The Ukraine

[awa355]

Methinks Russia doesn't plan on Ukraine going anywhere in a hurry. :( Will be interesting to watch America's reaction.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11212273

[Akzle]

it scares the governments of big 'countries' when part of 'their dominion' tells the govt to 'tits or gtfo'

and, for too long, we havent had tits in nz.

Hey, what happened to scotland?

[Voltaire]

Historically Crimea is Russian anyway, they might want Alaska back next.

[MD]

I find it amusing how the Yanks are all upset and beating their chests over another Nation being so rude as to send it's troops into a trouble spot to 'help keep the peace' and how wrong that is. Like they have never done that.., again and again and again.

I like the Yanks, I appreciate how they eventually came to every ones aid in WWI and WWII but they need to remind themselves they invited themselves into Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, a few small South American independencies from memory. Russia has more rightful claim to be in Crimea than the Yanks had towards any of the places they 'stepped in to help'

But this is yet another hot spot that could see things turn to real big shit globally. Time to be nervous.

[awa355]

I cant see the Russians accepting the American military that close to their homeland, and I dont think the Americans would be that stupid.

[mashman]

Hey, what happened to scotland?

It's full of tits. September be the month of interest.

[mashman]

A few newsy folks were having a discussion on RT yesterday... a couple of them had the temerity to suggest that the US were funding the extremists. Did you see the Ukraine's presidents pad? Pretty special... hardly surprising he did a runner.

The US are a bunch of cheeky fuckers... they need a war to help their economy and as Syria doesn't look like they're playing ball and neither does Iran, maybe they'll have a pop at the auld enemy as they're running out of people to pick a fight with.

[SPman]

So...we have a corrupt Ukrainian president, lining his families pockets, Western Ukrainian population who want him out, and want to join the EU (for another good raping),the neo-nazi, anti -jewish, Ukrainian right wing nationalist who are armed to the teeth, and who the US think they can use to overthrow the regime (with the help of $50 billion in pay offs and incentives), Eastern Ukrainians who prefer to side with Russia, the Crimea, which Russia ceded back to the Ukraine in 1954, and which holds the Russian navy Black Sea Fleet, but which is predominantly Russian leaning, apart from the ethnic Tartars, who had it rough under Stalin and so prefer to side with the Ukrainian Nationalists......the US want the Ukraine in the west, so they can monster Russia a bit more and probably thought they could get hold of Sevastapol and install a fleet in the Black Sea...

Mike Whitney, a prominent US commentator says

Ukraine is gradually succumbing to the loving embrace of the New World Order where it will serve as another profit-generating cog in Wall Street’s wheel. That’s the theory, at least. It hasn’t occurred to the boneheads at the New York Times or Washington Post that Ukraine is rapidly descending into Mad Max-type anarchy which could spill over its borders into neighboring countries triggering violent conflagrations, social upheaval, regional instability or–god-help-us– WW3. The MSM sees nothing but silver linings as if everything was going according to plan. All of Eurasia, the Middle East and beyond are being pacified and integrated into one world government overseen by the unitary executive who defers to no one but the corporations and financial institutions who control the levers of power behind imperial shoji-screen. What could go wrong?

Naturally, Russia is worried about developments in Ukraine, but is unsure how to react. Here’s how Russian PM Dmitry Medvedev summed it up the other day:


“We do not understand what is going on there. A real threat to our interests (exists) and to the lives and health of our citizens. Strictly speaking, today there is no one there to communicate with … If you think that people in black masks waving Kalashnikovs (represent) a government, then it will be difficult for us to work with such a government.”


Clearly, Moscow is confused and worried. No one expects the world’s only superpower to behave this irrationally, to hop-scotch across the planet creating one failed state after another, fomenting revolt, breeding hatred, and spreading misery wherever it goes. At present, the Obama team is operating at full-throttle trying to topple regimes in Syria, Venezuela, Ukraine, and god-knows where else. At the same time, failed operations in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya have left all three countries in dire straights, ruled by regional warlords and armed militias. Medvedev has every right to be concerned.

Who wouldn’t be? The US has gone off the rails, stark raving mad. The architecture for global security has collapsed while the basic principals of international law have been jettisoned. The rampaging US juggernaut lurches from one violent confrontation to the next without rhyme or reason, destroying everything in its path, forcing millions to flee their own countries, and pushing the world closer to the abyss. Isn’t that reason enough to be concerned?

[Voltaire]

So business as usual then.
Is Free Market Economy Wall St Speak for lebenraum?
It was good the US helped out in WW1 and 2 ....eventually, but they sure have left a trail of destruction in the name of Democracy in the last 60 years.

[SPman]

So business as usual then.
.
Yep.
Obama might not get fully enthralled in a war with Russia, but his government are stupid enough to do so!
The last time they took on Russia, through the Georgian/Russian states of Ossetia, the Russkies stomped down hard! They have no illusions about "the West", although they may have been caught slacking a bit in regards to Ukraine. 'Twill be intersting - probably another total clusterfuck, but......

[ellipsis]

Looks like Russia is ready to sort it out....:spanking:

[SPman]

As regards all those poor protestors, "murdered" by the Ukrainian security forces....in an article by Pawel Kuczyński
What provided the rationale for the coup d'état was the killing of demonstrators by uniformed snipers, blamed on the previous government. The overthrown president, who has since fled to Russia, was accused of mass murder, and the new government demanded his extradition (a dumb move, since Russia's constitution forbids extradition). But there are serious questions about this interpretation of events: the special forces were never issued rifles and were never ordered to open fire on the protesters; there were quite a few special forces members themselves among those killed; the killings were carried out in such a manner as to incite rather than quell protest, by targeting women, bystanders and those assisting the wounded. The killings were followed by a professionally orchestrated public relations campaign, complete with a catchy name—“Heaven's Hundred” (“Небесная сотня”)—complete with candlelight vigils, rapid clean-up and laying of wreaths at the scene of the crime and so on.

[Akzle]

As regards all those poor protestors, "murdered" by the Ukrainian security forces....in an article by Pawel Kuczyński

mossa//
nah. Nothing to do with jews.

[Tazz]

http://rt.com/news/churkin-unsc-russia-ukraine-683/

[Swoop]

6 March 2014: Russia continues to deny that the armed and uniformed men who have taken control of the Crimean Peninsula are under Russian control. The men wear camouflage uniforms that have no insignia on them. These men speak Russian and the Russian government describes them as a local self-defence force.

The agreement with Ukraine allowing Russia to use a naval base in Crimea until 2046 allows Russia to station up to 25,000 military personnel in Crimea. Russian says these troops have stayed on their bases. The militiamen have surrounded Ukrainian military bases in Crimea and threatened to open fire on any Ukrainian troops who try to get in or out of these bases.

Ethnic Ukrainians are a minority in the “Autonomous Republic of Crimea” (created by the 1996 Ukrainian constitution). The two million people living in Crimea are 12 percent Crimean Tatars. These are descendants of Mongol and Turk troops that invaded the region in the 13th century. The invaders blended in with the existing inhabitants, who were a mélange of Greeks and even more ancient peoples who had been there for thousands of years. The Tatars became Moslem in the 14th century. Eventually the Ottoman Turkish Empire took control of Crimea but that was lost in 1775 when the Russian Empire drove the Turks out. Most Tatars fled to Turkey and elsewhere. Ukrainians and Russians moved in. When the communists took over in the 1920s they proceeded to kill or deport half the Tatars remaining in Crimea. The communists didn’t trust the Tatars. In 1944 all remaining Tatars were moved to Central Asia and while that expulsion was revoked in the late 1960s Tatars only began returning after the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991. The communists believed that the Tatars had collaborated with the invading Germans, and some did, but no more than other non-Russians. Today 24 percent of Crimeans are Ukrainian and 58 percent are Russian.

In Ukraine ethnic Ukrainians are the majority in most provinces, even those in western Ukraine that have the largest Russian minorities. Many Russians believe that Ukraine should be part of Russia, or at least parts of Ukraine should be. All this is connected with the bitter memories of the 13th century Mongol conquest of Russia (Moscow and north to Novogorad) and most of Ukraine and Belarus). This included the destruction of many major cities like Ryazan, Kolomna, Moscow, Vladimir and Kiev, which were all rebuilt, but some others were not.

It wasn’t until the 16th century that the Russians and Ukrainians managed to win back most of their territory. Meanwhile the Turks from the Ottoman Empire (centred in modern Turkey) were moving north and it took until the 19th century to push the Turks out of what became the Russian Empire and then the Soviet Union. All this is vividly remembered in Russia and is one reason why a lot of Russians want their empire back.
Ukraine and the West is angry about how Russia is so blatantly violating a 1994 agreement in which Ukraine allowed the ICBMs and other nuclear weapons based in its territory to be removed and destroyed. In return the West paid for it all and everyone (Russia and Western nations) agreed to never try and take territory from Ukraine.

This clause was meant mainly for Russia and at the time there were many Ukrainians who wanted to hold onto the nukes (despite the enormous costs and technical problems) as a way to discourage Russian from trying to regain control of Ukraine. It is because of this agreement that Russia is making an effort to hide its role in the takeover of Crimea. Some of the uniformed men who took control of Crimea are apparently locals, but the core of this “local militia” are men with obvious military training and who have been using those skills recently. Some may be civilian contractors (which Russia exports to some parts of the world) and some are probably Russian special operations troops.

Russia also got former Ukrainian president Yanukovych to write a letter requesting Russian military assistance in Crimea. Yanukovych insists he is still president of Ukraine and the Russians agree with this as well as providing Yanukovych with sanctuary and protection from prosecution for crimes he is accused of in Ukraine. Yanukovych was the Russian Plan A, what is going on in Crimea is Plan B. The 11,000 Russian troops stationed in Crimea are mostly support personnel for the naval base. The exception is 2,000 marines. In the last week another 7,000 troops, mostly infantry and special operations forces were flown in or arrived by ship.

All this is right out of the old Soviet playbook, where the communists rarely took direct control of a newly conquered territory but got locals to be figureheads who answered to Russia. That all fell apart between 1989 (when the East European nations Russian taken control of after World War II broke away) and 1991 (when the Soviet Union itself fell apart and most of the unhappy non-Russians forced to be part of the empire got their freedom). Russia is trying to use the old techniques to get their empire back. That’s not working out so well, although there have been some minor successes.

The last time Russian invaded a neighbour that used to be part of the Soviet Union was in 2008 against the tiny state of Georgia in the Caucasus. Russia admitted that its forces were there and suffered 350 casualties during the August 8-24 operations. This included 64 dead and three missing. Georgian casualties were higher. Through the end of 2008 Russian troops in the south Caucasus continue to allow local militias to cause mischief in Georgia.

Militia gangs in South Ossetia fired, and sometimes moved, across the border into Georgia. But if the Georgians fired back, or chased the militiamen into South Ossetia, they risked clashing with Russian troops. Russia was still punishing Georgia for not showing proper deference to Russia. This is something that is happening to all of Russia's neighbours who used to be part of the Soviet Union. Russia learned from the experience in Georgia, where its troops performed poorly and much of the world condemned this blatant act of aggression.

After the 2008 Georgia invasion Russia took over border security in South Ossetia (population 50,000) and Abkhazia (population 200,000), two areas formerly part of Georgia. In 2009, these two ethnic separatist areas declared themselves independent, but they have actually become part of Russia. Georgia has a population of 4.6 million, and a hostile relationship (going back centuries) with Russia. Now Georgia has to live with the fact that Russia annexed six percent of its population and territory and no one can do anything about it. This annoys the UN but Russia pays no attention to any criticism of its actions down there.

In 2009 Russia accused Ukraine of directly participating in the 2008 Georgia fighting. At that point Ukraine began getting nervous about the increasing pressure from Russia. The nightmare scenario became a Russian operation to reclaim Ukraine, or parts of it initially, as part of the "Russian Empire." The U.S. has lost its enthusiasm for letting Ukraine join NATO, thus leaving Ukraine on its own to deal with Russian aggression. With Ukraine Russia is trying to avoid the mistakes it made in Georgia.

Russia has long claimed ownership of the port of Sevastopol (the home of the Black Sea fleet) on the Crimean peninsula. The Russians lease the land, and provide jobs for some 20,000 Ukrainians. Russia considers the base sovereign Russian territory similar to a foreign embassy. Prominent Russians frequently and publically demand that Sevastopol become a part of Russia. The Ukrainians have always refused to even discuss this. The Ukrainians have always regarded Russia as a bully for this attitude towards Ukraine. Many senior Russians (including president Putin) openly claim that much of Ukraine actually is Russian territory. This includes Crimea and much of eastern Ukraine (where most of the industry and Russian speaking population is).

The Russians make the case that these areas were conquered by Russia after Russia took control of Ukraine and were only incorporated into Ukraine during the Soviet period for convenience, not to recognize what territory an independent Ukraine would have. Most of the Russian speaking Ukrainians want to remain part of Ukraine, but with a little more respect shown for ethnic minorities, like Russians and the Tatars in Crimea. The official Russian line is that Western agitators and agents are behind all the unrest in Ukraine. But the Russians have been saying that for over a century and still the Ukrainians resist. Meanwhile (since 2003) construction has been under way at Novorossiisk, on the east coast of the Black Sea (in Russian territory) to build an alternative to the old Soviet base of Sevastopol that is rented from Ukraine.

In Crimea the “Russian” troops are trying to coerce or persuade Ukrainian military commanders and government officials to defect to the newly declared independent Crimea. This is all right out of the old Soviet playbook and the Russians will get away with, for a while at least. The old playbook is full of tried and tested techniques for conquerors.

Russia apparently is not worried about the threat of economic sanctions. Although dependent on exports of oil and natural gas, Western Europe is also vulnerable because a quarter of their natural gas comes from Russia, via Ukraine. Alternatives to this piped in gas are expensive. Fracking to tap local supplies is an unpopular option but that would take years. In the meantime Russia is forcing the West to subsidize Ukraine.
I
n response to the current situation Russia has raised the price for natural gas it sells to Ukraine and cut off financial aid that former president Yanukovych had negotiated (in return for more Russian influence in how Ukraine was run). The U.S. and the West have promised nearly $20 billion in financial aid but no direct military assistance to help Ukraine keep the Russians out.

Meanwhile Russia can continue using the old Soviet playbook to take away other parts of Ukraine, especially in the western part of the country. The UN will make ugly noises but Russia has a veto in the UN and will use to block any UN interference with its Crimea operations.

The EU (European Union) imposed economic sanctions on former Ukrainian president Yanukovych and 17 of his associates. Yanukovych is believed to have stolen large amounts of money from the Ukrainian government. This became obvious when protesters invaded Yanukovych’s palatial estate outside Kiev and found that the cost of putting this estate together was far more than Yanukovych made as president, or before he became president.

5 March 2014: In Crimea pro-Russian militiamen seized two Ukrainian air defence missile battalions. The militiamen have fired a few warning shots at Ukrainian troops who tried to take control of their heavy weapons (or aircraft, armoured vehicles or ships) and the Ukrainians have backed off. Apparently the Ukrainian government has ordered its troops in Crimea to avoid bloodshed.

