The ACC saga - a new approach.

[Katman]

How about improving or increasing the number of training courses and having a financial incentive to go on them – seeing as the end result should be a saving to the ACC. And if you have been charged in relation to a crash then there should be some compulsion to go on a course before you are allowed your licence back. Hard to enforce, but aim the training at the people who need it, not at everyone just because they ride a bike. Otherwise you will divide the biking community, if there is such a thing, which is the opposite of what is needed.


I agree.

Toughening up the learner stages of the licensing process and offering a financial incentive for more experienced riders to brush up on their skills should be all that's needed to address the lack of/ability issue.

Achieving a widespread change in attitude is likely to be a whole lot tougher.

[Berries]

Achieving a widespread change in attitude is likely to be a whole lot tougher.
I'd say impossible. People ride for their own reasons and what other people think doesn't really come in to it. Well, that's the case for me anyway.

[Katman]

I'd say impossible. People ride for their own reasons and what other people think doesn't really come in to it. Well, that's the case for me anyway.

I'd suggest that there's been a widespread change in attitude towards drink driving.

I can't see why something similar couldn't be achieved in motorcycling.

[R-Soul]

I'll bleat first then because I have to disagree with that. All the stats show are the lack of skills from the people involved in crashes, which is a minority of riders. It does not necessarily indicate a lack of skills across the board.

You are assuming that nobody can ride by saying training should be compulsory for everyone. That will probably be seen as a bit much by those people who have been riding for years, have done all the courses and have never had an off. I for one do not want to do a course. Oh I am sure we could all learn something, but to be made to go on a course because other people crash their bikes ? How’s that work then ? Maybe I should go on a fire safety course as well because a house down the street burnt down recently…….

How about improving or increasing the number of training courses and having a financial incentive to go on them – seeing as the end result should be a saving to the ACC. And if you have been charged in relation to a crash then there should be some compulsion to go on a course before you are allowed your licence back. Hard to enforce, but aim the training at the people who need it, not at everyone just because they ride a bike. Otherwise you will divide the biking community, if there is such a thing, which is the opposite of what is needed.


I diod say that our skills ON AVERAGE were bad.

What you have said there is exactly what I said below.

BUT: the kind of people that buy bikes, and then dont bother to take time out to learn how to control them but ride them at speed anyway (i.e the idiot types - like I was when younger) may STILL not feel like they NEED to attend such courses. "too much hassle, I am a good rider anwyay, dont have time, etc" - same excuses apply.

Who knows, who is to say that you are perhaps not a bad rider that think he is a good rider? How do you know without having some sort of objective evaluation? The fact that you have ridden for years without an off, is indicative, but not neccessarily proof of it. It may just have been blind luck?

I am not trying to be offensive- I am just trying to get the point across saying that most riders just dont have any evaluation process, or test of serious skills. If you dont have some doubts or believe that your riding can be improved, then you probably have the wrong attitude.

And good track skills may not necessarily relate to good road skills (for eg if the rider is aggressive and non-defensive, but can corner with knee down). Because good road skills are also about a defensive riding attitude - something that can only be ingrained in us by training and re-training.

[dipshit]

Who knows, who is to say that you are perhaps not a bad rider that think he is a good rider? How do you know without having some sort of objective evaluation? The fact that you have ridden for years without an off, is indicative, but not neccessarily proof of it. It may just have been blind luck?

This reminds me of that 'Ride for Ever' DVD ( http://www.rideforever.co.nz ) that was getting around a while ago. The 3 riders all rated themselves as pretty good, above-average etc, but analysing footage of their riding still showed them to have some bad habits and were all doing stupid things.



I am not trying to be offensive- I am just trying to get the point across saying that most riders just dont have any evaluation process, or test of serious skills. If you dont have some doubts or believe that your riding can be improved, then you probably have the wrong attitude.

That is a very relevant point. Being your own worst critic and having the ability to view yourself from the perspective of other road users goes a long way.

This is why I believe that even motorcyclists losing the attitude that most motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers and our shit doesn't stink, is in itself something that may reduce the number of motorcyclists having accidents. A rider is more likely to look at their own riding behaviour/habits instead of thinking the problem doesn't lie with themselves.

