mininimum requirement. That's my level and when I see people wearing less I think they are idiots. But some of the KB faithful will say you should also have full motorbike trousers. Others will go further and say you should go hi-viz. We all have different views, and I'm sure we all look down at those people who don't adhere to our own standards. But I don't believe in legislating for it. Rider responsibility should come in to it. If you fall off and you aren't protected then tough shit. It will hurt. (And it will cost everyone through ACC, but then I have a fundamental problem with the concept of ACC for road users anyway).


On that note, being too lazy to search does anyone have stats on motorcyclists deaths per age group (matched against numbers of riders)?
First part is easily found, but number of riders ? The MOT knows the number of people with class 6 licences, they even know the number of road bikes registered, but there is no way you can find that out as there is no way anyone can know how many active riders there are.

[onearmedbandit]

First part is easily found, but number of riders ? The MOT knows the number of people with class 6 licences, they even know the number of road bikes registered, but there is no way you can find that out as there is no way anyone can know how many active riders there are.

Yeah I realise this would be hard to establish, the closest you could get would be those that hold a class 6 license with a currently registered motorcycle.

[onearmedbandit]

First part is easily found, but number of riders ? The MOT knows the number of people with class 6 licences, they even know the number of road bikes registered, but there is no way you can find that out as there is no way anyone can know how many active riders there are.

Yeah I realise this would be hard to establish, the closest you could get would be those that hold a class 6 license with a currently registered motorcycle.

[miloking]

Bullshit you do, shows how much attention you pay if you truly think that is what he is saying

Sorry that i offended you and your boyfriend...but how do i have double standarts? I always say live and let live ...its "you" (Katman etc.) and your moral "high horse" condemning people riding bit fast yet you ALL do the same...

[miloking]

Hey StoneY, if you want to progress the rights of motorcycling with the powers that be its not a good idea to call the general manager a liar. In fact its f#@*ing stupid.

Its much better to suck up to him and pretend you are his friend right? Because then he will take pity on you and your "stupid" cause and reduce the levies or something????

Its fucking politics you call a liar ...liar! (even better is to make public realize he is a liar without actualy calling him that...)

thats all there is to it....

[Kickaha]

Sorry that i offended you and your boyfriend...but how do i have double standarts? I always say live and let live ...its "you" (Katman etc.) and your moral "high horse" condemning people riding bit fast yet you ALL do the same...

You haven't offened me in the slightest but could you please point out where I have been "condemning people riding bit fast"?

If you you actually looked at what Katman is saying it is about riding irresponsibly and presenting a bad image to the public not just speed itself

[miloking]

You haven't offened me in the slightest but could you please point out where I have been "condemning people riding bit fast"?

If you you actually looked at what Katman is saying it is about riding irresponsibly and presenting a bad image to the public not just speed itself

Well you are making it sound like what Katman is realy saying, is: ...as long as we have big ad campaign with bunch of bikers holding some kittens/puppies, we can still be "speed demons" and motorcycling is safe.

But iam pretty sure (dont make me go through his posts) many times he called bikers speeding, idiots (and fuckwits, thats his favorite :)) ...(commenting quite "harshly" on Beyonds video of him going bit fast for example)

... yet thats not realy the problem with motorcycling, its the people that crash and people that dont wear their shit when riding needing skin drafts and what not...

(not to mention he likes to speed himself)

...realy to summarise this thread: "Katman doesnt like where motorcycling is going, and while riding the same way as rest of us he is blaming everybody else for it")

[yachtie10]

Well join BRONZ Wellington and get me voted out then, meantime i will keep on doing what I have been doing, because it made far more difference to everyday motorcyclists than your flaming and trolling on KB.

I still get strangers thanking me at bike stands throughout the region for helping reduce the levy increase...how many thanked you this week pal?

As for statistics, did Charles Lamb invite YOU to his presentation in Christchurch?
Are you meeting with ACC officials next week?
Have you organised a single public event or made a single statement on behalf of the motorcycling public to the press?
Hmmmm?

My understanding of English is fine, and if you think you can get on Close Up, Radio NZ, TV3 or get a meeting with the ACC General Manager (and show him to be the liar he is on public TV) then place your name on the committee form. If you can do so much better Katgirl, be my guest take over BRONZ and show us how its done......