4 March 2014: Another Topol M ICBM, an RS-12M model, was successfully test fired. This model was Russia's first solid fuel ICBM, and the first (and so far only) mobile (via truck or railroad) ICBM. Test firings are essential to make sure older missiles will still fly or to test new features. Russia said the RS-12Ms had been equipped with new capabilities to deceive anti-missile defences.

3 March 2014: Ukraine ordered its military reserves to report for active duty and put the military on high alert. There is not much danger of a Russian invasion of Ukraine because Ukraine can deploy over a quarter million active duty and reserve troops. Russia still has a largely dysfunctional armed forces with fewer than 100,000 troops (paratroopers and special forces) that they can really rely on. Russian military staffs are quite good at calculating the “correlation of forces” for an operation and predicting the probability of success and that math does not look good when it comes to invading Ukraine.

The Russians Stavka (general staff) famously warned against going into Afghanistan in 1979 on the grounds that the lack of roads and railroads there prevented Russia from putting enough troops (the “correlation of forces”) into Afghanistan to quickly crush opposition. Russian political leaders ignored this and less than a decade later withdrew from Afghanistan because the general staff had been right. Russia could make the same mistake again, but that is not likely.

2 March 2014: The head of the Ukrainian Navy has been fired because he defected to the Russians.

1 March 2014: Russia has begun licensed production of the Israeli Searcher 2 UAV. This comes after seven years of negotiations and user trials by Russian troops. The Searcher 2 is a half-ton aircraft with an endurance of 20 hours, max altitude of 7,500 meters (23,000 feet) and can operate up to 300 kilometres from the operator. It can carry a 120 kg (264 pound) payload.

In 2012 Searcher 2 was tested in northern Russia during cold weather and performed well despite extremely colder temperatures (especially on the ground, where it got to -30 Centigrade). The Russian Air Force now has at least six Russian made Searcher 2s and is expecting to receive a lot more from the Russian factory.

28 February 2014: Russian electronics technicians took control of TV and telephone facilities in Crimea and cut all landline and Internet links for Crimea and hacked into nationwide cell phone systems to block the cell phone service of some Ukrainian government officials and put wiretaps on many others. Ukrainians hackers and engineers fought back but the Russians appear to have the edge.

27 February 2014: In Crimea armed pro-Russian “militia” seized buildings used by the local Crimean government.

26 February 2014: Russia announced training exercises for troops near Ukraine and unannounced inspections of military units to assure their readiness for combat. Russia also said it was seeking overseas bases for its troops and was talking to several countries about this. In the United States the intelligence agencies warned senior U.S. officials that Russia had moved additional troops, aircraft and ships into position for rapid movement into Ukraine. This was described as a continuation of moves the Russians had begun making since late last year when the Ukrainian unrest seemed likely to go on for a while.

24 February 2014: Ukraine issued arrest warrants for ousted president Viktor Yanukovych. Russia declared the ouster of Yanukovych to be illegal.
Russian officials disclosed that Algeria will order two more Kilo class diesel-electric subs. In late 2013 Algeria received the two Russian Kilo class boats they ordered in 2009. The Kilos weigh 2,300 tons (surface displacement), have six torpedo tubes and a crew of 57. China, India, Vietnam and Iran have also bought Kilos. Nearly 60 Kilos have been built or are under construction.

23 February 2014: In Ukraine parliament repealed a 2012 law that made other languages official languages (you could do public business in those other languages) if more than ten percent of the people in a province spoke that language. This was something Russia wanted because Russians are more than ten percent of the population in most of the eastern provinces. The law also affected Hungarian, Moldovan and Romanian speakers in some far western provinces.

In Sochi the Winter Olympics concluded. This was a success for Russia as none of the threatened Islamic terrorist attacks occurred.

[mashman]

In Sochi the Winter Olympics concluded. This was a success for Russia as none of the threatened Islamic terrorist attacks occurred.

What constitutes a terrorist attack?

[Swoop]

What constitutes a terrorist attack?

A black-widow turning herself into a not-very-smart-bomb.
A camel-jockey flying an aircraft into a high-rise (in Sochi this constitutes any 2 or 3 storey buildings or apartment blocks) since capitalist skyscrapers are "Nyet!".
Or anything that makes Saviour Of the Universe Putin have to interrupt his pre-breakfast bear-wrestling session, load a pistol and sharpen his knife then single handedly kill 200 men who threaten Glorious Russian Empire, before nipping down to the Nuclear Sub for a cold Stolichnaya.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The Ukraine is Russia's Middle easet.

Its full of fucking oil.

So, that gives you an idea of how it will go.

[mashman]

A black-widow turning herself into a not-very-smart-bomb.
A camel-jockey flying an aircraft into a high-rise (in Sochi this constitutes any 2 or 3 storey buildings or apartment blocks) since capitalist skyscrapers are "Nyet!".
Or anything that makes Saviour Of the Universe Putin have to interrupt his pre-breakfast bear-wrestling session, load a pistol and sharpen his knife then single handedly kill 200 men who threaten Glorious Russian Empire, before nipping down to the Nuclear Sub for a cold Stolichnaya.

But not destabilising a country to the point where the will strongly "disagree"?

(Stolichnaya = superb vodka)

[oldrider]

A few newsy folks were having a discussion on RT yesterday... a couple of them had the temerity to suggest that the US were funding the extremists. Did you see the Ukraine's presidents pad? Pretty special... hardly surprising he did a runner.

The US are a bunch of cheeky fuckers... they need a war to help their economy and as Syria doesn't look like they're playing ball and neither does Iran, maybe they'll have a pop at the auld enemy as they're running out of people to pick a fight with.

They don't need to pick wars, they are too busy running around doing Israel's dirty work for them! :facepalm:

The 50 stars on the USA flag should really be replaced by the star of David! :shifty:

[mashman]

They don't need to pick wars, they are too busy running around doing Israel's dirty work for them! :facepalm:

The 50 stars on the USA flag should really be replaced by the star of David! :shifty:

There was some recent talk about that... and a very important question was raised: Would that star be Hi(gh)-Viz.

[mashman]

Soooo there's gonna be a referendum as to whether Crimea will become a part of Russia. That'll fuck the USA up... I have to laugh at Obama and Cameron screaming for a peaceful solution. Sorry, but what isn't peaceful about people voting to be a part of 1 country or another? I wonder why the yanks and brits are using financial terrorism, I mean sanctions on Russia when it's Crimea that are deciding their own fate?

[oldrider]

Soooo there's gonna be a referendum as to whether Crimea will become a part of Russia. That'll fuck the USA up... I have to laugh at Obama and Cameron screaming for a peaceful solution. Sorry, but what isn't peaceful about people voting to be a part of 1 country or another? I wonder why the yanks and brits are using financial terrorism, I mean sanctions on Russia when it's Crimea that are deciding their own fate?

They could create their own referendum by voting with their feet and going back to Russia and leave Crimea where it belongs! FFS!

Next we will be having all the Australians that are over here (Russell Norman?) wanting to make us part of Australia! ...... Fuck that! :eek:

I would support the idea of him going home anytime soon! :yes:

[Voltaire]

Didn't this happen before when that bloke with the tash brought the Czech bit back into the Germanic fold.
Mr Chamberlain asked him nicely to stop and the Americans built refrigerators and Packards.
The Euros can't turn up the heat as Mr Putin can turn off the gas.
The Chinese are very quiet.....

[oldrider]

Didn't this happen before when that bloke with the tash brought the Czech bit back into the Germanic fold.
Mr Chamberlain asked him nicely to stop and the Americans built refrigerators and Packards.
The Euros can't turn up the heat as Mr Putin can turn off the gas.
The Chinese are very quiet.....

True!

It's going the same way and I would say that each time it does this it just gets messier and messier and further wide spread with more human suffering! :facepalm:

[SPman]

The Chinese are very quiet..... Whilst watching the US build more and more naval bases and facilities around the West Pacific rim.....

[Swoop]

The Chinese are very quiet.....


Whilst watching the US build more and more naval bases and facilities around the West Pacific rim.....

Errr. You had both better get your glasses checked as the Chinese are VERY busy.
Claiming all of the waters down to the Philippines, around Japan, Vietnam and into Russia.

So much turmoil is happening and using their normal little-by-little approach. Be prepared to see them occupy an area and then "negotiate" a peace (while holding onto that piece of territory).
The US Marines and fleets are moving into the Pacific for a reason.

[george formby]

Errr. You had both better get your glasses checked as the Chinese are VERY busy.
Claiming all of the waters down to the Philippines, around Japan, Vietnam and into Russia.

So much turmoil is happening and using their normal little-by-little approach. Be prepared to see them occupy an area and then "negotiate" a peace (while holding onto that piece of territory).
The US Marines and fleets are moving into the Pacific for a reason.

Ze Chinese are knocking out Aircraft Carriers & submarines like Kellogs make cornflakes. Ze Chinese like to see a return on their investments.

[Edbear]

Putin doesn't want to lose Crimea. It was "donated" to the Ukraine by Kruschev in 1954, and Putin would really like to get it back under Russian control. Naturally, being rich in oil and gas, and populated mainly by Russians, he would rather not let the US get hold of it through their "support" of the new Ukraine Govt.

Interesting to see the differences in response to an overthrow of a foreign government by coup depending on vested interests... .

[awa355]

Putin doesn't want to lose Crimea. It was "donated" to the Ukraine by Kruschev in 1954, and Putin would really like to get it back under Russian control. Naturally, being rich in oil and gas, and populated mainly by Russians, he would rather not let the US get hold of it through their "support" of the new Ukraine Govt.

Interesting to see the differences in response to an overthrow of a foreign government by coup depending on vested interests... .

The states would only intervene for the purpose of preserving human life and the rights of the people. Gas and oil wouldn't come into it ?? :no::no:

No??

[oldrider]

The states would only intervene for the purpose of preserving human life and the rights of the people. Gas and oil wouldn't come into it ?? :no::no:

No??

The United States would only be interested in "whats in it for Israel?" only then followed by whats in it for USA!

Check their track record on that here: http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-83-page-report-AIPAC-controls-USA.pdf ... it's not a secret! :no: Then check that against real life history! :shifty:

[Swoop]

Ze Chinese are knocking out Aircraft Carriers & submarines like Kellogs make cornflakes. Ze Chinese like to see a return on their investments.
Quite a relevant point but a little off-track.
Their carrier was bought from Russia and had a lot of work done to her. Upgraded systems and electronics for a start, since the Russians have never improved their carriers so they were 1990's technology.
Getting a CBG up to speed will be their challenge, since they are new to the game (well, sort of since their crews have been exchanging with the Brazilian carrier).

Their subs...
None of their boomers have sortied out for a proper cruise. "Hangar queens" could describe them. Their diesel boats are much the same. Coastal water sub fleet rather than a true blue waters force.

They have a very nice Army though. I bet Russia still doesn't like having to defend a border with China...

[SPman]

Why there probably won't be a war - Chris Hedges has a good take on it.....


Bulgakov, Mann and Roth understood that here is no real political ideology among decayed ruling elites. They knew that political debate and ideological constructs for these elites is absurdist theater, a species of entertainment for the masses. They warned that once societies enter terminal decay, in the end it is the blunt forces of censorship, relentless propaganda, coercion, fear and finally terror that keep a subdued population in check. Those who hold power in such systems are thieves who run a vast kleptocracy.

The rise of criminal elites is global. Vladimir Putin is a megalomaniac and a thug who is filling his personal coffers while he is the leader of Russia, and Barack Obama, who has more polish and sophistication, will fill his own pockets, as did the Clintons, with tens of millions of dollars as soon as he leaves office. The banks and corporations for which Obama works are as criminal and corrupt as the Central Bank of Russia, which calculates that perhaps two-thirds of the $56 billion that left Russia in 2012 might have been from money laundering, drug trafficking, tax fraud or kickbacks. The circular system of patronage and crime that exists worldwide varies from region to region only by degrees and style.

The Western political and financial elites, Putin knows, will not touch him. He and they are in the same decadent oligarchic class. They hold the same values. Europe depends on Russia for 40 percent of its natural gas, most of which passes through Ukraine. European bankers and corporations have no intention of jeopardizing that flow, or any current or potential trade deals. Corporate profit is the driving engine of foreign policy. Our elites do not care about human rights or civil liberties, not to mention the illegality of pre-emptive war, any more than Putin.
Ask the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen or Somalia how much moral authority the United States has to denounce the violation of the territorial integrity of a sovereign state. Ask those in our black sites and offshore penal colonies how much moral authority we have to denounce arbitrary detention and torture. Ask the 1.3 million people who lost their extended unemployment benefits in December or those who saw food stamp cutbacks reduce their spending by $90 a month how much moral authority there is left in our corporate state.

Our elites have established the most efficient system of mass surveillance in history. They have abolished most of our civil liberties. They have trashed our economy for their own personal gain. They have looted state treasuries and thrown working men and women aside. Satan is again holding a great ball. You are not invited. I am not invited. Only the gangsters will be there. Putin will be an honored guest. So will Obama.

[Tazz]

http://youtu.be/fWkfpGCAAuw

http://scgnews.com/the-ukraine-crisis-what-youre-not-being-told

[mashman]

http://scgnews.com/the-ukraine-crisis-what-youre-not-being-told

They're banking on people being stupid, not because they're stupid but because they either don't care or believe that they can do fuck all about it. At least those who don't care have a valid excuse.

[Banditbandit]

They're banking on people being stupid, not because they're stupid

Naaa .. people are stupid - 50% of the population is below average intelligence !!!

[oldrider]

Naaa .. people are stupid - 50% of the population is below average intelligence !!!

Average intelligence is like common sense ... one must always ask .... who's version are we using? :whistle:

[Brian d marge]

Have been posting stuff in "stupid world " but can add some stuff here

Have a look at;

The All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda" (Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language): Всеукраїнське об’єднання «Свобода», Vseukrayinske obyednannia "Svoboda"), translated as Freedom, is a Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine) nationalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_nationalism) political party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)#cite_note-osw-tadeusz-2) and currently one of the five major parties of the country.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)#cite_note-CESOlsza.C5.84skiUKel12-9) Five members of the party hold positions in Ukraine's government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Ukraine).


and

a prominent leader from the Right Sektor, Alexander Muzychko, brandishing an Ak-47 in parliament letting them know who is in charge. This is the same Alexander Muzychko who publicly vowed to fight "against Jews communists, and Russian scum" for as long as he lives.


Now look for this guy : Stanford University's Larry Diamond, I wonder what he does.........

http://democracy.stanford.edu/

snip:Larry Diamond is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and at the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies, where he also directs the Center for Democracy, Development, and the Rule of Law. He is the founding co-editor of the Journal of Democracy and also serves as Senior Consultant (and previously was co-director) at the International Forum for Democratic Studies of the National Endowment for Democracy. During 2002–3, he served as a consultant to the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) and was a contributing author of its report Foreign Aid in the National Interest. He has also advised and lectured to the World Bank, the United Nations, the State Department, and other governmental and nongovernmental agencies dealing with governance and development. His latest book, The Spirit of Democracy: The Struggle to Build Free Societies Throughout the World (Times Books, 2008), explores the sources of global democratic progress and stress and the prospects for future democratic expansion.


Oh oh and what about those pipe lines ..........


Im off to me Chinese lessons da Komrad Da !


