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husaberg

2nd February 2014, 12:27

never seen one totally similar in concept....... although the Early RC125 and so forth had a cunning play on the twin shock with rockers but mounted conventionally the funny home made Maico engined thingy-maybobs had one similar to the honda as well i can't remember what they were called?

Tis was the Kramer........

husaberg

2nd February 2014, 19:59

never took much notice of this before.......
Panigale

F5 Dave

3rd February 2014, 08:48

Yeah all very cool & all, but not much use on an NF4 sadly. so small that anything tricky added on would still find a frame bearer in the way.

husaberg

3rd February 2014, 11:16

Yeah all very cool & all, but not much use on an NF4 sadly. so small that anything tricky added on would still find a frame bearer in the way.

Unless you went inside it? The inner side rather than the inside of course..........
I finally got arround to mock fitting the NSR125 engine to the NF4 the other week and although it fits without to much carb shock drama, it needs bloody engine plates which look half arse.I had a closer look at a pic i had posted of a NSR150/NF4 and i see that's what they did as well.
I think it would slip beautifully into a NX4. They aren't exactly falling out of trees though........

Yow Ling

3rd February 2014, 14:45

Unless you went inside it? The inner side rather than the inside of course..........
I finally got arround to mock fitting the NSR125 engine to the NF4 the other week and although it fits without to much carb shock drama, it needs bloody engine plates which look half arse.I had a closer look at a pic i had posted of a NSR150/NF4 and i see that's what they did as well.
I think it would slip beautifully into a NX4. They aren't exactly falling out of trees though........

There is plenty of NX4's , just the price is the problem

husaberg

3rd February 2014, 15:19

There is plenty of NX4's , just the price is the problem

True but if there was more of them they would be cheaper.......... before Bert chimes in. Yes there is another option.
Has anyone ridden an NF4 and NX4 back to back, do the NX4's actually handle any better.........I know they have racier steering geometry and hopefully more sophisticated suspension, but does it actually handle any better?

F5 Dave

3rd February 2014, 16:49

Just plates. Its a bucket. it will never get finished if it is engineering excellence. Function before form as well.

husaberg

3rd February 2014, 17:03

Just plates. Its a bucket. it will never get finished if it is engineering excellence. Function before form as well.

Form follows function (ok maybe mostly fashion as well.)
It is a F4 and is an almostly Honda Dave. It has to look right.

I do kind of realise it won't ever be as pretty a Cagiva or Bimota.

F5 Dave

3rd February 2014, 18:09

And it will win no races in the garage.

Bert

3rd February 2014, 19:28

True but if there was more of them they would be cheaper.......... before Bert chimes in. Yes there is another option.
Has anyone ridden an NF4 and NX4 back to back, do the NX4's actually handle any better.........I know they have racier steering geometry and hopefully more sophisticated suspension, but does it actually handle any better?

Ouch...

Well maybe Regs and or Scotty can add some detailed handling feedback. Having raced back to back both versions...

You have everything you need so get on with it.

husaberg

3rd February 2014, 19:34

Ouch...

Well maybe Regs and or Scotty can add some detailed handling feedback. Having raced back to back both versions...

You have everything you need so get on with it.

Oh it wasn't meant to be an ouchy Brent? But yes, Dave made the point with his pointed point. i think he might have tried to poke me with it too......

Yow Ling

3rd February 2014, 20:23

I do kind of realise it won't ever be as pretty a Cagiva or Bimota.

Or an FXR .

husaberg

3rd February 2014, 20:27

Or an FXR .

Where is Kicka? that was his prompt to rant on about custom cruiser Gn's being the bling bling.......

Grumph

3rd February 2014, 20:33

Where is Kicka? that was his prompt to rant on about custom cruiser Gn's being the bling bling.......

i'll do it for him...A bike on track - ANY bike on track - beats a technical marvel stuck in the workshop.......

Get out your junior hacksaw and make those plates.

Kickaha

3rd February 2014, 21:34

i'll do it for him...A bike on track - ANY bike on track - beats a technical marvel stuck in the workshop.

Oi Husaberk :finger: wot he said:yes:

husaberg

3rd February 2014, 21:53

Oi Husaberk :finger: wot he said:yes:

thought you said you couldn't be baited........

husaberg

7th February 2014, 19:31

YZR500 replica chassis. Pic one
For Pic two I will post a nice pic of a Rainey era (luca cladora)Yam as well.
oh bugger to big to attach,
Ok will resize using a code........
Save onto kb,
Then download onto computer.
Then reattach as an attachment.
Then delete from KB
I think i need a lie down......
Maybe it would have been easier to look for a smaller pic but it is a bloody nice pic.
Click on it to see.............

F5 Dave

8th February 2014, 08:20

Ohh, Yamaha goodness.

Ocean1

8th February 2014, 09:22

Ohh, Yamaha goodness.

The welding isn't that good. And it looks like some distortion is one of them panels...

F5 Dave

8th February 2014, 13:01

More the one on the right, but heck if I'd made the replica I wouldn't be unhappy to find an RZ V4 to squeeze in it.

husaberg

8th February 2014, 14:36

More the one on the right, but heck if I'd made the replica I wouldn't be unhappy to find an RZ V4 to squeeze in it.

The more i look at a RZ500 the more i am convinced it is a bit of poo.
Neil could do far bettererer.
only need to make a set of cases to suit and a suitable primary.
the rest of the stuff like cranks cylinders to suit etc are freely available
Not sure what gearbox would suit.
But the result would be better than a modded RZ or RG.

When you have a few minute Neil maybe during smoko or something whip us up a few of these cases would ya<_<
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=293391&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1391757801http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=293392&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1391757801http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=293393&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1391757817
these are Cagiva but from what i understand they are so Yamaha the parts are interchangeable.
I posted the Yamaha cases on this thread i think.(oh it wasn't) have now though.....
I always loved the Yamaha in Marlboro colors.

Yamaha Photobomb
i will edit it of course.

<img src="http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.twostrokeshop.com/YZR500_85.jpg&sa=X&ei=cDRGUtevH4SdkgWShoGABQ&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNENCVWra2L0f6XRWR75tA4Dg7ZBmA" height="610px"/><img src="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6031/6849104564_ed7ea57745.jpg" height="610px"/>
<img src="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6112/6995207477_6c5f72ec27.jpg" height="730px"/><img src="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6118/6849022902_dd783cf3ba.jpg" height="730px"/>

<img src="http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.d-mengineering.co.uk/newshop/productimages/display/SS-image-2011-01-23-4d3c1cfd844b1.jpg&sa=X&ei=ljZGUqn8D4zckgWViYGgBQ&ved=0CAkQ8wc4tQI&usg=AFQjCNGNknS8f64y-gbusb7WYOOZHA8Hxg" height="400px"/><img src="http://www.greenhamracing.supanet.com/500%20engine%201.jpg" height="400px"/>
<img src="http://www.greenhamracing.supanet.com/500%20engine%202.jpg" height="370px"/><img src="http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.greenhamracing.supanet.com/500%20engine%201.jpg&sa=X&ei=XDtGUtyPLYSlkwWCuoHoDA&ved=0CAkQ8wc4FQ&usg=AFQjCNHebCpRVZQHHd_Uf4Y3KIfCbo5EWA" height="370px"/>
<img src="http://www.modellismo.net/forum/attachments/statico-reference/73290d1266758378-refs-moto-yamaha-yzr500-ow70-ow70-30.jpg" height="440px"/><img src="http://www.modellismo.net/forum/attachments/statico-reference/73291d1266758378-refs-moto-yamaha-yzr500-ow70-ow70engine1.jpg" height="440px"/>
<img src="http://www.modellismo.net/forum/attachments/statico-reference/73292d1266758378-refs-moto-yamaha-yzr500-ow70-ow70-31.jpg" height="510px"/><img src="http://www.modellismo.net/forum/attachments/statico-reference/73294d1266758502-refs-moto-yamaha-yzr500-ow70-ow70engine3.jpg" height="510px"/>

<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.1.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.2.jpg" height="420px"/>

<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.3.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.4.jpg" height="420px"/>
<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.5.jpg" height="740px"/><img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.6.jpg" height="740px"/>
<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.7.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.8.jpg" height="420px"/>

<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.9.jpg" height="745px"/><img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.10.jpg" height="745px"/>
<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.11.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6036/6849005106_8db4298544.jpg" height="420px"/>

<img src="http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/jackson500/YZR500ENGINECASE1.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/jackson500/YZR500ENGINECASE2.jpg" height="420px"/>

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW61_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>

The OW61 was not only the first YZR500 to mount a V4 engine, it was also the first ever by any manufacturer for a two-stroke GP500 machine. The other definitive features of this model were its innovative lateral rear suspension with the shock positioned at a 90-degree angle to the direction of forward motion and a unique frame that eliminated the under-loop, which would become the forerunner of Yamaha's famous Deltabox frame. This was the model that pioneered the two-stroke V4 engine that would eventually become the standard in GP500 racing. After winning the season opener of the '82 GP on the square-four OW60, Roberts switched to a new V4 engine OW61 for round two at Salzburgring. In this, the OW61's debut race, Roberts finished third. Riding the OW61 at round four in Jarama, Roberts beat his personal best lap time by a full second on his way to the win.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW70N_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OW70 (1983)- Arrival of the Deltabox frame
The 1983 model YZR500 (OW70) was the second-generation V4 powered machine and the first to adopt Yamaha's new aluminium Deltabox frame and 17-inch front wheel. Further maturation of the previous year's OW61 and an increase in inertial mass for the flywheel helped handling stability, while overall competitiveness was also improved with the adoption of a new rear suspension (mid-season change from bell crank type to bottom-link type) and revision of frame rigidity. This year Kenny Roberts on the OW70 and Freddie Spencer on the three-cylinder Honda NS500 staged a head-to-head battle that continued to the final round, were Spencer won the title by a hair's breadth. It had been one of the greatest showdowns in GP history with each rider winning six rounds and three second places and each winning six pole positions. Roberts finished this '83 season a close second while Eddie Lawson also riding the OW70, finished fourth.
<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW76_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OW76 of 1984
OW76 (1984) - Lawson's first title
The OW76 spec that appeared in 1984 was characterized by the change from the rotary disc valve intake system used up until the OW70 to a crankcase reed valve system. By making effective use of the crankcase reed valve intake that was coming into use at the time with a plastic resin reed, this model achieved smoother power development and better starting character. The system adopted a structure in which the rotary disc valve drive axis positioned on the upper portion of the crankcase was replaced by a reed chamber. At the time, Yamaha was already using a crankcase reed valve system on its Mate utility motorcycle series, but its adoption on the YZR500 brought a whole new image to this technology. In his second year of GP competition, Eddie Lawson had become Yamaha's ace rider, winning the season opener, the South Africa GP, and going on to claim his first title with four wins during this year's series.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW81_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OW81 (1985-86) - Opposed revolution twin cranks
The OW81 spec used in 1985 and '86 adopted a V4 engine completely redesigned with the aim of making the engine a member contributing to handling stability. On the conventional V-4 engine, both crankshafts were made to revolve in the direction of forward motion. With the OW81, however, the two shafts were spun in opposite directions (rear shaft in the in the direction of forward motion and front shaft in the opposite direction) with the drive force being drawn from the rear shaft. This minimized the gyro moment effect on handling stability, thus contributing to outstanding handling stability. In '85 Lawson rode this machine to second place in the season ranking and Christian Sarron finished third on it as well. The further evolved '86 version featured boosted power output (140PS to 145PS) optimized dimensions and a new seat shape. On this machine Lawson won back the GP title, his second. Meanwhile, in the All Japan Championships, Tadahiko Taira won his third consecutive 500cc title on this machine, which would remain the base model as the YZR500 continued to evolve into the '90s.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW86_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
Wayne Rainey's 1987 OW86
OW86 (1987)- Yamaha's fourth manufacturers title
To accommodate the new noise regulation went into effect in the GP from the 1987 season, changes were made in the exhaust system, including a lengthening of the tail pipe to reduce the noise level from 110 to 105 decibels. At the same time, the maturation of the model continued with improvements like a revised engine position, increased radiator capacity and improved cooling performance with an expansion of the air duct. The power output was also boosted from over 145PS to over 148PS. This year (1987) the first 500cc class Japan round of the World GP at the Suzuka circuit and Randy Mamola won it in the rain on the OW86. That season Lawson won six rounds and Mamola three to give Yamaha its fourth manufacturers championship.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW98_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OW98 (1988)- Right-side twin mufflers
On the OW98 that made its appearance in 1988 the V bank was opened from 60 to 70 degrees. This change was made to gain more area for the reed valve itself and more space to increase intake volume than the original V4 block which had been designed for the rotary disc intake system. Also, a new exhaust layout was adopted in which the exhaust pipes from the lower (front) two cylinders were crossed once under the engine and then both brought out on the right rear side. To accommodate this, a left-right asymmetrical rear arm with a large curve on the upper right side was adopted.

This year, Lawson won seven rounds of the GP500 series to claim his third title. Kevin Magee and Wayne Rainey also won one round each on the YZR500 to give Yamaha its third consecutive and fifth overall manufacturers title. In the twelfth round of the series at Donington Park, Rainey won on a YZR500 after adopting a carbon front disc brake for the first time.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWA8_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWA8 (1989) - Data-recording device introduced
The OWA8 that appeared in 1989 was characterized by the introduction of a full-fledged data recording function that recorded data from sensors about the running conditions of the machine throughout the duration of its run. With its ability to record data about a wide range of factors including engine rpm, bike speed, suspension stroke, steering angle during turns, combustion chamber temperature and detonation, this machine proved to be extremely helpful in providing numerical information that could be shared by the engineers, mechanics, developers and riders to help in determining directions for settings. This year Lawson scored three wins to finish the season in second place, followed by Christian Sarron in third. Meanwhile, in the All Japan Championships, Norihiko Fujiwara grabbed his third consecutive season title on this machine.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWC1_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWC1 (1990) - Rainey wins world title
The OWC1 spec that Yamaha rolled out in 1990 had improved handling stability due to dimension changes including a head pipe position that was closer to the rider than the conventional machine and a lower caster angle. The power output was also increased to 155PS from 150PS for the previous year's model. On this machine Rainey won a total of seven rounds to claim his first GP title. This contributed to Yamaha's sixth manufactures championship. This OWC1 would also be the base machine that Yamaha would offer to European constructors in 1992 in the form of engine sales and chassis data as a move to stimulate the sport of motorcycle racing and encourage technology sharing. This would lead to Harris Yamaha and ROC Yamaha entering machines based on the OWC1.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWD3_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWD3 (1991)- The machine Rainey rode to title two
Due in part to the new regulation that required 500s to weigh more than 130 kg, the OWD3 spec introduced in 1991 sought to increase competitiveness with the adoption of an electronic-control suspension (CES). It also adopted a full-fledged adjustable pivot assembly designed to hold the influence of return force from the road surface on the chain tension to a minimum while also enabling setting adjustments to accommodate different course conditions. Rainey won six rounds of the '91 series on this machine to claim his second world title. John Kocinski also won one round to help bring Yamaha its seventh manufacturers title. This OWD3 was also ridden to a series title in the All Japan Championships by Peter Goddard. This gave Yamaha the greatest number of titles of any maker in the 13-year history (1981-1993) of the All Japan 500cc class with eight.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWE0_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWE0 (1992) - Rainey's third title
The OWE0 that appeared in 1992 boasted a power output of 160PS, up from 155PS the year before. Also, based on the premise that torque character is the product of a combination of combustion torque and inertial torque from the revolution of the crankshaft, a new phased simultaneous combustion interval (the diagonally opposed cylinders fired simultaneously at a 0-degree and 90-degree interval as opposed to the previous 180-degree interval) was adopted from the ninth round of this year's series, the Hungary GP. This improved traction in the low- to mid-speed range and power coming out of the turns. On this machine Rainey won his third title in as many years. Kocinski also scored one win and finished the season in third place.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWF2_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
Rainey's OWF2 of 1993
OWF2 (1993)- Adopting an extruded aluminium frame
In order to accommodate a new engine with boosted power output of 170PS (160PS for the previous year), the OWF2 that Yamaha rolled out in 1993 featured a frame designed for greater rigidity. The aluminium used in main frame was changed from three-section extruded stock that provided much greater rigidity, especially with regards to lateral torsion. Rainey rode this machine from the opening round of the '93 series to round seven, the Dutch GP, scoring wins in the Malaysia GP and the Japan GP and contributing to Yamaha's eighth manufacturers title. From round eight, Rainey rode a ROC Yamaha machine (with the same type of frame as the OWC1) constructed in Europe with Yamaha technological assistance.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWF9_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWF9 (1994-95) - Forced air box boosts performance
The 1994 model OWF9 was the machine that Luca Cadalora rode throughout that year's GP series to second place for the season with wins at the U.S. GP and the Barcelona GP. While the OWF2 spec of the previous year had featured an extruded aluminium frame, further pursuit of power development and rigidity balance factors led to a return to a panel stock aluminium frame with this model. Based on development efforts to improve the aerodynamic characteristics over preceding models led to a cowl design that shifted the air intake mouth toward the inside. Norick Abe became a full-time competitor on this machine starting from this year's British GP.

