The welfare state

[jrandom]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5103393/Baby-turns-one-so-get-to-work-mum

These news reports regarding details of the welfare proposals are ongoing; this is just an example.

How many of you know a single mum on the DPB?

Would she genuinely be prepared to work at a real job? A boring one? Like most people do?

I'm thinking of my ex-wife, here, who has a permanent horror of getting out of bed and going to work in the morning, and will be forced to substantially change her approach to life if any of these suggestions solidify as legislation.

Which I would approve of. It'd be nice if the child support I pay didn't just go straight to the Gubmint to cover her benefit. I gave up trying to convince her to get a job myself years ago.

There may be an unemployment crisis (depends what you call a crisis - the USA's in far worse shape at the moment), but it's not entirely divorced from the attitude of the workforce. I know I've been employed by a company previously and thereby allowed them to expand their business. Jobs are not static; The Economy (tm) and the workforce influence each other on a fundamental level. The creation of wealth is not a zero-sum game.

Keen workers make for a rich country. I say give the lower classes a kick up the arse.

Not keen on the idea of compulsory contraception, though. By all means restrict the handouts and let people go hungry if they're lazy or stupid, but the idea of forcing the poor not to breed makes my gun hand start twitching.

<img src="http://www.freewebs.com/myguncollection/Pistols/charltonheston1%5B1%5D.jpg"/>

[racefactory]

Problem is you can't even get 'boring jobs' even if you wanted to. There are literally hundreds lining up, clawing for the shittiest of cafe assistants and the supermarkets are all not hiring now. You will need a 'pre Mcdonalds foundation degree' from tertiary institutions to get your 'career' started with the big M soon (20 grand student loan) as it's the only thing that continues to grow; except like a cancer in this case. It's easy to say that at the bludgers but it is really not that simple now. Just imagine if all those who have long ago stopped looking for work, off the unemployment sheet statistics, suddenly started looking. It would be total mayhem.

I approve of the contraception entirely. Last thing we want is unwanted babies raping the country for future generations to deal with. Most politics don't really help anything because there is only incentive to deal directly with current issues, but this is something that will truly benefit the country for the future.

[jrandom]

Problem is you can't even get 'boring jobs' even if you wanted to. There are literally hundreds lining up, clawing for the shittiest of cafe assistants and the supermarkets are all not hiring now.

I know that's the line spouted by lefty politicians and dole bludgers, but that simply hasn't been my experience.

Two and a half years ago I shut down Visual Studio for the last time, walked blinking into the sunshine, and decided to go on a sort of Razor's Edge quest for my working-class roots.

The only qualifications I've had to offer anyone since then are being reasonably fit and strong, not too lazy or stupid, and speaking English.

The longest period I've been unemployed for is three and a half days.

[short-circuit]

That's a troll thread fail....

You should be very much ashamed of yourself - your previous work was much more praiseworthy:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/137255-You-should-all-be-ashamed-of-yourselves

[jrandom]

That's a troll thread fail...

This isn't a troll, dude. Not trying to wind anyone up, just wondering what folks think on the question. I feel like I have some useful insight on it from the experiment I'm living at the moment.

[ajturbo]

Dam it.. i agree with ya....

your a cock in so many ways....

BUT i agree... the longest time that i have not had a job is 5 days.....(that is when i wanted a job that is)

There have been a few weeks where I couldn't be bothered working and
1 year on DPB... but even then I got a job....!!!!!!

I think that ALL people on DPB should be made to work OR made to do some sort of training around 12-18 months after birth...Hell, I'm not talking about a an 8 hr day, more like 4-12 hrs. a week then building up until the rugrat is 5 and starting school, then they could do at lest 4 hrs. work/training a day

[short-circuit]

This isn't a troll, dude. Not trying to wind anyone up, just wondering what folks think on the question. I feel like I have some useful insight on it from the experiment I'm living at the moment.

You've been in and around this site for long enough to know that it's inhabitants are generally the kind of selfish, short sighted drones that have been duped by the prevailing neo conservative / neo liberal rhetoric

...that's why they all congregate here - to have their looney introjected drone programming confirmed and revalidated by other drones on a daily basis.

[jrandom]

that's why they all congregate here - to have their looney introjected drone programming confirmed

I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way...

[ynot slow]

Ok as someone whose been there done that,well paying child support while ex wife was on DPB.My child support enabled the 3 to go to Brisbane for a nice holiday(albeit ex was working),sure when she decided it was over(and I changed bank accounts)she went on benefit but still sort part time work.

I went from working to not for 9 months with cancer,went on sickness then invalids for that,then my boss said I could return when ready part time,so I was able for 26wks get paid by him and winz,although working for 15hour initially my rate from boss was $2hour after deductions(unlike what my case manager told me),but got me match fit so to speak,then another company grabbed me full time,as my old boss wanted doctors notes etc stating I wasn't a liability osh wise for full time work,although I did do an 8hr day when it suited him.Mostly when I did work it was for nothing as my benefit reduced,was ok if working say 5hrs only.

[nosebleed]

You've been in and around this site for long enough to know that it's inhabitants are generally the kind of selfish, short sighted drones that have been duped by the prevailing neo conservative / neo liberal rhetoric

...that's why they all congregate here - to have their looney introjected drone programming confirmed and revalidated by other drones on a daily basis.

Piss off. 9:45 on a bank holiday! use real words man, like Cunt and Fucktard, shit we can read and digest.

[marty]

if there's no jobs, how come my son and EVERY one of his mates who are at uni or working full time, have jobs of at least 30hrs week? 2 of his <20yr old flatmates have full time work - 1 in IT the other at the airport, and the other 3 (at uni) good solid 30hr part time work

[Mully]

I know that's the line spouted by lefty politicians and dole bludgers, but that simply hasn't been my experience.

Bingo. Plenty of shit, minimum wage rubbish jobs out there if you want them. You gotta do what you gotta do. Apart from a student allowance, I've never taken any form of State handout even working $7/hour jobs, trying to pay rent, etc.

For some reason, people have a sense of entitlement and refuse to consider a job that they believe is "beneath" - one of the reasons (IMHO) that we now have 2 and 3 generations of families that have never worked.

Compulsory contraception worries me, but as a rule, anything that Bradford doesn't like, I'm in favour of.

[SpankMe]

The only qualifications I've had to offer anyone since then are being reasonably fit and strong, not too lazy or stupid, and speaking English.

My missus doesn't speak English that well and she still managed to find herself a job, so no excuse for the lazy arsed dole bludgers then.

[FJRider]

For some reason, people have a sense of entitlement and refuse to consider a job that they believe is "beneath" - one of the reasons (IMHO) that we now have 2 and 3 generations of families that have never worked.



Threre are a few that literally wont get out of bed for a $13.00 an hour job ... and just stay on the benefit ...

[jrandom]

Threre are a few that literally wont get out of bed for a $13.00 an hour job ... and just stay on the benefit ...

You do a hell of a lot better working 40 hours a week at $13/hour than you do on the dole. About twice as much cash in the hand. In fact, assuming no debts, a single individual can live in comfort working full time on minimum wage.

I personally can't fathom how people manage to stay at home unemployed for more than a few days straight. My brain would asplode.

You'd pretty much have to rely on being continually stoned just to stay sane.

[Mully]

Threre are a few that literally wont get out of bed for a $13.00 an hour job ... and just stay on the benefit ...

Exactly - but then working is so much more than just money - it's the accomplishment, setting an example to children, etc.....



I personally can't fathom how people manage to stay at home unemployed for more than a few days straight. My brain would asplode.

You'd pretty much have to rely on being continually stoned just to stay sane.

Asked and answered, you Honour....

[rainman]

The longest period I've been unemployed for is three and a half days.


Bingo. Plenty of shit, minimum wage rubbish jobs out there if you want them.
... refuse to consider a job that they believe is "beneath"

Interesting. I'm plenty busy at the moment but about a year ago had nothing. Must have applied for thousands of jobs, at all levels - at the risk of sounding like John Banks I do appreciate the dignity of work (and the security of income) and absolutely don't think anything's beneath me - but I got nothing. Tried stuff in my industry as well as out, local retail, everything - "sorry not hiring". I literally begged recruiters to put me forward for anything however menial, but they just wouldn't. I called and mailed heaps of places and almost never even got a reply. The only reason I got the gig I did, in the end, was through being in the right place at the right time, and having a friend put in a good word with the hiring manager. Was out of work for months, though

Others I know personally, with the same keen-to-work attitude, had the same experience (although we're all employed now, even if we're all contractor/casual types). Maybe it's because we're foreign? NZ is a wee bit insular, y'know...

[FJRider]

Exactly - but then working is so much more than just money - it's the accomplishment, setting an example to children, etc.....


I thought it was "building a life" ... I guess it's pretty much the same thing though ...

The firm I work for employs casuals now and then ... one guy has four kids ... and gets MORE money on the benefit ... than I earn on a 40 hour week ...

[Mully]

Maybe it's because we're foreign? NZ is a wee bit insular, y'know...

Could be that, I suppose. 100 applicants and 5 are "Kiwis" - maybe you can afford to discriminate a bit.... Even subconsiously....

[jrandom]

one guy has four kids ... and gets MORE money on the benefit ... than I earn on a 40 hour week ...

Yes, but he has four kids.

You're way better off.

[jrandom]

Must have applied for thousands of jobs...

Really?

Did you go into WINZ and check their job listing service? It's a pretty good place to find casual / contract / low-wage work.

The job I'm in at the moment I found through the local acquaintances grapevine, but if it hadn't materialised, I would've been in another one 48 hours later that'd been listed with WINZ.

It was originally intended for a school leaver type, but trust me, you walk into WINZ and say "what jobs do you have going, I'll do anything", they all perk up amazingly, and the employers can't believe their luck to have an actual human being wanting to work for them instead of some knuckle-dragging 18 year old.

Insulation installation actually pays quite well.

[FJRider]

... but trust me, you walk into WINZ and say "what jobs do you have going, I'll do anything", they all perk up amazingly, and the employers can't believe their luck to have an actual human being wanting to work for them instead of some knuckle-dragging 18 year old.



The number of 18 year olds that want to work ... only want enough work to buy a new video game (and some more smokes) ... then wont show up for work untill they get sick of it (or run out of smokes)...

[Mully]

It was originally intended for a school leaver type, but trust me, you walk into WINZ and say "what jobs do you have going, I'll do anything", they all perk up amazingly, and the employers can't believe their luck to have an actual human being wanting to work for them instead of some knuckle-dragging 18 year old.

Heh - it amazes them that anyone that goes to see them wants a job at all.

True story: A million years ago, I basically told told I was being made redundant from my $7/hour gas station job.

That afternoon, I went into the local (Henderson) WINZ (or whatever it was called at the time) office and looked at their job boards.

The "helpful" "lady" on the desk said I had to register with one of their CSA (again, whatever they were called) which I duly did then started looking at the boards again.

Found one I wanted to apply for and had to speak to someone else. He couldn't find me in the system because he reckoned my details hadn't been entered. Asked when I'd registered and I said "About 10 minutes ago". He told me that he'd never had someone register with them and then actually start applying for jobs straight away.

Presumably, they just figured I was signing up to get the dole.

[rainman]

Really?

Did you go into WINZ and check their job listing service?

Yeah, really. WINZ told me I had a brain so I should go to Australia.

Really.

[Ender EnZed]

if there's no jobs, how come my son and EVERY one of his mates who are at uni or working full time, have jobs of at least 30hrs week? 2 of his <20yr old flatmates have full time work - 1 in IT the other at the airport, and the other 3 (at uni) good solid 30hr part time work

Who would you hire: someone similar to one of your son's mates or a single mum on the DPB?

[mashman]

My wife was recently applying for secretarial jobs and can't get one. Is it because she's Scottish? Is it because she has 3 children? Is it because she has been out of the workforce for 8 years? Is it because, as the agencies and employers noted, she was one of hundreds of applicants etc...?

There aren't enough jobs to go around, plain and simple... and those jobs that are left aren't worth doing because you can earn "almost" as much doing nothing, and with your nothing time you could always be doing something to top up what you do receive... a roof over your head, rent being paid etc... yeah, I can see the downsides to such a life :blink:.

Forcing people to work or to take contraception, waaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaa... it seems that the one decision you aren't allowed to make in this life is wether to work or not. It's my time, i'll do what the fuck I want with it.

As for "Seven ministers are looking at the WGG's report, which aims to get 100,000 people off welfare by 2021 by making more people work."... during those 10 years, how many others will have moved onto welfare? FOOLS!

[mashman]

You do a hell of a lot better working 40 hours a week at $13/hour than you do on the dole. About twice as much cash in the hand. In fact, assuming no debts, a single individual can live in comfort working full time on minimum wage.

I personally can't fathom how people manage to stay at home unemployed for more than a few days straight. My brain would asplode.

You'd pretty much have to rely on being continually stoned just to stay sane.

And what about after tax? You do pay tax don't you :shifty:... not every job is a cashie.

:rofl: they stay at home all day :blink:... getting stoned :blink: :blink:... they probably play games consoles, computers, read educational porn material etc...

By your own admission you've never lived the lifestyle... I lived in amongst it in Glasgow for 6 years whilst trying to improve my lot... fascinating people with a plethora of money making schemes handed down through generations... sometimes I wish I had taken a different path :yes:

[marty]

Who would you hire: someone similar to one of your son's mates or a single mum on the DPB?

Someone who was keen to work and turned up (sober) when they were supposed to?

[MSTRS]

There aren't enough jobs to go around, plain and simple...

And there you have it in a nutshell.

[SMOKEU]

Finding a job isn't that easy. I've been on the dole since last December and I've applied for well over 100 jobs. I've had 1 interview and the only reason I didn't get the job is because I'm not qualified to do it.

I used to go into Winz every week and apply for at least 5 jobs every time I went in, I've been around to quite a few shops and handed my CV in, I've been on Trademe and Seek to apply for jobs and still haven't managed to score some work.

The thing is that finding work just isn't that easy unless you're qualified for that particular job. I can't even get a job scrubbing toilets in a cheap motel because I don't have any previous cleaning jobs on my CV.

[Katman]

What appals me most is the frequency with which I see the dead beats wandering home on any morning of the week, 5 minutes after the bottle store opens, with a dozen piss in their hands.

They're probably walking the long way home too. Not for the exercise though but rather because the tinnie house is inconveniently located the next block over.

[racefactory]

Finding a job isn't that easy. I've been on the dole since last December and I've applied for well over 100 jobs. I've had 1 interview and the only reason I didn't get the job is because I'm not qualified to do it.

I used to go into Winz every week and apply for at least 5 jobs every time I went in, I've been around to quite a few shops and handed my CV in, I've been on Trademe and Seek to apply for jobs and still haven't managed to score some work.

The thing is that finding work just isn't that easy unless you're qualified for that particular job. I can't even get a job scrubbing toilets in a cheap motel because I don't have any previous cleaning jobs on my CV.

You'll need an applied certificate in toilet cleaning to have any hope of scoring something like that before too long. I shit you not, Mcdonalds will be the biggest employer soon and you'll need a bachelor to get in those golden arches. And since they won't even want to pay you any more in order to maintain profits, your paycheque will be in the form of big macs I daresay. Top job security though!

It's never going to be easier to find employment than now though so just keep that in mind and press on. Grim times ahead...

[rainman]

The Dim Post gets to the real issue...

http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2011/06/06/the-quintessential-national-policy/

[Woodman]

ok then so why are there heaps of cashed up Islanders here spending up large before they go home after fruit picking? :bye:

Now I remember they earned the money from working.:gob:

[marty]

Finding a job isn't that easy. I've been on the dole since last December and I've applied for well over 100 jobs. I've had 1 interview and the only reason I didn't get the job is because I'm not qualified to do it.

I used to go into Winz every week and apply for at least 5 jobs every time I went in, I've been around to quite a few shops and handed my CV in, I've been on Trademe and Seek to apply for jobs and still haven't managed to score some work.

The thing is that finding work just isn't that easy unless you're qualified for that particular job. I can't even get a job scrubbing toilets in a cheap motel because I don't have any previous cleaning jobs on my CV.

Just what qualifications DO you have?

And how is it that Starbucks in Hamilton, the BP in Cambridge and the Shell in Angelsea St have 'staff wanted apply within' posters in the windows? And Coke cars drive around with 'Coke careers apply here' stickers on the back window? 2 kids I know work part time 30 hour weeks on $18/hr doing Coke stuff after taking some initiative..

Fieldays are looking for staff, Montana Catering are ALWAYS looking for staff - my son picked up 3 days selling programs at the V8's, and on his days off, does Beer tasting at supermarkets (not exactly a tough job!). Doesn't get paid $$ for that, but does get a couple of boxes of nice Euro lager for his troubles.

One thing, you will need a haircut, and be prepared to work some shit hours. Unless you can handle that, there'll be no whinging.

[rustyrobot]

You'll need an applied certificate in toilet cleaning to have any hope of scoring something like that before too long. I shit you not, Mcdonalds will be the biggest employer soon and you'll need a bachelor to get in those golden arches.

Yeah, the kicker is - you probably CAN get a qualification like that, although it'll take you 6 months. Friend of mine came off student loan at the end of last year, (had to borrow to supplement his part-time job cleaning a book store), went into Work & Income and they tried to put him on a 6 month retail course. 6 months?! How hard is it to open a cash register and use the eftpos machine?

The course is 'free' = paid for by the tax payer, and there are one of these courses for everything (hospo, cleaning, call centres, etc). But -if you come off of some serious/professional study you have to compete with someone who has just done a 6 month McJob course.

"I have a science degree, I just need this job to fill in until I can find a proper job", then it's: "Sorry mate, you don't have a retail qualification, and you'll leave too soon".

When I moved down here at the end of the year I had saved $5000 to pay rent, groceries, etc. while I looked for a decent job. Ended up very close to the line, and had to go to work and income for accommodation supplement - they treated me like a piece of shit. Went in one day and the woman I was dealing with was wearing old trackpants and a grubby hoody - and was trying to give me employment advice. Honestly I've never been treated ruder - they have a lousy attitude and I reckon they only end up working at WINZ because no one else would employ them.