Ho lee fook, Aka Da comrade , Citizen Defarge formally known as Stephen


oh and this was a classic !!!! Well done Victoria Numan , <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/2QxZ8t3V_bk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Brian d marge]

Needs to happen in Sheepy-ville

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/stK3YPz6WTc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephen

[Akzle]

Ak-47 in parliament letting them know who is in charge. This is the same Alexander Muzychko who publicly vowed to fight "against Jews communists, and Russian scum" for as long as he lives.


can i vote him for the boss of nz?

[Brian d marge]

can i vote him for the boss of nz?

Don Key would wet himself

Stephen

[mashman]

Naaa .. people are stupid - 50% of the population is below average intelligence !!!

Nah, that's just shit teachers and a lack of wanting to live up to their potential. Intelligence is never a guarantee of greatness innit.

[oldrider]

Does anyone else see the similarity between Hitler and Putin here?

Where Hitler used armed force, Putin is following Gandi's non agressive approach, enhanced nationalism and of course someone to blame!

Other than that the result looks like it will go exactly the same as Hitlers activities before WW2! Where will this all end up? :shifty: WW3? :eek:

[Brian d marge]

It has been said

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[SPman]

Putin doesn't want to lose Crimea. It was "donated" to the Ukraine by Kruschev in 1954, and Putin would really like to get it back under Russian control. Naturally, being rich in oil and gas, and populated mainly by Russians, he would rather not let the US get hold of it through their "support" of the new Ukraine Govt.

Interesting to see the differences in response to an overthrow of a foreign government by coup depending on vested interests... .
A brief history of Crimea...

The history of Crimea’s integration with Ukraine is all but non-existent in history. In the mid-1400s, Crimea was a Tartar state founded by a descendant of Genghis Khan. In 1478, Crimea became a tributary of the Ottoman Empire until 1774, when it became an independent state, essentially liberated by Russia (until Russia annexed it in 1783). Crimea remained part of Russia until 1917, when it declared its independence again (which lasted about a year before it was occupied by the Soviet Union, then the Germans, then the Soviet Union again). In 1921, Crimea was granted “autonomy,” which was interrupted by the German occupation (1941-1943), then stripped by the Soviet Union in 1945. Still part of the Soviet Union in 1954, Crimea was organizationally transferred to Ukraine, also part of the Soviet Union. In 1991, Crimea became the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, within the Soviet Union, followed by a power struggle with the Kiev government in the aftermath of the Soviet Union’s break-up. In early 1992, the Crimean Parliament proclaimed its independence as the Republic of Crimea and adopted its first constitution (which it amended the same day to say Crimea was part of Ukraine); within weeks, Crimea dropped its proclamation of self-government in an apparent trade-off for greater autonomy from Kiev, but the dispute over the status of Crimea continued to feed political turmoil until Ukraine executed a constitutional coup. On March 17, 1995, the Kiev government scrapped the Crimean constitution, sacked the Crimean president and eventually established, with obvious irony, the “Autonomous Republic of Crimea” – which still had periodic anti-Kiev eruptions and now (as of March 16) has voted to join (http://mg.co.za/article/2014-03-17-crimea-ballot-count-shows-majority-vote-to-join-russia) the Russian Federation.

Contrary to many media reports (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/12/crimea-vote-join-russia-ballot-no-option_n_4947557.html) that the Crimean referendum (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/world/europe/crimea-vote-does-not-offer-choice-of-status-quo.html) offered no real choice, the actual ballot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea) had two rather different and nuanced choices:


1. “Do you support rejoining Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?”

2. “Do you support restoration of the 1992 Constitution of the Republic of Crimea and Crimea's status as a part of Ukraine?”



Stripped bare, the mainstream media typically say the referendum offers “no choice” because the media don’t like the actual choice offered: independence or join Russia. What the media don’t say is that they want Crimea to have a choice to remain under the thumb of Kiev with no greater “autonomy.” Of course that’s intellectually dishonest,but it does illuminate the absurdity of arguing about Ukraine’s “territorial integrity,” which has included Crimea for about twenty of the past 600 years.
Most of that time Crimea seems to have been seeking independence from large countries that refused to leave it alone

[mashman]

Histoire and disgruntled 3rd parties

It's amusing that the democratic west would go so hard out against Russia for leaving it up to Crimea to exercise its democratic right to decide it's own fate. Gotta love the hypocrisy. My favourite part is when the leader of an insignificant country, like, hmmmm, NZ perhaps stands up and denounces Crimea's decision in the name of the people living in that insignificant country.

[awa355]

I wonder if the Crimeans were given any option back in 1954 as to, if they wanted to be 'gifted' to the Ukraine, I somehow doubt it.

Western sanctions against Russia would be a waste of time. The Russian people know what ' going without and starvation ' is all about. They have had the worst that could be thrown at them over the last hundred years.

When you read of the suffering and hardship under Stalin, WW2 etc, There isn't much the west could do to break the resolve of the people, ( if the people were united against the sanctions ). Putin wont give a shit about the people. Although, today, the average Russians are in a better position to speak out and decide for themselves.

[Oscar]

It's amusing that the democratic west would go so hard out against Russia for leaving it up to Crimea to exercise its democratic right to decide it's own fate. Gotta love the hypocrisy. My favourite part is when the leader of an insignificant country, like, hmmmm, NZ perhaps stands up and denounces Crimea's decision in the name of the people living in that insignificant country.

Firstly, I'll say that Crimea probably is best suited to be part of Russia.

However, the vote was rigged by the Russians (there was no option that said "I want to stay part of Ukraine".
As usual your outrage is based on ignorance.

[awa355]

You really have to wonder about the ' Pro Western ' Ukraine govt. This article wont help the situation.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11222945

" Ukraine to hold military exercises with US, Britain "

[Oscar]

You really have to wonder about the ' Pro Western ' Ukraine govt. This article wont help the situation.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11222945

" Ukraine to hold military exercises with US, Britain "

Yet again, the West seems to be siding with some decidely dodgy characters.
It's hard to see the good guys in this fight.

[mashman]

Firstly, I'll say that Crimea probably is best suited to be part of Russia.

However, the vote was rigged by the Russians (there was no option that said "I want to stay part of Ukraine".
As usual your outrage is based on ignorance.

So the links SPman posted were lies?

[mashman]

Yet again, the West seems to be siding with some decidely dodgy characters.
It's hard to see the good guys in this fight.

They're called the people. I know I know it's a radical concept for you to grasp, but hey, I am an optimist.

[Oscar]

They're called the people. I know I know it's a radical concept for you to grasp, but hey, I am an optimist.


Another typically irrelevant & silly effort. I comment about western Govts backing a dodgy regime and you blather about “the people”.
What people? Ukraine or Russian?
And what have this nebulous group got to do with US/EU Foreign policy?

[Oscar]

So the links SPman posted were lies?

No.
Read them again.

[mashman]

Another typically irrelevant & silly effort. I comment about western Govts backing a dodgy regime and you blather about “the people”.
What people? Ukraine or Russian?
And what have this nebulous group got to do with US/EU Foreign policy?

I told you you wouldn't get it... and as you have repeatedly not been able to get it, I'm not going to tell you, you have not earned the right.


No.
Read them again.

2. “Do you support restoration of the 1992 Constitution of the Republic of Crimea and Crimea's status as a part of Ukraine?”

Looks pretty straight forwards to me.

[Oscar]

I told you you wouldn't get it... and as you have repeatedly not been able to get it, I'm not going to tell you, you have not earned the right.



You really are a pompous git, aren't you?
Your comment was about "The People". Well, in this case not all of the people can get what they want, so no, I don't get it.




2. “Do you support restoration of the 1992 Constitution of the Republic of Crimea and Crimea's status as a part of Ukraine?”

Looks pretty straight forwards to me.

The original 1992 Consititution was used to declare Crimea independant.

[mashman]

You really are a pompous git, aren't you?
Your comment was about "The People". Well, in this case not all of the people can get what they want, so no, I don't get it.

:killingme, yeah, that's me all over man, you got me bang to rights.
That wasn't the context under which my answer was given.



The original 1992 Consititution was used to declare Crimea independant.

Which month are you referring too?

[Brian d marge]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/63/%D0%9B%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BF_%D0%92% D0%9E_%D0%A1%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0.J PG


Who do you think you are kidding you little Hitler?
If you think we're on the run,
We are the boys who will stop your little game.
We are the boys who will make you think again.
'Cus who do you think you are kidding you little Hitler?
If you think the Ukraine’s been done!

Stephen

[Oscar]

:killingme, yeah, that's me all over man, you got me bang to rights.
That wasn't the context under which my answer was given.


Context? What was your context?
What does a man have to do to "earn the right"?

Making sense is not one of your things, is it?



Which month are you referring too?

Do you not know the meaning of the word "original"?

[mashman]

Context? What was your context?
What does a man have to do to "earn the right"?

Making sense is not one of your things, is it?

Meh.



Do you not know the meaning of the word "original"?

You mean as at 1st January 1992?

[Oscar]

Meh.



You mean as at 1st January 1992?

No. The FIRST constitution on 1992.

[mashman]

No. The FIRST constitution on 1992.

Is that the one they're talking about? Coz 1992 starts on 1st January 1992 00:00:01.

[Oscar]

Is that the one they're talking about? Coz 1992 starts on 1st January 1992 00:00:01.

Shesh.

On 5 May 1992 parliament declared Crimea independent and passed the first Crimean constitution the same day.

[mashman]

Shesh.

On 5 May 1992 parliament declared Crimea independent and passed the first Crimean constitution the same day.

You missed a bit: "which was yet to be approved by a referendum to be held 2 August 1992".

Still, the ballot didn't specify a date, so as of the 1st day of 1992, was Crimea part of the Ukraine?

[awa355]

Reading this article today, I'm beginning to wonder if Putin really believes he can return to the ' good ole days ' . I think this guy is not afraid of military action from any quarter.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11229410

[Brian d marge]

Reading this article today, I'm beginning to wonder if Putin really believes he can return to the ' good ole days ' . I think this guy is not afraid of military action from any quarter.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11229410

Watch his body language in debates between him and Obama

its like fk this , I dont want to be here and why am I wasting my time with this bozo I should just wack him....


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/m48nKkUs3Wc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Wack

Stephen

[mashman]

Watch his body language in debates between him and Obama

its like fk this , I dont want to be here and why am I wasting my time with this bozo I should just wack him....

Wack

Stephen

T'would be an interesting way to start WW3. Putin speaks English doesn't he?

[Brian d marge]

T'would be an interesting way to start WW3. Putin speaks English doesn't he?

oh yes

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/FiFAeluRtao" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephen

[SPman]

Meanwhile....

Before the political and geographical issues are settled, the Western looting of Ukraine has already begun. The Western media, doesn’t tell any more truth about IMF “rescue packages” than it does about anything else. The media reports, and many Ukrainians believe, that the IMF is going to rescue Ukraine financially by giving the country billions of dollars.


Ukraine will never see one dollar of the IMF money. What the IMF is going to do is to substitute Ukrainian indebtedness to the IMF for Ukrainian indebtedness to Western banks. The IMF will hand over the money to the Western banks, and the Western banks will reduce Ukraine’s indebtedness by the amount of IMF money. Instead of being indebted to the banks, Ukraine will now be indebted to the IMF.



Now the looting can begin. The IMF loan brings new conditions and imposes austerity on the Ukrainian people so that the Ukraine government can gather up the money with which to repay the IMF. The IMF conditions that will be imposed on the struggling Ukraine population will consist of severe reductions in old-age pensions, in government services, in government employment, and in subsidies for basic consumer purchases such as natural gas. Already low living standards will plummet. In addition, Ukrainian public assets and Ukrainian owned private industries will have to be sold off to Western purchasers.



Additionally, Ukraine will have to float its currency. In a futile effort to protect its currency’s value from being driven very low (and consequently import prices very high) by speculators ganging up on the currency and short-selling it, Ukraine will borrow more money with which to support its currency in the foreign exchange market. Of course, the currency speculators will end up with the borrowed money, leaving Ukraine much deeper in debt than currently.



The corruption involved is legendary, so the direct result of the gullible Maiden protesters will be lower Ukrainian living standards, more corruption, loss of sovereignty over the country’s economic policy, and the transfer of Ukrainian public and private property to Western interests.

[awa355]

Meanwhile....

Before the political and geographical issues are settled, the Western looting of Ukraine has already begun. The Western media, doesn’t tell any more truth about IMF “rescue packages” than it does about anything else. The media reports, and many Ukrainians believe, that the IMF is going to rescue Ukraine financially by giving the country billions of dollars.



Now the looting can begin. The IMF loan brings new conditions and imposes austerity on the Ukrainian people so that the Ukraine government can gather up the money with which to repay the IMF. The IMF conditions that will be imposed on the struggling Ukraine population will consist of severe reductions in old-age pensions, in government services, in government employment, and in subsidies for basic consumer purchases such as natural gas. Already low living standards will plummet. In addition, Ukrainian public assets and Ukrainian owned private industries will have to be sold off to Western purchasers.




The corruption involved is legendary, so the direct result of the gullible Maiden protesters will be lower Ukrainian living standards, more corruption, loss of sovereignty over the country’s economic policy, and the transfer of Ukrainian public and private property to Western interests.

Sounds exactly what the TPPA will bring to NZ. The IMF is simply a gathering of American banks.

[Brian d marge]

Meanwhile....

Before the political and geographical issues are settled, the Western looting of Ukraine has already begun. The Western media, doesn’t tell any more truth about IMF “rescue packages” than it does about anything else. The media reports, and many Ukrainians believe, that the IMF is going to rescue Ukraine financially by giving the country billions of dollars.


Ukraine will never see one dollar of the IMF money. What the IMF is going to do is to substitute Ukrainian indebtedness to the IMF for Ukrainian indebtedness to Western banks. The IMF will hand over the money to the Western banks, and the Western banks will reduce Ukraine’s indebtedness by the amount of IMF money. Instead of being indebted to the banks, Ukraine will now be indebted to the IMF.



Now the looting can begin. The IMF loan brings new conditions and imposes austerity on the Ukrainian people so that the Ukraine government can gather up the money with which to repay the IMF. The IMF conditions that will be imposed on the struggling Ukraine population will consist of severe reductions in old-age pensions, in government services, in government employment, and in subsidies for basic consumer purchases such as natural gas. Already low living standards will plummet. In addition, Ukrainian public assets and Ukrainian owned private industries will have to be sold off to Western purchasers.



Additionally, Ukraine will have to float its currency. In a futile effort to protect its currency’s value from being driven very low (and consequently import prices very high) by speculators ganging up on the currency and short-selling it, Ukraine will borrow more money with which to support its currency in the foreign exchange market. Of course, the currency speculators will end up with the borrowed money, leaving Ukraine much deeper in debt than currently.



The corruption involved is legendary, so the direct result of the gullible Maiden protesters will be lower Ukrainian living standards, more corruption, loss of sovereignty over the country’s economic policy, and the transfer of Ukrainian public and private property to Western interests.

