Spring's here, time to die [Archive] - Page 2

GTRMAN

6th December 2012, 14:32

ABS in itself wont save you. The effects of heavy braking will still be there. The assumption that you will be safe on a bike when you (try to) pull up hard on the brakes ... with ABS to counteract the various directional and gravitational forces that you will be subject to .... is a little misguided ...

In short ... some skill level will still be required by the rider.

I agree. ABS in and of itself will not save you, nothing will. But in a situation where you are doing everything you can, surely a little help is not a bad thing. This in no way absolves the rider from knowing how to ride his motorcycle though.

Katman

6th December 2012, 14:34

I agree. ABS in and of itself will not save you, nothing will.

Nothing? :scratch:

FJRider

6th December 2012, 14:35

... not much can save idiots.

I once tried saving idiots ... but gave up when I couldn't find any practical use for them ... <_<

Edbear

6th December 2012, 14:35

Best thing anyone hoping to be a good road rider can do is some off road riding.

True for both two and four wheels! On road tyres, preferably. :niceone:

I agree. ABS in and of itself will not save you, nothing will. But in a situation where you are doing everything you can, surely a little help is not a bad thing. This in no way absolves the rider from knowing how to ride his motorcycle though.

Yup!

MrKiwi

6th December 2012, 14:38

It's a gimmick for the dumb masses.

It most certainly is not. ABS is not good for gravel running but on tarmac it does improve your stopping capability. People who say they can stop better and control the bike better under breaking than ABS can are, quite frankly, dreaming. The research is pretty clear.

GTRMAN

6th December 2012, 14:39

Nothing? :scratch:

No riding aid, with the exception of a star trek emergency transporter that beams you back to your couch in a nanosecond

Katman

6th December 2012, 14:40

It most certainly is not.

Is too.

So there.

jrandom

6th December 2012, 14:44

control the bike better under breaking

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

<img src="http://i46.tinypic.com/f4lg0k.jpg"/>

Crasherfromwayback

6th December 2012, 14:47

It most certainly is not. ABS is not good for gravel running but on tarmac it does improve your stopping capability. People who say they can stop better and control the bike better under breaking than ABS can are, quite frankly, dreaming. The research is pretty clear.

That doesn't change the fact that should you want to lock a wheel at will you can't. And think you'll find there are certainly select few that can stop harder in certain conditions without it.

FJRider

6th December 2012, 14:49

I agree. ABS in and of itself will not save you, nothing will. But in a situation where you are doing everything you can, surely a little help is not a bad thing. This in no way absolves the rider from knowing how to ride his motorcycle though.

Spend a bit of time on "Old School" bikes .. where the owners manual states a small prayer you should recite as you apply the brakes ... then ride one where the brakes will make you faceplant the tarmac if you use the same force.

Which is more dangerous ... ???

Help is one thing ... reliance on that help is another. Ability to use that help rather than dependance on it ...

As per usual ... familiarity with your own ability, and the capabilities of your bike is more important than having all the "good bits" that will (supposedly) make your life safer.

jrandom

6th December 2012, 14:49

Nothing? :scratch:

Yeah. We're doomed.

Regarding ABS, I think it's more useful in cars than on bikes, because in cars you're not controlling the brakes with a delicate squeeze of the fingertips - you're stomping on a pedal with your shoe. Less subtlety and feedback, easier to fuck up and lock the wheels unintentionally.

I've ridden a couple of bikes with ABS but never bothered to test it. *shrug* I probably wouldn't buy a bike with ABS anyhow, just because they all seem to be big heavy things and I don't really like me a big heavy bike.

Edbear

6th December 2012, 14:52

It most certainly is not. ABS is not good for gravel running but on tarmac it does improve your stopping capability. People who say they can stop better and control the bike better under breaking than ABS can are, quite frankly, dreaming. The research is pretty clear.

Yup! Even racers recognise the advantages of both traction control and ABS.

Crasherfromwayback

6th December 2012, 14:53

Regarding ABS, I think it's more useful in cars than on bikes, because in cars you're not controlling the brakes with a delicate squeeze of the fingertips - you're stomping on a pedal with your shoe. Less subtlety and feedback, easier to fuck up and lock the wheels unintentionally.

.

Agreed. I find it hard to make myself get it to kick in on the front of a bike anyway just to see what it's like.

jrandom

6th December 2012, 14:54

Yup! Even racers recognise the advantages of both traction control and ABS.

Traction control, yes, of course. Got any quotes you can link to from racers who like ABS, though?

FJRider

6th December 2012, 14:55

No riding aid, with the exception of a star trek emergency transporter that beams you back to your couch in a nanosecond

On my last visit to the Big Red Shed ... I tried to buy one ... but they were out of stock ... :mellow:

Crasherfromwayback

6th December 2012, 14:57

Traction control, yes, of course. ough?

And even then...some like it a lot less than others. Some knock it right back.

Katman

6th December 2012, 14:58

No riding aid, with the exception of a star trek emergency transporter that beams you back to your couch in a nanosecond

Is that like the reset button on a Playstation game?

Edbear

6th December 2012, 15:02

Traction control, yes, of course. Got any quotes you can link to from racers who like ABS, though?

http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2012/motorcycle-abs-skepticism-debunked

http://www.ridergroups.com/motorcycle-news/keith-code-motorcycle-technology-can-save-your-life/

A couple of good opinions. Of course some racers like to "back it in" or use a slide to adjust a corner angle, but over all it appears the technology is getting better all the time.

Losing the front end usually ends in decking it and can hurt so here is where it may be extra helpful.

jrandom

6th December 2012, 15:06

A couple of good opinions.

Neither are from a racer. One's from some guy who rides a Harley and writes shit on the internet (although I bet he's not as good-looking as me) and the other is Keith Code saying that bikes with TC and ABS cause people to fall off less in rider training school. Which makes sense.

So. Back to my question - got any quotes from racers who like ABS?

Str8 Jacket

6th December 2012, 15:13

Neither are from a racer. One's from some guy who rides a Harley and writes shit on the internet (although I bet he's not as good-looking as me) and the other is Keith Code saying that bikes with TC and ABS cause people to fall off less in rider training school. Which makes sense.

So. Back to my question - got any quotes from racers who like ABS?

Oh Dan :facepalm: just :facepalm:..... :thud:

Edbear

6th December 2012, 15:17

Oh Dan :facepalm: just :facepalm:..... :thud:

Yup... :weird:

Str8 Jacket

6th December 2012, 15:18

Yup... :weird:

He aint dumb, just a little "uninformed" in this case.

Maha

6th December 2012, 15:18

Oh Dan....

Been a long time since a woman has said that to him.

Edbear

6th December 2012, 15:20

He aint dumb, just a little "uninformed" in this case.

I guess. It does actually help to read before reviewing... :rolleyes:

jrandom

6th December 2012, 15:21

He aint dumb, just a little "uninformed" in this case.

Hmmm? What am I missing?

Inform me.

Edit: Ed originally said that 'racers prefer ABS'. I hope all y'all aren't facepalming and congratulating yourselves over my fallibility because you think I missed the fact that Mr Code said that their learner riders fall off less with ABS.

Edit edit: Yes, if you're doing the California Superbike School, you count as a learner rider. It's not meant as some sort of put-down. I'd love to do it myself some time.

jrandom

6th December 2012, 15:25

Been a long time since a woman has said that to him.

Shhh. Don't disturb me. I'm still reading that post over and over, imagining the voice in my mind.

FJRider

6th December 2012, 15:26

... So. Back to my question - got any quotes from racers who like ABS?

An old article ... but interesting reading ...

http://74.6.147.41/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=Motorcycle+Road+racer+comments+on+ABS&rd=r1&fr=yfp-t-501&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Motorcycle+Road+racer+comments+on+ABS&d=4534150557271060&mkt=en-NZ&setlang=en-NZ&w=c1dPJ8S8WJwN5LI_u05wra-ez-DzejtW&icp=1&.intl=nz&sig=EPn7RtNwNwQm6zHVFcZKEQ--

jrandom

6th December 2012, 15:29

I guess. It does actually help to read before reviewing... :rolleyes:

Helen seems to have stepped away from the keyboard - can you point out what I missed, Ed?

Srsly, I'm not sure what yous fullas are getting at here.

GTRMAN

6th December 2012, 15:36

Is that like the reset button on a Playstation game?

Hmmm... No.

Bassmatt

6th December 2012, 15:40

Helen seems to have stepped away from the keyboard - can you point out what I missed, Ed?

Srsly, I'm not sure what yous fullas are getting at here.

Keith Code - former motorcycle RACER? (wild stab in the dark)

Katman

6th December 2012, 15:41

Neither are from a racer.

Just another fine example of Ed's idea of 'research'.

jrandom

6th December 2012, 15:42

Keith Code - former motorcycle RACER? (wild stab in the dark)

Yes, but more particularly, that was Keith Code saying that his learner riders fall off less on bikes with ABS.

I don't equate that to "a racer preferring ABS".

Bassmatt

6th December 2012, 15:45

Yes, but more particularly, that was Keith Code saying that his learner riders fall off less on bikes with ABS.

I don't equate that to "a racer preferring ABS".

Fair point. Thats all I've got, cant be arsed reading the articles.

jrandom

6th December 2012, 15:47

Fair point. Thats all I've got, cant be arsed reading the articles.

I did in fact read them carefully all the way through.

I read fast.

*sigh*

It does get lonely sometimes, though. Being right all the time, but having no friends.

:(

Deano

6th December 2012, 15:59

Edit edit: Yes, if you're doing the California Superbike School, you count as a learner rider. It's not meant as some sort of put-down. I'd love to do it myself some time.

What do you define as a learner rider? Choppa #3 in NZSBK did CSBKS. I guess he was and possibly still is learning racecraft, but until you are close to WSBK/MotoGP Champ, is everyone still learning things?

When I did CSBKS (I'm definitely still learning, but a learner rider?), they told me Leon Camier was still actively taking advice from CSBKS - is he still a learner rider?

Not that this has anything to do with ABS. Just being pedantic LOL

jrandom

6th December 2012, 16:02

What do you define as a learner rider? Choppa #3 in NZSBK did CSBKS. I guess he was and possibly still is learning racecraft, but until you are close to WSBK/MotoGP Champ, is everyone still learning things?

Choppa's rise has been pretty stunning. How long ago was he going out in learner groups at trackdays? 5 years ago, if even that? Wish I had that sort of talent (and budget *cough*)

Not that this has anything to do with ABS. Just being pedantic LOL

No, no, I agree, good point. But still - I wasn't wanting to know whether ABS reduced the frequency of bins during rider training days, even if they were high-level rider training days.

I was asking Ed to back up his claim that racers preferred ABS.

Get Sloan on here saying he'd rather ride a bike with ABS and I'll consider that point made. But up until now we've only had red herrings.

Edbear

6th December 2012, 16:05

Fair point. Thats all I've got, cant be arsed reading the articles.

This is normal for KB, the other problem with some is they read with the express purpose of finding something to argue with. Been there, done that, can't be bothered with the idiots anymore.

Madness

6th December 2012, 16:06

Get Sloan on here saying he'd rather ride a bike with ABS and I'll consider that point made. But up until now we've only had red herrings.

What?, It's not mentioned in The Bible?

Mr. Peanut

6th December 2012, 16:07

Been a while since I posted here, what happened to the literacy? It's like trying to read alphabet soup.

FJRider

6th December 2012, 16:08

... the other is Keith Code saying that bikes with TC and ABS cause people to fall off less in rider training school. Which makes sense.

.... Fall off LESS ... ??? (I must try that)

Is there a system that STOPS you falling off .. ???

Edbear

6th December 2012, 16:09

.... Fall off LESS ... ??? (I must try that)

Is there a system that STOPS you falling off .. ???