A further matured version of the OWF9 was also used in the '95 season, characterized by features like a full-fledged ram-air function for the air box produced at Yamaha's London R&D base, Activa, that increased intake performance.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWJ1_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWJ1 (1996) - Adoption of a 54mm bore piston
The major new feature of the OWJ1 spec YZR500 introduced in 1996 was the new engine with a 54mm bore. By squaring off the bore x stroke at 54mm x 54mm, compared to the previous 56mm x 50.6mm, this engine succeeded in boosting top speed through a better balance of power and torque character based on total intake/exhaust efficiency rather than simply raising rpm. This model was also characterized by its forged "powder metal" piston with excellent heat resistance qualities and a new frame design that eliminated the seat rail. Riding this machine, Norick Abe shaved an amazing two seconds off the fastest lap time at the Japan GP preliminaries and went on to win the race for his first GP victory. Loris Capirossi also won a round this year on the OWJ1 at the Australian GP.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWH0_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWH0 (1997) - V bank widened to 75 degrees
On the OWH0 spec introduced in 1997, the "V" bank of the engine was widened from 70 to 75 degrees in order to allow an increased air box capacity. A "T" type exhaust port (conventional three-port to two-port) known for its excellent pick-up characteristics was also tested on this model, along with adoption of a new crank assembly spec and a higher drive shaft position for improved handling stability. On this machine Cadalora mounted the winners podium twice with second place finishes and twice with third place to finished the season ranked sixth, while Abe ranked seventh.
(The OWH0 and OWJ1 were actually developed simultaneously and their eventual years of actual GP use happened to come in reverse of the alphabetical order of their code names.)
<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWK1_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
Abe's 1998 OWK1
OWK1 (1998-99) - Non-leaded arrives
The 1998 YZR500 (OWK1) was a non-leaded gasoline spec in line with the revised GP regulation. The combined effect of improvements including revised compression ratio, new muffler shape, change to a Keihin carburettor (previous models used Mikuni), reduction of crankcase power loss and boosted cooling capacity served to achieve outstanding performance. Also the angle of the engine's V bank was returned to 70 degrees. Despite the non-leaded spec, this machine produced course records on many of the GP courses. Ridden by Jean-Michel Bayle, Norick Abe, Simon Crafar and Regis Laconi, the machine continued to mature through the season, with Crafar winning his first GP race on it at the British GP.

In '99, Max Biaggi and Carlos Checa joined the Yamaha riders and the OWK1 continued to mature, with Biaggi, Abe and Laconi each winning one round this year. On Biaggi's machine, wings were added on the right and left sides of the front cowl in mid-season to improve road contact feeling for the front wheel, but due to the problem of balance with the down-force characteristics during full banking on turns, they were removed again in the latter half of the season.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWK6_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWK6 (2000)- Yamaha's ninth manufacturers title
The OWK6 model of 2000 was a further evolution of the OWK1 of the previous year and it achieved higher levels of acceleration and top speed performance due to improvements including new cylinder, cylinder head and exhaust pipe specs and revision of several parts of the performance-boosting engine management system. Also review of the dimensions and geometry led to a new cowl shape. With Garry McCoy's three wins, Biaggi's two and Abe's one, this machine brought Yamaha its ninth manufacturers championship after a seven-year hiatus.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWL6_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWL6 (2001)- Biaggi second in championship
The OWL6 spec of 2001 took the existing model as its base and added revisions relating to driveability including new cylinder, cylinder head and exhaust pipe specs, changes in the performance characteristics of the YPVS system and mapped ignition timing control that contributed to increased acceleration and top speed performance. Revisions in the dimensions also added to the pick-up coming out of the turns. This model also featured long and short type rear arm options to fit the characteristics of the different riders. Biaggi scored three wins this year to place second in the season ranking.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWL9_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWL9 (2002)- The 28th and last generation YZR500
Of all the YZR500 models that had actually competed in GP races since its debut in 1973, the OWL9 that appeared in 2002 represented the 28th and last generation model. The engine was positioned farther forward than that of the OWL6 of the previous year while the centre of gravity was also raised slightly in order to secure the desired front weight distribution. Weight was reduced through full-fledged thinning efforts on the rear arm. In this year's GP regulation that had two-stroke and four-stroke machines competing together, the great competitive potential of the YZR500 was proven once again when Olivier Jacque won the pole position at the German GP on this machine and Abe finished the season ranked sixth.

http://www.mcnews.com.au/features/2003/YZR_History/Yamaha_YZR_History_Page9.htm

F5 Dave

8th February 2014, 18:24

husaberg

12th February 2014, 18:26

Pile of poo maybe, but I can buy one. Better road bike than H*onda ever made. I know about 8 people who have had one. 3 who still do.
Parts available oem and aftermarket. A compromise just as the replica frame is. Just about affordable as well.
Personally I think NS400 was a far better road bike just a little slow.
Seen a disused deteriorating RG500 in the shed the other day, I shed a wee tear.

F5 Dave

13th February 2014, 16:49

Practical Sportsbikes this month just out are doing a 30years of the RZ500 feature. Funny how a chassis thread got munged up with engines again;).

husaberg

2nd March 2014, 10:25

I think i have posted some similar stuff but can't be arsed looking.

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/ImgGalleryTn/63/323463/84944_284433.jpg

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/ImgGalleryTn/63/323463/84943_284432.jpg

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/ImgGalleryTn/63/323463/84942_284431.jpg

http://armstrongfactoryracing.com/images/newenginecarbs.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d58/RD350b/2-Strokes/Copya7l.jpg
http://thecrankcase.com/files/schotten%20oldtimer%20grand%20prix%202012%202/Armstrong_CF250_1983_Rotax_Niall_Mackenzie_carbon_ frame_Schotten_2012_.jpg

http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r529/scotiasam/Willys%20jeep/Armstrong.jpg

Armstrong GP 250/350 tandem Rotax 2-stroke twin from the mid-80's.
Had a carbon twin beam frame and cantilever swing arm.

Scottish Rider Niall McKenzie rode it with some success.

*Interesting side bar found while researching ..

"I was a mechanic on the Silverstone Armstrong 250GP team in the mid eighties. The team used beautiful carbon fiber honeycomb twin spar chassis with a swinging arm of similar construction. Abo****ely a beautiful piece. It was designed by Mike Eatogh who I believe now works for Harley Davidson (consultant at least). It was very light and very rigid in all the right areas. We used Rotax 256 tandem twin engine which was not up to the challenge of the factory Yamaha and Honda engines that had just arrived. The team also had little in the way of a development budget and so were not able to take the concept or the engine powering it to the next level. Donnie MacLeod and Niall McKenzie were the riders and finished first and second IIRC in the British championship but GP results were more difficult to come by. The best result for the team using that chassis was a second place at Spa in 1986 (MacLeod). I was the #2 mechanic on MacLeods bike and my opposite number on the McKenzie bikes was a big Geordie known as Crusty. Geoff Crust went on the become team manager for the Marlboro Yamaha MotoGP team running Biaggi.

One little interesting tidbit is that while the frames were very strong in certain planes they were very weak in others. This was accounted for in design and was not a problem under normal running. However, the side fairing mount was a simple half inch by four inch aluminum tube. Unfortunately, even just the weight of the bike was enough to push this tube through the side of the frame spar and so even a slow speed get off often had the annoying and very time consuming effect of destroying a chassis. We had a lot of late nights... It was fun though."

husaberg

2nd March 2014, 11:04

Bimota DB2 and DB4 offset canterlever.

chrisc

5th June 2014, 13:17

https://www.flickr.com/photos/slrosko/sets/72157622920582570/

cotswold

7th June 2014, 16:04

This is being built as a Replica bultaco, not just the chassis but engine as well

husaberg

30th June 2014, 17:03

Cagiva will add the models (later) harvested from (Here)
posted as file attachments so they don't disappear if they are moved.

husaberg

30th June 2014, 19:39

Some Harris pics, Alf Mosset is an artist
A lot of the pics belong to Colin Todd

husaberg

30th June 2014, 19:41

Some more Harris pics

A lot of the pics belong to Colin Todd

husaberg

30th June 2014, 19:44

Tis more Harris Pics
A lot of the pics belong to Colin Todd

husaberg

13th July 2014, 15:28

Frame on Guy Martins piloted post classic XR69 Replica or what ever it is for the IOM............

husaberg

13th July 2014, 15:32

The frame and bits for Baiagis YZR500 (2000)
When I find it lol
until then undress chch tat

F5 Dave

13th July 2014, 18:23

This XR still looks like a big Norton. They all knew the theory that bent tube keep bending and triangular structure was best but couldn't break away from the folklore of British bikes handling.

husaberg

13th July 2014, 18:33

This XR still looks like a big Norton. They all knew the theory that bent tube keep bending and triangular structure was best but couldn't break away from the folklore of British bikes handling.

Seeley bimota moto martin Egli and a few others had it generally sorted by then, but I guess the Suzuki was a bike lump even the later ones didn't lend themselves to.
ps Mccandless bros who designed the Featherbed were Irish lol.

F5 Dave

13th July 2014, 18:38

All round eyes to the Japanese. It's why the Roberts monocot bikes were such an improvement for that enormous engine

BMWST?

13th July 2014, 20:28

All round eyes to the Japanese. It's why the Roberts monocot bikes were such an improvement for that enormous engine
I tried to buy the aluminium one for a road bike but they said it would be a nightmare for cracking

husaberg

13th July 2014, 20:37

From Greg of slow internet fame..

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbo/Monoshock1l.jpg
http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/list_messages/334887/41/Youngtimer-classic-superbike-topic-deel-II-42.html
https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/monoshock2l.htm
the bend in the frame is to allow the cambox removal.

Grumph

14th July 2014, 07:06

Thanks Husa - look at the date of those, 1978....and i'd bet they'd never heard of Egli in California.

We've got a spare GS1000 motor, I'm tempted.....

F5 Dave

14th July 2014, 22:19

I tried to buy the aluminium one for a road bike but they said it would be a nightmare for cracking

Yeah Skidy spent a while fixing it up a while ago. Steel is a wonder product when it comes to durability youngs modulus of elasticity and all that guff.

Apparently Dave preferred the Ally one.

chrisc

27th August 2014, 21:37

Some bloody good stuff in here including engine manufacture.

http://scootracing89.skyrock.com/

http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/7103/67917103/pics/3162703926_2_2_Ckgnq803.jpg

http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/7103/67917103/pics/3153358734_2_4_w6hQ7j0p.jpg

http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/7103/67917103/pics/3153577506_2_2_O6BYZCkH.jpg

http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/7103/67917103/pics/3153358734_2_2_oEAk0D16.jpg

cotswold

24th September 2014, 04:17

http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/ethonda.html

cotswold

14th October 2014, 17:26

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBjlGsq_sf8

F5 Dave

14th October 2014, 19:35

That was way cool but a bit of push-me-shove-you could kill someone.
How many buckets would have their footpegs fold down over those jumps?

husaberg

14th October 2014, 20:07

From the hard drive in no particular order.

husaberg

14th October 2014, 20:09

From the hard drive in no particular order.............

husaberg

14th October 2014, 20:14

From the hard drive in no particular order........................
Includes the Cagiva 125 GP bike Never seen that before.
Also the very very aero Derbi

husaberg

14th October 2014, 20:16

From the hard drive in no particular order............................................. .
Stove pipe lil one

husaberg

14th October 2014, 20:27

From the hard drive in no particular order...................................

husaberg

14th October 2014, 20:29

From the hard drive in no particular order.............................................

husaberg

14th October 2014, 20:33

From the hard drive in no particular order............................................. ....................
think the blue has been posted by Cotswold before

husaberg

14th October 2014, 20:38

From the hard drive in no particular order............................................. ..............................
Beautiful

husaberg

14th October 2014, 20:48

Off the Hard Drive etc etc

Beautiful

husaberg

14th October 2014, 21:00

[QUOTE=chrisc;1130764752]Some bloody good stuff in here including engine manufacture.

[QUOTE]
Like the rawness of this one myself bread and butter

The others are my CR5

Michael Moore

20th October 2014, 06:39

Here are two I've built for AHRMA vintage racing: A sloper 175 Honda twin for 200/250GP and a F750 Laverda twin.

cheers,
Michael

husaberg

20th October 2014, 07:21

Welcolm to KB Mr Moore I have often looked at your website and your projects.
Raided a few Pictures too:innocent:

Michael Moore

20th October 2014, 10:01

I thought I'd seen a few photos that looked veglia familiar! :)

I found quite a few photos in this thread (I turned up in a web search for photos of the Scitsu plate frame) that I've copied off to my PC for my future reference.

No need for formality, my name is Michael (not Mike though) so feel free to use it. "Mr." makes me feel so old . . .

For those who aren't familiar with my website this page

http://www.eurospares.com/other.htm

will get you to the various project pages and the pages with links to somewhere around 6000 images of bikes and parts I've found interesting. I started the site nearly 20 years ago and I've retained the largely text-based format that was needed in the low bandwidth days so people have to guess from the descriptions which photos they are likely to want to look at. As you can imagine, going back and adding thumbnails to all the existing links is quite a chore. And I've got plenty of other stuff waiting to go up -- someday.

cheers,
Michael

Grumph

20th October 2014, 12:59

Welcome indeed Michael...All we need now is your friend Mr Bradley to show up and this thread would be like the ESE thread on 2 stroke tuning where some of the world's best contribute.
Don't change your website for me, i'm still on slow internet and it's a pleasure to use without having to wait for pics to show up.

Michael Moore

20th October 2014, 14:41

It is good of you to give me an excuse to avoid revising the website. :)

I doubt John spends much time browsing the web. The physical issues he mentions briefly in his books limits the amount of time he can sit at the PC (with lots of recovery time between sessions needed) and he's trying to use that time to work on Volume 3 (chassis setup). If he can finish that and get it ready to print he'll then see about putting the first two books back into print too. I suspect that won't be happening anytime soon as it sounds like Volume 3 may be the size of the earlier books.

cheers,
Michael

chrisc

20th October 2014, 16:05

Grumph

20th October 2014, 16:08

husaberg

20th October 2014, 16:12

I've read the first volume about 10 times already and have been trying to get my hands on volume two for years. If anyone has any leads on where I can get that, I'd very much like to hear them!

Good to have you here Michael

I was following the link to the VRM suite looking for the pic posted of the Roffe Emot engine and I seen Roffe might have some, the freight from Sweden might be a killer though, its my birthday soon and I want one as well.