Yup and if you have difficulty

you

http://nsnbc.me/2014/03/25/ukraine-pravy-sector-leader-muzychko-shot-dead/

wack em

and the US thought they could be such nice friends together

Stephen

ps dont forget it will have to sell its assets .... wealth transferance 101

[Hinny]

As regards all those poor protestors, "murdered" by the Ukrainian security forces....in an article by Pawel Kuczyński
What provided the rationale for the coup d'état was the killing of demonstrators by uniformed snipers, blamed on the previous government. The overthrown president, who has since fled to Russia, was accused of mass murder, and the new government demanded his extradition (a dumb move, since Russia's constitution forbids extradition). But there are serious questions about this interpretation of events: the special forces were never issued rifles and were never ordered to open fire on the protesters; there were quite a few special forces members themselves among those killed; the killings were carried out in such a manner as to incite rather than quell protest, by targeting women, bystanders and those assisting the wounded. The killings were followed by a professionally orchestrated public relations campaign, complete with a catchy name—“Heaven's Hundred” (“Небесная сотня”)—complete with candlelight vigils, rapid clean-up and laying of wreaths at the scene of the crime and so on.

Shades of 'Smith's Dream'. -('Let Sleeping Dogs Lie')

[Hinny]

Naaa .. people are stupid - 50% of the population is below average intelligence !!!

To be pedantic - I think this should read 50 % are below median intelligence.

[Hinny]

Meanwhile....

Before the political and geographical issues are settled, the Western looting of Ukraine has already begun. The Western media, doesn’t tell any more truth about IMF “rescue packages” than it does about anything else. The media reports, and many Ukrainians believe, that the IMF is going to rescue Ukraine financially by giving the country billions of dollars.


Ukraine will never see one dollar of the IMF money. What the IMF is going to do is to substitute Ukrainian indebtedness to the IMF for Ukrainian indebtedness to Western banks. The IMF will hand over the money to the Western banks, and the Western banks will reduce Ukraine’s indebtedness by the amount of IMF money. Instead of being indebted to the banks, Ukraine will now be indebted to the IMF.



Now the looting can begin. The IMF loan brings new conditions and imposes austerity on the Ukrainian people so that the Ukraine government can gather up the money with which to repay the IMF. The IMF conditions that will be imposed on the struggling Ukraine population will consist of severe reductions in old-age pensions, in government services, in government employment, and in subsidies for basic consumer purchases such as natural gas. Already low living standards will plummet. In addition, Ukrainian public assets and Ukrainian owned private industries will have to be sold off to Western purchasers.



Additionally, Ukraine will have to float its currency. In a futile effort to protect its currency’s value from being driven very low (and consequently import prices very high) by speculators ganging up on the currency and short-selling it, Ukraine will borrow more money with which to support its currency in the foreign exchange market. Of course, the currency speculators will end up with the borrowed money, leaving Ukraine much deeper in debt than currently.



The corruption involved is legendary, so the direct result of the gullible Maiden protesters will be lower Ukrainian living standards, more corruption, loss of sovereignty over the country’s economic policy, and the transfer of Ukrainian public and private property to Western interests.

This is what is happening in NZ now.
Possibly as a result of Bill English borrowing all that money we didn't need. (His rationale was that it was at such good interest rates.)
The IMF imposes rules of governance for countries to which it loans money. Those rules can be seen in play in NZ. The legacy of which is dire for the future of this country.

[Brian d marge]

This is what is happening in NZ now.
Possibly as a result of Bill English borrowing all that money we didn't need. (His rationale was that it was at such good interest rates.)
The IMF imposes rules of governance for countries to which it loans money. Those rules can be seen in play in NZ. The legacy of which is dire for the future of this country.
They are doing the same in the Ukraine as per Greece as per NZ

the Bank hands every minister the same four-step programme.

Step One is privatization

Step Two is capital market liberalization.

Step Three: market-based pricing ( prices going up due to shareholders etc Mighty river power etc !)

Step Four: free trade ( read wealth transfer )

oh They know when and where if the food price index goes above 210 the population get pissed This mean you can impose law and order ............( rules that allow wealth transfer )

Yeeehaaaa

Stir up a bit of far right , shoot a few civilians ( both sides were shot with the same ammo ! ) and bring in the Americans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine

On a side note

werent the troops the Russians moved in the 72nd ? airborne ? I mean these boys are all volunteers , the same ones that moved into Georgia? . If these boys are tied down in the Crimea , whose protecting Syria? much to Israels delight !

yup my bad it was the 76th airborne ,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76th_Airborne_Division

these boys rock!

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Gosh they are good

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/DFpKwEm43n0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

He raises some good points , and remember folks the IMF are in like Flynn and as per my post above they transfer wealth ..

Step One is privatization

Step Two is capital market liberalization.

Step Three: market-based pricing ( prices going up due to shareholders etc Mighty river power etc !)

Step Four: free trade ( read wealth transfer )

Damn they are good

Stephen

[awa355]

Gosh they are good



He raises some good points , and remember folks the IMF are in like Flynn and as per my post above they transfer wealth ..

Step One is privatization

Step Two is capital market liberalization.

Step Three: market-based pricing ( prices going up due to shareholders etc Mighty river power etc !)

Step Four: free trade ( read wealth transfer )

Damn they are good

Stephen

Surely, you aren't suggesting that the west want to control the Ukraine because of their oil and gas fields ???:no::no::no:

I dont believe it, bring democracy, Maccas, KFC, Wendy's , maybe, but wanting the gas, oil ??, Nah, dont believe that for a minute. The West are the ' good ' guys , arent they??

[mashman]

FINALLY I hear what I've been expecting for some time. The UN are looking at removing Russia's vote from the council. Syria and Iran here they come.

[oneblackflag]

FINALLY I hear what I've been expecting for some time. The UN are looking at removing Russia's vote from the council. Syria and Iran here they come.

That would be awasome news.

[Brian d marge]

And what would be the outcome of the removal of the vote
Not much I suspect as Russia and others are busily moving away from the UN and the petrodollar
I might even get me TV before xmas

Yeah

Stephen

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[awa355]

Speaking of the UN, apart from promoting humanitarian causes, has it had its day? Seems as a global policeman its pretty much a toothless tiger.

[R650R]

That would be awasome news.

Only if your a sunglass and lead salesman.
Syria is one of the few decent seaports Russia has access to for exports and defence support

http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-extends-its-control-over-the-black-sea-and-strategic-waterways/5374021

and from another source:
"There’s a simple fact about Russia. It’s been doomed by geography to never be a great European naval power, because of one thing. For almost the entirety of its history, it had no warm-water port and no access to the Mediterranean. The Russians have been trying to correct that problem since before the time of Peter the Great, and Peter, builder of the Russian Empire, put the attempt into overdrive

To improve his nation’s position on the seas, Peter sought to gain more maritime outlets. His only outlet at the time was the White Sea [click to see how far north this is] at Arkhangelsk.

The Baltic Sea was at the time controlled by Sweden in the north, while the Black Sea was controlled by the Ottoman Empire in the south. Peter attempted to acquire control of the Black Sea; to do so he would have to expel the Tatars from the surrounding areas.

As part of an agreement with Poland which ceded Kiev to Russia, Peter was forced to wage war against the Crimean Khan and against the Khan’s overlord, the Ottoman Sultan. Peter’s primary objective became the capture of the Ottoman fortress of Azov, near the Don River [and near Crimea on the Black Sea]. In the summer of 1695 Peter organized the Azov campaigns to take the fortress, but his attempts ended in failure.

Peter returned to Moscow in November of that year and began building a large navy. He launched about thirty ships against the Ottomans in 1696, capturing Azov in July of that year. On 12 September 1698, Peter officially founded the first Russian Navy base, Taganrog.

the Crimean warm-water port is a prize no Russian tsar, or emperor, or president will ever let go without a fight. Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine because Ukraine was also Russian (and because Khrushchev was Ukrainian). But Crimea is and was both different and special. It looks like Putin, like a century of Russians before him, is taking it back. What will the Ukrainians, whoever that is these days, do?

But more to the point for us, what will Obama and the U.S. do? Putin has called their bluster and their bluff."

[SPman]

Looks like things are hotting up...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/08/donetsk-barricades-kharkiv-protest-ukraine-russia
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.aspx?id=211573
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38176.htm

Kerry is getting stuck into Russia for "an illegal and illegitimate effort to destabilize a sovereign state and create a contrived crisis with paid operatives across an international boundary," Kerry told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Kerry called the demonstrations in eastern Ukraine a "contrived pretext for military intervention just as we saw in Crimea."

Well, he should know, the CIA wrote the book on subversive, invasive, destabilising militants and subversives and has used it to effect since 1952!

[R650R]

Its started...


http://youtu.be/NximnnKKm8U

[awa355]

I'm beginning to side with the Russians more and more over this issue. Not for a moment, do I believe in the integrity of the western leadership, especially that of the Americans. One side is as bad as the other when it comes to lying, and ulterior motives.

[oneblackflag]

No one can be perfect but I'd far rather be living under Western rule than say the likes of Russia or China.

I would love to see Putin's undercover special forces bombed to shit by the Ukraine in East Ukraine... As for the ethnic Russians Putin is trying to 'protect' they should apply for a Russian Visa if they hate the Ukraine so much :wavey:

[R650R]

No one can be perfect but I'd far rather be living under Western rule than say the likes of Russia or China.



Do we really live any different these days:
Random military style checkpoints in urban areas to check wof/rego
Must carry papers at all times or be detained and fined (drivers license)
Cannot stage a protest in city without a permit from the authorities
Restricted weapons ownership aka gun license
Unable to alter housing without permit or consent and then with restrictions
Plenty of propaganda shows promoting military and police on TV (how many cops shows do we need, at least they are entertaining :) )
Leaders exempt from law (aka aunty Helens dash to rugby)

[oneblackflag]

Do we really live any different these days:
Random military style checkpoints in urban areas to check wof/rego
Must carry papers at all times or be detained and fined (drivers license)
Cannot stage a protest in city without a permit from the authorities
Restricted weapons ownership aka gun license
Unable to alter housing without permit or consent and then with restrictions
Plenty of propaganda shows promoting military and police on TV (how many cops shows do we need, at least they are entertaining :) )
Leaders exempt from law (aka aunty Helens dash to rugby)

I see what your saying, and I hate all that crap.... but but but Russia (Putin) is a baddie.

[Voltaire]

and because Khrushchev was Ukrainian, he reminds me of Bob Hoskins :lol:

Google says he was born in Russia....sources.....gotta love them. ;)

[oldrider]

Do we really live any different these days:
Random military style checkpoints in urban areas to check wof/rego
Must carry papers at all times or be detained and fined (drivers license)
Cannot stage a protest in city without a permit from the authorities
Restricted weapons ownership aka gun license
Unable to alter housing without permit or consent and then with restrictions
Plenty of propaganda shows promoting military and police on TV (how many cops shows do we need, at least they are entertaining :) )
Leaders exempt from law (aka aunty Helens dash to rugby) True! :shifty:

Alternative "cooking" shows make them (Cop shows) seem to be entertaining, it's all part of the propaganda drive!

As for the ethnic Russians Putin is trying to 'protect' they should apply for a Russian Visa if they hate the Ukraine so much ... toatally agree with that comment! :niceone:

[Brian d marge]

Do we really live any different these days:
Random military style checkpoints in urban areas to check wof/rego
Must carry papers at all times or be detained and fined (drivers license)
Cannot stage a protest in city without a permit from the authorities
Restricted weapons ownership aka gun license
Unable to alter housing without permit or consent and then with restrictions
Plenty of propaganda shows promoting military and police on TV (how many cops shows do we need, at least they are entertaining :) )
Leaders exempt from law (aka aunty Helens dash to rugby)

If you want to see a militarized police force , have a look at what uncle same has been up to !

hollow points ........ for the police !!!

Go figure

Stephen

29 day till ma tv comes

[oneblackflag]

If you want to see a militarized police force , have a look at what uncle same has been up to !

hollow points ........ for the police !!!

Go figure

Stephen

29 day till ma tv comes

Well they do have highly armed citizens to 'protect'.

[SPman]

From Mike Whitney...

.
Scholz said the Washington’s objective was “to deny Ukraine a role as a bridge between Eurasian Union and European Union….They want to bring Ukraine under the NATO control” and sabotage the prospects for “a common economic zone from Lisbon to Vladivostok.”

Bingo. That’s US policy in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with democracy, sovereignty, or human rights. It’s about money and power. Who are the big players going to be in the world’s biggest growth center, that’s all that matters. Unfortunately for Obama and Co., the US has fallen behind Russia in acquiring the essential resources and pipeline infrastructure to succeed in such a competition. They’ve been beaten by Putin and Gazprom at every turn. While Putin has strengthened diplomatic and economic relations, expanded vital pipeline corridors and transit lines, and hurtled the many obstacles laid out for him by American-stooges in the EC; the US has dragged itself from one quagmire to the next laying entire countries to waste while achieving none of its economic objectives.

So now the US has jettisoned its business strategy altogether and moved on to Plan B, regime change. Washington couldn’t beat Putin in a fair fight, so now they’ve taken off the gloves....Putin’s main objective is to make money. In contrast, the US wants to dominate the Eurasian landmass, break Russia up into smaller, non-threatening units, and control China’s growth. That’s the basic gameplan. Also, the US does not want any competitors......

Washington does not want a peaceful solution. Washington wants a confrontation. Washington wants to draw Moscow into a long-term conflict in Ukraine that will recreate Afghanistan in the 1990s. That’s the goal, to lure Putin into a military quagmire that will discredit him in the eyes of the world, isolate Russia from its allies, put strains on new alliances, undermine the Russian economy, pit Russian troops against US-backed armed mercenaries and Special Ops, destroy Russian relations with business partners in the EU, and create a justification for NATO intervention followed by the deployment of nuclear weapons on Ukrainian territory. That’s the gameplan...........

On Sunday, Ukrainian imposter-President Oleksandr Turchynov announced a plan to launch a “large-scale anti-terrorist operation” in Donetsk and Lugansk to avoid a “repeat the Crimean scenario in Ukraine’s east.” The operation will involve “military forces, anti-terrorist forces and law enforcement of Ukraine” and is scheduled to begin at 9 AM yesterday morning.

It’s clear, that Turchynov is trying to lure Russia into a fight, just as it’s clear that the president would not have approved the crackdown without a green light from Washington.

Putin will not allow Russian-speaking people to be killed in Ukraine, that’s the red line the junta government must not cross if they want to avoid a confrontation with Russia. Unfortunately, Washington wants Russia to invade so it can put its “proxy war” plan into motion.



Whitney is pretty much on the mark in European affairs......looks like it could still all turn to custard....

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/15/is-putin-being-lured-into-a-trap/

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/11/ukraine-lies-and-realities/ (http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/15/is-putin-being-lured-into-a-trap/)

[scrivy]

......looks like it could still all turn to custard....



Mmmm.... I like custard.... - just not 'that' type...:no:

[scrivy]

No one can be perfect but I'd far rather be living under Western rule than say the likes of Russia or China.


Lol!! Yip the US is far better......

Obama has:
Used Executive Privilege in regards to Fast & Furious gun running scandal. When Government misconduct is the concern Executive privilege is negated.

