The Ukraine

[mark247]

I agree that RT is not completely objective (as pretty much all of us), however, as I said previously, in my opinion they are the most objective out of all world news agencies known to me, even though my point of view differs from theirs significantly on certain things. Criticism is good, but it needs to be backed up by something real not by "some former employee said". Currently they are the only news network that actually covers things like Syria or Ukraine, providing real video footage most of the time.

They do show a lot of raw footage I agree, most of it is the same stuff posted on Twitter. I think it's good people can see this. The reporting around this raw footage (describing it etc) is the dangerous stuff, they twist stories like no other.


That is a question that has been posed to the Ukrainian government for a few months now. The self defence forces in Eastern Ukraine appeared when the 'Maydan Defence' and the 'Right Sector' along with the National Guard started killing civilians in Eastern Ukraine.

In my opinion, when someone picks up a gun and starts shouting political rants, they aren't really civillians anymore. When did they just start killing civilians intentionally?

[angle]

They do show a lot of raw footage I agree, most of it is the same stuff posted on Twitter. I think it's good people can see this. The reporting around this raw footage (describing it etc) is the dangerous stuff, they twist stories like no other.
I would really appreciate it if you take one of their newest stories and show how they twist it. I see a different point of view being offered (for a change), not a twist to the story as such.


In my opinion, when someone picks up a gun and starts shouting political rants, they aren't really civillians anymore. When did they just start killing civilians intentionally?
I completely agree with you there, that's why when the so called "Euro Maydan" started welding weapons and killing police officers while shouting out ultra-nationalist and pseudo-political rants they should have been brought down by force immediately, before the situation escalated into what it is now. When did they start killing civilians? Odessa and Mariupol are good examples and there are plenty more which occurred in the East (I've posted a compilation video of such attacks previously) prior to the referendum in Crimea and which were the primary cause for this referendum.

[mark247]

I would really appreciate it if you take one of their newest stories and show how they twist it. I see a different point of view being offered (for a change), not a twist to the story as such.

I'll keep an eye out.



I completely agree with you there, that's why when the so called "Euro Maydan" started welding weapons and killing police officers while shouting out ultra-nationalist and pseudo-political rants they should have been brought down by force immediately, before the situation escalated into what it is now. When did they start killing civilians? Odessa and Mariupol are good examples and there are plenty more which occurred in the East (I've posted a compilation video of such attacks previously) prior to the referendum in Crimea and which were the primary cause for this referendum.

Although I think none of us have decent info on what happened in Odessa in Mariupol, I think Odessa went both ways. I've seen clear footage of 'Pro-Russia' protestors with pistols etc. The fire, I don't know. I have heard stories pointing at both sides.

I have nothing against why Euromaiden sprouted up. It started as a protest against Yanukovych's government, and fair enough, his 'regime' deserved to be kicked on its ass. Some groups, the Russian media loves talking about pravy sector, did some questionable stuff sure. From my experience, talking to friends in Ukraine, the average pro-euromaiden individual was by no means violent. They simply wanted a better Ukraine. From what I've seen Berkut and other pro-gov individuals came out with sniper rifles, CLEARLY shooting at people who were unarmed or had useless bats and slug guns. This may have gone both ways, but I think it's pretty clear Euromaiden largely was a peaceful protest which was turned bad by a minority.

[angle]

I think Odessa went both ways. I've seen clear footage of 'Pro-Russia' protestors with pistols etc. The fire, I don't know. I have heard stories pointing at both sides.
Firstly, why are you calling them "Pro-Russian"? They don't call themselves that, they are normal Ukrainian citizens who are denied their basic human rights by the current Ukrainian government. Secondly, where is this footage of them wielding pistols? Thirdly, here is the video footage of the Odessa incident, not stories that you've heard, real video footage, which shows what happened quite clearly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAEcceedzCU


I have nothing against why Euromaiden sprouted up. It started as a protest against Yanukovych's government, and fair enough, his 'regime' deserved to be kicked on its ass.
Euromaydan sprouted up as a riot organised and openly financed by the USA, Yanukovich's presidency was only used to bait people who can't think for themselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbjNJbjEy04 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fYcHLouXY


Some groups, the Russian media loves talking about pravy sector, did some questionable stuff sure. From my experience, talking to friends in Ukraine, the average pro-euromaiden individual was by no means violent. They simply wanted a better Ukraine. From what I've seen Berkut and other pro-gov individuals came out with sniper rifles, CLEARLY shooting at people who were unarmed or had useless bats and slug guns. This may have gone both ways, but I think it's pretty clear Euromaiden largely was a peaceful protest which was turned bad by a minority.
These are Euromaydan activists and they most certainly don't seem peaceful to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABjC_-32qg
Please present some proof which shows that it was what you call "pro-gov" individuals who were sniping both the police and the rioters. You have made quite a number of claims yet provided no proof at all. The video footage shows quite clearly that the rioters (aka Euromaydan activists) where shot from their own positions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eihw0kx-JVU , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlY51HuNSHg

However now I understand why you hate RT so much. Their reporting makes it so much harder for you to lie.

[mark247]

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to make anything up, the reason I don't post tons of links is usually because I can't remember sources which I saw months ago, esspecially difficult if it's some youtube video in a language im not fully fluent in. I'm not trying to lie about anything, I guess I do have a bias towards the "pro-Ukrainians" du eto having spent a lot of time there.


Firstly, why are you calling them "Pro-Russian"? They don't call themselves that, they are normal Ukrainian citizens who are denied their basic human rights by the current Ukrainian government. Secondly, where is this footage of them wielding pistols? Thirdly, here is the video footage of the Odessa incident, not stories that you've heard, real video footage, which shows what happened quite clearly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAEcceedzCU

I've probably been guiltly of this also, but I don't think there is one single "they." Sure somes of them are pissed off locals who are not pro ukr or ru, there are reports some were bussed in from Transnistria, and then there are pro-russians.

http://rt.com/files/news/24/0f/50/00/s1.jpg

"Одесса за референдум" and Russian flags in Odessa, around this time.


Euromaydan sprouted up as a riot organised and openly financed by the USA, Yanukovich's presidency was only used to bait people who can't think for themselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbjNJbjEy04 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fYcHLouXY

I'm not denying Euromaiden was supported by the Americans, or some Oligarchs, or whoever. There are still many genuinely concerned Ukrainians who simply supported positive change. Rememer also a large amount of people who wanted Yanukovych out didn't even go to 'Euromaidan square.' Euromaiden can be shaped as anything you want it to be (and very well done by the media), an American plot to destroy Putin, or whatever, and some of it may be half true.


These are Euromaydan activists and they most certainly don't seem peaceful to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABjC_-32qg
Please present some proof which shows that it was what you call "pro-gov" individuals who were sniping both the police and the rioters. You have made quite a number of claims yet provided no proof at all. The video footage shows quite clearly that the rioters (aka Euromaydan activists) where shot from their own positions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eihw0kx-JVU , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlY51HuNSHg


Again, I said that a minority of Euromaiden supporters were violent. I don't know, 18 Berkut/Police killed VS over 100 civilians. I personally don't think the majority of police (who were just doing their job) or the majority of protestors wanted anyone killed.


However now I understand why you hate RT so much. Their reporting makes it so much harder for you to lie.

Again, I'm not lying about anything man, I might be a bit passionate about the topic, but that's it. I think I'm going to call it quits on this thread. Enjoy guys.

[mashman]

Nice to hear.

It's scary that the separatists have retreated to Donetsk. Why cant this battle be fought, by those with guns, out of the way of the innocent.

They're people. The more we start to understand that the less likelihood there will be manufactured incidents.

Why can't it be fought with reason. There is no reason to fight, let alone using bullets... other than it makes people money. True though, it's pretty disappointing that people accept collateral damage as a valid excuse for the murder of innocent people.

[angle]

Again, I'm not lying about anything man, I might be a bit passionate about the topic, but that's it. I think I'm going to call it quits on this thread. Enjoy guys.
I apologise if I came across as too abrasive, I did not want to insult anyone. You shouldn't leave this thread, although it is not an enjoyable one, as your input is appreciated. Peace man :rockon:

[SPman]

. When did they just start killing civilians intentionally?
In Maidan square during the protests....

The Ukraine <strike>Loonies<strike></strike></strike>.....Right wing and nationalists polled 2% in the elections, yet hold over 20% of ministerial posts, including internal affairs.It has been widely reported by reputable observers, that nationalist "death squads" are roaming the east. Does shooting 15 wounded separatists in hospital do it for you........shooting a truckload of wounded.......good brave stuff.....

Yes - probably a majority don't want any violence, but, history has shown, it only takes a small, well trained, motivated force to control the tide of events in the short term at least.

[R650R]

John Pilger, always worth a read...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger

[mashman]

John Pilger, always worth a read...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger

Good read. Ach, if the yanks quit war, their economy will tank.

[Brian d marge]

If they raise the lending rate their economy will tank
Ours is in an ok position but is unsustainable
Money comes from misery . . . If ya want big money . . . .

The evil fkrs

Dr smith i have a long memory . . . .

[Swoop]

Intel dump.

12 July 2014: In Ukraine the Russian backed Donbas separatists have suffered serious defeats in the last few weeks and are further weakened by internal disputes and less support from Russia. Ukrainian security forces have entered most rebel held areas and basically crippled Russian efforts to annex the Donbas. The two Ukrainian provinces (Donetsk and Luhansk) which comprise the Donbas are now mostly under government control. Donbas contains about nine percent of Ukrainian territory, 13 percent of the population and 15 percent of the GDP. Donbas is about 38 percent ethnic Russian. The two provinces comprise the Donets Basin (or “Donbas”) which was for a long time an economic powerhouse for Soviet Russia. But that began to decline in the 1980s and accelerated when the Soviet Union fell (and Ukraine became independent) in 1991. Ukraine wants to hold onto Donbas but needs foreign help to do so.

Ukraine received diplomatic, economic and military aid from the West but the most important foreign aid was the economic pressure on Russia that causes a massive flight of foreign and Russian capital from Russia. The economic angle is important because Donbas residents (Ukrainians as well as ethnic Russians) are more concerned with the local economy than remaining part of Ukraine. Initial Russian success in Donbas was partly possible because two decades of corrupt and inept Ukrainian politicians have left the economy a mess and living standards lower than the rest of Eastern Europe and even Russia. Most Ukrainians want some economic progress and that means less corruption and more efficient government. Petro Poroshenko, the newly elected Ukrainian president is seen as honest and competent, but it remains to be seen if he can turn around enough corrupt government officials and politicians who currently run the government and economy. Poroshenko was sworn in on June 7th and Ukrainians expected him to show some results quickly otherwise the economic stagnation will continue and Donbas will be lost more to apathy than Russian aggression. Poroshenko’s efforts to deal with corruption and revive the national economy have gone forward but are still overshadowed by the Russian backed violence in Donbas.

Poroshenko has shown he will not back down in the face of Russian threats and it is the Russians who have blinked, so far. Russian leaders were forced to pay attention to the capital flight (over $75 billion do far) because that has had a real and negative effect on the Russian economy. In addition Western nations are gradually severing Russian ties to the Western economy the Russian aggression unnerved many Russian investors and business leaders. Economic statistics for the year so far show the damage clearly. This financial panic makes it even more difficult for Russia to grow its economy and keep most Russians content with their increasingly authoritarian government. Economist expect more than $100 billion to leave Russia by the end of the year, and this cripples economic growth because that cash is not available to invest in new and existing businesses. As a result Russia has backed off on its support for the Donbas rebels but not completely abandoned them.

Russia appears to have a “Plan B” for the Donbas that that includes keeping the rebels operational, even if at a very low level, so that by the end of the year, when the cold weather returns, Russia can uses its control over natural gas supplies for Ukraine to compel the Ukrainians to cede Donbas to Russia. This is a long shot but it is possible and Russia now trying to portray itself as the Good Guy and peacemaker. For the moment Russia is beaten, but not defeated.
Ukraine has been fighting to keep Donbas and since April, when Ukrainian troops moved in and clashed with pro-Russian rebels. In three months of fighting over a thousand troops, police, civilians and rebels have died. The fighting has driven over 100,000 people from their homes and that could more than double as civilians flee the city of Donetsk. That could result in over 3 percent of the 6.6 million people in Donbas becoming refugees and that number could increase when the other rebel held city, Luhansk, is also besieged.

Many of the Donbas refugees are ethnic Russians and they flee to Russia. This includes a growing number of former rebels who have quit their rebel organization in disgust or frustration at the recent decline in Russian support. Rebel morale is down and desertions (and sometimes surrenders to government forces) are up because the various rebel factions are arguing over what to do and who should be in charge. In the past Russia provided general guidance (and material support for that “guidance”) and the various rebel groups each did what they could to support the Russian plan. At the moment Russia no longer has a clear strategy for the Donbas rebellion, although that may change. And it is that hope that is keeping many of the remaining rebels fighting. Russian volunteers and some light weapons and ammo continue to cross the border into Donbas. But more substantial support requires Russian government cooperation and, for the moment, that cooperation has stopped. Some 90 percent of the pro-Russian rebels are ethnic Russians from Ukraine (mostly from Donbas, where the population is nearly 40 percent ethnic Russian). Unfortunately for the rebels, they do not have the support of most people in Donbas, not even most of the ethnic Russians.

In one area Russian support for the Ukraine rebels continues. Russia still helps with the pro-rebel campaign on the Internet. This Information War type effort tries to convince people that what is going on in Donbas is not another Russian attempt to annex neighbouring territory but a legitimate uprising against a tyrannical Ukrainian government. This Information War campaign is not having much success and is mainly appreciated by rebel supporters (in Ukraine, Russia and elsewhere) who have already made up their minds.

11 July 2014: In Ukraine government forces are attacking rebels at the Donetsk International Airport. Donetsk is one of the last two major city in eastern Ukraine (the Donbas) held by the rebels. The other rebel held city is Luhansk and it is under air and artillery attack.

10 July 2014: In Ukraine pro-Russian rebels fired rockets at a government held border post on the Russian border, killing 23 Ukrainian troops and wounding about three times as many. Ukraine promised retaliation for this, the largest loss in one attack in Donbas so far. The casualties were caused by rockets brought in from Russia.

9 July 2014: In Ukraine air force attacks on pro-Russian rebels in the Donbas left over fifty dead. Ukraine is using its air force to keep an eye on where the rebels are and then to bomb them.

8 July 2014: In Ukraine pro-Russian rebels fell back into the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk as government forces swept through the Donbas countryside chasing rebels out of many towns and villages. This led the rebels and West European nations to urge the Ukraine government to agree to another ceasefire. The Ukrainians pointed out that the rebels had used previous ceasefires as opportunities to increase their military strength, not sit down and seriously try to work out a permanent peace. So Ukraine is keeping the pressure on until Donbas is free of pro-Russian rebels. That could take a while because the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk have to be taken from the rebels and that must be done with minimal damage to the cities. Bombing and shelling the cities would only cause more locals to back the rebels. So the cities will be surrounded and, in effect, undergo siege. This can take time, but it might persuade the rebels to negotiate an end to it all.

7 July 2014: In Ukraine pro-Russian rebels have fled the city of Slaviansk and either deserted or headed for the city of Donetsk (100 kilometres to the south). Driving the rebels out of Slaviansk is the biggest victory yet for the government forces, which are now moving on to besiege Donetsk.

4 July 2014: In Ukraine the government said it would consider ceasefire negotiations if the rebels stopped fighting. Many rebels are interested in negotiations, but are concerned about amnesty and avoiding prosecution for death and destruction they inflicted since April. The rebels are also split by leadership and strategy disputes. Ukraine is finding that there does not seem to be a single rebel leader to deal with anymore.