Trainer wheels? :bleh:

Deano

6th December 2012, 16:09

Choppa's rise has been pretty stunning. How long ago was he going out in learner groups at trackdays? 5 years ago, if even that? Wish I had that sort of talent (and budget *cough*)

No, no, I agree, good point. But still - I wasn't wanting to know whether ABS reduced the frequency of bins during rider training days, even if they were high-level rider training days.

I was asking Ed to back up his claim that racers preferred ABS.

Get Sloan on here saying he'd rather ride a bike with ABS and I'll consider that point made. But up until now we've only had red herrings.

Yeah it was just the reference to learner riders using CSBKS that I was picking on. Choppa did CSBKS in 2011, as was Leon Camier I was told.

Maybe the new generations of racers will prefer ABS - much like the dumbing down of society, electronic gadgetry is making average racers (LOL - Dovizioso) keep up with the likes of Rossi and Stoner), well almost some of the time anyway. Machinery being equal etc

scumdog

6th December 2012, 16:19

Maybe the new generations of racers will prefer ABS - much like the dumbing down of society, electronic gadgetry is making average racers (LOL - Dovizioso) keep up with the likes of Rossi and Stoner), well almost some of the time anyway. Machinery being equal etc

Somebody probably said much the same sort of thing when disc-brakes first appeared on the track - and slipper cluthes...and....

Edbear

6th December 2012, 16:20

Yes, but more particularly, that was Keith Code saying that his learner riders fall off less on bikes with ABS.

I don't equate that to "a racer preferring ABS".

Would you like to prove you can read and quote me as to whether I said that?

jrandom

6th December 2012, 16:24

Would you like to prove you can read and quote me as to whether I said that?

Oh, yep, nah, you said "recognise the advantages of".

Fair call.

Edbear

6th December 2012, 16:27

Oh, yep, nah, you said "recognise the advantages of".

Fair call.

Thank you.

Deano

6th December 2012, 16:28

Somebody probably said much the same sort of thing when disc-brakes first appeared on the track - and slipper cluthes...and....

Just confirms my point. The gadgetry is allowing racers to go faster, with less emphasis on basic/raw ability/talent.

Someone who grows up with ABS may be less likely to lose the front in a low side. And rear traction control less likely to result in a high side.

Chuck the newbies on/in a race bike/car with no aids vs an old schooler who had no such aids and see who wins. Not really a fair contest though as the newbie will have youth on their side - potentially more courage and physically more able in most cases.

Mr. Peanut

6th December 2012, 16:34

I'd be too tempted to crank it right over and 'give it a go' :bleh:

Edbear

6th December 2012, 16:35

"Our testers consisted of a closed-circuit endurance racer, a long-distance endurance rider, a RR staffer, a touring rider with 70,000 miles of experience, a motorcycle mechanic with a 37,000 mile riding history, and a relative novice with less than one year and 4200 miles of riding under his belt. We gave our riders the following labels: Racer, Mileman, RRider, Tourer, Mech and Newguy. "

http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html

Not racing but relevant. I'll canvas a few riders this weekend and see how the local's feel about it.

Deano

6th December 2012, 16:38

I'd be too tempted to crank it right over and 'give it a go' :bleh:

That's the attitude!

Wonder if the ABS etc comes with a disclaimer......

Katman

6th December 2012, 16:51

Thank you.

Fuck off Ed.

You used the words "recognise the advantages of" in an obvious reference to a racing application.

Your Keith Code link doesn't fit that bill.

Mr. Peanut

6th December 2012, 16:59

I've sort of based my entire skill set around managing, preparing for, and handling the limits of traction. I'm not sure how I feel about ABS and traction control.

I use these limits as a sort of punctuation in my riding style, when I brake hard in an emergency situation, feeling the front start to lock is a perfect point for me to let off the brakes and crank the bike over. Feeling the back start to kick out, is when I start to adjust my body weight and throttle position.

Hard to explain, but I feel like interfering with these old processes is a recipe for trouble.

It's kind of like a power user trying to go from XP to windows 8, all the extra features to 'help' are just alien and land you in doo doo.

I can see this being useful for Cruisers and Tourers that have a lower center of gravity, a longer wheelbase, and an aging rider who may or may not have any appreciation of the concepts of physics :bleh:

jrandom

6th December 2012, 17:21

Cruisers and Tourers that have a lower center of gravity, a longer wheelbase, and an aging rider who may or may not have any appreciation of the concepts of physics :bleh:

Stop talking about me, cunt, I'm right here.

Mr. Peanut

6th December 2012, 17:40

Stop talking about me, cunt, I'm right here.

Scorpios actually handle pretty damned well, showed my friends on sprot bikes a clean set of heels.

Road kill

6th December 2012, 17:52

jrandom

6th December 2012, 17:56

Scorpios actually handle pretty damned well

I love you, man.

Mr. Peanut

6th December 2012, 18:01

Ah ha ha ha ha ha,,,fuck I needed that.

0 Friends
Road kill has not made any friends yet

Berries

6th December 2012, 18:08

So the NZTA says that on a motorcycle you're 23 times more likely to get pwned than a cager over the same distance.

23 times now, any advances on 23? Do I here 30? :laugh:
After reading the latest Australian research in to barrier treatment and motorbikes today I'll raise you to 34 -

Motorcyclists are vulnerable road users because they do not have the protective structural cage, or advanced restraints, which are commonplace in both passenger and heavy vehicles (Gabler 2007). A major part of the rider vulnerability stems from the riders’ bodies absorbing a significant part of the deceleration energy, thus resulting in severe injuries during high speed impact. Grzebieta et al. (2011) also state on the basis of police reports the main factors were speeding, alcohol and drugs. The main single factor was speeding or inappropriate speed. In this context, Jama et al. 2010 reported a US estimate that the fatality risk for motorcyclists was 34 times greater than for vehicle occupants, after adjusting for distance travelled.

FJRider

6th December 2012, 18:15

Scorpios actually handle pretty damned well, showed my friends on sprot bikes a clean set of heels.

Owning and riding a sprot bike doesn't make you a good rider. And your post will have more to do with the lack of ability of said sprot bike riders ... than the ability of the Scorpio ...

Mr. Peanut

6th December 2012, 18:20

Owning and riding a sprot bike doesn't make you a good rider. And your post will have more to do with the lack of ability of said sprot bike riders ... than the ability of the Scorpio ...

A Scorpio with good rubber handles really well. I'm sure they didn't have your god-like abilities, but one of them was a fairly successful F3 racer.

I'd be quite glad to stack it up against an FJ1200 on a tight road.

newbould

6th December 2012, 18:35

When did they start putting abs on scorps? Must go back to one.:msn-wink:

FJRider

6th December 2012, 18:56

When did they start putting abs on scorps? Must go back to one.:msn-wink:

They put them on FJ1200's ... :innocent:

FJRider

6th December 2012, 19:03

A Scorpio with good rubber handles really well. I'm sure they didn't have your god-like abilities, but one of them was a fairly successful F3 racer.

I'd be quite glad to stack it up against an FJ1200 on a tight road.

My abilities are only superhuman ... :laugh: .. I aspire to god-like ... :innocent:

And it's like trying to compare a mini with a mack. (both with successful history of being raced ... but in different classes)

Road kill

6th December 2012, 20:49

0 Friends
Road kill has not made any friends yet

I'm like that in the real world as well.

Trust no cunt never get burnt,,,notice the lack of smilies.

scumdog

6th December 2012, 20:52

I'm like that in the real world as well.

Trust no cunt never get burnt,,,notice the lack of smilies.

Great!
We'll get along just fine - I don't trust you either!

BoristheBiter

6th December 2012, 20:57

0 Friends
Road kill has not made any friends yet

I'm sorry, didn't realise I had logged into Facebook.

Mr. Peanut

6th December 2012, 21:01

Jesus, you're a bunch of whinging faggots.

It's been two years since I've used this site, I think it'll be another two years before I use it again. Time to go back to riding :tugger:

James Deuce

6th December 2012, 21:14

OOOOOOO, I hope I get to wheelie through YOUR crash site. I like that sort of thing.

sinfull

6th December 2012, 22:50

Time to die !

Berries

6th December 2012, 22:53

Time to die !
Nah, it is summer now. We are all ok until next year...........

sinfull

6th December 2012, 23:01

Ha ! That's the attitude !

pritch

7th December 2012, 09:05

That doesn't change the fact that should you want to lock a wheel at will you can't. And think you'll find there are certainly select few that can stop harder in certain conditions without it.

Even the "select few" require several practice attempts. In the real world there are no warm-ups, in a one-off panic stop nobody beats ABS.

I've never had ABS on any of my bikes, my current car is the first vehicle I've had with it, but if my next bike has it I'll be pleased.

Disco Dan

7th December 2012, 11:58

Woah this thread is a like a time machine back to "Kiwibiker site in 2006" ....continue, please.

Genestho

7th December 2012, 12:34

Woah this thread is a like a time machine back to "Kiwibiker site in 2006" ....continue, please.

Weren't you the guy that was outta here in '09? :scratch:

ellipsis

7th December 2012, 17:32

...iv'e just been talking to my granddaughter about Gallileo, HG Wells and other visionaries of their ilk...how their concepts were considered little more than foolish wanderings of deranged men at best...and trying to consider what my reactions to their stuff would have been if I was of their time...i'm sure i'd like ABS if i ever got to squeeze them...at the moment i'm very happy with these new fangled disc brake thingys...much better than the best drums i've ever had:mellow:

MrKiwi

7th December 2012, 21:57

onearmedbandit

7th December 2012, 23:37

On tarmac I don't believe that. Not even top class racers. Show me the evidence and I'll change my mind.

While they give the nod to ABS, there are some interesting results here.

http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedings/a-green-comparisonofstoppingdistance.pdf

Ender EnZed

8th December 2012, 00:05

- Skill (ability to control a machine, and ability to think about what's going on around you) is inversely proportionate to the chance of binning on the road.

- ... yeah, that's about it.

The above seems such a truism that I'm not sure what else there is to say, other than everyone calling me a cunt. Which should be old news, anyhow.

I'd suggest that "skill" needs to be broken down a bit further than that, or separated into at least two component parts with regards to "likelihood of bin".

1) Ability to control the bike: This is all that matters for the best lap time around a track.
2) Ability to not-be-a-fuckwit: This is an influencing factor in almost all bins after an afternoon's pootle around a carpark of skill #1's ability has been developed even slightly.

That's why old men crash less than young men.

There is of course plenty of variance to this rule but there aren't many people who crash more after 20-30 years riding or get faster after 20-30 years riding.

I've sort of based my entire skill set around managing, preparing for, and handling the limits of traction. I'm not sure how I feel about ABS and traction control.

I use these limits as a sort of punctuation in my riding style, when I brake hard in an emergency situation, feeling the front start to lock is a perfect point for me to let off the brakes and crank the bike over. Feeling the back start to kick out, is when I start to adjust my body weight and throttle position

You sound like you're talking about a track. Certainly, when you have your braking, letting off, and turning points clear in your mind then anything that interferes with that is interference. :sherlock:

I've done track riding on non-ABS bikes and I agree that not-locking-the-front is a long way down the list of skills to master. I've also done track driving on ABS-equipped cars and I agree that in terms of tracks times it's waste of time.

BUT, if it's a dark rainy night after a bottle of whiskey when I stumble onto the road with Valentino Rossi himself riding towards me on the latest and greatest of riding machinery, I'd still rather it have ABS than not. There is no level of human skill that can match electrickery doing the same job, except very occasionally.