23 Executive Orders on gun control - infringement of the 2nd Amendment

2 Executive actions mandating private health information on patients be turned over to NICS - Violation of HIPPA law.

Executive Order bypassing Congress on immigration – Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; Article II Section 3

Unilaterally issued new exemptions to immigration restrictions law that bars certain asylum-seekers and refugees who provided “limited material support” to t errorists. – Article 1 Section 1

Issued directive instructing ICE to NOT enforce immigration laws in certain cases. Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3

Expanded executive action for amnesty to illegal immigrant relatives of DREAM Act beneficiaries. Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3

Executive action directing DHS that almost all immigration offenses were unenforceable absent a separate criminal conviction. Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3

Information memorandum telling states that they can waive the work requirement for welfare recipients, thereby altering the 1996 welfare reform law. - Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress

NDAA – Section 1021. Due process Rights negated. Violation of 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th Amendments.

Executive Order 13603 NDRP – Government can seize anything

Executive Order 13524 – Gives INTERPOL jurisdiction on American soil beyond law enforcement agencies, including the FBI.

Executive Order 13636 Infrastructure Cybersecurity – Bypassing Congress Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress

Attempt to tax political contributions – 1st Amendment

DOMA Law – Obama directed DOJ to ignore the Constitution and separation of powers and not enforce the law. ” he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3
Dodd-Frank – Due process and separation of powers. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau writing and interpreting law. Article. I. Section. 1

Drone strikes on American Citizens – 5th Amendment Due process Rights negated

Bypassed Congress and gave EPA power to advance Cap-n-Trade

Attempt for Graphic tobacco warnings (under appeal) – 1st Amendment

Four Exec. appointments – Senate was NOT in recess (Court has ruled unconstitutional yet the appointees still remain)

Appointing agency czars without the “advice and consent of the Senate.” Violation of Article II, Section 2

Obama took Chairmanship of UN Security Council – Violation of Section 9.

ACA (Obamacare) mandate – SCOTUS rewrote legislation and made it a tax because there is no Constitutional authority for Congress to force Americans to engage in commerce. SCOTUS has no authority to Legislate or lay taxes. Article I Section 1 & 8.

Contraceptive, abortifacients mandate violation of First Ammendment

Healthcare waivers – No president has dispensing powers

Refuses to acknowledge state’s 10th Amendment rights to nullify Obamacare

Going after states (AZ lawsuit) for upholding Federal law (immigration) -10th Amendment.

Chrysler Bailout -TARP - violated creditors rights and bankruptcy law, as well as Takings and Due Process Clauses – 5th Amendment (G.W. Bush also illegally used TARP funds for bailouts)

The Independent Payment Advisory Board (appointees by the president). Any decisions by IPAB will instantly become law starting in 2014 – Separation of Powers, Article 1 Section 1.

Congress did not approve Obama’s war in Libya. Article I, Section 8, First illegal war U.S. has engaged in. Impeachable under Article II, Section 4; War Powers Act – Article II Section 3.

Obama falsely claims UN can usurp Congressional war powers.

Obama has acted outside the constitutional power given him – this in itself is unconstitutional.

With the approval of Obama, the NSA and the FBI are tapping directly into the servers of 9 internet companies to gain access to emails, video/audio, photos, documents, etc. This program is code named PRISM. NSA also collecting data on all phone calls in U.S. – Violation of 4th Amendment.

Plans to sign U.N. Firearms treaty – 2nd Amendment.

The Senate/Obama immigration bill (approved by both) raises revenue – Section 7. All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives

Obama altered law – (A president has no authority to alter law) Delayed upholding the Employer Mandate Law (ACA) until 2015 – Individual Mandate will be enforced. A President does not have that authority – Article. I. Section. 1. All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States; The president “shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed” -Article II, Section 3; Equal Protection Clause -14th Amendment.

Obama altered law - ACA Medicare cuts delayed until 2015. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

Obama altered law – Enforcement of eligibility requirements for ACA delayed until 2015. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

Obama wavered ACA Income Verification Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

Obama altered law – Delayed ACA caps on out of pocket expenses until 2015. (when implemented premiums will skyrocket) Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

Obama ignored judicial order to fulfill legal obligation regarding Yucca Mountain waste. Article II, Section 3

Waived Federal provision that prevents U.S. From arming terrorist groups – Article I. Section 1; Impeachable under Article III, Section 3.

Directed State Department HS to ignore law barring entry to U.S. those giving political or charitable aid to known terrorist groups. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

Obama shelves part of the ACA Law for Insurers, extending the life of non-qualifying (according to ACA) plans until Jan. 1, 2015. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3. Violation of the Take Care Clause, Separation of Powers.

Obama waved ACA individual mandate for those that lost their insurance. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3. Violation of the Take Care Clause, Separation of Powers.

Obama alters ACA law and exempts companies employing between 50-100 full-time workers from business mandate until 2016. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

In total, Obama has unilaterally altered ACA 21 times. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3. Violation of the Take Care Clause, Separation of Powers.
__________________________________________________ __________________
I can't wait to visit there...... The US citizens are losing all of their rights..... Thinks I'd rather be in Russia.... :eek5:

[oneblackflag]

Lol!! Yip the US is far better......

Obama has:
Used Executive Privilege in regards to Fast & Furious gun running scandal. When Government misconduct is the concern Executive privilege is negated.

23 Executive Orders on gun control - infringement of the 2nd Amendment

2 Executive actions mandating private health information on patients be turned over to NICS - Violation of HIPPA law.

Executive Order bypassing Congress on immigration – Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; Article II Section 3

Unilaterally issued new exemptions to immigration restrictions law that bars certain asylum-seekers and refugees who provided “limited material support” to t errorists. – Article 1 Section 1

Issued directive instructing ICE to NOT enforce immigration laws in certain cases. Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3

Expanded executive action for amnesty to illegal immigrant relatives of DREAM Act beneficiaries. Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3

Executive action directing DHS that almost all immigration offenses were unenforceable absent a separate criminal conviction. Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3

Information memorandum telling states that they can waive the work requirement for welfare recipients, thereby altering the 1996 welfare reform law. - Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress

NDAA – Section 1021. Due process Rights negated. Violation of 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th Amendments.

Executive Order 13603 NDRP – Government can seize anything

Executive Order 13524 – Gives INTERPOL jurisdiction on American soil beyond law enforcement agencies, including the FBI.

Executive Order 13636 Infrastructure Cybersecurity – Bypassing Congress Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress

Attempt to tax political contributions – 1st Amendment

DOMA Law – Obama directed DOJ to ignore the Constitution and separation of powers and not enforce the law. ” he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3
Dodd-Frank – Due process and separation of powers. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau writing and interpreting law. Article. I. Section. 1

Drone strikes on American Citizens – 5th Amendment Due process Rights negated

Bypassed Congress and gave EPA power to advance Cap-n-Trade

Attempt for Graphic tobacco warnings (under appeal) – 1st Amendment

Four Exec. appointments – Senate was NOT in recess (Court has ruled unconstitutional yet the appointees still remain)

Appointing agency czars without the “advice and consent of the Senate.” Violation of Article II, Section 2

Obama took Chairmanship of UN Security Council – Violation of Section 9.

ACA (Obamacare) mandate – SCOTUS rewrote legislation and made it a tax because there is no Constitutional authority for Congress to force Americans to engage in commerce. SCOTUS has no authority to Legislate or lay taxes. Article I Section 1 & 8.

Contraceptive, abortifacients mandate violation of First Ammendment

Healthcare waivers – No president has dispensing powers

Refuses to acknowledge state’s 10th Amendment rights to nullify Obamacare

Going after states (AZ lawsuit) for upholding Federal law (immigration) -10th Amendment.

Chrysler Bailout -TARP - violated creditors rights and bankruptcy law, as well as Takings and Due Process Clauses – 5th Amendment (G.W. Bush also illegally used TARP funds for bailouts)

The Independent Payment Advisory Board (appointees by the president). Any decisions by IPAB will instantly become law starting in 2014 – Separation of Powers, Article 1 Section 1.

Congress did not approve Obama’s war in Libya. Article I, Section 8, First illegal war U.S. has engaged in. Impeachable under Article II, Section 4; War Powers Act – Article II Section 3.

Obama falsely claims UN can usurp Congressional war powers.

Obama has acted outside the constitutional power given him – this in itself is unconstitutional.

With the approval of Obama, the NSA and the FBI are tapping directly into the servers of 9 internet companies to gain access to emails, video/audio, photos, documents, etc. This program is code named PRISM. NSA also collecting data on all phone calls in U.S. – Violation of 4th Amendment.

Plans to sign U.N. Firearms treaty – 2nd Amendment.

The Senate/Obama immigration bill (approved by both) raises revenue – Section 7. All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives

Obama altered law – (A president has no authority to alter law) Delayed upholding the Employer Mandate Law (ACA) until 2015 – Individual Mandate will be enforced. A President does not have that authority – Article. I. Section. 1. All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States; The president “shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed” -Article II, Section 3; Equal Protection Clause -14th Amendment.

Obama altered law - ACA Medicare cuts delayed until 2015. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

Obama altered law – Enforcement of eligibility requirements for ACA delayed until 2015. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

Obama wavered ACA Income Verification Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

Obama altered law – Delayed ACA caps on out of pocket expenses until 2015. (when implemented premiums will skyrocket) Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

Obama ignored judicial order to fulfill legal obligation regarding Yucca Mountain waste. Article II, Section 3

Waived Federal provision that prevents U.S. From arming terrorist groups – Article I. Section 1; Impeachable under Article III, Section 3.

Directed State Department HS to ignore law barring entry to U.S. those giving political or charitable aid to known terrorist groups. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

Obama shelves part of the ACA Law for Insurers, extending the life of non-qualifying (according to ACA) plans until Jan. 1, 2015. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3. Violation of the Take Care Clause, Separation of Powers.

Obama waved ACA individual mandate for those that lost their insurance. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3. Violation of the Take Care Clause, Separation of Powers.

Obama alters ACA law and exempts companies employing between 50-100 full-time workers from business mandate until 2016. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

In total, Obama has unilaterally altered ACA 21 times. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3. Violation of the Take Care Clause, Separation of Powers.
__________________________________________________ __________________
I can't wait to visit there...... The US citizens are losing all of their rights..... Thinks I'd rather be in Russia.... :eek5:
Lucky he's gone soon... Though whether there's political will to reverse anything I don't know.... The people were warned about Obama.

[oneblackflag]

............

[scrivy]

Lucky he's gone soon... Though whether there's political will to reverse anything I don't know.... The people were warned about Obama.

He may be going soonish, but his puppetmasters will be staying....
The next goon will be just as bad.... cause they're just puppets afterall....

[oldrider]

He may be going soonish, but his puppetmasters will be staying....
The next goon will be just as bad.... cause they're just puppets afterall....

Yes we can ........................ of course no he didn't! ...... The most powerfull man in the world? Phfftt :rofl: Yeah right! :banana:

[george formby]

Ah. So this is whats going on. Apparently.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/fWkfpGCAAuw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Brian d marge]

Dont forget the Ukraine has Russias only warm water port

Stephen

How many day until I get my TV

Im flying to NZ right now to go window shopping ....any suggestions ?

[george formby]

Dont forget the Ukraine has Russias only warm water port

Stephen

How many day until I get my TV

Im flying to NZ right now to go window shopping ....any suggestions ?

LG are bringing out an 77" curved screed OLED soon. $35'000 approx.

[Brian d marge]

LG are bringing out an 77" curved screed OLED soon. $35'000 approx.

I aint payiny for it
Im waiting till shtf then picking up myself


Stephen

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[mashman]

I aint payiny for it
Im waiting till shtf then picking up myself


Stephen

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

Are you going to queue overnight?

[Brian d marge]

Are you going to queue overnight?

Night would be better me thinks

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[mashman]

Night would be better me thinks

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

Remember to dress appropriately.

http://s2.hubimg.com/u/1639867_f260.jpg

[Brian d marge]

Whooaaarrrrrrr

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[mashman]

Whooaaarrrrrrr

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

Exactly. The cops'll be too busy checkin you out to notice the TV you're carrying or indeed the bow over your shoulder.

[Brian d marge]

Or the bulge in the pants err dress

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[mashman]

Or the bulge in the pants err dress

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

If they're checkin you out like that, drop the TV and run would be my advice.

[avgas]

Well my dev's in Crimea seem to be happier. Turns out since re-becoming russian things are actually getting fixed in Sevastopol.
Lots of companies are moving out of Sevastopol though - because they believe they should go where the US$ is. So foolish.

[Hinny]

I see what your saying, and I hate all that crap.... but but but Russia (Putin) is a baddie.
Putin a baddie for pushing peace and pushing diplomacy?

[oneblackflag]

Putin a baddie for pushing peace and pushing diplomacy?

This includes Annexation now?

[R650R]

Putin a baddie for pushing peace and pushing diplomacy?

He's a pretty savvy player making calculated decisions instead of bowing to lobby groups like Obama does.
Also a 6th dan blackbelt in Judo, bet Obama doesn't say diddly squat to him when they have private talks lol...
I think the Russians have seen the obvious cia led destabilisation of Ukraine and are giving them and the US/nato just enough rope to expose themselves.

[Hinny]

This includes Annexation now?

Respecting a Referendum - 96.7% wanted that outcome. Seems democratic to me.
Compare that to what happened with the crooks in power here.

[Hinny]

He's a pretty savvy player making calculated decisions instead of bowing to lobby groups like Obama does.
Also a 6th dan blackbelt in Judo, bet Obama doesn't say diddly squat to him when they have private talks lol...
I think the Russians have seen the obvious cia led destabilisation of Ukraine and are giving them and the US/nato just enough rope to expose themselves.

Obama is so not the man he and the media portrayed him as before his election.
What forces a man to so comprehensively renege on his values and ideals.
Obama came in as the great peacemaker. Ended up as bad as any of them.
John Kerry - leading anti-war activist as a young man now a lying scumbag trying to initiate wars left, right and centre. Complete about face.
We can see this in abundance.
To merely write it off as "they are all just a bunch of crooks" doesn't cut it for me.

[oneblackflag]

Respecting a Referendum - 96.7% wanted that outcome. Seems democratic to me.
Compare that to what happened with the crooks in power here.

:lol: Democratic...
If Crimea wanted to split from Ukraine it should of been done through the Ukraine and UN so there was a fair ballot; not some quasi annexation then referendum.

By your logic Turkey should have a quasi annexation of southern Crimea with a reforendom on a split for the native Crimeains.... Who I feel for (you know what happened to them last time Russia had control of Crimea?).

Hell why shouldn't Ukraine take back the cities/regions with over 50% support?... Oh wait... Crimea is already a part of the Ukraine.

[Hinny]

:lol: Democratic...
If Crimea wanted to split from Ukraine it should of been done through the Ukraine and UN so there was a fair ballot; not some quasi annexation then referendum.

By your logic Turkey should have a quasi annexation of southern Crimea with a reforendom on a split for the native Crimeains.... Who I feel for (you know what happened to them last time Russia had control of Crimea?).

Hell why shouldn't Ukraine take back the cities/regions with over 50% support?... Oh wait... Crimea is already a part of the Ukraine.

You are starting to sound like an American stoolie.

[oneblackflag]

You are starting to sound like an American stoolie.

As much as you are a Kremlin...

[oldrider]

You are starting to sound like an American stoolie.

With all due respect Robbie Burns the poet got it right when he said: "Would that God the gift give us, to see ourselves as others see us".