3 July 2014: President Putin has called for new education efforts to indoctrinate Russian children to be more patriotic and to ignore foreign (mainly Western) influences. This is another attempt to revive Cold War era programs. The communist Soviet government spent a lot of time, money and effort on educating children to be pro-Soviet. It didn’t work then and is unlikely to work now. But this is the direction current Russian rulers want to take the country in.

1 July 2014: In Ukraine the ten day ceasefire came to an end as the government forces resumed their offensive against the Donbas rebels.

30 June 2014: The new leader of Islamic terrorists in the Caucasus (Ali Abu Mukhammad, also known as Aliaskhab Kebekov) has released an hour-long video in which is urges his followers to reduce civilian casualties (especially Moslem women and children) and not fight to the death when cornered. This is an admission of defeat and a decision to switch tactics. Islamic terrorists in the Caucasus will still use suicide bombs and attack security forces and local officials at every opportunity, but the strategy is now more long term and focused on reducing losses among Islamic terrorists and building up public support. Most people in the Caucasus are unhappy with local governments, which are corrupt and pro-Russian. Before the Islamic terrorists can take leadership of that resentment they have to shed their reputation of being mindless butchers who kill lots of civilians without seeming to have any impact on the corrupt local governments.

28 June 2014: In Ukraine rebels in Donetsk released four OSCE (Organisation for Security and Co-operation) observers were taken prisoner in late May.

27 June 2014: Ukraine signed a free trade agreement with the European Union (EU). It was a Ukrainian effort to sign such a deal last November that led to the Russian campaign to seize Crimea (which succeeded in March) and Donbas (which seems to be failing.) Russia protested the new deal with the EU, to no effect. Georgia and Moldova signed similar deals, despite sinister warnings by Russia not to.

Ukraine extended the ceasefire in Donbas 72 hours in the hope that the rebels would agree to serious peace negotiations and end their violence against Ukrainian soldiers and police in the Donbas. Some rebels want to make peace but the majority do not and these hardliners are responsible for the sniper and mortar fire against government forces during the week long ceasefire.

25 June 2014: NATO denounced Russia for continuing to support the Ukraine rebels after promising to withdraw such support. By the end of the month Russia had shut down most of that support, apparently because of the damage the Western economic sanctions were doing to the Russian economy.

[SPman]

John Pilger, always worth a read...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger

A Nato Membership Action Plan is Washington's gift to the coup-regime in Kiev. In August, "Operation Rapid Trident" will put American and British troops on Ukraine's Russian border and "Sea Breeze" will send US warships within sight of Russian ports.
Imagine the response if these acts of provocation, or intimidation, were carried out on America's borders.

A third of the population of Ukraine are Russian-speaking and bilingual. They have long sought a democratic federation that reflects Ukraine's ethnic diversity and is both autonomous and independent of Moscow. Most are neither "separatists" nor "rebels" but citizens who want to live securely in their homeland. Separatism is a reaction to the Kiev junta's attacks on them, causing as many as 110,000 (UN estimate) to flee across the border into Russia. Typically, they are traumatised women and children.

http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-return-of-george-orwell-and-big-brothers-war-on-palestine-ukraine-and-truth

[SPman]

I see your intel dump and raise you one

Message from Fyodor Berezin, June 25, 2014, 00:40

Translated from Russian by Gleb Bazov

Small Russian Village Saurovka and the Banderovite Abominations There is in Donbass an itty-bitty village – Saurovka. It’s right next to the Saur-Mogila Mound memorial. The Ukie army, being a direct successor to Hitlerite Wehrmacht, terribly hates Saur-Mogila, as it is a symbol of Russian valor in the Great Patriotic War. All the time their artillery and mortars lob shells directly at the memorial. But they cannot get any closer. On and around the Mound our fighters lie in wait. However, I am not here to talk about the defence of the memorial or of the [strategic] height.

I will talk about the little village of Saurovka. It’s really small. There are only 50 or so houses [in the entire settlement]. One day, the pravoseki [Right Sector militants] came there. NazGuard [National Guard], Azov-2 and Dnepr-2. And then they instilled European values in the village. They cut out[, murdered] all the men. They would cut them alive. They would cut the arms, then the legs. Then the head.
They did not cut the women – they raped them. And now they continue [to rape them], during the pauses between battles. Doubtlessly, the various fanboys of Europe and the Maidanites will say that these are made-up fairy tales. Nevertheless, all [that I said] is true. So, Messrs. Lyashko and Poroshenko, what was it that you were bleating about? A ceasefire? Something about how we need to disarm? There were no weapons in Saurovka …
Take note, chocolate baron, truth is on our side, and, one day, we will come for you. Yes, you, personally!
The forested area around Saur-Mogila continues to be replenshished with the fresh dead.
The pravoseki are inhuman not only toward the Donbass residents. Even their own they consider nothing but garbage. They don’t bury them properly. They do not care. They throw some earth on them, and the job’s done. The green of the forest [is soaked] with the smell of dead flesh. Sometimes they even leave their guns with the dead. Why care, right? Amreeka sponsors them, they’ll throw something new their way or buy [weapons] from some Poles.
They lob cluster shells at our guys. Not made in Ukie-stan. The shrapnel is such that, if it catches you, it will rip you up so that you can’t heal. A few days ago, militia fighters got a woman sniper with an “Utyes” [Note 1: NSV-12.7 “Utyes” machine gun]. Hello Poland! The girl was from there. She had the newest American automatic rifle 12.5mm calibre. We could not use the rifle. The heavy machine gun “Utyes” destroyed the [weapon].
I have a feeling that the Saur-Mogila Mound memorial is again becoming a symbol of Russian valour in the struggle against fascism. A few day ago, the Nazis refused to attack our strategic height, and the pravoseki then starting shooting at their own – to whip up the attack.
But then those [who were fired upon] got upset and started shooting back. Our fighters, looking from above, found this highly entertaining. If only the circus came by more often! However, this circus is not going to last long. Very soon we will push the Ukie-nazis out, from the outskirts of Saur-Mogila as well as from other places. Prepare your white shoes


http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/atrocities-in-slavyansk/
http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/atrocities-in-slavyansk/http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/slavyansk-refugee-remembers-brutal-execution/

(http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/slavyansk-refugee-remembers-brutal-execution/)

[MVnut]

Good intel propaganda guys

[Brian d marge]

could be worse , at least they dont have Tama iti running around their forest.....

One thing for sure , Ukraine , the situation sux balls . IF its american fed ......thats just plain evil

Not much we can do except ,,,A, dont believe a word of our media

B, tell the powers that be , in no uncertain terms that we will NOT support the current situation ,,,,

My question is ...IF they have been living in a sort of peace for ages ...how come now SH1t hits the fan ,,,,

Somebody, some where is making some coin .......the fkr

Stephen

[SPman]

My question is ...IF they have been living in a sort of peace for ages ...how come now SH1t hits the fan ,,,,

Somebody, some where is making some coin .......the fkr

Stephen
Ukraine is basically fucked - it's been systematically looted by a succession of elected "leaders" - Oligarchs, who have shovelled billions into their own bank accounts over the last 20 yrs, have been corrupt as all fuck, and have left the country basically broke. There was a lot of industry in East Ukraine, which withered after the USSR broke up, what jobs there are are vanishing at an increasing rate, the population is getting steadily poorer...in short..ideal conditions for Nationalists and nazis to prosper and take advantage of the situation, allied with the fact West and East Ukraine have basically different roots and the nazis in the west hate the russian speakers in the East - and jews! One of the first acts of the new government was to ban russian as an official language.
An ideal situation for the US and EU to take advantage of - it currently seems they are trying to provoke Russia to invade, so Russia can be totally marginalised, but, they aren't taking the bait, so things are getting more and more desperate - not that you'd know what's happening if you followed the western media - Ukraine government with it's neo nazis, good - "terrorist, seperatist, rebel scum, bad!
Making coin......probably Poroshenko and his fellow mates...but there's not that much coin to extract

[avgas]

IF its american fed ......thats just plain evil
Taking a page out of Russia's book really.
Islamist militants somehow ended up with T-72's and MIGS.

I love how the whole world essentially is the Americans the French the English and the Russians in terms of wars and wars machines. The only exception to this rule seems to be Israel, and (starting to be) China.
What a funny world we live in.

[avgas]

Good read. Ach, if the yanks quit war, their economy will tank.
Isn't that like the Australians running out of dirt?
UK running out of Taxes.
China running out of slave labour.
Or Japan running out of......ummm.....Friends.

[Brian d marge]

Japan loves itself

[avgas]

Japan loves itself
And then sells the dirty undies in machines, next to noodles and BOSS coffee

[Swoop]

Ukraine is basically fucked - it's been systematically looted by a succession of elected "leaders" - Oligarchs, who have shovelled billions into their own bank accounts over the last 20 yrs, have been corrupt as all fuck, and have left the country basically broke. There was a lot of industry in East Ukraine, which withered after the USSR broke up,
The break up of the USSR has other influences as well. The opportunity arose for the ex-kgb to take over the kremlin, which putin has done and successively installed more of his cronies into the mix of corruption. The west now withdrawing substantial amounts of business has its own effects...
Also remember that the Ukraine is the last piece of a "strategic shield" puzzle where he wants to install detection and ABM systems.

All fun and games, eh?

[Brian d marge]

I see the bbc is trying to say it was a russian rocket
Damn ruskies
Nuke em

God save america

[SPman]

Meantime, under the obfuscation and interest of the west in MH17, the conflict goes on....

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.br/2014/07/july-22nd-combat-sitrep-by-juan.html

July 22nd combat SITREP by Juan


1. Donetsk, Lugansk and surrounding towns and villages being bombarded ceaselessly by Uke forces using every weapon in their possession, Grad, Hurricane, Tornado and Smerch MLRS and arty up to 20.3 cm.

2. In last 4 days over 300 civilians in the aforementioned areas have been killed and a like number and more wounded. Civilian and industrial areas completely devoid of any Army of Novorossiya facilities and troops are targeted as is infrastructure such as gas, water and electric services.

3. Shoot down of MH17 has focused all world eyes on the aircraft. The Ukes are using this to unleash an assault on the civilians of Novorossiya with unprecedented savagery. Entire MLRS volleys are being fired in to cities, towns and villages away from the prying eyes of the press.

.............

9. Travel by private vehicle in areas of Novorossiya from the Kherson Oblast/Novorossiya border is dangerous. In the countryside at some small road intersections there are one, two or three civilian cars and trucks with the occupants shot dead.

10. At one intersection of two country dirt roads two cars are shot. Lying beside one of the cars are three local villagers, one man and two women, obviously shot to death while trying to either help the wounded occupants of a car or trying to remove the bodies. Locals are terrified and rarely leave their villages. Crops are untended.

11. One small natsgardia/right sector unit of 8 was ambushed in Kherson/Novorossiya Border area by unknown assailants and their bodies left neatly arranged along the forest path, weapons and equipment removed by unknown personnel. Near the ambush sight a young woman was found dead. She had been outraged and murdered.

12. Civilian travel in east and southern areas of Kherson Oblast can be dangerous. In the areas north of the Krimea/Kherson Oblast border numerous patrols of natsgarda/right sector.

13. Vehicles and the few trains coming to Krimea from Kherson Oblast are searched for valuables and most of the military age men detained and taken 'to the office'. They either pay a large bribe to be allowed to continue to Krimea or are press ganged in to Uke service and sent to the fronts

..........................

[Brian d marge]

Wheeey hey imagine this on a large scale

[oldrider]

In Maidan square during the protests....

The Ukraine <strike>Loonies<strike></strike></strike>.....Right wing and nationalists polled 2% in the elections, yet hold over 20% of ministerial posts, including internal affairs.It has been widely reported by reputable observers, that nationalist "death squads" are roaming the east. Does shooting 15 wounded separatists in hospital do it for you........shooting a truckload of wounded.......good brave stuff.....

Yes - probably a majority don't want any violence, but, history has shown, it only takes a small, well trained, motivated force to control the tide of events in the short term at least.

All that sort of shit could happen right here in Godzown in a flash ... people are so fucking thick they wouldn't even see it coming! :kick:

[SPman]

If you ignore all the Marxist rhetoric, this article has a good summation of what's going on in Ukraine at a fundamental level

http://www.marxist.com/these-on-ukraine-2014-draft.htm

[mashman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NePChnsuMNs#t=777

As per, make of it what you will.

[Brian d marge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NePChnsuMNs#t=777

As per, make of it what you will.

Oh that was a classic right there ...watched it at lunch time ......

Might start a poll as to when I will get me tv

Stephen

[scrivy]

As per, make of it what you will.

Sadly he is probably right too........ :weird:

If I were the Ruskies, I'd take all of my nuclear subs away from Russia, and hide them very close to the US continent... then I'd let it slip out to the journos to invent the details...... I wonder how long it would take for the Yankers to quickly pull back from Russia....

Remember, the Yankers have their Starwars sorted, but they are not shielded from a strike from close proximity at ground level.......

That's what I'd be doing if I were Putin.......

Of course, I wouldn't go through with it.....

[mashman]

Sadly he is probably right too........ :weird:

If I were the Ruskies, I'd take all of my nuclear subs away from Russia, and hide them very close to the US continent... then I'd let it slip out to the journos to invent the details...... I wonder how long it would take for the Yankers to quickly pull back from Russia....

Remember, the Yankers have their Starwars sorted, but they are not shielded from a strike from close proximity at ground level.......

That's what I'd be doing if I were Putin.......

I guess he's in a position to know.

Oooooo, a hypothesis. Dunno, if I were Putin like, if I'd do similar to yourself. I think my first port of call would be to enlist the support of Pakistan, India, Iran, China, South Africa etc... before I did anything with my arsenal. The combined PRICS nations would be more than enough to fight off the US and I would imagine that it would turn a few Euro country's "anti-US" too. I doubt he'd do anything like that though :shifty:.

Still, I'm glad I'm not in that position as I'd likely start WW3 in order to clear a path for "my" New Ordered World :D

[R650R]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-myth-of-russian-aggression/5394632

[Hinny]

I find it amusing how the Yanks are all upset and beating their chests over another Nation being so rude as to send it's troops into a trouble spot to 'help keep the peace' and how wrong that is. Like they have never done that.., again and again and again.

I like the Yanks, I appreciate how they eventually came to every ones aid in WWI and WWII but they need to remind themselves they invited themselves into Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, a few small South American independencies from memory. Russia has more rightful claim to be in Crimea than the Yanks had towards any of the places they 'stepped in to help'

But this is yet another hot spot that could see things turn to real big shit globally. Time to be nervous.

I recently read that the US has waged 56 wars since the end of WW2.
Apparently Obama, the Nobel peace prize winner, has been involved in 7.
The US should get the hell out of Ukraine.
The Banksters chasing dollars - and once again using the US taxpayers to fund their adventures.

[awa355]

I have a question. If America has this ' first strike ' policy in place and they are determined to controll the world, why would they give a toss about hiding the truth from anyone?, apart from allowing Russia to get in their 'first strike'.

They have manipulated other govts, elections, people, media etc, so rigging western elections wouldn't be a big deal. Would we ever know in NZ if the results coming out of Wellington on election night were true numbers?

[R650R]

I have a question. If America has this ' first strike ' policy in place and they are determined to controll the world, why would they give a toss about hiding the truth from anyone?, apart from allowing Russia to get in their 'first strike'.


Oh dear been watching too many Hollywood movies. A nuke strike is never an option unless some Dr Strangelove (watch the film its good) nutter gets in control. Even a limited exchange not involving other countries would still be mutually assured destruction for both countries and the world.
Americas economy is already stuffed and they make bugger all stuff themselves anymore. And kind of proper war even conventional cutting off trade routes would see them self destruct.
Also 'first strike' relies on hitting your enemies systems before they know whats coming and with modern technology that's just about impossible.
Then there was the Russian Sub patrolling off the coast of florida undetected recently that surfaced and said hello...
Russia and China have recently been working towards a new reserve currency that will kill the petro dollar (USD) and the americans source of control.
Soon the USA will learn the Romans lesson of what happens when there is no money to pay the troops. Not a good outcome when the poor people know where the rich people live...

