Orange Street Triple R on Akaroa Highway? (2 January)

[Muppet]

Orange Street Triple R on Akaroa Highway today, with a Ventura pack - if this was you, take a bow for your superb textbook cornering technique. I'm guessing you are either; an old biker with years of experience, a racer, a ex pat POM with Roadcraft experience, an instructor or an ex biker cop. You were smooth, fast and safe. Bloody impressive! Was hoping you'd stop in Little River for a chat, maybe next time!

[Blackbird]

I'd say you're pretty much on the money - sounds like Simon, one of our IAM Observers in Chch. :yes: Young fella though, not an old bugger like me :2thumbsup

Thanks, I'll let him know!

[Blackbird]

There is no such thing as being fast and safe and while I will admit to exceeding the speed limit at times I am fully aware there is a safety trade off in emergency stopping time. I am sure the police would not have dropped the speed tolerance if they felt high speed offered better road safety. I do disagree with the dropping of the tolerance by the way

Muppet said he was fast which doesn't necessarily mean breaking speed limits!

[Blackbird]

I would never have considered our speed limits fast in the first place but you do?

Not at all but if there are tight corners on a road with an open road limit, you can really attack them without breaking the law. I thought that was a reasonable scenario out Akaroa way. The lines/position you take together with the right gear and a few other things quickly shows who knows Roadcraft!

[skippa1]

There is no such thing as being fast and safe and while I will admit to exceeding the speed limit at times I am fully aware there is a safety trade off in emergency stopping time. I am sure the police would not have dropped the speed tolerance if they felt high speed offered better road safety. I do disagree with the dropping of the tolerance by the way

Wtf? Who let nana out?

[skippa1]

Ok I possibly understand what poster 1 was saying that the rider they saw looked like they were cornering on a racetrack with their knee almost touching the road. It is easy to fall off too cornering like that as many do on racetracks. So their point about it being safe is very doubtful anyway in my opinion. I would be interested in seeing any comment from Rastus as to how safe he considers racetrack cornering on the road considering he patrols in that area.

Ah I get it, you're on the windup.

[GTRMAN]

Ok I possibly understand what poster 1 was saying that the rider they saw looked like they were cornering on a racetrack with their knee almost touching the road. It is easy to fall off too cornering like that as many do on racetracks. So their point about it being safe is very doubtful anyway in my opinion. I would be interested in seeing any comment from Rastus as to how safe he considers racetrack cornering on the road considering he patrols in that area.

Who said anything about racetrack cornering? In fact I can guarantee the rider in question was not using racetrack cornering. Believe it or not there are ways of travelling rapidly and smoothly without getting your knee down, or breaking the speed limit.

[Muppet]

There is no such thing as being fast and safe and while I will admit to exceeding the speed limit at times I am fully aware there is a safety trade off in emergency stopping time. I am sure the police would not have dropped the speed tolerance if they felt high speed offered better road safety. I do disagree with the dropping of the tolerance by the way

As someone else has said, fast doesn't mean breaking the speed limit, which this chap wasn't while I was following him. He, like me, went around the corners staying as far wide as possible until he could see his way through and powered out. When I said fast I'm talking about in comparison to cars and other traffic, some of which pulled over to let us pass.

It's quite common to see people cornering as if they know what lies ahead but in reality on the road, none of us do. This guy clearly knew what he was doing and I'm not surprised he is trained in Roadcraft.

[Muppet]

I'd say you're pretty much on the money - sounds like Simon, one of our IAM Observers in Chch. :yes: Young fella though, not an old bugger like me :2thumbsup

Thanks, I'll let him know!

I was filming my ride today and have very good HD footage of him. If he wants to PM me with an email address I will make sure he gets to see it. If he's only a young guy then hats off to him. Quite a good ad for the Street Triple R but I quite like the look of MT-09 at Trevor Pierce Yamaha myself.....

[sil3nt]

I was filming my ride today and have very good HD footage of him. If he wants to PM me with an email address I will make sure he gets to see it. If he's only a young guy then hats off to him. Quite a good ad for the Street Triple R but I quite like the look of MT-09 at Trevor Pierce Yamaha myself.....Chuck it on youtube for us all to see :woohoo:

[DrunkenMistake]

:corn::corn::corn::corn::corn::corn:

[Katman]

He, like me, went around the corners staying as far wide as possible until he could see his way through and powered out.

And therein lies my only problem with the whole IAM ethos.

It would appear that staying wide in a corner (in order to maximise your view through a corner) out-weighs the inherent danger of positioning yourself somewhere that is highly likely to be scattered with roadside detritus.

I would rather sacrifice a bit of corner speed (and keep away from the road verge) to give myself a greater margin of safety when negotiating a blind corner.

[DrunkenMistake]

Thats understandable if he knew the curvature of each bend in the road but if someone comes around the bend slightly over the centre line he has less likelyhood of avoiding a crash than the cars he overtook.


Katman is that you?:rolleyes:

[R650R]

We'll await the video footage with popcorn in hand... But I think what he was saying is there is a lot of people who can even make legal speeds/cornering styles look ugly.
You know like those car drivers that don't exceed the speed limit but are constantly wandering within their lane and speed up slow down with no purpose etc...
Same with some truck drivers can make a unit look nervous while others keep it smooth. One of the greatest compliments I had was when another driver asked if I was empty as my trailer wasn't waving about on certain rough stretch of road, nah mate double stacked with glass bottles 44ton.
No matter what your driving its all about the transition from braking to throttle and how you move yourself about in seat etc...

[Headbanger]

I can see this saga ending in date rape.

Or at least hand holding and sunsets.

[R650R]

And therein lies my biggest problem with the whole IAM ethos.
It would appear that staying wide in a corner (in order to maximise your view through a corner) out-weighs the inherent danger of positioning yourself somewhere that is highly likely to be scattered with roadside detritus.

I would rather sacrifice a bit of corner speed (and keep away from the road verge) to give myself a greater margin of safety when negotiating a blind corner.

I ride/drive that style and find a wider line you can carry much more corner speed and still be safe than slow and tight radius style, and most slippery stuff can be seen in good time if your in safe mode and not racespeed style.
We have so much traffic even on our backroads now that I find it rare for any significant amount of debri to accumulate also. If there's any rubbish its usually in the centre of the wheel tracks and I cringe at mates that ride that position all the time...
On a right hand corner it also gives you a valuable margin if someone crossed the centreline, getting the hell out of the way takes a few crucial milliseconds longer than people realise...

[Katman]

I ride/drive that style and find a wider line you can carry much more corner speed and still be safe than slow and tight radius style, and most slippery stuff can be seen in good time if your in safe mode and not racespeed style.
We have so much traffic even on our backroads now that I find it rare for any significant amount of debri to accumulate also. If there's any rubbish its usually in the centre of the wheel tracks and I cringe at mates that ride that position all the time...
On a right hand corner it also gives you a valuable margin if someone crossed the centreline, getting the hell out of the way takes a few crucial milliseconds longer than people realise...

Bollocks.

New Zealand's roads are notorious for roadside debris.

Sticking to the very outside of a bend is asking for trouble.

[blackdog]

Ok I possibly understand what poster 1 was saying that the rider they saw looked like they were cornering on a racetrack with their knee almost touching the road. It is easy to fall off too cornering like that as many do on racetracks. So their point about it being safe is very doubtful anyway in my opinion. I would be interested in seeing any comment from Rastus as to how safe he considers racetrack cornering on the road considering he patrols in that area.

Maybe motorcycling isn't really your thing.

Perhaps you would be more comfortable at one of these forums.

http://www.knittingparadise.com/
http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?act=home
http://www.discreetgaydating.com/

[R650R]

Bollocks.

New Zealand's roads are notorious for roadside debris.

Sticking to the very outside of a bend is asking for trouble.

Well it works for me :)

[Katman]

Well it works for me :)

Not only does it put you in a position where there is most likely roadside debris, but, if suddenly mid-corner (right hander) you need your brakes, you're going to head straight off the side of the road.

[R650R]

Not only does it put you in a position where there is most likely roadside debris, if suddenly mid-corner (right hander) you need your brakes, you're going to head straight off the side of the road.

That's ok, because if I'm going to brake violently enough to stand the bike up and run out wide as happens in that manner it means something big and solid is in my lane that I don't want to be plastered on. Any hazard less than that I'm quite happy in keeping cool and in control and braking/manoevering appropriately.

[blackdog]

I have been riding for 38 years so motorcycling is hardly not my thing. I respect your right to think those not skilled in "Roadcraft" can not enjoy motorcycling. Everyone has a different threshhold for risk eh.

I respect your right to enjoy motorcycling, even though you are not skilled in roadcraft.

Equally I would expect you to respect the rights of those who are competent, rather than assume that anyone with even marginally larger balls than you is going to end up dead.

[Headbanger]

We have so much traffic even on our backroads now that I find it rare for any significant amount of debri to accumulate also..

hahahahahaahahahahahafuckingha.

Your taking the piss right?

The back roads I ride you have to pay a huge amount of attention to the debris all over the fucking show, and you can bet if you hit cow shit, your probably gonna see some cows.

[Katman]

That's ok, because if I'm going to brake violently enough to stand the bike up and run out wide as happens in that manner it means something big and solid is in my lane that I don't want to be plastered on.

A small pot-hole can cause the same reaction.

Giving yourself room on your left when taking a right hand corner gives you the option of altering your line either way should the need arise.

[Headbanger]

That's ok, because if I'm going to brake violently enough to stand the bike up and run out wide as happens in that manner it means something big and solid is in my lane that I don't want to be plastered on. Any hazard less than that I'm quite happy in keeping cool and in control and braking/manoevering appropriately.

Not what he was getting at, You can apply the brakes throughout a corner without standing the bike up, I believe he was saying by not giving yourself any leeway in the event shit goes wrong (due to whatever event or unforeseen circumstances) and you have to change your line your only option available is the road shoulder, all so you could see a little further down a section of road you haven't actually got to yet.

[Gremlin]

And therein lies my biggest problem with the whole IAM ethos.

It would appear that staying wide in a corner (in order to maximise your view through a corner) out-weighs the inherent danger of positioning yourself somewhere that is highly likely to be scattered with roadside detritus.

I would rather sacrifice a bit of corner speed (and keep away from the road verge) to give myself a greater margin of safety when negotiating a blind corner.
You're taking one piece out of a puzzle and assessing it without factoring in everything else. Roadcraft is a system containing multiple pieces.

Equally, using your brakes mid corner means you have mis-read the information available to you, possibly placed yourself in the wrong position on the road etc.

Number 1 is safety. If doing something isn't safe, then why are you doing it, or, don't do it.

Additionally, trying to understand roadcraft as single elements without the correct coaching, or reading and understanding the entire system, is useless. There are multiple reasons behind many of the aspects, and not something that would ever be taught through a forum.

[Headbanger]

But if "Roadcraft" was seen as proof of competency you would have to pass a course in it in order to get your bike licence would you not??? Good luck knowing your fast roadcraft skills will keep you safer than those without.

Going fast on the road is about being smooth, Not ringing the arse out of your motor. Being smooth requires an understanding of your machinery, the road, and the task.

With this knowledge you are far safer then those without it.

[Headbanger]

Equally, using your brakes mid corner means you have mis-read the information available to you, possibly placed yourself in the wrong position on the road etc.


Not at all, it means you have read the informantion available to you and acted accordingly.

No one is all knowing, and no situation is locked while an action takes place.

The key word is available, You can't know what you don't know. But you can prepare for it, allways leave room to change your plan.Have a way out.

[Ocean1]

Not at all, it means you have read the informantion available to you and acted accordingly.

No one is all knowing, and no situation is locked while an action takes place.

The key word is available, You can't know what you don't know. But you can prepare for it, allways leave room to change your plan.Have a way out.

All of which pretty much perfectly describes the late apexing technique. Which, by the way has fuck all to do with lurking anywhere near the edge of the road or any supposed debris.

[Headbanger]

You would not like riding in ChCh because a lot of roads are far from smooth and require greather skill than what you are used to. Riding a bike is not rocket science which you seem to make out it is to ride well or "smoothly" to use your lingo.

Ridden around Chch a shitload of times.

Biggest issue there is fuckwits in cars.

That aside, what exactly is "greather skill than what you are used to"

[Headbanger]

All of which pretty much perfectly describes the late apexing technique. Which, by the way has fuck all to do with lurking anywhere near the edge of the road or any supposed debris.

Ok, so you made a statement, and provided zero clarification or information, so while I'm aware of your position you haven't enlightened me as to why you hold that view.

well fucking done.:lol:

[Madness]

Motorcycles. Just ride the fucking things.

[Headbanger]

From what you have said it is the fuckwits in cars who are obviously affecting your ability to ride as smoothly as you would like.

Not at all, In a nutshell Im a shit rider.

Hence I keep my space from every other fucker, and take note of debris.

That shit will fuck things up.

Other then that, I own a Speed Triple, I don't have to try and look cool, The rest of the world just looks on in awe.

[Berries]

Motorbike riders in Christchurch must be pretty shit if one going around a corner and not crashing warrants a thread on here.

Either that or she was really hot.

[Dogboy900]

Motorcycles. Just ride the fucking things.


Amen to that brother!

The OP complimented another riders technique and some people that were not there, and did not see the rider in questions riding, are making assumptions about the safety of it.
I hope they do not assume they know things they don't when riding!

[Headbanger]

I hope they do not assume they know things they don't when riding!

Like if there is a God?

[Dogboy900]

Like if there is a God?

There IS a god, and he is a motorcycling god, and he rides an orange Street Triple R ;)

[ckai]

There IS a god, and he is a motorcycling god, and he rides an orange Street Triple R ;)

Amen

PS. What's all this non-sense regarding riding on the verge to use the late apex technique??? Couldn't you also use the late apex technique by using the outside wheel track??? If 3+ wheels use it, then there would be no debris would there?

On a similar note, how the hell can someone criticize others riding based on only written testimonial from a 3rd party? :eek5: So much is wrong with that is mind boggling.

PPS. I wanna see the footage. Nothing like watching a smooth trumpy :Punk:

[The End]

So can we get some YouTube footage of the rider OP is talking about to settle this fast/safe business? :killingme

[Headbanger]

Amen

On a similar note, how the hell can someone criticize others riding based on only written testimonial from a 3rd party? :eek5: So much is wrong with that is mind boggling.



We were discussing the concept, Not the specific unseen actions of an unknown person.....

That would be a bit mad.:blink:

[Voltaire]

leave home earlier, thats what they guy on the 1926 Douglas 350 told me on New Years Day " at 40 mph you get there soon enough"

[Conquiztador]

A pic (or in this case a vid) or it never happened.:corn:

[Katman]

All of which pretty much perfectly describes the late apexing technique. Which, by the way has fuck all to do with lurking anywhere near the edge of the road or any supposed debris.

What's late apexing got to do with road riding?