I personally reckon you should be careful about what job you take. If I was in a corner, of course I would do whatever - but you will be judged by your current job when you apply for a new one. (I know, because I work in recruitment and I see it all the time). "Oh yeah, she has a xxxxxx degree - but why is she working there?! next."

[SMOKEU]

Just what qualifications DO you have?


Nothing at all.

[pete376403]

Seing as a large part of the thread is bashing single parents - what would you suggest they do with the children while they are out earning the minimum wage?
After the child care is paid for what would you suggest the family use to purchase food, let alone pay rent?
My daughter is in a solo parent situation, she WANTS to work - she has reasonable qualifications, has applied for literally hundreds of jobs, from KFC and up. Daycare for the twins will cost more than she can earn, I subsidise a large part of her costs, rent sucks up most of the benefit (which is not all that flash).
The childrens father buggered off shortly after the kids were born. He is probably paying money to IRD, but it's not really helping her.

[Oblivion]

Thats the thing that I find confusing actually. Employers are looking for people that they can get to work straight away, have necessary experience to do the job well, and quickly. Yet, that particular job may be open for months, with tons of applications by University graduates, but they all get turned down because they have no prior experience, and the employer doesn't want to waste valuable $$ to train up a new guy.

Thats why McDonalds are such a good entry level jobs for most people. They train you regardless of whether you have any experience or not. And yet we have the lazy fucktards who want to stay on the benefit for easy money. They dont apply for jobs, and just sit there for years when they are perfectly able to get a job if they got of their lazy asses.

If we managed to get in a Welfare system, where the $$ you get on a benefit decreases each year, unless you can provide sufficient evidence where

1) There is proof that you are applying for a job. You list all the places where you have applied, and the WINZ rings those people to see if an application was indeed put forward. (Make it so businesses are required to keep evidence of all applications made)

2) The money that you get is only barely sufficient to maintain the most minimal yet comfortable lifestyle. (Eg Beneficiaries with children.)

3) You are in a state where you are unable to work, and this has been checked and certified by a medical professional.

As of now, there is no effort being made to weed out the scammers from the system. As soon as we can, we should be alot better off.

[rustyrobot]

what would you suggest they do with the children while they are out earning the minimum wage?

Put them in baby farms run by other people who are also being paid minimum wage. I'm sure there will be no social side-effects later down the line. :facepalm:

[marty]

Nothing at all.

What did Countdown/Pak n Save say?

[Sable]

I got an Indian ex-telemarketer selected over me for a job at Bunnings despite my having more experience and him only being able to name half the tools and shit because he was mouthier. All the people saying the dole is comfortable and should be cut etc should go and put their money where their mouth is: Try living on less than $200 a week assholes. It's almost impossible to do anything other than exist.

[The Stranger]

Interesting. I'm plenty busy at the moment but about a year ago had nothing. Must have applied for thousands of jobs, at all levels - at the risk of sounding like John Banks I do appreciate the dignity of work (and the security of income) and absolutely don't think anything's beneath me - but I got nothing. Tried stuff in my industry as well as out, local retail, everything - "sorry not hiring". I literally begged recruiters to put me forward for anything however menial, but they just wouldn't. I called and mailed heaps of places and almost never even got a reply. The only reason I got the gig I did, in the end, was through being in the right place at the right time, and having a friend put in a good word with the hiring manager. Was out of work for months, though

Others I know personally, with the same keen-to-work attitude, had the same experience (although we're all employed now, even if we're all contractor/casual types). Maybe it's because we're foreign? NZ is a wee bit insular, y'know...

When I was out of work due to illness it was unlikely that I would be able to return to my previous job so I started my own company (went from construction to IT). Is this not an option?
I know a guy who is now quite successful but as a young fella used to make money setting up lawn mowing rounds and selling them. He made FA out of mowing the lawns, his payback was selling the round. It cost him fuck all to do.

Not sure what the sums are like now a day for lawn mowing rounds, but there are a lot of possibilities out there that one can avail themselves of with the luxury of time, why wait for a job - create one yourself.

On the foreign issue.
I obviously don't know you, but I really can't stress enough, communication can be a HUGE part of that.
Actually, communication has been the single most important financial factor in my life. It's made me more money than any other ability that I have.
And it is something you can work on with that luxury of time I allude to.

[Slavvy]

I got an Indian ex-telemarketer selected over me for a job at Bunnings despite my having more experience and him only being able to name half the tools and shit because he was mouthier. All the people saying the dole is comfortable and should be cut etc should go and put their money where their mouth is: Try living on less than $200 a week assholes. It's almost impossible to do anything other than exist.

This is very true. I've never been on the dole, can't comment personally, however I have a good friend who is. She's a 30y/o divorced mother of two, has her 7 and 9 year old kids week on week off with the father. She cant afford to buy a car, so has difficulty getting anywhere even when her kids aren't around, has to try get minor jobs doing gardening etc.

I have no sympathy for the lazy stoner pricks who do nothing all day and exist on the dole because they can't be bothered making an effort, but not every situation is the same and you can't paint everyone on the DPB with the same brush

[DrunkenMistake]

What did Countdown/Pak n Save say?

You would be surprised, I passed NCEA Lvl2 with Merit, along with a bunch of Lvl 3 tech, physics and english papers, and alot of practical and written lvl 3 mechanical engineering papers/projects, doesnt mean shit if there is someone better than you ahead of the que.

Climb back under your bridge mate,

and @SMOKEU, I wouldnt know myself but are you not able to do some kind of coarse through WINZ to get some kind of qualifications?, maybe look into advancing some of your licenses etc, or maybe look at beefing up your CV, do some volunteer stuff in your community, all looks good in a CV man.

[marty]

get fucked.

he comes on here complaining can't get a job, but is more than happy to slag off others who are contributing to the community rather than bludging from it.

[DrunkenMistake]

get fucked.

he comes on here complaining can't get a job, but is more than happy to slag off others who are contributing to the community rather than bludging from it.

Yah, I had a bit of a rage there.. haha.
I happen to be stuck in a ball sack job in a super market, and I can assure you almost everyone in my place of work has some kind of qualification or degree

[SMOKEU]

What did Countdown/Pak n Save say?

Nothing. I've applied for a job at several supermarkets (I have 4.5 years of supermarket experience working in various departments). About 90% of the jobs I've applied for, I never hear back from them.




and @SMOKEU, I wouldnt know myself but are you not able to do some kind of coarse through WINZ to get some kind of qualifications?, maybe look into advancing some of your licenses etc, or maybe look at beefing up your CV, do some volunteer stuff in your community, all looks good in a CV man.

I haven't really heard from WINZ since the February 22 quake, I used to have to go in every week but not any more. I have rung them up and they basically said just to keep looking for a job on my own.




When I worked in a supermarket, there were plenty of people I worked with who were in their 40s and they were still stacking shelves. I don't want to be doing that kind of thing when I'm that age. I'm seriously thinking about going to polytech and doing a degree. I'm looking at doing a bachelor of ICT. A mate of mine has that degree and he's doing pretty well for himself working as a systems admin for a very large company.

[BoristheBiter]

Nothing. I've applied for a job at several supermarkets (I have 4.5 years of supermarket experience working in various departments). About 90% of the jobs I've applied for, I never hear back from them.



I haven't really heard from WINZ since the February 22 quake, I used to have to go in every week but not any more. I have rung them up and they basically said just to keep looking for a job on my own.




When I worked in a supermarket, there were plenty of people I worked with who were in their 40s and they were still stacking shelves. I don't want to be doing that kind of thing when I'm that age. I'm seriously thinking about going to polytech and doing a degree. I'm looking at doing a bachelor of ICT. A mate of mine has that degree and he's doing pretty well for himself working as a systems admin for a very large company.

Ever thought of doing a trade?
How about joining the army/navy, hell you could even apply to be a cop.

[Jantar]

.... I'm seriously thinking about going to polytech and doing a degree. I'm looking at doing a bachelor of ICT. A mate of mine has that degree and he's doing pretty well for himself working as a systems admin for a very large company.
This is the most positive comment you've made. Good on you. Now go and do it. :yes:

[racefactory]

Ever thought of doing a trade?
How about joining the army/navy, hell you could even apply to be a cop.

Big waiting list for police now, too many applicants.
Trade is bloody hard to get into (need pre trade tertiary degrees now) and apprenticeships are hard to come by even with pre trade studies. Really have to know someone for this one.
Forces are a bloody good option for those that are fortunate enough to be eligible for entry though I reckon!

[The Stranger]

hell you could even apply to be a cop.

He sounds a bit over qualified really for that.

[EJK]

I'm seriously thinking about going to polytech and doing a degree. I'm looking at doing a bachelor of ICT. A mate of mine has that degree and he's doing pretty well for himself working as a systems admin for a very large company.

Join the ride mate. I'm on my 3rd year of BICT and so far I can say these guys are great. Brilliant environment to study.

Come on board :yes:

[DrunkenMistake]

Ever thought of doing a trade?
How about joining the army/navy, hell you could even apply to be a cop.

This is also a pretty good option, the army would be your best bet if your a bit of a tard. Just have to be physicaly fit.

[SMOKEU]

I have seriously been thinking about joining the po-leese. I don't have any criminal convictions, never been arrested before and the only fine I've ever had was for a noisy exhaust a couple of years back. The only thing holding me back is my fitness level.

[racefactory]

I have seriously been thinking about joining the po-leese. I don't have any criminal convictions, never been arrested before and the only fine I've ever had was for a noisy exhaust a couple of years back. The only thing holding me back is my fitness level.

Fitness is a joy and is easy to get up to scratch quickly, especially for those paltry police fitness tests. Go for it before the waiting lists get too big and they start demanding some sort of fucking pre police entry degree and what not!

[Woodman]

I have seriously been thinking about joining the po-leese. I don't have any criminal convictions, never been arrested before and the only fine I've ever had was for a noisy exhaust a couple of years back. The only thing holding me back is my fitness level.

If the fitness test is the same as about ten years ago then its not hard at all.

[DrunkenMistake]

I have seriously been thinking about joining the po-leese. I don't have any criminal convictions, never been arrested before and the only fine I've ever had was for a noisy exhaust a couple of years back. The only thing holding me back is my fitness level.

Your not working, so you have 7 days a week to get your fitness up to scratch.:woohoo:

[SMOKEU]

I should just start riding my push bike every day and I should get reasonably fit after a couple of months. I wonder how strict the entry requirements are though, fitness aside.

[racefactory]

I should just start riding my push bike every day and I should get reasonably fit after a couple of months. I wonder how strict the entry requirements are though, fitness aside.

Well it's never going to be easier than now so just go for it mate. It's only going to get harder and before too long you'll need 2 degrees and speak 3 languages to join the police.

[James Deuce]

I'm going to suffer pain for this, but what the hell.

http://waxingofflyrically.blogspot.com/2011/06/biggest-losers.html

[SPman]

I'm going to suffer pain for this, but what the hell.

http://waxingofflyrically.blogspot.com/2011/06/biggest-losers.html
Not from me, you're not!

[rainman]

If we managed to get in a Welfare system, where the $$ you get on a benefit decreases each year, unless you can provide sufficient evidence where

1) There is proof that you are applying for a job. You list all the places where you have applied, and the WINZ rings those people to see if an application was indeed put forward. (Make it so businesses are required to keep evidence of all applications made)

2) The money that you get is only barely sufficient to maintain the most minimal yet comfortable lifestyle. (Eg Beneficiaries with children.)

3) You are in a state where you are unable to work, and this has been checked and certified by a medical professional.

As of now, there is no effort being made to weed out the scammers from the system. As soon as we can, we should be alot better off.

#1 is the biggest make-work waste of money I've heard in a while. What will that add to the productive economy? Create a Ministry of Small-Minded Checking Up You're Actually Applying for a Job? Dumb suggestion.
#2 is there already - been there, done that, it IS only barely sufficient to live on.
#3 is called the invalid's benefit. It's been there for quite a while. You can argue the medical checks should be beefed up but there's f-all difference between the amount of attention WINZ gives you as an unemployment beneficiary vs. an invalid, so what would you gain?

And, why do you think, through both Labour and Nat governments that there's "no effort being made to weed out the scammers"? Ever thought maybe it's a tough nut to crack? Bet you couldn't do a better job of it.


When I was out of work due to illness it was unlikely that I would be able to return to my previous job so I started my own company (went from construction to IT). Is this not an option?

Kinda what happened, although mostly when people talk about starting their own company they actually mean "casualise their own labour". Unless you make or distribute a product (and for most people don't have the financial or intellectual capital to make a go of this), or think up a novel service (all the standard ones are pretty well looked after) - all you're doing is become a contractor with no labour rights, so employers don't even have to pretend to treat you reasonably. Sure the rates are typically higher but there's downward pressure on that too. Almost all of my mates who were out of work recently have gone back to work as casual contractors - and mostly not at premium rates.

My old man took an admin job "beneath his capabilities" because he couldn't afford to study what he wanted. But his employer treated him fairly and he had a career path, stayed with the same outfit for the best part of 40 years, until he died. When I was young I thought working at the same job forever sounded like torture, but I'd grab it with both hands today. I'm currently doing OK on a decent length contract but even so I know I could be out the door on two weeks notice, irrespective of my performance - next time Goldman Sachs makes a stoopid move, or next time oil jumps a few $10s and the economy tanks, there goes my and my family's security. Again.

It's not a better world we've made, this.



On the foreign issue.
I obviously don't know you, but I really can't stress enough, communication can be a HUGE part of that.

I know what you mean, but it's more culture than communications, honestly. Example: friend of mine, great references, excellent experience, solid financial analysis and risk management skills, qualified, absolutely fluent, multiple languages - in fact a highly intelligent and erudite speaker and thinker - hard worker, fucken brilliant asset to any company that would have taken him on; but with a distinctly foreign name. No matter what we tried, no matter how we buffed and polished his CV every way we could, and pitched him to all of the right places, he didn't get a look in. Not even one interview, even when I knew there were genuine vacancies. He ended up doing something way, way below what he could have contributed, and is (just a little) embittered and cynical about the place. And this isn't an isolated case, or even only since the recession.

I've sat alongside Kiwi hiring managers at companies I've worked at, where they have flicked through the applicant CV pile and sifted out the foreigners or those that didn't go to the right school. You're not the welcoming lot that you may think you are.


I have seriously been thinking about joining the po-leese. I don't have any criminal convictions, never been arrested before and the only fine I've ever had was for a noisy exhaust a couple of years back. The only thing holding me back is my fitness level.

Nah, go for it. You sound like a relatively young chap. Take it from me, fitness can be sorted a helluva lot easier at your age than at mine. I tried to work for the police call centre when I had no work. Chased them three times before they said sorry, drowning in applicants, don't call us, we are unlikely to call you... So get in while you can.

[The Stranger]

Kinda what happened, although mostly when people talk about starting their own company they actually mean "casualise their own labour".

It's not a better world we've made, this.


Casualise my own labour.
Well, perhaps, I'm working right now. Tomorrow morning is busy, but the afternoon will probably be slack. Tuesday morning I'll be down at the pools no matter how busy I am (short of a server melt down) doing lengths until about mid day, then I'll see how it goes after that - with a little luck I'll be too fucked to move in the afternoon. Used to work my arse off 60-80 hour weeks for years, but I can't say I'm too upset now that my labour being "casualised" - can't ever imagine going back to a real job. Never say never - but I doubt it.

If god gives you lemons, get a new god right.



I've sat alongside Kiwi hiring managers at companies I've worked at, where they have flicked through the applicant CV pile and sifted out the foreigners or those that didn't go to the right school. You're not the welcoming lot that you may think you are.


The right school - isn't exactly racist and happens the world over.
Reality is the world is about who you know. Build relationships, it goes a long way.
May I enquire where you are from?




You're still sounding like you're relying on someone else for your future.
Fucked if I would. I mean, isn't that the ultimate test of one's worth.
You rely on your abilities and wits to survive, if you can't make it then guess what - you're not worth what you think someone else should be paying you.
A lesson most Labour MP's will never understand.

[marty]

you're starting to sound like skiddie. all talk and no action. thinking about this, thinking about that. just get off your fat arse and do something. don't whinge about not having a job, then say I don't want to stack shelves, cause that suggests that you have turned down an actual job.

and if you really want to join the police, you're gonna need to do some navel gazing to your embedded attitudes - cause as it stands - i would do everything to make sure you never get in.

[BoristheBiter]

I'm going to suffer pain for this, but what the hell.

http://waxingofflyrically.blogspot.com/2011/06/biggest-losers.html

Ok I'll bite.

To have a child is a choice, whether it is planned or not it is a choice.
I choose not to have children, thats is my choice so why should i have to pay for someone else's? Will someone pay for my dog if i loose my job, will they pick up my mortgage payments if my partner looses hers?

The answer is of course not because I have made the choice not to live above my means, have insurance against any problem that might eventuate and don't expect someone else to pay for me.

All benefits have become a lifestyle choice and it should stop now.

[Maha]

Ten Thousand jobs on Tradme...:corn:

[James Deuce]

The answer is of course not because I have made the choice not to live above my means, have insurance against any problem that might eventuate and don't expect someone else to pay for me.


I can tell you from personal experience that one day you may not have a choice. The vast majority of NZers escaped the worst effects of the GFC. I did not.

[BoristheBiter]

I can tell you from personal experience that one day you may not have a choice. The vast majority of NZers escaped the worst effects of the GFC. I did not.

Its called putting away for a rainy day.

[James Deuce]

Its called putting away for a rainy day.

You don't know what you're talking about so there's no need to be patronising. You can end up with nothing very quickly completely outside your control.

[The Stranger]

I'm going to suffer pain for this, but what the hell.

http://waxingofflyrically.blogspot.com/2011/06/biggest-losers.html

Don't know about this Jim Walsh guy - seems to be a whack job really.
There is a mid ground. Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenics etc should be taken care of (IMHO). There are many through no fault of their own are unable to work or otherwise contribute to the economy. I'm all for taking care of these people.
Sure National may well be cherry picking the cases, but then these are the very ones they need to target. Granted a scatter gun approach is not necessarily the best option, but it may well be the only practical one.