BTW they need to hide the truth about their shenanigans as even though their foreign policy is pretty screwed up, the people themselves are good and decent and would not stand for wjhats been done in their name illegally.

[Hinny]

Intel dump.

12 July 2014: In Ukraine the Russian backed Donbas separatists have suffered serious defeats in the last few weeks and are further weakened by internal disputes and less support from Russia. Ukrainian security forces have entered most rebel held areas and basically crippled Russian efforts to annex the Donbas. The two Ukrainian provinces (Donetsk and Luhansk) which comprise the Donbas are now mostly under government control. Donbas contains about nine percent of Ukrainian territory, 13 percent of the population and 15 percent of the GDP. Donbas is about 38 percent ethnic Russian. The two provinces comprise the Donets Basin (or “Donbas”) which was for a long time an economic powerhouse for Soviet Russia. But that began to decline in the 1980s and accelerated when the Soviet Union fell (and Ukraine became independent) in 1991. Ukraine wants to hold onto Donbas but needs foreign help to do so.

Ukraine received diplomatic, economic and military aid from the West but the most important foreign aid was the economic pressure on Russia that causes a massive flight of foreign and Russian capital from Russia. The economic angle is important because Donbas residents (Ukrainians as well as ethnic Russians) are more concerned with the local economy than remaining part of Ukraine. Initial Russian success in Donbas was partly possible because two decades of corrupt and inept Ukrainian politicians have left the economy a mess and living standards lower than the rest of Eastern Europe and even Russia. Most Ukrainians want some economic progress and that means less corruption and more efficient government. Petro Poroshenko, the newly elected Ukrainian president is seen as honest and competent, but it remains to be seen if he can turn around enough corrupt government officials and politicians who currently run the government and economy. Poroshenko was sworn in on June 7th and Ukrainians expected him to show some results quickly otherwise the economic stagnation will continue and Donbas will be lost more to apathy than Russian aggression. Poroshenko’s efforts to deal with corruption and revive the national economy have gone forward but are still overshadowed by the Russian backed violence in Donbas.

Poroshenko has shown he will not back down in the face of Russian threats and it is the Russians who have blinked, so far. Russian leaders were forced to pay attention to the capital flight (over $75 billion do far) because that has had a real and negative effect on the Russian economy. In addition Western nations are gradually severing Russian ties to the Western economy the Russian aggression unnerved many Russian investors and business leaders. Economic statistics for the year so far show the damage clearly. This financial panic makes it even more difficult for Russia to grow its economy and keep most Russians content with their increasingly authoritarian government. Economist expect more than $100 billion to leave Russia by the end of the year, and this cripples economic growth because that cash is not available to invest in new and existing businesses. As a result Russia has backed off on its support for the Donbas rebels but not completely abandoned them.

Russia appears to have a “Plan B” for the Donbas that that includes keeping the rebels operational, even if at a very low level, so that by the end of the year, when the cold weather returns, Russia can uses its control over natural gas supplies for Ukraine to compel the Ukrainians to cede Donbas to Russia. This is a long shot but it is possible and Russia now trying to portray itself as the Good Guy and peacemaker. For the moment Russia is beaten, but not defeated.
Ukraine has been fighting to keep Donbas and since April, when Ukrainian troops moved in and clashed with pro-Russian rebels. In three months of fighting over a thousand troops, police, civilians and rebels have died. The fighting has driven over 100,000 people from their homes and that could more than double as civilians flee the city of Donetsk. That could result in over 3 percent of the 6.6 million people in Donbas becoming refugees and that number could increase when the other rebel held city, Luhansk, is also besieged.

Many of the Donbas refugees are ethnic Russians and they flee to Russia. This includes a growing number of former rebels who have quit their rebel organization in disgust or frustration at the recent decline in Russian support. Rebel morale is down and desertions (and sometimes surrenders to government forces) are up because the various rebel factions are arguing over what to do and who should be in charge. In the past Russia provided general guidance (and material support for that “guidance”) and the various rebel groups each did what they could to support the Russian plan. At the moment Russia no longer has a clear strategy for the Donbas rebellion, although that may change. And it is that hope that is keeping many of the remaining rebels fighting. Russian volunteers and some light weapons and ammo continue to cross the border into Donbas. But more substantial support requires Russian government cooperation and, for the moment, that cooperation has stopped. Some 90 percent of the pro-Russian rebels are ethnic Russians from Ukraine (mostly from Donbas, where the population is nearly 40 percent ethnic Russian). Unfortunately for the rebels, they do not have the support of most people in Donbas, not even most of the ethnic Russians.

In one area Russian support for the Ukraine rebels continues. Russia still helps with the pro-rebel campaign on the Internet. This Information War type effort tries to convince people that what is going on in Donbas is not another Russian attempt to annex neighbouring territory but a legitimate uprising against a tyrannical Ukrainian government. This Information War campaign is not having much success and is mainly appreciated by rebel supporters (in Ukraine, Russia and elsewhere) who have already made up their minds.

11 July 2014: In Ukraine government forces are attacking rebels at the Donetsk International Airport. Donetsk is one of the last two major city in eastern Ukraine (the Donbas) held by the rebels. The other rebel held city is Luhansk and it is under air and artillery attack.

10 July 2014: In Ukraine pro-Russian rebels fired rockets at a government held border post on the Russian border, killing 23 Ukrainian troops and wounding about three times as many. Ukraine promised retaliation for this, the largest loss in one attack in Donbas so far. The casualties were caused by rockets brought in from Russia.

9 July 2014: In Ukraine air force attacks on pro-Russian rebels in the Donbas left over fifty dead. Ukraine is using its air force to keep an eye on where the rebels are and then to bomb them.

8 July 2014: In Ukraine pro-Russian rebels fell back into the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk as government forces swept through the Donbas countryside chasing rebels out of many towns and villages. This led the rebels and West European nations to urge the Ukraine government to agree to another ceasefire. The Ukrainians pointed out that the rebels had used previous ceasefires as opportunities to increase their military strength, not sit down and seriously try to work out a permanent peace. So Ukraine is keeping the pressure on until Donbas is free of pro-Russian rebels. That could take a while because the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk have to be taken from the rebels and that must be done with minimal damage to the cities. Bombing and shelling the cities would only cause more locals to back the rebels. So the cities will be surrounded and, in effect, undergo siege. This can take time, but it might persuade the rebels to negotiate an end to it all.

7 July 2014: In Ukraine pro-Russian rebels have fled the city of Slaviansk and either deserted or headed for the city of Donetsk (100 kilometres to the south). Driving the rebels out of Slaviansk is the biggest victory yet for the government forces, which are now moving on to besiege Donetsk.

4 July 2014: In Ukraine the government said it would consider ceasefire negotiations if the rebels stopped fighting. Many rebels are interested in negotiations, but are concerned about amnesty and avoiding prosecution for death and destruction they inflicted since April. The rebels are also split by leadership and strategy disputes. Ukraine is finding that there does not seem to be a single rebel leader to deal with anymore.

3 July 2014: President Putin has called for new education efforts to indoctrinate Russian children to be more patriotic and to ignore foreign (mainly Western) influences. This is another attempt to revive Cold War era programs. The communist Soviet government spent a lot of time, money and effort on educating children to be pro-Soviet. It didn’t work then and is unlikely to work now. But this is the direction current Russian rulers want to take the country in.

1 July 2014: In Ukraine the ten day ceasefire came to an end as the government forces resumed their offensive against the Donbas rebels.

30 June 2014: The new leader of Islamic terrorists in the Caucasus (Ali Abu Mukhammad, also known as Aliaskhab Kebekov) has released an hour-long video in which is urges his followers to reduce civilian casualties (especially Moslem women and children) and not fight to the death when cornered. This is an admission of defeat and a decision to switch tactics. Islamic terrorists in the Caucasus will still use suicide bombs and attack security forces and local officials at every opportunity, but the strategy is now more long term and focused on reducing losses among Islamic terrorists and building up public support. Most people in the Caucasus are unhappy with local governments, which are corrupt and pro-Russian. Before the Islamic terrorists can take leadership of that resentment they have to shed their reputation of being mindless butchers who kill lots of civilians without seeming to have any impact on the corrupt local governments.

28 June 2014: In Ukraine rebels in Donetsk released four OSCE (Organisation for Security and Co-operation) observers were taken prisoner in late May.

27 June 2014: Ukraine signed a free trade agreement with the European Union (EU). It was a Ukrainian effort to sign such a deal last November that led to the Russian campaign to seize Crimea (which succeeded in March) and Donbas (which seems to be failing.) Russia protested the new deal with the EU, to no effect. Georgia and Moldova signed similar deals, despite sinister warnings by Russia not to.

Ukraine extended the ceasefire in Donbas 72 hours in the hope that the rebels would agree to serious peace negotiations and end their violence against Ukrainian soldiers and police in the Donbas. Some rebels want to make peace but the majority do not and these hardliners are responsible for the sniper and mortar fire against government forces during the week long ceasefire.

25 June 2014: NATO denounced Russia for continuing to support the Ukraine rebels after promising to withdraw such support. By the end of the month Russia had shut down most of that support, apparently because of the damage the Western economic sanctions were doing to the Russian economy.


Do you write this stuff or do you get it from Fox News; Hans Anderson, Grim Bros?

[puddytat]

Nah...from his superiors .

[SPman]

People in the embattled Donbass know the shale beneath their feet could be the real reason for conflict in their towns
http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/318-66/25251-ukrainians-war-is-really-about-gas-reserves-fracking


A visitor to the Donbass in February or March wouldn’t have heard fear of war but fear of fracking, with residents fearful their land would be destroyed........

.....The people of the Donbass, the country’s gritty industrial region in the east, were not naive. They realized that gas pipelines crossing the border with Russia and the shale gas fields near Slovyansk — with a potential reserve of about 3 trillion cubic meters of gas...........

.............Gas pipes, locals believed, were a reason behind the daily fighting over Amvrosyevka, since a Gazprom main line from Siberia to Europe that runs right outside the home of the Ivanovs, 16 kilometers from the border with Russia, passes around the corner from a Ukrainian checkpoint that is attacked by rebels continually.
The Ivanovs were torn by fear and ideologies. The father, Igor, is Russian but sympathized with the Maidan revolution. The mother, Tatyana, is Ukrainian and loved Putin. She felt especially proud of Russia on Victory Day, May 9.
The war caught them in the middle of the strawberry harvest and a redecoration project at their daughter Yulia’s house. By the beginning of July, constant fighting pushed the family to move to the basement.
“We don’t support anybody. All we want is to stay alive. Please make the world understand that,” Igor said.

[mashman]

"The Russian president’s call for a humanitarian corridor comes hours after the UN Security Council blocked a Russia proposed statement on a mutual ceasefire and peace talks in Ukraine – and just minutes after US President Barack Obama blasted at Russia and threatened it with more sanctions over its purportedly “direct role” in the Ukrainian crisis." (http://rt.com/news/183520-ukraine-russia-putin-militia/)

Meanwhile, just minutes after (as mentioned above), Obama threatens Russia with new sanctions over Ukraine (http://rt.com/usa/183516-obama-new-sanctions-russia-ukraine/)...

I think this little ditty speaks volumes as to the real issue: "Obama said, “Russia is already more isolated than any time since the end of the cold war.”". WTF does that have to do with anything? Obama, you're a cock.

[yokel]

I think this little ditty speaks volumes as to the real issue: "Obama said, “Russia is already more isolated than any time since the end of the cold war.”". WTF does that have to do with anything? Obama, you're a cock.

That's just shit talk for the TV watchers consumption

[buggerit]

So any word on the info on the black boxes yet?

[mashman]

So any word on the info on the black boxes yet?

Yup... it's all over the internet. They said the missile did it... but I reckon that's bullshit :laugh:.

[buggerit]

Yup... it's all over the internet. They said the missile did it... but I reckon that's bullshit :laugh:.

My guess also, things went very quiet with the accusations.

[SPman]

Aug 22...............
I heard yesterday evening that Holland has officially announced that it will not release the full info of the flight data and voice recorders of MH17. Thus Holland has now become an official accomplice to the cover-up of this murder of the passengers of MH17. This is absolutely outrageous and disgusting I and sure hope that the Malaysian government will not allow this. As for Kiev, it is also sitting on the recording of the communications between the Kiev ATC and MH17. Finally, the USA has it all through its own signals intelligence capabilities. So they all know and they are all covering up. Under the circumstances, can anybody still seriously doubt "who done it"?..............

[Akzle]

Obama, you're a cock.


So any word on the info on the black boxes yet?

oi. You leave michelle and the daughters out of it.

[mashman]

oi. You leave michelle and the daughters out of it.

cannot spread :shifty: etc...

[R650R]

Well the fake Russian invasion story seems to have flaked, even the Herald couldn't muster enough bravdo to headline it....

What were the Ukes thinking, publicly buying those old t-72's from turkey, shipping them in plain site on railway then try to say Russia invading....

[mashman]

Putin live at a youth forum on current affairs on RT at the mo (10:33).

[Brian d marge]

wot about those 10 russians who got lost .....


Stephen

[awa355]

Well the fake Russian invasion story seems to have flaked, even the Herald couldn't muster enough bravdo to headline it....

What were the Ukes thinking, publicly buying those old t-72's from turkey, shipping them in plain site on railway then try to say Russia invading....

Where is the link to this theory?

[SPman]

The MSM radio is constantly on with -"Russia invades Ukraine", Ukraine forces are advancing and driving the rebels back, Russia has to stop or NATO, Europe, the UN will have to be tougher, etc etc, ....yet


All the reports from Novorussian sources agree that the Ukie forces are either surrounded or in full retreat. But Ukies sources also confirm this. In Kiev, angry demonstrations by nationalists accuse the military high command of minimizing the real casualty figures, of having abandoned the forces fighting in the Donbass. Even Oleg Liashko has stated that the Ukie forces have been "betrayed". Demonstrations have taken place in from of the Ukie General Staff which many Right Sector protesters which are demanding the creation of a "generals battalion" which would be formed of only generals who would be sent to fight personally (an excellent idea, which I fully approve of!).
Others are also demanding the resignation of the Ukie Minister of Defense. Ukrainian woman are regularly stopping military convoys on the roads, often by standing or lying down in front of trucks, to prevent their men from being sent to death. Entire Ukie battalions are deserting from the front and Special Forces are sent to stop them. Apparently, the Ukie police is afraid to arrest the soldiers for desertion because of their large numbers.
The city of Mariupol is now surrounded and the local political elites and SBU personnel have fled. Poroshenko cancelled his trip to Turkey and gathered his Security Council. Kolomoiski, who controls the southwestern Ukraine, did the same thing with his own Security Council (yes, since he has his own army, is also has his own security council). Tymoshenko wants the introduction of full martial law. The male population up to 60 is now conscripted (though not called up as far as I know). Iatseniuk and Poroshenko have both demanded that NATO intervene and accept the Ukraine as some special ally

and that demented head of NATO, is running around demanding Russia stop being Russia! Obama is spouting off about "irrefutable proof" that Russia is sending in troops and tanks, but won't release any of this "proof". Apparently Yalta has fallen to the NPA.