Michael Moore

20th October 2014, 17:21

John knows that there is demand for V1 and V2. It has been 7 years since I stopped distributing them in North America and I still get emails from people hoping I've got one sitting on the shelf and I keep John informed about that.

You've got to be diligent in your search. Used copies of Volume 1 pop up on eBay every now and then for reasonable prices, but Volume 2 is very scarce, and the prices are much higher than retail was. I wish I'd kept some copies on hand to help out friends but I didn't anticipate they'd be out of print so long.

cheers,
Michael

Bert

20th October 2014, 17:55

Michael Moore

21st October 2014, 03:33

You folks may not know it but you are very lucky to have such a strong "DIY" aspect to your racing. In the US our club racing is very much slanted towards production bikes, and a lot of people who are racing can't see any reason why they'd want to spend the money/go to the effort of sourcing or building a chassis for a GP-style bike. They are in it for inexpensive track time, so a $2K SV650 or older 600 sport bike makes them perfectly happy.

I can understand that since modern bikes are so much improved from the 1970s/80s. But we used to have Bimotas and Spondons and other special-framed bikes, along with hordes of RS/TZ125s and RS/TZ250s filling our club grids.

There's a bit more going on with chassis building in AHRMA vintage, but folks like my friend Jeff who I recently advised on building his first frame for a 175 Kawasaki (200GP class) are still not very common.

For me motorcycle racing has always been as much about the motorcycle as the racing, and while there is no possibility of me coming anywhere close to riding a "modern" (last 30 years) bike to its capacity, I've got zero interest in riding some stockish street bike. I've got a good crowd of gearheads on my mc-chassis-design list (some from Aus/NZ) but it is nice to find a spot like this forum that is filled with builders/modifiers. I wish we had bucket racing here, but it looks like the vast majority of club racers nowadays are limited in their workshop skills to bolting on an exhaust or damper.

cheers,
Michael

Michael Moore

21st October 2014, 03:47

Speaking of Jeff Henise's F37 Kawasaki (F3 cylinder on F7 lower, another dumb requirement by AHRMA instead of letting him run the F7 top end) here are some photos. Jeff also has a Yamaha YCS1 that so far only has a Seeley-style swing arm, but he is keen to build a similar frame to the Kawasaki for it.

Jeff is an ace weldor and a very good machinist, as well as a PhD chemist. He did all the engine and chassis work (except for the tank which was done by another friend of mine) including new porting/sleeves/exhaust etc and designed all of the engine modifications.

Jeff was going to put some CB350 forks on the F37 and while I wasn't able to convince him to build some leading link forks I did get him to convert them to a DMW-style external damper. Pierre at Works Performance was keen on the project and built the damper and Jeff is very happy with how the front end works.

At the recent AHRMA national at Barber Jeff got a 3rd place on the bike in 200GP, with 2nd and 4th being taken by former 200GP class champions.

cheers,
Michael

Michael Moore

21st October 2014, 03:49

Here's Dave Pearce's latest Tigcraft single using a reverse head YZF450. He says that with a stock motor it is several seconds faster than the SV650s it races against.

cheers,
Michael

Manu24

26th October 2014, 21:02

Hello from Spain, I have already published in the presentation part of this post is very interesting, I put pictures of my latest creation

husaberg

26th October 2014, 21:05

Hello from Spain, I have already published in the presentation part of this post is very interesting, I put pictures of my latest creation

Please tell us more..............

Bert

26th October 2014, 21:46

Hello from Spain, I have already published in the presentation part of this post is very interesting, I put pictures of my latest creation
Really interest stuff Manu24
Do tell us more about the project and maybe the motostudent project.

Please tell us more..............

Husa you might have to go to Facebook and have a look see.
https://www.facebook.com/Ktuning.es

husaberg

29th November 2014, 20:03

Chassis RS125 1995 NX4 Vs RS125r NF4 1994

husaberg

14th February 2015, 12:14

I have posted some pics before
But not I think of the bare stainless steel monocoque
Peter Williams a very clever guy and a very underrated rider
http://peterwilliamsmotorcycles.com/innovations/

cotswold

17th February 2015, 11:00

nice british bike

F5 Dave

17th February 2015, 11:13

S'funny I'm just reading a bit about Exactweld rider Gary Noals I think it was. Novel idea.

Piston port TZ,but fitted with 17', later discs Ohlins etc

Grumph

18th February 2015, 06:38

That TZ Exactweld is the one they used in the European Champs. Looks like it's been updated for post classic racing.
I know Husa has the mag with pics of the later inline twin with rotary valves both sides and the motor as part of the chassis...Given the headstock mounted to the heads it must have been a bugger to lift a head to check mixtures.

They did the very similar Cosworth too, swingarm off the motor and a fabricated head stock off the top of the motor.

jasonu

18th February 2015, 07:07

nice british bike

'Nice' is not the word I would use. 'Ugly' is way more appropriate.

Grumph

18th February 2015, 11:07

'Nice' is not the word I would use. 'Ugly' is way more appropriate.

If you think that's ugly - and i don't disagree...Find a pic of Eric Offenstadt's cast alloy version of the same thing. Now that's ugly. And from cast alloy, not decent stuff.

husaberg

18th February 2015, 11:32

If you think that's ugly - and i don't disagree...Find a pic of Eric Offenstadt's cast alloy version of the same thing. Now that's ugly. And from cast alloy, not decent stuff.

Yet imo anyway The Cosworth Norton they did with its fairing and seat off Is rather remarkable and pretty. Then again i guess there was very little other ways to frame the unweirdly lump.

Click on the Arrow after husaberg
I will post a better pic of it tonight

Below the Quantel Norton

I believe it may have won A BOT Daytona event later on or was second.
Norton had a big problem with the engine it turned out as well as costing them huge money it had so little flywheels it would allegedly lock the rear wheel on overrun and had a water pump that was supposed to be impossible to bleed without burning or scolding the mechanic
The engine was descrbed as the first cavity wall insulated engine by Williams Nortons management as well as constantly changing the origional breif to Coworth. One of the things they insisted on was it be symetrical on ether side. So the right side is all a dummy of the left camshaft drive. It actually made over 120 hp with little or no tuning from the Origional Duckworth design (insert duckworth moto here)

husaberg

22nd February 2015, 10:37

..............................

For Paul Morgan who laterwent on to co-found the Ilmor raceing engine concern , it was no reward for all the work put in on test bed running and development.
The raceing engine was finally refined to produce at least 110 bhp at 10.500 rpm .

And so , for several years the Norton / JA engine dissapeared into limbo.
Then in July 1984 , an ex - road racer , and newly appointed Cosworth Director Bob Graves ,
whose Quantel company had joined Cosworths controlling company , UEI , was shown round the Northampton factory by Kieth Duckworth .
Bob spied a few dusty engines on a shelf and asked what they were, and leaned the sorry saga from the Chairman , who ended up by saying
" You're looking at the only engine we have ever built which has never won a race " .

Kieth was happy to get rid of a couple of engines , but wanted no more to do with this failed project. The story is that Graves then spent four years - and 100.000 pounds - to prove him wrong. In 1988 he made his point - not only did Roger Marshall win the Daytona ' Battle of the Twins ' on his Cosworth engined bike , The Cosworth - Norton engined bike , The Cosworth - Quantel , but the machine went on to win major events at Spa ( Belgium ) and Assen ( Holland ) later in the year . Then , as Kieth told me :

' After the Daytona win we had the chance of takeing more orders for this engine , but by that time Cosworth was far to big to be playing around with things like that ' .

Bob Graves, a director of Cosworth, found the engines when searching through a store room. He purchased what was left and sent it to his home in Surrey where he had a private workshop and a considerable collection of automobilia exotica.

Bob Graves engaged three people to work on the project, Guy Pearson, John Baldwin and Gary Flood. The former two were skilled fabricators of stainless sheet alloys and aluminium, while Gary was a would be MX rider cum road racer. Guy and John had at one time worked for Surtees F1, and all three had combined to produce the Exactweld 250 two stroke racer on which Gary Noel would eventually win the European Championship.
The following is what Gary Flood told me regarding the detail that went into making the Quantel Cosworth a top performer.

Guy and John devised a fabricated chassis that attached to the front and top of the engine, with a fabricated swing arm and a mono shock mounted above the engine.
The engine was re worked in considerable detail. Without detailing the work done in any sort of chronological order, the following were things that had to be addressed.

The gear on the end of the crankshaft would slip. Kieth Duckworth suggested chrome plating the inside of the gear to give a certain interference fit, and once this was done no more slipping occurred. There was also a problem with a quill shaft fracturing at certain low engine speeds. Duckworth again came up with a fix which involved a change in both material and shaft diameter. Flood eventually re balanced the engine to a different balance factor.

Initial attempts to run a fuel injection system were disastrous, best described by Gary Flood as impossible to map to be suitable for track use, and likened it to an on/off system - with no in between !
Amal 40mm Concentric Mk 2 carburettors were fitted to get some power output figures, and worked reasonably well, but the original design provided a poor down draft angle for the intake duct owing to the original requirement being that the engine should be also suitable for road useage.
The team modified the intake to create a greatly increased down draft, thus making fuel injection a necessity. Kieth Duckworth had a system built up by Cosworth technicians that proved to be totally satisfactory in terms of power delivery and throttle control.

Cam profiles were originally lifted straight from the Cosworth DVA engine, with valve lifts and durations being equal, exhaust and intake, and set at 102 degrees maximum lift both. Maximum valve lifts were 10.4 mm, and at 1mm lift, durations were 274 degrees. Later Gary Flood changed these settings to give intake full lift at 98 degrees ATDC, but despite this early opening, no problem was ever found with valve to piston clearance. Later the intake cam was changed to one developed by John Judd when working with the Williams F1 team, which gave 1.5mm more peak lift.

Squish was set cold to 0,024 thou. but was found to shrink dynamically to 0.006 thou.

Exhaust header pipes were in 18 swg, of 1 7/8 inch outside diameter running into a collector with a parallel outlet pipe.

Dyno testing was done on a Heenan and Froude water brake, and just over 120 bhp was measured at the gearbox output shaft.

Testing showed the gear spacings to be less than ideal, the original design was for a 20% drop between each gear. It was found that the gap between fourth and top was too great and so the gears were re designed to give a drop of 12% which eventually proved ideal.
The clutch was of the diaphragm spring type which Gary Flood described as 'borderline'.

The Quantel Cosworth was raced very sucessfully by both Roger Marshall and Paul Lewis.
Following a period in retirement it was eventually sold to a German collector.http://www.accessnorton.com/quantal-cosworth-norton-t15308-75.html

husaberg

22nd February 2015, 10:43

Second lot of pics before I get in trouble for huge pics.......

husaberg

22nd February 2015, 10:47

Third lot of pics before I get in trouble for huge pics.......

cotswold

19th March 2015, 20:59

Not sure if this ones been on here or not but a monocoque crm 1972 , one of Jan Theils Jamanthi racers

husaberg

19th March 2015, 21:01

Not sure if this ones been on here or not but a monocoque crm 1972 , one of Jan Theils Jamanthi racers

I think I posted the colour ones on ESE or here..........
https://www.facebook.com/Jamathi

QUOTE=husaberg;1130458874]No worries the fact that so many Europeans can so readily swap between so many languages never fails to amaze m e while we kiwis struggle at time with one,
<img src="http://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?PHPSESSID=bbobq0gv5ajsklgubq0c2ehnu0&action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=16539;image" width="510px"/><img src="http://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?PHPSESSID=bbobq0gv5ajsklgubq0c2ehnu0&action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=16607;image" width="510px"/>
<img src="http://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?PHPSESSID=bbobq0gv5ajsklgubq0c2ehnu0&action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=16612;image" width="510px"/><img src="http://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?PHPSESSID=bbobq0gv5ajsklgubq0c2ehnu0&action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=16608;image" width="510px"/>
<img src="http://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?PHPSESSID=bbobq0gv5ajsklgubq0c2ehnu0&action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=16613;image" width="510px"/><img src="http://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?PHPSESSID=bbobq0gv5ajsklgubq0c2ehnu0&action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=16788;image" width="510px"/>
<img src="http://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?PHPSESSID=bbobq0gv5ajsklgubq0c2ehnu0&action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=16789;image" width="490px"/><img src="http://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?PHPSESSID=bbobq0gv5ajsklgubq0c2ehnu0&action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=16790;image" width="640px"/>

http://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?PHPSESSID=bbobq0gv5ajsklgubq0c2ehnu0&action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=16611;image[/QUOTE]

husaberg

6th May 2015, 17:51

Anyone got any pics of the Macintosh Rotax.
Or know where it went.

Apologies about the delay! Dave O mentioned a few weeks back that there was a note I should add my 2c to, but been busy and forgot about it. Dave prodded me again when we caught up over the weekend. I can give you a bit of early history, but unfortunately nothing recent.

The bike was built in 81 by Ken McIntosh. The engine was supplied by the local Rotax importer Dennis Marwood, I believe via his motorsport company, Performance Developments. There was originally a hope they might build and market a run of these, as with the McIntosh TZ frames, but this never eventuated.

Ken's frame was very distinctive, and quite different from anything else he had built at the time. It had a single large backbone tube fashioned after the Egli Vincents, with droppers to pick up the front and rear engine mounts. There was no frame under the engine mounts, so the engine was effectively a stressed member. Rear suspension was a simple rectangular section steel swingarm riding on twin Fox shocks. The tank was custom, the seat was a sectioned seat from the larger McIntosh big bore Suzuki frames. I'm not sure what the fairing was from. The front end and wheels were stolen from the TZ250H I had just bought for the coming season.

As the original note said, I managed to highside a Katana in a 3 hour production race at the old Baypark in Tauranga, and broke a wrist. This was three weeks before the start of the NZ championship rounds. Ken wanted the bike out prior to this, so it was first run at a club meeting on the old short circuit at Pukekohe, ridden by Stewie Burdett, then at the non-championship meeting at the Wanganui Cemetery circuit on 26th Dec 1981, ridden by Mike Pero. The bike performed well at both of these.

My first ride was at Teretonga, a week after Wanganui, with a win in the 250 prelim, and a second in the championship points race. My recollections of this first ride was the phenomenal punch out of corners. The bike then blew a crank in a 350 race, which unfortunately set the flavour for the rest of the season. as we struggled with reliability and performance. I think now this was purely lack of knowledge. Any number of people could advise on making a TZ fast and reliable, but no-one in NZ at the time had any experience with the Rotax motors.

After running 2nd in the championships, I moved to Australia at the end of the season, and the bike went back to Ken McIntosh. While I had originally planned to take the Rotax, I still had the H, and couldn't afford to buy the Rotax as well. The following season, Ken had Robert Holden on the bike, and I believe it finished second again in the NZ champs in the 82/83 season. Sadly, Robert died in a racing accident some years back.

I don't know the exact chronology at this point, but I understand Tony Maxwell had it at some time (maybe immediately after Holden?). Following this, it disappeared.

Friend, racer, and part time journalist, Terry Stevenson, did a magazine article on the McIntosh bikes a few years back. This was primarily around the big bore Freeth era racers, but he also attempted to trace the whereabouts of the Rotax, but with little success. He believes the bike was broken up, the engine ended up with the go-karting fraternity, and the frame was turned into a shop hack, and is now probably consigned to a dump somewhere, unrecognised for what it was. A sad end to a great little bike.

I've just come back from the Sheene memorial classic meeting at Hampton Downs, and for a brief moment I thought the McIntosh Rotax may have resurfaced. I was dragged over to meet an Australian guy (Lech?) who had purchased a Rotax powered bike a couple of years previously from someone in Christchurch. It had a custom frame, and he was struggling to find its origins. Unfortunately once I started describing the McIntosh frame it was immediately obvious this was not it. (But at the meeting was Ken McIntosh, Mike Pero - having his first race on a TZ for many years, and myself, so we had a fair whack of the early Rotax history there!)