[BigAl]

Was this the guy? Looks like a fairly good rider.

http://walllpaperbasecamp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Marc-Marquez-MotoGP-Test-Sepang-HD-Wallpaper.jpg

[Grubber]

I have been riding for 38 years so motorcycling is hardly not my thing. I respect your right to think those not skilled in "Roadcraft" can not enjoy motorcycling. Everyone has a different threshhold for risk eh.

Where exactly did anyone say you couldn't enjoy it.
Seems to me you have just misinterpreted the whole OP.
What part of smooth rider etc don't you get.?:brick:

[Blackbird]

So Muppet starts a thread praising a rider for excellent roadcraft. :Punk: In typical Kiwi Biker fashion, it then degenerates into misinterpretations and general ignorance by idiots who clearly have no idea about Roadcraft - well done!

If I was the Street Triple rider, I wouldn't want a video of his riding posted anywhere public to invite further stupid comments.

For riders who genuinely want to see a great example of good roadcraft on YouTube, have a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UeBwIlAlxs. It was produced for the Highways Authority in the UK using an IAM/RoSPA level rider and his commentary clearly shows his high level of situational awareness. In IAM, we would expect a rider who is ready to sit the Advanced Test to deliver a similar commentary.

[rossirep]

there is a video of this akaroa ride?? well less talk and more show..

and I think some of the "riders" on this site should sell their bikes and get a bus ticket cause you seem to be a bunch of moaning nanas
who always have something negative to say about others riding if they don't ride the way you want them to..

but yeah post the video.. do it..!!!

[R650R]

Not what he was getting at, You can apply the brakes throughout a corner without standing the bike up, I believe he was saying by not giving yourself any leeway in the event shit goes wrong (due to whatever event or unforeseen circumstances) and you have to change your line your only option available is the road shoulder, all so you could see a little further down a section of road you haven't actually got to yet.

Fully aware of that and can brake in that style no worries, didn't want to get too long winded explained every detail when all I'm saying is you can ride those wider lines and still have options, it doesn't mean being right on the edge of the berm cutting the grass etc...
Blackbird, just scanned through that vid quickly, looks what I call normal competent road reading that's natural and common sense to me. Looks a lot like the hazard video they added to the licence test when I was over there which is the one single piece of road safety brilliance I've ever seen govt dept produce. Aimed at learners of course, but they use a similar video where you have to anticipate those hazards and click the mouse button straight away. All along the lines of getting people into the mindset of what could happen up ahead.

[Geeen]

Motorcycles. Just ride the fucking things.

Wot he said



......
Other then that, I own a Speed Triple, I don't have to try and look cool, The rest of the world just looks on in awe.

Best post in the thread so far............ :laugh::laugh:

[Scouse]

Thats understandable if he knew the curvature of each bend in the road but if someone comes around the bend slightly over the centre line he has less likelyhood of avoiding a crash than the cars he overtook.you should change your name to Asperger's.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I have an orange ST-R.

Wasn't me.

[skippa1]

I have been riding for 38 years so motorcycling is hardly not my thing. I respect your right to think those not skilled in "Roadcraft" can not enjoy motorcycling. Everyone has a different threshhold for risk eh.

This is about the 3rd time I have read posts by you talking about your "38years" of experience riding bikes, you forget to mention how many years experience you have jumping to conclusions

[Ocean1]

Ok, so you made a statement, and provided zero clarification or information, so while I'm aware of your position you haven't enlightened me as to why you hold that view.

well fucking done.:lol:

I don't have a "position", and my statement clearly referred to your own excellent advice, which happened to perfectly describe the technique you were attempting to discredit.

Guess you could have another go at discrediting it, using different advice...


What's late apexing got to do with road riding?

It's a term used to describe the same technique you referred to as "the whole IAM ethos":


And therein lies my only problem with the whole IAM ethos.

It would appear that staying wide in a corner (in order to maximise your view through a corner) out-weighs the inherent danger of positioning yourself somewhere that is highly likely to be scattered with roadside detritus.

And, while I haven't read the book I'm pretty certain the technique has fuck all to do with positioning yourself anywhere likely to be scattered with detritus. Which sorta makes your "problem" a bit redundant.

'Course, you could always ask one of the senior proponents for clarification of the technique and it's rationale, because it sounds very likely you know fuck all about it.

[Headbanger]

I don't have a "position", and my statement clearly referred to your own excellent advice, which happened to perfectly describe the technique you were attempting to discredit.

Guess you could have another go at discrediting it, using different advice...


And there's your problem, I wasn't trying to discredit fuck all, I was trying to clarify to numbnuts why being on the vertge of the road wasn't the greatest place in the world. I care not in the slightest if that is or isn't part of some ethos.

Who uses a word like that anyhow?

But seeing as we are here and you're holding it up as the holy grail, enlighten us poor ignorant souls in a paragraph or two.

[Blackbird]

....... give the impression some create an impression their teaching will make riders feel bullet proof.
As I said before if this riding school was as good as you claim why is a pass not compulsary to get a licence?

That's the problem with debates on a forum - anything said can and will be misinterpreted! I wasn't going to bother to waste my breath again but I will make one comment on the above. IAM is not a "riding school". You can do your own reading on it. The measurable basis for mentoring to Advanced Test standard is the UK Police Roadcraft manual. Expecting a beginner to ride to an advanced standard will give a predictable result. It's there for people who wish to progress further. I might also add that with the introduction of the new CBTA motorcycle tests (which IAM has no involvement with), NZTA has higher expectations of the training providers and one of the qualification options is to be a holder of the IAM or RoSPA Advanced Test.

Another advantage is that my insurer gives me a hefty discount for being an Advanced Test holder :niceone:

[Katman]

'Course, you could always ask one of the senior proponents for clarification of the technique and it's rationale, because it sounds very likely you know fuck all about it.

I don't know exactly how senior the IAM proponent I spoke to about the wide cornering technique is.

Maybe I'll ask him next time I see him.

[haydes55]

As I said an opinion from Rastus would be interesting to confirm or deny that safety is not compromised by going fast around bends. I am sure his opinion would settle the debate one way or the other and after reading his comments in the Speed Tolerance reduction thread I could not see him agreeing with those posters from the IAMS riding school who feel going fast around bends likely about the recomended limit can be safe.









I didn't buy a bike to ride in an upright position around 65k corners at 65k. Can I have your tyres after you're done wearing out the middle?

OP was saying the rider was smooth and fast. He never said the rider was too fast. A fluid smooth rider can go around a corner fairly fast and still have room to adjust to road surface changes or other traffic. Unless you're at 100% of your ability around every corner, you have room to avoid hazzards.

[Wingnut]

JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!! CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!

Ask him he'll know if its dangerous or not.... Opinions are in the mouth of the retard......

[Grubber]

You just dont get it do you as my comment about poster 1 was the claim that riders could take bends fast but still be safe. While a further coment said he did not exceed the speed limit was he meaning the open road limit or the recomended limit that most bends on that road have? I am guessing that he exceeded the recomended limit and still claims he was as safe as anyone or even safer having been to a riding school. There could very well be a case of many riders going to riding schools who come away with an over confident level in their ability because of the education. I do not want to put down riding schools as such but the claim
made by poster 1 and yourself give the impression some create an impression their teaching will make riders feel bullet proof.
As I said before if this riding school was as good as you claim why is a pass not compulsary to get a licence?

Not sure where you get all your high and mighty attitude from.
You may not be aware but even after 34 years or whatever you been riding, you just may not be as good as you think you are.
It also may be possible that many other riders a far better than you. So they may be able to take corners faster than you and yet "god forbid" they may even do it safely at that higher speed than you.
Perhaps it may be a good idea not to judge others riding on your nana ability.
There was never anything about exceeding speed limits anywhere in the post nor was there any claim to absolute speed of any type. Not sure what the hell you were reading to be honest.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Unless you're at 100% of your ability around every corner, you have room to avoid hazzards.

There aren't that many orange Dodge Chargers on that road. More's the pity. Yeee Haw!

[HenryDorsetCase]

I didn't buy a bike to ride in an upright position around 65k corners at 65k.

either 65kph = 65mph, or the rule of thumb is times 2 add ten. So 65 = 140. Sounds legit.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Have you people got nothing better to do? Me. I'm just making lunch and idly surfing.

[ellipsis]

...i've been married 25 years and dont even know the correct way to use the clothes line...so she says...

[98tls]

...i've been married 25 years and dont even know the correct way to use the clothes line...so she says...

I get that to,fine by me i hate hanging out washing.

[Ocean1]

And there's your problem,

I'm not the one with the problem, if you trundle back to your earlier post you'll recall that you were.


I wasn't trying to discredit fuck all, I was trying to clarify to numbnuts why being on the vertge of the road wasn't the greatest place in the world.

And where did numbnuts recommend being on the verge of the road?


Who uses a word like that anyhow?


And therein lies my only problem with the whole IAM ethos.

All caught up now?

[Grubber]

I understood fully what was said. Fast doeant mean toooo fast. And yes fast can mean safe. Maybe thats the bit you dont get.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[Headbanger]

I'm not the one with the problem, if you trundle back to your earlier post you'll recall that you were.



Afraid not sunshine, Had no problem to start with, have no problem at the moment. Never heard of whatever it is you think I was trying to discredit until you pooped your not quite 2cents in what has been a fantastic conversation.


ps-Im just fuckin with ya, This thread peaked a long way back.

[Headbanger]

Serious question

If I (hypothetically) went around a comer signed posted at 45kmh doing 145km/h....whose the fucktard?

Remember that I have no concept of an ethos and I ride a Speed Triple.





Lmfao.

[Grubber]

Serious question

If I (hypothetically) went around a comer signed posted at 45kmh doing 145km/h....whose the fucktard?

Remember that I have no concept of an ethos and I ride a Speed Triple.




Lmfao.

I'm pickin ya wouldn't get around the corner......do i win?
I'll take 2 scratchys and a lotto ticket please.

[Headbanger]

.....do i win?


This is Kiwibiker, Everyones a winner here.

[Grubber]

This is Kiwibiker, Everyones a winner here.

So what about the scratchys and the lotto ticket, we still good for those?

[Ocean1]

Serious question

If I (hypothetically) went around a comer signed posted at 45kmh doing 145km/h....whose the fucktard?

Remember that I have no concept of an ethos and I ride a Speed Triple.





Lmfao.

You went around it.

Sorta makes the guy that put the sign there ever so slightly silly dunnit?

Maybe he didn't realise a speed tripple was immune.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Serious question

If I (hypothetically) went around a comer signed posted at 45kmh doing 145km/h....whose the fucktard?

Remember that I have no concept of an ethos and I ride a Speed Triple.


On a closed circuit, clearly. because no one would exceed 103 kph on the Queens Highways for ANY reason.

[HenryDorsetCase]

This is Kiwibiker, Everyones a winner here.

you know it baby.

JQsg6XXGxXQ

Its the KB theme song.

Plus any excuse to listen to that riff.

[Tazz]

<img src="http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS0uJ6k591jlUfTCIjN-b7N06-7C_j6oXc5TirLnA0sQJTOBFG8" height=400 width=600>

[Headbanger]

The only time when I would consider fast to be safe would be when overtaking.

Unless you go so slow you fall over.

Thats not safe.

Might get a bruise.

[pritch]

As I said an opinion from Rastus would be interesting to confirm or deny that safety is not compromised by going fast around bends.

So, how fast were you going when you went around the bend? :devil2:

I have to acknowledge your bravery(?) in arguing with an IAM member with no evident understanding of even what the IAM is.

Katman,
I have had several copies of the Police training handbook on which the IAM syllabus is based and I seem to recall that it does include advice to avoid the detritus on the outside of a right hand bend. My only reservation regarding their dogma concerns wide entry on a blind left hander in which case you are ideally positioned to hit the 4WD cutting the corner from the opposite direction right between the headlights. UK magazines have campaigned for this to be changed but getting a civil servant to stick their head above the parapet to suggest amending the "bible" is asking a lot.

My condolences to the OP. His post deserved a more intelligent response. Oh wait. This is KB. :whistle:

[Katman]

My only reservation regarding their dogma concerns wide entry on a blind left hander in which case you are ideally positioned to hit the 4WD cutting the corner from the opposite direction right between the headlights. UK magazines have campaigned for this to be changed but getting a civil servant to stick their head above the parapet to suggest amending the "bible" is asking a lot.


Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who questions the validity of their cornering technique.

And my understanding is that it is not just a 'wide entry' that they recommend. I believe their idea is to stay wide right the way through the corner.

[GTRMAN]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who questions the validity of their cornering technique.

And my understanding is that it is not just a 'wide entry' that they recommend. I believe their idea is to stay wide right the way through the corner.

Here's the thing though, positioning to the right for a left hand bend affords you the earliest opportunity to see the aforementioned 4x4 and take appropriate action. Always sacrifice position for safety, that is the most important tenant of roadcraft. As others have already said, it does you no favours to single out a single element of the roadcraft system when all the elements need to be considered together and in context.

[Katman]

Here's the thing though, positioning to the right for a left hand bend affords you the earliest opportunity to see the aforementioned 4x4 and take appropriate action. Always sacrifice position for safety, that is the most important tenant of roadcraft. As others have already said, it does you no favours to single out a single element of the roadcraft system when all the elements need to be considered together and in context.

I would rather sacrifice a bit of corner speed than compromise my cornering position.

[Gremlin]

And my understanding is that it is not just a 'wide entry' that they recommend. I believe their idea is to stay wide right the way through the corner.
Probably best you know the whole system before trying to argue about it, but then, unless you were interested you wouldn't want to spend the time, and it's not a couple of minutes to learn it.

Regardless, I think we're flogging the proverbial horse now. Blackbird said it way back, it's not going to be ideal for everyone, but it is an internationally recognised system. Personally, I agree with it.

[rastuscat]

Havent read this whole thread, but read the OP and have chatted to the bloke who wrote it.

WTF is wrong with admiring good riding skills?

The speed advantage bikes have over cars is significant in bends. Our ability to lean into corners gives us a huge advantage over cagers. Get your lines right and corners are like motorcycling nirvana.

Get a decent bend right and its all good. Just remember that you've only got to get it wrong once for it to be not worth the thrill.

Keep a little in reserve. Then use that when it gets ugly. It might save your insurance company a panel beaters delight.

[Katman]

Probably best you know the whole system before trying to argue about it, but then, unless you were interested you wouldn't want to spend the time, and it's not a couple of minutes to learn it.


How the fuck would you have the slightest clue what I might know about the IAM roadcraft system?

[Blackbird]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who questions the validity of their cornering technique.

With respect Steve, when you get a few more IAM rides under your belt, you'll realise that the so-called "dogma" isn't dogmatic at all! The principle is to take a wide position to get maximum view through the bend and time to react as has already been correctly stated. However, each corner is assessed on individual merits with the rider scanning the road surface for potential hazards and adjusting their position to suit (the Safety, Stability and View components of Roadcraft). GTRMan makes an absolutely valid point too.