Putin met with Poroshenko and the EU leaders and delivered them a very simple yet stark message: "don't talk to us, we are not a party to the conflict - talk to the Novorussians". Furthermore, the Russians are also officially sending in a second aid convoy and they have announced that this will not be the only one.
In the UN Security Council the Russian Representative, Vitalii Churkin, has dared the Ukie Rep to explain where the recording of the conversations between the Kiev ATC and MH17 were hidden and why.....Mariupol will probably fall very soon. There are increasing reports of partisan movements in Zaporozhie and that, if true, is something very interesting which might begin to affect other areas and cities such as Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk

[yokel]

The MSM radio is constantly on with -"Russia invades Ukraine", Ukraine forces are advancing and driving the rebels back, Russia has to stop or NATO, Europe, the UN will have to be tougher, etc etc, ....yet



and that demented head of NATO, is running around demanding Russia stop being Russia! Obama is spouting off about "irrefutable proof" that Russia is sending in troops and tanks, but won't release any of this "proof". Apparently Yalta has fallen to the NPA.

I'm sure the bank's oops I mean the USA's preemptive strike foreign policy will bring peace to the world haha

[yokel]

get ready to hold on to your tinfoil hats people

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/WPKymVF57Mg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[awa355]

40 seconds of this guy was 50 seconds too much. His message may well be factual but no way I could watch his presentation style.

[yokel]

What's more important, the packaging or
the contents?

[Katman]

40 seconds of this guy was 50 seconds too much. His message may well be factual but no way I could watch his presentation style.

Well that's a shame because it's quite an eye opener.

[SPman]

"The separatists are backed, trained, armed, financed by Russia. Russia determined that it had to be a little more overt in what it had already been doing, but it's not really a shift."
Barak Obama, 29 August 2014.

"If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.”

Joseph Goebbels

Interestingly, most of us who are seeking the truth are primarily attempting to undo the lies - lies umpteen times repeated, lies about Russian invasions, first proclaimed by Poroshenko, Ukraine’s oligarch leader (sic), lies of Russia not respecting Ukraine’s sovereignty, demonization against President Putin, Malaysian airliners downed by Russia – and-so-on. The latest accusation is that JP Morgan and four other Wall Street banks have been hacked. And the culprit is…. Of, course Russia, according to the MSM.

It doesn’t matter whether what Poroshenko said and is repeated the world over was based on a translation error (according to the German Tagesschau, the German mainstream TV news) – or whether it is just a conventional lie continuously repeated until it becomes the truth à la Goebbels – the western bought propaganda machine takes full advantage of this hundreds of years old simple strategy of deception.

The interesting part, however, is that hardly anyone on that very occasion is presenting the counter-weight, so to speak, namely to what extent Kiev is assisted by US paid mercenaries, CIA military and strategic advisers and their equipment, all paid for in one way or another by the State Department, CIA, or NATO. And these are facts. Not inventions for deception.

Russian troops fighting for the east - indubitably, Chechens as well - that balances out the Polish and other troops fighting for Ukraine - except the Russian and Chechen troops are far more capable.....

[mstriumph]

BOTH sides of this squabble have such disgusting track records, historically, for treating people REALLY badly ...
and all those supporting them have such disgusting motives for so doing
that, personally, I'm with whatsisname on this one
"What a pity there can be only one loser...."

[Brian d marge]

get ready to hold on to your tinfoil hats people

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/WPKymVF57Mg" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

not sure about the Jews but the rest of it was on the money

oh cant spread love blah blah

Stephen

[mashman]

BOTH sides of this squabble have such disgusting track records, historically, for treating people REALLY badly ...
and all those supporting them have such disgusting motives for so doing
that, personally, I'm with whatsisname on this one
"What a pity there can be only one loser...."

The track record doesn't really matter. It serves no purpose other than to justify the continuance of their behaviour. This is just another engineered war, they all are... some economies grow because of war ;). Unfortunately tens of millions of people lose in the short term, and for those who have probably fought in similar wars, for what is the rest of their lives. The wars are wanted, the people are an acceptable loss because there is a global economy to fuel and that requires resources from elsewhere.

"See the world on a grain of sand."

[admenk]

The wars are wanted, the people are an acceptable loss because there is a global economy to fuel and that requires resources from elsewhere.

What an incredibly sad, but very true statement :weep:

[mstriumph]

The track record doesn't really matter. It serves no purpose other than to justify the continuance of their behaviour. This is just another engineered war, they all are... some economies grow because of war ;). Unfortunately tens of millions of people lose in the short term, and for those who have probably fought in similar wars, for what is the rest of their lives. The wars are wanted, the people are an acceptable loss because there is a global economy to fuel and that requires resources from elsewhere.

"See the world on a grain of sand."

horribly true
we should all go on strike and refuse to (strike, that is .... sorry, black humour)

when are we, the people going to stop dancing to the tunes of those with vested interests in getting us killed.

There is no such thing as an acceptable loss

[yokel]

horribly true
we should all go on strike and refuse to (strike, that is .... sorry, black humour)

when are we, the people going to stop dancing to the tunes of those with vested interests in getting us killed.

There is no such thing as an acceptable loss

yeah but we wont do fuck all until it happens in our own back yard, by then it'll be too late

[mashman]

What an incredibly sad, but very true statement :weep:

That's a financial economy for ya.


horribly true
we should all go on strike and refuse to (strike, that is .... sorry, black humour)

when are we, the people going to stop dancing to the tunes of those with vested interests in getting us killed.

There is no such thing as an acceptable loss

I reckon a coup could be more fun :wari:

If only it were up to the people. Let's see what the next election brings.

[awa355]

Wadda ya reckon? 3 months before this is an all out NATO V Russia brawl? Regardless of the lies and other bullshit this isn't going to die down any time soon.

[buggerit]

Wadda ya reckon? 3 months before this is an all out NATO V Russia brawl? Regardless of the lies and other bullshit this isn't going to die down any time soon.

Would make it a cold winter in Europe, Im sure the YANKS will do what ever it takes to make it happen.

[yokel]

Would make it a cold winter in Europe, Im sure the YANKS will do what ever it takes to make it happen.

Yeah something like 911 should just about do it

[mashman]

“Photos can be worth a thousand words; they can also deceive. We have considerable experience collecting, analyzing and reporting on all kinds of satellite and other imagery, as well as other kinds of intelligence. Suffice it to say that the images released by NATO on August 28 provide a very flimsy basis on which to charge Russia with invading Ukraine,” the group added. (http://rt.com/usa/184512-vips-memo-merkel-nato/)... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand like Iraq evidence is irrelevant.

[mashman]

So, take a sentence out of context that could lead to all out war and throw it to the body that you are President of. Jose Manual Barroso should be tried for treason. (http://rt.com/news/184548-putin-barroso-conversation-kiev/)

[Brian d marge]

been saying this for years ,

The effects , also incl crime , bad health , and a lot of societys ills

not just ISIS

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/GQxwaVQWSbY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephen

[oldrider]

Have any of you noticed that the ISIS (terrorists?) are using convoys of new Toyota trucks?

They are extremely well armed and trained with large sophisticated weapons of war and well supplied with ammunition!

Where the fuck did all that come from?

It all appears to be part of concerted and well controlled plan of action and the coverage we receive appears to be just a little too contrived!


Who benefits from all this? ... Of course I have my suspicions! :brick: Time will tell! :shifty:

[Brian d marge]

Have any of you noticed that the ISIS (terrorists?) are using convoys of new Toyota trucks?

They are extremely well armed and trained with large sophisticated weapons of war and well supplied with ammunition!

Where the fuck did all that come from?

It all appears to be part of concerted and well controlled plan of action and the coverage we receive appears to be just a little too contrived!


Who benefits from all this? ... Of course I have my suspicions! :brick: Time will tell! :shifty:


Toyota tough

when ya pumping 2m out of the ground , a new truck is the order of the day,

and the old trucks trickle down to the folks on the street, proof that the Chicago school of economics works !

Stephen

[SPman]

Have any of you noticed that the ISIS (terrorists?) are using convoys of new Toyota trucks?

They are extremely well armed and trained with large sophisticated weapons of war and well supplied with ammunition!

Where the fuck did all that come from?

It all appears to be part of concerted and well controlled plan of action and the coverage we receive appears to be just a little too contrived!


Who benefits from all this? ... Of course I have my suspicions! :brick: Time will tell! :shifty:

Well........from PCR's latest rant

It is the Ukrainian nazi militias that are attacking civilians in the former Russian territories of eastern and southern Ukraine. A number of regular Ukrainian military units have defected to the independent republics. Yes, nazis. Western Ukraine is the home of the Ukrainian SS divisions that fought for Hitler. Today the militias organized by the Right Sector and other right-wing political organizations wear the nazi insignia of the Ukrainian SS divisions. These are the people that Washington and the EU support. If the Ukrainian nazis could win against Russia, which they cannot, they would turn on the stupid West, just as has the Washington-funded ISIS that the dumbshits in Washington unleashed on Libya and Syria. Now ISIS is remaking the Middle East, and Washington appears helpless.



Dmitri Orlov has a good article on the propaganda war....
With regard to the goings-on in Ukraine, I have heard quite a few European and American voices piping in, saying that, yes, Washington and Kiev are fabricating an entirely fictional version of events for propaganda purposes, but then so are the Russians. They appear to assume that if their corporate media is infested with mendacious, incompetent buffoons who are only too happy to repeat the party line, then the Russians must be same or worse.

The reality is quite different. While there is a virtual news blackout with regard to Ukraine in the West, with little being shown beyond pictures of talking heads in Washington and Kiev, the media coverage in Russia is relentless, with daily bulletins describing troop movements, up-to-date maps of the conflict zones, and lots of eye-witness testimony, commentary and analysis. There is also a lively rumor mill on Russian and international social networks, which I tend to disregard because it's mostly just that: rumor. In this environment, those who would attempt to fabricate a fictional narrative, as the officials in Washington and Kiev attempt to do, do not survive very long. http://cluborlov.blogspot.ca/2014/08/propaganda-and-lack-thereof.html

[mashman]

Have any of you noticed that the ISIS (terrorists?) are using convoys of new Toyota trucks?

They are extremely well armed and trained with large sophisticated weapons of war and well supplied with ammunition!

Where the fuck did all that come from?

It all appears to be part of concerted and well controlled plan of action and the coverage we receive appears to be just a little too contrived!


Who benefits from all this? ... Of course I have my suspicions! :brick: Time will tell! :shifty:

They took out a loan, duh.

[R650R]

Very good article about the fake Russian invasion. We saw in Georgia they don't F*** about once they do something.
This article clearly shows the recent news is a pathetic frame up http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-02/guest-post-how-can-you-tell-whether-russia-has-invaded-ukraine

[SPman]

So....as expected, the unprincipled fool, Rasmussen, is breathlessly announcing how bad Russia is, how it's the first time since the war one European nation is trying to take over another nation and how NATO will not recognise them. You've got to hand it to "the West". When it comes to playing the big lie, they certainly have the imbeciles to do it!
Meanwhile...just follow the money.......

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/25687-focus-the-whys-behind-the-ukraine-crisis

[oldrider]

So....as expected, the unprincipled fool, Rasmussen, is breathlessly announcing how bad Russia is, how it's the first time since the war one European nation is trying to take over another nation and how NATO will not recognise them. You've got to hand it to "the West". When it comes to playing the big lie, they certainly have the imbeciles to do it!
Meanwhile...just follow the money.......

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/25687-focus-the-whys-behind-the-ukraine-crisis

Quote from that link:

But what is particularly shocking in this case is how virtually everyone in U.S. officialdom – and across the mainstream media spectrum – has bought into this madness.

Not so particularly shocking when you consider:

Who controls the money, who controls media and who controls the USA by power of lobby? ... Israel and Zionist America! :corn:

[oldrider]

Next major world power? ... Are they there yet?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r73USnJPxi8 :shifty: . You be the judge!

[oldrider]

Ukraine false flag plane shoot down Brother Nathanael's point of view! ... http://brovids.com/?p=1246

[Brian d marge]

And i point u to

Leo Strauss (September 20, 1899 – October 18, 1973) was a German–American political philosopher and classicist who specialized in classical political philosophy. He was born in Germany to Jewish parents and later emigrated to the United States. He spent most of his career as a professor of political science at the University of Chicago, where he taught several generations of students and published fifteen books


Hmmmmmm
Then if u look at his students u get these people
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/09/da7a419f23e74056f2f523fc86510ad0.jpg


Dirty deals done dirt cheap

How are we doing with this smoke fire thing:cool::eek:

[oldrider]

Inclined to be long but interesting points of view expressed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwg7w8IE3hY#t=2032

[mashman]

Why Estonia Might Be Next on Putin’s “Wanted” List (http://news.yahoo.com/why-estonia-might-next-putin-093000225.html)... bang on cue :facepalm:.

[Brian d marge]

Why Estonia Might Be Next on Putin’s “Wanted” List (http://news.yahoo.com/why-estonia-might-next-putin-093000225.html)... bang on cue :facepalm:.

why, for some reason am I not trusting the western media ......

Stephen

[Swoop]

Have any of you noticed that the ISIS (terrorists?) are using convoys of new Toyota trucks?
I'm surprised that America hasn't cottoned on to this simple fact.

The best way to defeat terrorism is to simply shut down the production of Toyota utes!

[SPman]

I'm surprised that America hasn't cottoned on to this simple fact.

The best way to defeat terrorism is to simply shut down the production of Toyota utes!Dammit - they should be drivin 'Merikan trucks!


Back to Ukraine - an interview with one of the nastier Ukraine Oligarchs, Arsen Avakov......


........According to Avakov, himself an oligarch in his own right, comrade oligarch Akhmetov could have and should have suppressed the revolt of his Donetsk slaves in the beginning, but he didn't see the danger and what should have been done clearly enough. Indeed, Avakov called the people in Donbass who rose up against the Banderite junta "slaves"--"slaves of their oligarchs."



In Avakov's Nazi oligarchic eyes, the working people and miners of Donbass are "vatniks"--called so after the winter jackets worn by and popular with Red Army soldiers. Ukrainian Banderites and Nazi nationalists are now using the expression as a blanket derogatory term for the Russians and pro-Russian Ukrainians. For these Ukrainian Nazis, "vatniks" is a colloquial way for calling the Russians and the granddaughters and grandsons of the victors in the Great Patriotic War against Nazism "subhumans." And, faithfully to Nazism, for Avakov, "vatnik" and "subhuman" means a slave (rab)..............

http://vladimirsuchan.blogspot.ie/2014/09/in-avakovs-eyes-killing-people-small.html

[R650R]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/nato-attacks-2/5399948

[SPman]

Pepe Escobar makes for some good reading.

"NATO is by far the largest danger to world peace. It should be dissolved as a matter of urgency." seems to be a common thread through most people's articles.

[Swoop]

"NATO is by far the largest danger to world peace. It should be dissolved as a matter of urgency."
He's almost correct. The UN needs to be dissolved!

[mashman]

Dammit - they should be drivin 'Merikan trucks!

Back to Ukraine - an interview with one of the nastier Ukraine Oligarchs, Arsen Avakov......

http://vladimirsuchan.blogspot.ie/2014/09/in-avakovs-eyes-killing-people-small.html

"Avakov also expressed his conviction that, in his view, none of these oligarchic slaves "would ever be able to defeat him in a discussion."

But I bet the women could beat the shit out of him. Kinda shows the intelligence level though. A discussion being the measure that condemns one to serfdom or to be classed as subhuman... whereas using ones position to commit legal murder. Irony personified.

[oldrider]

World Zionist banks are angry with BRICS .... hence the Western Powers antagonism toward Putin and Russia being painted up as the imaginary bad guy's!

BRICS new development bank! .... Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa.

The crap that they expect us to swallow is worse than the script of one of their Hollywood B grade movies! :brick:

After growing up believing we were on the same side as the good guy's ... it's a bit hard to swallow when you find that reality is the complete opposite!