So that's about where my knowledge ends. If anyone else has any inkling of where this has ended up, I'd love to know. Or, if you are sitting on an unknown frame, I could pretty quickly identify if it was the McIntosh. I will have some photos around, which I will scan and load, but I don't think I have anything of the bike undressed.

Andrew (Mclaren)
http://2stroker.createforumhosting.com/whatever-happened-to-mcintosh-rotax-t6256.htm

husaberg

6th May 2015, 18:05

Supposedly this one was from NZ as well any ideas?
311503

Where is Dave, his mate had a Rotax powered tandem as well.

Grumph

6th May 2015, 19:39

Supposedly this one was from NZ as well any ideas?
311503

Where is Dave, his mate had a Rotax powered tandem as well.

I think that's the bike ex christchurch the guy refers to in the letter husa. I've certainly seen it many times over the years at BEARS meetings etc.
I think Graham Harris may have owned it at one point - He may have been the last ChCh owner.
Don't know who built it, may have been the ex Tony Maxwell one which i always thought was framed by someone in Wgtn.

Kickaha

6th May 2015, 19:46

I think Graham Harris may have owned it at one point - He may have been the last ChCh owner
Graeme owned it around the early to mid nineties because someone I knew was looking at buying it off him then, pretty sure Hugh Reynolds raced it at SOT around the same time but not sure who owned it at the time

husaberg

6th May 2015, 20:04

I think that's the bike ex christchurch the guy refers to in the letter husa. I've certainly seen it many times over the years at BEARS meetings etc.
I think Graham Harris may have owned it at one point - He may have been the last ChCh owner.
Don't know who built it, may have been the ex Tony Maxwell one which i always thought was framed by someone in Wgtn.

I should have been a little clearer it was the other bike mentioned in the other thread it takes ages to open so don't Greg.

husaberg

6th May 2015, 20:30

Bump
Where is Dave, his mate had a Rotax powered tandem as well.

So I think Aussies run pre 80 rather than pre 82 like we do. I was investigating a mates bike & I think is was an Aussie P&R in square section ally, but I rang them & sadly it was 83. Originally designed for a TZ250/350 it was fitted with a 256 Rotax, pity, one year crosses the line from competitive in 82 to nowhere in 89 a less covered class.

F5 Dave

6th May 2015, 21:27

Yeah yea I was going to visit him tonight to get out of the house, ended up at Katie's checking out the RS-GP125 build which is looking and sounding good.

Ex Maxwell I think and Dave Hicks perhaps. It was also ex Holden but reframed with an Aussie crowd called two letters like H&E or something like. They largely did TZ frames but I rang them and they remembered this one. Sadly it was made at best 83, maybe 84 so not pre82 eligible. I lost interest as we don't have a real bears club in the norf.
Edit oh yeah just read the quote above, maybe P&R.

2T Institute

10th May 2015, 02:18

Grumph

10th May 2015, 05:51

Lech Budniak owns this bike here in Australia now. Don't think he's raced it (too afraid it will go much faster than a Yamaha). With slicks,brakes and suspension the same as P6 bikes the Rotax will be faster. Back in the day 250 Armstrongs beat TZ350's at Bathurst many times

Tell him not to worry about beating Yamahas - unless someone who knows what they're doing has been into the motor, that one won't beat yams...
It never managed it here in NZ despite having some very good riders. At least one owner here tuned it to a standstill so he may have decided to park it and look for standard barrels...

husaberg

10th May 2015, 10:54

Tell him not to worry about beating Yamahas - unless someone who knows what they're doing has been into the motor, that one won't beat yams...
It never managed it here in NZ despite having some very good riders. At least one owner here tuned it to a standstill so he may have decided to park it and look for standard barrels...

He can have Aprilia RSW cylinders that look like STD RSW Cylinders there is a guy that said he could make them on the pitlane thread in a question that Lozza asked.
He had outer cores for rotax cylinders
I think I know why now.

chrisc

18th June 2015, 20:56

Every so often my mind returns to the thought of building a motorcycle from scratch. Whilst this thread provides some good examples of frame design, there's generally not much talk about frame building technique and strategy.

Speaking particularly about building tube frames rather than monos or modern ali frames, does anyone have some good examples of jigs, stands, mock ups etc? I'm hoping you will pipe in with some gold from the archives Husa.

When my mind gets on the wondering path I can't help but think about an ideal bucket geometry. A RS125 is built to do 200km/hr+, hold shit loads of corner speed and really not function below 85km/hr. The ideal bucket would haul out of slow corners, be light, nimble and transition from slow corner to slow corner as fast as possible. On most kart tracks we don't even get over 100km/hr. What does this do to the so called ideal geometry of a bucket? Shorter trail for quicker turn in? Lower center of gravity for quicker weight change? More weight on the front wheel for grip in slow corners? What about swing arm squat characteristics with low powered bikes and lots of hard acceleration?

I have zero practical experience in building bikes or tuning handling, only reading and pondering time. If anyone has some worthwhile resources on this, I'm all ears! I spend most of my week dreaming of racing, I may as well cram as much learning in as I can.

mr bucketracer

18th June 2015, 21:30

husaberg

18th June 2015, 21:32

When my mind gets on the wondering path I can't help but think about an ideal bucket geometry. A RS125 is built to do 200km/hr+, hold shit loads of corner speed and really not function below 85km/hr. The ideal bucket would haul out of slow corners, be light, nimble and transition from slow corner to slow corner as fast as possible. On most kart tracks we don't even get over 100km/hr. What does this do to the so called ideal geometry of a bucket? Shorter trail for quicker turn in? Lower center of gravity for quicker weight change? More weight on the front wheel for grip in slow corners? What about swing arm squat characteristics with low powered bikes and lots of hard acceleration?

I have zero practical experience in building bikes or tuning handling, only reading and pondering time. If anyone has some worthwhile resources on this, I'm all ears! I spend most of my week dreaming of racing, I may as well cram as much learning in as I can.

your light so part way there

Pretty sure the GPR's might have more racy geometry than a NX4........

mr bucketracer

18th June 2015, 21:40

Pretty sure the GPR's might have more racy geometry than a NX4........i should change the spring for my fat ass one day and it may work lol

husaberg

18th June 2015, 21:43

i should change the spring for my fat ass one day and it may work lol

That isn't what I asked Scott........

mr bucketracer

18th June 2015, 21:47

That isn't what I asked Scott........you would have to send me some hot drink to get that out of me lol , anyway have you got your engine in your frame or do i have to bring my welder back for a second go lol

chrisc

18th June 2015, 21:47

your light so part way there

Clearly a man of many words hahaha.
Have you trialed some of the noted differences? Any comment on what worked better or worse for a bucket and your preference of riding?
I'll hazard a guess that you'll say "just bloody build the thing and ride the pants off it". That works too but we don't particularly learn much that way do we? :Pokey:

husaberg

18th June 2015, 21:48

you would have to send me some hot drink to get that out of me lol , anyway have you got your engine in your frame or do i have to bring my welder back for a second go lol

Have I? that would be telling Are you coming back Easter?

mr bucketracer

18th June 2015, 21:55

Clearly a man of many words hahaha.
Have you trialed some of the noted differences? Any comment on what worked better or worse for a bucket and your preference of riding?
I'll hazard a guess that you'll say "just bloody build the thing and ride the pants off it". That works too but we don't particularly learn much that way do we? :Pokey:i recond 29degree set up with right rear spring , just what i think as every track is diffent so dont take any notice of anything l say because im drunk :crazy: changed it lol sucker

mr bucketracer

18th June 2015, 21:57

Have I? that would be telling Are you coming back Easter?was it easter i was there ? love to but money is breaking me and heath:facepalm:

husaberg

18th June 2015, 22:07

was it easter i was there ? love to but money is breaking me and heath:facepalm:

Shit no October............whoops
29 degrees looks a lot like 22 degrees?

Pumba

19th June 2015, 11:20

I have read through Tony Foles books a couple of times. Some good stuff in there but well over my head (probably not but I struggle with grasping technical shit outside of my day job, feels far to work like).

Have come to the conclusion of I was to do the first one would be a suck it and see experiment. Take the learnings from that for the second one. And by the third frame I might know what I am doing

F5 Dave

19th June 2015, 14:01

i recond 29degree set up with right rear spring , just what i think as every track is diffent so dont take any notice of anything l say because im drunk :crazy: changed it lol sucker
I think its generally recognised that 27 degrees will be stable enough in most conditions for desert racing, you might go a bit steeper for mx.

Grumph

19th June 2015, 22:21

I think its generally recognised that 27 degrees will be stable enough in most conditions for desert racing, you might go a bit steeper for mx.

From what i hear of Minefield's current condition 27 degrees would work well...

Anyone who is serious about frame building should beg borrow or steal Vol 1 & 2 of The Racing Motorcycle by Bradley. Everything you need to know is there.

Some observations though...If it's a light bike and not on the very latest rubber - skinny 18's for example - radical geometry isn't needed as steering may well get too light if it's got a steeper rake than say 26 degrees. But you guys are always going to go to the maximum tyre width anyway - which again, may not be optimal. Do you for instance really need the widest tyres on a bucket on a big track where rolling resistance becomes a factor....

F5 Dave

20th June 2015, 08:54

For years I ran a front tyre on the rear of my 50 but in reality the 115 was better on bigger rim for traction especially over bumpy seal and I went faster a a result.

My RSs run 23* but I've never got around to measuring trail as its hard to change beyond ride height/fork position indirect affect. On my NF4 some more offset might be nice to try as it turns on a dime (ie. has to go to America before it changes direction). Ride height is made but have found out DDs bikes have extenders which I was to try next which would put steering steeper still.

Grumph

20th June 2015, 13:09

richban

20th June 2015, 13:55

I can give you a compassion on my NSR. I run from 21.5 to 22.5 deg on both the 300 and the bucket trail numbers around 86 to 90 depending. Its also the shortest of the 250's at 1340mm

They both handle great. But for a kart track I would think a shorter version would be a bit better. The 300 is super stable at just over 2 hundie. Untill I ride something better I will say they are the best handling bikes in the world. :rolleyes:

F5 Dave

21st June 2015, 17:36

Could you give us a comparison of the NF4 on kart vs big tracks please dave.
NF4 is fine at Ruapuna, except for the primitive suspension.

Actually it is a little lazy in . . erm is it the dipper? Fast left back straight. Understeers there and needed lots of lean angle where others don't seem to.

Funny, people get all uppity about `gp chassis` and how its unfair blah blah, but to be honest they are great as a starting point but they are far from ideal. Now I'm not currently racing I'll admit to holding back on that a bit so people thought it was an advantage.

Grumph

21st June 2015, 18:53

NF4 is fine at Ruapuna, except for the primitive suspension.

Actually it is a little lazy in . . erm is it the dipper? Fast left back straight. Understeers there and needed lots of lean angle where others don't seem to.

Funny, people get all uppity about `gp chassis` and how its unfair blah blah, but to be honest they are great as a starting point but they are far from ideal. Now I'm not currently racing I'll admit to holding back on that a bit so people thought it was an advantage.

Much as i expected, bigger radius turns are what it's made for. I have seen you talking about it's understeering on the kart tracks and wondered. i've also seen R taylor talking about how it's more important on the 125's to keep the plot level so as not to upset the aerodynamics on the big tracks. Which implies suspension travel limitations.
In an ideal world, you'd simply fit a soft front to fix it.
Those NF4's were not bad in their day. The factory only made small changes to the geometry year to year. The change to 17's made a huge difference.

F5 Dave

21st June 2015, 21:04

I've had a couple of peeps out on the 100 in the last few weeks,mand they've echoed my thoughts. A ride a couple of years back on a gpr made me accustom to what was good.

Even Yowls rg250/tf100 was a blast, if real real slow, I could ride around fxrs with ease while the blasted me down the straights and out accelerated me.

husaberg

21st June 2015, 21:14

cotswold

5th September 2015, 15:29

Awesome free tech 50 out of europe

husaberg

5th September 2015, 15:59

Awesome free tech 50 out of europe

That front end is incredibly butch.

TZ350

5th September 2015, 18:16

Awesome free tech 50 out of europe

That is beautiful ....... very impressed, love it.

Frits Overmars

6th September 2015, 00:51

That is beautiful ....... very impressed, love it.Weren't you thinking along the same lines, TeeZee? Here are some more pictures of the bike; I'm anxious to see it find its way between the six-speed Freetech bikes.

315529315530315531315532315533315534

TZ350

6th September 2015, 07:54

Weren't you thinking along the same lines, TeeZee? 315533

Yes and still want to build a CVT racer but I am running two or three projects behind schedule.

husaberg

23rd September 2015, 20:19

This is the very rare Austrian made GP motorcycles.
This motorcycle come to an agreement the in one shown in the photo. The cycles engine is new . 125 ccm six speed, dry clutch (the gearbox and clutch is Morbidelli), water cooled (electric pump), seven transfer cylinder engine (the cranksahft and the piston is Yamaha TZ H, J etc, bore is 56 mm). The igniton is Kröber battery ignition. Just a littel rotor on the crankshaft end, one inductiv (magnetic) transmitter. The aluminium Kröber \\\"black box\\\" is front of the fairing bottom the Scitsu (16.000) rev counter. And one Bosch (red) coil. The power is 40-42 bhp. The wheeles is Marvic 18\\\" magnesium. The front fork is Forcelle Italia full adjustable magnesium slider forks, but not upside down. The frame is trellis chrome moly tubing with bronz welding.
I give the complete motorcycles and all spare parts (crankcase, cylinders, cylinder heads, con rod, pistons, clutch parts etc..)

I know this is not another bike. I inquired forums no one can complete motorcycles just a few engines.This is a rare GP motorcycles.

The attached book page included for information tha factory\\\'s.(This photo appeared in the 101 Jahre österreichische Motorrad-Hersteller 1899-2000 / Gabriela Klinger, Andreas Winter ISBN:3705900935). The swedish grand prix Anderstrop in 1988 Flemming Kistrup in ninth place on the Hummel motorcycle.
This is the first engine start:
http://racebikemart.com/adverts/Very_rare_Hummel_GP_125__1414668440.php
http://youtu.be/pye9GHE0kpE
http://youtu.be/431OAF3o6IU

husaberg

9th October 2015, 20:25

I seen this site the other day some useful stuff here
Rod ends etc
http://www.partzonline.co.nz/rod-end-female-c-100_89_307_894.html
http://www.partzonline.co.nz/rod-end-male-c-100_89_307_895.html
http://www.partzonline.co.nz/tee-nuts-c-100_487_489_648.html

Frits Overmars

17th October 2015, 02:15

Ducati have been experimenting with spoilers on their MotoGP bikes. The results must have been promising, judging by this spy picture of their 2016 prototype.
316613

Grumph

17th October 2015, 05:27

Roger Freeth will be rolling in his grave....laughing.

TZ350

17th October 2015, 06:42

Roger Freeth will be rolling in his grave....laughing.

316618316617

Roger and the winged Vikon TZ750

316616

Roger Freeths old Vikon TZ750, now owned, I think by Trevor Taylor.

husaberg

17th October 2015, 07:19

Roger and the winged Vikon TZ750
Roger Freeths old Vikon TZ750, now owned, I think by Trevor Taylor.

I recall the winged Britten as well.
316619316620
I forgot about the Ducati powered one I must be getting old.
316628
http://www.britten.co.nz/history/aerobike.html
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6tWYisJR4i0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Is it just me or the editing or is he doing the track in the wrong direction? I remember the change from the short to the long track with the original hairpin but it still looks backwards?

Michael Moore

1st December 2015, 13:23

A couple of years ago I copied down a long and very interesting thread on the restoration of a Saxon-chassis TZ from the NATS forum. I was given permission to put a copy of that PDF file on my website so that everyone can download it. Losing the contents of the forum when the host pulled the plug on it and all the other hosted boards was quite a catastrophe.