I see that there also needs to be some pretty strong disincentive element built into the laws around collecting a benefit (of any kind) to deter the lazy and those using it as a career choice - or say those with tenis elbow for example.

[BoristheBiter]

You don't know what you're talking about so there's no need to be patronising. You can end up with nothing very quickly completely outside your control.

Like What??

I have insurance to cover me against "shit that just happens" and money in the bank in case that falls over.

If i sounds patronising then so be it, if you piss your money against the wall and spend all you earn why should I bail you out when the shit starts to stink?

[oneofsix]

Like What??

I have insurance to cover me against "shit that just happens" and money in the bank in case that falls over.

If i sounds patronising then so be it, if you piss your money against the wall and spend all you earn why should I bail you out when the shit starts to stink?

Lucky you, you've had enough spare to be able to afford insurance AND put some in the bank :woohoo:
As admitted by Sir Robert Muldoon, way back in the think big days, this country and the western, capitalist system generally runs on a level of unemployment, think he said 10% was the required level of the day. The capitalist system requires people at all levels of income therefore I see no issue with those that have contributing to the lives of the lower income brackets. After all if it wasn't for the lower income people the higher income earners wouldn't be where they are.

[Oblivion]

I have insurance to cover me against "shit that just happens" and money in the bank in case that falls over.

And that Ladies and Gentlemen is why the elderly do so well in this society of ours.

[Ronin]

Like What??

I have insurance to cover me against "shit that just happens" and money in the bank in case that falls over.

If i sounds patronising then so be it, if you piss your money against the wall and spend all you earn why should I bail you out when the shit starts to stink?

Interesting opinion there. Knowing something of Mr Deuce's circumstances and the challenges he has rather stoically faced over the last two years I shall reach for the pop corn and await his answer.

I would suggest Mr Boris that the arse has never truly fallen out of your world due to circumstances beyond your control. The best laid plans mean little when you are attempting to battle the very people that you assume (indeed have paid to) be there to help you.

I am one of the lucky ones. I have had occasions where events conspired to leave me looking into a rather large, deep and dark abyss that my life is about to (despite the best, most paranoid planning in the world) hurtle. I have been lucky. Very lucky indeed to dodge potential ruination.

Other mans shoes and all that.

[scissorhands]

I could say..........but I wont..... yes I will

Create a diverse culture which NOT ONLY supports but encourages and represents the neurodiverse population....

Queen St Macdonalds employs a significant amount of retards. There is a happy and good work environment here, as I type and enjoy my free broadband, $5 coffee and cake. Quite a few autistics, spectrumites and other neurodiverse disorders and/or just a difference in some.

Very good management/human resources at play...............the retards that like to shop here keep coming back...:shutup:

I'm guessing the true rate for neurodiversity in NZ around 5-15%.

What level does unemployment rate usually float around?:shit:

As an autistic myself, nearly all work environments are now obnoxious to me, when I was younger I could swallow the shit. Neurotypicals will try to impose conventions and norms upon my behaviour, things which are neither rational nor instinctual to me. To make it worse I am criticised for my ways by group think monkeys without a rational brain.

Most of the unemployed that I know personally here around Grey Lynn, are often very very bright, one drug fucked chicky who is naturally very hard working, even had a scholarship to the best girls school in Auckland.

Most appear to seek escape from THE PLANET OF THE APES through music, the arts, drugs and sex.

Just like the world economy made room for the working woman ( and look at all the tax she pays:blink::blink:)........... when NZ culture learns to coax the neurotypical workers not to pick on/bully the neurodiverse workers, the neurodiverse may decide not only to come and stay at your party (because they are now able to enjoy themselves rather than waiting for the next blow from an insensitive gorilla) but clean up after themselves, and decide to integrate in your world, because we are now accepted and had fun, and in turn invite you to one of our parties.

We only wanted to be loved, instead of despised, despised by even our spawners:violin::violin:

Who the fuck would come to a party where the host unsecretedly thinks your a retard?:angry::angry:

Best they opt for a cultural cleanse:bye:, use natal screening and euthanase spock like babies so we can all march to the same drum like the Chinese

The truth will set you free, or you beat him up for speaking the unspeakable when he states 'The Emperor has no Clothes'

Eventually this will come to pass but not right now.

Rant over

[BoristheBiter]

Lucky you, you've had enough spare to be able to afford insurance AND put some in the bank :woohoo:
As admitted by Sir Robert Muldoon, way back in the think big days, this country and the western, capitalist system generally runs on a level of unemployment, think he said 10% was the required level of the day. The capitalist system requires people at all levels of income therefore I see no issue with those that have contributing to the lives of the lower income brackets. After all if it wasn't for the lower income people the higher income earners wouldn't be where they are.

Not saying we shouldn't but it has now become a lifestyle choice and that is what I object to.

We now live in a society where everyone seems to believe that when shit goes wrong the government will bail them out, where those in jail have better access to things (health care, education etc) and its always someone else's fault.

It's time it was changed but i won't hold my breath.

Oh and luck had nothing to do with it it was all dam hard work.

[BoristheBiter]

And that Ladies and Gentlemen is why the elderly do so well in this society of ours.

Please explain??

[Katman]

Nothing. I've applied for a job at several supermarkets (I have 4.5 years of supermarket experience working in various departments). About 90% of the jobs I've applied for, I never hear back from them.


Maybe your lack of success has nothing much to do with your lack of qualifications.

Maybe it's more to do with your attitude.

[scissorhands]

Or the 'fuck the police' t shirt

[James Deuce]

Like What??

I have insurance to cover me against "shit that just happens" and money in the bank in case that falls over.

If i sounds patronising then so be it, if you piss your money against the wall and spend all you earn why should I bail you out when the shit starts to stink?

You do not know my details and you have no right to make assumptions. Suffice to say that you are being an utter twat. Insurance only lasts so long. Savings last only so long and can disappear altogether without any input or you even using them for anything.

I think you've had a very sheltered life.

[sinfull]

My brain would asplode.

You'd pretty much have to rely on being continually stoned just to stay sane.
Wot ?

I could say..........but I wont..... yes I will

Create a diverse culture which NOT ONLY supports but encourages and represents the neurodiverse population....

Queen St Macdonalds employs a significant amount of retards. There is a happy and good work environment here, as I type and enjoy my free broadband, $5 coffee and cake. Quite a few autistics, spectrumites and other neurodiverse disorders and/or just a difference in some.

Very good management/human resources at play...............the retards that like to shop here keep coming back...:shutup:

I'm guessing the true rate for neurodiversity in NZ around 5-15%.

What level does unemployment rate usually float around?:shit:

As an autistic myself, nearly all work environments are now obnoxious to me, when I was younger I could swallow the shit. Neurotypicals will try to impose conventions and norms upon my behaviour, things which are neither rational nor instinctual to me. To make it worse I am criticised for my ways by group think monkeys without a rational brain.

Most of the unemployed that I know personally here around Grey Lynn, are often very very bright, one drug fucked chicky who is naturally very hard working, even had a scholarship to the best girls school in Auckland.

Most appear to seek escape from THE PLANET OF THE APES through music, the arts, drugs and sex.

Just like the world economy made room for the working woman ( and look at all the tax she pays:blink::blink:)........... when NZ culture learns to coax the neurotypical workers not to pick on/bully the neurodiverse workers, the neurodiverse may decide not only to come and stay at your party (because they are now able to enjoy themselves rather than waiting for the next blow from an insensitive gorilla) but clean up after themselves, and decide to integrate in your world, because we are now accepted and had fun, and in turn invite you to one of our parties.

We only wanted to be loved, instead of despised, despised by even our spawners:violin::violin:

Who the fuck would come to a party where the host unsecretedly thinks your a retard?:angry::angry:

Best they opt for a cultural cleanse:bye:, use natal screening and euthanase spock like babies so we can all march to the same drum like the Chinese

The truth will set you free, or you beat him up for speaking the unspeakable when he states 'The Emperor has no Clothes'

Eventually this will come to pass but not right now.

Rant overYeah wot he said !!!!

[Grasshopperus]

(When asked what qualifications he has) Nothing at all.

Smokeu, I hope the irony of this situation hasn't escaped you.

You're always bitching about how your country got ruined by 'all the blacks' and that's why your family escaped to NZ. Now, you're the noob, with no skills, who is bludging off the system FUCKING UP OUR COUNTRY!

How does it feel to be on the other side of the fence?

[SMOKEU]

Smokeu, I hope the irony of this situation hasn't escaped you.

You're always bitching about how your country got ruined by 'all the blacks' and that's why your family escaped to NZ. Now, you're the noob, with no skills, who is bludging off the system FUCKING UP OUR COUNTRY!

How does it feel to be on the other side of the fence?

I'm not a thieving nigger so I don't see how I'm phucking up the country. I paid taxes for 4.5 years when I worked so I like to think of it as a tax refund.

[marty]

you're a fucking dickhead. a tryhard whingeing dickhead. i'd kick you in the cunt if i was unfortunate enough to meet you.

[SMOKEU]

you're a fucking dickhead. a tryhard whingeing dickhead. i'd kick you in the cunt if i was unfortunate enough to meet you.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRuRVzo3HFsrhokO2b81AGORM5r-luESz9hrNOVpRKkVwXb5fPx7Q&t=1

[Smifffy]

I'm not a thieving nigger so I don't see how I'm phucking up the country. I paid taxes for 4.5 years when I worked so I like to think of it as a tax refund.

http://tinyurl.com/3h3nyfg

SECURITY STAFF TO JOIN OUR SECURITY TEAMS IN THE CANTERBURY REGION

Asset Protection Security Officers

Air Traffic Controller Trainees - Aviation Industr

Load Bay Operator
Load Bay Operator to assist with the completion of all orders in full and on time to meet required distribution timelines.

Night Storeperson

Data Entry - Evenings

Evening Storeperson - Christchurch

Customer Service/Operations Assistant

commercial cleaning staff wanted

Apprentice Carpenter

CUSTOMER SERVICE PERSON


HTH

These are the ones on the first couple (of many) pages that don't specifically call for quals/experience, although some ask for skills/competencies.

Let us know how the applications go, and feel free to ask for help with CVs, interview letters etc. I'm sure that there are many here who would really like to see you get work.

[oneofsix]

Not saying we shouldn't but it has now become a lifestyle choice and that is what I object to.

We now live in a society where everyone seems to believe that when shit goes wrong the government will bail them out, where those in jail have better access to things (health care, education etc) and its always someone else's fault.

It's time it was changed but i won't hold my breath.

Oh and luck had nothing to do with it it was all dam hard work.

"lifestyle choice" is propaganda speak. Very few chose to be have nots although quite a few make choices that the consequences mean they end up there. Even then our society requires people at that level so why shouldn't it be those that chose it?
DPB was bought in to assist woman and children escape violent situations and starvation. Look at what preceded it, such as workhouses and "orphanages". Why do you think they wrote books about how bad they were?
Luck, yeah it was involved. You didn't have bad luck, so far neither have I. All the hard work in the world can still dump you at the bottom of the heap with a bit of bad luck. Hard work helps and is the right thing to do but doesn't make it certain.

[Quasievil]

you're a fucking dickhead. a tryhard whingeing dickhead. i'd kick you in the cunt if i was unfortunate enough to meet you.

Bwaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh

[BoristheBiter]

You do not know my details and you have no right to make assumptions. Suffice to say that you are being an utter twat. Insurance only lasts so long. Savings last only so long and can disappear altogether without any input or you even using them for anything.

I think you've had a very sheltered life.

You are right, I don't know you or your circumstances just like you don't know me or mine so assumptions are made and like you I have every right to do so until proven otherwise by facts.

I am going by generalisation and observations i have had over the 40+ years i have been around. If you have taken this as a dig at you then so be it, it wasn't aimed at you personally.

Think all you want, still won't change that fact that I'm right.

[BoristheBiter]

"lifestyle choice" is propaganda speak. Very few chose to be have nots although quite a few make choices that the consequences mean they end up there. Even then our society requires people at that level so why shouldn't it be those that chose it?
DPB was bought in to assist woman and children escape violent situations and starvation. Look at what preceded it, such as workhouses and "orphanages". Why do you think they wrote books about how bad they were?
Luck, yeah it was involved. You didn't have bad luck, so far neither have I. All the hard work in the world can still dump you at the bottom of the heap with a bit of bad luck. Hard work helps and is the right thing to do but doesn't make it certain.

Bad luck? Yes i have had my fare share, i just don't bitch about or expect someone else to pick up the bill for it.

If after a year, when all my money would run out, and i had not sorted my shit out why should you have to bail me out? you shouldn't just, like I shouldn't have to bail anyone else out.

You are right no one chooses to be a have not they just expect someone else to do the work.

[oneofsix]

Bad luck? Yes i have had my fare share, i just don't bitch about or expect someone else to pick up the bill for it.

If after a year, when all my money would run out, and i had not sorted my shit out why should you have to bail me out? you shouldn't just, like I shouldn't have to bail anyone else out.

You are right no one chooses to be a have not they just expect someone else to do the work.

Sorry but i think it is just part of a caring society to support those less fortunate however i do see it that whilst you are on welfare you are being employed by the state as per the type of welfare you are on, i.e DPB you raise the kid and if you don't then loss it or if unemployment your job is to find employment not sit around and moan.

[BoristheBiter]

Sorry but i think it is just part of a caring society to support those less fortunate however i do see it that whilst you are on welfare you are being employed by the state as per the type of welfare you are on, i.e DPB you raise the kid and if you don't then loss it or if unemployment your job is to find employment not sit around and moan.

Nothing to be sorry about, I used to think the same way until continually seeing the scum that sits around sucking on the welfare tit while others more in need and more deserving do without.

[Paul in NZ]

Like What??

I have insurance to cover me against "shit that just happens" and money in the bank in case that falls over.

If i sounds patronising then so be it, if you piss your money against the wall and spend all you earn why should I bail you out when the shit starts to stink?

No - you are seriously delusional if you think that makes you 'safe'. Granted you are safer than most but....

Companies fail, crooks are everywhere and the luck is not always with you. Perfect storms occur and people can be torn down and stomped on very quickly. If you know Jim you could do worse than listen to him as one day he will write a book about his experiences and you will realise he is a sort of financial Bear Grylls

[The Stranger]

Like What??

I have insurance to cover me against "shit that just happens" and money in the bank in case that falls over.

If i sounds patronising then so be it, if you piss your money against the wall and spend all you earn why should I bail you out when the shit starts to stink?

Did you stop to consider that you have been very lucky then?
Most people of wealth and power won't entertain the notion that it was by and large priviledge and luck that got them where they are.
It was hard work and diligence they would have you believe.

Well yes it was, but it was luck they were born with those traits. It was luck that they had a particular up bringing that instilled those values and it was luck that society values what they have to offer.

I don't see eye with my old man. We have only just started talking agian after many years and it is strained and infrequent. But one thing I thank him for frequently is that he taught me how to work hard. Although I have been very lucky and much of that luck has come from hard work, foresight and diligence I do realise that I have my father to thank for so much of that.
I see others raised sans a functioning father and wonder who will teach them what hard work is? will they be so lucky?

There but for the grace of god go I.
Some aren't so lucky. Would a measure of compassion toward those who aren't be so bad?

[Str8 Jacket]

It's amazing the trust people place in Insurance and related companies. You can think that you're financially "secure" as much as you like and believe that you have everything planned but sometimes, when the unexpected happens - you're fucked.

[BoristheBiter]

No - you are seriously delusional if you think that makes you 'safe'. Granted you are safer than most but....

Companies fail, crooks are everywhere and the luck is not always with you. Perfect storms occur and people can be torn down and stomped on very quickly. If you know Jim you could do worse than listen to him as one day he will write a book about his experiences and you will realise he is a sort of financial Bear Grylls

I never have had a go at him, all i said was why should i bail him out?? what makes him so special compared with joe nextdoor.

[Str8 Jacket]

what makes him so special compared with joe nextdoor.

Because we don't give a fuck about Joe next door. Jim on the other hand......

[BoristheBiter]

Did you stop to consider that you have been very lucky then?
Most people of wealth and power won't entertain the notion that it was by and large priviledge and luck that got them where they are.
It was hard work and diligence they would have you believe.

Well yes it was, but it was luck they were born with those traits. It was luck that they had a particular up bringing that instilled those values and it was luck that society values what they have to offer.

I don't see eye with my old man. We have only just started talking agian after many years and it is strained and infrequent. But one thing I thank him for frequently is that he taught me how to work hard. Although I have been very lucky and much of that luck has come from hard work, foresight and diligence I do realise that I have my father to thank for so much of that.
I see others raised sans a functioning father and wonder who will teach them what hard work is? will they be so lucky?

There but for the grace of god go I.
Some aren't so lucky. Would a measure of compassion toward those who aren't be so bad?

No, I have not had any more luck, good or bad, than anyone else.

Funny how good luck and hard work go hand in hand.

Many people might think i am lucky to have what i do, i just think it was hard work and the fact that i am very tight with my money helps a lot too.

[Katman]

and you will realise he is a sort of financial Bear Grylls

I want to see him eat a jar full of live money spiders then.

[BoristheBiter]

Because we don't give a fuck about Joe next door. Jim on the other hand......

So why should i give a fuck about Jim? (no offence JD)
To me he is just joe nextdoor with his hand out.

[Str8 Jacket]

So why should i give a fuck about Jim? (no offence JD)
To me he is just joe nextdoor with his hand out.

You aint named Boris the Biter for nothing, are ya!

You continue to live in your perfect world but when everything goes belly up and you end up in strife regardless of your awesome planning, saving etc don't complain!

Got it?

[short-circuit]

you're a fucking dickhead. a tryhard whingeing dickhead. i'd kick you in the cunt if i was unfortunate enough to meet you.