And Michael Jackson's song: "The man in the mirror"! ... What brand of "stool" do you aspire to represent? :confused:

[Hinny]

With all due respect Robbie Burns the poet got it right when he said: "Would that God the gift give us, to see ourselves as others see us".

And Michael Jackson's song: "The man in the mirror"! ... What brand of "stool" do you aspire to represent? :confused:

I certainly do not want to be any kind of stool.
As long as my stools come out my arse and not my mouth I am happy.

[Hinny]

As much as you are a Kremlin...

I can see no moral profit from supporting terrorists and the USA defence dept. is by far the largest and most active terrorist organisation on the planet.
Their 'Commander in Chief' can therefore be regarded as the world's no 1 enemy.
Reportedly he signs orders for drone strikes around the world every day... Every day he kills people. To use an American catchcry .."He's killing his own people".
Does that sort of behaviour deserve your support?
It is the rhetoric used to drum up support of invasions to oust leaders of countries they want under their control.

[oldrider]

I certainly do not want to be any kind of stool.
As long as my stools come out my arse and not my mouth I am happy.

Hmmmm, good thing we cleared that up then! :whistle:

[oneblackflag]

I can see no moral profit from supporting terrorists and the USA defence dept. is by far the largest and most active terrorist organisation on the planet.
Their 'Commander in Chief' can therefore be regarded as the world's no 1 enemy.
Reportedly he signs orders for drone strikes around the world every day... Every day he kills people. To use an American catchcry .."He's killing his own people".
Does that sort of behaviour deserve your support?
It is the rhetoric used to drum up support of invasions to oust leaders of countries they want under their control.

Im all for drone strikes. Yes it deserves my support.

[Hinny]

Im all for drone strikes. Yes it deserves my support.

Well you must be a cunt then.

[oneblackflag]

Well you must be a cunt then.

:shit:

:laugh:

[oldrider]

Well you must be a cunt then.

Cunts? ... These are just some of my favourite things! :whistle:

[R650R]

Obama is so not the man he and the media portrayed him as before his election.
What forces a man to so comprehensively renege on his values and ideals.
Obama came in as the great peacemaker. Ended up as bad as any of them.

Yep, I think it goes something like this:


http://youtu.be/OL-33xWX2gQ

[oldrider]

Yep, I think it goes something like this:

True! .. Can't disagree with the sentiment of that clip except for the "who"!

The "who" are the same people that declare: "Give us control of the finances of the world, we care not who makes the laws"!

Anyone with enough arrogance to delare that and having enough arrogance and wherewithal to make it happen, "will" make it happen and they do!

International banking and world problems are symbiotic!

[george formby]

Any of you typists watch that youtube clip I posted? It appears from the info in the vid that the Neocons are alive, well & very busy.

[oldrider]

Any of you typists watch that youtube clip I posted? It appears from the info in the vid that the Neocons are alive, well & very busy.

Yes ... had already seen it before you posted it, among all the others floating around the net ... sorting the crap/fact is an industry all of it's own! :confused:

[george formby]

Yes ... had already seen it before you posted it, among all the others floating around the net ... sorting the crap/fact is an industry all of it's own! :confused:


Concur. Cheers. The more we look the better informed.

Meh. Yet another part of the world that's been squabbling for millennia.

I'm defo getting very leary of A'merckan motives though. Recent history is not good to them.

[oldrider]

Concur. Cheers. The more we look the better informed.

Meh. Yet another part of the world that's been squabbling for millennia.

I'm defo getting very leary of A'merckan motives though. Recent history is not good to them.

True! ... But are American interests really those of the American people or are they those of the Israeli lobbyists in America?

Does America place Israeli interests before those of Americans?

These guys were asking these questions back in 2006 : http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-83-page-report-AIPAC-controls-USA.pdf

Has anything changed since then to suggest that they were wrong, let history speak for it's self, after all we have been witness to these events in our own time!

You can make your own judgement based on facts that you have been witness to.

Read their report and consider why you feel so uneasy about recent American history! :shifty: Israel and America? ... Strange but "extremely" commited bedfellows! :rolleyes:

[avgas]

If Crimea wanted to split from Ukraine it should of been done through the Ukraine and UN so there was a fair ballot; not some quasi annexation then referendum.
So a massive protest to remove the current Ukraine govt ends up with US appointed leader, the US is the current punch of the UN........and you think that Crimea should have to perform their ballot to split FROM THE UKRAINE! through the UN (aka USA in tights) and Ukraine (the people they want to ditch).

Good logic. It's like a South American nation letting the cartels run the election.

[awa355]

So much for western sanctions.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11245684

[SPman]

So much for western sanctions.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11245684
If you want to know what's actually going on - follow the money!

[awa355]

Reading this article from the BBC, the only way Nato is going to stop the pro Russian supporters is to use military force.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27206280

I reckon within two years the Ukraine will be East and West, similar to what Germany was. .

[oldrider]

The Europian version of North and South Korea ... Hmmmm USA seems to like that sort of thing, unfortunately! :wacko:

[Brian d marge]

Who do you think you are kidding, Mr. Hitler?
If you think we’re on the run...

We are the boys who will stop your little game!
We are the boys who will make you think again!

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[Brian d marge]

We need some of those protesters man they did the business

Stephen

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[R650R]

Interesting vid given the current situation... sounds like they may be hard buggers but the leadership is lacking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixiH5zXJpEQ

[MD]

We need some of those protesters man they did the business

Stephen

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

Really? Are you talking about that mob that herded people into a building yesterday, set it on fire, shot at anyone trying to escape out the upper windows and burnt 42 people to death? In what way could we possibly need them?

I think that act of mob cruelty will be the turning point for the worse in the Ukraines troubles. A stupid move by the pro-Ukraines, giving the pro-Russians an excuse to go on murderous rampages under the guise of revenge and retribution.

[Brian d marge]

Angry nutters get shit done
Sheep go " mustn't grumble"

Stephen

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[scrivy]

The outcome for Ukraine.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
\/

(Custard)

[mashman]

Really? Are you talking about that mob that herded people into a building yesterday, set it on fire, shot at anyone trying to escape out the upper windows and burnt 42 people to death? In what way could we possibly need them?

I think that act of mob cruelty will be the turning point for the worse in the Ukraines troubles. A stupid move by the pro-Ukraines, giving the pro-Russians an excuse to go on murderous rampages under the guise of revenge and retribution.

Dunno about that... there's an odd form of protest that's gathering strength. Was watching RT today and they were showing footage of the people of a small town pulling over trucks of soldiers (who said they didn't know where they were going :weird:) and waiting for the cops to turn up. They then unloaded the vans of ammo into the back of the police cars and were told to get the fuck out of town and to stop killing people. One can only hope that that form of protest becomes the norm instead of the fuckknuckles burning people in buildings.

Both sides are as bad as each other and it's nothing more than an engineered playground fight, ya know, where one kid says to the other kid that his mate hates the other kids mate and could take him in a fight whereby soon after the two are squaring up in the school yard to prove the point but not fully understanding how they got there, they only know that the fight needs to take place. Unfortunately that ends up where you say, revenge and retribution. And in this case, all because of a fracking protest. Another fuckload of misery in the conquest for oil.

[mashman]

If all else fails, arrest and charge people that survived the burning building. (http://rt.com/news/156724-odessa-police-release-activists/)... great to see the locals encouraging police to release them.

[R650R]

Dunno about that... there's an odd form of protest that's gathering strength. Was watching RT today and they were showing footage of the people of a small town pulling over trucks of soldiers (who said they didn't know where they were going :weird:) and waiting for the cops to turn up. They then unloaded the vans of ammo into the back of the police cars and were told to get the fuck out of town and to stop killing people. One can only hope that that form of protest becomes the norm instead of the fuckknuckles burning people in buildings.

Both sides are as bad as each other and it's nothing more than an engineered playground fight, ya know, where one kid says to the other kid that his mate hates the other kids mate and could take him in a fight whereby soon after the two are squaring up in the school yard to prove the point but not fully understanding how they got there, they only know that the fight needs to take place. Unfortunately that ends up where you say, revenge and retribution. And in this case, all because of a fracking protest. Another fuckload of misery in the conquest for oil.

Yeah I saw that vid too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75dlup0WXGY

People have seen what kind of "improved lifestyle and democracy" is in store after regional conflict/revolution and know it will always be worse than existing conditions.
Just look at Iraq, Eygypt, Libya and Syria, complete mess...

[mashman]

Yeah I saw that vid too.

People have seen what kind of "improved lifestyle and democracy" is in store after regional conflict/revolution and know it will always be worse than existing conditions.
Just look at Iraq, Eygypt, Libya and Syria, complete mess...

This is a BBC story about the town (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27238524)

Yeah, democracy, it's worth fighting for because it brings freedom to a region that has never been..... oh, hang on that little speech isn't going to work. As you say, it's a complete mess.

[Brian d marge]

Meeeh i want my tv

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[angle]

This is a BBC story about the town (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27238524)

Yeah, democracy, it's worth fighting for because it brings freedom to a region that has never been..... oh, hang on that little speech isn't going to work. As you say, it's a complete mess.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NKuDzXAgdf4

[mashman]

Clusterfuck video

And to think that this is all being engineered by parties with vested interests :facepalm: Fuck it, I approve the use of nuclear weapons... let's get it over and done with.

[ellipsis]

...it reminds me of my kids first attempts at making a movie with their new fangled digital cameras, a long while back...

[Brian d marge]

Read back a few post ive mentioned slobovia （sp) before..
One of the leaders was tsken out the back of s csfe and shot not do long ago if my memory serves me
All funded by larry flint or love diamond or whatever his name is

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[oldrider]

Read back a few post ive mentioned slobovia （sp) before..
One of the leaders was tsken out the back of s csfe and shot not do long ago if my memory serves me
All funded by larry flint or love diamond or whatever his name is

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

Hmmmm, you are obviously still in shock! ... Settle pettal settle. :D

[SPman]

A good analysis from a Russian perspective here

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Document:Battleground_Ukraine

[Brian d marge]

Hmmmm, you are obviously still in shock! ... Settle pettal settle. :D

settle for .............

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VhVZE0s8PtY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I want me TV ......

Stephen

[oldrider]

Have you developed a stutter Stephen? Or did you mean to post that twice? I think that bolshi prick got what he deserved! :yes:

[Brian d marge]

I think that bolshi prick got what he deserved! :yes:

I didnt know he could dance , He must have been moonlighting for the Russian troupe ...........

Stephen

[R650R]

Bit of European central heating Russian style...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v71eF8HdZb8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Brian d marge]

Things have changed since my day
Battle of Crécy - A French perspective: http://youtu.be/vAUp1ripJLE


Stephen

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[scrivy]

"Russia is rich in oil and gas, an advantage they have used time and again in negotiations with Europe by simply threatening to shut down gas pipelines if their demands weren’t met. But something most people don’t realize is that the Russians also dominate the rare earth metals sector, namely the mining of uranium.

If Russia were to restrict the export of that uranium, explains Katusa, life as we know it in the United States could come to an abrupt halt.

If that happened America’s lights would go out. It would be the greatest blackout in American history…

The irony is John Kerry is going out there with Obama and talking about all these sanctions they’re going to put on the Russians. If the Russians wanted they could pull the rug out from under the American energy matrix and 20%, one out of every five homes in America, would be in blackout.

You have to remember the facts… You can talk about hope and dreams all you want, but the reality is that one in every five homes in America is powered by Russian fuel.

In 2013 America consumed just over 45 million pounds [of uranium] and in the U.S. last year they produced just under 4.4 million pounds. So, depending on which numbers you want to use and what the actual recoveries are, somewhere confidently less than 10% but more likely somewhere around 6% to 7% [of the uranium Americans use is mined in the United States].

The U.S. imports over 90% of what they consume and that is a strategic issue when you think about the fact that 20% of base-load power is based on nuclear energy and they depend on 90% from imports… Americans should be in shock with that. On of that, half comes from the former USSR, what I call the Soviet influence.

Ironically, what people do forget is that the Russians produced more uranium on American soil than all the American companies combined, so that’s alarming.

For years the Obama administration, as well as their predecessors, have surrendered America’s energy independence to foreign interests. Americans are already familiar with the economic effects of oil embargos such as the one that lead to the 1973 crisis that quadrupled oil prices. Most recently, as tensions in the middle east rose in 2008, the price of gas rose nearly 40% in a single year and threatened America’s domestic strategic oil reserves.

Since the end of the cold war we’ve experienced a relatively stable trade relationship with Russia up until a few months ago when Ukraine exploded in revolution. Now Americans face a new energy threat that could, should Russia choose to exercise this option, lead to rolling blackouts across the United States and cause electricity prices to sky rocket almost overnight.

It’s a threat that doesn’t seem to be on anyone’s radar, but one that could have an immediate impact on Americans’ way of life if Vladimir Putin decides he’s had enough of the political showmanship."

Uh-oh....... :facepalm::shutup:

[Brian d marge]

Darkness everyone darkness

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[scrivy]

Darkness everyone darkness

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

Last one there turn out the li..... oh that's right.... DOH!!:shutup::laugh:

[mashman]

If that happened America�s lights would go out. It would be the greatest blackout in American history�


Postponing the inevitable. Perhaps a wee scare is in order... then they get to see just how good their politicians are. For the record, my money is on the people winning.

[Akzle]

i vote for the chocolate king!

[avgas]

i vote for the chocolate king!
http://blogs.ubc.ca/kellymarketingblog/files/2014/03/Kony-2012.jpg

[Brian d marge]

Darknesss ...fk yr couch .........go buy a new one

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/18gElAzSL4E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephen

[mashman]

i vote for the chocolate king!

Yet another useless Wonka.

[awa355]

Is starting to warm up a bit over there.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27578440

[SPman]

The current situation on the ground


Donetsk Airport freight terminal is burned and partly destroyed. Kiev is believed to be in control of the airport at this time. Damage to the terminal building is unknown.
The attempt to seize Donetsk Airport was reinforced by Vostok Brigade. Casualties were heavy in the brigade but numbers unknown.
The Vostok Brigade wounded being transported to hospital in a truck were fired upon. The driver was killed, then an RPG round was fired at the truck. All the wounded in the truck were killed, either by the RPG or head shots after the assault. Confirmed by vid and photos of the dead, all that could be seen had head wounds. A second video not being published absolutely confirms that all the dead from the trucks carrying wounded had head wounds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ZvgJG7eNk&feature=youtu.be
Numerous bombardments last evening and this morning of civilian areas of Slavyansk, Donetsk, Mariupol and Lugansk City and suburbs, civilian casualties are heavy with more than 70 reported dead and wounded.
Major movements of Kiev forces as of 05 local time this morning have not commenced. More information on this later.
As of 11:30 local time scattered probing attacks are reported around Slavyansk.
As of 10:05 local time the situation in Mariupol is unknown.
No major attacks by the Nats today, just numerous small probes.
Evacuation is being attempted in Slavyansk for civilians but it is not possible, the city is cut off and surrounded to an extent. Don't know if this is true or if it is a charade to mask the evacuation of at least the children. Reality is Slavyansk has to large a population to evacuate, 120,000.
Scattered artillery and mortar attacks continue in the vicinity of Slavyansk and the outskirts of Donetsk, almost all at random civilian residential areas. Some casualties but number is unknown.
No information on the situation in either Lugansk Oblast or Mariupol in Donetsk Oblast.


and lots more interesting stuff at




http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.br/2014/05/ukraine-sitrep-may-27th-1454-utczulu.html

[Winston001]

"

If Russia were to restrict the export of that uranium, explains Katusa, life as we know it in the United States could come to an abrupt halt.