Maha

8th December 2012, 06:04

Weren't you the guy that was outta here in '09? :scratch:

You're right, but like everyone says, most cant keep away....http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/111911-Thanks-for-all-the-fish

MrKiwi

8th December 2012, 07:43

While they give the nod to ABS, there are some interesting results here.

http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedings/a-green-comparisonofstoppingdistance.pdf

I've seen other research on this as well, I'll try and dig it out. The main thing for me (and I currently do not ride a bike fitted with ABS, although I wish I did) is that with or without ABS the rider still needs to understand how to control the bike and how to ride within the conditions of the road. What ABS does is to provide an incremental improvement in the ability of a rider to control the bike in emergency situations.

James Deuce

8th December 2012, 09:23

I've seen other research on this as well, I'll try and dig it out. The main thing for me (and I currently do not ride a bike fitted with ABS, although I wish I did) is that with or without ABS the rider still needs to understand how to control the bike and how to ride within the conditions of the road. What ABS does is to provide an incremental improvement in the ability of a rider to control the bike in emergency situations.

If they ever get to the point of activating their ABS. Few people use a large proportion of the potential braking energy available to them, even during the most ball-shriveling of potential incidents.

Fatjim

8th December 2012, 11:48

If they ever get to the point of activating their ABS. Few people use a large proportion of the potential braking energy available to them, even during the most ball-shriveling of potential incidents.

We'll my balls are quite shiveled from years of motocycling.

BTW, I have traction control on the Tuono, and I'm starting to think that having it set on a mid setting is helping with tyre wear. Of course, having as much power at the rear as possible is kinda the point of motorcycling, but the v4 Tuono, does seem to look after the tyres better that the V2.

Brian d marge

8th December 2012, 22:58

Berries

8th December 2012, 23:28

Ive had a few scares , the biggest one was when the wife said "she wanted to go riding with me
Suspension not up to much on those old things?

Brian d marge

9th December 2012, 12:43

Suspension not up to much on those old things?
She may be a bit old and sagging a bit but she's mine ,,,:-) the bike that is
PS ...stuff , another poor sod on a bike , this will catch the medias at tension I'm sure

Stephen

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 10:23

Even the "select few" require several practice attempts. In the real world there are no warm-ups, in a one-off panic stop nobody beats ABS.

.

On tarmac I don't believe that. Not even top class racers. Show me the evidence and I'll change my mind.

I appreciate that. That is not my issue with ABS. My issue with ABS (as I've mentioned many times before) is having the opportunity to lock a wheel when/if I want to taken away from me. I'm not talking about racers or racing here.

Example: I come over a blind crest doing 100kph. There is a combine harvester across both lanes 50m away. The laws of physics says ABS or not I need 75m to stop (this is obviously just an example). There is no room to go around said object.

I'd far rather grab a handful of front brake and put the thing down and part company with it than merrily ride right into the side of the object. It's amazing how quickly you stop on your arse.

As far as racing goes. ABS should be banned. It's simply another skill being taken away from the racer to level the playing feild. I honestly can't recall being over taken on the picks whilst racing. So why should I have one of my stronger points taken away from me?

BoristheBiter

10th December 2012, 10:55

I appreciate that. That is not my issue with ABS. My issue with ABS (as I've mentioned many times before) is having the opportunity to lock a wheel when/if I want to taken away from me. I'm not talking about racers or racing here.

Example: I come over a blind crest doing 100kph. There is a combine harvester across both lanes 50m away. The laws of physics says ABS or not I need 75m to stop (this is obviously just an example). There is no room to go around said object.

I'd far rather grab a handful of front brake and put the thing down and part company with it than merrily ride right into the side of the object. It's amazing how quickly you stop on your arse.

As far as racing goes. ABS should be banned. It's simply another skill being taken away from the racer to level the playing feild. I honestly can't recall being over taken on the picks whilst racing. So why should I have one of my stronger points taken away from me?

then slow down rossi :whistle:

But seriously you don't need to lock the wheel up to put it down, but i get what you mean as it does make it easier.
I just think it is one of those things you either like or not.

And yes all electronic aids should be removed from racing.

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 11:00

then slow down rossi :whistle:

But seriously you don't need to lock the wheel up to put it down, but i get what you mean as it does make it easier.
I just think it is one of those things you either like or not.

And yes all electronic aids should be removed from racing.

lol. I don't really do 'Rossi' on the streets anymore mate. Way too old/too many scars for that.

Maybe not...but it's the method I'd use when going in a straight line.

Absolutely. Fuck traction control, launch control and every other gay control.

Banditbandit

10th December 2012, 13:26

My Enfield's got abs , had it since the 50s ,,it can be dialled in just depends on how much I've drunk
And after all these years I haven't hit anything , ,
Ive had a few scares , the biggest one was when the wife said "she wanted to go riding with me

I must be doing something wrong

Stephen

Yeah .. You are doing it wrong - you ride an Enfield ... Of course she wants to go with you ... Try getting something with more than 100 horses ... then she'll stay at home .. My wife NEVER rides on my bike (her choice ...)

Usarka

10th December 2012, 13:30

I couldn't give two tosses of a nanny goats cock if people choose to ride ABS or not.

What would concern me is people learning to ride on ABS. Especially if they were to get a non-ABS bike sometime in the future.

baffa

10th December 2012, 14:08

I appreciate that. That is not my issue with ABS. My issue with ABS (as I've mentioned many times before) is having the opportunity to lock a wheel when/if I want to taken away from me. I'm not talking about racers or racing here.

Example: I come over a blind crest doing 100kph. There is a combine harvester across both lanes 50m away. The laws of physics says ABS or not I need 75m to stop (this is obviously just an example). There is no room to go around said object.

I'd far rather grab a handful of front brake and put the thing down and part company with it than merrily ride right into the side of the object. It's amazing how quickly you stop on your arse.

As far as racing goes. ABS should be banned. It's simply another skill being taken away from the racer to level the playing feild. I honestly can't recall being over taken on the picks whilst racing. So why should I have one of my stronger points taken away from me?

That is the stupidest logic. ABS or not, you will shave off speed a lot quicker on the bike, than sliding along the ground.
And if you have ABS what is to stop you dropping the bike anyway if you so wish?

Maha

10th December 2012, 14:19

How did motorcyclists get along before ABS was even thought of?

Drew

10th December 2012, 14:30

That is the stupidest logic. ABS or not, you will shave off speed a lot quicker on the bike, than sliding along the ground.
And if you have ABS what is to stop you dropping the bike anyway if you so wish?Since non ABS can stop faster than ABS, your logic is just as stupid as you think CFWB's is.

Ever tried to get off a fast moving, upright bike? It's not that easy, and a fuck load more likely to end badly for the rider than the more gentle approach of the bike sliding out from under. I have done both, so you're gonna struggle to argue with me on that score by the way.

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 14:35

That is the stupidest logic. ABS or not, you will shave off speed a lot quicker on the bike, than sliding along the ground.
And if you have ABS what is to stop you dropping the bike anyway if you so wish?

Hey that's cool. You can stay upright and slam into the object. I'll take my chances if I don't have the room to stop and bail every time. Bet my 80 odd kg's and largish surface area for the given weight stops quicker than a combined 400kg's and a small as contact patch. But you're the expert.

By the way...you actually ever tried bailing from a bike at highish speeds in a straight line? Bet you anything you like it'd take you three times longer than locking the front and low siding. Hurt a shitload more too. But hey...once again!!

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 14:46

That is the stupidest logic. ABS or not, you will shave off speed a lot quicker on the bike, than sliding along the ground.
And if you have ABS what is to stop you dropping the bike anyway if you so wish?

Also...could you tell me why GP racers (maybe they know fuck all) would rather part company with the bikes than stay with them into a wall? Maybe they also think they'll stop quicker on their arses?

Also...could you please tell me how at around 100kph in a straight line you'll put your bike down really quickly?

Drew

10th December 2012, 14:57

Also...could you tell me why GP racers (maybe they know fuck all) would rather part company with the bikes than stay with them into a wall? Maybe they also think they'll stop quicker on their arses?

Also...could you please tell me how at around 100kph in a straight line you'll put your bike down really quickly?I have a picture in mind. It is of a skinny bike salesman.

He is leant over a drum full of water, firing a 12 gauge shotgun at the fish therein.

Go easy on the daft ones Pete, they can't help it.

Banditbandit

10th December 2012, 15:25

Also...could you tell me why GP racers (maybe they know fuck all) would rather part company with the bikes than stay with them into a wall? Maybe they also think they'll stop quicker on their arses?

Also...could you please tell me how at around 100kph in a straight line you'll put your bike down really quickly?

Fuck putting the bike down ... just get off ... let go of the bars and push off with your feet ... DON'T put your hands down to try to stop the fall ...

(A choice between dying and staying with the beloved bike I will choose life - much as it would pain me to wreck a bike ...)

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 15:35

Fuck putting the bike down ... just get off ... let go of the bars and push off with your feet ... DON'T put your hands down to try to stop the fall ...

(A choice between dying and staying with the beloved bike I will choose life - much as it would pain me to wreck a bike ...)

lol. Brave cunt! Not my preferred way of parting company (and believe me when I say there ain't many ways I haven't done)...but each to their own! :Punk:

Banditbandit

10th December 2012, 15:53

lol. Brave cunt! Not my preferred way of parting company (and believe me when I say there ain't many ways I haven't done)...but each to their own! :Punk:

:rofl: Not that brave - I've never actually had to do it ... I think in the heat of the moment it would not happen that way ...

baffa

10th December 2012, 16:16

Haha.

Moody. Crasher, I'm not gonna pretend to know more about bikes than you, but I can gaurantee you can stop quicker on the bike than you can on your ass. Racers would drop their bikes because they dont have ABS, and they are pushing to the point where they come off the bike as a matter of course. You wouldnt see Rossie realising hes outbraked himself and throwing himself off the bike, he would run wide or straight off the track. Ive seen them do it.

If I was doing 100 kph and I came round a corner to see a turned over truck in front of me, Id rather hit it on the bike, both brakes locked, at 30kph, than slide along the ground and hit it doing double that.

baffa

10th December 2012, 16:21

Since non ABS can stop faster than ABS, your logic is just as stupid as you think CFWB's is.

Ever tried to get off a fast moving, upright bike? It's not that easy, and a fuck load more likely to end badly for the rider than the more gentle approach of the bike sliding out from under. I have done both, so you're gonna struggle to argue with me on that score by the way.

If you want to drop the bike, why would you lock the wheels and go down with the bike? I dont fancy sliding with the bike, so the argument for bikes without abs making dropping them easier doesnt make sense to me.

Your first sentance makes no sence to my frazzled brain either, if that helps.

Drew

10th December 2012, 16:31

If you want to drop the bike, why would you lock the wheels and go down with the bike? I dont fancy sliding with the bike, so the argument for bikes without abs making dropping them easier doesnt make sense to me.

Your first sentance makes no sence to my frazzled brain either, if that helps.Trust the voices of experience, getting off a bike is best done with the rear wheel locked up to pitch it sideways. Doing it 'on the fly' results in landing akwardly, on head/shoulder/hands/knees. Stepping the rear out lands bum first, sets up for easy pushing away the bike, and all general goodness comparitively.

ABS decreases total braking force. Does that compute?

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 16:31

. You wouldnt see Rossie realising hes outbraked himself and throwing himself off the bike, he would run wide or straight off the track.

If I was doing 100 kph and I came round a corner to see a turned over truck in front of me, Id rather hit it on the bike, both brakes locked, at 30kph, than slide along the ground and hit it doing double that.

You will when he's heading towards a wall and not enough distance to stop in. Trust me.

And again...each to their own. But here's how quickly a body can stop on the deck.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sYxU_lYBHpY?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

scumdog

10th December 2012, 16:36

And people say we need A.T.G.A.T.T.:rolleyes:

baffa

10th December 2012, 16:49

Wasnt actually arguing for or against ABS btw, I am kinda anti ABS, for reasons ive stated before, my issue was that the argument of abs making it difficult to drop the bike, simply because I disagree that dropping the bike is the best option.