+1 At least Dean and DB are a source of amusement...and not south african

[Brian d marge]

Ill add this , from a book written by a famous "Im not quite dead yet " smart person

<cite>The people in the culture of poverty have a strong feeling of marginality, of helplessness, of dependency, of not belonging. They are like aliens in their own country, convinced that the existing institutions do not serve their interests and needs. Along with this feeling of powerlessness is a widespread feeling of inferiority, of personal unworthiness. This is true of the slum dwellers of Mexico City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City), who do not constitute a distinct ethnic or racial group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classification_of_human_beings%29) and do not suffer from racial discrimination. In the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) the culture of poverty that exists in the Negroes has the additional disadvantage of racial discrimination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_discrimination). People with a culture of poverty have very little sense of history. They are a marginal people who know only their own troubles, their own local conditions, their own neighborhood, their own way of life. Usually, they have neither the knowledge, the vision nor the ideology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology) to see the similarities between their problems and those of others like themselves elsewhere in the world. In other words, they are not class conscious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), although they are very sensitive indeed to status distinctions. When the poor become class conscious or members of trade union organizations, or when they adopt an internationalist outlook on the world they are, in my view, no longer part of the culture of poverty although they may still be desperately poor.</cite> (Lewis 1998)


this is just a wee bit to hopefully start people thinking . It all ties in and the causes ( dates time and names !) are clear , as are the effects.

I have a few Jesus boots left , loin cloths , well you have to provide those yourself.

Stephen

[SMOKEU]

+1 At least Dean and DB are a source of amusement...and not south african

What have you got against Africans?

[Smifffy]

Ill add this , from a book written by a famous "Im not quite dead yet " smart person

<cite>The people in the culture of poverty have a strong feeling of marginality, of helplessness, of dependency, of not belonging. They are like aliens in their own country, convinced that the existing institutions do not serve their interests and needs. Along with this feeling of powerlessness is a widespread feeling of inferiority, of personal unworthiness......

There is only one person that can control an individuals feelings.

Maybe they don't know how to feel any differently. Maybe the welfare payments are just perpetuating the problem. In that case don't we owe it to them to stop the payments and try something else? :msn-wink:

[Brian d marge]

There is only one person that can control an individuals feelings.

Maybe they don't know how to feel any differently. Maybe the welfare payments are just perpetuating the problem. In that case don't we owe it to them to stop the payments and try something else? :msn-wink:

both New York and Mexico are paying a lump sum of 5000 dollars to families who meet educational and lifestyle target as set down by government.

Stephen

[scissorhands]

There is only one person that can control an individuals feelings.


A happy well balance self actualised individual only. How many of those do you come across? Very few are in charge of their feelings.

A good secure family goes a long way, as does a thriving community. Some individuals have nothing to work for, emotionally, no hope.

[BoristheBiter]

You aint named Boris the Biter for nothing, are ya!

You continue to live in your perfect world but when everything goes belly up and you end up in strife regardless of your awesome planning, saving etc don't complain!

Got it?

See that's the difference, i wouldn't be there with my hand out or complaining i would just get on and do it.

[Ronin]

What have you got against Africans?

They tend to be arrogant self serving biggots who think the world owes them a living.

[Ronin]

See that's the difference, i wouldn't be there with my hand out or complaining i would just get on and do it.

Can you show me where Jim has ever held his hand out? Please?

[SMOKEU]

They tend to be arrogant self serving biggots who think the world owes them a living.

That's the first I've heard.


It's a bit hard to make a living when I can't find a job and when polytech don't want me.

[oneofsix]

See that's the difference, i wouldn't be there with my hand out or complaining i would just get on and do it.

I hope it doesn't happen to you and if it does that you are in a position to get on and do it but that isn't always the case. In that case I hope you have the balls to admit you were wrong unlike most who live by glib quotes who always find excuses or ignore their mistakes.

[BoristheBiter]

Can you show me where Jim has ever held his hand out? Please?

Never said he did, nor have i said this was about him. Like i said i am talking generally and if he, or anyone else has taken offence by this then thats up to them.


I hope it doesn't happen to you and if it does that you are in a position to get on and do it but that isn't always the case. In that case I hope you have the balls to admit you were wrong unlike most who live by glib quotes who always find excuses or ignore their mistakes.

Me too, and trust me I could never ignore my mistakes as there would be way to many that would keep reminding me of them.

I don't live by quotes, they are just quicker to type.

[Ronin]

That's the first I've heard.


It's a bit hard to make a living when I can't find a job and when polytech don't want me.

Do you read some of your posts before you submit them?

I have at least two guys a month come in looking for work. Not counting the drop kicks who think using the phone is 'looking'. In the 3 years I have been here there would be ummmmmmm none that I would have considered interviewing had I had a job going.


Personal grooming is important
your CV needs to be well presented
Attitude is everything. Attitude is everything. Attitude is everything.


The best will in the world will not get anyone a job if their approach and attitude suck arse. And don't fool yourself. Most people over 35 can spot a bad attitude from a mile away.

The few people I have thought 'might' one day be worth a look have all been made the same offer. Call in for a coffee on your free time. Hang around a bit. Watch what we do and how we do it. Ask intelligent questions. Give me the chance to see that you are keen and want to learn. I'm still waiting.

I used to take leave from my real job and spend time here so I could learn and help out where I could. Never asked for anything in return. Eight years later I own the place.

[Banditbandit]

That's the first I've heard.


It's a bit hard to make a living when I can't find a job and when polytech don't want me.

Oh ... So you are still one of those bludgers living off the welfare state ...

[SMOKEU]

Do you read some of your posts before you submit them?

I have at least two guys a month come in looking for work. Not counting the drop kicks who think using the phone is 'looking'. In the 3 years I have been here there would be ummmmmmm none that I would have considered interviewing had I had a job going.


Personal grooming is important
your CV needs to be well presented
Attitude is everything. Attitude is everything. Attitude is everything.


The best will in the world will not get anyone a job if their approach and attitude suck arse. And don't fool yourself. Most people over 35 can spot a bad attitude from a mile away.

The few people I have thought 'might' one day be worth a look have all been made the same offer. Call in for a coffee on your free time. Hang around a bit. Watch what we do and how we do it. Ask intelligent questions. Give me the chance to see that you are keen and want to learn. I'm still waiting.

I used to take leave from my real job and spend time here so I could learn and help out where I could. Never asked for anything in return. Eight years later I own the place.

Whenever I go into places to hand in my CV, I'm always really well presented. I don't go in wearing a hoodie and ripped up jeans, I wear a nice button up shirt, tidy dress pants and a pair of shoes to match.

My CV is well presented and I have 2 references on it.


Oh ... So you are still one of those bludgers living off the welfare state ...

I don't have much other choice if I can't find a job and when training institutions don't want to know about me.

It sucks how I need qualifications to be accepted into a course, but I can't get any bloody qualifications unless I do a course!

[Banditbandit]

I don't have much other choice if I can't find a job and when training institutions don't want to know about me.

It sucks how I need qualifications to be accepted into a course, but I can't get any bloody qualifications unless I do a course!

That's just bullshit mate ... there are plenty of bridging programmes to get you into the qualification path ... You're just like those lazy Māoris bludging off the welfare state you're always on about .. no better, no worse

[Str8 Jacket]

That's just bullshit mate ... there are plenty of bridging programmes to get you into the qualification path ... You're just like those lazy Māoris bludging off the welfare state you're always on about .. no better, no worse

No, definitely worse. He comes to "our" country mocks "our" natives and then lives off, of our welfare.

Kettle.
Pot.
Black.

[Katman]

I wear a nice button up shirt, tidy dress pants and a pair of shoes to match.


Do you have the tie to go with them though?

http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/1930_pattern_Schutzstaffel_uniform_with_shoulder_b oard.jpg/175px-1930_pattern_Schutzstaffel_uniform_with_shoulder_b oard.jpg

[Ronin]

No, definitely worse. He comes to "our" country mocks "our" natives and then lives off, of our welfare.

Kettle.
Pot.
Black.

you mean

Kettle
Pot
Indigenous Person

[Str8 Jacket]

you mean

Kettle
Pot
Indigenous Person

ha, clever, I see what you've done there.... KPI = target! :niceone:

[SMOKEU]

That's just bullshit mate ... there are plenty of bridging programmes to get you into the qualification path ... You're just like those lazy Māoris bludging off the welfare state you're always on about .. no better, no worse

Easier said than done.


No, definitely worse. He comes to "our" country mocks "our" natives and then lives off, of our welfare.

Kettle.
Pot.
Black.

NZ does not have any native people.

[Woodman]

Funny re young guys coming in looking for jobs.

The first thing I do is ask them to bring in a cv. That generally means that I won't see about half of them back cos they can't be assed. Some argue the point about the necessity of needing a cv at all, FAIL. Some try to dictate the terms of their employment before they even get an interview. Some tell me that they want a job here because they can't find anything else. Some just look like shit. I even had one that didn't even know what a cv was and when I explained it to him then asked where he could buy one from. Had one that asked me if we do random drug testing because he would definitely fail.

I could go on and on and on.

This is why I now employ older people

[Str8 Jacket]

NZ does not have any native people.

Such a shame that. They would've quite literally eaten you.

[Banditbandit]

Such a shame that. They would've quite literally eaten you.

Kaore. Skinny white and tasteless ...

[Str8 Jacket]

Kaore. Skinny white and tasteless ...

Well people tell me that all the time, however....

SmokeU, you are a dick. I have been working since I was 15 (worked part time during 5th and 6th form while on the Independent Youth Bene) and have absolutely no qualifications. I also have all the excuses under the sun as to why not but at the end of the day as soon as I left high school I got a job and have never been on a benefit since.
Sure, it sucked working at the $2 shop then eventually Burger King but I worked my way up to bigger and brighter things by WORKING to gain experience in low paying jobs. I now work in a very interesting job that normally requires a degree. However they saw that I had gained real working life experience and proved that I was willing to work hard.
No matter who you are, you get to choose what path you take.

Shut up and do it.

[SMOKEU]

Well people tell me that all the time, however....

SmokeU, you are a dick. I have been working since I was 15 (worked part time during 5th and 6th form while on the Independent Youth Bene) and have absolutely no qualifications. I also have all the excuses under the sun as to why not but at the end of the day as soon as I left high school I got a job and have never been on a benefit since.
Sure, it sucked working at the $2 shop then eventually Burger King but I worked my way up to bigger and brighter things by WORKING to gain experience in low paying jobs. I now work in a very interesting job that normally requires a degree. However they saw that I had gained real working life experience and proved that I was willing to work hard.
No matter who you are, you get choose what path you take.

Shut up and do it.

Looks like you got lucky, but it's not that easy to find a job these days without qualifications. If it is as easy to score a job as you say it is then I would have certainly gotten one by now.

[Str8 Jacket]

Looks like you got lucky, but it's not that easy to find a job these days without qualifications. If it is as easy to score a job as you say it is then I would have certainly gotten one by now.

I did not get lucky. I got off my arse and just got a job. Calling working full time at the $2 Shop or Burger King, or working 3 partime fish and chip jobs is not, and I repeat NOT LUCKY. I worked hard and I took any job I cold get. I also quite happily worked for and with any type of ethnicity that would offer me a job. I also lived in shitty hovels as that was what I could afford. I also lived off $20 a week for food for quite a few years. Oh yeah, I also got kicked out of school in 7th form because I couldn't afford to pay my school fees and they were sending debt collectors to my flat.

What part of that is LUCKY?

[scumdog]

Looks like you got lucky, but it's not that easy to find a job these days without qualifications. If it is as easy to score a job as you say it is then I would have certainly gotten one by now.

Expand your horizons.:yes:

Move around the country, try jobs you previously wouldn't have thought of.

Like labouring at vine-yards, tree plantin, working for a shearing gang (or are you scared that you might be working with too many Maori?), give virtually ANYTHING a go.

[Virago]

Looks like you got lucky, but it's not that easy to find a job these days without qualifications. If it is as easy to score a job as you say it is then I would have certainly gotten one by now.

Time spent posting on KB could be better spent looking for a job. Job hunting is a full time job - do it.

Door knocking can reap dividends - it shows initiative, and a genuine desire to work. There's no shortage of doors to knock on - if you're really keen to work somewhere go back and hassle them again, let 'em know you're keen and willing.

Job hunters don't "get lucky" - they get what they deserve.

[Str8 Jacket]

Door knocking can reap dividends - it shows initiative, and a genuine desire to work. There's no shortage of doors to knock on - if you're really keen to work somewhere go back and hassle them again, let 'em know you're keen and willing.

Job hunters don't "get lucky" - they get what they deserve.

Hell yeah, I used to print out one page resume (really crap now I think about it) outlining who I was and what I could do etc and go round EVERY business in town and drop them off till I found a job.

[Ender EnZed]

Looks like you got lucky, but it's not that easy to find a job these days without qualifications. If it is as easy to score a job as you say it is then I would have certainly gotten one by now.

Here's a career plan for you.

Step One: Training (http://www.i-act.org/training.html)

Step Two: Job (http://www.seek.co.nz/Job/colon-therapist-natural-health-spa/in/canterbury-christchurch/19911348)

Step Three: ????

I'll leave the rest up to you.

[Maha]

Time spent posting on KB could be better spent looking for a job. Job hunting is a full time job - do it.

Door knocking can reap dividends - it shows initiative, and a genuine desire to work. There's no shortage of doors to knock on - if you're really keen to work somewhere go back and hassle them again, let 'em know you're keen and willing.

Job hunters don't "get lucky" - they get what they deserve.

Just over 30 years ago I walked up to a Carpet Layer and asked '' can you teach me to lay carpet''....he said '' bring a cut lunch tomorrow and meet me here at 8am''.
The rest as they say... is history.

[Swoop]

...and when polytech don't want me.
Better be gettin' in quickly. Polytech's are being selective now since they are required to sort the wheat from the chaff. Simply "doing a course" is not up to standard. You need to have a desire, a calling or a passion for your future, to get an entry.

Polytech's are not looking at "bums on seats" any longer. Thank you National.

[jrandom]

Like many 'autistics', I'm using it as a label to cover for the fact that I'm a complete twat.

Neurodiversity's a bitch, innit?

[SMOKEU]

Better be gettin' in quickly. Polytech's are being selective now since they are required to sort the wheat from the chaff. Simply "doing a course" is not up to standard. You need to have a desire, a calling or a passion for your future, to get an entry.

Polytech's are not looking at "bums on seats" any longer. Thank you National.

I'm trying to do a degree, so I'll have to see what I can do to get in.

[Str8 Jacket]

I'm trying to do a degree, so I'll have to see what I can do to get in.

I will make this really easy for you:

Get

Off

Your

Arse

[jrandom]

I'm trying to do a degree, so I'll have to see what I can do to get in.

You are a sorry arsed limpdick motherfucker.

I'd like to say that you're an excellent example of why the dole should have a time limit, but unfortunately the truth is that I'd rather just keep paying tax to have you fed and housed than see you starving in a cardboard box under a bridge.

Even though I despise you.

Because that is how an enlightened civilisation should work.

[SMOKEU]

I will make this really easy for you:

Get

Off

Your

Arse

That's what my old lady keeps telling me.


You are a sorry arsed limpdick motherfucker.

I'd like to say that you're an excellent example of why the dole should have a time limit, but unfortunately the truth is that I'd rather just keep paying tax to have you fed and housed than see you starving in a cardboard box under a bridge.

Even though I despise you.

Because that is how an enlightened civilisation should work.

I really don't see what your problem is. At least I'm making an effort to do something productive with my life.

Would you rather have me selling tinnies to school kids?

[mashman]

do you know what you want to do with the rest of your life yet? You haven't got it all planned out have you? Oh dear. At least it looks like you're getting some encouragement from the rear :shit:

If you need money, unfortunately you need a job (or the dole as a fallback, else you'd starve to death, or become a criminal... anyway)... you will nearly always need a job, after all, you're gonna need money to live on. Awesome eh... so stop your fuckin around and get down t pit or to school :shifty:

Great place we live in eh :killingme...

[jrandom]

Would you rather have me selling tinnies to school kids?

Not to school kids, no. That's silly talk. But selling cannabis is, at least, working and providing a service, even if it is outside the law.

Supporting yourself that way beats being on the dole in my books.

Note: no fallacious extrapolations of my comment to imply that I'm in support of manufacturing methamphetamine, committing crimes of dishonesty, etc, etc, please.

[FJRider]

You are a sorry arsed limpdick motherfucker.

I'd like to say that you're an excellent example of why the dole should have a time limit, but unfortunately the truth is that I'd rather just keep paying tax to have you fed and housed than see you starving in a cardboard box under a bridge.

Even though I despise you.

Because that is how an enlightened civilisation should work.

Don't beat around the bush .... give it to him straight ...

You're almost polite ...

[Katman]

You're almost polite ...

When I saw him on the weekend he didn't look well.

[FJRider]

I'm trying to do a degree, so I'll have to see what I can do to get in.

Ummmmm to do a degree ... you have to get in ... which requires money .... and some degree of intelligence ...


Do you have either ... ??? (both will be required)

[SMOKEU]

Ummmmm to do a degree ... you have to get in ... which requires money .... and some degree of intelligence ...


Do you have either ... ??? (both will be required)

Yes to both.

[jrandom]

When I saw him on the weekend he didn't look well.

I was stoned.

[Smifffy]

That's the first I've heard.


It's a bit hard to make a living when I can't find a job and when polytech don't want me.

How many applications have you made in the last week/month/3 months?

Looked any further into those ones I posted earlier today?

[FJRider]

When I saw him on the weekend he didn't look well.

I'll send him a "get well soon " card ...:innocent:

or I would if I knew his address ... or actually cared ... :blink:

[FJRider]

yes to both.

then do it ...

[SMOKEU]

How many applications have you made in the last week/month/3 months?

Looked any further into those ones I posted earlier today?

I've lost count of the jobs I've applied for lately. I go on Trademe and Seek about twice a week and start sending off my CV to pretty much everything in Christchurch that doesn't ask for any particular skills or qualifications.

I have looked into those jobs you posted and I'll start sending off my CV to those places tomorrow. Tonight I'm getting a character reference from a mate of mine to support my application to polytech.

[FJRider]

I've lost count of the jobs I've applied for lately. I go on Trademe and Seek about twice a week and start sending off my CV to pretty much everything in Christchurch that doesn't ask for any particular skills or qualifications.

I have looked into those jobs you posted and I'll start sending off my CV to those places tomorrow. Tonight I'm getting a character reference from a mate of mine to support my application to polytech.