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/chassis/SaxonYamaha.pdf

It is about 22MB in size.

cheers,
Michael

Michael Moore

3rd December 2015, 17:39

Photos of the Saxon Rotax twin owned by the person who also has the Saxon TZ

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/chassis/SaxonRotax/

Here's a teaser:

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/chassis/SaxonRotax/IMG_7657.jpg

cheers,
Michael

chrisc

12th February 2016, 22:08

319498319499319500

https://www.facebook.com/alexandros.maidis

I'm astounded the engine casings are strong enough to take that mount of loading. Beautiful design though

Frits Overmars

12th February 2016, 23:47

It's a real looker but I would not want to race it in the Isle of Man. I'm afraid the ears will break off the cylinders the first time you ride it over anything thicker than a filter cigarette.

Grumph

13th February 2016, 06:23

husaberg

13th February 2016, 11:38

I agree, the first time it's cranked over and hits a bump will be interesting to say the least...

I reckon he's seen a Britten or read a lot of articles on them at an impressionable age. He's even copied the features which gave problems...

I seen the other day how they Fixed the chatter in one test of the Britten at either Mike Webs or Mike Sinclairs suggestion (I can't remember which), they bolted on a few KGs of lead as extra unsprung weight :)

Grumph

13th February 2016, 12:44

I seen the other day how they Fixed the chatter in one test of the Britten at either Mike Webs or Mike Sinclairs suggestion (I can't remember which), they bolted on a few KGs of lead as extra unsprung weight :)

Probably Mike S. I'll ask him IF I remember, IF he ever rings me again..

Remember, I'm the nasty scrutineer who made them put steering stops on it instead of using the damper as the stops...

husaberg

13th February 2016, 12:54

Probably Mike S. I'll ask him IF I remember, IF he ever rings me again..

Remember, I'm the nasty scrutineer who made them put steering stops on it instead of using the damper as the stops...

Pretty sure that one was actually clearly written in the actual rules.:killingme
It used to read something like not relying on the circlip from memory. right back to the small ACU rule book days

Grumph

3rd April 2016, 10:37

husaberg

3rd April 2016, 12:11

If you go back to the early parts of this thread, there was mention of the Westoby's Rotax powered 125's and the frames they built.

I happened to turn the TV on yesterday to a programme where the narrator was visiting Temuka and looking at the Richard Pearse flying history...They fired up the replica Pearse plane - and there was Lex Westoby. Fair enough, he built the replica motor.
Fame at last...
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/145224-Race-chassis?p=1130221509#post1130221509
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/145224-Race-chassis?p=1130224186#post1130224186

Well over 200 people viewed the pics which by KB standards is a lot, as they had no cleavage.
(I am not sure if this will work) but I have posted over 10,167 pics in KB

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/imgbrowser.php?
Sorry the link didn't work.
you need to click on husaberg above this post then view attachments by user, then set to, from the beginning, set the image finder to 70 per page, and by number of views.
These Westoby pics I posted for you are ranked in the top 70 out of all the 10,167 pics I have ever posted.
That's a lot of pics (thanks KB:innocent:)

Michael Moore

18th May 2016, 14:29

Dave Pearce @ Tigcraft sent me some photos of his latest project, a Moto3 bike powered by a Mahindra engine. He says it does 50bhp on the same dyno that shows a standard customer NSF250 Honda at 43. Weight is 82kg.

cheers,
Michael

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/specials/TigcraftMoto3/The%20Birth%20001.jpg

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/specials/TigcraftMoto3/Nursery%20002.jpg

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/specials/TigcraftMoto3/Tigcraft%20Moto3%20before%20Brands%20004.jpg

mr bucketracer

18th May 2016, 15:15

wonder where you buy one of them engines

Michael Moore

18th May 2016, 15:46

I think Dave said it was factory/factory-supported team engine from a season or two ago.

cheers,
Michael

chrisc

18th May 2016, 16:34

Bert

18th May 2016, 18:51

Grumph

18th May 2016, 20:09

Nice!
Always wondered two things:
1) how people can build such beautiful projects with such hideously dirty and messy workshops. Probably because they're the type of people to just get on with it and make something rather than fuss about stuff like tidiness.
2) if I (a total amateur racer) would be able to feel the handling differences from the short stumpy fuel tanks Moto3 bikes run now, vs. the older conventional style tanks of the Honda RS125 etc.

Something to ponder at least.

Well, that's your invite to my workshop rescinded...unless you bring a brush and shovel.

Any of the GPR frames ever used a tank dropped down in the frame ? Like a few guys used on ZXR400's and FZR 400's.
I'm also contemplating a box structure steering head for direct input to the airbox. That tigcraft has given me ideas how to do it.

I also note that Dave's seat subframes are getting stiffer. The sheet structure must be much stiffer than his earlier tubular versions.
Can we assume that the rider's physical input was causing flex ? Shades of the bolted up vs welded up featherbed...

Michael Moore

19th May 2016, 02:47

Dave told me several years ago that he hadn't made a tubular seat subframe (steel or aluminum) for quite a while. Instead he bends it up from 2mm 5083 sheet, welds where he needs welding, and that part of the bike is done.

The folded aluminum sheet subframes are light, stiff, reliable and easy to make.

That sounds like a good combination to me.

cheers,
Michael

chrisc

19th May 2016, 08:35

Well, that's your invite to my workshop rescinded...unless you bring a brush and shovel.

It hardly bothers me that much, it's not me who has to make things in it! I'd happily come check out your <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">dumping yard</span> workshop.

Tank
I think you will fine it's a perceptive issue.
Given the tank endpoint is behind the swingarm pivot; I think ouy will find they are about the same length.

Clean workshop = - simple mind, anal retentiviness or lots of free time... You choose. ;)

Just to be clear: It's not the length I'm talking, it's the weight distribution. See the Moto3 'tanks' are actually 2 parts. Only the rear half is the fuel tank which is more vertically designed rather than horizontal. I'm sure the overall dimensions of the fuel tank, cover and air box would feel much the same as a conventional tank between the legs but the weight of the fuel being more rearward in the bike would have a handling effect. I'm wondering if even an amateur like myself would be able to notice it, or if it was one of those slight differences that only world championship level riders can pick up.

In saying that, the Tigcraft tank looks two parts like a normal Moto3 but I can't see a filler so maybe the front half is the fuel tank?

See moto3 tank here:
https://blog.ktm.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Kalex-moto3_stripped-2snap_lowres.jpg

Michael Moore

19th May 2016, 10:27

Dave sez:

the chassis weighs 6kg bare which is about par for the class. I use one inch T45 17SWG tube Tig welded. The geometry is based on modern practice which means a higher swingarm pivot. The FG385 Moto3 Ohlins are about 40mm longer than the previous 125 GP Ohlins. The front part of the"Tank" is all airbox with a duct through the waisted headstock which doubles as the front fairing bracket. The tank is in the subframe.
Another aspect I take a particular delight in is all this is done these days in my little shed with just a tube bender a small lathe and an inverter Tig plant. Not an android app in site.
I respect the modern methods but I like being part of a vanishing breed.
\

The location of the tank has to do with mass centralization, as well as the steep downdraft angle on the intake making the front part of the "tank" a good spot for the airbox.

chrisc

19th May 2016, 10:48

Thanks for that Dave and Michael. From someone who aspires to build their own bikes in the future using much the same techniques, I appreciate all the commentary available!

I know very little about metal properties and what is most appropriate for use in bikes. I did an internet search for T45 to try educate myself and found this:

BS T45 is a carbon-manganese steel tube supplied in the hardened and tempered condition. It finds many different applications in both the motorsport and aerospace industries due to its high strength to weight ration. T45 is also weldable, but unlike other chome-moly tube grades does not require heat treating after welding.
http://www.aircraftmaterials.com/data/alstst/T45.html

Being a british standard steel, is there an equivalent that manufacturers use in NZ?

Grumph

19th May 2016, 13:55

Thanks for that Dave and Michael. From someone who aspires to build their own bikes in the future using much the same techniques, I appreciate all the commentary available!

I know very little about metal properties and what is most appropriate for use in bikes. I did an internet search for T45 to try educate myself and found this:

http://www.aircraftmaterials.com/data/alstst/T45.html

Being a british standard steel, is there an equivalent that manufacturers use in NZ?

No, bluntly. There is some usable CrMoly brought in from the states for speedway chassis but not a lot in the sizes we need. Unless someone in Auckland knows better ?
In those sizes and for our uses, given this style of frame is 90% straight pieces, you won't lose much if anything using ERW mild steel.
If Dave is using 17G T45, I'd use 16G - or as it's sold here, 1.6mm - ERW mild steel.
I know Dave has used ERW for frames as well - see Vol 2 of The Racing Motorcycle....

Michael Moore

19th May 2016, 15:47

Chris, I've used CREW (cold rolled electric welded) mild steel tube on all the frames I've built. Remember that all the steels have basically the same stiffness. Stronger tubing makes it more crashworthy and might let you go up on size/down on wall thickness without worrying about denting. 4130 might be a bit better on vibration resistance.

Kevin Cameron once remarked in reference to having his Kawasaki Bighorn frame built from 1018 instead of 4130 "only if you pick your crashes carefully will you fully benefit from a 4130 frame; you have to be sure to crash hard enough to bend 1018, but not hard enough to deform 4130."

I think a dirt bike using thinner-wall tube would be an excellent place to use a stronger steel alloy, so it doesn't pick up dents when you drop it.

I think Dave is in a different situation than me (and possibly you) as he's building a premium product for real money, so the high-spec tube is another positive feature for the customer. If you are building your own frame for your own use you can probably deal better with scrapping/repairing it after a crash than if you've got an expensive commercial frame. Dave's customers might also be crashing at much higher speeds than we do, and need the extra strength to survive the bigger forces.

If I could get T51 or Reynolds 531 I might well use them. But my choice here in the USA is pretty much mild steel or 4130, and I'm a bit leery of 4130 because of it being touchier to braze without suffering intergranular penetration (that's the steel that suffers it, not me :) ).

So if you are just starting, buy the easy to get and affordable tube as it will probably be plenty good enough if you do a good design, and it doesn't hurt so much when you see how heavy your scrap bucket has gotten while you are learning to get good fits on your tube ends.

cheers,
Michael

Grumph

19th May 2016, 16:57

It hardly bothers me that much, it's not me who has to make things in it! I'd happily come check out your <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">dumping yard</span> workshop.

Just to be clear: It's not the length I'm talking, it's the weight distribution. See the Moto3 'tanks' are actually 2 parts. Only the rear half is the fuel tank which is more vertically designed rather than horizontal. I'm sure the overall dimensions of the fuel tank, cover and air box would feel much the same as a conventional tank between the legs but the weight of the fuel being more rearward in the bike would have a handling effect. I'm wondering if even an amateur like myself would be able to notice it, or if it was one of those slight differences that only world championship level riders can pick up.

swarf collection area would describe it best...

I asked about the dropped tanks before i realised the Tigcraft has one. They were standard in FZR400's and Andy Bolwell used a fabricated one on his multi F3 championship winning ZX400. Andy is our equivalent of Pedrosa of course so mass centralisation - and lowering - probably had a noticeable effect.
The engine i'm building atm has steep downdraft and room for that sort of thing so this is useful for when i think about a frame....

Moooools

20th May 2016, 19:00

No, bluntly. There is some usable CrMoly brought in from the states for speedway chassis but not a lot in the sizes we need. Unless someone in Auckland knows better ?

I have bought gone down to 1/2" x 0.035 from AFWE for some wishbones. (http://www.afwe.co.nz/index.html)
They don't list their sizes online but from memory they had a fairly complete range. Might be worth a ring if you haven't tried already.

But like Michael says, chromo won't make anything stiffer, it will just bend/deflect further before it stays bent. Good for crashes and vibration though.

Michael Moore

22nd May 2016, 10:34

http://www.tsl-timing.com/event/162004/session/rc1mot

Tigcraft Moto3 for the win and fast lap at Brands Hatch.

Not too shabby for the product of a small shed. :)

cheers,
Michael

Bert

23rd May 2016, 18:56

http://www.tsl-timing.com/event/162004/session/rc1mot

Tigcraft Moto3 for the win and fast lap at Brands Hatch.

Not too shabby for the product of a small shed. :)

cheers,
Michael

Gear result.

Scott, I'm guessing GPR needs to find a Moto3 engine and full the gap between buckets and F3 bikes in the GPR range.

I wander how many Tigcrafts (monos) have been built?

Grumph

23rd May 2016, 19:00

Gear result.

Scott, I'm guessing GPR needs to find a Moto3 engine and full the gap between buckets and F3 bikes in the GPR range.

I wander how many Tigcrafts (monos) have been built?

I'm assuming Scott won't want to try another KTM ?

Wonder if the local Mahindra importers would come to the party...

ac3_snow

23rd May 2016, 21:14

husaberg

23rd May 2016, 21:25

So i think its fairly obvious what Dave is using to make the TIGcraft frames. And this will likely be an obvious question for most reading this thread but I have no clue so going to ask anyway.
Is there any tangible benefit building something like this with a tig as opposed to a mig?
Or
Is it simply that the outcome is the same but the build process is easier on the builder if they used a tig?

Van Diemen race cars are still Bronze welded. (note, this is different to Brazing)
So are a heck of a lot of Race bike tubular frames
The answer above question though, is the heat concentration.

mr bucketracer

23rd May 2016, 21:49

tig is slow ,mig is fast , tig has more control , weld thinner , bit thicker tube mig is ok . kind of in a nut shell ..

Michael Moore

24th May 2016, 03:08

MIG often seems to leave a convex bead where with TIG (like bronze) you can get a concave bead for smoother stress transition across the joint. TIG may offer more precision/control than MIG.

Tony Foale MIG'd his production streetbike frames and bronze welded the race frames.

Some of it comes down to "which one can you get the best results from?"

Price also can come into it. A TIG welder is much more affordable now than it was in the 1960s/70s. Bronze welding didn't require you to have any power in the shop. :)

No flux to clean off with TIG!

I suspect there may also be a certain element of marketing in how you decide to stick things together. Some customers may be keen on TIG but not bronze, or vice versa, kind of like with the "aircraft billet aluminum" stuff. Personally, I'd be fine with either as long as they were both done to an equally acceptable standard of quality.

cheers,
Michael

Grumph

24th May 2016, 06:39

tig is slow ,mig is fast , tig has more control , weld thinner , bit thicker tube mig is ok . kind of in a nut shell ..

And correct. You use both don't you Scott ? If you're being paid for a frame - and the price is sufficient - then TIG all the way as the customer wants to see value for money. Production run is probably more economic with MIG.
I'm stuck with bronze welding myself due to eyesight problems so have become a reasonably good bronze welder from necessity. But luckily I have a good mate who is probably the best TIG welder in ChCh.
One offs you lose nothing by using bronze.

mr bucketracer

24th May 2016, 07:39

And correct. You use both don't you Scott ? If you're being paid for a frame - and the price is sufficient - then TIG all the way as the customer wants to see value for money. Production run is probably more economic with MIG.
I'm stuck with bronze welding myself due to eyesight problems so have become a reasonably good bronze welder from necessity. But luckily I have a good mate who is probably the best TIG welder in ChCh.
One offs you lose nothing by using bronze.i just TIG them, all my frames are 1.2mm to hard to mig , even i stuggle now days to tig nice unless its 1.5mm )-:

Grumph

24th May 2016, 08:48

i just TIG them, all my frames are 1.2mm to hard to mig , even i stuggle now days to tig nice unless its 1.5mm )-:

No hope for me then, lol. My welder mate uses 20G stainless wire as the rod for anything under about 1.2mm.
Not ideal as a match for mild steel but it's a low quality stainless so it's reasonably ductile. Welds well too.

edit - For Michael's edification - and amusement - the Colin Lyster frame I have here is MIG welded.
One of a small batch (3 or 4, i don't know) for CB450 engines built under his supervision shortly before he died.
I hope to finish it this winter, health permitting.