Re Drew, I know it decreases total braking force, however at the limit it uses brakes more effectively than the layman.
Again Im happy to go without ABS, but each to his own.

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 16:54

, however at the limit it uses brakes more effectively than the layman.
.

Not even the layman. As has been proven time and time again...abs will stop you in a shorter space of time unless you're a braking God. Even then sometimes!

Drew

10th December 2012, 16:58

Not even the layman. As has been proven time and time again...abs will stop you in a shorter space of time unless you're a braking God. Even then sometimes!Really?

Seems fucked up to me, I'll have to test ABS versus non personally before I believe it, and I'm certainly no braking god.

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 17:03

Really?

Seems fucked up to me, I'll have to test ABS versus non personally before I believe it, and I'm certainly no braking god.

Yeah. And I used to think I was!:shifty:

bogan

10th December 2012, 17:05

You will when he's heading towards a wall and not enough distance to stop in. Trust me.

And again...each to their own. But here's how quickly a body can stop on the deck.

He was doing about 50k (if that) to my eye, and took about 20m to stop going uphil, even a harley should be able to haul up a bit quicker at that speed. And things tend to stop a lot quicker when they can plow in sideways, on tarmac that isn't the case.

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 17:10

He was doing about 50k (if that) to my eye, and took about 20m to stop going uphil, even a harley should be able to haul up a bit quicker at that speed. And things tend to stop a lot quicker when they can plow in sideways, on tarmac that isn't the case.

He was going at least 150 wannit e? Bet that's what he told his mates anyway. And I only put that there for a laff at him mate.

But again...each to their own! I'd still far rather scrub off as much speed as poss then ditch it before impact if I knew I wasn't going to stop in time!

bogan

10th December 2012, 17:20

He was going at least 150 wannit e? Bet that's what he told his mates anyway. And I only put that there for a laff at him mate.

But again...each to their own! I'd still far rather scrub off as much speed as poss then ditch it before impact if I knew I wasn't going to stop in time!

Yeh, laff achieved.

Well with the amount of time I've spent on mine, I'd probly want to slow her down and then jump in front to cushion the blow :weird:

It may be that the ditching theory is based around the non-linear (wrt distance) deceleration, on or off the bike in the last 5m you're going to drop a lot more speed than the preceding 5m, so it might look like people slow down quicker once they have slowed enough to bail out, but in fact they would have stopped even sooner had they stayed on.

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 17:22

Well with the amount of time I've spent on mine, I'd probly want to slow her down and then jump in front to cushion the blow :weird:

It may be that the ditching theory is based around the non-linear (wrt distance) deceleration, on or off the bike in the last 5m you're going to drop a lot more speed than the preceding 5m, so it might look like people slow down quicker once they have slowed enough to bail out, but in fact they would have stopped even sooner had they stayed on.

I can understand that mate!

Now this bit. Don't go getting all clever and show me the bloody true facts. I'm trying to win an argument FFS.

BoristheBiter

10th December 2012, 17:25

:rofl: Not that brave - I've never actually had to do it ... I think in the heat of the moment it would not happen that way ...

It is best preformed whilst flying through the air thinking "there is no way i am going to hit the landing on that ramp so I'll take my chances".

as demonstrated below.
http://www.floridaseries.com/pics/pic_of_week/rd13/08rd13_crash.jpg

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 17:45

Yeh, laff achieved.

.

Would you have parted company with this?

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/LsjJWHw7Dzo?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

bogan

10th December 2012, 18:00

Would you have parted company with this?

Well, ignoring the fact I would almost have certainly parted company well before that corner (flipping it on the start line being the more likely option) yes, and not just cos it looked really difficult to keep upright regardless of design. The best option there would have been to bin it in the gravel, as side down on grass or gravel offers more stopping power. But you're clutching at straws if thats going to win you an argument :bleh:

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 18:02

(flipping it on the start line being the more likely option)

But you're clutching at straws if thats going to win you an argument :bleh:

Nah...cause the bloody homo's have launch control. As gay as abs you know!

So? I'm allowed.

bogan

10th December 2012, 18:11

Nah...cause the bloody homo's have launch control. As gay as abs you know!

So? I'm allowed.

Pfffft, that would nor more stop me coming off than their traction control would, probably do about as much good as ABS on the road tbh, helpful but not womble-proof.

Then I'm but forced to agree with you and go remove all ABS electrickery from my vehicles, phew, that was quick :confused: And since nothing new has any class, ABS is unlikely to make it into my shed anytime soon.

MrKiwi

10th December 2012, 18:20

Would you have parted company with this?

Ummm, why would you compare this on a race track at high speed way above anything we can do legally on the road with a discussion about ABS on the road? Not comparing apples with apples in my view.

MrKiwi

10th December 2012, 18:22

]Since non ABS can stop faster than ABS,[/B] your logic is just as stupid as you think CFWB's is.

Ever tried to get off a fast moving, upright bike? It's not that easy, and a fuck load more likely to end badly for the rider than the more gentle approach of the bike sliding out from under. I have done both, so you're gonna struggle to argue with me on that score by the way.

non ABS stopping faster than ABS - not likely!

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 18:51

Ummm, why would you compare this on a race track at high speed way above anything we can do legally on the road with a discussion about ABS on the road? Not comparing apples with apples in my view.

Because it matters not a flying fuck where you are when you're about to die. And check the film again. Doubt he'd be doing anymore than 100kph when he went off track.

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 19:12

Ummm, why would you compare this on a race track at high speed way above anything we can do legally on the road with a discussion about ABS on the road? Not comparing apples with apples in my view.

And what about this one? Would you have ridden into the guy at 90% (torpedo style), kept it upright with your abs and upon impact with the bales flipped over and down to the railway lines below and fucked yourself up...or do as I did...and put it down to avoid a & b?

Fuck it...can't upload that type of film file....

MrKiwi

10th December 2012, 20:27

And what about this one? Would you have ridden into the guy at 90% (torpedo style), kept it upright with your abs and upon impact with the bales flipped over and down to the railway lines below and fucked yourself up...or do as I did...and put it down to avoid a & b?

Fuck it...can't upload that type of film file....

just because I would be on a bike with ABS doesn't mean I'm not prepared to drop it. You still can. You still gotta use your brain. It is the incremental improvement ABS brings. Trying to argue we are saying it is the saviour of stupidity is not going to work as I'm not saying that. You can't help stupid...

MrKiwi

10th December 2012, 20:28

Because it matters not a flying fuck where you are when you're about to die. And check the film again. Doubt he'd be doing anymore than 100kph when he went off track.

the road is not a race track so I would be riding differently!

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 20:30

Trying to argue we are saying it is the saviour of stupidity is not going to work as I'm not saying that. You can't help stupid...

There's no way I'd argue that.

the road is not a race track so I would be riding differently!

You're right. It's not. But that doesn't mean you're not faced with the same decisions now does it?

Ocean1

10th December 2012, 20:36

Would you have parted company with this?

There's a technique taught in German riding schools, when faced with an obsticle you're not going to avoid hitting.

It's called: JUMP.

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 20:39

There's a technique taught in German riding schools, when faced with an obsticle you're not going to avoid hitting.

It's called: JUMP.

There's no telling some though mate. Pity I couldn't upload my biff from Wangas as an example.

Ocean1

10th December 2012, 20:42

There's no telling some though mate. Pity I couldn't upload my biff from Wangas as an example.

When was that Pete?

And to be honest I'd still prefer to scrub off as much velocity as possible first, but it saved me a pair of broken legs once.

Crasherfromwayback

10th December 2012, 20:45

When was that Pete?

And to be honest I'd still prefer to scrub off as much velocity as possible first,

2005. Wasn't pretty. But the best outcome I'm sure.

Me too.

onearmedbandit

10th December 2012, 23:11

non ABS stopping faster than ABS - not likely!

You're taking the piss right?

p.dath

11th December 2012, 06:54

On tarmac I don't believe that. Not even top class racers. Show me the evidence and I'll change my mind.

If I was buying a new bike, I would buy a bike with ABS if offered.

However ABS is not going to deliver the best result every time. It is a rider aid. I will give you an example. I help organise something called NASS, which is a free learner skills course. I have enlisted the assstance of the local Police motorcycle highyway patrol, and they visit from time to time.

Last year when we were practising brake and escape, and had an imaginary "dead man" line, I think only two riders road over it - and one of them was one of the Police riders. Let me be the first to say the Police rider was an extremely skilled rider. It was not a skill issue. He was the most skiled rider in the whole group by a long way. I would back him 100%.

His comment at the time was that his tyres were cold, and his ABS had engaged (which it clearly did for those watching). The result is that the BMW was releasing the tyres a lot more than it needed to, and the bike took considerable longer to reduce it's speed than pretty much any other bike (which is why he overshot the dead man line). The Police riders use BMW's, so you can assume that the ABS was a "premium" system. He said the ABS is fine on warmer tyres, that it just didn't handle cold tyres very well.

ABS on motorbikes is not like ABS on cars. In a car all you have to know is to slam your foot down hard on the brake and it does everything else. ABS on motorcycles is really only safe to use on warm tyres and when you are upright and travelling in a straight line. And I still wouldn't just slam on the brake on an ABS motorcycle, I would still progressively brake.

So while I prefer ABS - you can't make a blanket statement and say that ABS is always better and will get you out of jail. It is a rider assistance technology to be used to help, and "assists" you if you get your braking wrong and lock a tyre up. A skilled rider who doesn't get the ABS to engage is probably going to be safer than the rider who gets a full ABS interactaction.

And yes I will agree that ABS should be able to pull up a bike in a shorter distance if it worked like the systems in cars. I'm not convinced that motorcycle ABS has reached this point yet due to the extra complexities of riding a motorcycle (but I do believe the point in time is close). But it is obvious that if it does reliabily take a tyre to the point of being just before constant slip that it should out perform a real rider.

Fatjim

11th December 2012, 08:03

Well, they'll be a time when every road bike will have ABS as standard, and you won't be able to remove it.

Then the decision will be whether you buy a bike that allows you to turn it off or not.

Banditbandit

11th December 2012, 08:33

If you want to drop the bike, why would you lock the wheels and go down with the bike? I dont fancy sliding with the bike, so the argument for bikes without abs making dropping them easier doesnt make sense to me.

Locking the wheels is the best move to start to drop ... and sliding with the bike is both more dangerous and less likely to stop you in time ... You let the bike go when you go down ..

Trust the voices of experience, getting off a bike is best done with the rear wheel locked up to pitch it sideways. Doing it 'on the fly' results in landing akwardly, on head/shoulder/hands/knees. Stepping the rear out lands bum first, sets up for easy pushing away the bike, and all general goodness comparitively.

Yes - my suggestion of just letting go the bars and pushing with your feet was a joke ... gauranteed to land you awkwardly and tumble you down the road rather than sliding.

ABS decreases total braking force. Does that compute?

No. I know it seems counter-intuative, but maximum braking is just before the wheels lock up ... not with the wheels locked up (by then you've lost some braking force ...) ABS, supposedly, helps to maintain the wheels at just before lock up ..

Not even the layman. As has been proven time and time again...abs will stop you in a shorter space of time unless you're a braking God. Even then sometimes!

Yes - because ABS maintains the wheels at just before lock up ..

Really?

Seems fucked up to me, I'll have to test ABS versus non personally before I believe it, and I'm certainly no braking god.

Yes - it does seem fucked up - but it is true ... it's just counter-intuative.

Well with the amount of time I've spent on mine, I'd probly want to slow her down and then jump in front to cushion the blow :weird:

I had a freind who did just that - wrapped himelf around he tank to save his paint job ... he's still alive ..