This really isn't the place to debate riding techniques as we've all seen ample evidence that it's pretty much a pointless medium for doing so. This is my own personal opinion, not that of IAM; but if you think it has something to offer you, come along and enjoy it and ask lots of questions. If you think it's not for you based on your one or two rides so far, then it's your decision if you wish to stop coming. There is a waiting list for people who are keen to see what it offers in many regions.

[rastuscat]

BTW. The roadcraft system rocks. We use it. After a while it becomes subconscious. Worth spending the time to learn it.

[Gremlin]

How the fuck would you have the slightest clue what I might know about the IAM roadcraft system?
As someone comfortable with the system, training towards Observer status and therefore needing to have a good understanding, you clearly have had some exposure, but unless you've been abbreviating in your replies (quite possible) you do not have a comprehensive understanding as to all the ins and outs, and why things are done in the way they are done.

You're always welcome to more rides, IAM is still expanding and mostly limited to 3 regions currently, but the aim is to expose as many willing riders to it as possible over the coming years.

[pritch]

Here's the thing though, positioning to the right for a left hand bend affords you the earliest opportunity to see the aforementioned 4x4 and take appropriate action.

I mentioned a blind left hand bend. BIKE magazine put a camera on just such a bend and there were a number of 4WDs, and even a caravan, encroaching on the wrong side of the road exactly at the point where the handbook says the bike should be. Any one of which would probably have been the last thing you ever saw if you followed the manual to the letter. The only appropriate action is to stay somewhat left of the position advised in the Police handbook on a blind bend.

[Headbanger]

Here's the thing though, positioning to the right for a left hand bend affords you the earliest opportunity to see the aforementioned 4x4 and take appropriate action.

So, expose yourself to the potential risk in order to then take evasive action to avoid that which you just exposed yourself to.

That's more logical then just planning for the potential risk and maintaining a safe position?

Holy fuck, I'm going to take this one to work, Expose yourself to danger in order to avoid it.

Hey you, Jump in front of that dump truck, then jump out of the way, Champion.

[Headbanger]

Also, why does anyone believe that one component of a system can't be considered on its own merits?

If it makes sense it will stand up to scrutiny, if not that it should be approached critically and modified as required.

Any system that doesn't include a method for review can't be improved, and lessons learned are meaningless.

[ellipsis]

...if only I had known that a fast, smooth motorcyclist was out on HW75...i'd have been down there in a flash, to wave at him...

[Ocean1]

I mentioned a blind left hand bend. BIKE magazine put a camera on just such a bend and there were a number of 4WDs, and even a caravan, encroaching on the wrong side of the road exactly at the point where the handbook says the bike should be. Any one of which would probably have been the last thing you ever saw if you followed the manual to the letter. The only appropriate action is to stay somewhat left of the position advised in the Police handbook on a blind bend.

Been years since I read the handbook, and I wasn't riding road bikes when I did, but I seem to recall a general precept that pretty much all of the recommended lines were simply a first cut guide. In other words they're to be modified in line with conditions on every corner you approach.

Which is no different from what most have said: ride to the conditions.

The difference being that the UK police system goes as far as defining what response is recommended for each condition variable. And with the number of variables being rather large that may explain why it takes so long to assimilate.

NZ roads are certainly different, as is our driving culture, and maybe the handbook is less than perfect wrt some recommendations. Dunno. I’ll continue to simply put as much time between me and as many of the multitude of threats I see on the road as I see appropriate.

[blackdog]

...It is easy to fall off too cornering like that as many do on racetracks. So their point about it being safe is very doubtful anyway in my opinion. I would be interested in seeing any comment from Rastus...


...WTF is wrong with admiring good riding skills?

The speed advantage bikes have over cars is significant in bends. Our ability to lean into corners gives us a huge advantage over cagers. Get your lines right and corners are like motorcycling nirvana.

Get a decent bend right and its all good...


BTW. The roadcraft system rocks. We use it. After a while it becomes subconscious. Worth spending the time to learn it.

That awkward moment when you realise you should have kept yer trap shut.

Wicked burn.

[Headbanger]

So you have reservations about some aspect of their training too but still hold them in high regard just the same. So don't put me down because I pick a possible fault with their teaching of fast being safe based on poster 1s claim/impression. If their teaching is in the police training handbook how come the road speed tolerance has been lowered as it would go against IAMs dogma would it not?

Your not helping.:rolleyes:

[Headbanger]

But does not the claim made by poster 1 of going fast and safe conflict with your many comments in the Speed Tolerance reduction forum?

Ron Burgundy is going to punch you in the ovaries.

[Gremlin]

I mentioned a blind left hand bend. BIKE magazine put a camera on just such a bend and there were a number of 4WDs, and even a caravan, encroaching on the wrong side of the road exactly at the point where the handbook says the bike should be. Any one of which would probably have been the last thing you ever saw if you followed the manual to the letter. The only appropriate action is to stay somewhat left of the position advised in the Police handbook on a blind bend.
By placing yourself in that position you are in a position to see oncoming road users, other hazards (like a cyclist on your side of the road) and the road (layout, condition) earlier, and also oncoming vehicles see you earlier. It is not expected that you maintain that position, but sacrifice position for safety. You can adjust your line as you are not totally committed to the corner, you've selected your position, speed and gear based on the information available and you're travelling to the conditions.


If their teaching is in the police training handbook how come the road speed tolerance has been lowered as it would go against IAMs dogma would it not?
How would it? Part of being an advanced rider is following the road rules. The tolerance is not in question or in use, as the speed limit is the speed limit. You need to demonstrate use and restraint of the throttle in equal measures as conditions dictate.

[skippa1]

But does not the claim made by poster 1 of going fast and safe conflict with your many comments in the Speed Tolerance reduction forum?

You should know the answer to that, trust your 38 years of experience:blink:

[Grubber]

The only time when I would consider fast to be safe would be when overtaking.

Oh my God.....so out on an empty road would be much more dangerous would it, than riding along side a car going the same direction with an oncoming lane to worry about.
Not gonna ride with you any time soon thanks.:(

[Crasherfromwayback]

The only time when I would consider fast to be safe would be when overtaking.

That's one of THE queerest things I've ever seen here. And man I've seen some queer shit.

[Erelyes]

To jump on the bash Cassina bandwagon here....


the claim made by poster 1 and yourself give the impression some create an impression their teaching will make riders feel bullet proof.
As I said before if this riding school was as good as you claim why is a pass not compulsary to get a licence?

1) Most that take optional driver/rider training of their own volition aren't gonna be the type that think they're bulletproof.
Those who are on the course because their parents / their employer / the Courts require it are another kettle of fish of course.

2) To take your bait and open the can of worms (two cliches in one), To some extent we live in a free society, that includes saying "this is how much training you have to gain the right to drive, but you can do more if you want".


But does not the claim made by poster 1 of going fast and safe conflict with your many comments in the Speed Tolerance reduction forum?

The simple answer to your question is 'Perhaps'. The OP said the rider was fast. Fast is a relative term. Fast compared to what? To your average motorist? The average campervan? The posted speed limit? You're making an assumption about what the OP meant, contrasting assumptions can just as easily be made (and have been).

[rossirep]

come on guys leave him alone ffs..!! he rides a 1982 CB750 at the end of the day so that should show you all he knows bugger all about riding fast or smooth

[SMOKEU]

The only time when I would consider fast to be safe would be when overtaking.

Fast, relative to what?




The speed advantage bikes have over cars is significant in bends. Our ability to lean into corners gives us a huge advantage over cagers. Get your lines right and corners are like motorcycling nirvana.


Yes, if you're comparing a modern sports bike to an ill handling commuter car, van or SUV. Put a well setup Nissan GTR or Mitsubishi Evo with a very good driver up against any bike, and the cars will be able to corner much faster, especially in real world conditions where the roads are rough and littered with debris.

[jasonu]

As I said an opinion from Rastus would be interesting to confirm or deny that safety is not compromised by going fast around bends. I am sure his opinion would settle the debate one way or the other .

Are you saying that because Rastus is a cop then anything he says on this matter is true and correct and everyone should believe it?
No offence Rastus, maybe it is true.

[Grubber]

Yea na. You didnt read it properly again. Didnt say anything about speed limit. My point was the traffic intensity and....oh never mind you wont get it for sure.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[eelracing]

Yes, if you're comparing a modern sports bike to an ill handling commuter car, van or SUV. Put a well setup Nissan GTR or Mitsubishi Evo with a very good driver up against any bike, and the cars will be able to corner much faster, especially in real world conditions where the roads are rough and littered with debris.

Far be it from me to put words in popo's mouth (you'd have to dodge the donuts first)but I think he was more meaning maneuverability in the corner.
But any fool knows cars are faster in corners but still dull-as compared to a cornering/accelerating bike.
Bikes have multiple line choices,just like their riders you can stick to the tried and true or try different shit...enjoy it or stop learning.

[skippa1]

My argument is not that his view should be taken as right or wrong by others but am just saying poster 1s thing about being safe going fast is in conflict with what I interpreted him saying in the speed tolerance thread.

What you really mean is you jumped to a conclusion......one that nobody else did, then suggested that Rastus might back you up, and he didn't

overreact much?

[pritch]

So you have reservations about some aspect of their training too but still hold them in high regard just the same. So don't put me down because I pick a possible fault with their teaching of fast being safe based on poster 1s claim/impression. If their teaching is in the police training handbook how come the road speed tolerance has been lowered as it would go against IAMs dogma would it not?



My only reservation relates to one tiny part of a whole manual. Which smallish book I recommend. If you can only have one motorcycling book that's the one to have IMNSHO, but I can't give you one. Every one of the several copies I have owned have been passed on to newer riders. And at 38 years or whatever, you would qualify.

The IAM is a British based organisation, their training is based on the British Police manual. There would be very few people in the NZ Police force who would have taken their training if any. Even less would be qualified to teach it, unless some of/one of the more recent Brit imports are thus qualified.

WTF would our silly (apparently failed) holiday tolerances have to do with anything?

May I suggest that you look at Blackbird's posts on the IAM in other threads and in his blogs, then at least you will have an inkling of what you are writing about.

I don't want to be rude but sadly I'm reminded of Mark Twain's admonition, "Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

[nodrog]

.... The NZTA used to have road safety advertisments that said "The faster you go the bigger the mess" if I have remembered correctly which does conflict with poster 1s comment about going fast can be safe does it not?

They also had one with Bad Boy Bubby spinning a wheel at intersections, and one Mr T wrote about the 2 second rule.

One can only conclude that they are taking the piss.

[haydes55]

Rastus has neither backed me up or rubbished my opinion other than to say he thought the IAMS training was good but said nothing about whether going fast was safe as poster 1 said. The NZTA used to have road safety advertisments that said "The faster you go the bigger the mess" if I have remembered correctly which does conflict with poster 1s comment about going fast can be safe does it not?







The faster you go, the bigger the mess.....
If you're silly enough to crash.

Yes that campaign was very vague, basically stating common sense, hit a wall at 120km/h and you'll feel a bit more of a bump than at 100km/h.

I could take a 65km/h corner at 100km/h or 65km/h and still come out the other side shiny side up 1million times over. So slowing down doesn't necessarily add safety when there is no unavoidable risk to begin with.

[caseye]

Define fast?
I enjoy riding my old coal burner and can corner quite effectively at a fairly constant speed due to making sure my lines are clean and accurate, this often means I'm through a corner or corners much quicker than other riders.
Am I therefore going too fast?
Perhaps for you, who knows, if you don't feel comfortable cornering at the speeds others do, then that's your issue, not theirs.
Speed has never killed anyone, it's the sudden stop that does that.
As for the fucktards who do 100K's and only 100K's per hour in the "fast lane' on our car parks, um, sorry motorways, they should be shot with a ball of their own shit!

[ellipsis]

I could take a 65km/h corner at 100km/h or 65km/h and still come out the other side .


...i can get out of bed do a sharp right, find the door, another sharp left, down the hall, another sharp left and not miss the bowl in the dark, sheer necessity...but will always kick my toe and bash my nose on the architrave on the last right out of the hall on the way back...fucking guaranteed...

[SVboy]

To the op-well done for complimenting a fellow rider.To cassina, all those years and I am guessing you dont really 'get' bikes. Thats sad. Headbanger-not sure you have taken too many drugs, or not enough but struggling to follow your 'lines' at times. Cant fault the speed triple however.....
Katman-you have been invited to find out more about a riding system that might make a difference-now is not the time to retreat into the katman cave of cynisim and negativity-sieze the day!
Ride on street triple rider!

[98tls]

To the op-well done for complimenting a fellow rider.To cassina, all those years and I am guessing you dont really 'get' bikes. Thats sad. Headbanger-not sure you have taken too many drugs, or not enough but struggling to follow your 'lines' at times. Cant fault the speed triple however.....
Katman-you have been invited to find out more about a riding system that might make a difference-now is not the time to retreat into the katman cave of cynisim and negativity-sieze the day!
Ride on street triple rider!

About it really,motorcycles and the uses of them are great n varied far more so than when i started riding so after reading through this thread all i can add is each to there own but will say the attraction to them for me then and still has never had anything to do with how safe they are,someone said in an earlier post "just ride the fucking thing" to which i agree,with a head full of all this "correct" stuff its no wonder plenty get it wrong.

[300weatherby]

...if only I had known that a fast, smooth motorcyclist was out on HW75...i'd have been down there in a flash, to wave at him...

You sound exited by this, just What would you wave at him with?:eek5:

[Grubber]

The faster you go, the bigger the mess.....
If you're silly enough to crash.

Yes that campaign was very vague, basically stating common sense, hit a wall at 120km/h and you'll feel a bit more of a bump than at 100km/h.

I could take a 65km/h corner at 100km/h or 65km/h and still come out the other side shiny side up 1million times over. So slowing down doesn't necessarily add safety when there is no unavoidable risk to begin with.

If I could have unscrambled that in my head, I would have said it. Word for word perfect.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[haydes55]

Your coment about being silly enough to crash is an insult to anyone who has come to grief through no fault of their own. You sound like a real ego head and your luck so far could very well run out one day and then who would be the silly one?








you spent this entire thread saying how silly people are who think cornering fast is safe. So if people crash from being too fast, they were being silly.

Sorry I jumped to conclusions and put words in your mouth..... Who does that remind you of?


For the record I have been silly enough to crash.... Twice.....

[Headbanger]

. Headbanger-not sure you have taken too many drugs, or not enough but struggling to follow your 'lines' at times.

Simple enough, I don't agree with a system that requires a person to be placed at risk in order to ascertain the risk, Nor do I have trust in people who when a system is questioned reply back with don't question the system. Its pure arrogance to claim a component of a system can't be assessed, or that only those holding some so called expertise in the system can question it, or that somehow because some other organization uses it ,it is beyond reproach.