I commented on this thread because its a FORUM not because I feel the need to swap insults with some opinionated self contradictory hypocryte who wishes to wax rhetorical about 'what if's' while BRONZ has actually made a huge difference as opposed to throwing stones in my own greenhouse

While I am happy to thank you (and others who are not in the limelight) for your efforts
This post (amongst others) shows you may not be the person that should be representing us

[DEATH_INC.]

What I'm trying to say is, that it's not motorcyclists (in this particular study, ie those that treat the road as a race track) we should be looking at, it's a type of personality.

It's really hard to nail down what it is, I've seen riders of all types over the years (as I'm sure you have too) have accidents, and some complete retards that you would have sworn would have died years ago still going strong without so much as dropping the bike in a driveway. It CAN be as simple as wrong place/wrong time. I still say the best thing we can do is try to minimise injury where it can be. Often fatalities aren't preventable ( in the particular situation that arises) and they're fairly cheap in acc's eyes anyway, but we can try to sort out the farmers/trailies/stunters/harley guys/scooterists/shorts and sneaker wearing sportbike guys etc etc (not all of the above of course, just those that don't wear decent gear) that push the costs through the roof for acc. A simple rule of not wearing the appropriate gear/ no cover may work?

edit: that doesn't read right, I'm not blaming all these groups, just trying to give an example of the sort of people I see that often don't wear enough protective shit.

[MSTRS]

Going back to the topic, I see this as being a two-pronged problem.
Reduce the number of accidents
Reduce the number/severity of injuries

The first can be achieved through ads, training, better licencing practices, peer pressure, heavyhanded policing of riding habits. Others?

The second can be achieved through the wearing of protective gear. How to make this de riguer, I don't know. No-one likes subsidising MrPrat in his shorts, but no-one wants it legislated. I've proposed a sliding scale of cover, dependent on gear worn, in the past (per DeathInc's post above) and I have been thoroughly put in my place on that too. So, if you can't make them wear it, and you can't refuse paying for treatment costs, how do you get anyone to actually wear it? If there is a culture of Rossi-styles amongst sprotbikers, there is definitely one of inadequate gear amongst Harley riders. Is education going to do it?

[mashman]

Your egotism is fucking repulsive.

Why don't you focus on the positives Katman. You wanted a start, an in road into those that make the policies and decisions. Look, i think, mmmmaybe, yes yes there it is a BIG FUCKIN DOOR and you want to get personal? Make your case, submit it to BRONZ. If it doesn't get listened to you can always fling red rep around like you're mowing us down for the dispicable motorcyclists that we are. There's a biker there. One who has been quite open about what he wants, passionate and not afraid to get his point across, in no uncertain terms... i'm guessing he listens to what the rest of the BRONZ team and members have to say (they may well be as passionate in their own way) about these things. You want your magazine Ad, talk to Stoney... he may well laugh in your face, he may well be in a place where he can quickly get in touch with the publishers of mags (i've done it in the past)... give it a go.

There's nothing wrong with celebrating personal achievements Katman.

[Katman]

I'd like to ask of the NZ motorcycle magazines that, if they wish to include photos of bikes wheelstandings in the articles they write whether it might be wise to only show them being performed in a controlled environment - i.e. not on a public road.

It's not my intention to try stamping out wheelstands but I wonder at the message being sent out by the magazines when they blatantly protray less than totally responsible behaviour on public roads.

[MSTRS]

Yea but -
Like Playboy mag, whilst some people buy for the articles...would you want the pics censored?
Playing Devil's Advocate here...

[Katman]

Yea but -
Like Playboy mag, whilst some people buy for the articles...would you want the pics censored?
Playing Devil's Advocate here...

I'm not suggesting censoring.

I'm suggesting performing in a more appropriate location.

[miloking]

If it doesn't get listened to you can always fling red rep around like you're mowing us down for the dispicable motorcyclists that we are.



Haha i got 4 red reps (with some "lovely" insults) from Katman in last month or so...anybody can top that? :D

[Katman]

Haha i got 4 red reps (with some "lovely" insults) from Katman in last month or so...anybody can top that? :D

Don't go thinking you're special or anything.