It may be that the ditching theory is based around the non-linear (wrt distance) deceleration, on or off the bike in the last 5m you're going to drop a lot more speed than the preceding 5m, so it might look like people slow down quicker once they have slowed enough to bail out, but in fact they would have stopped even sooner had they stayed on.

Hmm ... maybe ... I'd think it's more about old Newton's Laws of Motion i.e. Force = Mass x Acceleration ...

In this case the amount of force being applied to a human body by friction (big friction area)as it slides down the road, combined with the minimum mass of a human body means deceleration (negative acceleration) would be quite high.

The amount of force applied through the tyres of a motorcycle (small friction area) OR the friction of the bike sliding down the road, combined with the mass of the bike plus the rider would mean that the deceleration (negative aceleration) would be much higher ...

Physics say I'll take my chances sliding down the road ... (And in all my sliding accidents I've stopped way before the bike has ...)

the road is not a race track so I would be riding differently!

Yeah ... but that just means there are no run off areas, no flag marchaslls and no ambos .. so look after yourself out there - there's no-one else there to do it ..

Drew

11th December 2012, 09:13

ABS does not maintain braking force, at just before the point of type lock up.

Crasherfromwayback

11th December 2012, 09:17

ABS does not maintain braking force, at just before the point of type lock up.

At just before tyre/wheel lock up it does. Once locked up even every so slightly no...

Drew

11th December 2012, 09:47

The ABS system does not keep the braking force lower than lock up point. It releases the brakes after lock up occurs, and then pulses on and off to keep from locking up for any length of time.

Crasherfromwayback

11th December 2012, 09:50

ellipsis

11th December 2012, 09:50

the road is not a race track so I would be riding differently!

...I wish that that were true for a larger percentage of the road users in this country...

bogan

11th December 2012, 09:55

ABS does not maintain braking force, at just before the point of type lock up.

Don't confuse car ABS with bike ABS, as far as I'm aware bike ABS is a lot harder to do because that is exactly what they try and get it to do.

sinfull

11th December 2012, 09:56

The ABS system does not keep the braking force lower than lock up point. It releases the brakes after lock up occurs, and then pulses on and off to keep from locking up for any length of time.
I want to fit it to my harley hehehe

Will it save me pumping the lever to get them to work at all ?

Actually i think i'd like my brake lights to work also !

And a new front wheel (lots of rust in there now) oh oh oh and a mid glide F/end (the new bars make it look skinny)

Bring on Santa !!!!

nosebleed

11th December 2012, 11:06

... It was not a skill issue. He was the most skiled rider in the whole group by a long way. I would back him 100%.

His comment at the time was that his tyres were cold, and his ABS had engaged (which it clearly did for those watching). The result is that the BMW was releasing the tyres a lot more than it needed to, and the bike took considerable longer to reduce it's speed than pretty much any other bike (which is why he overshot the dead man line). The Police riders use BMW's, so you can assume that the ABS was a "premium" system. He said the ABS is fine on warmer tyres, that it just didn't handle cold tyres very well.
...

Actually it is a skill issue

I would expect to read about such a "failure" from a rider who only takes his Beemer out on sunny Sunday's, not from someone who rides this bike full-time during his working day.
He should know his bike well enough to know how it behaves when the tyres are cold, and judged his stopping distance accordingly.

In your story learner riders with little skill or road craft were able to make the judgment on their bikes and therefore demonstrated greater skill.

chasio

11th December 2012, 11:29

Assuming that rear wheel lock-ups are generally easier to save if accidental and are desirable in some circumstances... Would there be a case for bike ABS you could configure so that it only acts on the front wheel? I'd probably run that when communtering, for example.

I think I'd probably be willing to spring extra for ABS with 3 modes:

1) On & linked (may as well go the whole hog)
2) Front only
3) Off

And maybe (4) On independently - for those who don't want linked. Maybe not worth the effort.

But for now I'll just keep on modulating with my internal ECU...

puddytat

11th December 2012, 11:59

Of the people I now who have binned it on the road, they all freaked , stood the bike up,@ as soon as the front wheel hit the shit off piste (road), dropped it. Dont think that ABS would have helped when faced with grass much.
I think the reason why Nicky went into the wall was that he was trying to save Ducati another costly repair bill....

actungbaby

11th December 2012, 12:11

Anybody can be a riding god sitting at their computer.

yeah i say buddy rode my bike on open road other day and world diffrence to city riding

a moment hesitation when was corning at 100kph and like blimmey your got keep calm

just changed down accerated and was fine but freaked out i whould been over the centre line

at that speed things happen fast.

Banditbandit

11th December 2012, 13:48

yeah i say buddy rode my bike on open road other day ...

Gawd .. you're a trusting soul .. don'tcha know ...

Never lend out your bike or your woman .. they never come back the same ..

SMOKEU

11th December 2012, 14:43

Since non ABS can stop faster than ABS, your logic is just as stupid as you think CFWB's is.

Maybe on a race track, but I call bullshit on public roads on modern bikes with modern ABS. The state of the roads in NZ is generally not that good, with an often unpredictable surface and grip levels.

If a cager pulls out in front of you while you're doing 100kmh and the road is wet or there's gravel on the road, then you will not be able to stop as quickly without ABS. Being on a race track with a consistent surface where you know your braking points like the back of your hand is a lot different from a panic braking situation where you certainly won't be thinking clearly. There are many things that computers can do much better than humans.

Drew

11th December 2012, 18:22

Maybe on a race track, but I call bullshit on public roads on modern bikes with modern ABS. The state of the roads in NZ is generally not that good, with an often unpredictable surface and grip levels.

If a cager pulls out in front of you while you're doing 100kmh and the road is wet or there's gravel on the road, then you will not be able to stop as quickly without ABS. Being on a race track with a consistent surface where you know your braking points like the back of your hand is a lot different from a panic braking situation where you certainly won't be thinking clearly. There are many things that computers can do much better than humans.I've been told it's proventhat I'm wrong.

But the dribble you just spouted, is not even close to the reason.

madandy

11th December 2012, 19:23

FJRider

11th December 2012, 19:26

... is a lot different from a panic braking situation where you certainly won't be thinking clearly. There are many things that computers can do much better than humans.

"Panic Braking" is a term that describes the result of irrational decisions, made by irrational people, that believe they are in an irrational situation ... and believe the method/practice as normal and expected action.

Those such people have no business exceeding any posted speed limit ... and some may go as far as to say ... they shouldn't even be on the road.

Berries

11th December 2012, 22:23

When the road code states that we all must ride/drive at a speed that enables us to stop our vehicles within the clear length of road (visible) ahead and half that distance on a road with no centre line is it any wonder some think we do need ABS to save our sorry arses?

Every day, sometimes twice daily I pull put of a driveway that, to my right offers only 40-50m of visibility to oncoming divers. My truck n trailer is 20m long, between 18500kg - 45000kg and moves slowly out across oth lanes to make the turn, legally.

The vehiles with ABS always stop short but twice, cars have locked their front wheels and it is these buggers that crash...always them at fault.
The road has been realigned and widened to offer about 80m clear vision, but my fear is, once the surface is sealed the damn fools will drive faster!:laugh:
I have argued this before but who actually rides/drives at a speed that enables us to stop our vehicles within the clear length of visible road ahead? I would wager not one person. Here I am thinking blind crests more than anything, but also some of the sharper corners. And I bet you don't, either on your bike or in the truck. I pity the poor sod who comes over the crest with 50m visibility and sees a truck and trailer fully across the road. Clear length of visible road might mean traveling at 30km/h. Never seen it happen.

Brian d marge

12th December 2012, 02:15

I have argued this before but who actually rides/drives at a speed that enables us to stop our vehicles within the clear length of visible road ahead? I would wager not one person. Here I am thinking blind crests more than anything, but also some of the sharper corners. And I bet you don't, either on your bike or in the truck. I pity the poor sod who comes over the crest with 50m visibility and sees a truck and trailer fully across the road. Clear length of visible road might mean traveling at 30km/h. Never seen it happen.
Unless the two second rule has changed
You won't see me travelling faster than I can stop ( in the road available) OR I will have an escape route so that when I am day dreaming , it doesn't hurt
Stephen
Haven't needed abs ever , nor will I

Drew

12th December 2012, 05:39

Unless the two second rule has changed
You won't see me travelling faster than I can stop ( in the road available) OR I will have an escape route so that when I am day dreaming , it doesn't hurt
Stephen
Haven't needed abs ever , nor will IRead the other guys text again.

He is saying, coming to a blind crest pon the open road, with no suggested speed signs to say there's a corner, he bets you don't slow down so that no matter what appears at the top of that crest you can still stop.

Think about it, we don't. I know most of the main roads up and down the north island fairly well, I drive them more than most. So although I'm very seldom in danger of hitting a car or bike in front of me due to following distance any more, I don't slow down because of blind corners and crests.

Maha

12th December 2012, 06:13

Read the other guys text again.

He is saying, coming to a blind crest pon the open road, with no suggested speed signs to say there's a corner, he bets you don't slow down so that no matter what appears at the top of that crest you can still stop.

Think about it, we don't. I know most of the main roads up and down the north island fairly well, I drive them more than most. So although I'm very seldom in danger of hitting a car or bike in front of me due to following distance any more, I don't slow down because of blind corners and crests.

I was following some chap on a Triumph Crusier one fine day, the road was straight, but crested, yet, he slowed at the top of each crest which was really unnerving.

FJRider

12th December 2012, 06:42

I was following some chap on a Triumph Crusier one fine day, the road was straight, but crested, yet, he slowed at the top of each crest which was really unnerving.

So he didn't have blind faith that the road ahead was clear. Why should that be an issue for you .. ??

oneofsix

12th December 2012, 07:26

Crasherfromwayback

12th December 2012, 07:28

98tls

12th December 2012, 07:40

It's not an issue for me. But I sure as fuck wouldn't ride with anyone that does at every crest.

Same though i guess if you wanted to get pedantic it would be a safe way of doing things,very boring but.This threads had me looking back on my offs,not counting the many off road ones riding dirt bikes theres been 5,worst was up the summit road when a young fella resulting in a long stay in hospital,entirely my fault,actually they have all been my fault bar 1 where i came round a tight left hander to find a Hillman Hunter taking up all the road doing a u turn,into it then over it i went.I guess some could argue using the "cresting a hill" thing ie slow down for every corner but its not going to happen eh.

bogan

12th December 2012, 07:46

I have to agree with FJ unless there is more to this. Rule is you drive/ride at speed that you can stop within clear distance you can see, if he couldn't see clear road over the crest for his speed he should slow. I will admit the usual is not to so it can be unnerving when one does :facepalm:

Pretty sure I button off, but don't slow down so much, more of ten than not you don't need to. Coming over a crest you actually have more visibility the the road you can see. A car or truck will show up long before you see the road under it. You could still miss a log or something, but the chances of that being fatal are much less than a car or truck. Certainly corners I aim to go slow enough to stop in the visible distance.

Katman

12th December 2012, 07:47

Regardless of whether you conciously slow for blind crests or corners you should always be wondering whether you may have to stop suddenly over that crest or around that corner.

The very act of thinking it gives you a distinct advantage should the need arise.

Crasherfromwayback

12th December 2012, 08:32

Regardless of whether you conciously slow for blind crests or corners you should always be wondering whether you may have to stop suddenly over that crest or around that corner.

.

Fucking oath.

Ocean1

12th December 2012, 09:04

Pretty sure I button off, but don't slow down so much, more of ten than not you don't need to.

Worth noting that you've got significantly less braking ability at the crest of a rise. You can't turn as hard either, so you've got fewer escape options. Up to you, but you might want to review that policy, eh?