If that happened America’s lights would go out. It would be the greatest blackout in American history…
.

You have to remember the facts… You can talk about hope and dreams all you want, but the reality is that one in every five homes in America is powered by Russian fuel.

In 2013 America consumed just over 45 million pounds [of uranium] and in the U.S. last year they produced just under 4.4 million pounds.

The U.S. imports over 90% of what they consume and that is a strategic issue when you think about the fact that 20% of base-load power is based on nuclear energy..
"

Uh-oh....... :facepalm::shutup:

Oh oh indeed. But not quite as you may think. The quote is a navel-gazing American perspective and you know the Yanks, they are empty of anything outside the 50 states.

Uranium is actually a common metal if you really want to find it. Sea water for example. The Uranium Kings are our mates across the ditch, the bloody Ozzies who have 31% of the worlds known uranium reserves. Russia has a piddling 9% which incidentally is the same as Canada. No panic here.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Uranium-Resources/Supply-of-Uranium/

[R650R]

The engines on these will be kept warm at moment, interesting short doco with English subtitles.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWgtJDmUGkk

[SPman]

With Slavyansk and Donetsk being encircled and no one being allowed to leave, this little snippet was interesting

Civilians are gradually being evacuated from the combat zone and even if the Ukrainian authorities use various intimidation and nasty harassment techniques against these refugees (like forcing them to get out of their buses and continue on foot), they cannot simply kill them all (too many cellphones with cameras, too many reporters out there). As for the NDF, they are clearly getting more and more weapons such as the MANPADS (man portable air defense systems) and rapid fire AA (anti-air) guns mentioned by "Juan" which the NDF seems to regularly "find" here and there. By the way, MANPADS and AA guns are the *perfect* weapons for urban warfare. The first ones prevent not only air strikes but also air mobility (ferrying around of men and equipment) As for rapid-fire AA guns they can not only shoot helicopters and aircraft, they can turn any wall or lightly armored vehicle into confetti in just a few seconds. Even a main battle tank will be badly rattled if a ZU-23 puts well-laid burst of steel armor-piercing rounds on it. My understanding is that so far the NDF only has the towed version, but sooner or later they are going to get the self-propelled one (the ZU-23-4 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/ZSU-23-4_Shilka_01.jpg) lovingly called "Shilka") which is normally used as air-defense system for in any motor-rifle or armored regiment. As for the old ZU-23-2 they can be mounted on pickups and trucks (though these vehicles will shake badly during firing). I think of these simple but formidable weapons as "WWII weapons on steroids".

[SPman]

And a few visuals to show what it's currently like in Lubyansk.....
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/x3wBXkR0rJ0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

resulting in ......
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Ssqvx6UOvd4" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

but it's all just a bit of fun....!

but, from the correspondent on the ground....

For you politicians behind the coup d'etat in Kiev and the war against the citizens of Ukraine, you disgust me. I have only this to say to Merkel, Torchinov, Poroshenko, Holland, Cameron. Swift Boat John, Nuland and Obama, whoever the 'president' of poland is, each and every one of you, your minions and hangers on, the west politicians, ALL of you.

Damn your eyes, damn your souls, damn you to Hell, back to where you came from. You are beneath contempt.

[mark247]

Such a terrible situation. Having lived in eastern Ukraine for 6 months and having friends there, this all feels rather close to home. Also wrote my Master's thesis on Ukraine's European integration, how wrong I was!!

The last few days in Lugansk have been awful, I hope the borders to Russia are closed soon so the stream of terrorists halted.

[Brian d marge]

Such a terrible situation. Having lived in eastern Ukraine for 6 months and having friends there, this all feels rather close to home. Also wrote my Master's thesis on Ukraine's European integration, how wrong I was!!

The last few days in Lugansk have been awful, I hope the borders to Russia are closed soon so the stream of terrorists halted.

What did u say in the thesisabout intergration out of interest

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[mark247]

I was more arguing that Ukraine's attitude towards integration, mainly the association agreement, hadn't changed between the previous Yushchenko presidency and the then Yanukovych presidency even though Yushchenko/Tymoshenko were 'pro-EU' and Yanukovych was the classic Dombass mafia. Really Ukraine has been burdened by being a country that needs good relations with both EU and Russia and its government has always kind of failed at both - mainly due to its corrupt officials.

Euromaiden has really scarred Ukraine's relations with Russia for the foreseen future and put the EU under a lot of stress. I really hope the EU does the right thing and helps Ukraine as much as it can.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using Tapatalk

[SPman]

I was more arguing that Ukraine's attitude towards integration, mainly the association agreement, hadn't changed between the previous Yushchenko presidency and the then Yanukovych presidency even though Yushchenko/Tymoshenko were 'pro-EU' and Yanukovych was the classic Dombass mafia. Really Ukraine has been burdened by being a country that needs good relations with both EU and Russia and its government has always kind of failed at both - mainly due to its corrupt officials.

Euromaiden has really scarred Ukraine's relations with Russia for the foreseen future and put the EU under a lot of stress. I really hope the EU does the right thing and helps Ukraine as much as it can.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using TapatalkThe Ukraine people just wanted to get rid of the oligarchs - Yushchenko, Tymoshenko, Yanukovych, who have been bleeding Ukraine dry for the last 20 yrs. So their protests were hijacked and they get another oligarch, who changes his spots so fast to suit whatever position is suitable, he could be a chameleon.

I hope the borders to Russia are closed soon so the stream of terrorists halted. Are you serious? The majority of Eastern Ukrainians, 70-80%, don't believe the Kiev government is legitimate. There is a concerted anti-Russian push by the Kiev government - particularly the neo-nazis and Svoboda, so it's no wonder the predominantly Russian east is worried. Most of the "terrorists" are locals - there are some Chechyens coming in - which scare the shit out of everyone, but Russia is staying out of it at the moment, despite the provocation of the west! They aren't totally stupid - time enough to come in, if the "minor" killing escalates into wholesale slaughter (many more than the 1,000 or so who have been killed so far). The whole thing is being stirred up by an EU that is in the thrall of the USA, and A US government that is rapidly going stark raving mad, and don't give a damn what destruction their policies wraught! Russia has signed a 30 yr energy deal with China and will start energy trading in it's own currency soon - the USA certainly don't want that to happen and are back to attacking Russia like a rabid Pit Bull! Along with all their minions, UK, Aust, NZ, EU, NATO, etc. The whole situation has the potential to turn very nasty indeed, particularly in light of the US policy and belief in a pre-emptive, nuclear first strike!!!!

[Brian d marge]

Will respond in depth later in a meeting now butcheck out the work of larry diamond this american has popped up a few times in regime changes

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[mark247]

The Ukraine people just wanted to get rid of the oligarchs - Yushchenko, Tymoshenko, Yanukovych, who have been bleeding Ukraine dry for the last 20 yrs. So their protests were hijacked and they get another oligarch, who changes his spots so fast to suit whatever position is suitable, he could be a chameleon.
Are you serious? The majority of Eastern Ukrainians, 70-80%, don't believe the Kiev government is legitimate. There is a concerted anti-Russian push by the Kiev government - particularly the neo-nazis and Svoboda, so it's no wonder the predominantly Russian east is worried. Most of the "terrorists" are locals - there are some Chechyens coming in - which scare the shit out of everyone, but Russia is staying out of it at the moment, despite the provocation of the west! They aren't totally stupid - time enough to come in, if the "minor" killing escalates into wholesale slaughter (many more than the 1,000 or so who have been killed so far). The whole thing is being stirred up by an EU that is in the thrall of the USA, and A US government that is rapidly going stark raving mad, and don't give a damn what destruction their policies wraught! Russia has signed a 30 yr energy deal with China and will start energy trading in it's own currency soon - the USA certainly don't want that to happen and are back to attacking Russia like a rabid Pit Bull! Along with all their minions, UK, Aust, NZ, EU, NATO, etc. The whole situation has the potential to turn very nasty indeed, particularly in light of the US policy and belief in a pre-emptive, nuclear first strike!!!!

I agree Poroshenko has a lot to prove. I think he is in a better situation than Yanukovych though. Poroshenko is the founder of the Party of Regions party, he knows Putin personally, he also speaks good English and Ukrainian which is very important. He is a completely different politician to Yanukovych, I suggest reading interviews of Yanukovych's former advisors (sorry i cant recall where i saw them).

I am serious. First of all, i don't think any current opinion polls (or referendums) in Ukraine, especially from Donetsk Oblast and Lugansk Oblast, are accurate. That said, polls in previous years have shown that support for Ukraine staying intact is the majority throughout Ukraine. One thing I know for sure from my own observations and from my friends in Ukraine: The majoring of Ukrainians just wish they could get on with their lives, they want Ukraine to stay Ukraine. In Eastern Ukraine oblasts which are the most affected, most people want nothing to do with the seperatists - they just want to live in a city which isn't being ripped apart. I know there are Ukrainian nationals in the seperatists, there is no denying it, but a vast amount of them are Russian, from regions near Ukraine such as Voronezh and unfortunately Dagestan. The Russian government has done a terrible job promoting a cease fire, allowing trucks of Chechens through Russia without stopping them - there is no way Russian authorities didn't know this was occuring.

I don't really have much to say about your EU/USA thoughts.

At the end of the day everyone is allowed to have their opinion - to be honest I don't think we will see eye to eye on this topic :D I don't want an argument. :innocent:

Edit: What's your background? It's always interesting to know wher people get their info / how their opinions are formed.

[SPman]

One thing I know for sure from my own observations and from my friends in Ukraine: The majoring of Ukrainians just wish they could get on with their lives, they want Ukraine to stay Ukraine. In Eastern Ukraine oblasts which are the most affected, most people want nothing to do with the seperatists - they just want to live in a city which isn't being ripped apart
True. Having been there recently, it must be deeply disturbing to you. I know a couple of yukies, they haven't been home for some years, but they aren't happy at all about the whole situation. Unfortunately, unless there's a massive groundswell amongst the general populace, it's not going to happen - the whole revolution has been hijacked by groups with agendas - as they always seem to be. What the people want, unless it can be used to advantage, rarely figures in what most of the protagonists are going to do.

It needs people to step back, stop fighting and start talking - on both sides. Both sides are attracting mercenaries/adventurers/fighters/whatever - there have been reports of Danes and Americans in the Ukraine attacking forces.......

Poroshenko may be better than those before and it's ironic he knows Putin well, and supported Yanukovych for a while....... but, most of the oligarchs know each other and it seems to be the way that part of the world operates at the moment.

Trouble is, unless some cool heads come into play, it's just going to steadily escalate.....May 2nd - Odessa - 297 dead, May 9 - Mariupol - over 100 civilians and police killed, Slavyansk - over 100 dead the last 2 weeks, Lubyansk - over 50 killed in aircraft attacks yesterday.......lots of civilians - civilian admin office workers.
It's not to late to stop this slaughter, but, with every day it continues, positions become entrenched, people become embittered and it becomes harder and harder, and meanwhile the stirring continues from outside the country.........


......I don't want an argument. Nor I - this whole subject is tragic - a discussion from differing viewpoints is quite acceptable.

[SPman]

The situation in Novorossiya for civilians in many areas is critical. In the areas under heavy and continuous bombardment food is scarce. Water in Slavyansk area is stopped some days ago. Electric also. The other important part of water supply, the removal of sewage, well, the Ukes shot those plants to pieces also. The situation in Kramtorsk is even worse, so bad that there are civilian bodies in the streets, many bodies, that have not been picked up for days. I am not joking. I tell the truth. I shudder to think how many dead civilian men, women and children we will find when we eventually secure the area but I will not be surprised to find the numbers exceed a thousand if not far more.

To the best of my knowledge the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has refused to bestow refugee status on the civilians leaving the combat and bombardment areas of Novorossiya. To quote a famous quote, why should they care?
It's estimated 1-200,000 people have fled the cities so far, the Ukrainians are shelling city residential areas using white phosphorus on occasions, shooting wounded patients in hospitals, yet, the western news media only comments, if the Donbass troops shoot down a plane with 49 military personel on it and blame the "russian backed terrorists!"
A major catastrophe brewing here.....
but they're "only" Russian/Ukraine non people......

Fucking pathetic!

[Brian d marge]

Ahh the western media

Ill let Russel speak .......

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/yswMwwDSngw" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Remove empathy add money and you get this shyt ( ukraine etc not the above you tube)

evil fuckers


Stephen

[mark247]

I think it's fair to say the Ukrainian, Western, and Russian media only tell their side of the story.

Fighting in residential area is awful. In some cases though I think civilian areas have intentionally been used as a form a defence.

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

[avgas]

Crimea is ok. But many companies are shifting operations out of Sevastopol simply due to connotations more than anything. But it seems everything is as peaceful in Crimea as it is now effectively Russian supporters only. The rest have gone north and some Ukrainians have even gone south.

[mark247]

It's important not to make things should so black and white saying things like Crimea is "effectively Russian supporters only." What about the Ukrainians and native Tatar? There is nowhere in Ukraine which is "only" anything.

I think it's important to remember Ukrainians in Crimea. Ukrainian speaking high schools have been made to change and Crimean Universities with many students from main land Ukraine are in worse shape. It's made out as if Crimea never fitted in Ukraine. That's rubbish. From my experience in my short time in Crimea and having studied the area in depth there was very little issue with it being Ukrainian before the Russian media striked fear in to the Russian speaking population making them think Ukraine had been taken over by fascists. It really wasn't an issue before. My Ukrainian and Russian colleagues and friends never mentioned it as an issue before.

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

[mark247]

FYI

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/19/y7y2aqep.jpg

Edit: obviously a survey of Crimean residents, not all of Ukraine

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

[awa355]

Look at the current mess that is called Iraq, . The Americans pulled out claiming all was on the mend. They had their man in place.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11277657

The Ukraine people wont want their country to finish up like this.

[SPman]

Look at the current mess that is called Iraq, . The Americans pulled out claiming all was on the mend. They had their man in place.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11277657

The Ukraine people wont want their country to finish up like this.
June 19th IRAQ SITREP

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/june-19th-iraq-sitrep-by-mindfriedo.html

[R650R]

Look at the current mess that is called Iraq, . The Americans pulled out claiming all was on the mend. They had their man in place.



Iraq is going completely to the USA plan, they wanted this all along. Their (pentagon) dream is to balkanise Iraq into five small indepandant states, none of which on their own would become a Saddam size headache if their installed puppet dictators (sorry elected govts) disobey the IMF/Elite plan again.
I'd also say they probably engineered this looking at the timing as a launching pad to overwhelm Syrias forces. You have to wonder where all those weapons and fighters are going to end up afterwards though. Looks like they've created afganistan mk2...
Ukraine has been another deliberate destabilisation plan by the West but Putin is a smart cookie. He's letting them create their shambles knowing the outer regions will come back to the security of Russian control.