And yes, I'm sure DB can "top that".

[miloking]

Don't go thinking you're special or anything.

now you are just trying to hurt my feelings :(

No realy, if you want people to take you and your idea seriously...you gotta be much nicer to them, regardless of what you think of them ... ultimately we are all fighting for the same cause!

[mashman]

I'd like to ask of the NZ motorcycle magazines that, if they wish to include photos of bikes wheelstandings in the articles they write whether it might not be wise to only show them being performed in a controlled environment - i.e. not on a public road.

It's not my intention to try stamping out wheelstands but I wonder at the message being sent out by the magazines when they blatantly protray less than totally responsible behaviour on public roads.

Why didn't you just write them a letter and ask the question? Like i've said, i've done it before and had a response...

Having said that, What's Next?

Please Mr Rossi, i'd like you not to pop a celebratory wheelie across the line irrespective of how happy you are, it sends out a bad message?

Dear Microsoft/Sony, i'd rather you didn't produce games that allow for excessive antics, especially those jumpy flippy on the piste antics games...

and for the record i don't mono... well not in the motorcycling sense :)

[mashman]

Haha i got 4 red reps (with some "lovely" insults) from Katman in last month or so...anybody can top that? :D

however i did get a green one from him most recently :)... we're all entitled to our opinion :)

[Katman]

What's Next?

Please Mr Rossi, i'd like you not to pop a celebratory wheelie across the line irrespective of how happy you are, it sends out a bad message?



Once again, comprehension seems to be your weak point.

[mashman]

Once again, comprehension seems to be your weak point.

What then? Stop printing pics in mags?

[MSTRS]

Once again, comprehension seems to be your weak point.

What I am saying is that many people buy such mags for the pictures. The mags supply what their customers want. If customers are happy to have all stunts shown in safe venues, then no problem. Mind you, everyone knows that wheelies on the road are illegal, so there would be very few monkey see-monkey-do...

[Maha]

It takes me about 8 minutes to ''read'' a bike mag from cover to cover, and I have never taken a bike mag to the toilet nor do I need tissues when ''reading''. :shifty:

[fossil]

Its much better to suck up to him and pretend you are his friend right? Because then he will take pity on you and your "stupid" cause and reduce the levies or something????

Its fucking politics you call a liar ...liar! (even better is to make public realize he is a liar without actualy calling him that...)

thats all there is to it....

If you want them to respect your ideas you need to show some respect to those who have control, its called common sense. Or you could act like a righteous f#@kwit and alienate the people we need to get to recognise our point of view.
You choose which one will be more effective.

[fossil]

If you want them to respect your ideas you need to show some respect to those who have control, its called common sense. Or you could act like a righteous f#@kwit and alienate the people we need to get to recognise our point of view.
You choose which one will be more effective.

Its not a trick question.

[miloking]

If you want them to respect your ideas you need to show some respect to those who have control, its called common sense. Or you could act like a righteous f#@kwit and alienate the people we need to get to recognise our point of view.
You choose which one will be more effective.

Yes i know its not a trick question, and i agree that you should treat people you need with respect...but what if they realy dont deserve it and are going to fuck you over anyway? (like ACC did)
...saying this just as an example maybe general manager of ACC isnt actualy a liar...its just those accident stats presented didnt seem quite right...

[Katman]

What then? Stop printing pics in mags?

http://neoncstar.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/facepalm2ic7copyrl2-jpg.jpeg

[mashman]

http://neoncstar.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/facepalm2ic7copyrl2-jpg.jpeg

If you're not going to EXPLAIN when people ask for clarification purposes, then how do you expect people to comprehend?

[carver]

i think we should try and have more accidents

perhaps try and bankrupt ACC to get back at them!

A big protest bin ride, 300+ bikes in huge pileup!

[Katman]

If you're not going to EXPLAIN when people ask for clarification purposes, then how do you expect people to comprehend?


I'd like to ask of the NZ motorcycle magazines that, if they wish to include photos of bikes wheelstandings in the articles they write whether it might be wise to only show them being performed in a controlled environment - i.e. not on a public road.