Maha

12th December 2012, 09:09

So he didn't have blind faith that the road ahead was clear. Why should that be an issue for you .. ??

I have to agree with FJ unless there is more to this. Rule is you drive/ride at speed that you can stop within clear distance you can see, if he couldn't see clear road over the crest for his speed he should slow. I will admit the usual is not to so it can be unnerving when one does :facepalm:

Do you two wear Tutus whilst out riding? :eek:
I used the word slowed where I should have used the word braked.
I was two up at the time, I am fairly cautious rider and even Anne was tapping me on the back to get passed him.
He struggled to maintain 100kph for the time I was behind him.

In summary, he was a nuisance.

oneofsix

12th December 2012, 09:09

Coming over a crest you actually have more visibility the the road you can see. A car or truck will show up long before you see the road under it.

I don't take "clear road" to mean you have to actually see the road surface. There are many corners you can see around but due to low grass not actually see the road surface. In those cases you balance the lack of traffic against the risk of poor surface conditions and adjust your speed accordingly.

bogan

12th December 2012, 09:12

Worth noting that you've got significantly less braking ability at the crest of a rise. You can't turn as hard either, so you've got fewer escape options. Up to you, but you might want to review that policy, eh?

Depends on the rise, not too many that are steep enough to make the bike go light around anymore; or maybe its that I go so slow to begin with I don't even need to do more than button off anyway :bleh:

caspernz

12th December 2012, 09:16

I was following some chap on a Triumph Crusier one fine day, the road was straight, but crested, yet, he slowed at the top of each crest which was really unnerving.

All good, it was Katman out for a test ride...:laugh:

Drew

12th December 2012, 09:27

I'm all for slowing on the crests. Makes for better wheelies!

oneofsix

12th December 2012, 09:39

I'm all for slowing on the crests. Makes for better wheelies!

Really :gob: and I would have thought slowing FOR the crest and accelerating off the crest would have provided the best wheelies. :innocent:

Crasherfromwayback

12th December 2012, 09:43

I'm all for slowing on the crests. Makes for better wheelies!

No need when Hayabusa mounted.

Banditbandit

12th December 2012, 10:44

I don't take "clear road" to mean you have to actually see the road surface. There are many corners you can see around but due to low grass not actually see the road surface. In those cases you balance the lack of traffic against the risk of poor surface conditions and adjust your speed accordingly.

Yes - exactly .. but Nek Minut five fucking sheep jump out from the long grass ... and I wipe out three of them (lucky I was in the Terrano and not on a bike!!!)

bogan

12th December 2012, 10:54

Really :gob: and I would have thought slowing FOR the crest and accelerating off the crest would have provided the best wheelies. :innocent:

Easier wheelies certainly, but to lift the front while pointing downhill might make for better ones :shifty:

Brian d marge

12th December 2012, 16:29

Read the other guys text again.

He is saying, coming to a blind crest pon the open road, with no suggested speed signs to say there's a corner, he bets you don't slow down so that no matter what appears at the top of that crest you can still stop.

Think about it, we don't. I know most of the main roads up and down the north island fairly well, I drive them more than most. So although I'm very seldom in danger of hitting a car or bike in front of me due to following distance any more, I don't slow down because of blind corners and crests.

no
my original post stands , if I cant see,,,I slow down, simple

there IS one place , which I've talked about before , where the road LOOKS like it is continuous , but actually is a dip and can hide a car

I thinks someone here did have an accident due to that

but my post still stands , and if you don't slow down , that's your look out

Stephen

Drew

12th December 2012, 16:34

no
my original post stands , if I cant see,,,I slow down, simple

there IS one place , which I've talked about before , where the road LOOKS like it is continuous , but actually is a dip and can hide a car

I thinks someone here did have an accident due to that

but my post still stands , and if you don't slow down , that's your look out

StephenThat's not what you said in your first post.

Brian d marge

12th December 2012, 16:57

That's not what you said in your first post.

yes it is

2 seconds means , if you cant stop within the road ahead , ( 2 seconds is a comfortable stopping difference ) then you decrease your speed

and no it doesnt mean hauling on the anchors over every crest ,

Stephen

Crasherfromwayback

12th December 2012, 17:00

yes it is

2 seconds means , if you cant stop within the road ahead , ( 2 seconds is a comfortable stopping difference ) then you decrease your speed

and no it doesnt mean hauling on the anchors over every crest ,

Stephen

I'm not going back to find old posts etc. But 2 secs is the rule of thumb for following others. Not a safe stopping distance.

Brian d marge

12th December 2012, 17:05

I'm not going back to find old posts etc. But 2 secs is the rule of thumb for following others. Not a safe stopping distance.

well It seems to work for me , ( ice and rain and mud excluded )

Stephen

AD345

12th December 2012, 17:07

I pity the poor sod who comes over the crest with 50m visibility and sees a truck and trailer fully across the road.

They died

Two out of the three that slammed into a milk tanker & trailer that was across the road as they came over a crest

Boom, boom, boom

be prepared

R-Soul

12th December 2012, 17:08

No. I know it seems counter-intuative, but maximum braking is just before the wheels lock up ... not with the wheels locked up (by then you've lost some braking force ...) ABS, supposedly, helps to maintain the wheels at just before lock up ..

Yes - because ABS maintains the wheels at just before lock up .. .

ABS detects when the wheels do lock up, and releases them again, and then brakes again in cycles again and again. In effect it pulses the brakes, but much faster than a human can, which has teh effect of almost maximum braking for most of the time. It is not as effective as a braking god, who theoretically can feeel exactly when the wheels are about to lock up, and holds braking steady there, without releasing and reapplying brakes.

Yes - it does seem fucked up - but it is true ... it's just counter-intuative.

On a locked up wheel there is more braking force acting on the brake pad and disc that causes the wheel to stop harder and lock up. But there is less actual force acting through friction on the contact patch that is causing the bike to stop, because dynamic or sliding friction of atyre on a road is less sticky than rolling or static friction of the same wheel on the road.

Maximum energy dissipation of the bikes speed comes when the friction has not progressed from (static) rolling friction to sliding (dynamic) friction, but it is just on the verge of doing so, and where the tyre is deforming to its max and just starting to break chemical bonds in teh tyre ( and it is at its hottest and stickiest).

Hmm ... maybe ... I'd think it's more about old Newton's Laws of Motion i.e. Force = Mass x Acceleration ...

In this case the amount of force being applied to a human body by friction (big friction area)as it slides down the road, combined with the minimum mass of a human body means deceleration (negative acceleration) would be quite high.

The amount of force applied through the tyres of a motorcycle (small friction area) OR the friction of the bike sliding down the road, combined with the mass of the bike plus the rider would mean that the deceleration (negative aceleration) would be much higher ...

Physics say I'll take my chances sliding down the road ... (And in all my sliding accidents I've stopped way before the bike has ...)

The friction factor of tyres on the road is far higher than leather/textiles or steel on the same road. Tyres are after by design meant to provide teh maximum friction that they can.
While theoretically diching the bike would reduce the mass, and require less braking force, there would be a problem applying whatever braking force you have to the road while sliding on your ass. You would also have a lot less control over what happens to you. From speed, staying on the bike is a no brainer.

R-Soul

12th December 2012, 17:14

Don't confuse car ABS with bike ABS, as far as I'm aware bike ABS is a lot harder to do because that is exactly what they try and get it to do.

The same principles apply - they detect when one wheel (front) is rotating at a different speed to the other, and releases it fractionally when this ids detcted. BUT it is a lot more difficult on bikes, as they need to make allowance for normal differences in wheel rotation (which can be a good 30% more), or if its wheelying. So throttle position must be taken into account, and/or gravity sensors to detect wheelies.

R-Soul

12th December 2012, 17:28

Would you have parted company with this?

This is different because tyres on grass aint gonna do much.

bogan

12th December 2012, 17:29

The same principles apply - they detect when one wheel (front) is rotating at a different speed to the other, and releases it fractionally when this ids detcted. BUT it is a lot more difficult on bikes, as they need to make allowance for normal differences in wheel rotation (which can be a good 30% more), or if its wheelying. So throttle position must be taken into account, and/or gravity sensors to detect wheelies.

Normal differences of 30%? Has Drew been giving you riding lessons? I'd want ABS to come in at around 10% slip, in the 0-10% slip range is where max grip is found iirc. If it is pulsed (and I'd much prefer it to be a proportional control instead), the frequency should be high enough not to unsettle the suspension, and ideally high enough to barely be felt at all.
Wheelies are kind of a non-issue, not like you'll be counting on much stopping ability from the front during a wheelie.

Crasherfromwayback

12th December 2012, 17:38

This is different because tyres on grass aint gonna do much.

Yeah I realize that. Had a bit of experience with various types of tyres on diff surfaces. But that wasn't the question.

Ocean1

12th December 2012, 17:39

If it is pulsed (and I'd much prefer it to be a proportional control instead), the frequency should be high enough not to unsettle the suspension, and ideally high enough to barely be felt at all.

I understand that pulsing the brake actually reduces the stopping distance compared to constantly maintaining a just-pre-lockup state.

bogan

12th December 2012, 17:41

I understand that pulsing the brake actually reduces the stopping distance compared to constantly maintaining a just-pre-lockup state.

Is that due to the practicality of a just-pre-lockup state being at a level of grip lower than what is ideal, or is there a different reason?

Brian d marge

12th December 2012, 17:44

I understand that pulsing the brake actually reduces the stopping distance compared to constantly maintaining a just-pre-lockup state.

no grip when locked up , more grip when rolling

Something like that

Stephen

FJRider

12th December 2012, 17:51

In summary, he was a nuisance.

Probably pissed off with the biker (HE believed was) following him too closely ... perhaps you should have overtaken him on (OR BEFORE) one of those crests .... (OR ... BACK OFF a bit)

And scared YOUR impatience might kill HIM ... It is the responsibility of the overtaking vehicle to overtake safely. It wasn't safe to do so ... otherwise you WOULD have ... right .. ???

Maha

12th December 2012, 18:10

Probably pissed off with the biker (HE believed was) following him too closely ... perhaps you should have overtaken him on (OR BEFORE) one of those crests .... (OR ... BACK OFF a bit)

And scared YOUR impatience might kill HIM ... It is the responsibility of the overtaking vehicle to overtake safely. It wasn't safe to do so ... otherwise you WOULD have ... right .. ???

Not doing to well at the guessing game today Trev?....:shifty:
If this was a hypothetical situation, you may have a point (or two) but alas, it is not.
I am quite happy to sit behind someone that rides as I do, and Mr Cruiser was going fine prior.........until the dreaded crests of which we speak...da da daaaaaaaaaaa!
Thats when he and I had different ideas about what is comfortable and what is not.
Anyone who knows my riding will attest that it is not agressive in any way.

FJRider

12th December 2012, 18:26

It's not an issue for me. But I sure as fuck wouldn't ride with anyone that does at every crest.

Nor would it bother me. But not all riders have your ability and confidence (no I'm not taking the piss). If said rider was just getting back on the road after a serious off ... the reason for braking for each crest would be understandable.

But I guess nobody bothered to take the trouble/time ... to ask what his (her ???) issue was. We are ALL busy people ... eh .. !!!

Ocean1

13th December 2012, 07:07

Is that due to the practicality of a just-pre-lockup state being at a level of grip lower than what is ideal, or is there a different reason?

If you graph time/braking force up to where traction starts to drop you see traction spike just before lock-up, as already discussed. What's not obvious is that the steady braking force state that produces optimal STEADY traction is a fair bit lower than that spike. So ABS control strategy is to ramp up braking force to just pre-lockup, (but harder than the above steady pre-lockup force) then ease it and ramp it up again. I've seen tests that demonstrate that even manually pulsing in and out of that time/braking force spike produces better results, and an ABS PLC with a scan rate of a couple hundred hertz should make even better use of time in that spike.