As has been SAID ... get off your arse ... and ... GO SEE THE PLACES HE POSTED ...

MAIL in ANY form is a lazy way of looking ...

[Smifffy]

I'm trying to do a degree, so I'll have to see what I can do to get in.

Fuck it. Just give it up and forget about it, it's easier. We'll all support you. The benefit will always be there, and in 50 years time when there are problems at your council pensioners flat, or with the meals on wheels, you can console yourself with the thought that hey, you just weren't one of the lucky ones.

Damned unlucky that your parents ever left the glorious republic.

Damned unlucky that they brought you to NZ where there are no aids-ridden crims running around with AKs

Damned unlucky to end up in Christchurch where there are only 1384 jobs advertised, and a major long term reconstruction project kicking off at the same time you are looking to enter the workforce.

Damned unlucky that there are polytechs and universities within a 3 hour drive of virtually anywhere in the country, along with government provided finance to do the courses.

Damned unlucky that most towns are so small that many jobs are gotten through the old "who you know not what you know" system, which means getting out and about and demonstrating a positive attitude.

I wouldn't worry about it too much though. One day somebody will see one of your posts on here, and knowing that you have an interest in ICT they'll offer you a top job in that field. That will be your lucky day, look forward to it.

[Smifffy]

I've lost count of the jobs I've applied for lately. I go on Trademe and Seek about twice a week and start sending off my CV to pretty much everything in Christchurch that doesn't ask for any particular skills or qualifications.

I have looked into those jobs you posted and I'll start sending off my CV to those places tomorrow. Tonight I'm getting a character reference from a mate of mine to support my application to polytech.

I do know how gutting it is, I had drawer full of rejection letters in the past.

[Virago]

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aObZJN9zDtA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/p2inSqo3Q3c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[scumdog]

Yes to both.

Are you some kind of cripple or broken-arse?

If not, get out there and do some dirty, demeaning and hard yakka...whatever it takes to get that first job.

'Cos one job will lead to another:yes:

[Virago]

I've lost count of the jobs I've applied for lately. I go on Trademe and Seek about twice a week and start sending off my CV to pretty much everything in Christchurch that doesn't ask for any particular skills or qualifications.

I have looked into those jobs you posted and I'll start sending off my CV to those places tomorrow...

Sigh...

Sitting on your arse flicking CVs around, or making phone calls, or looking on the internet, is not likely to get you a job. Get out there - chase that job.

The knock-backs can get you down, but I was taught how to deal with that, when I was job hunting:

There's an unknown - but finite - number of knockbacks before you get a job. Each and every knockback takes you closer to getting that job. Cheerfully tick them off, and move onto the next.

Get out there, and start knocking off the knock-backs. Treat it as a job - eight hours a day, five days a week.

Do what Maha said - tell them you want to learn, and ask them to teach you (don't expect pay). If you get an offer of a trial, turn up ready to go at least five minutes early, and with your cell-phone turned off once you start. Show initiative in doing what you can - unloading a truck, fetching a tool, even just putting the kettle on at smoko time. If all else fails, grab the broom. Try to be part of the team - without being a smart-arse.

Go for it - boots 'n all. You'll get there.

[Howie]

Seing as a large part of the thread is bashing single parents - what would you suggest they do with the children while they are out earning the minimum wage?
After the child care is paid for what would you suggest the family use to purchase food, let alone pay rent?
My daughter is in a solo parent situation, she WANTS to work - she has reasonable qualifications, has applied for literally hundreds of jobs, from KFC and up. Daycare for the twins will cost more than she can earn, I subsidise a large part of her costs, rent sucks up most of the benefit (which is not all that flash).
The childrens father buggered off shortly after the kids were born. He is probably paying money to IRD, but it's not really helping her.

I agree with you here Pete, As someone who has been a single parent for nearly 10 years. It is hard work to make ends meet as a Single parent if you are on the DPB, or working and have no financial support from the non custodial parent.




Ever thought of doing a trade?
How about joining the army/navy, hell you could even apply to be a cop.

Apprentiships aren't easy to find anymore, Times they are changing.

I heard recently that the army has been hiring young people who have degrees as privates recently, over those who they normally would have hired, it is getting tough out there.


This is also a pretty good option, the army would be your best bet if your a bit of a tard. Just have to be physicaly fit.

Unfortunately not true anymore.

[Toaster]

I've lost count of the jobs I've applied for lately.

Looking at your new FTP avatar mate...

Why don't you join the Police, then you can go fuck yourself.

Better work stories. :innocent:

[short-circuit]

Amazingly what started off as a shitter of a thread with few prospects (like SMOKEU) has blossomed into a thing of true beauty.

[marty]

Looks like you got lucky, but it's not that easy to find a job these days without qualifications. If it is as easy to score a job as you say it is then I would have certainly gotten one by now.

ever noticed how lucky people are well, lucky? they get 'lucky' because all the work behind the scenes that you don't see (like going door to door, working for nothing etc etc) pays off, and all you see is the result - the boats, the Rangie, the HSV, the big house, overseas trips, and you say - fuck he's lucky - look at what he's got.

your posts today have presented you as an overweight, lazy, racist dole bludger who has an excuse for everything. you more than likely present like that on the rare occasion that you actually knock on a door. actually, when WAS the last time you did that?

[scumdog]

your posts today have presented you as an overweight, lazy, racist dole bludger who has an excuse for everything.

I don't know (or care) what image you have of ME by my KB persona but the above is roughly the image YOU have presented by your postings on KB.:yes:

On the other hand maybe it's just you're young and I'm old...and probably know jack-shit in your estimation.

[marty]

I don't know (or care) what image you have of ME by my KB persona but the above is roughly the image YOU have presented by your postings on KB.:yes:

On the other hand maybe it's just you're young and I'm old...and probably know jack-shit in your estimation.

wow. really? that requires some navel gazing on my behalf if that is the case.

[DrunkenMistake]

I don't know (or care) what image you have of ME by my KB persona but the above is roughly the image YOU have presented by your postings on KB.:yes:

On the other hand maybe it's just you're young and I'm old...and probably know jack-shit in your estimation.

Is this you Scummy? ;)
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/9615/dirtyharrypotter72373.th.jpg (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/dirtyharrypotter72373.jpg/)

[scumdog]

Is this you Scummy? ;)
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/9615/dirtyharrypotter72373.th.jpg (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/dirtyharrypotter72373.jpg/)

Paint on a moustache and it's me to a 'T':D:laugh:

[DrunkenMistake]

Paint on a moustache and it's me to a 'T':D:laugh:

:argue: <_< :Police: :2guns:

Hahaha

[neels]

You people are funny.

Well most of you, anyway.

The world has changed quite considerably when it comes to getting a job, and luck has a lot to do with it. I'm lucky to be in a job that according to the ad's our HR people put out I'm nowhere near qualified for, so it's just as well I know pretty much everything about everything at work, the trainees we take on now are more qualified than me.

I have lived on the dole (for 2 weeks in 1998), at the time I couldn't even get a job in a gas station because as soon as there is a whiff of just looking for a job to fill in time until something better comes along employers aren't interested.

And if your attitude is crap people will pick up on it, even if you're on your best behaviour when you're talking to them, it's not hard to see through the bullshit to what someone is really like.

[jaffaonajappa]

Originally Posted by DrunkenMistake
This is also a pretty good option, the army would be your best bet if your a bit of a tard. Just have to be physicaly fit.




Unfortunately not true anymore.

Bwahaha. Its an excellent option for All Tards. Still is.

[jaffaonajappa]

And if your attitude is crap people will pick up on it, even if you're on your best behaviour when you're talking to them, it's not hard to see through the bullshit to what someone is really like.

I dunno. Ive been fooling everyone for about 30 years so far :)

[DrunkenMistake]

I dunno. Ive been fooling everyone for about 30 years so far :)

Sorry to go off topic a little, but if you click the speech bubble with the + at the bottom of someones post it allows you to multi quote, so click several then click reply with quote or just reply I think and all the quotes should be there for you :]

[The Stranger]

It's a bit hard to make a living when I can't find a job and when polytech don't want me.

Yet again the inference seems to be that someone else owes you a job. Who and why do they?

Why do you need to go to polytech to learn?
I have had several bouts of illness in my time that have resulted in extended lost time from my employ.
Each time has been an awesome learning opportunity that has resulted in my enhancing my ability to make money and set myself up well for the future.
Being out of work gave me opportunities in education (self taught) that I would never have had if I was employed.
Use this time to your advantage, it's a chance that you may never get again.

Quite frankly I am less likely to hire someone who needs to go to school to learn what they need to know. I'm of the view that if you can't work it out on your own I don't want you - but then I'm in IT and it changes so fast that really school seems rather moot in very many respects.

[SMOKEU]

Yet again the inference seems to be that someone else owes you a job. Who and why do they?

Why do you need to go to polytech to learn?
I have had several bouts of illness in my time that have resulted in extended lost time from my employ.
Each time has been an awesome learning opportunity that has resulted in my enhancing my ability to make money and set myself up well for the future.
Being out of work gave me opportunities in education (self taught) that I would never have had if I was employed.
Use this time to your advantage, it's a chance that you may never get again.

Quite frankly I am less likely to hire someone who needs to go to school to learn what they need to know. I'm of the view that if you can't work it out on your own I don't want you - but then I'm in IT and it changes so fast that really school seems rather moot in very many respects.

I don't really care if people on here want to take the piss out of me for being on the dole.

When I had to go into Winz every week to look for jobs, there were about 8 of us in the group that had to go in every week at the same time. My case manager commented several times how keen I was to find work - I would always apply for at least 5 jobs every time I was there. Most of the other people didn't really care, and all they would do is muck around and chat because they weren't serious about finding work.

I am not one of those people who wants to be on the dole for the rest of my life - I want to be able to own a house one day and I realize that I will not achieve that by being on the dole or working in a supermarket for the rest of my life. I want to get somewhere good in life where I don't have to count every last $ and struggle to pay all the bills when I'm 40 years old.

When I worked in a supermarket for 4.5 years, many of the people there were in their 40s and they were stacking shelves for minimum wage, or slightly more if they were a manager. I don't want to be like that. I'm making an effort here to be a productive member of society, and if all people want to do is ridicule me for my efforts, then that's fine by me. It makes me even more determined to prove you all wrong by one day being that productive member of society and paying back the government in the form of taxes for all the help they have given me.

Peace.

[kiwifruit]

I don't really care

Peace.

Nothing wrong with stacking selves while you look for other jobs. I've found door knocking to be quite good when looking for work.
Go around town asking if there is any work going, if there is not offer to clean the shop window, leave a card, make an impression.

Good luck :)

[The Stranger]

I don't really care if people on here want to take the piss out of me for being on the dole.


Not a lot of piss taking going on here in reality. Rather it's been a remarkably sober thread given the OP and the topic.

Sure, most don't know you so they can't be specific and consequently some of the advice/opinions may well be wrong, but it's pretty damn good advice in general.

If you are thinking people are taking the piss then you need to put your emotions aside, go back and re-read the thread (with an open mind) and think about what's been said.

[Brian d marge]

One of my better Ideas if I do say so myself!!!
so , ya go on the dole ....at the same time you teach yourself as much as you can about a subject
CFD CGI CAD i dont know , I used those as an example because the help that you can get on-line is possibly better than a polytechnic

Ya get half competent , ( all the while on the dole ) then apply to the poly get the bit of paper at a now reduced rate because one would assume you wouldn't need to do the whole course

Whala edumacated and the state pays the tab

brilliant or what !

Only places that are hard up quibble about the small things , plenty of other countries that have money, and where Jobs are easier to get...no sense in pushing shit up hill

as for hard yakka , sod that use your brain.... damn sight easier, thats why we employ minions they do the hard stuff ......

Carry on ... let me know if you would like any more good Ideas ..........

Stephen

[The Stranger]

One of my better Ideas if I do say so myself!!!
so , ya go on the dole ....at the same time you teach yourself as much as you can about a subject
CFD CGI CAD i dont know , I used those as an example because the help that you can get on-line is possibly better than a polytechnic



Thank you! This is what I have said twice in this thread already.
Being unemployed is a hell of an opportunity - if you just shift your thinking!

If you have a job you aren't going to get that chance again. Get a mortgage and a kid or 2 and it's even worse.

Make the most of it!

[awayatc]

never knew scummy had a painted on mo.......

[Maha]

I'd like to teach the world to sing and furnish it with love, grow apples trees and honey bees and snow white turtle doves....
But fuck it, I have a job!.

[short-circuit]

I'd like to teach the world to sing and furnish it with love, grow apples trees and honey bees and snow white turtle doves....
But fuck it, I have a job!.

Fluffer boy ... won't do interracial.



Aw fuck it - I though I was quoting SmokeU

[Paul in NZ]

Lets TRY and get this back on topic....

I don’t know about the reform of social welfare but I do have a very bad feeling about it.

I’m old enough for my grandparents to have lived through the great depression and heard 1st had the stories that didn’t make it into the history books. Its enough to say that terrible things can happen to prosperous, industrious people in these circumstances and we should all hope that we never get to live through a full blown depression. I’ve been gainfully employed since 13 years old and Vicki since 14. We have never had a single payment from Welfare and the one time Vicki was briefly unemployed (she was a Chef and the Hotel went bust) the Govt people were so bloody demeaning and unhelpful we never went back. They were blindingly good at helping socially inept or the criminal underclass (the ones with a leather vest habit) but just couldn’t deal with an ordinary person. Welfare was not apparently to help a normal person temporarily fallen on hard times which was the first sign something’s wrong with the system.

However, the emotional propaganda that the rightwing libertarian types put about that somehow it’s a persons own fault if they receive welfare is both short sighted, demeaning and wrong. Things can and do go wrong in the complicated process of living – welfare was set up to make sure that people didn’t suffer terminal harm when they did and to scaffold them back into a productive society before they are so damaged they can’t get back on the horse..

Yet something’s not right – its costing us more and more money and seemingly working less and less effectively. I suppose we all have an opinion on what needs to be done I think everyone agrees that ‘something’ needs to be done but the kicker is what?

So far – I have not heard one solid idea.

The situation is easier to define but one factor that’s often overlooked is that society itself has changed dramatically since the days of the great welfare reforms when these systems were established. Education is no longer free, families and societies are more volatile and the economy does not resemble anything like the one that people were used to at the birth of welfare. Even couples with reasonable jobs and in stable relationships struggle to generate enough income to purchase a house and survive with both working full time and then the hideous cost of childcare kicks in. Sure – there is a lot of junk in modern living that can be stripped out but the costs of the basics have increased beyond reason. Factor in a disability or an aged relative that needs care and its no wonder we are in trouble. During this time the state has also found it cant really afford pensions and anyone in long term care is better off ‘in the community’ (whatever that means) so that too has increased the pressure on families.

The job market has changed beyond all recognition as well. Industry training schemes, apprenticeships etc have as good as disappeared. Large state owned enterprises were not always effective businesses but did soak up a lot of people on the fringes and provided a steady supply of well trained ‘skilled’ workers. It was also a way for the younger people to be exposed (mentored) by older people from outside their own families. There were a lot of life lesson to be learnt taking the morning tea orders etc. The job market has expanded but there are fewer positions at the entry level into worthwhile careers. Those jobs are often filled by migrants who already have the skills required.

Social Welfare was established in a time when it was expected that a working mans wages could adequately support a home and a family. In a time when this is definitely no longer the case maybe we need to redefine what Social Welfare IS and what it can and should do? We need to be very careful here. Pressure is mounting on the economy and socially. This country cannot afford to cut out so many crippled and damaged people that we create an underclass that will swamp us all. There are no walls high enough to keep them out. We MUST find a fair and affordable way to glue this mess together.

I dunno what the answer is – and I’m pretty sure National and ACT don’t either.

[Ronin]

I dunno what the answer is – and I’m pretty sure National and ACT don’t either.

Neither do I. However, I have no doubt that the changes as mooted would work wonderfully for the 2% of benefit claimants they are aimed at. For a brief time. As you point out, the welfare system is now aimed squarely at a certain portion of society. People who have a legitimate reason to use the system are in effect all ready punished and find it difficult to get what they are entitled to. This will not make that any better.

Also, what are the long term effects? We now have two generations which have a large percentage of Bell ends for whom personal responsibility means nothing, there are no real consequences and become quite irritated when you point out the blindingly obvious to them. The only way that society can be improved in the long term is through the children. I struggle with the concept that Mother and children who are in legitimate need will suffer.

Ain't election years grand?

[scissorhands]

Men too, should be included with women and children when discussing genuine need.

Welfare or free subsistence money, for 5-15% of our unfortunates is an emotional ploy used by Natational to get back in. Look at the replies to this thread.

Dont we just love to have someone to burn. It brings us together like a family should

I will make an effigy of a ac/dc t shirt, backwards cap wearing, bong in hand, boy racer and stick him on my voodoo shelf next to Shonky and Helen.

You cant say I'm biased, all three use my tax money unwisely

[Banditbandit]

Yes to both.

So . why won't the Polytechs take you? We'll take just about anybody ... You must have done something pretty bad to not be acceptable - or you're just plain stupid ...

[marie_speeds]

However, the emotional propaganda that the rightwing libertarian types put about that somehow it’s a persons own fault if they receive welfare is both short sighted, demeaning and wrong. Things can and do go wrong in the complicated process of living – welfare was set up to make sure that people didn’t suffer terminal harm when they did and to scaffold them back into a productive society before they are so damaged they can’t get back on the horse..

Been down to the mall lately on DPB day? 18 - 23 year old girls with a couple of kids and boyfriend in tow and another one on the way, going from adult clothing store to adult clothing store spending up large...not a bloody kids clothing company bag in sight. :angry: And there is not just one of these young women there, the mall is crawling with them....

The welfare system was designed as a safety net for working people when they hit a rough spot...Shit happens and that is what it is for! However friends who have lost jobs etc tell me they have been offered no assistance and get told to stand down for a finite number of weeks, as they watch the young solo mum walk away with a $200 food grant from the next desk at WINZ..... Other friends through marriage/relationship breakups are put through the grinder just to get any sort of assistance and end up feeling haggled and guilty for doing so. Great saftey net we have!