Where on earth do we go from here? :scratch: (The evidence is now so plain it's clearer than the egg on our faces!)

How soon will it be before the Zionist puppet presidents drag us kicking and screaming into WW3 and finally into the complete New World Order? :thud:

[mashman]

Where on earth do we go from here? :scratch: (The evidence is now so plain it's clearer than the egg on our faces!)

I may have mentioned where a few times :laugh:.

[Katman]

Where on earth do we go from here? :scratch: (The evidence is now so plain it's clearer than the egg on our faces!)


The majority of society seems content for the moment to continue playing ostriches.

[Akzle]

Where on earth do we go from here? [/SIZE]
How soon will it be before the Zionist puppet presidents drag us kicking and screaming into WW3 and finally into the complete New World Order? :thud:

me? away. away from people, where i can see and here ya coming for a mile in any direction. short of a drone strike.

i don't think it can or will happen, in this age of twitted enlightenment.

the earth will shake the human pestilence off soon enough.

bring back dinosaurs, i say.


The majority of society seems content for the moment to continue playing ostriches.

fact: no-one has ever seen an ostrich with it's head in the sand.

[Brian d marge]

World Zionist banks are angry with BRICS .... hence the Western Powers antagonism toward Putin and Russia being painted up as the imaginary bad guy's!

BRICS new development bank! .... Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa.

The crap that they expect us to swallow is worse than the script of one of their Hollywood B grade movies! :brick:

After growing up believing we were on the same side as the good guy's ... it's a bit hard to swallow when you find that reality is the complete opposite!

Where on earth do we go from here? :scratch: (The evidence is now so plain it's clearer than the egg on our faces!)

How soon will it be before the Zionist puppet presidents drag us kicking and screaming into WW3 and finally into the complete New World Order? :thud:
Weapons of mass distruction

Better dead than red

North korea south korea vietnam china japan

I mean back when i was a lad . . The long boats actually landed on the beach before giving the missus a good time

No miss infomation there

No secret deals

No hidden agendas

Just a raping and a pillaging and a hacking

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

bring back dinosaurs, i say

Only week away before they are voted back in

[oldrider]

The majority of society seems content for the moment to continue playing ostriches.

True enough and I am as guilty of that as anyone here, there are no apparent alternatives but of course that could be attributed to the efficiency of the media!

My support will be going to the "Democrats for Social Credit" because they are the only party offering an alternative to the current financial debt system.

Realistically they have not a hope in hell of being successful but at least I will maintain consistency by putting my voting power where my mouth is!

The Zionists and their United States of Israel (aka USA) have got us by the balls and the only obvious lifeline capable of standing up to them is BRICS! The other side! FFS!

[mashman]

War crimes acceptable? Parliament mulls amnesty for Kiev's troops in E. Ukraine (http://rt.com/news/186780-war-crimes-ukraine-amnesty/)... Savages.

[Katman]

Savages.

Hey, but they're the good guys, aren't they?

[mashman]

Hey, but they're the good guys, aren't they?

They r world police.

[Akzle]

War crimes acceptable? Parliament mulls amnesty for Kiev's troops in E. Ukraine (http://rt.com/news/186780-war-crimes-ukraine-amnesty/)... Savages.

didnt the us buy all the hitlerjews after camping season? on amnesty, then invented pharmac and refined their 'advanced interrogation' techniques...

[mashman]

didnt the us buy all the hitlerjews after camping season? on amnesty, then invented pharmac and refined their 'advanced interrogation' techniques...

I hear tell that something like that may well have happened... but for the betterment of mankind.

[Brian d marge]

The Zionists and their United States of Israel (aka USA) have got us by the balls and the only obvious lifeline capable of standing up to them is BRICS! The other side! FFS![/QUOTE]

New Zealand is poised to do well , I think its juggling 2 balls here ...being nice to America knowing china will become important .....

Stephen

[yokel]

fun times ahead, I can just tell haha

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/LZh3XX5TeLc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oldrider]

The Zionists and their United States of Israel (aka USA) have got us by the balls and the only obvious lifeline capable of standing up to them is BRICS! The other side! FFS!

New Zealand is poised to do well , I think its juggling 2 balls here ...being nice to America knowing china will become important .....

Stephen[/QUOTE]

True! ... This is where Key being prime minister worries me for obvious reasons! :shifty:

[R650R]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeKxOwbRc5w

[awa355]

Looking at the IS situation, I get the feeling that America is going to drag itself back into another prolonged middle east war.

Surely the day will come when the average American will have had a guts full of their govt's foreign policies.

[oldrider]

Looking at the IS situation, I get the feeling that America is going to drag itself back into another prolonged middle east war.

Surely the day will come when the average American will have had a guts full of their govt's foreign policies.

The average American has no idea who their government is or who they are there for! :rolleyes:

[avgas]

The average American has no idea who their government is or who they are there for! :rolleyes:
After seeing how they run the states......it surprises me that many know anything outside their own state.

[mashman]

"I don’t know much, but I know that people don’t like being ruled by foreigners. Ever.

Bearing that in mind, a bill known as H.Res.758 was recently introduced in the U.S. Congress. Here’s the full title: H.Res.758 – Strongly condemning the actions of the Russian Federation, under President Vladimir Putin, which has carried out a policy of aggression against neighboring countries aimed at political and economic domination."

(http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/12/03/made-in-the-usa-how-the-ukrainian-government-is-giving-away-citizenships-so-foreigners-can-run-the-country/#more-19505)

[Brian d marge]

"I don’t know much, but I know that people don’t like being ruled by foreigners. Ever.

Bearing that in mind, a bill known as H.Res.758 was recently introduced in the U.S. Congress. Here’s the full title: H.Res.758 – Strongly condemning the actions of the Russian Federation, under President Vladimir Putin, which has carried out a policy of aggression against neighboring countries aimed at political and economic domination."

(http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/12/03/made-in-the-usa-how-the-ukrainian-government-is-giving-away-citizenships-so-foreigners-can-run-the-country/#more-19505)
oh that will end in tears . .

Valeriy Voshchevskiy, deputy prime minister for infrastructure and ecology, said he wanted to privatize state holdings such as the railway and road-building monopolies.


lucky the didnt have acc or that would be on the list an all

stephen

[mashman]

oh that will end in tears . .

Only if Putin responds.

[mashman]

Well they passed it 411-10 (http://rt.com/usa/211527-representatives-condemn-russia-aggression/)... wonder if that's representative of how the population would have voted on the issue. I'm guessing not.

[oldrider]

Well they passed it 411-10 (http://rt.com/usa/211527-representatives-condemn-russia-aggression/)... wonder if that's representative of how the population would have voted on the issue. I'm guessing not.

Just goes to show how stupid Americans are when it comes to politically having the wool pulled over their eyes FFS!

Where America (read Zionist banks and Israel) goes the Western world blindly follows sounds like the British bullshit that we followed into WW1!

Putin is not the villain in this American is! :sick: Obama is just a sick joke!

[mashman]

Just goes to show how stupid Americans are when it comes to politically having the wool pulled over their eyes FFS!

Where America (read Zionist banks and Israel) goes the Western world blindly follows sounds like the British bullshit that we followed into WW1!

Putin is not the villain in this American is! :sick: Obama is just a sick joke!

True, but I think they're way beyond stupid. You know it. I know it. Too many people know it. Yet we persist. Go hoomans lol.

[SPman]

Well they passed it 411-10 (http://rt.com/usa/211527-representatives-condemn-russia-aggression/)... wonder if that's representative of how the population would have voted on the issue. I'm guessing not.
Well, 2.43% of the house of Reps voted against it.........probably about the percentage that actually think! As if Russia gives a toss any more - it's busy breaking all it's links with Europe and making deals with China and the East - and all the Gas that currently goes to Europe, will now be piped to Turkey when the current contracts expire! And paid for in turkish currency or gold.
If the US wants to wage war by depressing the price of oil, with the help of Saudi Arabia, and artificially depressing gold prices, more fool them. Russia is buying up gold while it's cheap (so's the missus) and I don't mind the reduced fuel prices, so, keep at it dickheads!

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.au/2014/12/disgusted-russia-officially-gives-up.html

[Brian d marge]

hahahahahaaaa go team meerika . . . .

are the powers that be deliberately crashing america??? one wonders

[Hans]

Wow. So many sick puppies on here.

[R650R]

I was watching news the other night and they blabbing about Russia invading the Ukraine WTF!!!

They just make shit up as they please. Russia never invaded Ukraine, it just protected its existing interests in Crimia as per existing treaties and agreements with Ukraine allowed, you know cause they already had Russian bases there FFS!!!!
The longer this goes on the more obvious even to the uniniated it becomes that this is a CIA style destabilisation of a country, not a real revolution...

[SPman]

Wow. So many sick puppies on here.Yeah - facts don't come across well, do they.

[Hans]

Yeah - facts don't come across well, do they.

Which "facts" would these be, bud? Been to Ukraine? Been to Russia? All this is, is a bunch of Kiwi salon communists masturbating over their new monstrous dictator idol. Sorry, but you guys have your heads so far up your asses, that you can see your teeth from the back.

[SPman]

The new finance minister of Ukraine, Natalie Jaresko, may have replaced her US citizenship with Ukrainian at the start of this week, but her employer continued to be the US Government, long after she claims she left the State Department. US court and other records reveal that Jaresko has been the co-owner of a management company and Ukrainian investment funds registered in the state of Delaware, dependent for her salary and for investment funds on a $150 million grant from the US Agency for International Development. The US records reveal that according to Jaresko’s former husband, she is culpable in financial misconduct...........These sorts of facts?
Salon communist? I'm no sort of -ist, thanks, but if you want to sling labels............

[Hans]

These sorts of facts?
Salon communist? I'm no sort of -ist, thanks, but if you want to sling labels............

Got to be credible if it comes from a site called "nakedcapitalism", right?

[Hans]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/10835317_334218413428634_8665949276801540447_o.jpg

This is what you're standing up for.

[R650R]

This is what you're standing up for.

No different than the Maori blessing the NZ army prob gives its weapons... We were all supposed to come into work on a Sunday for the blessing of a new truck once.... :facepalm:

Interesting talk, only watched the beginning and end so far.... interesting to hear a Russian promoting religion


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avbIhMi9OWg

[Hans]

No different than the Maori blessing the NZ army prob gives its weapons... We were all supposed to come into work on a Sunday for the blessing of a new truck once.... :facepalm:

Interesting talk, only watched the beginning and end so far.... interesting to hear a Russian promoting religion


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avbIhMi9OWg

Yeah, it's an oldie but a goodie, this one. The bit where he promotes religion is pretty much just playing to an audience, I think. Without wanting to have a go at you (at least in this instance), how do you manage to reconcile what he says with your support of Russia?

[R650R]

Without wanting to have a go at you (at least in this instance), how do you manage to reconcile what he says with your support of Russia?

Yes I accept that Russia Prob plays the same geopolitical games as the west but It seems to do it with some sort of self respect and honesty.

Where as the yanks are going round deliberately destabilising perfectly good countries and wrecking lives in the process to meet their own goals. Even inventing reasons with false flag terror attacks.

You seem to think Russia is evil with its KGB FSB secret police etc and USA is an angel. But we are incrementally going onwards the same type of society in slow motion

[oldrider]

Yes I accept that Russia Prob plays the same geopolitical games as the west but It seems to do it with some sort of self respect and honesty.

Where as the yanks are going round deliberately destabilising perfectly good countries and wrecking lives in the process to meet their own goals. Even inventing reasons with false flag terror attacks.

You seem to think Russia is evil with its KGB FSB secret police etc and USA is an angel. But we are incrementally going onwards the same type of society in slow motion

Since Gorbachev and the destruction of the wall and the Soviet break up, Russia (federation) has begun to quietly move forward with democratic freedoms.

The USA on the other hand is getting worse at employing destabilising tactics and thinks it won the cold war over Russia by acting like a bully boy worldwide.

Putin is a leader of his people - Obama is a Zionist puppet - the worm has finally turned only the Russian public have realised this and the USA public have not!

Unfortunately the Western puppet princes are so far up Obama and USA arseholes that they couldn't see out of their shit filled eyes even if they were open!

Who has caused more of the unnecessary destabilizing wars around the world Russia or the United states? Who benefits? Zionist Israel? Zionist USA?

Certainly not ordinary USA citizens! :no:

[Hans]

Delusional.

[oldrider]

What kept you so long ... like art it's in the eye of the beholder! :yes:

[Brian d marge]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/10835317_334218413428634_8665949276801540447_o.jpg

This is what you're standing up for.
hans , . , sorry mate but you have no idea what you are talking about

the popular press is so fkedupp and it is so hard to find out what is what .
. ,but when u do u will be shocked . . i mean as in . . .omg
try it

dont believe me . .choose 1 topic and follow it . though

railways . . acc , anything . .

if u are stil in denial try using a name of a large body of water


stephen

[SPman]

Got to be credible if it comes from a site called "nakedcapitalism", right?Comes from a site called "Dances With Bears" - John Helmer (Born and educated in Australia, then at Harvard University, Helmer has also been a professor of political science, and an advisor to government heads in Greece, the United States, and Asia. He is the first and only member of a US presidential administration (Jimmy Carter) to establish himself in Russia.)
Take a good look at the clowns in charge of Ukraine matey....a government who calls the inhabitants of their own country, sub-humans and cockroaches, and has punitive battalions behind the lines, styled after the Waffen SS, in deed if not name, who seem determined to wipe out russian speakers in a substantially russian speaking east, is fucked in the head! No wonder the east don't want any part of them. The US has their hand so far up Yatsenyuk's and Poroshenko's arse they're tickling their tonsils!

The west hates Putin with a vengeance because he has basically told them to get fucked. For all his shortcomings, he has pulled Russia back from the brink of being totally fucked over by the west.
Personally, I don't really care about Putin or Poroshenko, but, what's going on in Ukraine, is part of a wider game involving the US trying to get the better of Russia, and not succeeding. If it needs to, the US will sacrifice Ukraine without a second thought if it can get what it wants. Kiev is a nice place and the people were friendly, but, once again, they're being used as pawns in the game......

[Swoop]

Yes I accept that Russia Prob plays the same geopolitical games as the west but It seems to do it with some sort of self respect and honesty.

:crazy::killingme:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lo l::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lo l::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

"Gasp"

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Hans]

hans , . , sorry mate but you have no idea what you are talking about

the popular press is so fkedupp and it is so hard to find out what is what .
. ,but when u do u will be shocked . . i mean as in . . .omg
try it

dont believe me . .choose 1 topic and follow it . though

railways . . acc , anything . .

if u are stil in denial try using a name of a large body of water


stephen

How would you know what sort of idea I have when I talk about these things? I have spent quite a bit of time in both Russia and Ukraine and I speak both languages fluently. That leaves me in a position where I don't rely on the media to form my views. I also come from a country that enjoyed the "privilege" of being a satellite of the USSR once upon a time.
Russia is a barbaric, devious, untrustworthy and unreformed country and the people who defend her lack any sort of moral credit in my eyes.
Note that not once did I say what I think about the USA or they EU. A well founded hatred and distrust of Russia does not imply uncritical support of any other party, does it?

[Brian d marge]

Wow. So many sick puppies on here.
doeant say anything about living ,understanding. . .or even being able to formulate an argument

i must have miss read

[angle]

That leaves me in a position where I don't rely on the media to form my views. I also come from a country that enjoyed the "privilege" of being a satellite of the USSR once upon a time.
Russia is a barbaric, devious, untrustworthy and unreformed country and the people who defend her lack any sort of moral credit in my eyes.
Note that not once did I say what I think about the USA or they EU. A well founded hatred and distrust of Russia does not imply uncritical support of any other party, does it?