R-Soul

13th December 2012, 11:47

If you graph time/braking force up to where traction starts to drop you see traction spike just before lock-up, as already discussed. What's not obvious is that the steady braking force state that produces optimal STEADY traction is a fair bit lower than that spike. So ABS control strategy is to ramp up braking force to just pre-lockup, (but harder than the above steady pre-lockup force) then ease it and ramp it up again. I've seen tests that demonstrate that even manually pulsing in and out of that time/braking force spike produces better results, and an ABS PLC with a scan rate of a couple hundred hertz should make even better use of time in that spike.

ABS strategy is to brake hard enough to lock up, detect lock up, release, and re brake hard in an effort to make average braking force higher than manually braking hard until lockup and relying on the rider having the presence of mind to pulse it manually and fast enough. There is no way for the system to detect "just pre lock up". What are you going use to sense that? Either there is wheel speed difference (i.e. locked up) or there is not.

According to my reckoning, this is why experienced racers can brake harder without ABS on track- they manage to keep the average braking force slightly higher by keeping the wheel on the edge of starting to slip by "feel" or experience - something sensors cannot do, at the point where the wheel is actually laying rubber down on teh road, but is still turning (so its not completely dynamic friction yet).

R-Soul

13th December 2012, 11:52

Normal differences of 30%? Has Drew been giving you riding lessons? I'd want ABS to come in at around 10% slip, in the 0-10% slip range is where max grip is found iirc. If it is pulsed (and I'd much prefer it to be a proportional control instead), the frequency should be high enough not to unsettle the suspension, and ideally high enough to barely be felt at all.
Wheelies are kind of a non-issue, not like you'll be counting on much stopping ability from the front during a wheelie.

In one of the last few Kiwirider magazines, the Japanese engineer for the ZX 10 (I think) was talking about how they put together their traction control and ABs systems, and I seem to recall a quote by him that normal speed difference (ie under normal acceleration and riding) between the front and back wheel were already in the order of 15% or higher. I recall this because I was quite surprised at the numbers. I used 30 % as a bit of a thumb suck, allowing for extreme acceleration, and possibly a buffer range before the system makes a final analysis of "lock up".

bogan

13th December 2012, 11:57

ABS strategy is to brake hard enough to lock up, detect lock up, release, and re brake hard in an effort to make average braking force higher than manually braking hard until lockup and relying on the rider having the presence of mind to pulse it manually and fast enough. There is no way for the system to detect "just pre lock up". What are you going use to sense that? Either there is wheel speed difference (i.e. locked up) or there is not.

As per my previous statement (#443), the max grip can be found at a small percentage slip, wheel speed sensors can detect small amounts of slip. A wheel will take time to lock up once the grip force is overcome, with good a enough ABS package, this can be detected and the lock up prevented.

In one of the last few Kiwirider magazines, the Japanese engineer for the ZX 10 (I think) was talking about how they put together their traction control and ABs systems, and I seem to recall a quote by him that normal speed difference (ie under normal acceleration and riding) between the front and back wheel were already in the order of 15% or higher. I recall this because I was quite surprised at the numbers. I used 30 % as a bit of a thumb suck, allowing for extreme acceleration, and possibly a buffer range before the system makes a final analysis of "lock up".

Sounds like something was lost in translation there. High performance ABS can't just rely on lockup detection, slip will come into it as well.

R-Soul

13th December 2012, 12:09

no grip when locked up , more grip when rolling

Something like that

Stephen

Yes that is the dofference between static and dynamic friction.

The friction factor changes between the two. In mechanical engineering we learnt that if you have a block of material stitting stationary on a floor, and you start pulling it, then you will need a certain amount of force (F1) to start moving it. This force is equal to the static friction factor (because it is at rest) multiplied by its weight. Once it starts moving, then you will need a force to keep it moving at a constant speed (so no additional forces from acceleration then). The force (F2)required to keep it moving at a constant speed will be equal to the dynamic friction factor multiplied by its weight. F2 will always be smaller than F1. If I remember correctly (and this changes form material to material) F1 is typically in the order of 1.2 times F2 (although it hs been twenty years).

Not sure why this is. Perhaps at rest there are small intermolecular bonds that form between atoms, that dont have time to form at speed?
When a tyre is rolling, the outside of that tyre is at rest relative to the road where it touches that road at the contact patch. So static friction applies. When the tyre locks from hard braking and starts sliding, then dynamic friction applies, reducing traction (the friction factor as the weight remains the same) of the tyre on the road, and hence braking force on the bike. Releasing the brakes will allow the periphery of the tyre to start rolling again, re-establishing static friction.

Ocean1

13th December 2012, 12:36

ABS strategy is to brake hard enough to lock up, detect lock up, release, and re brake hard in an effort to make average braking force higher than manually braking hard until lockup and relying on the rider having the presence of mind to pulse it manually and fast enough. There is no way for the system to detect "just pre lock up". What are you going use to sense that? Either there is wheel speed difference (i.e. locked up) or there is not.

Yes, I just said that. The fact that it's a viable control strategy doesn't mean it's not very effective.

According to my reckoning, this is why experienced racers can brake harder without ABS on track- they manage to keep the average braking force slightly higher by keeping the wheel on the edge of starting to slip by "feel" or experience - something sensors cannot do, at the point where the wheel is actually laying rubber down on teh road, but is still turning (so its not completely dynamic friction yet).

You might have been right a few years ago, but more recent results I've seen show new generations of ABS are both more effective than every unassisted rider tested and more effective than steady-state remote test rigs that maintain the wheel on the edge of starting to slip better than riders can. I've heard of a car version that actually modulates the pulse frequency depending on speed, to make best use of that peak in traction. Bike ABS is now detecting rear wheel lift and reducing front braking force to keep it down and weighted to the level that produces best combined brake force ratios.

Coefficients of friction. Slippery fuckers.

R-Soul

13th December 2012, 13:11

As per my previous statement (#443), the max grip can be found at a small percentage slip, wheel speed sensors can detect small amounts of slip. A wheel will take time to lock up once the grip force is overcome, with good a enough ABS package, this can be detected and the lock up prevented.

Slip is measured by detecting the difference, between the wheels (i.e. of one wheel relative to the other), of speed at the periphery of the wheels. The point is that there is already, during normal riding, significant difference in speed. This could be because of the driven wheel slipping under acceleration, the one wheel following a slightly longer radius around a corner, or just wheel wear, where one wheel wears faster than the other, which could make the system, which has been calibrated at a particular radius of the wheels, think there is more slip. Where actual slip due to lock up of one wheel comes in is really a matter of testing and where the engineeers set the threshold. So they say "given all the other things that could be occurring, normal slip could mean a difference in speed between teh wheels of up to X under normal reasonable conditions. We add in a buffer of safety (as we dont want ABs going off willy nilly), and therefore we set the absolute limit of where we think it is conclusive that there is lockup at Y% difference". Each manufacturer probably has different threshold settings according to what their own tests show.

High performance ABS just tries to set the threshold more accurately. And others, like Honda's C-ABS, have a few more add-ons.

Sounds like something was lost in translation there. High performance ABS can't just rely on lockup detection, slip will come into it as well.

Same thing. At least - both lockup and slip are measured by teh same thing - relative difference in wheel speed.

Banditbandit

13th December 2012, 13:24

This thread has ...

http://cdn.motinetwork.net/motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/1103/professor-shepherd-dog-demotivational-posters-1301205682.jpg

Turn off the computers - get the bikes out of the shed and just ride them ..

bogan

13th December 2012, 13:29

Slip is measured by detecting the difference, between the wheels (i.e. of one wheel relative to the other), of speed at the periphery of the wheels. The point is that there is already, during normal riding, significant difference in speed. This could be because of the driven wheel slipping under acceleration, the one wheel following a slightly longer radius around a corner, or just wheel wear, where one wheel wears faster than the other, which could make the system, which has been calibrated at a particular radius of the wheels, think there is more slip. Where actual slip due to lock up of one wheel comes in is really a matter of testing and where the engineeers set the threshold. So they say "given all the other things that could be occurring, normal slip could mean a difference in speed between teh wheels of up to X under normal reasonable conditions. We add in a buffer of safety (as we dont want ABs going off willy nilly), and therefore we set the absolute limit of where we think it is conclusive that there is lockup at Y% difference". Each manufacturer probably has different threshold settings according to what their own tests show.

High performance ABS just tries to set the threshold more accurately. And others, like Honda's C-ABS, have a few more add-ons.

Modern microcontrollers can do a lot with memory and modelling, the obvious options are; learning the slip ratios during normal riding, learning the slip ratios and adjusting accordingly during a lock up. The later is probably the way to go, you might have a very large slip to begin with, then pulse around the slip value giving the most grip.
A "buffer of safety" is perhaps a misnomer, as when ABS activates the safest option is to stop the bike as quick as possible, adding extra slip to make the slip easier to detect is more of a safety compromise.

Same thing. At least - both lockup and slip are measured by teh same thing - relative difference in wheel speed.

Lockup is binary, either its locked up, or its rotating, slip is detected across a continuous scale. These are most definitely not the same thing.

imdying

13th December 2012, 14:02

The Honda C-ABS is quite cunning, and does away with using the pressure generated at the master cylinder, and thus does away with the quick on/off/on/off you get with older systems, which is felt as a shudder by the rider. It's actually a brake by wire system, and as a result it uses a motor driven high pressure pump to supply the calipers, and that allows them to modulate the pump to vary the pressure. It used to be thought that on/off/on/off was a good thing... and it was for the level of tech/development, but then, as Bogan explains, tech moved on (primarily the manufacture of low cost high speed micro controllers) and this has enabled them to surpass that by actually remaining more in control of the brake pressures, and thus it lets them live on the ragged edge of the wheel speed/split/lockup equation.

There are some who expect that similar attributes will be applied to the EFI systems at some stage, allowing even finer granularity of the fuel injectors (and thus doing away with horrible multi-injector per cylinder setups), saving more money and decreasing emissions and fuel consumption. Things like this come very slowly though... I expect Honda's introduction of a brake by wire system went through pretty rigorous testing, and even then they had some problems which forced some recalls. As far as fuel metering goes, legislation has a lot to be thanked for the current crop of smoothly fueling EFI bikes (although on the other hand, it was also responsible for the mid 90s injection which was just a little premature for the tech on bikes).

MrKiwi

13th December 2012, 14:05

According to my reckoning, this is why experienced racers can brake harder without ABS on track- they manage to keep the average braking force slightly higher by keeping the wheel on the edge of starting to slip by "feel" or experience - something sensors cannot do, at the point where the wheel is actually laying rubber down on teh road, but is still turning (so its not completely dynamic friction yet).

Most of the riding public are not experienced racers (and I doubt even experienced racers can do what you claim), so when you need to brake hard and keep rolling ABS helps. It's not the saviour and can't counter for stupid, but it is something for riding on tarmac that I think riders should choose to have, in my opinion.

Crasherfromwayback

13th December 2012, 14:25

imdying

13th December 2012, 14:25

As the tech matures, that claim will go by the by. They will deliver, inevitably, greater more consistent performance than the best late brakers in the world can manage, and they'll do it day in day out with minimal maintenance. Give a racer so much as a crook tummy and you'll degrade their performance after 25 laps without a doubt... the computer will however march on tirelessly. What is needed is better quality data (sensors), the ability to analyse that data in more complicated ways (ECUs and their algorithms), and most importantly a financial or legislative motive. Good ABS systems are now at a point where they will suffice for everybody on the road, and it will not be long before the same applies to track riding.

imdying

13th December 2012, 14:29

That's the problem though. YOU think we should choose to have. I CHOOSE not to thanks. But people like you...will end up having our CHOICES taken away from us.There will (probably quickly) come a point where it is moot... the system will provide unfettered access to the entire range of performance offered by the braking system, only activating when it really needs to (because they are always a little premature at the moment, and do not have the adjustability that you get with traction control systems).