Bert

24th May 2016, 23:08

I'm assuming Scott won't want to try another KTM ?

Wonder if the local Mahindra importers would come to the party...

Scotty didn't have much involvement with the KTM (IMD) other than frame. It has been a little unlucky project (but luck relates to preparation in my books). Apparently you can buy one (IMD) for 15+K (did you know that Scotty - man your going to be busy with all the orders)...

Mahindra, hadn't thought about that.
Maybe GPR needs to do a proposal to them.

Grumph

25th May 2016, 06:30

Scotty didn't have much involvement with the KTM (IMD) other than frame. It has been a little unlucky project (but luck relates to preparation in my books). Apparently you can buy one (IMD) for 15+K (did you know that Scotty - man your going to be busy with all the orders)...

Mahindra, hadn't thought about that.
Maybe GPR needs to do a proposal to them.

I was vaguely aware Scott was involved with the IMD but thought he'd done a KTM bucket motor too ?
I remember some posts on it but didn't it break ?

Mahindra are trying to get exposure in the NZ market - I'd say well worth an approach.

Bert

25th May 2016, 07:38

I was vaguely aware Scott was involved with the IMD but thought he'd done a KTM bucket motor too ?
I remember some posts on it but didn't it break ?

Mahindra are trying to get exposure in the NZ market - I'd say well worth an approach.

Wires crossed, my bad. Yes there is a KTM super bucket.

chrisc

25th May 2016, 12:49

Hoping Frits sees this to continue the conversation on Freetech 50 chassis:

There must have been something wrong with the timing of that AM6's balance shaft then. The AM6 can be quite civilized, vibration-wise.
I don't know all the engines that could be considered, but Derbi seems to be the most-chosen engine, preferably pimped with a KTM 50SX cylinder or an Emot cylinder.

Did I? My intention has rather been to comment on the inappropriateness of an RS125 chassis, or any other 125 cc chassis for that matter.
They are simply too heavy for a decent 50 cc racer. Anyway, see you there: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/145224-Race-chassis/page43

When I said "appropriateness of using a RS125 chassis for a freetech 50 bike", I was really alluding to you had saying they were too heavy. What's a more reasonable wet weight for a 50? Presumably the weight reduction would come from using smaller components everywhere (wheels, brakes, forks, swing arm, etc) to suit the lower power rather than one significant change (i.e. JUST the main frame)?

I think I recall you saying they have too much tyre too?
Would using a Dunlop 95/75R17 slick (front tyre) on both the front and rear of a Freetech 50 bike be more appropriate than the 95/75r17 and 115/75R17? The bike might have an odd feeling having the same sized front and rear tyres but I'd imagine a proper race 50 would always feel pretty odd compared to a larger conventional bike anyway.

Grumph

25th May 2016, 15:03

I'll be interested in his answer too. I've been saying to the bucket boys here that pushing RS125 size tyres on big circuits with around 20HP is a tad self defeating....

mr bucketracer

25th May 2016, 15:19

I was vaguely aware Scott was involved with the IMD but thought he'd done a KTM bucket motor too ?
I remember some posts on it but didn't it break ?

Mahindra are trying to get exposure in the NZ market - I'd say well worth an approach.just another bike that made me angery , bigend to small , one peice crank , weld , make a new one , or cut and spark new hole and lap ..

diesel pig

25th May 2016, 16:33

Would using a Dunlop 95/75R17 slick (front tyre) on both the front and rear of a Freetech 50 bike be more appropriate than the 95/75r17 and 115/75R17? The bike might have an odd feeling having the same sized front and rear tyres but I'd imagine a proper race 50 would always feel pretty odd compared to a larger conventional bike anyway.

It does not feel odd at all, the first two buckets I converted to 17" slicks over 15 years ago using old XL250 rear rims laced onto the original CB125 and H100 hubs were only 2.15" wide and could only really take the 90/70R17 slicks that were around second hand at the time and they handled fine given the limitations of the original frames.

chrisc

25th May 2016, 16:42

Two interesting bikes I found trawling for freetech and classic 50 information

http://forum.limburgracingteam.nl/uploads/monthly_01_2011/post-1304-129527368435.jpg

http://www.50c.nl/Archief%20Ton%20Kooyman-Album-1/Classic%20Racing/Willem%20Reindersma/slides/Willem%20Reindersma%201972.jpg

husaberg

25th May 2016, 19:09

Two interesting bikes I found trawling for freetech and classic 50 information

last time I posted that same frame (bottom)everyone was all over the welding.
http://www.hermanmeijer.nl/hemeyla/ftame.html
http://www.hermanmeijer.nl/hemeyla/frame-2.html
that bike also has as a ubber special self made gearbox and selector. (along with the rest of the bike)

http://www.hermanmeijer.nl/hemeyla/afstelen.html
http://www.hermanmeijer.nl/hemeyla/waretkoeling.html
Check out the yokes.

Frits Overmars

25th May 2016, 21:42

Hoping Frits sees this to continue the conversation on Freetech 50 chassis:
When I said "appropriateness of using a RS125 chassis for a freetech 50 bike", I was really alluding to you had saying they were too heavy. What's a more reasonable wet weight for a 50? Presumably the weight reduction would come from using smaller components everywhere (wheels, brakes, forks, swing arm, etc) to suit the lower power rather than one significant change (i.e. JUST the main frame)? I think I recall you saying they have too much tyre too?
Would using a Dunlop 95/75R17 slick (front tyre) on both the front and rear of a Freetech 50 bike be more appropriate than the 95/75r17 and 115/75R17? The bike might have an odd feeling having the same sized front and rear tyres but I'd imagine a proper race 50 would always feel pretty odd compared to a larger conventional bike anyway.The Freetech minimum weights are 55 kg for the bike and 120 kg for bike + rider, so you would want to get as close as possible to those 55 kg.321859
When you start with a Honda RS125 chassis it will be difficult to even get below 70 kg.
What's more, for racing on kart tracks the RS125 wheelbase is too long. And I'm talking about the 1220 mm NX4 now.
The old Honda NF4 with its 1280 mm wheelbase was too long even for 125 cc Grand Prix racing; Honda didn't change it without a reason.
Being a big rider is no argument for a long wheelbase. A german friend of mine is big. I don't know quite how big, but judge for yourself: he's on the left, yours truly (1,76 m) is center (and on the right is hollands brightest young tuner, Harm van Gaalen, hvg-engineering.com).
321856 321857
My german friend is not really light either; he tips the scales at 103 kg in his shorts; that's 116 kg with full riding gear.
He develops Simson tuning parts for a living (www.langtuning.de (http://www.langtuning.de/)) and he races them as well. But can you believe him winning multiple championships on aircooled 50s?
He is a talented rider and his engines are the best but he would not stand a chance without his homebuilt frames: light, stiff, straight mild steel tubes (no fancy chro-moly), 1200 mm wheelbase, weight concentrated on the front wheel.
And notice his rear tire width. It doesn't last forever but it gives unrivaled steering precision. (while you're at it, notice the cooling fins on the clutch cover).
321858

chrisc

26th May 2016, 09:07

dark art

26th May 2016, 14:04

EDIT:
Been thinking about what would be suitable wheels for a freetech 50 with 95/75r17s front and rear slicks. The Honda NS-1 came out with 17x2.15 and 17x2.75 wheels to take a 90 front tyre and 100 rear tyre. They're really cheap, probably fairly light given their size and readily available in Japan. They're the same design as the Honda NF4 RS125 too which I think look pretty cool. Thoughts?

http://www.cars-directory.net/pics/honda/ns-1/2003/honda_ns-1_a1240499402b2631202_2_orig.jpg

I have the same ns1 as the picture. They are freely available in Portugal and Spain since the exact same model came out with both the 75cc engine (ns-1) and the 50cc engine(nsr50), they share the same chassis and most parts except engine related. Can give you any specs or wheigts of the bike.

husaberg

26th May 2016, 15:02

What a legend. Man those bikes look like they've had a tonne of development. Thanks for pointing those minimum weights out Frits.
I know all about big riders overcoming their clear mass disadvantages. In this years 125GP national series, Ashley Weller (106kg, literally works as a lumber jack) made a fool of me on a number of occasions (60kg, spreadsheet jockey) due to better race craft and strong consistency. Tip of the hat to him, deserved every result. He's also very tall but with a longer seat subframe, foot peg hangers, handle bar mounts, and a big A-kit honda front fairing, he was able to fit 'better' on the tiny RS125.

Interested to see more of that bike he's riding. Looks like it might have an Aprilia RS125 front end and a home made swing arm.

EDIT:
Been thinking about what would be suitable wheels for a freetech 50 with 95/75r17s front and rear slicks. The Honda NS-1 came out with 17x2.15 and 17x2.75 wheels to take a 90 front tyre and 100 rear tyre. They're really cheap, probably fairly light given their size and readily available in Japan. They're the same design as the Honda NF4 RS125 too which I think look pretty cool. Thoughts?

Moriwaki did a race bike version of the NS1.
MH80R
http://www.moriwaki.co.jp/global/product/md250_08.php

MORIWAKI used to produce “MH80R”, GP80 road racer with HONDA NS-1 chassis and CR80 MX engine.
There were 2 major concepts in MH80R.
1. It must have a reasonable price so more people can experience the machine, and 2. It must be a good tool to improve riding skill.
MORIWAKI chose a standard street bike frame and 80cc 2-stroke engine to achieve low cost. HONDA genuine parts are also intentionally used instead of special made racing parts.
It was because of its cost but also to restrict its performance. The “restricted performance” machine requires riders to understand the machine behavior and engine characteristics to run fast. When riders think while they ride and try to improve, they will be able to build up riding skill inevitably.
Many riders would be confused at their first experience with MH80R and thinking why this bike doesn’t stop, grip or turn. But soon they will realize importance of its strange characteristic as they continue riding it. Riders need to control the bike certainly… in other words, “It’s a great tool to correct bad riding habit and improve riding style.”
It is easy to see importance of having such motorcycle by counting numbers of riders in the history of WGP and WSB who once trained with MH80R, and the bike is still used for that purpose in recent years.

I'm pretty sure they use them in Aussie.
Don't be fooled by the frame, its Ferous painted to look Al
http://www.classicandracebike.co.uk/classic-motorbike-images/moriwaki/classic-moriwaki-mh80r-for-sale-tt2g2ho1b3-supermax.jpg

Pumba

26th May 2016, 16:17

The “restricted performance” machine requires riders to understand the machine behavior and engine characteristics to run fast. When riders think while they ride and try to improve, they will be able to build up riding skill inevitably.
Many riders would be confused at their first experience with MH80R and thinking why this bike doesn’t stop, grip or turn. But soon they will realize importance of its strange characteristic as they continue riding it. Riders need to control the bike certainly… in other words, “It’s a great tool to correct bad riding habit and improve riding style.”

Is that the PC way of saying "the bike is underpowered and handles like poo, but if you figure it out, ride the wheels off it, and not crash you are going to be a pretty sharp rider"?

husaberg

26th May 2016, 16:38

Grumph

26th May 2016, 19:30

Is that the PC way of saying "the bike is underpowered and handles like poo, but if you figure it out, ride the wheels off it, and not crash you are going to be a pretty sharp rider"?

I think it a polite Japanese way of suggesting that it rewards a smooth riding style with high momentum and not point and squirt.

Both are correct, lol...I remember seeing that Wayne Gardner and sons had ridden them in Aussie at a meeting somewhere to help get publicity for the class.
He said much the same things - politely.

husaberg

26th May 2016, 19:34

Both are correct, lol...I remember seeing that Wayne Gardner and sons had ridden them in Aussie at a meeting somewhere to help get publicity for the class.
He said much the same things - politely.

Funny enough, I can't think of a rider, that was more a pointer and squirter than Wayne himself:lol:
Gusty buggar though...

F5 Dave

26th May 2016, 19:35

My RG50 was 59.5kg wet but no gas. My RS went up a couple and to 63 with a small amount of gas but bigger RS wheels. I used to run 95 on the rear but on bumpy tracks you could trust the 115 more and I was faster despite the heavier rim and drag. New slicks every time would help address that.

Frits Overmars

28th May 2016, 04:01

Another advantage of a short wheelbase:
321891

F5 Dave

28th May 2016, 13:14

One trip down south we got 5 buckets in a short wheelbase HiAce van, with only wheels/pipe off the last one.

Grumph

28th May 2016, 13:27

One trip down south we got 5 buckets in a short wheelbase HiAce van, with only wheels/pipe off the last one.

If you'd come down on the old interisland ferry, you wouldn't have liked the Lyttelton road tunnel tolls - They used to charge for every vehicle or bike through even if they were on a trailer or in a van...
It was hilarious to watch George Begg working himself up on the subject. I think he came to blows with a tollbooth attendant once bringing a racecar through on a trailer. Had to pay for towcar, trailer and racecar....

Frits Overmars

28th May 2016, 21:16

If you'd come down on the old interisland ferry, you wouldn't have liked the Lyttelton road tunnel tolls - They used to charge for every vehicle or bike through even if they were on a trailer or in a van.Makes me wonder: how far would you have to take a bike to pieces so it wouldn't count as a vehicle any more? Wheels out? Forks out? Engine out? Angle-grinding the frame?

F5 Dave

28th May 2016, 21:40

I think after the 70s that problem probably went away.

Grumph

29th May 2016, 06:32

I think after the 70s that problem probably went away.

Sailed away actually...

I know two guys here who used to go up on Friday night with their racebikes, ride them Wgtn to Levin Sat AM and race on the Saturday.
Ride them back to the ferry for the Sat night sailing back to Lyttelton - remember everything had to be registered then...
Then to Ruapuna for a Sunday meeting...After which it was home to bed for work on Monday morning...

One was riding a 7R AJS - and says he was never stopped by a cop...

Anyway to bring it back on chassis thread, I'm told the 7R had tiedown points added to the frame. Some restorer has probably wondered what they were as he was cutting them off....

WilDun

21st June 2016, 22:37

One was riding a 7R AJS - and says he was never stopped by a cop...

Grumph,
Might ask you a few questions about frames, tubing sizes and materials etc. when I have got used to my TIG welder (if I ever do). Looks very interesting, ie. building steel frames, except that I've left it all a little bit late to try out my planned creations myself! - I built one about 45 years ago by bronze welding - it wasn't too bad.

Also wanted to say that way back I remember a guy having a swivelling dummy hub (tube) on the towbar of his car and he drove to and from the races towing his 7R with the front wheel removed and the forks bolted to this hub by an "axle" or bolt.
He did that for a couple of years without ever being hauled up by the cops! - not sure how the 7R stood up to that sort of treatment though.

Grumph

22nd June 2016, 05:41

Grumph,
Might ask you a few questions about frames, tubing sizes and materials etc. when I have got used to my TIG welder (if I ever do). Looks very interesting, ie. building steel frames, except that I've left it all a little bit late to try out my planned creations myself! - I built one about 45 years ago by bronze welding - it wasn't too bad.

Also wanted to say that way back I remember a guy having a swivelling dummy hub (tube) on the towbar of his car and he drove to and from the races towing his 7R with the front wheel removed and the forks bolted to this hub by an "axle" or bolt.
He did that for a couple of years without ever being hauled up by the cops! - not sure how the 7R stood up to that sort of treatment though.

No probs Will, happy to make suggestions. That method of towing bikes is very old. The clever people doing it, remove the final drive chain before moving off...
Sadly with today's traffic regs, it's probably illegal.

Ocean1

22nd June 2016, 08:25

No probs Will, happy to make suggestions. That method of towing bikes is very old. The clever people doing it, remove the final drive chain before moving off...
Sadly with today's traffic regs, it's probably illegal.