Funny enough in my day job I'm knee deep in building safety management systems to suit international compliance and I hold qualifications in training and assessing, And not only would whats been presented here in concept raise a few alarm bells on a number of levels but (most of) the responses in defense of the system wouldn't carry any favour.



But fuck that shite, I'm here to entertain myself.

[skippa1]

Simple enough, I don't agree with a system that requires a person to be placed at risk in order to ascertain the risk, Nor do I have trust in people who when a system is questioned reply back with don't question the system. Its pure arrogance to claim a component of a system can't be assessed, or that only those holding some so called expertise in the system can question it, or that somehow because some other organization uses it ,it is beyond reproach.

Funny enough in my day job I'm knee deep in building safety management systems to suit international compliance and I hold qualifications in training and assessing, And not only would whats been presented here in concept raise a few alarm bells on a number of levels but (most of) the responses in defense of the system wouldn't carry any favour.



But fuck that shite, I'm here to entertain myself.

This does raise the question of relevance of your qualifications in regard to assessing a motorcycle riding system. Tell us more about that (only for my entertainment of course lolz) just trying to assess the relevance of your answer in terms of comparison and expertise

[SMOKEU]

"xx years riding". I really hate it when people say that. I know people who have been riding for over 40 years, but in the last 30 years they only ride once or twice a year for a quick ride around the block. It hardly makes them a good rider, the opposite in fact.

[Headbanger]

This does raise the question of relevance of your qualifications in regard to assessing a motorcycle riding system. Tell us more about that (only for my entertainment of course lolz) just trying to assess the relevance of your answer in terms of comparison and expertise

I wasn't assessing the system, merely discussing one aspect of it that was raised.

If I was going to look into the system in a real sense I'd surround myself with the required expertise, tools and resources for the task, and then roll it out for consultation with the grass roots people delivering the training.

Looking at the single item as discussed purely from a risk management angle, I stand by my comments, although I consider Gremlins earlier post well put together. It certainly provided more detail then anything anyone else had put forward.


Shits and giggles aside, Training on any level is a good thing, So is staying the fuck out of the way of oncoming traffic.

[Blackbird]

Shits and giggles aside, Training on any level is a good thing, So is staying the fuck out of the way of oncoming traffic.

Just out of curiosity, have you done any formal training in (say) the last 5 years? (This isn't a prelude to ripping into you or taking the piss by the way - just an honest question)

[Headbanger]

If it was so good you would have to pass it before getting a licence and with the ACC having a big concern about biker deaths you would think they would be pushing
for it. All the supporters of it on here have said nothing about any positive aspect of it that is not assesed when a practical license test is taken that could save lives if it they were incorporated in the practical riding test. it sounds to me like a course that you would do if you wanted to get into racing.

Seriously?

Competence is the result of training and experience.....

Why the issue with people wanting to raise their competence?

In some areas I have only discovered how badly I have been doing things once I attended the training courses.

Having never once undertaken any motorcycle training, I'd say I'd have a lot to learn even with a couple of decades of bike ownership under my belt.

[Headbanger]

Just out of curiosity, have you done any formal training in (say) the last 5 years? (This isn't a prelude to ripping into you or taking the piss by the way - just an honest question)

You mean in reference to motorcycles?

Nope, never.

Feel free to rip away, Im good for it.

[AllanB]

Heck there is a 'system' now? It's not like those pyramid schemes is it where the rider at the pointy end gets all the goodies and the saps who come it late get to fall off?

I've been off the bike for a couple weeks (family hols) and I'll most likely hit that road tomorrow - it will start off casual, heat up, get loose then settle down again. Please don't video it!

[James Deuce]

If it was so good you would have to pass it before getting a licence and with the ACC having a big concern about biker deaths you would think they would be pushing
for it. All the supporters of it on here have said nothing about any positive aspect of it that is not assesed when a practical license test is taken that could save lives if it they were incorporated in the practical riding test. it sounds to me like a course that you would do if you wanted to get into racing.

Lol. The last thing any Government wants is a competent driver base. There is a firm belief in NZ that advanced training simply enables drivers and riders to travel at much greater speeds competently thereby making the accident bigger. IAM Roadcraft is based on UK Police roadcraft guidelines. It has substantial literature and practical guidelines thereby rendering it uninteresting to the LTNZ, particularly as its testing guidelines insist on independence from Government intervention thereby qualifying it as non-revenue raising advanced rider training.

Bear in mind that the economic impact of requiring that level of driver training in NZ would be huge as I'd estimate that 98% of the population is uninterested in learning anything about driving on the road in the midst of other other road users and of the remaining 2% who claim to be interested in advanced training, 98% of them are only interested supervised track days where they can come away making grandiose claims about their mad racing skills without ever actually experiencing competitive motorsport. The roads in NZ would be either largely empty or infested with unlicensed drivers as no Kiwi will take having their penis or vagina size relative to their driving skills questioned.

[Hawk]

hey muppet, next time you decided to post such a controversial topic please provide more popcorn for us thread lurkers especially if it goes so ot as this one has :shutup:

[Ocean1]

Lol. The last thing any Government wants is a competent driver base. There is a firm belief in NZ that advanced training simply enables drivers and riders to travel at much greater speeds competently thereby making the accident bigger. IAM Roadcraft is based on UK Police roadcraft guidelines. It has substantial literature and practical guidelines thereby rendering it uninteresting to the LTNZ, particularly as its testing guidelines insist on independence from Government intervention thereby qualifying it as non-revenue raising advanced rider training.

Bear in mind that the economic impact of requiring that level of driver training in NZ would be huge as I'd estimate that 98% of the population is uninterested in learning anything about driving on the road in the midst of other other road users and of the remaining 2% who claim to be interested in advanced training, 98% of them are only interested supervised track days where they can come away making grandiose claims about their mad racing skills without ever actually experiencing competitive motorsport. The roads in NZ would be either largely empty or infested with unlicensed drivers as no Kiwi will take having their penis or vagina size relative to their driving skills questioned.

Hit the nail nicely there dude.

And even without input from govt, (who are after all simply amplifying the public outrage at any rabble rousing by the press) you're still left with a compromise between productivity and safety.

And that's a road every safety authority in the country is hurtling down absolutely blinded by the fact that they don't have to consider the cost of compliance with anything safety related.

[Katman]

it sounds to me like a course that you would do if you wanted to get into racing.

Seriously man, nothing could be further from the truth.

[Blackbird]

You mean in reference to motorcycles?

Nope, never.

Feel free to rip away, Im good for it.

Nope, no ripping! Several of the other posters mentioned their dislike of introductions like "I've been riding for 38 years......". Not that I've use the phrase in that way but last year, I clocked up 50 years of riding. I reckon that I learned plenty in the first 5 years, narrowly survived them and almost certainly perpetuated the same bad habits from then until 2003 when owning a Blackbird really showed up my deficiencies. Took a 1 day advanced course in 2003 which showed up some serious shortcomings and I learned heaps. Trouble is, those skills fall away if they're not refreshed and I started falling into bad habits again. Bit the bullet in 2011 and joined IAM. Major ego damage to start with but the continuous nature of the Roadcraft coaching has done exactly what Rastuscat mentioned - made it totally subconscious. There's no doubt it's made me a better rider and has prolonged my riding career. This isn't a push for IAM as it won't suit everyone and riders have to make their own decisions. Just making the point that the average rider can lift their game by a big margin, even old farts like me with decent quality training!

[Howie]

I've been following this thread with a bit of interest as it grown into a discussion about "IAM" training and the Roadcraft system it is based on.

personally I believe any training can be positive if it is well researched and presented correctly.

on another note do the pdf downloads available here http://www.think.norfolk.gov.uk/motorcyclists/hugger-rider-skills-downloads give a reasonable introduction to what the Roadcraft principles used by "IAM" are about?

[James Deuce]

It's based on this.

http://www.roadcraft.co.uk/motorcycle-roadcraft

[Howie]

It's based on this.

http://www.roadcraft.co.uk/motorcycle-roadcraft

Which is what the downloads I pointed to are based on but give more detail

[Blackbird]

Can you actually describe what they said you were doing wrong and how they got you to correct? Or do you not want to give out advise for free that you had to pay for?

I won't because to get you to understand, I'd probably have to write a book and I'm still not sure whether you're just a troll. If you're genuine, look at the summary of these two blog posts which summarises part of my experience as they might help:

http://geoffjames.blogspot.co.nz/2011/04/advanced-riding-masterclass.html

http://geoffjames.blogspot.co.nz/2011/11/raising-my-riding-skills-some.html

I'd like to make the point again that I did it for me because I knew I had heaps to learn and wanted to improve - a totally personal thing. As I've said before, it won't suit everyone and I'm not a bloody evangelist. At present, IAM isn't taking on any more applicants in Wellington and the Auckland/Waikato region until the backlog of applicants ease but there may be vacancies in Canterbury. If you want your own skill base assessed, register your interest on the website (http://www.nz-iam.org.nz/) or simply go to a reputable commercial trainer in your area if you're serious about lifting your game. And seeing as this thread is so far off track from Muppet's intent, I've done my dash now - no more :laugh:

[James Deuce]

What Blackbird keeps failing to mention is that the assessment is FUN! Plus you'll probably know half the people you end up riding with anyway.

[skippa1]

If it was so good you would have to pass it before getting a licence and with the ACC having a big concern about biker deaths you would think they would be pushing
for it. All the supporters of it on here have said nothing about any positive aspect of it that is not assesed when a practical license test is taken that could save lives if it they were incorporated in the practical riding test. it sounds to me like a course that you would do if you wanted to get into racing.

Fuck you waffle on

[Big Dave]

Did he done a skid?

[James Deuce]

Would the economic cost of that training be offset by a far lower cost to ACC?

No. Because your driver population would be about a 10th of what it is now and our economy would fail. Ask anyone if they think they are a good driver and you will be told emphatically that their giant penis or vagina says they are. My claims that Kiwis are poor drivers, especially when the lack of traffic density is taken into account (Aucklanders do not know how good they have it compared to any European or North American connurbation) is usually roundly pooh-hooed on KB, but making a roadcraft style exam the entry point for license training would mean most people would fail because their mindset is simply not up for the postive, ongoing critical self-evaluation required to maintain and improve your standards, and most people simply lack the vehicle control standards required to pass the test, and more importantly can't see the point of learning things they won't use every day.

The cost of motorcycling related ACC claims is minuscule compared to DIY claims and falling over in the bath claims. Minuscule. Targeting motorcyclists is simply using divide and conquer to make a political point about funding ACC. There aren't enough motorcyclists to make a difference at election time but everybody knows a motorcyclist and therefore knows how dodgy motorcyclists are and they deserve everything they get. Because they're dodgy and crash all the time and lane-split and belong to gangs and are blue collar Tui drinking types.

IAM Roadcraft is not for eveyone and every call to the Government to increase driver standards significantly is met with the blanket comment that advanced driver training causes accidents.

Quite frankly I think there is some sort of economic benefit to death and mutilation on the road otherwise causing an accident or driving under the influence wouldn't be viewed as non-criminal and of a lesser concern than white-collar crime.

[Crasherfromwayback]

It is understandable that the police would do this course as they would have to demonstrate confidence in a pursute situation at speeds far higher than what most people who speed would feel safe getting up to eg 150km/hr plus.


Lolololololol. Fuck yeah! I'd never dream of going that fast! Those police people are fucking legends. Awesome stuff...made my day.

[Gremlin]

Or do you not want to give out advise for free that you had to pay for?
IAM NZ is a registered charity. Essentially, observers donate their time and money (in bike, running costs etc) and the idea is that when you're up to speed, you're passing on those skills and knowledge. There is a yearly membership fee (going up to $50 next year I think), and on initial joining, around $50 as a test fee (once off). Test fee goes to the examiner when they take you for your advanced test, contributes to their costs, and bearing in mind examiners, at least in NZ, are running their own businesses usually around road training (be it car, motorcycle, or combination). Membership fee usage varies, but pays for materials, events, that sort of thing.

Giving out advice is tricky when you don't understand the system, and as probably said, trying to deliver by words in a forum is extremely difficult, without digging into the theory, referencing the material and suddenly you're writing essays. Feedback to associates (those working up to test standard) is individual based on assessment of their riding. The more social monthly runs are tailored by observers based on the progress of the individual, their experience, ability, the weather conditions etc. Observers or Trainee Observers may take out multiple associates, swapping them around, giving each a go at the front, giving feedback, then more riding looking at the areas that are being worked on etc. If someone has urban riding nailed, then more time in the country working on those skills, or vice versa. All this work takes multiple rides, associates are expected to work on their riding between runs etc. For associates assigned to an Observer, there is constant work between between the two (or multiple associates, add in a Trainee Observer as well) and the monthly runs are also used to mix up Observers and associates.

ie, it's an ongoing process, not even close to once off. I think procedures are also being put in place to ensure those that have passed are regularly tested as well, to make sure standards are maintained, amongst Observers as well. Everyone is continually trying to be better, but having the skills to assess your own riding is obviously fantastic.

As for pursuit training, IAM doesn't exactly cater here, as we don't do 150kph. :laugh: However, forward observation, hazard identification etc are obviously vital skills. Not quite as relevant in NZ, but UK also makes extensive use of ambo bikes, and I think a couple of fire bikes have been trialed as well. In NZ, they're mostly used for events, where a bike can get through crowds far easier than a full blown ambo, but then you need medics with expertise in quite a few areas.

[ellipsis]

I've been following this thread with a bit of interest as it was just a nice heads up to a bloke who looked real comfortable and cruising within the limits and having a good time.


...<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Vo_0UXRY_rY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>...


...'lax out...eyes open...your brain is in control of the right hand...if it's not, then your life is in the lap of the gods...and other peoples...you just dont wanna miss a thing...

[rastuscat]

Fast, relative to what?



Yes, if you're comparing a modern sports bike to an ill handling commuter car, van or SUV. Put a well setup Nissan GTR or Mitsubishi Evo with a very good driver up against any bike, and the cars will be able to corner much faster, especially in real world conditions where the roads are rough and littered with debris.

I rode my 1200RT through the hills south of Wakefield last evening. ESA set for me, Mrs Cat and our luggage, and set to sports setting.

I was following one of the new orange SV6 marked patrol cars, driven by an ex Brit Popo Highway Cop. The car has the coolest suspension. He's an advanced driver, and he knew I was there follwing him. He's a mate, we stayed at his place last night.

We sat between 85 and 100 through about 30 km of twisties. I didnt have to try hard to keep up, and he told me later that he was trying to not brake, despite pushing it a bit.

I tried nor to brake too. Smoothe is the new fadt when Mrs Cat is onboard.

My 4 year old tourer with mid level power , two up and with full luggage competed well with a new (smelled new inside) sports pac SV6.

Bikes corner better than cars. They accelerate better out too. And are more fun too. IMHO.

Most cars dont handle like Godzillas or Evos.