Sadly many young women and men now see welfare as a career choice. Want a pay rise, have another baby!!!! Yep unexpected pregnancies happen....but every year, and um er I thought you were "sole". This should be the targetted group that reforms are aimed at. Getting them into training and giving them a future where they can provide for their children.

I believe the Government needs to take a harder stand and what is recommended is ridiculous, these young women will just keep popping out children before they ever have to work. Personally I believe that the Government should help with one unexpected pregnancy, but should a young sole mother choose to have another child whilst on the DPB then it should most definitely be not followed by an increase in the DPB. They should instead be encouraged to get into training, and provided with the means and support such as child care to do so. After all having children is a personal choice so people should learn to make that decsion responsibly and not expect others to pay for their choice...

The Welfare System was always intended as a safety net in times of hardship and not a lifestyle choice. It needs to be brought back to what it was originally intended for....unfortunately the Government has picked a crap time to do it, when the recession has caused many to lose jobs......

And for the record....I am a sole parent....I study part time and work two jobs to keep myself and my children...I do get child support from ex but not Working for families and it really pisses me off going to the mall on DPB day and paying taxes on my 2 jobs just so these young women get to shop in luxury whilst I go through the bargain racks....

[rustyrobot]

Well, I don't have the magic ability to be able to tell whether someone is on a benefit or not just by looking at them, but I do know that it is very hard to earn enough to support your children, pay rent and provide decent childcare while working part-time. What I really struggle with understanding is secondary tax. I have never seen any sort of attempt at justifying the reason behind making people who work two jobs pay higher tax. Surely this should be based entirely on your total income, not the amount of jobs that you work. Most people who work more than one job are getting paid sweet F all and are doing it out of neccesity.

[BoristheBiter]

Well, I don't have the magic ability to be able to tell whether someone is on a benefit or not just by looking at them, but I do know that it is very hard to earn enough to support your children, pay rent and provide decent childcare while working part-time. What I really struggle with understanding is secondary tax. I have never seen any sort of attempt at justifying the reason behind making people who work two jobs pay higher tax. Surely this should be based entirely on your total income, not the amount of jobs that you work. Most people who work more than one job are getting paid sweet F all and are doing it out of neccesity.

Secondary tax is higher because our tax is based on what you earn in a full year.
Job 1 $200 per week $25 tax.
job 2 $400 per week $59 tax
total $600 per week $98 tax.
See the tax difference, Sec tax takes this into account or at the end of the year you have a massive tax bill.

[marie_speeds]

Well, I don't have the magic ability to be able to tell whether someone is on a benefit or not just by looking at them

I can tell....dead giveaway when they are 18years old with two toddlers and a bun in the oven and shopping hardout on a Wednesday.....

and eaves dropping on conversations in the mall is an absolute shocker.....

"I really want to buy those $180.00 Nikes.... I will and then see my case manager for a food grant and tell her I had a big powerbill from the rain and using the dryer"

"If they make me work I'm just going to get pregnant again...."

"why you still in school bro....you should just come on the dole with us....it's sweet"

:facepalm:

[Genie]

I can tell....dead giveaway when they are 18years old with two toddlers and a bun in the oven and shopping hardout on a Wednesday.....

and eaves dropping on conversations in the mall is an absolute shocker.....

"I really want to buy those $180.00 Nikes.... I will and then see my case manager for a food grant and tell her I had a big powerbill from the rain and using the dryer"

"If they make me work I'm just going to get pregnant again...."

"why you still in school bro....you should just come on the dole with us....it's sweet"

:facepalm:

hmmm...somehow I feel this stems back to how these young females may have been raised themselves.

It sure is a sad state of affairs but I believe that each case needs to be addressed on it's merits. Not all on the DPB are this way inclined. Some actually work very hard to raise their children well. Some also work in part-time under the table jobs to make ends meet.


And then, there's me, I spent last year working part-time at my childrens' school as a teacher aid. I loved it, gave me a few extra dollars...filled up my love tank, gave me a real sense of acheivement. I notified WINZ as to my earnings, but alas, this year I have to pay back about $1500 - now tell me why should I go get off my butt for a measely $23.80 extra per week. I'll tell you why, because it's worth it....self esteem is worth more than dollars.

[marie_speeds]

hmmm...somehow I feel this stems back to how these young females may have been raised themselves.

It sure is a sad state of affairs but I believe that each case needs to be addressed on it's merits. Not all on the DPB are this way inclined. Some actually work very hard to raise their children well. Some also work in part-time under the table jobs to make ends meet.


And then, there's me, I spent last year working part-time at my childrens' school as a teacher aid. I loved it, gave me a few extra dollars...filled up my love tank, gave me a real sense of acheivement. I notified WINZ as to my earnings, but alas, this year I have to pay back about $1500 - now tell me why should I go get off my butt for a measely $23.80 extra per week. I'll tell you why, because it's worth it....self esteem is worth more than dollars.

I totally agree that there are very genuine cases...I have friends who through relationship breakups have had to rely on WINZ to help get themselves back on their feet....friends who lost their jobs and needed help..... The safety system working as it should.....Sadly Genie if you saw what I see every week at my local Westfield Mall in Henderson you would be gob smacked that the tax that you were paying trying to get back on your feet and provide for your children was being used and abused this way..... It is always a few bad apples like this that spoil it.....I am all for reform but it needs to be done properly....it needs to empower these young people and give them a sense of responsibilty and hope for the future....

[imdying]

Been down to the mall lately on DPB day? 18 - 23 year old girls with a couple of kids and boyfriend in tow and another one on the way, going from adult clothing store to adult clothing store spending up large...not a bloody kids clothing company bag in sight. :angry: And there is not just one of these young women there, the mall is crawling with them....If that is the case, then surely there's a job for you right there SMOKEU... benefit fraud investigator. All you have to do is follow young women around with a camera surreptitiously recording them. There ya go, a job that needs good keen men, and you already have the skills! Shame WINZ won't be able to give you a grant for the camera, too busy giving all their cash to lazy niggers (that's lazy niggers in the Deaker sense) that were never taught to keep their legs crossed.

[Paul in NZ]

hmmm...somehow I feel this stems back to how these young females may have been raised themselves.

If it was that black and white a solution would be easier but human beings have a nasty habit of not conforming to stereotypes.

The trouble is that one unplanned pregnancy introduces you into a world that many people and unprepared to deal with and they become trapped. Of course some are well prepared and embrace it fully.

Its NOT just women. Men (well males, they aint men) are out there acting as sperm donors left right and centre and then just walking away bitching about paying child support....

[Banditbandit]

Its NOT just women. Men (well males, they aint men) are out there acting as sperm donors left right and centre and then just walking away bitching about paying child support....

Yes - Men create solo mothers ... usually by walking out the door ...

[mashman]

I dunno what the answer is – and I’m pretty sure National and ACT don’t either.


Yes you do, you answered it all the way through that blingable "rave"... look :shifty:



So far – I have not heard one solid idea.

The situation is easier to define but one factor that’s often overlooked is that society itself has changed dramatically since the days of the great welfare reforms when these systems were established. Education is no longer free, families and societies are more volatile and the economy does not resemble anything like the one that people were used to at the birth of welfare. Even couples with reasonable jobs and in stable relationships struggle to generate enough income to purchase a house and survive with both working full time and then the hideous cost of childcare kicks in. Sure – there is a lot of junk in modern living that can be stripped out but the costs of the basics have increased beyond reason. Factor in a disability or an aged relative that needs care and its no wonder we are in trouble. During this time the state has also found it cant really afford pensions and anyone in long term care is better off ‘in the community’ (whatever that means) so that too has increased the pressure on families.

The job market has changed beyond all recognition as well. Industry training schemes, apprenticeships etc have as good as disappeared. Large state owned enterprises were not always effective businesses but did soak up a lot of people on the fringes and provided a steady supply of well trained ‘skilled’ workers. It was also a way for the younger people to be exposed (mentored) by older people from outside their own families. There were a lot of life lesson to be learnt taking the morning tea orders etc. The job market has expanded but there are fewer positions at the entry level into worthwhile careers. Those jobs are often filled by migrants who already have the skills required.

Social Welfare was established in a time when it was expected that a working mans wages could adequately support a home and a family. In a time when this is definitely no longer the case maybe we need to redefine what Social Welfare IS and what it can and should do? We need to be very careful here. Pressure is mounting on the economy and socially. This country cannot afford to cut out so many crippled and damaged people that we create an underclass that will swamp us all. There are no walls high enough to keep them out. We MUST find a fair and affordable way to glue this mess together.


Spot on... and then some.

Honestly. The solution is pretty fuckin simple...

[The Stranger]

hmmm...somehow I feel this stems back to how these young females may have been raised themselves.

It sure is a sad state of affairs but I believe that each case needs to be addressed on it's merits.

I agree on both counts.
But as Ronin points out (to paraphrase) we have a few generations whom take their cue from their parents - it is how they have been raised. So the cycle needs to be broken.

It would be nice to eveluate each case on it merits, but that's never going to happen the way it should. So the govt unfortunately must pass laws that affect all.

Some pain, whilst it may very well be unpleasent is going to have to be fealt by all if the effects to hit their target.


I note also marie_speeds comment about not increasing the DPB for subsequent children concieved when already on the DPB. I think that certainly has merit and is something the govt could implement whilst not creating a lot of colateral damage.

[Brian d marge]

Lets TRY and get this back on topic....

I don’t know about the reform of social welfare but I do have a very bad feeling about it.

I’m old enough for my grandparents to have lived through the great depression and heard 1st had the stories that didn’t make it into the history books. Its enough to say that terrible things can happen to prosperous, industrious people in these circumstances and we should all hope that we never get to live through a full blown depression. I’ve been gainfully employed since 13 years old and Vicki since 14. We have never had a single payment from Welfare and the one time Vicki was briefly unemployed (she was a Chef and the Hotel went bust) the Govt people were so bloody demeaning and unhelpful we never went back. They were blindingly good at helping socially inept or the criminal underclass (the ones with a leather vest habit) but just couldn’t deal with an ordinary person. Welfare was not apparently to help a normal person temporarily fallen on hard times which was the first sign something’s wrong with the system.

However, the emotional propaganda that the rightwing libertarian types put about that somehow it’s a persons own fault if they receive welfare is both short sighted, demeaning and wrong. Things can and do go wrong in the complicated process of living – welfare was set up to make sure that people didn’t suffer terminal harm when they did and to scaffold them back into a productive society before they are so damaged they can’t get back on the horse..

Yet something’s not right – its costing us more and more money and seemingly working less and less effectively. I suppose we all have an opinion on what needs to be done I think everyone agrees that ‘something’ needs to be done but the kicker is what?

So far – I have not heard one solid idea.

The situation is easier to define but one factor that’s often overlooked is that society itself has changed dramatically since the days of the great welfare reforms when these systems were established. Education is no longer free, families and societies are more volatile and the economy does not resemble anything like the one that people were used to at the birth of welfare. Even couples with reasonable jobs and in stable relationships struggle to generate enough income to purchase a house and survive with both working full time and then the hideous cost of childcare kicks in. Sure – there is a lot of junk in modern living that can be stripped out but the costs of the basics have increased beyond reason. Factor in a disability or an aged relative that needs care and its no wonder we are in trouble. During this time the state has also found it cant really afford pensions and anyone in long term care is better off ‘in the community’ (whatever that means) so that too has increased the pressure on families.

The job market has changed beyond all recognition as well. Industry training schemes, apprenticeships etc have as good as disappeared. Large state owned enterprises were not always effective businesses but did soak up a lot of people on the fringes and provided a steady supply of well trained ‘skilled’ workers. It was also a way for the younger people to be exposed (mentored) by older people from outside their own families. There were a lot of life lesson to be learnt taking the morning tea orders etc. The job market has expanded but there are fewer positions at the entry level into worthwhile careers. Those jobs are often filled by migrants who already have the skills required.

Social Welfare was established in a time when it was expected that a working mans wages could adequately support a home and a family. In a time when this is definitely no longer the case maybe we need to redefine what Social Welfare IS and what it can and should do? We need to be very careful here. Pressure is mounting on the economy and socially. This country cannot afford to cut out so many crippled and damaged people that we create an underclass that will swamp us all. There are no walls high enough to keep them out. We MUST find a fair and affordable way to glue this mess together.

I dunno what the answer is – and I’m pretty sure National and ACT don’t either.

Ive been looking into HOW the society changed , ( bloody well deleted it by accident so have to start again ! )
Sustainability , is the word I want to use and a return to the community ie building a less individualistic community structure . ( growing veges and Giving them to the old lady down the street )
I joke about passive resistance , but it has its point. watch the toys come out of the cot when a whole lot of people suddenly don't use ( generate a revenue stream for the governmental feed trough )

I doesn't mean going without , just means NOT using credit , and generating produce rather than service . ( hows those runner beans )

I don't know ..........., but what I do know is that We give things value and our values are misplaced ( why see my earlier post about Mexico as to why in the poor)

Our values system was shaped by Marketing ( Edward Bernays ) and focus groups tell the polys what to say , they ( the focus groups, who tend to be by default the voting block the pollys want ..ie Middle class.) in turn feel put upon by their lot in life , ( high taxes )
and then you get the labia effect ( not sure I ll have to look at me notes ) basically those who are in the group are safe , those who are perceived as outside the group are marginalized and the anger from problems within the first group is directed towards the 2nd group ( minority )

its not 100% clear in my head yet so its hard to type ... but roughly tis what happens ( I think) and you see it here on KB all the time ......

So ... look after you family and neighbors , and don't feed the trough in wellington , and never let a dollar escape the shores of NZ and Vote for the party that does the most for the community ....NOT the individual

IMHO

Stephen

[marie_speeds]

.....the labia effect

That is definitely part of the problem.....

[SPman]

..........basically those who are in the group are safe , those who are perceived as outside the group are marginalized and the anger from problems within the first group is directed towards the 2nd group ( minority )
......
IMHO

Stephen
You bin reading John Ralston Saul..........? Read "The Unconscious Civilization" - it's helping me to try and clarify a few ideas in my head.....

[Howie]

Yes - Men create solo mothers ... usually by walking out the door ...

Another sterotype/myth. It is not always the Man that walks out. Just as it not always the woman who ends up being the main care provider to the child/children.


If it was that black and white a solution would be easier but human beings have a nasty habit of not conforming to stereotypes.

The trouble is that one unplanned pregnancy introduces you into a world that many people and unprepared to deal with and they become trapped. Of course some are well prepared and embrace it fully.

Its NOT just women. Men (well males, they aint men) are out there acting as sperm donors left right and centre and then just walking away bitching about paying child support....

Thats if they have an income to pay child suport from, Incidently child support in it's current format is a joke.


I agree on both counts.
But as Ronin points out (to paraphrase) we have a few generations whom take their cue from their parents - it is how they have been raised. So the cycle needs to be broken.

It would be nice to eveluate each case on it merits, but that's never going to happen the way it should. So the govt unfortunately must pass laws that affect all.

Some pain, whilst it may very well be unpleasent is going to have to be fealt by all if the effects to hit their target.




I note also marie_speeds comment about not increasing the DPB for subsequent children concieved when already on the DPB. I think that certainly has merit and is something the govt could implement whilst not creating a lot of colateral damage.

The one problem with all this, and something that has only been mentioned here as a comment about values being passed on from generation to generation is that with the DPB in particular it is not about the Single Parent. It is about supporting and keeping Children out of poverty as much as possible. How do we turn around the Generational thing of welfare dependence?? Maybe by building a society where there are sufficient Jobs that most people can find a Job to do that earns them a living.

To my mind is it any wonder that our young ones (late teens to early twenties) are turning to having children to get more money out of the GOVT?
With youth unemployment running at 27%, and a lack of true entry level jobs with any training or advancement prospects.

Not all young people are academically inclined, or understand how the Business and the economy works, or where the money they get on a benefit originates from.

[neels]

Another sterotype/myth. It is not always the Man that walks out. Just as it not always the woman who ends up being the main care provider to the child/children.
Too true, most (not all) of the breakups involving people I know have been due to the woman booting the man out, after making sure they have the house/car/finances sorted to their advantage.

[The Stranger]

The one problem with all this, and something that has only been mentioned here as a comment about values being passed on from generation to generation is that with the DPB in particular it is not about the Single Parent. It is about supporting and keeping Children out of poverty as much as possible.

Yet as laudable as that goal of keeping children out of poverty is, the presnt system fails miserably (i.e. needs some form of reform)

We had a contract to upgrade all KFC stores in the Auckland area many moons ago.
Where alterations were minor we started at closing time and would have it open for business the next day. This may go on for several days.
Where the alterations were major and a store had to close we worked 24/7 to have it open again ASAP.
This work was staged over several months. Under NO circumstance were we allowed to close a store or even work in a store out of hours on or immediately before benefit day.
I assure you, it wasn't the kids that were befefiting from the benefit.

There are numerous examples. Check out the TAB and pubs on benefit day for example.

[The Stranger]

How do we turn around the Generational thing of welfare dependence?? Maybe by building a society where there are sufficient Jobs that most people can find a Job to do that earns them a living.

To my mind is it any wonder that our young ones (late teens to early twenties) are turning to having children to get more money out of the GOVT?
With youth unemployment running at 27%, and a lack of true entry level jobs with any training or advancement prospects.

Not all young people are academically inclined, or understand how the Business and the economy works, or where the money they get on a benefit originates from.

How would you propose we create those jobs?

[Howie]

Yet as laudable as that goal of keeping children out of poverty is, the presnt system fails miserably (i.e. needs some form of reform)

We had a contract to upgrade all KFC stores in the Auckland area many moons ago.
Where alterations were minor we started at closing time and would have it open for business the next day. This may go on for several days.
Where the alterations were major and a store had to close we worked 24/7 to have it open again ASAP.
This work was staged over several months. Under NO circumstance were we allowed to close a store or even work in a store out of hours on or immediately before benefit day.
I assure you, it wasn't the kids that were befefiting from the benefit.

There are numerous examples. Check out the TAB and pubs on benefit day for example.