I dunno, you can still use an A frame to tow a car...

WilDun

22nd June 2016, 11:43

I dunno, you can still use an A frame to tow a car...

Yeah, I once spent an evening welding up an A Frame to tow an old van to a place near near Hamilton (my mate's place), the height was wrong and I nearly got the back wheels of my car up in the air first time I braked! - took it back and re hashed it all, then proceeded to drive it to Hamilton, seemed ok but I was more cautious this time!
On the way, I was followed by a traffic cop till I got fed up with him following me and pulled over. He just drove slowly past and carried on, so must've been legal!

If I had been responsible for inspecting these things then, I would not have been too keen on allowing that one on the road!
Then today I wouldn't allow mobility scooters either, dangerous bloody things! (and I own one). :oi-grr:

REVIEW, come to think of it the dummy hub on the towbar, (mentioned earlier in post 685) didn't actually swivel.

WilDun

28th June 2016, 10:55

GRUMPH,
I am interested in learning to use a tig welder especially for welding steel tube.
Looking at the Waddon frame right at the beginning of this thread (posted by Cotswold), which looks like an easy and hopefully useful project to have a go at, but I'm not entirely sure what sort of tubing to use with TIG.
Way back I built a conventional (featherbed style) frame out of 17 gauge cold drawn seamless (MS?) but bronze welded it and it worked fine.
A lot of people appear to be using 4130 now which it seems is ok for TIG but not for bronze and also I have read somewhere that you still need to be careful about technique when using TIG for this material.
I believe you have had quite a lot of experience building single tube frames, so what gauge and type of tube would you use (for TIG), say in the case of a Waddon style frame (bucket size)? :confused:

Michael Moore

28th June 2016, 11:23

Mild steel has the same stiffness as the stronger steels like 4130/531, it just isn't as crashable (unless you can gauge your crashes well enough to put enough force in the frame to bend mild steel but not 4130 -- most people can't crash that precisely).

Tony Foale's original TZ250 frames were 2.00" OD x 16g wall. He has mentioned to me that if he were to build another of those TZ frames (which he isn't) he'd go up to 2.25" OD to account for modern tires. I started a similar frame and decided to use 2.5" x 16g, just to be extra safe. The big Kawasaki street and race frames were 3" tube.

Waddons were designed and built by a former employee of his (with some detail changes). He's told me there was a bit of a stir when at one of the shows Waddon was doing a big-deal debut of their amazing new frame. A friend of Tony's gave him some space on his stand to put one of Tony's TZs on display, which apparently caused some red faces on the Waddon stand and some amusement among the show attendees.

Tony's Picasa album is here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/113749999061223276003

cheers,
Michael

WilDun

28th June 2016, 13:04

Thanks Michael,
A lot of very interesting stuff on there! it was available in most of the motorcycle mags and books then but there's hardly any real technical stuff in the mags etc these days, (all glitz and glamour instead), but we can now get it easily and quickly on the net instead.

However, I'm not really into the politics of companies trying to grab the upper hand etc. - these problems were sorted years ago and I haven't heard of Waddon since then.
Really just looking for a basic recipe for a 'middle of the road' experimental bike to dabble with (but not to ride) till I can't do that anymore (I would also like to fly planes, but my wife said "over my dead body"!).

Must say that if so much info was was as easily accessed back in my younger days, I would probably never have got married - wouldn't have had time to even consider that (I still could have grabbed the odd tender moment on the run though!).

However, I did do just that (marry that is) with no regrets, but ....... if only I had married into money, I could have fed my bike habit! :rolleyes:

Grumph

28th June 2016, 16:28

Michael's pretty much covered it Will. There's a point where tube thickness gets too big to comfortably bronze weld. Personally, knowing what's on the NZ market in mild steel seamed tube, I'd use 1.8mm wall, around 2.25 - 2.5 inch OD. Rather than the old SWG thicknesses it's sold in metric sizes - 16SWG is 1.6mm so 1.8mm is just a tad heavier. From 2.0mm wall I get major joins TIG welded.
Most of the steel suppliers will sell you a 5M stick - and cut it so you can get it home.

For the seamed mild tube, i use a biggish soft fillet of manganese bronze rod. Soft tube, soft bronze.
For a better quality tube - less liable to crack - I've used nickel bronze. I don't like using it on the soft ERW stuff as the joints finish up stiffer than the tube...

As an aside, I'm going to have to stand further back when my mate TIG's stuff for me now - I'm told the new pacemaker doesn't like it....

WilDun

28th June 2016, 17:33

Michael's pretty much covered it Will. For the seamed mild tube, i use a biggish soft fillet of manganese bronze rod. Soft tube, soft bronze.
For a better quality tube - less liable to crack - I've used nickel bronze....... I'm going to have to stand further back when my mate TIG's stuff for me now - I'm told the new pacemaker doesn't like it....

Think you might be right about the pacemaker!

A pacemaker is about the only thing I don't have, :laugh: and I'm determined to have a go at TIG!
So do you guys think it's not really necessary to go to seamless tube? - Probably not really important for me as I'm only dabbling and not aiming to embark on a career of bike building or racing - but who knows, if I could by a miracle get one on the track, maybe some young guy could test it for me. :rolleyes:

Grumph

28th June 2016, 19:44

Think you might be right about the pacemaker!

A pacemaker is about the only thing I don't have, :laugh: and I'm determined to have a go at TIG!
So do you guys think it's not really necessary to go to seamless tube? - Probably not really important for me as I'm only dabbling and not aiming to embark on a career of bike building or racing - but who knows, if I could by a miracle get one on the track, maybe some young guy could test it for me. :rolleyes:

Hey, I'm now idling comfortably at 60 BPM and don't want to upset that...
Yes, i'm saying that for your purposes, seamed mild steel will be quite adequate. One big plus is that it's pretty ductile as received.
The optional DOM tube which is nominally the same steel and is available to order, is often not ductile at all...at least here in NZ anyway.
I know one old school frame builder here - with plenty of UK experience - who uses it. BUT he always does a bend test on sample pieces before using a particular stick. His rejection rate is high he tells me...Too costly for me.

If you can gas weld they tell me you should be able to TIG - I can't as my eyes don't adapt fast enough. So I'm happy with gas...

WilDun

28th June 2016, 23:53

Hey, I'm now idling comfortably at 60 BPM and don't want to upset that...
Yes, i'm saying that for your purposes, seamed mild steel will be quite adequate.
If you can gas weld they tell me you should be able to TIG - I can't as my eyes don't adapt fast enough. So I'm happy with gas...

Yeah, you wouldn't want to upset that rythm!

I used to be a dab hand at bronze welding on tubular steel, but funny enough I never did much actual gas welding. I have (once or twice) had a go at TIG and I daresay that like everything else, practice will make perfect - no doubt I could master it, but with the price of Argon that could be expensive if I'm a slow learner, so I'll dive in at the deep end and do the least important parts first!

Brazing (bronze welding) I always enjoyed, but that was using vapoflux (which worked a treat) and was in the acetelene line, this was at a factory where I used to work, - they also had great bending gear which I loved to use! - I guess I was a bit of a thief really :eek5:.

Nowadays even though I have the welding torches etc. I just can't afford the gas! I have heard though that it is possible to use (much cheaper) LPG as a substitite for acetelene, ie for brazing??.

It's all just a thought as yet, but I'd like to make it a reality as soon as I've mastered my foundry work of course! - then I can finally kick the 'bucket' in peace! :) (excuse the pun!).

Ocean1

29th June 2016, 00:11

Nowadays even though I have the welding torches etc. I just can't afford the gas! I have heard though that it is possible to use (much cheaper) LPG as a substitite for acetelene, ie for brazing??.

You can use Propane/OXY for brazing, which is a fair bit cheaper, but not Propane by itself.

For very light stuff you can use straight MAPP gas, but probably not for 16swg tube and certainly not with any of the above bronze rods.

PS: you'll need to damn near double the tip size.

Grumph

29th June 2016, 06:40

Brazing (bronze welding) I always enjoyed, but that was using vapoflux (which worked a treat) and was in the acetelene line, this was at a factory where I used to work, - they also had great bending gear which I loved to use! - I guess I was a bit of a thief really :eek5:.

Nowadays even though I have the welding torches etc. I just can't afford the gas! I have heard though that it is possible to use (much cheaper) LPG as a substitite for acetelene, ie for brazing??.

I got offered an inline fluxer some years back - but after finding out what a flux refill cost at the time, I declined it. With good cleaning practices on the workpiece, you can do without it.

Gas in NZ is a perpetual problem. BOC have had almost a monopoly for decades but if you look around there are now alternatives. Down here, at least two mobs have started up then been bought out by BOC...We've still got a couple going though who are cheaper than BOC. One here in ChCh is doing Acetylene cylinders - leased - which actually come with a gauge...Another - Southern Gases - is bringing cylinders in from Aussie. They're local to me so they're who I use. Ask around in the trade local to you Will, often these places don't advertise.

WilDun

29th June 2016, 09:00

Gas in NZ is a perpetual problem. BOC have had almost a monopoly for decades but if you look around there are now alternatives........... often these places don't advertise.

There are quite a few small outfits up here (Auckland) too - recently when I was in hospital, there was a young guy in the other bed who said that he worked for a crowd who refilled cylinders, sorta got the impression that they would fill just about any cylinder cheap, but I guess there is a very fine line between cheap refillers and cowboys and it is a dangerous business with the non-inert gases - even with the inert gases sometimes!
I would like to bronze weld again, but having a little TIG machine now - the only real reason for building a frame was to get familiar with using that and I think I should probably persevere and learn to use it properly in the meantime.

Grumph

29th June 2016, 12:33

Did you realise you can bronze weld using a TIG plant ? Seen it done but don't know the gas requirement.
Google is your friend...

WilDun

29th June 2016, 15:21

Did you realise you can bronze weld using a TIG plant ? Seen it done but don't know the gas requirement.
Google is your friend...

Yes, I had considered that - I once saw it done on YouTube but I was not impressed by the spread of the bronze, the bead looked a bit too concentrated (as in a weld) but I'm sure it could be better done with a bigger ceramic and spread out a bit by having the tip a bit further back into the ceramic - I dunno of course, but just an idea, somebody must be familiar with the process.

dark art

29th June 2016, 21:40

Yes, I had considered that - I once saw it done on YouTube but I was not impressed by the spread of the bronze, the bead looked a bit too concentrated (as in a weld) but I'm sure it could be better done with a bigger ceramic and spread out a bit by having the tip a bit further back into the ceramic - I dunno of course, but just an idea, somebody must be familiar with the process.

I have TIG brazed and have some rods around. Sil-bronze is the stuff I used. I am not a good welder but it seems it work best on mild steel if fusion/brazed at the same time. It is possible to braze cast iron and some inox stuff as well.
The beads seem wider than TIG fusion but not like gas brazing, gas requirements are pretty much the same like fusion welding, since I weld a lot of thin stuff, use low amps and my argon is set around 3.5 l/min.

WilDun

29th June 2016, 22:01

I have TIG brazed and have some rods around. Sil-bronze is the stuff I used ......... it seems it work best on mild steel if fusion/brazed at the same time.

I certainly could not be called a good welder either!
Not quite sure what you mean by "fusion/brazing" does that mean "tinning" - ie when a thin layer of braze is applied before applying the fillet?
I always found that fusion temperatures (as in fusion welding on mild steel) burned the metal and the bronze would not take unless the part was properly cleaned up to remove the oxide etc, but then I may be totally on to the wrong wavelength here!

dark art

30th June 2016, 00:37

Not quite sure what you mean by "fusion/brazing" does that mean "tinning"

I should have been more clear, after re-reading my post, it seems very confusing :facepalm:

The TIG rods I have seem that can be used both to weld (fusion) and to braze (tinning). If not too much temperature is used (or the bronze start to burn), fusion weld with sil-bronze rods seem to produce a acceptable weld.
The best way I can weld mild steel with them seem to be both fusion and brazing at the same time. Create a small puddle and let the bronze flow at the sides of the puddle. This maybe because of lack of technique and skill but the hammer tests (not much scientific huh) hold pretty good.

Later today will post the spec of the rods and maybe some pictures.

Grumph

30th June 2016, 06:49

WilDun

30th June 2016, 10:34

If you've got the spec of your rods you're doing better than us here in NZ....From my own enquiries, the manganese bronze rod is roughly the old basic sifbronze and the nickel rod is pretty low nickel content.

So I guess that with common or garden mild steel I should use good old common or garden sif bronze rods (I think that the "SIF" originally referred to Suffolk Iron Foundries who produced them - amongst a lot of other stuff).
I'm sure that is the bronze I used for the frame I built all those years ago but I'll never know because the factory doesn't exist any more and I never really knew anyway, but I used their premises, their gear, their time, their materials (borrowed and stolen respectively :eek5:) and everything worked fine! - no bloody wonder the factory doesn't exist anymore! :msn-wink:
In fairness to myself though, must say I did buy the seamless tubing from somewhere else! (HS White maybe??).

I think I'll just use TIG welded tube, but also have an (experimental) stab at bronze welding with TIG as well and see which turns out best, - ie with my "suck it and see" attitude and the seemingly questionable bronze we have here!

That attitude actually worked out well with my foundry furnace burner!

dark art

1st July 2016, 00:30

If you've got the spec of your rods you're doing better than us here in NZ....The major welding suppliers here only supply what they call "manganese bronze rod" and "nickel bronze rod" over the counter. Yes some rods with known spec are available to special order but if you don't know what's available they won't tell you...
I went in to one of my local suppliers with a photo copy of the rod spec page from "The Racing Motorcycle" and it was greeted with astonishment. Where did you get this ? Can we have a copy ? Ha bloody Ha.
From my own enquiries, the manganese bronze rod is roughly the old basic sifbronze and the nickel rod is pretty low nickel content.

http://www.abracor.com/en/products?product=a12e1725-0664-4853-bc38-164048cc5082

This is what I bought.
Never had any luck on local shops either, those guys had a very cheap product (around 50% less than local shops) and good service, was around 120 euros for 5kg pack.
Another way to get some small quantity for er-cusi-a welding rods, is to find someone that weld copper alloys with MIG. MIG wire works very good with TIG, I guess its the very same product, although, 1mm thick wire does consume fast :laugh:

That´s a funny story, talking about the great book, is still my motorcycle bible and Michael Moore was one of the responsibles :bleh:

WilDun

1st July 2016, 15:45

http://www.abracor.com/en/products?product=a12e1725-0664-4853-bc38-164048cc5082
MIG wire works very good with TIG, I guess its the very same product, although, 1mm thick wire does consume fast :laugh:

I bought 3 rolls of steel mig wire cheap, spools had broken and in order to get a decent size rod for TIG, I used an old hand drill to wind two suitable lengths tightly together - looks like a thoroughly professional job (and very artistic) - hopefully it will work ok. ie when I finally get into welding, - so far, so good.

mr bucketracer

1st July 2016, 17:05

I bought 3 rolls of steel mig wire cheap, spools had broken and in order to get a decent size rod for TIG, I used an old hand drill to wind two suitable lengths tightly together - looks like a thoroughly professional job (and very artistic) - hopefully it will work ok. ie when I finally get into welding, - so far, so good. s mic duck lol

WilDun

1st July 2016, 17:26

s mic duck lol

Wot ? :confused:

mr bucketracer

1st July 2016, 18:35

Wot ? :confused:Scrooge McDuck lol , just get the right welding wire , not that easy for us old guys at the best of times

Grumph

1st July 2016, 19:26

Scrooge McDuck lol , just get the right welding wire , not that easy for us old guys at the best of times

I agree he's a scrooge, lol. Cunning B.

What suppliers in the central NI do you use Scott ? Anyone local to you who carries good rods, bronze and steel ? Gas in your area ?