[Berries]

Who knows, who is to say that you are perhaps not a bad rider that think he is a good rider? How do you know without having some sort of objective evaluation? The fact that you have ridden for years without an off, is indicative, but not neccessarily proof of it. It may just have been blind luck?
You are probably right. I was young once and did quite a few things I wouldn't contemplate now, and lost a few friends on the way. Age and responsibility has slowed me down, but probably not as much as some would like. Was trying hard not to write that post and come across as a big headed know it all twat. I do my best to keep out of trouble, but am very aware that by getting my kicks on a bike I may run out of road (or luck) at some point.


I am not trying to be offensive- I am just trying to get the point across saying that most riders just dont have any evaluation process, or test of serious skills. If you dont have some doubts or believe that your riding can be improved, then you probably have the wrong attitude.
Not sure that it correlates with having the wrong attitude, but then it's my attitude that makes me say that, which is probably the wrong type.


And good track skills may not necessarily relate to good road skills (for eg if the rider is aggressive and non-defensive, but can corner with knee down). Because good road skills are also about a defensive riding attitude - something that can only be ingrained in us by training and re-training.
Agree, defensive riding is the key to it all, together with hazard perception. I would recommend everyone do an advanced driving or riding course. I've only been on a track once, test riding an FZR600 at Manfeild. All that did was make me ride like a maniac back to Wellington. Some track skills are no doubt transferable, but you have to learn on the road to cope with all the things you don't get on a track, because they'll be the ones to get you. My only issue is with regular training and re-training, but perhaps that is because of the industry I am in and the fact that the results of a crash are often forefront in my mind. This does tend to make you ride defensively.


This is why I believe that even motorcyclists losing the attitude that most motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers and our shit doesn't stink, is in itself something that may reduce the number of motorcyclists having accidents. A rider is more likely to look at their own riding behaviour/habits instead of thinking the problem doesn't lie with themselves.
Couldn't agree more.

[DEVVIL]

I'd suggest that there's been a widespread change in attitude towards drink driving.

I can't see why something similar couldn't be achieved in motorcycling.

Call it BADD

[Berries]

Get Rouge Rider to start a poll. That'll sort it.

[Katman]

Get Rouge Rider to start a poll. That'll sort it.

If not, at least it will give him a rosy complexion.

[caseye]

If not, at least it will give him a rosy complexion.

I've heard tell that he's a bit of a rogue actually! LOl. Butt seriously, motorists( all of em) need to own thier limitations and do something about them.
I note that of the eight people appointed to the ACC's ring funded expenditure board 7 are Riders, that has to be a good start.

[lone_slayer]

I own 2 cars and a motorcycle I therfore pay 3 lots of ACC on registration and of course ACC as part of the fuel Taxes So because I own 3 Registerd vehicles I MUST be 3 Times more likely to have an Accident Requiring ACC treatment especialy since somehow I can magically drive/ride all of my vehicles at the same time.
I have to also say that very few motorcyclsts only have a motorcycle So most riders are atleast paying ACC twice. I also would like to note that there are alot of off road bikes with no registration therfore dont pay ACC but still will receive ACC if needed

Quite simply ACC should be Driver orientated or fuel orientated

[Mom]

I own 2 cars and a motorcycle I therfore pay 3 lots of ACC on registration and of course ACC as part of the fuel Taxes So because I own 3 Registerd vehicles I MUST be 3 Times more likely to have an Accident Requiring ACC treatment especialy since somehow I can magically drive/ride all of my vehicles at the same time.
I have to also say that very few motorcyclsts only have a motorcycle So most riders are atleast paying ACC twice. I also would like to note that there are alot of off road bikes with no registration therfore dont pay ACC but still will receive ACC if needed

Quite simply ACC should be Driver orientated or fuel orientated

You are not alone in that thinking. Come and have a look at what MAG-NZ have to say about that.

[caseye]

You are not alone in that thinking. Come and have a look at what MAG-NZ have to say about that.

Jeez ya think Katman will mind if we Hi Jack his thread?
Go on mate ,go have a look, then join up and help us do! something about it.