[Howie]

...'lax out...eyes open...your brain is in control of the right hand...if it's not, then your life is in the lap of the gods...and other peoples...you just dont wanna miss a thing...


your point is? Yes the orginal thread was about someone out enjoying there ride. However So far as I can see from this thread The "IAM" riders are coming across as a secret society of arrogant motorcyclists that belong to a secret society. Do you have a secret wave??

[bogan]

If only 10% of the population could pass an IAMS test why are the other 90% not dying like flies on the road by your logic? Maybe just normal driving itself teaches most people what you guys need to do IAMS training for.

Most people think they are good enough, until they find out they are not...

I mean, if normal riding (this isn't fucking amateur hour, at least use the right name for it) taught for the IAMS test, then surely more than 10% would pass it :scratch:

[ellipsis]

your point is? Yes the orginal thread was about someone out enjoying there ride. However So far as I can see from this thread The "IAM" riders are coming across as a secret society of arrogant motorcyclists that belong to a secret society. Do you have a secret wave??


...lost yer mate...(I.am) on my own...last advanced riding skills I ever did was passing my forever licence that cost me a dollar and fifty cents in 1973*...I did read in the road code from back then that looking around the place gave you some situational awareness and advantage...just sayin...

*since then have had 41 years of inexperience to build on...

[Headbanger]

I rode my 1200RT through the hills south of Wakefield last evening. ESA set for me, Mrs Cat and our luggage, and set to sports setting.

I was following one of the new orange SV6 marked patrol cars, driven by an ex Brit Popo Highway Cop. The car has the coolest suspension. He's an advanced driver, and he knew I was there follwing him. He's a mate, we stayed at his place last night.

We sat between 85 and 100 through about 30 km of twisties. I didnt have to try hard to keep up, and he told me later that he was trying to not brake, despite pushing it a bit.

I tried nor to brake too. Smoothe is the new fadt when Mrs Cat is onboard.

My 4 year old tourer with mid level power , two up and with full luggage competed well with a new (smelled new inside) sports pac SV6.

Bikes corner better than cars. They accelerate better out too. And are more fun too. IMHO.

Most cars dont handle like Godzillas or Evos.

So neither of you were pushing it, and you stayed in visual proximity.

WOW.

:clap:

There is so much variance in car design, driver capabilities and intent that imo this could only be approached from a physics angle, and I'd have no idea how to do that.

I could get my old XF ute through the Parapara faster 20 years ago then I'd go through nowadays on my bike......

[ellipsis]

...i could get my Morris Oxford to move me quicker 35 years ago, than I do now...so they say...

[jasonu]

I rode my 1200RT through the hills south of Wakefield last evening. ESA set for me, Mrs Cat and our luggage, and set to sports setting.

I was following one of the new orange SV6 marked patrol cars, driven by an ex Brit Popo Highway Cop. The car has the coolest suspension. He's an advanced driver, and he knew I was there follwing him. He's a mate, we stayed at his place last night.

We sat between 85 and 100 through about 30 km of twisties. I didnt have to try hard to keep up, and he told me later that he was trying to not brake, despite pushing it a bit.

I tried nor to brake too. Smoothe is the new fadt when Mrs Cat is onboard.

My 4 year old tourer with mid level power , two up and with full luggage competed well with a new (smelled new inside) sports pac SV6.

Bikes corner better than cars. They accelerate better out too. And are more fun too. IMHO.

Most cars dont handle like Godzillas or Evos.

Sorry mate that doesn't sound like a competition. More like a couple of mates riding/driving at a good comfortable clip is about it.

[Howie]

...lost yer mate...(I.am) on my own...last advanced riding skills I ever did was passing my forever licence that cost me a dollar and fifty cents in 1973*...*since then have had 41 years of inexperience to build on...
Fair enough, i'm about the same although it was 79 so I'm only at 34 years of inexperience. Yep I do tend to observe as I ride it tends to give one more time to react in an appropriate way

[ellipsis]

Although he would never admit it I wonder if any corners were cut during that trip for it to be so smooth without braking.

...why ...

[James Deuce]

your point is? Yes the orginal thread was about someone out enjoying there ride. However So far as I can see from this thread The "IAM" riders are coming across as a secret society of arrogant motorcyclists that belong to a secret society. Do you have a secret wave??
Good Lord! I hope you aren't including me in with the IAM bunch. I'm arrogant of my own recognisance. I only wave to myself and it is generally with one finger.

[Katman]

I agree they think they are faster and safer riders than anyone else. There is a side of me that would be keen to take up their challenge of doing a course but I would not do it for the simple reason that i would never feel any safer on the road even if I got a 100% pass and as another poster correctly points out it would create a an overconfident sense in ability which maybe some graduates of the school may have after passing.


From what I know of the IAM system there would be very little likelihood of anyone taking part in it for the wrong reasons.

[rastuscat]

Sorry mate that doesn't sound like a competition. More like a couple of mates riding/driving at a good comfortable clip is about it.

You're right. It wasn't a competition. Just an honest comparison.

BTW these new coloured marked patrol cars are hard to see. Be careful.

[pritch]

BTW these new coloured marked patrol cars are hard to see. Be careful.

You may be right, they must be very hard to see. Certainly I have never seen a single one. :whistle:

[AllanB]

Mrs B has just told me I'll be hauling the trailer north soon on our second bite of family hols (apparently my gals need more shit than they took south last week!). Pisses me off the speed limit is 90 with a trailer...... cruise control will be set slightly higher, too allow for speedo error you understand officer.

I'll be sticking to my side of the road. You lot keep on yours please. ;)

[Gremlin]

Thanks for pointing out that hazard identification is a vital part of it although it is already something they assess you on in the practical license test anyway.
On that point, I actually disagree with the practical licence test. They specifically mention that inanimate objects on the road side are not a hazard. A hedge is a hazard, as it affects your visibility. A parked car in a driveway could have a child playing around it. Simple things like that.

Remember that IAM is not a replacement or used for the licence tests, it's only something you do after completing the licences, and have some experience under your belt.

There is no secret society, it was actually profiled in a recent copy (2013) of an NZ bike mag (I forget which). It's not in your face as we simply don't have the capacity to be inundated with requests (and the waiting list exists already). The aim is, in due course, to be more visible, but again, capacity. The standard will not be compromised, so it takes longer to get there, quality not quantity. For those that are interested (like I was) you find it if you're looking (or in my case, reading blogs of a couple of guys).

I think the number of people that have actually met the standard on first assessment has been very low, even UK riders that were police or IAM UK. Bear in mind that our road rules also differ, and this has an impact on the riding.

I can't imagine why you'd want simple instruction for a complex topic? Everything is broken down, one of the skills an Observer needs is to be able to pass on knowledge in a way that works for the associate. I can't really think of any situation I've seen where the feedback wasn't understood, and if it wasn't, then it's explained until it does. After all, everyone is there to help, work together etc. There is no impressing others, room for egos or showing off.

One of the key things when learning, is not to attempt everything at once. We start with basic elements, and once correct, work on the specifics, then pull it all together into the ride.

[nzspokes]

Thanks for pointing out that hazard identification is a vital part of it although it is already something they assess you on in the practical license test anyway. I will have a look at the links posted to see anything of interest I was not aware of in terms of bike riding. Hazard Identification was one thing I am aware of otherwise I would not have lasted this long riding. Not all hazards can be identified in advance anyway and that is the reason why such a course would not make me feel any safer than now.

After having done a short course with the head IAM guy, I can say there is no correlation between the license test and the IAM method. When riding in behind him with a headset on he was picking hazards constantly on a country road.

[roogazza]

I rode my 1200RT through the hills south of Wakefield last evening. ESA set for me, Mrs Cat and our luggage, and set to sports setting.

I was following one of the new orange SV6 marked patrol cars, driven by an ex Brit Popo Highway Cop. The car has the coolest suspension. He's an advanced driver, and he knew I was there follwing him. He's a mate, we stayed at his place last night.

We sat between 85 and 100 through about 30 km of twisties. I didnt have to try hard to keep up, and he told me later that he was trying to not brake, despite pushing it a bit.

I tried nor to brake too. Smoothe is the new fadt when Mrs Cat is onboard.

My 4 year old tourer with mid level power , two up and with full luggage competed well with a new (smelled new inside) sports pac SV6.

Bikes corner better than cars. They accelerate better out too. And are more fun too. IMHO.

Most cars dont handle like Godzillas or Evos.

I get what you are trying to convey there Rast.
I haven't read all of this thread and probably should have,( but it lost me when it got a bit agro and macho)
This IAM system for bike riding seems as far as I can see similar to the Hendon Police Driving System ? No ?
Now I'm going back to pre 1985, but in those days we modeled our Police driving standards partly on that system. Anticipation of Hazards, Ten to Two drive position, etc etc. The English system actually advised and we taught, straightening out a piece of road where you could see through, apex to apex !! I remember demonstrating that going over the Rimutukas here in Wgton.
I wonder what is taught nowdays ? I should one day go to the College and see for myself.

[R650R]

Mrs B has just told me I'll be hauling the trailer north soon on our second bite of family hols (apparently my gals need more shit than they took south last week!). Pisses me off the speed limit is 90 with a trailer...... cruise control will be set slightly higher, too allow for speedo error you understand officer.

I'll be sticking to my side of the road. You lot keep on yours please. ;)

Unfortunately many of our car trailers in NZ are primitive homebuilt stuff and often overloaded for either the trailer or the cars tow rating. I think it should never have been raised from 80 having witnessed a combination lose control and get dragged of the road backwards near Maramarua golf course SH2 narrowly avoiding a head on. I'd been following them since mway and nothing wrong with their driving, avg 80-85.
Then there was the twat in Hilux who tried to pass my b-train down hill, light load so was doing 90ish. He was doing 110 ish when he started to lose control, accelerated to try save it and doing about 120 when he got back in our lane. It was so ugly I think he would have been buying new seat covers and floor mats at Taupo...
I've just realised I've had 'driver training' back in my early days of linehaul. New employees got tested every 3 months, you then went to a 6, 12 or 24 month rating depending on what you took in. Basically the same stuff and maybe better as what we've seen in these vid links and the small nuggets some have released (why does it have to be a secret what you have learnt?).
We have a bad habit in NZ of only looking about two seconds ahead as that's what the roadcode recommends for safe following distance etc. It was drummed into me pretty quick in truck to be looking 12 seconds ahead looking for and planning for hazard situations. The instructors were great and we were told to drive as we normally did other wise the training/assesment was a waste, so if you needed to speed or be overloaded that was just part of business as usual in those days. Anyway a lot of that training transferred to bikes and cars so prob why I snub my nose at these basic acc courses as their probably entry level stuff dumbed down from what I've had.
The company also had covert driver assessment involving entrapment situations after 0800 complaints but that's a story for another day over a beer or two LOL...

[george formby]

I get what you are trying to convey there Rast.
I haven't read all of this thread and probably should have,( but it lost me when it got a bit agro and macho)
This IAM system for bike riding seems as far as I can see similar to the Hendon Police Driving System ? No ?
Now I'm going back to pre 1985, but in those days we modeled our Police driving standards partly on that system. Anticipation of Hazards, Ten to Two drive position, etc etc. The English system actually advised and we taught, straightening out a piece of road where you could see through, apex to apex !! I remember demonstrating that going over the Rimutukas here in Wgton.
I wonder what is taught nowdays ? I should one day go to the College and see for myself.

That is what I spent a weekend doing a bajillion years ago in blighty. Taught lots of cool things like "making progress", using the throttle to stay in space, "stopping in the distance you can see to be clear" even using the wrong lane through a corner if your chasing bad guys. You were marked down for being to slow or not using space on the road efficiently (filtering....).

[MVnut]

On that point, I actually disagree with the practical licence test. They specifically mention that inanimate objects on the road side are not a hazard. A hedge is a hazard, as it affects your visibility. A parked car in a driveway could have a child playing around it. Simple things like that.

Remember that IAM is not a replacement or used for the licence tests, it's only something you do after completing the licences, and have some experience under your belt.

There is no secret society, it was actually profiled in a recent copy (2013) of an NZ bike mag (I forget which). It's not in your face as we simply don't have the capacity to be inundated with requests (and the waiting list exists already). The aim is, in due course, to be more visible, but again, capacity. The standard will not be compromised, so it takes longer to get there, quality not quantity. For those that are interested (like I was) you find it if you're looking (or in my case, reading blogs of a couple of guys).

I think the number of people that have actually met the standard on first assessment has been very low, even UK riders that were police or IAM UK. Bear in mind that our road rules also differ, and this has an impact on the riding.

I can't imagine why you'd want simple instruction for a complex topic? Everything is broken down, one of the skills an Observer needs is to be able to pass on knowledge in a way that works for the associate. I can't really think of any situation I've seen where the feedback wasn't understood, and if it wasn't, then it's explained until it does. After all, everyone is there to help, work together etc. There is no impressing others, room for egos or showing off.

One of the key things when learning, is not to attempt everything at once. We start with basic elements, and once correct, work on the specifics, then pull it all together into the ride.

There is a big difference between a hazard and an inanimate object that may conceal a hazard

[MVnut]

Did he done a skid?

Dont think he dunna skid, nowhere does it mention he dunna skid

[dangerous]

man... this is more like a bloody old ladies knitting club, has KB become this or was it always and Ive turned into a grumpy old ginger prick, ohh wait... I always was. These topics used to only get as far south as the bombays.

You road edge debri girls... what do ya do when you get to road works or a shingle road??? get off and push!
When people say 'to the road edge" I thats I dont think they mean to the farking grass verge... left hand tyre track perhaps aye.

Muppit ya muppit, yeah I know we have had our differances, but ya right about the triple R's lines. I promote similer lines cos with out seeing the vid I cant really comment as we all have different ideas of 'safe' or lines.
I believe in 'late apex' learnt this years ago on the track, so race lines and road lines can be mixed to get a ideal line... REMEMBER what works for me may not for another, we all have our ideas, basicly right hander sit in the left tyre track, lefties sit in the right tyre track, I have had many a sucess with rider coaching one girl is now suceeding in the Aussie SBK, not saying that is all my doing.

mupet says, the triple R was fast, Cesna says fast if dangerous... so is walking, best ya stay at home, no wait the ceiling might fall in.

Well I only reed the 1st 2 pages duno what else was said in 12 pages... might go hooning 75, come chase me Mupet... if the bitch of a thing starts.


PS: you debri worry worts... whose the boss you or ya bike?
if ya get cought up in shit take charge (altho ya should have never not been in charge) and ride out of it, bike goes were you tell it.

[Ender EnZed]

I rode my 1200RT through the hills south of Wakefield last evening. ESA set for me, Mrs Cat and our luggage, and set to sports setting.

I was following one of the new orange SV6 marked patrol cars, driven by an ex Brit Popo Highway Cop. The car has the coolest suspension. He's an advanced driver, and he knew I was there follwing him. He's a mate, we stayed at his place last night.

We sat between 85 and 100 through about 30 km of twisties. I didnt have to try hard to keep up, and he told me later that he was trying to not brake, despite pushing it a bit.