WilDun

1st July 2016, 21:39

Scrooge McDuck lol , just get the right welding wire , not that easy for us old guys at the best of times

Yeah, guess you're right there, but it's either that or sit looking out the window waiting for death to take me out of my misery........ f**k that! so I'll just remain a (happy) old scrooge and keep blabbering on! :yes:

mr bucketracer

2nd July 2016, 08:34

I agree he's a scrooge, lol. Cunning B.

What suppliers in the central NI do you use Scott ? Anyone local to you who carries good rods, bronze and steel ? Gas in your area ?i get all my rods from a place techweld , gas from air Air Liquide . its the hiring of the gas that kills it

mr bucketracer

2nd July 2016, 08:40

Yeah, guess you're right there, but it's either that or sit looking out the window waiting for death to take me out of my misery........ f**k that! so I'll just remain a (happy) old scrooge and keep blabbering on! :yes:get some 1.6mm rod , for something like 10- 15 dollars i get over a kg of rod , lasts a long time , i have tryed to tig with mig rod and find it shivles to nothing , very hard to weld been around that 1mm in diametre

Grumph

2nd July 2016, 08:43

i get all my rods from a place techweld , gas from air Air Liquide

As expected - neither of them are down here....

WilDun

2nd July 2016, 12:45

get some 1.6mm rod , for something like 10- 15 dollars i get over a kg of rod , lasts a long time , i have tryed to tig with mig rod and find it shivles to nothing , very hard to weld been around that 1mm in diametre

Just reinforces my theory - two or 3 migs twisted together, I have easily enough to see me out now, for about $20!
It was actually the supplier who told me to do that, as he didn't happen to have any TIG rods on the shelf at the time and I guess that he could see that I was a bit of a scrooge and so looking for a lower price.

I find that a lot of suppliers will give me a good deal ie welding suppliers, steel suppliers, foundry suppliers and the scrapyard guys too - There are a lot of good guys around as well as villains! - I haven't even needed to produce my gold card yet!

Oh, BTW, very few Aucklanders actually belong to the "latte set" only the self important wankers who make up about 1% of the population and like to get themselves on TV. (definitely no bucketeers)!

Grumph

2nd July 2016, 14:28

get some 1.6mm rod , for something like 10- 15 dollars i get over a kg of rod , lasts a long time , i have tryed to tig with mig rod and find it shivles to nothing , very hard to weld been around that 1mm in diametre

yeah, I do the same for Fe welding rod, bulk pack lasts years - even using it as tie wire, lol...

Have you tried TIG with 20G (.9mm) stainless tie wire yet ? You may be surprised...

dark art

2nd July 2016, 22:30

yeah, I do the same for Fe welding rod, bulk pack lasts years - even using it as tie wire, lol...

Have you tried TIG with 20G (.9mm) stainless tie wire yet ? You may be surprised...

Tie wire and fence wire have been widely used with gas weld, never heard with TIG, though. The mild steel (er-70s6 seem common) TIG rods seem to produce a much cleaner puddle than the MIG wire, it flow better as well, probably has higher silicon content.

Here in Europe is resonably easy to get welding rods, most of them are 5kg pack, wich makes very expensive for special rods. Can you guys import rods from Europe or USA?

Grumph

3rd July 2016, 06:15

Tie wire and fence wire have been widely used with gas weld, never heard with TIG, though. The mild steel (er-70s6 seem common) TIG rods seem to produce a much cleaner puddle than the MIG wire, it flow better as well, probably has higher silicon content.

Here in Europe is resonably easy to get welding rods, most of them are 5kg pack, wich makes very expensive for special rods. Can you guys import rods from Europe or USA?

The size of the market in Europe of course makes finding these products easier. Yes, we can import, several places here will get them in to order as well.
Just not easy...One of the drawbacks of living in paradise....

Yow Ling

3rd July 2016, 14:37

As expected - neither of them are down here....

Air Liquide is in Hornby, its the old Carbonic Ice, there is a gas supplier in Rolleston I think, Ill find out soon enough
The Welding place in annex road can get owner bottles filled so no need to go to BOC

timg

3rd July 2016, 15:58

there is a gas supplier in Rolleston I think Yep, Southern Gas. Easy folks to deal with.

Grumph

3rd July 2016, 16:40

Air Liquide is in Hornby, its the old Carbonic Ice, there is a gas supplier in Rolleston I think, Ill find out soon enough
The Welding place in annex road can get owner bottles filled so no need to go to BOC

Thanks Mike - wasn't aware of the new name for carbonic Ice. They're the ones supplying acetylene cylinders complete with gauge.
I use Southern gases for both gas bottles now. Quite good to deal with too. A mate uses Air Liquide for acetylene and BOC for Oxy - in total pays more than me.

Dave Pearce

14th July 2016, 21:38

Nice!
Always wondered two things:
1) how people can build such beautiful projects with such hideously dirty and messy workshops. Probably because they're the type of people to just get on with it and make something rather than fuss about stuff like tidiness.
2) if I (a total amateur racer) would be able to feel the handling differences from the short stumpy fuel tanks Moto3 bikes run now, vs. the older conventional style tanks of the Honda RS125 etc.

Something to ponder at least.

Dave Pearce here the bloke with the untidy workshop. That picture was taken after 4months of flat out work by one person (ME) to build a proper Moto 3 bike for the British championship full of KTM's & Honda's and bloody competitive. If the workshop took a bit of a battering it was all worth it. I got the Wife to sweep up while we were winning the first race at Brands Hatch. This is a totally private project between a few mates . (I'm supposed to be retired) There is no connection whatsoever with Mahindra. The various components were obtained as part of another deal. Any questions regarding the chassis etc I will try to answer within reason.

Dave Pearce

15th July 2016, 02:12

Well, that's your invite to my workshop rescinded...unless you bring a brush and shovel.

Any of the GPR frames ever used a tank dropped down in the frame ? Like a few guys used on ZXR400's and FZR 400's.
I'm also contemplating a box structure steering head for direct input to the airbox. That tigcraft has given me ideas how to do it.

I also note that Dave's seat subframes are getting stiffer. The sheet structure must be much stiffer than his earlier tubular versions.
Can we assume that the rider's physical input was causing flex ? Shades of the bolted up vs welded up featherbed...

I don't remember ever making tubular sub frames .Some RS125 Sub frames on the 450 like Jason's. Mostly Carbon or alloy sheet

Grumph

15th July 2016, 05:56

I don't remember ever making tubular sub frames .Some RS125 Sub frames on the 450 like Jason's. Mostly Carbon or alloy sheet

Welcome to the forum Dave. Good to have another semi retired bike builder here, lol.

I had seen pics of your minimotos and a few SOS frames and had assumed that there was a progression toward the sheet subframes.
Philosophically, it can't be argued - the sheet versions are stiffer, lighter and cheaper....no contest.
I have priced up doing a structural seat in CF or alloy, here in NZ, no....

The air intake steering head structure on the Mahindra interests me. Had you considered running the frame tubes to the box rather than to the head tube ?
I'm looking at doing much the same here and at present can't see any significant reason not to just go to the box.

Dave Pearce

15th July 2016, 07:18

Grumph

15th July 2016, 09:23

What name do I address you by?.

I've tried a few different ways with the Headstock intake. The method you perfectly reasonably suggest comes out heavy as the box needs to be structural whereas the one on my Moto3 is made in 2mm 5083 alu riveted to the waisted fabricated (5 pieces) headstock. I made the duct /front fairing bracket in 1050 soft alu then took a mould and had a couple made up in carbon.

That 2mm 5083 subframe is real easy to make. I have NO metal forming stuff so I just form it over a convenient block of wood with a large soft mallet. At the 2nd race the bike had a horrendous crash (Both wheels knackered+ all the normal stuff) The subframe was useable later in the day.

Thanks for the info Dave. I had been looking at the Foggy Petronas pics in The Racing Motorcycle, where the duct is structural - but in alloy like the rest of the frame. i'm assuming that in that particular case the stiffness was adequate without a weight penalty.
You've got enough metal forming gear - Italian F1 cars had the bodies beaten over a tree stump for years. When Fantuzzi shifted across town from Maserati to Ferrari, he took the stump with him....

Call me Greg - Greg Thomas. This was a predominantly NZ based forum and enough people here know me that it wasn't a problem...But on this thread we now have you and Michael. And on the ESE tuning thread, some of the worlds best 2 stroke tuners....So lets rip off the veil, LOL.

Greg

husaberg

15th July 2016, 17:02

What name do I address you by?.

I've tried a few different ways with the Headstock intake. The method you perfectly reasonably suggest comes out heavy as the box needs to be structural whereas the one on my Moto3 is made in 2mm 5083 alu riveted to the waisted fabricated (5 pieces) headstock. I made the duct /front fairing bracket in 1050 soft alu then took a mould and had a couple made up in carbon.

That 2mm 5083 subframe is real easy to make. I have NO metal forming stuff so I just form it over a convenient block of wood with a large soft mallet. At the 2nd race the bike had a horrendous crash (Both wheels knackered+ all the normal stuff) The subframe was useable later in the day.

Its great to have you here Mr TigCraft
I have followed your work for years. I was actually intending to post some pics and a story that was ran in a local magazine of the frame you did for the Aprlia V twin that was raced here. but I have yet to get around to it.
Could I trouble you for a picture of your frame jig. I have been assembling a collection of jig pictures.

chrisc

15th July 2016, 17:15

Dave Pearce here the bloke with the untidy workshop. That picture was taken after 4months of flat out work by one person (ME) to build a proper Moto 3 bike for the British championship full of KTM's & Honda's and bloody competitive. If the workshop took a bit of a battering it was all worth it. I got the Wife to sweep up while we were winning the first race at Brands Hatch. This is a totally private project between a few mates . (I'm supposed to be retired) There is no connection whatsoever with Mahindra. The various components were obtained as part of another deal. Any questions regarding the chassis etc I will try to answer within reason.

Good to have you here Dave! And very impressed with your creations. Hopefully we can keep the discussion interesting enough to keep you coming back, as the ESE thread does with 2 stroke tuning.

mr bucketracer

15th July 2016, 17:50

Its great to have you here Mr TigerCraft
I have followed your work for years. I was actually intending to post some pics and a story that was ran in a local magazine of the frame you did for the Aprlia V twin that was raced here. but I have yet to get around to it.
Could I trouble you for a picture of your frame jig. I have been assembling a collection of jig pictures.its a good wright up , only have it in a pdf so you better use your magic

husaberg

15th July 2016, 19:41

its a good wright up , only have it in a pdf so you better use your magic

You still have my email?
Actually scratch that I have a new email anyway lol
check ya pm's

edit thanks Scott
Click on them three times to supersize them (for those with the old age shortsightedness)
Sorry its a bit blurry I might fix it later.
323098323099

Bert

16th July 2016, 08:58

Welcome Dave.

I've always admired your Tigcraft frames (blown away the first time I saw Jason's in the flesh).
Please keep us informed on the moto3 project. Sounds like you have it performing really well; it would be nice to see more of these bikes being built here...

I've got a little question for you.

What is the entended purpose of this front mounts between the frame spars (picture below)? Are they for a front wheel stand?
If so, could you be so nice to post a picture of it in action?

323100

Dave Pearce

17th July 2016, 21:53

Thanks for the info Dave. I had been looking at the Foggy Petronas pics in The Racing Motorcycle, where the duct is structural - but in alloy like the rest of the frame. i'm assuming that in that particular case the stiffness was adequate without a weight penalty.
You've got enough metal forming gear - Italian F1 cars had the bodies beaten over a tree stump for years. When Fantuzzi shifted across town from Maserati to Ferrari, he took the stump with him....

Call me Greg - Greg Thomas. This was a predominantly NZ based forum and enough people here know me that it wasn't a problem...But on this thread we now have you and Michael. And on the ESE tuning thread, some of the worlds best 2 stroke tuners....So lets rip off the veil, LOL.

Greg

Greg
I was referring only to steel tube chassis re the intake. The Steve Bones PETRONAS headstock was machined from solid 5083 alu and the spars attached to that. So chalk & cheese.

Dave Pearce

17th July 2016, 22:00

Its great to have you here Mr TigCraft
I have followed your work for years. I was actually intending to post some pics and a story that was ran in a local magazine of the frame you did for the Aprlia V twin that was raced here. but I have yet to get around to it.
Could I trouble you for a picture of your frame jig. I have been assembling a collection of jig pictures.

Jason sent me Glen's article when it was first published. The bike was massively improved after that.

You have a collection of jig pictures? You must lead an exciting life mate.

Dave Pearce

17th July 2016, 22:12

husaberg

17th July 2016, 22:22

Jason sent me Glen's article when it was first published. The bike was massively improved after that.

You have a collection of jig pictures? You must lead an exciting life mate.

Yeah its all total glamour here.
I find its a great conversation starter at parties:wari:
I seem to have a few of yours anyway.
323165323166323167323168323169

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4972
I was going to say you look much saner than any pic i have seen of Simon Martin.
Good to have you here David.

jasonu

18th July 2016, 04:04

You have a collection of jig pictures? You must lead an exciting life mate.

He spends every waking hour sifting on here...

husaberg

18th July 2016, 17:03

He spends every waking hour sifting on here...

Sifting? is that americunt for not shooting people?:laugh:

mr bucketracer

18th July 2016, 20:07

Yeah its all total glamour here.
I find its a great conversation starter at parties:wari:
I seem to have a few of yours anyway.
323165323166323167323168323169

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4972
I was going to say you look much saner than any pic i have seen of Simon Martin.
Good to have you here David.you not got my jig (-; :motu:

husaberg

18th July 2016, 20:58

you not got my jig (-; :motu:

Really.................
323195323198323197 323196
Ps what so kind of tree is, the Blue on Scott, it had me stumped?:whistle:
Lawson Cypress?

mr bucketracer

18th July 2016, 21:55

Really.................
323195323198323197 323196
Ps what so kind of tree is the Blue on Scott, it had me stumped?:whistle:
Lawson Cypress?its a mack . Dont remember that picture

Grumph

19th July 2016, 06:44

its a mack . Dont remember that picture

He hasn't got mine either - but I've seen a small drone in the area...

chrisc

19th July 2016, 08:39

Really.................
323195

Scott! Hahahaha I'm starting to sound like a farking racers wife here, holy crap that's a filthy workshop hahaha. I'm so impressed you get anything done in there.

On another note, I remember you describing your 'jig' set up to me at the track. I liked your approach.

mr bucketracer

19th July 2016, 08:48

Bert

19th July 2016, 09:59

Scott! Hahahaha I'm starting to sound like a farking racers wife here, holy crap that's a filthy workshop hahaha. I'm so impressed you get anything done in there.
On another note, I remember you describing your 'jig' set up to me at the track. I liked your approach.

thats brents shed (-; , yes have told the odd person thats intrested

Man I'm feeling the love. The shed is a little cleaner than that now...:innocent:
And the bikes in the photo are a little closer to complete than they were...

chrisc

19th July 2016, 11:03

Man I'm feeling the love. The shed is a little cleaner than that now...:innocent:
And the bikes in the photo are a little closer to complete than they were...

Giz a hoon?

Ah yeah, I see the TZ in there now.

Bert

19th July 2016, 19:00

Giz a hoon?

Ah yeah, I see the TZ in there now.

Hoon on what one???

Your fairing set will be used well

?323223

mr bucketracer

19th July 2016, 20:53

Hoon on what one???

Your fairing set will be used well

?323223looking good

WilDun

21st July 2016, 08:50

Bert?
Not actually a frame question, but looking at the photo of the TZ - who made the pipes? I was just wondering how the first taper stage was made, ie the combination of a taper with a curve at the end.
Was it made by hydroforming (I can't actually see any welds). - or is it just the original factory made part?

mr bucketracer

21st July 2016, 09:43