But are you talking about Single parents? Unemployed people? or sickness Benefit people? or is it a minority of each of those doing what you see as wasting money on takeaways/betting, or drinking at a pub? Do they see that as there one little luxury in a world where they feel down trodden, and marginalised by the moral majority?

I do agree that present system isn't working, But how to reform it so that it is fair to those in need and to break the cycle of dependence I don't know.
What I do know from my personal experiences as a single parent from the time my youngest was in there first year of school is that it is easy to be marginalised by being different to Majority. (and no I never went on a Benefit)



How would you propose we create those jobs?

Now if I knew the answer to that I wouldn't have any worry’s as I could become a very wealthy Person.

What I do know is that if the present levels of high youth unemployment aren't solved fairly quickly with meaningful opportunities for displaced young people to feel positive about life then NZ is going to pay a very high price in a few years, and the current welfare bill well be a minor problem. You now have a large group of unemployed young people in the "ME Generation" that aren't learning about work ethics and feel like society is casting them aside as a problem.

My own answer is probably going to be to migrate overseas so that my Children have a better chance of starting down a meaningful career path. The current state of the NZ economy is only one of a Number of reason's for this choice.

[rainman]

I can't say I'm too upset now that my labour being "casualised" - can't ever imagine going back to a real job.
...
Reality is the world is about who you know. Build relationships, it goes a long way.
May I enquire where you are from?
...
You're still sounding like you're relying on someone else for your future.
Fucked if I would. I mean, isn't that the ultimate test of one's worth.
You rely on your abilities and wits to survive,

Sorry for the late reply, been busy at work and study.
Your point would make sense if it was as calvinistically simple as "work hard, get/keep job, rely on self". Unfortunately other factors have some impact too, like stupid and greedy US bankers, short-sighted politicians, idiot bosses, bigoted nationalistic executives, GFCs etc. And yes, sometimes missteps and mistakes. Preferring permanent to contract work is not a moral decision - it's just good economic sense. If I get a gig with a shit hot rate for 3 months, and have jack for the rest of the year, vs. steady 12 months at a lower rate, guess which one I'll pick? I have a family to feed - contract work normally carries a premium... I'd give that away in exchange for the certainty of a paycheck. Common sense.

I live in a society. When I want to eat, I use a supermarket, or a farmers market, or something. I don't go hunt all the food I eat. So why is depending on an economy to provide me fair exchange for my labour a bad idea? Doesn't mean I'm a whinging co-dependent, doesn't mean I don't always deliver more value than I'm paid. (Also I suck at sales and marketing/shameless self-promotion, but not at hard work and ability).

Of course the world is about who you know. I (now) have very good business connections and a big fat LinkedIn network. One of my points though is that "who you know" doesn't work for immigrants, and kiwis, although not necessarily racist, are pretty parochial. (I blame rugby). When the bad times arrive, it's the foreigners that get pushed under the bus first.

BTW you might enquire where I'm from but I might decline to answer, on the basis that the general response would be equal parts entirely predictable and disappointing. :)


They tend to be arrogant self serving biggots who think the world owes them a living.

I rest my case.


Do you have the tie to go with them though?

(weak attempt at Nazi joke)

Again. And that's just picking two of the obvious cases.




Go for it - boots 'n all. You'll get there.

There's some good advice in this thread for Mr SmokeU. I would be (pleasantly) surprised if he took it.


It's a bit hard to make a living when I can't find a job and when polytech don't want me.

Northtec and others run free entry-level horticulture courses with NO prerequisites but a pulse. Two days a week. Even give you a free textbook or set of boots, you just have to get yourself there on time for a few months, and not be too much of an arsehole. You are expected to learn a bit and pay attention, and to dig, prune, weed, plant etc. (Yes, real dirt, real spades, and sometimes it rains). Plenty of opportunity to show willing.

The people on the course are a real mixed bag, all ages, colours, social circumstances etc - so you get to learn how to interact with a range of people, which sounds like something you could work on. And even if you don't want to grow up to be a gardener, it shows future employers you got off your arse and did something (plus it will teach you to grow some of your own food, and how to learn in a different way to school). You will make some new friends and connections, and if you're not too much of a prick the instructor might even act as a referee for you.

Work outside is also proven to help with depression. (And if you're long term unemployed and not depressed, you should lay off the dak).



Here's a career plan for you.
...
I'll leave the rest up to you.

Arsehole washing? Jeez, you'd have to be desperate... :)

[Brian d marge]

You bin reading John Ralston Saul..........? Read "The Unconscious Civilization" - it's helping me to try and clarify a few ideas in my head.....

you bin readin , I know him from somewhere

Actually it ( i think from memory ) I got it from Uncle Sigmund .......

but yes once you realise that Bin lyin is actually the prez of ( insert your favorite country here ) ...it does all sort of make sense

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Another sterotype/myth. It is not always the Man that walks out. Just as it not always the woman who ends up being the main care provider to the child/children.



Thats if they have an income to pay child suport from, Incidently child support in it's current format is a joke.



The one problem with all this, and something that has only been mentioned here as a comment about values being passed on from generation to generation is that with the DPB in particular it is not about the Single Parent. It is about supporting and keeping Children out of poverty as much as possible. How do we turn around the Generational thing of welfare dependence?? Maybe by building a society where there are sufficient Jobs that most people can find a Job to do that earns them a living.

To my mind is it any wonder that our young ones (late teens to early twenties) are turning to having children to get more money out of the GOVT?
With youth unemployment running at 27%, and a lack of true entry level jobs with any training or advancement prospects.

Not all young people are academically inclined, or understand how the Business and the economy works, or where the money they get on a benefit originates from.

See my post on Mexico , there are schemes working that give people hope ,,,,,but the cost money and more importantly its a vote loser

Stephen

[Usarka]

See my post on Mexico , there are schemes working that give people hope ,,,,,but the cost money and more importantly its a vote loser


You'd probably find the Mexican parents are less likely to beat the crap out of the kids, lock them in the car and then go play the pokies for 10 hours.

[oneofsix]

You'd probably find the Mexican parents are less likely to beat the crap out of the kids, lock them in the car and then go play the pokies for 10 hours.

Really? :shit: how have you managed to avoid American TV and movies all your life? Oops that ignores Top Gear, sorry guys. But American propaganda aside Mexicans are humans so why should they be different? need emoticon of mexican asleep under his hat :laugh:

[Paul in NZ]

Ive been looking into HOW the society changed , ( bloody well deleted it by accident so have to start again ! )
Sustainability , is the word I want to use and a return to the community ie building a less individualistic community structure . ( growing veges and Giving them to the old lady down the street )
I joke about passive resistance , but it has its point. watch the toys come out of the cot when a whole lot of people suddenly don't use ( generate a revenue stream for the governmental feed trough )

I doesn't mean going without , just means NOT using credit , and generating produce rather than service . ( hows those runner beans )

I don't know ..........., but what I do know is that We give things value and our values are misplaced ( why see my earlier post about Mexico as to why in the poor)

Our values system was shaped by Marketing ( Edward Bernays ) and focus groups tell the polys what to say , they ( the focus groups, who tend to be by default the voting block the pollys want ..ie Middle class.) in turn feel put upon by their lot in life , ( high taxes )
and then you get the labia effect ( not sure I ll have to look at me notes ) basically those who are in the group are safe , those who are perceived as outside the group are marginalized and the anger from problems within the first group is directed towards the 2nd group ( minority )

its not 100% clear in my head yet so its hard to type ... but roughly tis what happens ( I think) and you see it here on KB all the time ......

So ... look after you family and neighbors , and don't feed the trough in wellington , and never let a dollar escape the shores of NZ and Vote for the party that does the most for the community ....NOT the individual

IMHO

Stephen

Look (to quote John Key) I agree.... The shift in values was one point I ignored in my rave because I couldnt capture my feelings about it in a short sentence.

I'll keep thinking about it but I think the shift in values is tied into the shorter technology cycles that exist now. Todays must have gizmo is old junk in 6 months...

[racefactory]

Northtec and others run free entry-level horticulture courses with NO prerequisites but a pulse. Two days a week. Even give you a free textbook or set of boots, you just have to get yourself there on time for a few months, and not be too much of an arsehole. You are expected to learn a bit and pay attention, and to dig, prune, weed, plant etc. (Yes, real dirt, real spades, and sometimes it rains). Plenty of opportunity to show willing.

The people on the course are a real mixed bag, all ages, colours, social circumstances etc - so you get to learn how to interact with a range of people, which sounds like something you could work on. And even if you don't want to grow up to be a gardener, it shows future employers you got off your arse and did something (plus it will teach you to grow some of your own food, and how to learn in a different way to school). You will make some new friends and connections, and if you're not too much of a prick the instructor might even act as a referee for you.



Fuck me! You even have to have a qualification to shovel shit and do someone's gardening now? How depressing.

[oneofsix]

Look (to quote John Key) I agree.... The shift in values was one point I ignored in my rave because I couldnt capture my feelings about it in a short sentence.

I'll keep thinking about it but I think the shift in values is tied into the shorter technology cycles that exist now. Todays must have gizmo is old junk in 6 months...

nah don't agree Paul. I don't think it is the short tech live cycles that has shifted the values, if anything they are a symptom but really I think it is more media spin than actually short life cycles, FFS they were talking fibre to the home back in the Post Office (80s for those who are too young, that's 1980s) and we still don't have it
We have gone from a system that valued God and country to one that values money. Think Boldger indicated the shift when he said the rich should be our new heros, screw Sir Ed and Colin Meads its all about back stabbing bastards like Richwite and Faye who will even rip off their own country. With the old values, like most religions, there was an element of honour the meek now it is squash them.

[The Stranger]

Sorry for the late reply, been busy at work and study.
Your point would make sense if it was as calvinistically simple as "work hard, get/keep job, rely on self". Unfortunately other factors have some impact too, like stupid and greedy US bankers, short-sighted politicians, idiot bosses, bigoted nationalistic executives, GFCs etc. And yes, sometimes missteps and mistakes. Preferring permanent to contract work is not a moral decision - it's just good economic sense. If I get a gig with a shit hot rate for 3 months, and have jack for the rest of the year, vs. steady 12 months at a lower rate, guess which one I'll pick? I have a family to feed - contract work normally carries a premium... I'd give that away in exchange for the certainty of a paycheck. Common sense.


My apologies for my lack of common sense, but in my defence I started my IT business about 15 yrs ago when I became too ill to work in my chosen and preferred vocation - construction. So I guess I just kind of thought that I was doing ok doing what I was doing all this time. I see now (thanks to your input) that my income was clearly insufficient to actually raise my 4 kids, pay off my mortgage, provide the 2 motorbikes in my carport or the waverunner in my garage. The 18' boat in my driveway and the 4x4 to beach launch it is just an illusion.

My point is, how do you get to explain to me that my way doesn't work when clearly I've survived doing what I have suggested? Good luck with that one, please excuse me if I don't believe you though.

If you do what everyone else does, what do you get?
You get what everyone else gets. Simple answer then, don't do what everyone else does. THINK OUTSIDE THE SQUARE! - Perhaps it's not race that holds you back, perhaps they see in you what I see in you?

[rainman]

My apologies for my lack of common sense...

No mate you've misunderstood. I have no criticisms for your approach to your life - it's yours after all - and if it works for you that's awesome. And I've been there a bit, and it's not completely foreign territory. There is no WRONG and RIGHT here: I'm just saying where I'm at at the moment I'm a bit weary and wouldn't object to a bit of security and lower stress in exchange for a small amount of dependence on an employer, rather than my own wits all the time. If I hadn't used up all my cash reserves last time through the wringer, and if I thought the future was all rosy and fluffy kittens etc, then maybe I'd take a different approach.

So, not saying your way doesn't work, but that it's isn't what I'm after. When I say "good economic sense", read "for me" on the end of it - there are very few absolutes in the world, particularly with money decisions.

And actually I don't think I'd even want the 4x4, waverunner and boat, tbh. (Although there are different things I might spend my money on).

[scissorhands]

I'm trying to think of how to reply proper, as difference and sameness in regard to the welfare state, has in my view, particular turns and eddies.

For years my main special interest (apart from geopathy, which is a type of typing particular to dwelling on different parts of the earths surface) has been people typing: body shapes, head shapes, hand shapes, genetics, astrology, esoteric sciences, and as of late mainstream neurological sciences.

Gypsies would view a mans thumb shape to make an instant assessment upon meeting

When a pack or herd shuns a member, much like the alpha female wolf will not allow other females to breed within her pack, they are forced to leave, stand on their own 4 legs, and start another pack. Nature.

Successful tribes like Spartans or Sioux, pull the boys away from mum at 12 and place them with men in a boot camp environment. They become well trained warriors at a young age.

Mother animals will not suckle certain offspring, preferring them to die as unfed babies, rather than grow and become a burden or problem, affecting the survival of the group. For the good of the many.

Regarding the welfare state, offspring that would not survive in the harsh world away from the state, are couched in comfort for the duration of their lives. Then they breed for extra cash and create more of the same

Inuit say the caribou are kept strong by the wolf. The wolf kills the weak, sick and old. Here we support them! The caribou herds rely on the wolf to maintain a strong genetic coding, as cruel nature does.

Degenerated aristocractic family lines, end with skinny humans with big heads. Some are clever as fuck from generations of bookish behaviours. IE shamans, Brahman and Ivy Leagueites

Leisure and lack of hard work, rich fancy foods, alcohol and promiscuity(including the clap) will produce offspring of dubious genetic health quality. I have the 'european foot' from winkle picker wearing ancestors, plus many other recessive traits from my aristocratic ancestors

Whereas the peasant lifestyle of hard work and sweating, simple bland foods and lack of guile( due to too busy working/not in a position to think up schemes) will produce a physically healthier baby.

The welfare state will produce a monetarily poor kind of degenerated aristocrat.

In that the castle and servants will be missing, but the birth right gift of free money drawn from the working masses will be the same. The leisure time will create boredom and drug/alcohol use, unused muscles and unused brain, with the effect of a deterioration to the genetic code of the family unit/pack/society in general.

The ineptitude of these genetic misfits, is not only be exasperated by the supportive state, but the state is largely responsible for the creation of said misfit, much like bad parenting.

Its all a contradiction and a mess of things.

When I attended NA meetings few years ago, many attendees were superb genetic specimens. Very healthy and strong.

If they were cattle in a sales yard, they would get top dollar over the average man on the street.

But as repressed addictive neurotics largely caused by their ADHD DRD4 7R allele and the welfare state, their latent talents and genetic strengths are hamstrung by a modern collective society forcing their individual drives and aspirations down a funnel of collective energies.

Like the rebellious teenager with great natural talents who goes off the rails, due to being forced into a group with all the other herd orientated teenagers, bad parenting and a one size fits all, factory farming machine we have chosen to call, the state.

Shame many of these potential laden antisocials cannot find expression in todays world. Or successful ones like Bob Jones or Richard Branson, Munroe or Britten, they create their own state of sorts.

[Brian d marge]

Look (to quote John Key) I agree.... The shift in values was one point I ignored in my rave because I couldnt capture my feelings about it in a short sentence.

I'll keep thinking about it but I think the shift in values is tied into the shorter technology cycles that exist now. Todays must have gizmo is old junk in 6 months...
Edward Bernays again.....

[Brian d marge]

You'd probably find the Mexican parents are less likely to beat the crap out of the kids, lock them in the car and then go play the pokies for 10 hours.
Scary how similar they are...its only a matter of time before NZ is the same

but without the tequila........

Stephen

[The Stranger]

I'm trying to think of how to reply proper, as difference and sameness in regard to the welfare state, has in my view, particular turns and eddies.

For years my main special interest (apart from geopathy, which is a type of typing particular to dwelling on different parts of the earths surface) has been people typing: body shapes, head shapes, hand shapes, genetics, astrology, esoteric sciences, and as of late mainstream neurological sciences.

Gypsies would view a mans thumb shape to make an instant assessment upon meeting

When a pack or herd shuns a member, much like the alpha female wolf will not allow other females to breed within her pack, they are forced to leave, stand on their own 4 legs, and start another pack. Nature.

Successful tribes like Spartans or Sioux, pull the boys away from mum at 12 and place them with men in a boot camp environment. They become well trained warriors at a young age.

Mother animals will not suckle certain offspring, preferring them to die as unfed babies, rather than grow and become a burden or problem, affecting the survival of the group. For the good of the many.

Regarding the welfare state, offspring that would not survive in the harsh world away from the state, are couched in comfort for the duration of their lives. Then they breed for extra cash and create more of the same

Inuit say the caribou are kept strong by the wolf. The wolf kills the weak, sick and old. Here we support them! The caribou herds rely on the wolf to maintain a strong genetic coding, as cruel nature does.

Degenerated aristocractic family lines, end with skinny humans with big heads. Some are clever as fuck from generations of bookish behaviours. IE shamans, Brahman and Ivy Leagueites

Leisure and lack of hard work, rich fancy foods, alcohol and promiscuity(including the clap) will produce offspring of dubious genetic health quality. I have the 'european foot' from winkle picker wearing ancestors, plus many other recessive traits from my aristocratic ancestors

Whereas the peasant lifestyle of hard work and sweating, simple bland foods and lack of guile( due to too busy working/not in a position to think up schemes) will produce a physically healthier baby.

The welfare state will produce a monetarily poor kind of degenerated aristocrat.

In that the castle and servants will be missing, but the birth right gift of free money drawn from the working masses will be the same. The leisure time will create boredom and drug/alcohol use, unused muscles and unused brain, with the effect of a deterioration to the genetic code of the family unit/pack/society in general.

The ineptitude of these genetic misfits, is not only be exasperated by the supportive state, but the state is largely responsible for the creation of said misfit, much like bad parenting.

Its all a contradiction and a mess of things.

When I attended NA meetings few years ago, many attendees were superb genetic specimens. Very healthy and strong.

If they were cattle in a sales yard, they would get top dollar over the average man on the street.

But as repressed addictive neurotics largely caused by their ADHD DRD4 7R allele and the welfare state, their latent talents and genetic strengths are hamstrung by a modern collective society forcing their individual drives and aspirations down a funnel of collective energies.