Feeling butthurt? Although I don't know what it feels like, it is probably an unpleasant feeling. It's okay, that's what forums are for, you can share your anguish with us. We will <strike>have a good chuckle</strike> appreciate your finest emotions of well founded hatred.

[Hans]

Feeling butthurt? Although I don't know what it feels like, it is probably an unpleasant feeling. It's okay, that's what forums are for, you can share your anguish with us. We will <strike>have a good chuckle</strike> appreciate your finest emotions of well founded hatred.

I've seen 10 year old children troll better than you. Best keep quiet when the adults are talking.

[SPman]

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa36/JonL_photo/Azovneonazi_zpsd8fdf25c.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/JonL_photo/media/Azovneonazi_zpsd8fdf25c.jpg.html)

There are absolutely NO Nazis fighting for Ukraine!
(Note NATO and Nazi flags side by side.
Isn't that just cute?)

You can always rely on the Azov battalion members to ham it up for the cameras........:rolleyes:

[Hans]

"There are absolutely NO Nazis fighting for Ukraine!"

Said no one ever.

Same as the Russians. Plenty of neo-nazis fighting on their side too. We should at least agree that this is a good thing, as long as they are killing each other.

Besides, Russia (or the USSR) would know a thing or two about siding with the Nazis, wouldn't they? At least until 1941, that is.

[Brian d marge]

"There are absolutely NO Nazis fighting for Ukraine!"

Said no one ever.

Same as the Russians. Plenty of neo-nazis fighting on their side too. We should at least agree that this is a good thing, as long as they are killing each other.

Besides, Russia (or the USSR) would know a thing or two about siding with the Nazis, wouldn't they? At least until 1941, that is.
they can hardly walk by now let alone carry a gun, their eyesight might be a bit dodgy as well.
One also wonders where they get replacement batteries for the hearing aide ?

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Brother Nates cousin on Russia

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/3Ate1fVVwg4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephen

[angle]

I've seen 10 year old children troll better than you. Best keep quiet when the adults are talking.
Was that an example of high quality "trolling", fit for a ten year old child? Thank you, much appreciated. I do feel schooled.



Same as the Russians.
Really? Can you please provide proof of Russian military involvement in the conflict.


Plenty of neo-nazis fighting on their side too.
I presume that by "their side" you mean the Donbass region? Once again, please provide proof of this claim.


Besides, Russia (or the USSR) would know a thing or two about siding with the Nazis, wouldn't they? At least until 1941, that is.
When did USSR side with nazis? As with previous statements, please do back this up with actual facts, because at present it seems that you are talking out of your butthurt arse.


We should at least agree that this is a good thing, as long as they are killing each other.

Well, this says a lot about your moral values, mental state and level of intellect to boot.

[pzkpfw]

When did USSR side with nazis?

You missed his "At least until 1941, that is.".

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

Ask Poland how that went.

[oldrider]

Brother Nates cousin on Russia. Stephen

Another good history lesson -- easy to verify and critique too! :niceone:

Already coming true here: http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/december/04/reckless-congress-declares-war-on-russia/?utm_sou

[angle]

You missed his "At least until 1941, that is.".

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
How does a non-aggression agreement equal to an alliance (as that what "siding with" means)? Non-aggression pacts were very common during that time and all major players in Europe had similar pacts with Nazi Germany for quite a number of years, including UK and France. USSR was the last state to sign a non-aggression pact with Germany.


Ask Poland how that went.
How what went? The non-aggression pact between Poland and Nazi Germany that was signed in 1934? It did not go too bad for Poland at first, especially when it invaded Czechoslovakia side by side with the German Nazis in 1938. Polish dreams of invading Russia again were cut short though, since Poland was so useless in the military sense that it was more of a nuisance than an ally and it was easier for Germany to take over Poland then support it.

[pzkpfw]

How does a non-aggression agreement equal to an alliance (as that what "siding with" means)? Non-aggression pacts were very common during that time and all major players in Europe had similar pacts with Nazi Germany for quite a number of years, including UK and France. USSR was the last state to sign a non-aggression pact with Germany.

Yeah, except France and Britain didn't invade Austria or Czechoslovakia (or Poland) to grab a piece of them when Germany went in. There was more to the Germany/USSR pact than "non-aggression".

You can say that's not "siding with", but you're just using weasel words.


How what went? The non-aggression pact between Poland and Nazi Germany that was signed in 1934? It did not go too bad for Poland at first, especially when it invaded Czechoslovakia side by side with the German Nazis in 1938. Polish dreams of invading Russia again were cut short though, since Poland was so useless in the military sense that it was more of a nuisance than an ally and it was easier for Germany to take over Poland then support it.

Missed the point. See above.

[Hans]

Yeah, except France and Britain didn't invade Austria or Czechoslovakia (or Poland) to grab a piece of them when Germany went in. There was more to the Germany/USSR pact than "non-aggression".

You can say that's not "siding with", but you're just using weasel words.



Missed the point. See above.

Oh they did much more than just have a non-agression pact. The Luftwaffe was built up and trained almost entirely on Soviet territory in secret, as Germany was still not allowed an airforce.
And not to forget that Barbarossa was a reaction to Stalin preparing for a drive eastwards. The only reason why Germany captured so much territory so quickly is that the Red Army was deployed in an offensive posture when the Germans invaded.

[oldrider]

Not everyone is enthusiastic about American congress decision to declare war on Russia!

Serious shit for the world? :sick: ... Link here: http://drsircus.com/world-news/psychopaths-rule-our-world-medicine-politics-and-war#utm_source=Dr+Sircus+Newsletter&utm_campaign=2a424649ae-Article_230&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ea98c09673-2a424649ae-9531509&mc_cid=2a424649ae&mc_eid=783acdf144

[awa355]

Not everyone is enthusiastic about American congress decision to declare war on Russia!

Serious shit for the world? :sick: ... Link here: http://drsircus.com/world-news/psychopaths-rule-our-world-medicine-politics-and-war#utm_source=Dr+Sircus+Newsletter&utm_campaign=2a424649ae-Article_230&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ea98c09673-2a424649ae-9531509&mc_cid=2a424649ae&mc_eid=783acdf144

This from the same blog site. http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/december/08/the-long-arm-of-us-law/

[R650R]

http://russia-insider.com/en/history_military/2014/12/06/09-38-29pm/nato_would_probably_lose_war_against_russia

[Hans]

http://russia-insider.com/en/history_military/2014/12/06/09-38-29pm/nato_would_probably_lose_war_against_russia

The author of this article may have some points.

However:
Taking territory is one thing, holding it is another. What exactly would the Russians do when the advance stops? Remember that the USSR would have lost against the Germans badly, had it not been for massive material support from the USA.

I forgot to ask: Why would the author be analysing a hypothetical offensive action by Russia? I thought they were supposed to be the peaceful party in this, opressed by the evil western world? Surely an analysis of a defensive action would have been more fitting?

[R650R]

The author of this article may have some points.

However:
Taking territory is one thing, holding it is another. What exactly would the Russians do when the advance stops? Remember that the USSR would have lost against the Germans badly, had it not been for massive material support from the USA.

I forgot to ask: Why would the author be analysing a hypothetical offensive action by Russia? I thought they were supposed to be the peaceful party in this, opressed by the evil western world? Surely an analysis of a defensive action would have been more fitting?

I think the article goes into that supply chain aspect which is an issue for all forces no matter what nation...

But we've seen from the past that Russias methods are to storm in at lightning pace, do some pest control and reinstall the status quo.
Making excuses and faking truck/car bombings from insurgents so they have an excuse to linger and build permananet bases and install puppet govts is more the western style.
Just look at the awesome way they handled the CIA puppet sakesvieeli in Georgia, they were in and out while the west was still deciding what their response would be.

The Russians could completely roll Ukraine in a day or two and NATO wouldn't do squat as Russia has already stated it would go nucluer in response to an attack by a superior force as they cant compete with the wests smart bombs and stealth attacks. The article is probably examining this option as the west is constantly provoking.
But Putin is smart, he is letting this CIA engineered uprising in Ukraine fester so that the imposters will be exposed and the local people will take care of the problem.

[yokel]

With the fall in oil price it'll be interesting to see whats Russia's next move?

[Brian d marge]

With the fall in oil price it'll be interesting to see whats Russia's next move?
if russia demanded energy payments in gold its game over

barclays league division1
eastern block one west combined nil

[Swoop]

if russia demanded energy payments in gold its game over
The issue is that there are no customers for Russian oil (grandly oversimplified statement, yes, but you get the idea).
If vast quantities of oil are not being moved out of Russia, then Putin's objective of re-instating the USSR gets a knock back.
He's already having to kiss chinese arse economically, and he doesn't realise how badly that can backfire.

The rebuild of the Russian military has taken a serious hit.

[Katman]

He's already having to kiss chinese arse economically.....

And we're not?

[Swoop]

And we're not?

There's a difference.

Russia "has" to.
We choose to. (because we like cheap, nasty crap and being arse-raped)

[Hans]

The issue is that there are no customers for Russian oil (grandly oversimplified statement, yes, but you get the idea).
If vast quantities of oil are not being moved out of Russia, then Putin's objective of re-instating the USSR gets a knock back.
He's already having to kiss chinese arse economically, and he doesn't realise how badly that can backfire.

The rebuild of the Russian military has taken a serious hit.

Correct. Worse still, Russia has to keep producing as the majority of their wells will simply freeze if they shut them down.

[Hans]

But Putin is smart, he is letting this CIA engineered uprising in Ukraine fester so that the imposters will be exposed and the local people will take care of the problem.

Putin is anything but smart. Putin is a fairly short sighted tactician, definitely not a strategist at all. That sort of comes naturally with being a fairly low level KGB spook. I wonder what the people that backed his rise (Ivanov and others) think of what he is doing right now. I also wonder how many of the pople around him want to see him gone, because he is bad for business.

He started something without having the faintest idea of what the endgame would look like and now he is riding a tiger and can't get off.

The West will simply do what the West has done once before. They will outlast Russia economically. With a bit of luck Russia will disintegrate properly this time. I have no desire to see the legacy state of Stalin, Yezhov, Dzerzhinsky, Molotov et al. last any longer than it has already.

[Brian d marge]

The issue is that there are no customers for Russian oil (grandly oversimplified statement, yes, but you get the idea).
If vast quantities of oil are not being moved out of Russia, then Putin's objective of re-instating the USSR gets a knock back.
He's already having to kiss chinese arse economically, and he doesn't realise how badly that can backfire.

The rebuild of the Russian military has taken a serious hit.
last time i checked to oil taps were in poor repair and they were in full flow and couldnt be regulated

[Brian d marge]

There's a difference.

Russia "has" to.
We choose to. (because we like cheap, nasty crap and being arse-raped)
not quite it goes back alooooong time
sort of like the fella ya tolerate but dont invite to xmas dinner

havent quite got my head around it yet

[Brian d marge]

Correct. Worse still, Russia has to keep producing as the majority of their wells will simply freeze if they shut them down.
thats the one i knew there was something about those wells

[Hans]

thats the one i knew there was something about those wells

Yup, that's the killer. They can't suspend production. They have to keep producing at a loss, or lose most of their production capacity. Also worth noting - If they do lose this capacity, they can't rebuild it, as those wells were drilled and exploited using western technology, which they no longer have access to (embargo).

[oldrider]

You really think Putin wants the USSR back? - More like the West (USA/Zionist Israel) that wants the USSR back and Putin (Eastern orthodox Christianity) out!

These guys go back a long time and have different objectives to what they show on the surface - USA NATO etc are simply pawns in their game! (Obama? Pffft)

The Muslim Sheik that Brian d marge posted had it all worked out proper IMHO! ... You don't have to shout, I am prepared to be proved wrong! :wait:

[Hans]

You really think Putin wants the USSR back? - More like the West (USA/Zionist Israel) that wants the USSR back and Putin (Eastern orthodox Christianity) out!

These guys go back a long time and have different objectives to what they show on the surface - USA NATO etc are simply pawns in their game! (Obama? Pffft)

The Muslim Sheik that Brian d marge posted had it all worked out proper IMHO! ... You don't have to shout, I am prepared to be proved wrong! :wait:

Dunno, who said that Putin wants the USSR back? All I said is that I maintain that Russia is an unreformed successor state to the USSR. Picture a West Germany that glorifies and pines for the good old days of the Third Reich, denies or glosses over the atrocities and is led by a fomer Abwehr or Gestapo agent...you get the gist of the analogy.

As for the Orthodox Church. Meh. Just another power hungry backwards institution that would ally itself with the devil (I'd argue it already has) in order to gain more power/influence. No saving graces with them, just as with the Catholics and any other church.

Hey, riddle me this, please: Assuming the world jewry is somehow out to get Russia, how does this tally with Putin, Medvedev, Ivanov and others being Jewish themselves? And yes, they are.
Does this mean that there are factions of Jews fighting among themselves, or is this part of a larger conspiracy that we do not fully understand?
Not trolling, btw, serious question.

[mstriumph]

............. Putin, Medved, Ivanov and others being Jewish themselves? And yes, they are......... don't know about the other two but Putin is Russian Orthodox ....

[Hans]

don't know about the other two but Putin is Russian Orthodox ....

Jewish by descent, not by a stated affiliation to a religion. Saint Paul was also Jewish, if you get my drift.

[SPman]

With the fall in oil price it'll be interesting to see whats Russia's next move?
It cost Saudi Arabia about $30/barrel to produce.The US shale oil costs about $70/barrel, Russian oil about $90/barrel. What's the current price - about $58/barrel - the only winner here , as usual, are the Saudis......it's costing the yanks as well - oh dear, how sad, never mind...

[yokel]

It cost Saudi Arabia about $30/barrel to produce.The US shale oil costs about $70/barrel, Russian oil about $90/barrel. What's the current price - about $58/barrel - the only winner here , as usual, are the Saudis......it's costing the yanks as well - oh dear, how sad, never mind...

It's all about timing, like coming into winter up there.
and then there is the timing the propaganda about the CIA torture of make believe 911 terrorists, gee 911 was carried out by box cutting terrorists! hahaha

[oldrider]

Dunno, who said that Putin wants the USSR back? All I said is that I maintain that Russia is an unreformed successor state to the USSR. Picture a West Germany that glorifies and pines for the good old days of the Third Reich, denies or glosses over the atrocities and is led by a fomer Abwehr or Gestapo agent...you get the gist of the analogy.

As for the Orthodox Church. Meh. Just another power hungry backwards institution that would ally itself with the devil (I'd argue it already has) in order to gain more power/influence. No saving graces with them, just as with the Catholics and any other church.

Hey, riddle me this, please: Assuming the world jewry is somehow out to get Russia, how does this tally with Putin, Medvedev, Ivanov and others being Jewish themselves? And yes, they are.
Does this mean that there are factions of Jews fighting among themselves, or is this part of a larger conspiracy that we do not fully understand?
Not trolling, btw, serious question.

Well there are many factions of Zionism not all of them agree or have the same agenda and yes they fight amongst themselves just like any family!

For instance: http://www.jewishjournal.com/dennis_prager/article/jews_devoted_to_hurting_jews

Look at Israel there is a lot of conflict within about what they are doing to the Arabs in Gaza but it never features in our news papers etc.

I have always thought that Jews as a people are extremely interesting because of their small % of world population yet for every conflict or activity they are prominent!

Anti Semitic champions make it very difficult to even mention or draw attention to them mention the word Jew and hear the gasps for miles! :wacko:

[oldrider]

Jewish by descent, not by a stated affiliation to a religion. Saint Paul was also Jewish, if you get my drift.

Jesus was/is a Jew Satan was/is a Jew ..... Define Jew? :confused:

[Hans]

Jesus was/is a Jew Satan was/is a Jew ..... Define Jew? :confused:

The Halakhic definition will do here, I think.