I tried nor to brake too. Smoothe is the new fadt when Mrs Cat is onboard.

My 4 year old tourer with mid level power , two up and with full luggage competed well with a new (smelled new inside) sports pac SV6.

Bikes corner better than cars. They accelerate better out too. And are more fun too. IMHO.

Most cars dont handle like Godzillas or Evos.

Bikes have a shit load more engine braking than cars. He was trying not to brake which limited his useable rate of deceleration to much less than yours. If he was making a conscious effort to keep it under 100 as well then he'd need to be letting off the throttle much earlier than you every time it was necessary. Hardly a fair comparison when actually driving the car would see it slowing down faster than most bikes.

I would have thought that in a pursuit situation in town with short straights and lots of intersections that need to be seen to be clear before proceeding through then an SV6 would be so much faster you wouldn't be able to see him after the 3rd corner.

[george formby]

man... this is more like a bloody old ladies knitting club, has KB become this or was it always and Ive turned into a grumpy old ginger prick, ohh wait... I always was. These topics used to only get as far south as the bombays.

You road edge debri girls... what do ya do when you get to road works or a shingle road??? get off and push!
When people say 'to the road edge" I thats I dont think they mean to the farking grass verge... left hand tyre track perhaps aye.

Muppit ya muppit, yeah I know we have had our differances, but ya right about the triple R's lines. I promote similer lines cos with out seeing the vid I cant really comment as we all have different ideas of 'safe' or lines.
I believe in 'late apex' learnt this years ago on the track, so race lines and road lines can be mixed to get a ideal line... REMEMBER what works for me may not for another, we all have our ideas, basicly right hander sit in the left tyre track, lefties sit in the right tyre track, I have had many a sucess with rider coaching one girl is now suceeding in the Aussie SBK, not saying that is all my doing.

mupet says, the triple R was fast, Cesna says fast if dangerous... so is walking, best ya stay at home, no wait the ceiling might fall in.

Well I only reed the 1st 2 pages duno what else was said in 12 pages... might go hooning 75, come chase me Mupet... if the bitch of a thing starts.


PS: you debri worry worts... whose the boss you or ya bike?
if ya get cought up in shit take charge (altho ya should have never not been in charge) and ride out of it, bike goes were you tell it.

I tried so hard to avoid par taking of this thread but. Yeah.

[BigAl]

man... this is more like a bloody old ladies knitting club, has KB become this or was it always and Ive turned into a grumpy old ginger prick, ohh wait... I always was. These topics used to only get as far south as the bombays.

You road edge debri girls... what do ya do when you get to road works or a shingle road??? get off and push!
When people say 'to the road edge" I thats I dont think they mean to the farking grass verge... left hand tyre track perhaps aye.

Muppit ya muppit, yeah I know we have had our differances, but ya right about the triple R's lines. I promote similer lines cos with out seeing the vid I cant really comment as we all have different ideas of 'safe' or lines.
I believe in 'late apex' learnt this years ago on the track, so race lines and road lines can be mixed to get a ideal line... REMEMBER what works for me may not for another, we all have our ideas, basicly right hander sit in the left tyre track, lefties sit in the right tyre track, I have had many a sucess with rider coaching one girl is now suceeding in the Aussie SBK, not saying that is all my doing.

mupet says, the triple R was fast, Cesna says fast if dangerous... so is walking, best ya stay at home, no wait the ceiling might fall in.

Well I only reed the 1st 2 pages duno what else was said in 12 pages... might go hooning 75, come chase me Mupet... if the bitch of a thing starts.


PS: you debri worry worts... whose the boss you or ya bike?
if ya get cought up in shit take charge (altho ya should have never not been in charge) and ride out of it, bike goes were you tell it.

Right on the button dangerous. now ladies knit one, pearl one.....

[Crasherfromwayback]

Bikes corner better than cars. They accelerate better out too. And are more fun too. IMHO.

Most cars dont handle like Godzillas or Evos.

Sorry can't agree with you there. Most semi modern even semi sporty cars can go round corners faster than most motorcycles. They don't have to be full on race reps to do so. But if they are really full on...a bike won't see which way one goes through twisty bits sorry.

[Hads]

I was riding an orange bike back from Akaroa that day, not a triple R though, nor am I a great rider.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I was riding an orange bike back from Akaroa that day, not a triple R though, nor am I a great rider.

But did you enjoy the ride? THE most important bit!

[jasonu]

Sorry can't agree with you there. Most semi modern even semi sporty cars can go round corners faster than most motorcycles. They don't have to be full on race reps to do so. But if they are really full on...a bike won't see which way one goes through twisty bits sorry.

Tru dat sista!

[Crasherfromwayback]

Tru dat sista!

Yep. Learnt that lesson in person a while ago...and I like having the odd quick punt from time to time.

[Hads]

But did you enjoy the ride? THE most important bit!

Yeah, it was a good ride, just took it easy on the downhill.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah, it was a good ride, just took it easy on the downhill.

And there you have it. It's how it should be. You're happy at your speed...the geezer in the op was prob doing likewise. Fuck everyone else and their opinions.

[dangerous]

took it easy on the downhill.ya what... with a old battleship like mine ya make the best of a downhill, only way to get any kinda speed up, best part LOL... speaking of which, everone off 75 the roads all mine ;)

[Big Dave]

Dont think he dunna skid, nowhere does it mention he dunna skid

No skid - no cred. It's the craw.


'You don't speak good english like what I do.' Wise, E. c1970.

[Robbo]

And there you have it. It's how it should be. You're happy at your speed...the geezer in the op was prob doing likewise. Fuck everyone else and their opinions.

Great post Pete, could'nt agree more :niceone:

[pritch]

Sorry can't agree with you there. Most semi modern even semi sporty cars can go round corners faster than most motorcycles. They don't have to be full on race reps to do so. But if they are really full on...a bike won't see which way one goes through twisty bits sorry.

Interesting. I suppose I could punt the Subaru over Mt Messenger on a stop watch, then come home and get the bike and do it again. Have the feeling I'd be braver in the car though.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Interesting. I suppose I could punt the Subaru over Mt Messenger on a stop watch, then come home and get the bike and do it again. Have the feeling I'd be braver in the car though.

Well if you look at an F1 car...it's a fair bit slower in acceleration than a Moto GP bike. But it slaughters it lap times wise. So the same applies to road cars/bikes but on a lesser scale.

[Muppet]

man... this is more like a bloody old ladies knitting club, has KB become this or was it always and Ive turned into a grumpy old ginger prick, ohh wait... I always was. These topics used to only get as far south as the bombays.

You road edge debri girls... what do ya do when you get to road works or a shingle road??? get off and push!
When people say 'to the road edge" I thats I dont think they mean to the farking grass verge... left hand tyre track perhaps aye.

Muppit ya muppit, yeah I know we have had our differances, but ya right about the triple R's lines. I promote similer lines cos with out seeing the vid I cant really comment as we all have different ideas of 'safe' or lines.
I believe in 'late apex' learnt this years ago on the track, so race lines and road lines can be mixed to get a ideal line... REMEMBER what works for me may not for another, we all have our ideas, basicly right hander sit in the left tyre track, lefties sit in the right tyre track, I have had many a sucess with rider coaching one girl is now suceeding in the Aussie SBK, not saying that is all my doing.

mupet says, the triple R was fast, Cesna says fast if dangerous... so is walking, best ya stay at home, no wait the ceiling might fall in.

Well I only reed the 1st 2 pages duno what else was said in 12 pages... might go hooning 75, come chase me Mupet... if the bitch of a thing starts.


PS: you debri worry worts... whose the boss you or ya bike?
if ya get cought up in shit take charge (altho ya should have never not been in charge) and ride out of it, bike goes were you tell it.

Ha! You're a good bastard really, Rastus' told me, so it must be true. The chap I was following was simply smooth and fast. He wasn't going flat out and taking risks. By sticking to (an obvious) system of cornering on every corner he/she made ground on me. They left the turning until as late as possible, didn't touch the brakes as they were in the correct gear and accelerated out of the corners at a constant rate. Maybe it was Keith Code on Holiday? I'm stunned how I simply praise a guys riding and it causes a right kerfuffle!

As far as this staying to the left for a right hand bend, for example, lark goes, I saw a very graphic example of why this is a good idea a while ago. Akzle I'm using big words here so pay attention!

I was on the back of an instructors bike in the north island and we were going through the Pahiatua track. The instructor rode like our friend on the Street Triple R. He rode at a gear higher than me, 20 km/h faster than me and was 500 mm further to the left/right than me in corners, he also accelerated out corners HARD and used clutchless up shifts. All while listening to his MP3 player and radioing to the others on the course and cracking jokes with me. I shat myself, thinking we were going to die and had planned how I would dive roll off the bike if we binned it. I'm not kidding.

Well, we came upon a right hand downhill corner and were mm from the fog line when one of the others decided to hug the centre line. Nek minite he hit a patch of gravel in the centre of the road. Since a car was coming towards him at the time, he had no choice but to hit the gravel. He fell off and slid for some distance, while his bike slid then flipped into the air landing upside down. Words like "shit" & "fuck" came out of my mouth. We were able to stop 10 metres short of where he ended up, simply because we were a metre further to the left and saw the gravel way before he did.

During the ride, when we got stuck behind traffic and the guys riding one up asked us if we'd like them to pull over so we could catch up, the instructor said "No you keep going I'll be with you in a few minutes". I thought "Oh for fucksakes" and went through my dive roll escape plan again. This guy was simply smooth and fast and consistent with every corner, I'll never forget what I learnt in the few hours it took to ride from Ohakea to Wellington that day.

The End.

PS when we eventually rode through the Rimutaka's in the wet, he didn't change a thing about his riding or slow down, managed to avoid a number of oil spills as a result.

[Katman]

If you had to sacrifice a bit of corner speed or cornering position, which would it be?

[george formby]

If you had to sacrifice a bit of corner speed or cornering position, which would it be?

Shirley you adjust a bit of one to get a better other as conditions or circumstances dictate?

[caseye]

Speed mate, you can always get it back on the next one and you don't end up dead.

[Muppet]

Speed mate, you can always get it back on the next one and you don't end up dead.

Well said and I agree.

[Katman]

Shirley you adjust a bit of one to get a better other as conditions or circumstances dictate?

I'm asking which would you sacrifice first - the wide cornering position (which gives maximum visibility throughout the corner but places you in a position of increased risk) or sacrifice a few kilometers an hour throughout the corner to increase your ability to react in time to an unexpected development (all the while maintaining a position that gives you far greater options in the event that avoidance is necessary)?

[george formby]

(all the while maintaining a position that gives you far greater options in the event that avoidance is necessary)?

I would adjust my speed accordingly to achieve the above.

Not sure why the wide line into corners is being vilified. I understand it to be maximising my observation to maximise my reaction time & options should I come across a hazard in a bend. Or more pertinently coming into a bend.

My trip to work is 17 km's of twisties with an 80 kmh speed limit. Reduced from 100 kmh because of accidents......

Every single trip to work will have oncoming traffic crossing the white line, including heavy vehicles, coaches, camper vans & Audis. Often I will come across broken down vehicles, single wheel boat trailers or whatever, taking up half their lane in a corner. The road surface has the whole Smorgasboard of NZ conditions, from the loosest to the smoothest. Most of Auckland has been up here for the last two weeks which makes it really exciting.

My average speed is higher than most of the traffic on the road, might even be considered "fast" compared to other traffic.

But yet. I can do pretty much the whole road at the speed limit without touching the brakes, if I do have to use the brakes it's just that, I slow down or come to a stop if I have to. All because of road position & observation. I do exactly the same thing in the van!

I'm firmly in the maximum observation & appropriate action camp. Staying in the same part of your lane through a corner is not what bikes are built for.

[Ocean1]

If you had to sacrifice a bit of corner speed or cornering position, which would it be?

If your riding at the speed you've decided is OK for the corner and you're on the line you've decided is OK then why the fuck would you be wanting to sacrifice anything.

The fact is there's a correct speed for each line, and having established both approaching any given corner why would you assume anyone would want to change either?

[Katman]

Not sure why the wide line into corners is being vilified.

I'm talking about maintaining a wide line right throughout the corner - not just until a tip in point.

[george formby]

I'm talking about maintaining a wide line right throughout the corner - not just until a tip in point.

Yeah, I don't get that, don't do it & have never come across it as an advanced riding technique.

It's a habit I had to work with my girl friend on, I would be heading for the left of my lane, getting out of Dodge & she would still be out close to the white line in the face of oncoming traffic, right were the wannabes dive across the white line. EEK.:shit:
So yeah, apexing, vanishing points, plain old fashioned caution & car v bike contacts were much discussed & the first two practiced to avoid the fourth.
She's good now, always heading away from trouble.

It's been said in this thread that advanced training will give a rider a feeling of being bullet proof. IMHE it's just the opposite, makes you realise how vulnerable you really are.

[AllanB]

Feck what a load of ..........

Somewhere sometime decades ago when I started riding I was told/read to always look well ahead through the corner and be aware of intersections, gravel, etc etc - do they not teach this basic shit from day dot anymore?

Funny note - on that stretch of road you will often see a lot of knee-down antics at very moderate speeds requiring nothing of the sort. Gives me a giggle. Especially if I'm sitting upright and running up their arse mid corner! Maybe I'm just too lazy to move off the seat unless hammering it ........

Mind you, you also see some serious speed by some riders. And my big bug-bear - motorcycles passing on blind corners. Fuck that shit.

Oh add to your rising skills this: before you do that late pre-corner passing manoeuvre consider this - will you make it if another rider is doing the same at speed coming the other way?

[Gremlin]

If you had to sacrifice a bit of corner speed or cornering position, which would it be?
Difficult question to answer without context. There is no riding by rote, you have a set of skills and apply them to every situation.

Technically speaking, you shouldn't need to sacrifice any speed from your current, if you have assessed the corner/situation/whatever, and I'd expect to sacrifice position on any corner should circumstances dictate (and it happens often).

IAM isn't about maintaining a wide line throughout every corner, however, there will be situations where it applies, ie, two lefts or rights in a row. The wide line is maintained for observation (subject to safety as always) until the exit of the corner is established (vanishing point).

[rastuscat]

I have kept up with this thread, as Muppet is known to me. I try to ride proper lines at all times, just coz it keeps me thinking.

Today I was riding in 30 to 40 knots of sidewind, and trying to maintain a decent line was bloody near impossible.

Like, you set yourself up for a left hander by meandering over to the right, and then the wind blows you all the way back to the LHS of the lane.

Bugger. Must remember not to rely too much on the Hendon thingy, especially when survival depends on keeping a very large safety margin.

[george formby]

I have kept up with this thread, as Muppet is known to me. I try to ride proper lines at all times, just coz it keeps me thinking.

Today I was riding in 30 to 40 knots of sidewind, and trying to maintain a decent line was bloody near impossible.