Crasherfromwayback

13th December 2012, 14:32

There will (probably quickly) come a point where it is moot... the system will provide unfettered access to the entire range of performance offered by the braking system, only activating when it really needs to (because they are always a little premature at the moment, and do not have the adjustability that you get with traction control systems).

As long as I always have the option of locking a wheel or wheels up I don't give a shit what the future brings. I don't do fluro vests either.

R-Soul

13th December 2012, 14:40

Modern microcontrollers can do a lot with memory and modelling, the obvious options are; learning the slip ratios during normal riding, learning the slip ratios and adjusting accordingly during a lock up. The later is probably the way to go, you might have a very large slip to begin with, then pulse around the slip value giving the most grip.
A "buffer of safety" is perhaps a misnomer, as when ABS activates the safest option is to stop the bike as quick as possible, adding extra slip to make the slip easier to detect is more of a safety compromise.

Maybe more a"buffer of useability" than a buffer of safety, although it would probably not be safe to have the ABs going off when not needed.

imdying

13th December 2012, 14:41

As long as I always have the option of locking a wheel or wheels up I don't give a shit what the future brings. I don't do fluro vests either.At 250km/hr?

/edit: Not a loaded question either Pete!

R-Soul

13th December 2012, 14:46

Most of the riding public are not experienced racers (and I doubt even experienced racers can do what you claim), so when you need to brake hard and keep rolling ABS helps. It's not the saviour and can't counter for stupid, but it is something for riding on tarmac that I think riders should choose to have, in my opinion.

I am not claiming this - this is what I have heard experienced track racers claim on the grapevine. I do not profess to be able to outbrake ABS myself. And even experienced riding gods can end up freezing in a surprise life threatening situation where they forget to pulse brakes or just lock brakes up without thinking further. So I am all for having ABS available on all bikes - at least for road riding.

Brian d marge

13th December 2012, 14:46

Royal Enfield had all of this years ago

brake by wire check

pulsing brakes , on off on off check ( probably oval drum again )

controlled lever pressure , check ( you could have the lever back to the bars and it wouldnt make a difference)

Fuzzy logic , check , fuzzier the more I drank

Mehhh,,,, modern tech has a lot of catching up to do

Stephen

Crasherfromwayback

13th December 2012, 14:54

At 250km/hr?

/edit: Not a loaded question either Pete!

Now days if I was to be doing 250kph I'd be on a race track. Not that I do much of that anymore. Too fat for my leathers now. But yeah...I'd still want the option.

imdying

13th December 2012, 14:57

Now days if I was to be doing 250kph I'd be on a race track. Not that I do much of that anymore. Too fat for my leathers now. But yeah...I'd still want the option.What advantage would you get from locking up the front at 250km/hr?

/edit: Of course, on the track

Drew

13th December 2012, 15:03

Fuck this thread is boring now.

It's summer, so most of us should already be dead I think.

Maha

13th December 2012, 15:14

Let's get out there, folks. Those statistics aren't going to write themselves.

Now, I don't know about all y'all, but the solar panel on top of my Shoei that's connected directly to my testicles is just going wild. Time to wrap those testicles around the throttle and show the nearest reinforced concrete power pole or oncoming station wagon who's boss.

(This seasonal community safety message has been brought to you by Friends of Katman, Inc, a not-for-profit organisation dedicated to saving lives as offensively as possible.)

This should be good!

Crasherfromwayback

13th December 2012, 15:14

What advantage would you get from locking up the front at 250km/hr?

/edit: Of course, on the track

Here we go again

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Fk1ceWinU-E?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

jrandom

13th December 2012, 15:15

It's summer, so most of us should already be dead I think.

Yeah, I died during October.

(I got better.)

BoristheBiter

13th December 2012, 15:23

At 250km/hr?

/edit: Not a loaded question either Pete!

Have you seen what happens to fluro at 250kph? not a pretty sight.

Crasherfromwayback

13th December 2012, 15:34

Have you seen what happens to fluro at 250kph? not a pretty sight.

lol. Only the novices have to wear fluro vests...and they shouldn't be going that fast!

onearmedbandit

13th December 2012, 16:51

lol. Only the novices have to wear fluro vests...and they shouldn't be going that fast!

Effing novices are dangerous. And I can tell you at over 250km/h fluro's unzip themselves.

BoristheBiter

13th December 2012, 17:20

Effing novices are dangerous. And I can tell you at over 250km/h fluro's unzip themselves.

I'm sure here is someone here using that picture as their avatar.:whistle:

Coldrider

13th December 2012, 17:50

hi viz and yellow helmet harley rider around these parts, though it is unlikely the vest will blow open, unless the domes vibrate off.

Mom

13th December 2012, 17:56

You are safe as with fluro on :dodge:

I saw a bloke on a black bike, with black gear on, apart from the fluro helmet he was wearing :scratch: :killingme

Crasherfromwayback

13th December 2012, 17:58

Effing novices are dangerous. And I can tell you at over 250km/h fluro's unzip themselves.

Nothing novice 'bout you Mofo.

madandy

13th December 2012, 18:20

I have argued this before but who actually rides/drives at a speed that enables us to stop our vehicles within the clear length of visible road ahead? I would wager not one person. Here I am thinking blind crests more than anything, but also some of the sharper corners. And I bet you don't, either on your bike or in the truck. I pity the poor sod who comes over the crest with 50m visibility and sees a truck and trailer fully across the road. Clear length of visible road might mean traveling at 30km/h. Never seen it happen.

I do in fact, when in the truck! as a blind crest usally occurs after a steepish climb and we all know how trucks lose speed on climbs. On my regular run I'm aware of the blind spots and do drive accordingly.

My point was more that, in the case of most cars which can come to a complete halt from 100kmh in less than 40m the ones without ABS were locking up and losing control at a speed/situation/ distance they would be able to stop in had their vehicles been supplied with modern ABS.

onearmedbandit

13th December 2012, 19:07

I'm sure here is someone here using that picture as their avatar.:whistle:

Whoops! What a whore.

MrKiwi

13th December 2012, 20:13

That's the problem though. YOU think we should choose to have. I CHOOSE not to thanks. But people like you...will end up having our CHOICES taken away from us.

You go on believing that...

MrKiwi

13th December 2012, 20:15

I am not claiming this - this is what I have heard experienced track racers claim on the grapevine. I do not profess to be able to outbrake ABS myself. And even experienced riding gods can end up freezing in a surprise life threatening situation where they forget to pulse brakes or just lock brakes up without thinking further. So I am all for having ABS available on all bikes - at least for road riding.

My apologies for misunderstanding you, thanks for the clarification....

_Shrek_

13th December 2012, 20:56

Most of the riding public are not experienced racers (and I doubt even experienced racers can do what you claim), so when you need to brake hard and keep rolling ABS helps. It's not the saviour and can't counter for stupid, but it is something for riding on tarmac that I think riders should choose to have, in my opinion.

I'm glad you said "in my opinion"

as I chose not to have ABS, as I do a fair bit of off road, metal, bush tracks etc.. as well as seal & I don't want a machine thinking for me,

& I don't want anyone telling me that I should be getting/have ABS coz it's safer & thats my opinion ;)

MrKiwi

13th December 2012, 21:32

I'm glad you said "in my opinion"

as I chose not to have ABS, as I do a fair bit of off road, metal, bush tracks etc.. as well as seal & I don't want a machine thinking for me,

& I don't want anyone telling me that I should be getting/have ABS coz it's safer & thats my opinion ;)

If you have been following this thread you will have seen my earlier comments that I very quickly said ABS is not appropriate or good for gravel/off road conditions. My comments relate to tarmac. My view is that ABS is a good technology for tarmac and I will eventually get a bike with it. But it is my view ABS should be switch-able and a rider/buyer choice.

_Shrek_

14th December 2012, 05:40

If you have been following this thread you will have seen my earlier comments that I very quickly said ABS is not appropriate or good for gravel/off road conditions. My comments relate to tarmac. My view is that ABS is a good technology for tarmac and I will eventually get a bike with it. But it is my view ABS should be switch-able and a rider/buyer choice.

I had not seen your earlier posts on this! my apolgies for jumping the gun there :niceone:

imdying

14th December 2012, 07:54

Here we go againWell there was a bit of ignorance going around that needed squashing... like things stop faster when the brakes are being cycled on and off. Yeah, maybe in the dark old days when wheels weren't brakes independently by the ABS.

Crasherfromwayback

14th December 2012, 08:48

But it is my view ABS should be switch-able and a rider/buyer choice.

There's something we can agree on!

imdying

14th December 2012, 09:00

There's something we can agree on!I don't think that's the way forward... what I was getting at earlier was perhaps the best option is one that hasn't been offered to you yet. There might be valid reasons why you want it to operate differently (whether that's totally off, allows lockups, whatever) than it does now. Those need to be whittled down to the core of the issue, in the end the engineers can only deal with specifics. Off road is one... perhaps they need to add the ability to detect gravel and have it turn itself off then? (or that sort of thing, if you see where I'm headed?)

Gremlin

14th December 2012, 09:49

Off road is one... perhaps they need to add the ability to detect gravel and have it turn itself off then? (or that sort of thing, if you see where I'm headed?)
Easier said than done I would think. Gravel can be high speed sliding through corners or ultra slow as you pick your way through rocks/rivers etc.

I know the EU wants to make ABS mandatory and full time, but the switchable ABS on my BMW suits me. It's not often off, but when it's off it really needs to be...

Edbear

14th December 2012, 09:56

imdying

14th December 2012, 09:56

Easier said than done I would think.Yes, for you and me, but we're not automotive software engineers! If you ever get the chance to delve into traction control algorithms, you'll be surprised at the amount of 'thinking' the latest ones do, and how cleverly they figure out teeny tiny things that 10 years ago we weren't even aw

I know the EU wants to make ABS mandatory and full time, but the switchable ABS on my BMW suits me. It's not often off, but when it's off it really needs to be...Of course if you never had to touch that switch because the bike wasn't a thicko, that would be the ideal.

Deano

14th December 2012, 17:51

I And even experienced riding gods can end up freezing in a surprise life threatening situation where they forget to pulse brakes or just lock brakes up without thinking further.

Pulsing brakes ?

Who does/needs to do this on a modern bike ?

If I need to emergency brake, or brake for a corner on the track/or road, I never pulse the brake. They go on as hard as possible without locking. Pulsing would decrease your braking distance.

Have I misunderstood your comment

Crasherfromwayback

14th December 2012, 19:19

roogazza

15th December 2012, 08:05

Pulsing brakes ?

Who does/needs to do this on a modern bike ?

If I need to emergency brake, or brake for a corner on the track/or road, I never pulse the brake. They go on as hard as possible without locking. Pulsing would decrease your braking distance.

Have I misunderstood your comment

No. There's a shitload of wank on the internet about such practices. And it's just that. Next time you see a close up of Lorenzo's front brake lever when he's sailing past Rossi on the picks...see if he's 'pulsing' it! Woteva!!!

This 'pulsing' some are talking about(but probably don't understand?) is an effect given by the act of the brake being released slightly and then reapplied ?
In the olden days I used to teach Policemen to stop their cars as fast as possible using what was called at the time, Cadence Braking. If on the initial application the wheels locked, the pedal was released slightly to be reapplied, sometimes a few times if not done right. I'm guessing this could be construed as 'pulsing' ?
Probably most noticeable in cars than bikes and easier to do too.

Sort of like a human ABS if you like.