[oldrider]

The Halakhic definition will do here, I think.

True but it does get quite involved when you look into it! :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#Halakhic_perspective

Unless there is some judicial reason for asking it's whatever an individual is happy with should do it for them I reckon! :niceone:

[oldrider]

Interesting article on "Russian aggression"!: http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-myth-of-russian-aggression/5394632 .. :rolleyes:

[Brian d marge]

the problem is with the jewish people
is that they dont march up and down and shout
you know where you stand when they march up and down and make silly noises

life was simple , lots of satisfaction to be had from marching up and down and shouting

Alexei Sayle as Benito Mussolini: http://youtu.be/TA8Uav7EPlQ

[oldrider]

Real meaning of NATO response to (mythical) Russian aggression in Ukraine: http://www.globalresearch.ca/more-lies-from-nato-russias-aggression-against-ukraine-threatens-our-freedom-security-and-prosperity-anders-fogh-rasmussen/5399496 . Interesting translation! :shifty:

More on Americas war on Russia: http://www.globalresearch.ca/americas-war-on-russia-u-s-congress-virtually-100-unanimous-on-joining-ukraines-war-against-russia-a

[mstriumph]

Jewish by descent, not by a stated affiliation to a religion. Saint Paul was also Jewish, if you get my drift.

ohhhhh - like Jesus you mean ;) but without the good publicity.....

[Brian d marge]

ohhhhh - like Jesus you mean ;) but without the good publicity.....
the stable must have had a sign

[oldrider]

Hmmmm Ukraine news that doesn't hit the headlines and is suppressed in the USA!

Who really are the aggressors in Ukraine? ... Here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/obama-is-defeated-in-ukraine-status-quo-truce-lines-agreed/5405971

Seems USA is determined to wage war on Russia ... haven't they got better things to do? :rolleyes:

[mstriumph]

Hmmmm Ukraine news that doesn't hit the headlines and is suppressed in the USA!

Who really are the aggressors in Ukraine? ... Here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/obama-is-defeated-in-ukraine-status-quo-truce-lines-agreed/5405971

Seems USA is determined to wage war on Russia ... haven't they got better things to do? :rolleyes:

...... shoot unarmed male persons of colour?:confused:

[SPman]

Jesus was/is a Jew Satan was/is a Jew ..... Define Jew? :confused:As opposed to Zionism.....there is a difference.

[oldrider]

As opposed to Zionism.....there is a difference.

Zionism defined (well one page anyway) :http://www.zionismontheweb.org/zionism_definitions.htm

[awa355]

It is after page 3 so the thread can run off topic. Good to see some ethical standards being applied in warfare. Not. :Playnice:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/64152223/Islamic-State-issues-guidelines-for-sex-slaves

[Hans]

It is after page 3 so the thread can run off topic. Good to see some ethical standards being applied in warfare. Not. :Playnice:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/64152223/Islamic-State-issues-guidelines-for-sex-slaves

These are Sand People, after all. What do you expect?

[Brian d marge]

It is after page 3 so the thread can run off topic. Good to see some ethical standards being applied in warfare. Not. :Playnice:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/64152223/Islamic-State-issues-guidelines-for-sex-slaves
memri is a us backed organisation claiming to report on the middle east
im only just starting to appreiciate the koran as it relates to our times when i stumbled upon imran hosien . . if anything its made me realise just what we are not being taught
i would actually like to see at least a basic intro class into the koran at at least high school level

stephen

[Brian d marge]

Zionism defined (well one page anyway) :http://www.zionismontheweb.org/zionism_definitions.htm
that was an interesting read . . on the face of it looks like some rich americans . . of jewish persuation decided that the state of israel would be the way to go

i wonders why . . . . oil . money a deep port from which to ship oil from

just a thought

we are talking about rich greedy fkers who happen to be zionists

either way who ever they are they are making some appaling decisions

[oldrider]

that was an interesting read . . on the face of it looks like some rich americans . . of jewish persuation decided that the state of israel would be the way to go

i wonders why . . . . oil . money a deep port from which to ship oil from

just a thought

we are talking about rich greedy fkers who happen to be zionists

either way who ever they are they are making some appaling decitions

Zionists!

Underestimate them at your peril, they are some of the very best minds in the world and also the most persistent and focused people on earth!

That is what makes their various movements so diverse and also extremely interesting!

For such a small % of world population they as a people are almost totally involved in everything and losing is "not" part of their mental attitude or anatomy! :oi-grr:

[pzkpfw]

...

For such a small % of world population they as a people are almost totally involved in everything and losing is "not" part of their mental attitude or anatomy! :oi-grr:

Indeed, there's a part of their anatomy they decided they can lose, so they cut it off their poor babies ...

[avgas]

...... shoot unarmed male persons of colour?:confused:
Fuck you didn't tell me they were going to shoot the Lorax :eek5:

[avgas]

And we're not?
No - we have Durian on our tongues.

[oldrider]

Indeed, there's a part of their anatomy they decided they can lose, so they cut it off their poor babies ...

Well they cut mine off while they were at it! :thud: Mom sold it to a drover for a horse collar! :whistle:

[oldrider]

The battle of the banks ... prelude to the physical action of WW3? :http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-15/china-russia-dump-us-treasurys-october-foreigners-sell-most-us-stocks-2007?utm_sourc

Sounds like it's gonna be a really happy New Year doesn't it! :2guns: .. :facepalm: .. :bye:

[SPman]

Another report from Kiev.......


Chronicles of the Collapse of Kiev
Kiev, Ukraine: Nov 27 - Dec 16
Kiev of course has not collapsed yet, and it may somehow make it through it’s recent troubles relatively unscathed. But from what I’m seeing, this outcome seems less and less likely as time goes by. Still, it’s hard to wish this kind of trouble on most people. But sadly, a small, hard core group of idiots can force a whole nation to sink under the waves into the Ocean of Oblivion.
Ukraine is a country that doesn't have much of a reason to exist. Its whole Raison d’être is defined as anti-Russia. Beyond that, they’ve rarely had a country; never been much of anything; never aspired to be something. Their only aspiration is to not be Russia. They're the anti-Russia. Just like matter and anti-matter cannot coexist; Russia and anti-Russia cannot coexist.

Skilled Professionals Are Leaving Ukraine.
Well, should we really be surprised? Exactly what do they have too look forward to by remaining in Ukraine? A sinking economy? Deteriorating infrastructure? Continuing dysfunctional government? A nice 2 meter deep hole with one’s name on it? A Jekyll and Hyde educational system that metastasizes every couple of years depending who is in charge? A government run by Nazis? You can have all of this and a whole lot more if you remain in Ukraine; but if this isn't exactly your cup of tea, you're a whole lot better off somewhere else. And the exodus has begun.

The Antonov aircraft plant ceases production.
Well, it's certainly not the first, nor will it be the last industrial operation to shut down. But it’s certainly one of the largest industrial operations in all of Kiev. And now it's no more, at least temporarily. Because it seems the Boeing Corporation may be interested in taking over this plant. But trying to take over of vibrant operation with a lot of orders is a lot more expensive than taking over a factory that is idle. But from the USA's point of view, this is what the whole Ukrainian revolution was for. Ruin the economy, force formally vibrant companies to shut down operations, and let foreign corporations buy the whole operation for kopeks. And by buying into a depressed economy such as Ukraine, you can pocess a workforce that costs 50% less than a it would have cost two years ago.

Ukraine gets its own "Ministry of Truth."
Yes, it's 1984. And Ukraine has a new ministry. Officially, it's known as the "Ministry Of Information Policy." But journalists here and elsewhere are already referring to it as the "Ministry of Truth." The term “Ministry of Truth” comes from George Orwell's novel 1984, where the Ministry of Truth had absolutely nothing to do with the truth. It was strictly the propaganda arm of the government. So it was in the novel; so it is in Ukraine today. Journalists are up in arms about this new ministry, but really, they have no reason to complain. This is just the formalization of what's been happening ever since the junta came to power. I guess propaganda is just fine up to that point where the government gets to give its approval or disapproval. It makes you look less independent.

Propaganda trucks on the prowl.
It's getting more than just a little bit annoying by now, but three, four, five times a day, propaganda trucks go driving by with big PA speakers on the roof, informing everybody of what they should be outraged about today. But who has time for outrage when survival is on the line. I did see the local propaganda truck parked at a nearby police station a couple of days ago, and the propaganda stopped. But the trucks are back with your daily dose of propagandist thought.

The American carpetbagger in the finance ministry gets to work.
Well, that didn't take long did it? Here is some of the shock and awe in store for the citizens of Ukraine. No more free education and health care for you. Compulsory education is reduced from 11 years to nine years. Most students and teachers will lose access to free transportation. Most students will lose access to stipends and for the few that continue to get that, they will not be adjusted for inflation. Teachers with additional titles and degrees will no longer get extra pay for that. And many experienced teachers will see their pay drop to the level of a new graduate. Retirement age will be increased by 10 years for women and by five years for men. Those who worked during Soviet times may see an additional pension decrease because they were "working for the occupier country" during Soviet times.
On the taxation side, you'll be asks to prove the source of your income for any purchase over approximately $800. And if the value of the hrynia continue to decrease, that $800 valuation will be even less. If you can't prove the origin of your income, it will automatically be assumed to be undeclared income and you will pay an additional 30% for that purchase. Saving diligently or having relatives outside the country sending you funds will not be sufficient reasons to avoid the tax.
This is of course is just scratching the surface of life in the new Ukraine.
..............................................

[Brian d marge]

wealth transfer from antinov to a us of a company now theres a suprise
they will be getting student loans soon

[oldrider]

Russia was making overtures to Cuba and now suddenly the USA is interested in Cuba's welfare? - Well fuck me - what a coincidence! :corn:

[scrivy]

Russia was making overtures to Cuba and now suddenly the USA is interested in Cuba's welfare? - Well fuck me - what a coincidence! :corn:

Didnt see that coming......;)

[oldrider]

Was this the incentive that prompted Obama to seek new relations with Cuba? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/16/russia-reopening-spy-base-cuba-us-relations-sour .. :shifty:

More here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-17/obama-s-unambiguous-message-to-putin-about-cuba-we-win-and-you-lose.html

[Swoop]

I note a squadron of MiG 31's has been moved up to the border with Ukraine.
Reconnaissance duties to peek across the border...


The Antonov aircraft plant ceases production.
...But trying to take over of vibrant operation with a lot of orders ...
What propaganda is this?
Russia wants to place orders for some of the largest aircraft built there, to upgrade the ancient transport fleet it is operating. That isn't going to happen currently!

Putin-boy has made a boo-boo.

[Brian d marge]

there has been a lot of american armoured car im not versed on what is what
but on the train heading that way

[oldrider]

Obama on Putin and Ukraine: http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/apr/17/obama-dont-need-war-with-russia-video

Putin on Ukraine: http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/aug/30/vladimir-putin-ukraine-actions-reminiscent-nazi-siege-leningrad-video

Putin doesn't ever sound like the warmonger that Obama says he is .. so why don't the Yanks just stay home and sort out their own problems? :shifty:

[SPman]

A good article by Dennis Kucinich (former US Congressman), about how 3 people voted in the next round of Russia sanctions when there was no one else there.......


Under the guise of democratizing, the West stripped Ukraine of its sovereignty with a U.S.-backed coup, employed it as a foil to advance NATO to the Russian border and reignited the Cold War, complete with another nuclear showdown.
The people of Ukraine will be less free, as their country becomes a “military state,” goes into hock to international banks, faces structural readjustments, privatization of its public assets, decline of social services, higher prices and an even more severe decline in its standard of living.



http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/12/no_author/kangaroo-congress/

[Brian d marge]

A good article by Dennis Kucinich (former US Congressman), about how 3 people voted in the next round of Russia sanctions when there was no one else there.......



http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/12/no_author/kangaroo-congress/

would have been easier to have elected shonkey
he would have sold the assets and a police state within in minuites of his arrival
anythink 1 km per hour over the limit . . thats a paddling
the ukraine would be back in surplus within one election cycle

Duck and Cover Propaganda Film 1950's: http://youtu.be/N_1jkLxhh20

[R650R]

You cant trust the bloddie frenchies...... They better plant some more palm trees so the Spetsnaz can march in the shade like the germans did....

"The 400 Russian sailors who arrived at the port of Saint Nazaire to learn how to operate Russia’s first Mistrals, the Vladivostok and Sevastopol, departed for Russia on Thursday aboard the training frigate Smolny. The Mistral-class warship delivery was due to take place on October but it was blocked by the French government due to EU and U.S. imposed sanctions on Russia over the conflict in Ukraine. It remains unclear whether France will deliver the ships to Moscow."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF_dOEQDVzg

[R650R]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/18/rouble-collapse-putin-russia-president-economy-crisis

"Unsurprisingly, he also used the conference to rail against the west. Had Russia not annexed Crimea earlier this year, Putin said, the west would have found another reason to target his country, which he compared to a bear.

“Sometimes I wonder, maybe the bear should just sit quietly, munch on berries and honey rather than chasing after piglets, maybe then, they would leave it alone? But no, they wouldn’t, because they will always try to chain it up. And as soon as they chain it up, they will pull out its teeth and claws.”

By teeth and claws, Putin said he meant Russia’s nuclear weapons. The west was circling round to destroy Russia, so it could steal its natural resources, he continued. “Once they’ve taken out his claws and his teeth, then the bear is no longer necessary. He’ll become a stuffed animal.” "

[oldrider]

A good article by Dennis Kucinich (former US Congressman), about how 3 people voted in the next round of Russia sanctions when there was no one else there.......



http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/12/no_author/kangaroo-congress/

Positive proof IMHO that we have been bullshitted into believing that we are represented by the "good side" of this manufactured conflict!

NZ's government will back the same horse and take us into total involvement and commit our children and grandchildren to the inevitable slaughter fields FFS! :angry2:

Fuck the two faced warmongering USA government and their seedy underhand backers :2guns: Have we learned nothing at all from the past? :weird:

[mashman]

A good article by Dennis Kucinich (former US Congressman), about how 3 people voted in the next round of Russia sanctions when there was no one else there.......

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/12/no_author/kangaroo-congress/

:killingme... you get the society you pay for.

[Brian d marge]

:killingme... you get the society you pay for.
i didnt contribute

least not voluntary. . .

[oldrider]

USA blame Russia for downing plane without evidence - now they are blaming North Korea for hacking without evidence!

Playing the blame game without evidence and brow beating the world with their controlled media is getting to be a bit tiresome!

Meanwhile on the face of these accusations they (USA) just keep on ratcheting up the noose on personal liberties and freedoms! :shutup:

Then by using their power position in international trade agreements they literally force their trade partners and allies to follow their lead!

World domination by stealth - who needs enemies with friends like them? :facepalm:

[R650R]

Just remember what SONY stands for - standard oil of New York owned by guess who.......
And you have to love the name "Beaurau 121" oh so western.... and fake whe've all seen the stcikers on import bikes... if the Koreans did have an army of super hackers they would more likely be called:
Hak Suk Data Gone..... or Sonic Code Masterrate sideload.... etc

This is so fake, one of the crappier studios in Hollywood brings out a movie where the target audience are beer drinking morons anyway and they think Korea would care????
If they really wanted to hack and do damage they would make a deal with China who has backdoors into all the supplied computer chips sold to American defence contractors... Now Obama would be shitting bricks if every F35 suddenly had Gangnam style playing on the headsup display :)

[puddytat]

Psssst....

The John & Gerry show will announce within this term that they will talk with the Wanks on setting up a Wank base here.....
For our security of course & also their corporate interests in the TPPA.

So a little dickybird told me :msn-wink:

[oldrider]

Psssst....