Like the rebellious teenager with great natural talents who goes off the rails, due to being forced into a group with all the other herd orientated teenagers, bad parenting and a one size fits all, factory farming machine we have chosen to call, the state.

Shame many of these potential laden antisocials cannot find expression in todays world. Or successful ones like Bob Jones or Richard Branson, Munroe or Britten, they create their own state of sorts.

An interesting post, but where does any of this leave us?
The only reason you are able to rationalise this is because one trait sets us apart from the animals that you refer to. The ability to reason.

Thus we are clearly different. Better or not, buggered if I know, but different none the less. If one considers what makes one species better adapted to their environment than another perhaps survival of the species is a suitable yardstick. So far it's man FTW. Why? our ability to reason is in general more important than physical strength or agility.

Many great advances in society have been made by those that perhaps would have perished had the Spartans had their way. How do you think the 300 would have fared against the guy who invented the machine gun?

So whilst someone may be the weakest link, they may have the strongest mind. Clearly to sacrifice one (be-it literal or figurative) based on your apparent take on genetic strength would be foolhardy.

So I find it hard to justfiy an action or cause for change in social welfare based on genetics. Though skewing the gene pool for financial gain as you point out also seems to be a rather stoopid idea too.


Personally I think it more pertinent to consider the old maxim - The more you tax an activity the less of it you get. The more you subsidise an activity the more of it you get. It REALLY is that simple.
We tax the rich and subsidise the poor. Anyone want to guess the outcome?

[imdying]

We tax the rich and subsidise the poor. Anyone want to guess the outcome?Equality? :innocent:

[The Stranger]

Equality? :innocent:

Ah no. The correct answer was "more labour voters".

[rainman]

Ah no. The correct answer was "more labour voters".

So what do you think we should do to get better equality and fairness? Sure as hell isn't following National or Act's policies...

[Oblivion]

So what do you think we should do to get better equality and fairness? Sure as hell isn't following National or Act's policies...

Capitalize on business to buy back all the things that are foreign owned. Use the money that is made from these ventures to pay back all the debt that New Zealand has. Allow Foreign investment, but not ownership. Once all of that is done and dusted, We can use money that is left over to drag those who do not have a reasonable income to support their own families, to a point where they can have a job that can support their families.

Pfft, Yeah Right :apint:

[The Stranger]

So what do you think we should do to get better equality and fairness? Sure as hell isn't following National or Act's policies...

Equality and fairness. Really? The first debate that would rage for weeks would be what constitutes fair - let alone equality. All it would need is a Maori and a Pakeha and the whole equality issue is out the window for good.

Anyone who honestly thought they had all the answers and was actually prepared to answer that question without access to detailed financial and statistical data or very careful consideration of all ramifications simply doesn't have a fooken clue what the issues are. So don't expect any kind of meaningful answer on this matter from me.

That said, the ideas and concepts that I have put forward in this thread have been general in nature and palatable or not, valid.

For example - the more you tax something, the less of it you get. The more you subsidies something the more of it you get. Now by all means prove me wrong. You may find examples where this doesn't work, for instance where nature has intervened etc, but from a purely economic perspective it is a maxim.

National, Act, Labour - I could give a rats really, it's my firm belief that we get what we deserve. I'll just sit back and laugh a bit harder no doubt after the next election when we get what we asked for and what we deserve - whomever that may be.

But like the maxim above - quite simply, poor vote Labour. Career politicians are in it for their careers - not you or I. How does a Labour politician keep its job?

[Swoop]

How does a Labour politician keep its job?
From evidence over the years, the answer has to be "Lying".

[scissorhands]

Anyone who honestly thought they had all the answers and was actually prepared to answer that question without access to detailed financial and statistical data or very careful consideration of all ramifications simply doesn't have a fooken clue what the issues are. So don't expect any kind of meaningful answer on this matter from me.

That said, the ideas and concepts that I have put forward in this thread have been general in nature and palatable or not, valid.


So Britten and Munroe's success was a fluke because they didnt have detailed bullshit or statistical data (read lies).

Yes yours are very palatable ideas, sweet like cakes, Polly want a cracker?

I just gave you some good fucken scientific clues and you then allude to leaving it to the professionals who know better than you or I. Leave it to the state eh:facepalm: to make the right decisions:facepalm:

Aint these fuckers the same band of monkeys who sit in a big tree and everyday throw shit at each other? (oh wait that might be KB) .... Interesting

[imdying]

So what do you think we should do to get better equality and fairness?Hold up there, you're getting waaaay ahead of yourself. What makes you think we want equality and fairness? What makes you think people deserve it? And what the fuck makes you think it's even the best way forward? There are plenty of people who are never going to be anything other that bottom feeding scum, why should be wasting our limited resources trying to elevate these people?

Just because they're people? :facepalm:

[scissorhands]

Psychopathy anyone?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM1-DQ2Wo_w

[imdying]

What, because I don't swallow that all people are equal bullshit? Stupid peasant.

[scissorhands]

What, because I don't swallow that all people are equal bullshit? Stupid peasant.

I'm just saying some people (govt agencies) look for hate speech as an indication of sociopathy

If I pranced around like a pit bull taking bites out of things I disagree with, will I finally be your equal?

[imdying]

If only... no, you'll never be my equal.

[Banditbandit]

What, because I don't swallow that all people are equal bullshit? Stupid peasant.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xd_zkMEgkI

[marie_speeds]

What, because I don't swallow......


oh........ :shutup::shutup::shutup::shutup::shutup:

[Brian d marge]

Hold up there, you're getting waaaay ahead of yourself. What makes you think we want equality and fairness? What makes you think people deserve it? And what the fuck makes you think it's even the best way forward? There are plenty of people who are never going to be anything other that bottom feeding scum, why should be wasting our limited resources trying to elevate these people?

Just because they're people? :facepalm:

your going to hate the answer .......

Yes

Because they are people

Stephen

[imdying]

oh........ :shutup::shutup::shutup::shutup::shutup::rofl:


your going to hate the answer .......

Yes

Because they are people

StephenHitler was a person, I don't doubt you're better than him. Maybe not at gassing Jews in shit, but you know, as a whole...

[Brian d marge]

:rofl:

Hitler was a person, I don't doubt you're better than him. Maybe not at gassing Jews in shit, but you know, as a whole...

He was just bullied at school ....

Stephen

Actually the more I listen to what they "Tried" to do minus the hype there were some good ideas , even copied American

[Banditbandit]

oh........ :shutup::shutup::shutup::shutup::shutup:

:rofl: Nothing wrong with a good swallow in the spring

[imdying]

Is that an African Swallow or a European swallow?

[Banditbandit]

No, I'm not falling for that one ... I saw what happened to the last man who tried to answer that one ...

[The Stranger]

So Britten and Munroe's success was a fluke because they didnt have detailed bullshit or statistical data (read lies).

Yes yours are very palatable ideas, sweet like cakes, Polly want a cracker?

I just gave you some good fucken scientific clues and you then allude to leaving it to the professionals who know better than you or I. Leave it to the state eh:facepalm: to make the right decisions:facepalm:
Aint these fuckers the same band of monkeys who sit in a big tree and everyday throw shit at each other? (oh wait that might be KB) .... Interesting

This is pretty much exactly why I declined to answer the question "So what do you think we should do to get better equality and fairness?"
In the absence of much fact as is reasonably practicable. It would require me to make certain assumptions (like you do) and then continue to make erroneous extrapolations (like you do) based on those assumptions.

But one thing I am pretty sure about now, is that it is better left to the professionals than some numpty that rushes to conclusions based on a whimsical notion - as demonstrated in your post above.

[Indiana_Jones]

Yosser!

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aObZJN9zDtA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Then they gave him a fucking job and he sank the bloody ship!

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2vp--AlWBrU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

-Indy

[mashman]

Personally I think it more pertinent to consider the old maxim - The more you tax an activity the less of it you get. The more you subsidise an activity the more of it you get. It REALLY is that simple.
We tax the rich and subsidise the poor. Anyone want to guess the outcome?

The Greek shall inherit the Earth?

[Banditbandit]

Phil the Greek?

[scumdog]

Phil the Greek?

No, Phil the Whole..:shutup:

[BoristheBiter]

I got an Indian ex-telemarketer selected over me for a job at Bunnings despite my having more experience and him only being able to name half the tools and shit because he was mouthier. All the people saying the dole is comfortable and should be cut etc should go and put their money where their mouth is: Try living on less than $200 a week assholes. It's almost impossible to do anything other than exist.

Have you ever thought that that is all your worth?
What an ungrateful little wanker you are. You do fuck all, get paid for it and have the audacity to complain about. Stop thinking that you are owed something get off your arse and better yourself if not shut the fuck up and stop bagging people that have made something of themselves.
Maybe if you got some qualifications you might be able to apply for ans get a job that pays better than $200 a week.

[rainman]

Equality and fairness. Really? The first debate that would rage for weeks would be what constitutes fair - let alone equality.
...
Anyone who honestly thought they had all the answers and was actually prepared to answer that question without access to detailed financial and statistical data or very careful consideration of all ramifications simply doesn't have a fooken clue what the issues are.
...
For example - the more you tax something, the less of it you get. The more you subsidies something the more of it you get. ...from a purely economic perspective it is a maxim.

But like the maxim above - quite simply, poor vote Labour. Career politicians are in it for their careers - not you or I. How does a Labour politician keep its job?

Same way any of them do. By being elected. No difference for Nats or Act or Peter Dunne or whoever, even the Greens. I think it's hard to attribute motive to people, decide what they're "in it for" without knowing them though - all you can infer is what they have to do to play by the rules of the game they're in. Not sure I understand your point.

But to your main content:
- yes we could analyse this to the ends of the earth first, but we'd achieve little. Rather better to focus on getting some shit done. And our role in that is to think about the kind of society we want, and elect the government most likely to give us that. (Or revolt... nah, just kidding. Never happen, here). Me, I want a better one than we have, where more people participate productively towards the common betterment of society.
- The tax comment is true as far as it goes, no arguments here, but for financial elements only. And that's not the whole cake. Is this an obscure attempt to justify lower income taxes on your part, in some "trickle down" scheme? 'Cos I can't see a way to tax indolence and unemployment. Taxing the crap out of ciggies, booze and KFC? No worries.
- There are a number of people who have had a good long scientific look at fairness and inequality, with real scientific methods and lots of data, and the conclude it's a Very Bad Thing for all of us, not just those at the bottom of the heap. But their conclusions are inconvenient, so typically get ignored.


Hold up there, you're getting waaaay ahead of yourself. What makes you think we want equality and fairness? What makes you think people deserve it? And what the fuck makes you think it's even the best way forward? There are plenty of people who are never going to be anything other that bottom feeding scum, why should be wasting our limited resources trying to elevate these people?

Just because they're people? :facepalm:

Yes, because they are people, part of our society, and our world. And see my comment above: it's the best way forward because the science says so. Yes, there are some scumbags and some real no-hopers, and some people that have very limited capabilities. (Some scumbags are poor, some rich, of course). But the alternative to providing them some support needs careful thought.

BTW, I love the fact that many well-meaning middle-NZ tryhard righties rail against the poor with the "wasting our limited resources" logic.I suspect the amount of money soaked up by the worthless needy at the bottom pales in comparison with the amount hosed off by the wealthy elite at the top.

[rainman]

Have you ever thought that that is all your worth?

Aren't you a nice person? I take it you know Mr Sable, then, or are you just assuming that because he's on a benefit he's worthless?


You do fuck all

Ah, clearly you must know him to be able to make a comment like that. Otherwise you'd just be a bigoted git....


Stop thinking that you are owed something

Sheesh! You must know him well - you even know what he's thinking!

No?


get off your arse

Ahem. I do believe he did, this being the point of his anecdote about Bunnings. Y'know, he tried to get a job, like you and others keep saying these filthy bennies should do. So how about a little support and encouragement? Kinda like The Stranger's punishment-and-reward model of taxation - perhaps you might see the relative benefit of helping a battling bene, and the total worthlessness of the more typical slag-and-bash fest (to anyone except you, and other insecure people, that is). People tend to do ore of what they get rewarded for. Just a thought.

Oh, and it's "you're", by the way. As in "all you're worth", or "You're part of the problem". It is short for "you are". Your is possessive, like as in "your meanness of spirit is disappointing"..

[avgas]

How does a Labour politician keep its job?
The same as any politician. By rigging a system up that says people have to vote for one of them and that a "non-vote" of confidence doesn't count......according to them.
Kinda scary as 20% of NZ didn't turn up last election, but then again when I caught some of that beehive stuff on TV seems that on average 20% of politicians don't turn up for work either.
Shame we have to pay the bastards whether they turn up or not.

[Brian d marge]

But to your main content:
- There are a number of people who have had a good long scientific look at fairness and inequality, with real scientific methods and lots of data, and the conclude it's a Very Bad Thing for all of us, not just those at the bottom of the heap. But their conclusions are inconvenient, so typically get ignored.

A nice man called F.A Hayek did just that and a whole lot of big countries took him serious like ......


BTW, I love the fact that many well-meaning middle-NZ tryhard righties rail against the poor with the "wasting our limited resources" logic.I suspect the amount of money soaked up by the worthless needy at the bottom pales in comparison with the amount hosed off by the wealthy elite at the top.

I think 24 billion in 2010 http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/financialstatements/yearend/jun10/15.htm

health ..13 billion
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/forecasts/befu2011/093.htm



Social security and welfare: $24.2 billion
Health: $12.7 billion
Education: $12.4 billion

Thats a hell a lot of KFC

Next question Why ???? is it larger

Stephen

BTW

who bought what in 1999 http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/assets/saleshistory

[rainman]

I think 24 billion in 2010
...
Why ???? is it larger


About $10b of that is super...
http://wheresmytaxes.co.nz/

Good linky to the asset sales info, btw. Thanks.

[Brian d marge]

About $10b of that is super...
http://wheresmytaxes.co.nz/

Good linky to the asset sales info, btw. Thanks.

Be interested to see the updated asset sales for 2010.... So its the old people that cost the money ..Right 240573

Nail em up ....Nail em up

Stephen

[The Stranger]

But to your main content:
- yes we could analyse this to the ends of the earth first, but we'd achieve little. Rather better to focus on getting some shit done. And our role in that is to think about the kind of society we want, and elect the government most likely to give us that. (Or revolt... nah, just kidding. Never happen, here). Me, I want a better one than we have, where more people participate productively towards the common betterment of society.
- The tax comment is true as far as it goes, no arguments here, but for financial elements only. And that's not the whole cake. Is this an obscure attempt to justify lower income taxes on your part, in some "trickle down" scheme? 'Cos I can't see a way to tax indolence and unemployment. Taxing the crap out of ciggies, booze and KFC? No worries.


Hmm, you seem hell bent on making this about Labour and National ACT.

When you asked "So what do you think we should do to get better equality and fairness?" I had anticipated you were asking my recipe for a better fairer system, but I see from your post above it was actually a multi choice question.

An example of what I would do would be to create many additional jobs - so an answer to my question to Howie in post 201.
It's quite simple. Get rid of company tax and increase income tax across the board and GST to 20% to recover the lost income tax take.
Can you imagine how that would go down if people stick to their ideologies?
But let's look at that.
Under the present system my company sells you KFC. Who pays the tax?
That's right you guessed it, you do right. My company only collects it, processes it and passes it on to the government. So hello, you're paying the tax now, like it or not. Not the company.

So now lets implement a 0% company tax.
I'm not paying tax now, so KFC goes down in price by 30%. You buy KFC 30% cheaper but your income tax has gone up by the same dollar value so nothing has changed really.

Except you argue - companies are greedy and wont drop their prices, they'll just make big fat profits and it will cost us more.
True - they exist to be "greedy" that's what a company does.
Many (say take away foods) will be constrained by competition and will have no option but to drop their prices. Many will see stiff competition from other entrants when they see the profits to be made in field and some (mostly monopolies or near monopolies) will not have sufficient competition to force them to drop prices.
But let's look at that.
Now that I'm making big fat profits what do I do with the money my business makes?
If I return it to me I get taxed at the now higher income tax rate. What to do, what to do? How do I avoid that damned higher rate. Well I keep the profit in the company and, and, and - I know, I'll open a new KFC store and make twice the money, that'll offset the additional income tax and then some. But I'll need more staff. Where do they come from? The unemployed of course. NOW the govts outgoings go down, therefore their need for tax take reduces. Not only does the need for tax take reduce due to people not needing the dole, but they are adding to the tax take now - double whammy!

But wait, there's more.
Foreign company x has heard about a land of milk and honey where there is no tax. WTF? really, no tax. That's right. So why set up in Australia and pay tax when you can set up in NZ and pay no tax. Hmm, let me think?? Nope can't think of a reason.
But they will need employees right. Where will they come from?
Can you imagine the downward pressure on unemployment and upward pressure on wages under such a scenario?

Ok, now to be sure, there are many holes in this scenario which would need plugging up. Hence my initial reluctance to get into it from the get go. Hell it may be better to look at tax breaks to companies for additional employment. As noted, every new job is a double helping to the poor tax payer.
Lets face it, straight to zero would be a disaster - it would need to be staged and in reality would never reach zero.

So, put your ideology aside and once again - think outside the square!!
If we keep doing the same thing every time are we going to get a different result?

Oh and The maxim "the more you tax something, the less of it you get. The more you subsidies something the more of it you get." refers quite simply to the fact that we tax the rich and subsidise the poor. In doing so, we get fewer rich and more poor.
If we continue to do so over a long period it becomes unsustainable. It really is that simple.
This is regardless of if National, ACT, Labour or any other party.

[James Deuce]

But wait, there's more.
Foreign company x has heard about a land of milk and honey where there is no tax. WTF? really, no tax. That's right. So why set up in Australia and pay tax when you can set up in NZ and pay no tax. Hmm, let me think?? Nope can't think of a reason.
But they will need employees right. Where will they come from?
Can you imagine the downward pressure on employment and upward pressure on wages under such a scenario?



Umm OK, you really can't see what will happen there? That will drive wages down. Employment stats will improve but your plan will simply accelerate NZ's downward spiral into a cheap source of skilled labour.