Like, you set yourself up for a left hander by meandering over to the right, and then the wind blows you all the way back to the LHS of the lane.

Bugger. Must remember not to rely too much on the Hendon thingy, especially when survival depends on keeping a very large safety margin.

I was on a road t'other day which tied me in knots for a whole host of reasons. Ended up just being a nana & riding a few metres at a time. T'was challenging to say the least.

The further you lean the less the wind affects you. Standing the bike up for the next corner is where it gets ya.

[jasonu]

The fact from what you have said is you thought he was going to crash with you on the back and it may just be sheer luck rather than his "Expertise" he didn't.
I dont know about other riders but whenever I have carried a pillion I have always been more cautious than when I am on my own. This guy obviously wasnt
based on what you have said.

From what I have read here I sure as shit would not want to ride pillion with you.

[raftn]

I agree they think they are faster and safer riders than anyone else. There is a side of me that would be keen to take up their challenge of doing a course but I would not do it for the simple reason that i would never feel any safer on the road even if I got a 100% pass and as another poster correctly points out it would create a an overconfident sense in ability which maybe some graduates of the school may have after passing.

The supporters of IAMS on here have failed in my opinion to sell any benefit of it over what is taught in the road code. A rider group that they could possibly interest
is the mid life crisis biker who has not ridden for 20-30 years to assess where they are at in riding ability and how to regain the lost skills they had.

Another problem with their training methods from what some of them have said is their teaching methods are not simple based on the comment one of them made
which could be a turn off for many. I find their comment about continuous improvement hard to understand like do they really ride to work "Better" each day than the day before?????

Your ignorance, stupidity, and attitude to a proven system of advanced road craft is impressive.

[GTRMAN]

I'm talking about maintaining a wide line right throughout the corner - not just until a tip in point.

This would be an excellent question to discuss with your observer.

[Madness]

BTW I have toured on an XL500 in side winds and your heavy BMW would be a piece of cake in comparison.

I'd have thought the complete opposite myself, fully-faired bikes can be an absolute bastard in gusty cross-winds. Big wide bars, an upright position and no fairings on an XL500 would be a piece of cake, in fact what could be better?

[Muppet]

The fact from what you have said is you thought he was going to crash with you on the back and it may just be sheer luck rather than his "Expertise" he didn't.
I dont know about other riders but whenever I have carried a pillion I have always been more cautious than when I am on my own. This guy obviously wasnt
based on what you have said.

There was no luck in his riding. He was able to go around corners faster and smoother than I could simply because his position on the road was better. You weren't there I was.

[Robbo]

I'd have thought the complete opposite myself, fully-faired bikes can be an absolute bastard in gusty cross-winds. Big wide bars, an upright position and no fairings on an XL500 would be a piece of cake, in fact what could be better?


You are absolutely correct Madness. I have a fully faired Trophy and it is quite a handfull in both high and cross winds. I also had an XL500 back in the early 80's ind did'nt have problems riding in cross winds with that or my naked Bonnie for that matter.
It would appear that having 38 years riding experience and an ego bigger than your ability gives one the right to criticise all others and think that you are gods gift to motorcycling. Perhaps this person should sell his pushbike and buy a real motorbike.:mad:

[Big Dave]

I think generally nekkids are better in Palmy type winds.

The 1200 Trophy is also particularly prone to cross wind discomfort compared to a Connie 14 or FJR1300 for eg.

>>ego bigger than your ability gives one the right to criticise all others and think that you are god's gift to motorcycling. <<

I already have that job.

[ellipsis]

I'd have thought the complete opposite myself, fully-faired bikes can be an absolute bastard in gusty cross-winds. Big wide bars, an upright position and no fairings on an XL500 would be a piece of cake, in fact what could be better?


... fuck yeah, totally...down at Motukarara, on HW75 where the winds from either sth or nth can be horrendous, my wife and I have to nearly hang off our Goldwing in those conditions, like we were sailing a two manned yacht, tacking for all it's worth...

[dangerous]

The fact from what you have said is you thought he was going to crash with you on the back and it may just be sheer luck rather than his "Expertise" he didn't.
I dont know about other riders but whenever I have carried a pillion I have always been more cautious than when I am on my own. This guy obviously wasnt
based on what you have said.

ohhh... I read it that Mupet had full trust in his rider, I dont know many if any riders that are happy as larry as pilion.
"this guy" sounds like he was cautious, again i read that he rode well and similer to myself, sheer luck had nothing t do with it cos Im thinking Muppet aint so silly as to clime on the back of a bike he does not trust... I think you are just picking holes for the hell of it

[Katman]

This would be an excellent question to discuss with your observer.

I've spoken at length with my observer about it.

[dangerous]

Today I was riding in 30 to 40 knots of sidewind, and trying to maintain a decent line was bloody near impossible.
Like, you set yourself up for a left hander by meandering over to the right, and then the wind blows you all the way back to the LHS of the lane.
Bugger. Must remember not to rely too much on the Hendon thingy, especially when survival depends on keeping a very large safety margin.more speed rastus... well I tend to ride quicker in the wind as to become more aerodyamic, AND very important to be down a gear or two and have the reves up, more internal innurther, stress the bike so as its not all limp in the wind, and quicker and easier to add more speed to pull out of a side gust.

A mate did the same streach on the 3rd, she was ok when moving (675 daytona) as above faster = easier (not in every situation ok people) she had to stop for a over turned caravan and as she slowed was nearly blowen over, stoped and 'was' blowen over, was a nice new paint job.



speaking of which, everone off 75 the roads all mine ;)LOL... well most of ya's listened, guy on a black gixer seemed to get a bit peaved when we passed him... now if ya wana ride slow thats cool by me... BUT move the fuck over and let others past or ya end up with the situation we had.

[Madness]

If you now think he was so good how come you had any fear of him crashing? A responsible rider would never ride in such a way as to create a fear of crashing in their pillion
but maybe this is missing from the IAMS manual.

Was your new-years resolution to become an internet troll? I can understand the appeal, it can be rewarding and strangely satisfying at times. Take it from me though, you need practice, lots of practice.

Did Muppet mention he's involved with IAM? I read something different from his reference to the training situation he described, but don't let that stop you in your on-going rant.

Oh, btw, it is IAM. Iams make cat food.

[ellipsis]

...as funny as this shit is getting and with dangerous now getting technical, maybe Cassina, you could now move your stuff over to Smokeys , Cornering Lines thread...someone is needed over there to sort it out for them...and we can all agree with Muppet that, yes, indeed, it is nice to be out for a cruise and see someone that makes it all look easy, and feel like complimenting them...I do it sometimes myself...

[Gremlin]

A few other posters have pointed out deficiantcies with it too in respect to how safe cornering is promoted
I suppose I can try one more reply. Naturally everyone is free to their own opinion, and has already been stated, it's not for everyone.

I started looking for something (finding IAM) as people would tell me I'm a good rider, but my question was, how are they qualified to comment? They could be terrible, so obviously I would look good in comparison. Same applies here, while people can comment, those with a qualified opinion are those that should be listened to, I mean, would you follow the advice of a random on the street? Now, I'm not getting into some argument or slagging off others in the thread, I'm simply pointing out you seem to ignore the advice contrary to your view, and hold gospel on those that agree with your view, and you disregard qualification.

Irrespective of opinion, the IAM approach is independent, measurable, internationally recognised and based on UK police instruction, who have high standards and class their drivers in pursuit status. The higher the class the driver holds, the more driver training they've had, the more they've worked and the more responsibility they hold. NZ in comparison requires officers to have attended an advanced driving training course, as I understand, nothing more specific? I consider the UK approach to produce real quality, but hey, let's have an opinion, based on no fact, and consider it better??

[Madness]

I rest my argument

Hallelujah!

[Headbanger]

http://youtu.be/qN-_cZNDy0w

[Madness]

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3452370176/hDA046259/

[GTRMAN]

I have noticed the debate in this thread over cornering lines and I noticed in that debate the IAMS method was attacked for placing the rider in the direct path of anything coming the other way over the centre line. For your interest I agree with those who said it can be road/traffic dependent so would be anti IAMs on that too. I may have admired the fast riding of the guy poster 1 was
admiring too but the differnce is I would not have called it safe as well. If fast riding was safe there would be no need for crash barriers on race tracks would there?

IAMS is a cat food, the I.A.M. is the Institute of Advanced Motorists. If you are going to bag something at least have the decency to name it correctly.

[jasonu]

Thats odd that your training school would leave something like how to handle side winds out of the sylabus. The schools don't teach everything eh despite what some claim on here. BTW I have toured on an XL500 in side winds and your heavy BMW would be a piece of cake in comparison.

You are a fucking motorbike legend:Punk::Punk::Punk: Rock on Sista!!!

[Kickaha]

If fast riding was safe there would be no need for crash barriers on race tracks would there?

They're for the protection of spectators more than anything else

Some people are damgerous at any speed, just because you're fast doesn't mean you're unsafe despite what the whole "speed kills" message tries to get across

[Grubber]

I have noticed the debate in this thread over cornering lines and I noticed in that debate the IAMS method was attacked for placing the rider in the direct path of anything coming the other way over the centre line. For your interest I agree with those who said it can be road/traffic dependent so would be anti IAMs on that too. I may have admired the fast riding of the guy poster 1 was
admiring too but the differnce is I would not have called it safe as well. If fast riding was safe there would be no need for crash barriers on race tracks would there?

Seriously.
Race tracks, we are talking about 200+kph side by side in competition, not bloody 110kph on open road.
Can you seriously not see the difference.
I'm really not sure that all of your 34 years or whatever it is has taught you anything about common sense.:brick:

[SMOKEU]

If you now think he was so good how come you had any fear of him crashing? A responsible rider would never ride in such a way as to create a fear of crashing in their pillion
but maybe this is missing from the IAMS manual.

A non rider, or relatively inexperienced rider, will often wrongly perceive a comparatively safe maneuver as a particularly dangerous one, especially when on the back of a bike. I too would be scared on the back of any bike, regardless of the rider since I haven't been on the back of a bike since I was a child and I'm not used to the feeling of not being in control while being on a bike.


NZ in comparison requires officers to have attended an advanced driving training course, as I understand, nothing more specific? I consider the UK approach to produce real quality, but hey, let's have an opinion, based on no fact, and consider it better??

NZ Police officers are rated with either a bronze, silver or gold rating. IIRC, only gold rated officers are allowed to pursue other vehicles. I'm sure there will be an officer along here to correct me soon enough if I'm wrong.

[ckai]

I have noticed the debate in this thread over cornering lines and I noticed in that debate the IAMS method was attacked for placing the rider in the direct path of anything coming the other way over the centre line. For your interest I agree with those who said it can be road/traffic dependent so would be anti IAMs on that too. I may have admired the fast riding of the guy poster 1 was
admiring too but the differnce is I would not have called it safe as well. If fast riding was safe there would be no need for crash barriers on race tracks would there?

Quick question, so hopefully I can clear up my idea of the stance you take about relative speed and corning. You're going around a 65km/h corner. From what I've read and what I understand, you would take that corner at 65 as that has been deemed the safe speed and anything over that would be unsafe. This is what the government tells us. I believe this is your stance, no?

Same corner, Mr World MotoGP Champion clearly would go faster than you around that corner. Because who is going faster, you're saying he is unsafe because he is going faster than what has been deemed safe by the government. Is this right?

Oh yeah sorry, let's eliminate one variable, you're both on the same bike.

If there was gravel on the same corner, Mr Champion would handle that gravel considerably better than you, even though he was travelling at what you deem an unsafe speed. I'm not doubting your ability, I just know your ability, including your reaction time, isn't as good as his.

From this simple experiment we can conclude:

Someone is not unsafe by how fast they travel but their ability to travel at a certain speed. We're not talking about perceived ability either. Actual ability.

And for the record, advance training does not produce over confident riders/drivers. Over confidence is instilled in the mindset before training ever begins. Most of the time this is trained out of you, eventually. Some will never change though. Fact of life.

I have had advance training. A good chunk. I will do more. I am more aware of my ability. I do not ride faster on the road because of this. I ride slower (or so it feels). I am the like the majority who do advance training.

Now where the fuck are the keys for the Trumpy?

[george formby]

Another thing that has been overlooked in this debate is that some bikes can be safer than others for certain roads so no matter how much riding school training a rider has had if they are on the wrong bike for the type of riding they want to do their level of safety is going to be compromised.

For what its worth the claim made by another poster that the Govt sees advanced rider training schools creating a overconfident attitude I feel is proven by the attitude of IAMS supporters in this thread.

Can you expand on your bold statement Cassina?


I think you may be confusing rider confidence in the training with riders confidence in ability re IAM's. I'm trying to improve my road riding ability & the more I learn the more cautious I become but the more I enjoy riding.

A training weekend with CSS may have a different effect for some riders.

[SMOKEU]

Someone is not unsafe by how fast they travel but their ability to travel at a certain speed. We're not talking about perceived ability either. Actual ability.


Best post so far! If only the government understood that...

[bogan]

So you think speed limits on bends are just made up by the Govt then well I bet you are wrong as it is often stated in the media that speed limits are made as a result of the number of crashes on those bends so they are hardly made up as you think. You have to remember most motorists can not possibly afford a Porsche or a bike tuned for high speed cornering hence the reason why the limit stated may be less than what you can do safely on your sports bike which in my opinion have a safety deficiantcy in themselves in that your periferel vision
is limited by the lower bars. My argument is no matter how safe the IAMS guys think they can corner there is a safety trade off in stopping/slowing down time which is something they are not prepaired to agree with. It was another poster that claimed advanced riding instruction would create overconfidence and as I said reading the posts from the IAMS guys do give me that impression

Take a look behind you next time you go around a 65kmhr bend at 65 on the nose, the horse and cart who will be right on your tail afterwards should tell you all you need to know about government speed ratings.

A guy who is aware of their own limits and ride to them is much more safe than one riding to somebody else's limits with no fucking clue of their own.

[Headbanger]

So you think speed limits on bends are just made up by the Govt then well I bet you are wrong as it is often stated in the media that speed limits are made as a result of the number of crashes on those bends so they are hardly made up as you think.


I believe the yellow speed signs are a recommendation, and only trucks are required to adhere to the posted limit.

And its not very pro-active to wait until a few people crash to put in a control, I'm lead to believe that initially the engineers had a car fitted with a device that measured the forces the vehicle was put under while going through the corner (and I believe it was as simple as a marble in a curved slot).

I'd assume that nowadays they could simply calculate the number based on the radius and the camber during the design stage.

I have no reference for any of this......

edit-Tool is called a ball-bank

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=ball+bank+indicator&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=l-fJUt7FJcnFkwXx-YHIDg&sqi=2&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1358&bih=813

[Headbanger]

Info.

http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/1548/1/12599196_LTNZ-226-CurveAdvSpds.pdf

[iranana]

I don't really get what's going on in this thread, and it's way too long to read, but...