The John & Gerry show will announce within this term that they will talk with the Wanks on setting up a Wank base here.....
For our security of course & also their corporate interests in the TPPA.

So a little dickybird told me :wink:

I think that little dicky bird must be a biker - he sure gets around! :ride:

[Swoop]

USA blame Russia for downing plane without evidence - now they are blaming North Korea for hacking without evidence!
There is plenty of evidence of north Korean and also chinese hacking. Getting anything done about it is a different matter entirely. Electronic footprints are left after an attack.
Mirrin college is the main centre and breeding ground for this type of individual, who is employed directly or "contracted" to their government.

In the US an entire "electronic" military command was established a few years back, USCYBERCOM. The USAF has their own as well now.

Sadly there is more going on in cyberspace than we will ever learn about. The chinese have their internet monitors who keep an eye on what the population is up to, on their heavily restricted internet. We are talking about quite a few people here... well into the millions.


Now Obama would be shitting bricks if every F35...
China is currently flying an aircraft that looks identical to the LM-F35. Hacking has provided all of the details for that, along with a list of other aircraft and military hardware. A recent sat photo shows an F-117 on a chinese airfield.

[avgas]

Just remember what SONY stands for - standard oil of New York owned by guess who.......
And you have to love the name "Beaurau 121" oh so western.... and fake whe've all seen the stcikers on import bikes... if the Koreans did have an army of super hackers they would more likely be called:
Hak Suk Data Gone..... or Sonic Code Masterrate sideload.... etc

This is so fake, one of the crappier studios in Hollywood brings out a movie where the target audience are beer drinking morons anyway and they think Korea would care????
If they really wanted to hack and do damage they would make a deal with China who has backdoors into all the supplied computer chips sold to American defence contractors... Now Obama would be shitting bricks if every F35....
While I think the hack is fake I think your facts are wrong even more so.

So lets just clear this up.
Sony - http://www.snopes.com/business/names/sony.asp
Bureau 121 - this is the "translation". Note that China has one also PLA Unit 61398. PLA Units often have names that mean more Asian. Like striking panda's of ultimate glory. But I am sure "Bridge over trouble waters" would sound as scary as Bureau 121. Note also that everyone knows stuxnet........but no one no's the US govt division that did the manual hack through it after stuxnet was released. Just that it was NCSD project. Stuxnet sounds cooler. Made my life a living hell for 2 years.

They are already shitting bricks on F35. The lists of faults is bottomless from people having to fly blind due to instruments only being in HUD's and the HUDs failing, to the plane not able to fly in the rain/lightning. Also the HUD has a motion delay so if you turn your head to fast it flickers.
But doesn't mean its not sexy.

[avgas]

The chinese have their internet monitors who keep an eye on what the population is up to, on their heavily restricted internet. We are talking about quite a few people here... well into the millions..
265,000 employees at the great firewall of china last time I checked (2009). You can probably have same again in proactive attacks.
US is catching up though. 40,000? Not that it matters as most of the US stuff is automated.

They know how to hack TOR now too.

[SPman]

...... Have we learned nothing at all from the past? :weird:Nope! "Leaders" still pulling the same shit and people still believing them......5000 yrs and humanity has learnt NOTHING!

[oldrider]

Nope! "Leaders" still pulling the same shit and people still believing them......5000 yrs and humanity has learnt NOTHING!

True - except for better ways to kill and maim each other - vast learning in that field! :yes:

[R650R]

While I think the hack is fake I think your facts are wrong even more so.

So lets just clear this up.
Sony - http://www.snopes.com/business/names/sony.asp
Bureau 121 - this is the "translation". Note that China has one also PLA Unit 61398. PLA Units often have names that mean more Asian. Like striking panda's of ultimate glory. But I am sure "Bridge over trouble waters" would sound as scary as Bureau 121. Note also that everyone knows stuxnet........but no one no's the US govt division that did the manual hack through it after stuxnet was released. Just that it was NCSD project. Stuxnet sounds cooler. Made my life a living hell for 2 years.

They are already shitting bricks on F35. The lists of faults is bottomless from people having to fly blind due to instruments only being in HUD's and the HUDs failing, to the plane not able to fly in the rain/lightning. Also the HUD has a motion delay so if you turn your head to fast it flickers.
But doesn't mean its not sexy.

Snopes is a well known disinfo site... Sony is standard oil, its why they make such crap electronic gear and crap movies as they are oil company origin not creative or designers.

The F35 faults are well known, and its definitely not sexy because of that. Its like that hot chick at the club who gave your mate the clap, she might have had her penicillian but your not going there ever....

[R650R]

http://indian.ruvr.ru/2014_12_19/Russian-Navy-ballistic-missile-submarine/

[avgas]

Snopes is a well known disinfo site... Sony is standard oil, its why they make such crap electronic gear and crap movies as they are oil company origin not creative or designers.

The F35 faults are well known, and its definitely not sexy because of that. Its like that hot chick at the club who gave your mate the clap, she might have had her penicillian but your not going there ever....
You sound like an angry old man who can't afford a good tv and never had sex with a hot woman. Just sayin.....
Sony is as far from Oil as can be. To make matters worse for you Standard Oil was DEAD, thats right as in non-existent, not only 60 years before Sony existed, but 30 years before a transistor existed.
So what you are claiming is the equivalent of saying the pyramids were made by Dinosaurs.

[Swoop]

Sony had been warned about their extremely lax electronic security a long time before this event. The choice was made to keep it "as is" and save some money Vs tighten and make it harder (but not impossible) to hack.
Sadly their response is only going to promote more hacking.

[R650R]

You sound like an angry old man who can't afford a good tv and never had sex with a hot woman. Just sayin.....
Sony is as far from Oil as can be. To make matters worse for you Standard Oil was DEAD, thats right as in non-existent, not only 60 years before Sony existed, but 30 years before a transistor existed.
So what you are claiming is the equivalent of saying the pyramids were made by Dinosaurs.

Now I've finished laughing and mopped up the spilt coffee I can respond.
I'm not sure where you got the angry old man bit or the rest of it but you've really said more about yourself there I suspect, projecting your own perceived inadequencies and insecurities into an attempt at insult.
Cant afford a good TV.... are you shittin me or what, they are ridiculously cheap now, the real problem is having the wall space and a room big enough for the correct viewing distance...
As for hot woman lol I don't feel the need to objectify them as some trophy to brag about so I'm not even going to go there except to say your very wrong lol

[R650R]

Perhaps NZ could get an airforce again this way....

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/549006/Falkland-Islands-defence-review-after-military-deal-between-Russia-and-Argentina

[awa355]

An interesting article on the value of the US military machine.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11379774

[avgas]

As for hot woman lol I don't feel the need to objectify them as some trophy to brag about so I'm not even going to go there except to say your very wrong lol
So you do have the clap?

[Brian d marge]

An interesting article on the value of the US military machine.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11379774
its all about money doesnt matter if 'we lose'

[SPman]

Perhaps NZ could get an airforce again this way....

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/549006/Falkland-Islands-defence-review-after-military-deal-between-Russia-and-Argentina
The Typhoons are better than the F35Bs will be anyway, so, what's the problem.....certainly a match for Su24s

anyway - Ukraine - from Anatoly Karlin

UKRAINE PREDICTIONS
Geopolitically, 2015 will be crunch time for the Poroshenko regime. Short of massive Western support, a fiscal crisis is virtually certain.
How will Poroshenko deal with it? A new assault against Novorossiya can't be excluded; military spending is rising to 5% of GDP. That's higher than any industrialized nation bar Israel. Totally mad for semi-bankrupt country like Ukraine, unless it's done for a specific, concrete purpose in mind. (The argument that it's just for defense against Russia is bogus. The DNR/LNR have no real offensive capability. The decision against invading Ukraine by Russia proper was taken back in April 2014 and since then the conditions for it have vastly deteriorated).

A new war can explain economic failure and provide a smokescreen for intensification of crackdown on pro-Russian dissent in Ukraine. Unfortunately, pensioners & laid off public workers are no match for neo-Nazi thugs when it comes to street brawls. The neo-Nazis are in control of the power ministries and they will remain well fed to the very end. The West will of course turn a blind eye to all this, feigning ignorance or insisting that they are marginal political forces.

IMO, there are two possible endings to the Euromaidan saga, which will actualize by next winter or 2016 at the latest:

Scene 1: With the junta's popularity at all time low due to economic collapse, pro-Russian forces come to power. This can either come via a second Maidan (though I don't consider that likely, to be honest - see above), or via Poroshenko making a turnaround to ward off attacks from nationalist and/or populist forces, either on the streets or amongst his elites. Poroshenko is more of an apparatchik than an ideologue so this is a real possibility.

Scene 2: Immiseration is ably countered with repression. Many dissenters and able-bodied Ukrainians leave for the EU or Russia, so you'll have fewer opponents - both of the economic and ideological variety - on the streets. If the junta survives 2016, I am sorry to say but chances are it will then stabilize and begin to recover. That's just the nature of things, sooner or later.

[mstriumph]

Nope! "Leaders" still pulling the same shit and people still believing them......5000 yrs and humanity has learnt NOTHING!
... and each successive government everywhere relies on that ... sad, innit.

[Brian d marge]

i think change is in the air . .and not just in the ukraine

[R650R]

We really should have an interesting military hardware shit thread.... but seeing as we already argued anout the f35 in here...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/31/new-u-s-stealth-jet-can-t-fire-its-gun-until-2019.html

WTF are these IT geeks so lame it takes four years to program a cannon to fire....

[Swoop]

We really should have an interesting military hardware shit thread.... but seeing as we already argued anout the f35 in here...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/31/new-u-s-stealth-jet-can-t-fire-its-gun-until-2019.html

WTF are these IT geeks so lame it takes four years to program a cannon to fire....
Priorities.
The -35 has just got clearance for the JMMBRU bomb rack for the SDB.
Integrating systems is more complex and as an example, just look at the Apache and the sighting/control system that uses. Now couple that with the $1million helmet used by the pilot on the -35 and the complexity grows.

All systems are labelled "dogs" by those without much knowledge (the media) in the initial stages of development and deployment to the forces. The -35 can manoeuvre better than an f-16 and is limited by the grey gooey blob up-front.

[Ocean1]

Nope! "Leaders" still pulling the same shit and people still believing them......5000 yrs and humanity has learnt NOTHING!

That's not quite true now, is it dude? I mean; beer, antibiotics, plumbing, teh internet...

And then, isn't it possible that you just figure humanity needs to learn shit because they don't agree with you?

Leme see now... yup: http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP102934.pdf

“Our moral minds evolved to unite us into teams, divide us against other teams, and convince ourselves that we are right and that other groups are wrong”

So, you're no less full of shit than anyone else, eh?

[R650R]

Priorities.
The -35 has just got clearance for the JMMBRU bomb rack for the SDB.
Integrating systems is more complex and as an example, just look at the Apache and the sighting/control system that uses. Now couple that with the $1million helmet used by the pilot on the -35 and the complexity grows.

All systems are labelled "dogs" by those without much knowledge (the media) in the initial stages of development and deployment to the forces. The -35 can manoeuvre better than an f-16 and is limited by the grey gooey blob up-front.

I think someones deliberately sabotaged the f35 project. Its hard to tell if its foreign power or rival manufacturer/pro drone crowd etc......
Just because soemthign has an overinflated price doesn't make it harder to work out or fix. The basic problem is the yanks cant build shit these days except for cool mountain bikes :)

[SPman]

So, you're no less full of shit than anyone else, eh? Takes one to know one, eh?

[oldrider]

How is the battle of the banks going between United States of Israel and BRICS bank of Russia these days? - All quite on the Western front? :corn:

[Ocean1]

Takes one to know one, eh?

Absolutely. But I'm not the one trying to claim some moral high ground based on nothing but my own opinion. Again.

Seriously dude, do you really consider yourself anything better than a slightly more intelligent chimp? 'Cause if there's a difference it's sure as fuck not your "morals".

[awa355]

How is the battle of the banks going between United States of Israel and BRICS bank of Russia these days? - All quite on the Western front? :corn:

Hand bags and brollies at full swing at the mo'.:facepalm::facepalm:

[Brian d marge]

full on currency war atm

[Swoop]

I think someones deliberately sabotaged the f35 project. Its hard to tell if its foreign power or rival manufacturer/pro drone crowd etc......
Just because soemthign has an overinflated price doesn't make it harder to work out or fix. The basic problem is the yanks cant build shit these days except for cool mountain bikes :)

No. Just modern bullshit manufacture, especially when a gubbinment is involved...
china has already copied the f-35 and has it flying.

[Swoop]

We really should have an interesting military hardware shit thread.... but seeing as we already argued anout the f35 in here...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/31/new-u-s-stealth-jet-can-t-fire-its-gun-until-2019.html

WTF are these IT geeks so lame it takes four years to program a cannon to fire....
Good to see the usual quality of misinformation bandied around in the "media"...
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/f-35-gun-problem-rumours-unfounded/

[scrivy]

full on currency war atm

Whats ass to mouth got to do with currency...:rolleyes:

[Brian d marge]

Whats ass to mouth got to do with currency...:rolleyes:
u need some to get one on the other

[mashman]

Donetsk shelled as Kiev 'orders massive fire' on militia-held E. Ukraine (http://www.rt.com/news/223791-ukraine-massive-shelling-donetsk/)

Ukraine army targeted Gorlovka with 500kg air bombs – Donetsk militia leader (http://rt.com/news/223887-ukraine-army-donetsk-bombs/)

[oldrider]

Donetsk shelled as Kiev 'orders massive fire' on militia-held E. Ukraine (http://www.rt.com/news/223791-ukraine-massive-shelling-donetsk/)

Ukraine army targeted Gorlovka with 500kg air bombs – Donetsk militia leader (http://rt.com/news/223887-ukraine-army-donetsk-bombs/)

Problem loading page? - Hmmm heading suggests that America and Israel are stepping up their war on Russia! :bash: Dumb and dumber 3 :mad:

[mashman]

Problem loading page? - Hmmm heading suggests that America and Israel are stepping up their war on Russia! :bash: Dumb and dumber 3 :mad:

They're just slow loading pages for some reason. NSA mainframe is likely overloaded.

[oldrider]

They're just slow loading pages for some reason. NSA mainframe is likely overloaded.

Slow loading for sure! :facepalm:

Sure enough Dumb and Dumber are at it again determined to "have their war against Russia" and even dumber are those that think Putin is the aggressor! :no:

But wait, what is this? A chance for peace? : http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/01/10/nato-trips-on-own-lies-with-u-turn-on-russian-aggressor.html

[SPman]

Well - it seems spring sales are early this year....

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.br/2015/01/novorussia-sitrep-intensive-combat.html

[mashman]

Slow loading for sure! :facepalm:

Sure enough Dumb and Dumber are at it again determined to "have their war against Russia" and even dumber are those that think Putin is the aggressor! :no:

But wait, what is this? A chance for peace? : http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/01/10/nato-trips-on-own-lies-with-u-turn-on-russian-aggressor.html

Do any of the represented public have an appetite for war?

[oldrider]

Do any of the represented public have an appetite for war?

NO - well if there are any that do it will not be for very long! :no:

Once they realise they can't change painfully bad situations with a remote they will lose interest in war really really fast! :shit:

Too late - those that orchestrate war are never involved in it and won't stop it until they are ready - win or lose! :no:

The only way to prevent war is not to participate in the first place! :mellow:

[Brian d marge]

dont worry i wont participate . . .to busy knitting names in me scarf

[mashman]

The only way to prevent war is not to participate in the first place! :mellow:

Sounds like a damned fine plan to me... oh, and replace any leaders that believe that war is the answer too.

[oldrider]

Bit of an update on Putin and Russia today! (Not from USA/Israeli point of view) :http://www.unz.com/ishamir/trolling-russia/