It's not my intention to try stamping out wheelstands but I wonder at the message being sent out by the magazines when they blatantly protray less than totally responsible behaviour on public roads.

There are two key words in my post above.

See if you can work out which ones they are.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I'm not suggesting censoring.

I'm suggesting performing in a more appropriate location.


To be entirely honest I'm f**king sick of all the PC shit that has been shoveled on and stifles our everyday lives, without any more be heaped on.

Well intentioned though these ideas are they suck arse. Pretty soon we will all be too fucking scared to get out of bed for fear of offending someone or making a bad example because we forgot to reduce the risk of exposure to a common cold because we didn't put our clothes on before we got out of bed. You only need to see what has happened to kids out-wood bound learning environments as a result of all the PC OSH shit. 1 foot high rope bridges and the like:sick:

I say fuck off with all your PC crap and let us live our lives the way we want to. If people keep trying to limit my life experiences I might one day get fed up and decide to limit their fucking lives out of sheer frustration. Seriously, someone will crack and it may happen.

[Katman]

Actually, asking bike magazines to consider the way they portray motorcycling is no different to the way that fashion magazines are now being asked to consider the impact they have had on womens health through their use of near anorexic models.

[Fatt Max]

Actually, asking bike magazines to consider the way they portray motorcycling is no different to the way that fashion magazines are now being asked to consider the impact they have had on womens health through their use of near anorexic models.

Yeah, and them skinny little slappers in no way flick my switch. Have a pie love, gat a few beers down ya, full cream milk and sugar, then you will look happy and lay off the skag.

Put big fat pie eating chicks in bike mags, now that would be the ultimate.....

[davereid]

I say fuck off with all your PC crap and let us live our lives the way we want to. If people keep trying to limit my life experiences I might one day get fed up and decide to limit their fucking lives out of sheer frustration.

Ye fucking ha, some common sense in this.

I am also truly sick and tired of being told "wear a condom, wear a helmet, wear ATTGAT". Thank christ I don't listen, and I still cheerfully tootle around ignoring all the rules made for me by helpful bastards.

I don't care that the helpful bastards have to pay for my accidents. Because I didn't ask them to.

ACC and the welfare state was pushed down my throat. And at every turn, its used as a whining way to make me safer, nicer, more respectable and a better citizen.

Rock on summer, so I can putt down the long country road I live on, in jeans and a T shirt, helmet-less, enjoying the smells and sights of the country, enjoying my life, my way.

[MSTRS]

To be honest, FM, Rubenesque types are too thin for you, are they not? Yet there's some like a tinkle on the old rib-piano...
Like ideas to cut back our ACC problems, you can't please everyone.

[Ocean1]

To be entirely honest I'm f**king sick of all the PC shit


I am also truly sick and tired of being told

Ah yes, thank you gentlemen.

My work here is done.

[Katman]

Ah yes, thank you gentlemen.

My work here is done.

Here's a question for you and your two ostrich mates..........

If motorcycling continues to be noticed solely for it's nuisance value by the powers that be, and more and more legislation is introduced to curtail your motorcycling freedom (far more so than this thread ever will), at what point would you suddenly sit back and think "shit, maybe we should have done something about this sooner"?

The funny thing is that the purpose of this thread is to try and avoid the very thing you all are so vehemently opposed to happening.

[rastuscat]

Are you suggesting that no-one buys motorcycle magazines?

I'm sure the stats are somewhere, but I think that motorcycle mags are read by less than 20% of the motorcycle riders in NZ.

Only my estimate, and based on the fact that only one of the motorcycle guys I know actually buys mags.

[miloking]

I'm sure the stats are somewhere, but I think that motorcycle mags are read by less than 20% of the motorcycle riders in NZ.

Only my estimate, and based on the fact that only one of the motorcycle guys I know actually buys mags.

i would believe it....kind of like 80% porn mags are purchased by guys with no girlfriends :D

[Katman]

I'm sure the stats are somewhere, but I think that motorcycle mags are read by less than 20% of the motorcycle riders in NZ.

Only my estimate, and based on the fact that only one of the motorcycle guys I know actually buys mags.

As I said earlier, I'm not suggesting that ads in motorcycle magazines should be the only idea we should explore.