So you think speed limits on bends are just made up by the Govt then well I bet you are wrong as it is often stated in the media that speed limits are made as a result of the number of crashes on those bends so they are hardly made up as you think.

Pretty sure some of them must be, or they were established at a time when most vehicles were heavy, had shitty brakes, no seatbelts and no power steering. There use to be this corner on the road to Piha that was marked at 35 or something, but you could comfortably hit it at 80. Since then they've bumped it up a bit to something like 65...


A guy who is aware of their own limits and ride to them is much more safe than one riding to somebody else's limits with no fucking clue of their own.

I agree, mostly.

[Madness]

I note in this thread however he has not taken any sides in the debate which I find quite odd but he did give the impression in this thread some of the IAMS fast and and safe supporters were his mates and I guess he does not want to fall out with them.

There's a debate going on in this thread? Really?

:brick:

[ckai]

So you think speed limits on bends are just made up by the Govt then well I bet you are wrong as it is often stated in the media that speed limits are made as a result of the number of crashes on those bends so they are hardly made up as you think. You have to remember most motorists can not possibly afford a Porsche or a bike tuned for high speed cornering hence the reason why the limit stated may be less than what you can do safely on your sports bike which in my opinion have a safety deficiantcy in themselves in that your periferel vision
is limited by the lower bars. My argument is no matter how safe the IAMS guys think they can corner there is a safety trade off in stopping/slowing down time which is something they are not prepaired to agree with. It was another poster that claimed advanced riding instruction would create overconfidence and as I said reading the posts from the IAMS guys do give me that impression

You're missing the point completely. If you take a look back at my question I put to you, I asked you to compare yourself with a MotoGP Champ on the same bike. What would the differentiating factor be? Rider ability - pure and simple. The yellow sign with 65 written on it is merely an indication of what you believe you must travel around that corner. At least, this is the impressive I've gotten from what you're said.

The motogp champ isn't gonna give a shit. He'll ride that corner the speed he wants. Maybe considering the sign, maybe not. If the shit hits the fan, motogp champ with have the ability to save his ass better than you can. You, my friend, have proven that lack of ability can screw you up at any speed. Sticking to the signs or not. So I'll say it again:

It is ability that makes you unsafe NOT speed.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying you lack ability. I'm saying you lack ability compared with a highly trained, lightning responses, god-like motogp champ. I don't know you, or your ability. It would be daft of me to comment on such a thing.

Also I wasn't saying you mentioned about the rider training. I was just adding it in to save posting multiple times.

[ellipsis]

...I have yet to see where any person on side with any advanced rider training has advocated that higher speeds or wishing to attain higher speeds in cornering, is part of their ethos...somehow it has been insinuated or imagined (by cassina), that this is part of their doctrine...this thread is like being involved with a discussion between a 14 year old vegetarian greenie and grown ups, but the 14 year old should have gone to bed much earlier...

[Gremlin]

So you think speed limits on bends are just made up by the Govt then well I bet you are wrong as it is often stated in the media that speed limits are made as a result of the number of crashes on those bends so they are hardly made up as you think.
There is no speed limit on any corner in the country. There are recommendations for a safe and comfortable speed in good conditions for some of the corners, usually on the main routes of travel. There is no legal requirement to do this speed, they are advisory and as such, are in yellow and black (while requirements use white and red - it's a big lengthy document). These speeds are set based on specially equipped vans using a variety of sensors to determine the correct speed, although I've noticed many in my travels that are too high or low. You'll also notice that mandatory speed signs end in x0 and advisory end in x5. This is intentional.

I can only imagine how you would fare on roads without those corner signs... the whole point of advanced riding techniques is to help you be safer regardless of the road you're travelling on.

[Blackbird]

I don't really get what's going on in this thread, and it's way too long to read, but...

It went off track pretty quickly, even for KB! :2thumbsup. Muppett complimented a chap for showing great Roadcraft (the advanced system used to train police in the UK and NZ, plus also available to civilians through IAM, RoSPA etc). A moron (or troll) called cassina chose to misinterpret everything most people said and called on Rastuscat, a senior police officer to pass comment. Rastus replied that Roadcraft rocked so cassina accused him of protecting/siding with his "IAM mates" and continues to muddy the waters. I think the main thing is that a lot of riders are trying to improve their safe riding by various training systems and some aren't. Whether cassina is actually trying to improve his through formal training has never been disclosed and the rest is name-calling. That's probably all you need to know :yes:

[bogan]

There is no speed limit on any corner in the country.

Is it just the straight bits in between then? Could bring a new meaning to late braking...

[Gremlin]

Is it just the straight bits in between then? Could bring a new meaning to late braking...
:lol: gah, fine, there is an overarching speed limit in place, but I was referring to cassina wasn't I?

Besides, if you're not allowed to do more than 100 before the corner (or whatever the limit is) you don't exactly have much room to speed up do you? :bleh:

[iranana]

I can only imagine how you would fare on roads without those corner signs... the whole point of advanced riding techniques is to help you be safer regardless of the road you're travelling on.


Unless I knew the bend where there are no signs I would slow to a slower speed than what the sign said

how you can you slow to a slower speed than what the sign says if there is no sign in the first place? sorry, but if you're going to start some kind of war here you should at least make proper sense...

riding pillion can be kind of scary full stop, and the first time i rode pillion i thought we were going to crash and die too.

[Robbo]

I believe the yellow speed signs are a recommendation, and only trucks are required to adhere to the posted limit.

And its not very pro-active to wait until a few people crash to put in a control, I'm lead to believe that initially the engineers had a car fitted with a device that measured the forces the vehicle was put under while going through the corner (and I believe it was as simple as a marble in a curved slot).

I'd assume that nowadays they could simply calculate the number based on the radius and the camber during the design stage.

I have no reference for any of this......

edit-Tool is called a ball-bank

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=ball+bank+indicator&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=l-fJUt7FJcnFkwXx-YHIDg&sqi=2&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1358&bih=813

You are dead right Headbanger, that's exactly how these recommended corner speeds were calculated. I had a friend who worked for the old LTSA and he was explaining it to me some time ago. Seeing as how the argumentative prick on this thread rides an old 82 model bike he probably has problems staying upright, let alone going around corners whereas the original post was about a Speed Triple which would be one of the best and most nimble bikes for handling and cornering. :yes:

[bogan]

:lol: gah, fine, there is an overarching speed limit in place, but I was referring to cassina wasn't I?

Besides, if you're not allowed to do more than 100 before the corner (or whatever the limit is) you don't exactly have much room to speed up do you? :bleh:

:bleh:

Well, it'd make I.A.M training more interesting..."and you want to accelerate right up to a late apex, at which point you smoothly transition through engine braking to hard braking in order to reduce speed from around 160kmhr to 100 before the speed limit sets in"

Mind you the way cassina is carrying on you'd almost think she reckons that is what they do teach :wacko:

[george formby]

Unless I knew the bend where there are no signs I would slow to a slower speed than what the sign said or if I was following other traffic base my speed on theirs but not if they are travelling at a speed some IAMS guys do through bends. (remember the guy who was frightened they were going to crash and die being on the back of the IAMS riders bike)

:pinch:
If i based my speed on the traffic ahead of me I would die of old age before I got home. Not only that my fuel consumption would double, my brake pads burst into flames & I would be putting new tires on every 5 minutes. No tahnks, will stick wid Iams, the pet food of champions, guaranteed to make you cat go faster.

After the previous posts on how the suggested speed for corners came about, why would you slow to a slower than suggested speed if you were looking ahead through the bend?

[macka77]

its the akaroa gp for God sakes everyone get a life:crazy:

[george formby]

its the akaroa gp for God sakes everyone get a life:crazy:

This is the only cool place to be, I mean it's a bajillion degrees out side. Too hot for the bike even.

[george formby]

Was meaning would slow to a speed less than what the sign would have said. I agree riding pillion is not as safe as being the rider but you would think an IAMS qualified guy would know better
than ride in a way where the pillion felt they were going to crash. The pillion in this case was a bike rider themselves and if anything they would have less fear than a non bike riding pillion would they not?

Nah, being on the back is like riding blind fold. Everything feels exaggerated. My fav solution is to have a wee snooze if I'm pillion.

[iranana]

Was meaning would slow to a speed less than what the sign would have said. I agree riding pillion is not as safe as being the rider but you would think an IAMS qualified guy would know better
than ride in a way where the pillion felt they were going to crash. The pillion in this case was a bike rider themselves and if anything they would have less fear than a non bike riding pillion would they not?

i was just pulling your leg, I knew what ya meant :p

now that I ride, I feel that riding pillion isn't as enjoyable. There's something about being perched on the back with no control and a reduced feeling for the physics of the bike that makes for a scarier experience, and I have more moments where I think 'oh, I wouldn't have done that, or that', in response to the rider.

[Gremlin]

Unless I knew the bend where there are no signs I would slow to a slower speed than what the sign said or if I was following other traffic base my speed on theirs but not if they are travelling at a speed some IAMS guys do through bends.
No, the question I was stating, was that the signs do not exist (quite common). Therefore, there is no recommendation, but your answer seems to be to put your life in someone elses hands, relying on them to read the road? Remember the countless experiences of a lot of people coming across drivers that struggle to maintain 60-70kph on the open road... and you're trusting these drivers? Let's also assume on the other hand, that because these are back roads, there is no traffic (quite common). You seem to have no answer to this, which in my mind, is quite frankly scary. I'd suggest some riding training, but's that probably another thread (and year).


The pillion in this case was a bike rider themselves and if anything they would have less fear than a non bike riding pillion would they not?
Unless you actually have some first hand experience it's probably best you stop guessing. Riders can make good pillions, but generally the lack of control makes them very uncomfortable. They also have other ideas about leaning for corners and when, when to brake etc. A non bike riding pillion is much easier to calm, as the lack of knowledge is actually a good thing and they simply don't know what is and isn't, impossible. I've carried a lot of pillions in various situations. Best you probably read up the pillioning thread (all been merged into one thread).

[Madness]

I agree riding pillion is not as safe as being the rider but you would think an IAMS qualified guy would know better than ride in a way where the pillion felt they were going to crash. The pillion in this case was a bike rider themselves and if anything they would have less fear than a non bike riding pillion would they not?

I think you're referring to the post made by Muppet a page or three ago, rather than some guy qualified in the manufacture of cat food, when I ask; Where does Muppet state the rider he was pillioning with was an IAM official, or acting as such?

[Gremlin]

How well you can look through the bend depends on the bend and some are better to see through than others requiring different approach speeds.
Congratulations. This is called roadcraft, reading the road and conditions and travelling at a suitable speed. I prefer to be the best I can be, and aim to do it the best I possibly can.

Note, I didn't use the word fast at all.

[James Deuce]

IAMS is cat food!

Cat food.

Cat food.

Cat foo

Cat f

Bored...

[george formby]

Or by not limiting your speed to the speed of other traffic you could very well die before getting home without having to worry about old age your choice eh.
How well you can look through the bend depends on the bend and some are better to see through than others requiring different approach speeds.

Exactly right, my choice. Given the opportunity to safely & efficiently make progress past traffic, I do so. What was it you said about fast, safe & overtaking?
I would rather not sit in a queue of traffic with no chance of anticipating what the drivers in front will do next or the tail gaters behind me. I do not want to be the motorcycle in a car sandwich. If this is your preferred position on the road buy a lotto ticket. Your a definite lucky bugger.

You can only see as far as your vanishing point & your speed should be tempered by that distance as it changes.

Goodness, that's almost agreement.

[Madness]

It's ok, I think he's gone for a short ride. He won't be back for aaaages.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/w6Q3mHyzn78" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[bogan]

It's ok, I think he's gone for a short ride. He won't be back for aaaages.

Does anyone know where she/he lives? Be fucking hilarious to go a take the first digit off the signs in that area and watch a certain CB750 wobble around at 5kmhr :laugh:

[pritch]

Does anyone know where she/he lives? Be fucking hilarious to go a take the first digit off the signs in that area and watch a certain CB750 wobble around at 5kmhr :laugh:

Acording to his profile he lives in Christchurch. Not sure which Christchurch - as in which planet? :whistle:

[bogan]

Acording to his profile he lives in Christchurch. Not sure which Christchurch - as in which planet? :whistle:

Well, it is my understanding Christchurch is a very complex place with many, many corners; both speed marked and unmarked. Now we might be able to narrow the area down a bit by overlaying speed marked vs unmarked corner densities, or perhaps examining traffic flow dynamics vs her online times... but there would of course be a margin of error in either of those attempts :bleh:

[Hawk]

Well, it is my understanding Christchurch is a very complex place with many, many corners; both speed marked and unmarked. Now we might be able to narrow the area down a bit by overlaying speed marked vs unmarked corner densities, or perhaps examining traffic flow dynamics vs her online times... but there would of course be a margin of error in either of those attempts :bleh:

you forgot to factor in the shakey earth factor, the reason that some corners are not marked is we are not sure if they will be there tomorrow, I gave up using my navman ages ago.

[Big Dave]

IAMS is cat food!

Cat food.

Cat food.

Cat foo

Cat f

Bored...

TLDR.<tenchars> </tenchars>

[quickbuck]

Wow, what a thread.... Filled in an hour on a windy day...

So... Who is going to tell her what Muppet was doing at Ohakea before getting on the back of a bike and heading towards Wellington? And the rider (instructor) who put him in so much "danger"....
Na, leave it, this is funny as heck.... Hell, I must be bored...

Will say something though, advanced road based riding courses do not instruct you to ride around corners faster.
What they teach is the skills to ride around them using more awareness and skill. The upshot of this means sometimes you can increase the speed compared to your previous skill level.
I might be slightly biased but I reckon we should all at least try an advanced course to improve skill.
The instructors can teach more advanced stuff if you are at such a level... Yes, even if you have driven trucks for years. ;)

Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Kickaha]

I might be slightly biased but I reckon we should all at least try an advanced course to improve skill.

Don't need to,I'm a typical NZ motorcyclist and already know it all, there's nothing they can teach me;)

[dangerous]

If you now think he was so good how come you had any fear of him crashing? A responsible rider would never ride in such a way as to create a fear of crashing in their pillion

FUCK SAKES MAN... :facepalm: LOL, ummmm if you put me on the back of Rossi's bike as one of the worlds BEST riders... Id be BLOODY SHITTING MESELF



Don't need to,I'm a typical NZ motorcyclist and already know it all, there's nothing they can teach me;)bike maintance?

[jasonu]

FUCK SAKES MAN... :facepalm:


'Man' Really? I thought with a name like Cassina the poster is a chick, tart, broad, erm person of the female persuasion...

[ellipsis]

This rider was supposed to be a cautious IAMS rider though a big difference or are they all as I suspected wannabe racers


...you are now becoming a total fuckwit that doesn't know when to shut up...and without hanging out on a limb...a totally boring fuckwit that doesn't know when to shut up...girls genes with spiky hair?...