[mashman]

Murdering scum (http://rt.com/news/169512-ukraine-poroshenko-ceasefire-end/)

[george formby]

Murdering scum (http://rt.com/news/169512-ukraine-poroshenko-ceasefire-end/)


There were unconfirmed reports, by netizens, of heavy casualties in the Ukraine posted yesterday.

[mark247]

There was never a ceasefire from the separatists. 27 Ukrainian servicemen killed in the last 7 days.

You do realise RT is propaganda in its purist form right? Just don't trust one news source, or any. It boggles my mind hearing people with no ties or real understanding of the region backing the separatists (I'm not pointing at anyone in particular here, for all I know you're originally from eastern ukraine).

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

[mashman]

There was never a ceasefire from the separatists. 27 Ukrainian servicemen killed in the last 7 days.

You do realise RT is propaganda in its purist form right? Just don't trust one news source, or any. It boggles my mind hearing people with no ties or real understanding of the region backing the separatists (I'm not pointing at anyone in particular here, for all I know you're originally from eastern ukraine).

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

I keep up in general... it doesn't matter where you hear the news from, even if it's from a local. Why would anyone need an understanding or ties to the region to understand what's behind war? This debacle started off as a fracking protest. It's a somewhat global activity. That the murderous scum have legalised the murder again (it was illegal under a ceasefire right) is scant consolation to anyone anywhere near what's going on. Cunts are supposed to be leaders, the best and the brightest, and yet they do not serve their people. They should be shot.

[mark247]

I think you'd find the vast majority of Ukrainians want Ukraine to stay intact. Be them from Lugansk or Lviv. War is an awful thing by all means, but Russia and/or the separatists are not the moral authority in this case. If separatists, which are a small minority, started this in any other country I think the government would have a similar response. Remember Chechnya? First Chechen war had around 80k civilian casualties.

The sad thing about this conflict is the huge propaganda involved. Pro Russians think Ukraine is run by the far right nazis, where you'd find that far rights in Ukraine has one of the smallest showings in Europe. The word 'fascist' is being thrown around like its going out of fashion, if anyway cared to look at the meaning they'd see that Russia of all the major players involved is the closed to it.

These (some?) separatists are madmen, yesterday there were reports they had a go at knocking a Dnipravia airliner out of the sky with a MANPAD. Stuff them! I've flown that airline!

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

[mashman]

I think you'd find the vast majority of Ukrainians want Ukraine to stay intact. Be them from Lugansk or Lviv. War is an awful thing by all means, but Russia and/or the separatists are not the moral authority in this case. If separatists, which are a small minority, started this in any other country I think the government would have a similar response. Remember Chechnya? First Chechen war had around 80k civilian casualties.

The sad thing about this conflict is the huge propaganda involved. Pro Russians think Ukraine is run by the far right nazis, where you'd find that far rights in Ukraine has one of the smallest showings in Europe. The word 'fascist' is being thrown around like its going out of fashion, if anyway cared to look at the meaning they'd see that Russia of all the major players involved is the closed to it.

These (some?) separatists are madmen, yesterday there were reports they had a go at knocking a Dnipravia airliner out of the sky with a MANPAD. Stuff them! I've flown that airline!

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

Yeah I'm pretty sure everyone wants to stay alive... as you say, war is an awful thing. The unfortunate thing about conflict is that it usually start off with some form of innocuous act, in this case fracking. The Arab Spring kicked off because a shop owner set himself on fire in the marketplace in protest. It's unfortunate because that act is ignored by the decision makers and is turned into something entirely different that sparks unrest/war. I'm sure an uprising would be dealt with in every country, but does that immediately tar the separatists as the bad guys? It certainly seems to for some unknown reason... can we have our ball back please usually resulting in a no because it isn't a goal of a particular govt to address an issue that has "normal" people riddling each other with holes or setting buildings on fire because you wore the wrong coloured flag.

They're all in on it. What's the betting it was a case of implement fracking or suffer economic sanctions? Ukraine also had a rather large gas bill too which won't have helped from the simple perspective that they are indebted to another nation. Tis a joke.

Oh I've no doubt that all parties are committed from their own perspective and that there will be "extreme" events that come about because of those differences. All because of fracking. It's all really rather silly really isn't it.

[mark247]

Can you explain your fracking link with Ukraine? Cheers.

Very briefly, Ukraine's latest crisis started after Yanukovych pulled back on the AA with EU he had said he would sign then pulled back on. This caused uproar (Euromaidan). This east west tension was exploited by Russia who opportunistically walked into Crimea. This gave separatists in East Ukraine some ideas (many of who were in Crimea also) and Ukraine finally took action, when if it had a strong enough government at the time, could had justifiably done this in the Crimea initially.

I find Russia asking for more debt payments from Ukraine a joke, if they plan on keeping Crimea they should know this will cost Ukraine 10s of billions of dollars of losses.

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

[mashman]

Can you explain your fracking link with Ukraine? Cheers.

Very briefly, Ukraine's latest crisis started after Yanukovych pulled back on the AA with EU he had said he would sign then pulled back on. This caused uproar (Euromaidan). This east west tension was exploited by Russia who opportunistically walked into Crimea. This gave separatists in East Ukraine some ideas (many of who were in Crimea also) and Ukraine finally took action, when if it had a strong enough government at the time, could had justifiably done this in the Crimea initially.

I find Russia asking for more debt payments from Ukraine a joke, if they plan on keeping Crimea they should know this will cost Ukraine 10s of billions of dollars of losses.

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

There's a link on here somewhere (probably in Stupid World) that spoke of it during the time... anyhoo "An anti-fracking rally took place in the city of Kerch at Ukraine’s Crimea peninsula as several activists gathered in front of a gas station, owned by Anglo–Dutch multinational oil and gas company, Shell.

The campaigners, wearing gas masks, warned that the company, which received permission to explore shale gas from the Ukrainian government, possesses threat to the country’s ecology."
("http://rt.com/news/global-fracking-protest-updates-405/")

I could probably find my original link but got the physio for eldest daughter, then homeworks to do, then dishes, then dinner etc... The protesters never left the streets and the anti-govt rally continued into what we see today and via the media propaganda that you've posted (not having a go in the slightest). If I was going to be a cynic, I'd say that the excuse to fight presented itself when the anti-fracking protest started... but hey.

Ach the economics of it are unimportant to those in power as there are bigger fish to fry and people need culling.

[mark247]

I don't think Euromaidan has anything to do with fracking. A protest in Kerch, sure, but I don't think a Russian take over is going to do any good things to the environment. That reminds me, I went to a public lecture after work a month or so ago put on by a visiting prof here in wellington. There was this one old guy there, in his 70s, and all he wanted the lecturer to say was "This conflict was caused by the US because there oil/gas in Ukraine." I asked the guy whether there was any oil/gas in Ukraine and he replied "I don't know." People forget that Ukraine is a large country with a rich history and a very strong civil society (compared to surrounding countries). It is very much possible that what spawned this conflict is actually about Ukraine and Ukrainians, not east v west. Not everything is Obama and oil. What it is now is another story. Russia has taken advantage of the situation. Sorry I've deviated a bit but it is a point people need to remember.

Propaganda I posted?

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

[SPman]

As usual, it's the general populace that suffer, currently the East Ukraines, because of the the egos, maschinations and vain-glory grab for power of people and countries that should know better.
There are currently reports of Chlorine gas being used in Kramatorsk, along with heavy civilian casualties....

04:00 Heavy armor moving on Kramatorsk. A full regiment including main battle tanks.

05:00 Sukhoi aircraft attacks started Kramatorsk. Reports one has been shot down, not confirmed.

05:30 Intense fighting has commenced outskirts Kramatorsk. Tactical situations unknown.

06:45 Heavy civilian casualties reported Kramatorsk. Civilian living areas are targeted. One hospital has been hit and is burning. Casualties unknown in hospital. One 7 floor flats building has collapsed. Casualties unknown.

Slavyansk and outlying villages and towns are under heavy bombardment from Karachun Mountain. Civilian living areas targeted. Reports two flats buildings burning. Reports 2 hospitals including children hospital hit multiple times. Heavy casualties reported at hospitals, unconfirmed.

and so it goes.......

mark 247 - the size of the far right in a country is not necessarily an indication of it's effectiveness, or not. It's how committed they are, and the "Banderistas" are committed. Also, the presence of private militias among the various oligarchs (illegal by Ukraine Law) and the "independence" they seem to have does not help proceedings. It takes 2 sides to fight, and neither side seems to have any real desire not to - the West because of the "seperatists", the East because of continued attacks from the west - Poroshenko's ceasefire seemed to be observed more in the breaking of, than observance of.

[mashman]

I don't think Euromaidan has anything to do with fracking. A protest in Kerch, sure, but I don't think a Russian take over is going to do any good things to the environment. That reminds me, I went to a public lecture after work a month or so ago put on by a visiting prof here in wellington. There was this one old guy there, in his 70s, and all he wanted the lecturer to say was "This conflict was caused by the US because there oil/gas in Ukraine." I asked the guy whether there was any oil/gas in Ukraine and he replied "I don't know." People forget that Ukraine is a large country with a rich history and a very strong civil society (compared to surrounding countries). It is very much possible that what spawned this conflict is actually about Ukraine and Ukrainians, not east v west. Not everything is Obama and oil. What it is now is another story. Russia has taken advantage of the situation. Sorry I've deviated a bit but it is a point people need to remember.

Propaganda I posted?

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

Fair enough. I don't believe that it is a Russian instigated incident. For starters the people were on the streets for months before Euromaiden. Of course Russia will benefit from snafooing Crimea, but I reckon that's part payment for debt and democracy ;). Bottom line, you can't have protesters winning those sorts of protests. But yeah, there could be many reasons for it... yet they were peaceful before the fracking protest :bleh:

An interesting read I thought (http://www.globalresearch.ca/shale-projects-and-gas-fracking-in-eastern-europe/5357216) ... and another more murkey one. (http://www.tol.org/client/article/23846-ukraine-environment-shale-gas.html)

Edit: You said "The sad thing about this conflict is the huge propaganda involved", that was the reference for the propaganda comment.

[mark247]

As usual, it's the general populace that suffer, currently the East Ukraines, because of the the egos, maschinations and vain-glory grab for power of people and countries that should know better.
There are currently reports of Chlorine gas being used in Kramatorsk, along with heavy civilian casualties....

04:00 Heavy armor moving on Kramatorsk. A full regiment including main battle tanks.

05:00 Sukhoi aircraft attacks started Kramatorsk. Reports one has been shot down, not confirmed.

05:30 Intense fighting has commenced outskirts Kramatorsk. Tactical situations unknown.

06:45 Heavy civilian casualties reported Kramatorsk. Civilian living areas are targeted. One hospital has been hit and is burning. Casualties unknown in hospital. One 7 floor flats building has collapsed. Casualties unknown.

Slavyansk and outlying villages and towns are under heavy bombardment from Karachun Mountain. Civilian living areas targeted. Reports two flats buildings burning. Reports 2 hospitals including children hospital hit multiple times. Heavy casualties reported at hospitals, unconfirmed.

and so it goes.......

Absolutely terrible when there are civilian casualties. Perhaps if the seperatists didn't base themselves in residential areas this wouldn't happen so often.


mark 247 - the size of the far right in a country is not necessarily an indication of it's effectiveness, or not. It's how committed they are, and the "Banderistas" are committed. Also, the presence of private militias among the various oligarchs (illegal by Ukraine Law) and the "independence" they seem to have does not help proceedings. It takes 2 sides to fight, and neither side seems to have any real desire not to - the West because of the "seperatists", the East because of continued attacks from the west - Poroshenko's ceasefire seemed to be observed more in the breaking of, than observance of.

Fair call. Poroshenko's ceasefire lasted 10 days and the seperatists in this time really didn't cease much firing. Although perhaps some of their 'leaders' said they had agreed to the ceasefire, it is clear that their is no real chain of command - they're a bit of a mess propped up by Russian weapons.


Fair enough. I don't believe that it is a Russian instigated incident. For starters the people were on the streets for months before Euromaiden. Of course Russia will benefit from snafooing Crimea, but I reckon that's part payment for debt and democracy ;). Bottom line, you can't have protesters winning those sorts of protests. But yeah, there could be many reasons for it... yet they were peaceful before the fracking protest :bleh:

An interesting read I thought (http://www.globalresearch.ca/shale-projects-and-gas-fracking-in-eastern-europe/5357216) ... and another more murkey one. (http://www.tol.org/client/article/23846-ukraine-environment-shale-gas.html)

Edit: You said "The sad thing about this conflict is the huge propaganda involved", that was the reference for the propaganda comment.

Russian didn't instigate Euromaidan, Vickor Yanukovych caused that through and through just like the Orange Revolution. Russia did however clearly use their military to take Crimea (Putin has said this now) and they are clearly letting weapons get through to the separatists.

Part payment for debt and democracy?! Crimea was a legitimate part of Ukraine and before this all happened the Crimean population didn't have a problem with this. It has always been a bit of controversial topic for some Russians, but some don't think Ukraine should be independent at all.. some still say "на Украине" instead of "в Украине" dating back to when it was part of the Soviet Union. That said, having debt doesn't mean any country can just invade another, and Russia didn't even have a problem with this before they lost their "yes man" Yanukovych in Kyiv, who was and still is just a thug.

[mark247]

And Mashman, I'll certainly check out those links!

[mashman]

And Mashman, I'll certainly check out those links!

lol... you'll find Yanukovych's name mentioned.

[mashman]

Russian didn't instigate Euromaidan, Vickor Yanukovych caused that through and through just like the Orange Revolution. Russia did however clearly use their military to take Crimea (Putin has said this now) and they are clearly letting weapons get through to the separatists.

Part payment for debt and democracy?! Crimea was a legitimate part of Ukraine and before this all happened the Crimean population didn't have a problem with this. It has always been a bit of controversial topic for some Russians, but some don't think Ukraine should be independent at all.. some still say "на Украине" instead of "в Украине" dating back to when it was part of the Soviet Union. That said, having debt doesn't mean any country can just invade another, and Russia didn't even have a problem with this before they lost their "yes man" Yanukovych in Kyiv, who was and still is just a thug.

Aye, there are wrongs and there are wrongs... the wrongs are a govt requirement for some reason.

What I was aiming for was that there was a popular vote over Crimea... and however questionable it is it was done using democracy. There be nasty nasty men in them thar hills. However the people did get on at one point in time and I've seen some positive steps being taken by the people of the country, as well as some questionable ones (yes, on TV... I imagine the rest). Not that that offers any form of comfort, but it's over nothing more than rights to resources and the guidance of policy by applying financial pressure... give or take.

[Brian d marge]

I want to know how long it will be before the eu use the word austerity

[mark247]

Aye, there are wrongs and there are wrongs... the wrongs are a govt requirement for some reason.

What I was aiming for was that there was a popular vote over Crimea... and however questionable it is it was done using democracy. There be nasty nasty men in them thar hills. However the people did get on at one point in time and I've seen some positive steps being taken by the people of the country, as well as some questionable ones (yes, on TV... I imagine the rest).

I just find it hard to believe that a general trend ( surveys over previous years shows more and more support for Crimea to stay an autonomous republic within Ukraine ) instantly turns from 65% (ish) support in 2013 to 97% for joining Russia. Even if they were all diehard Russian patriots I can't see this happening. A more than questionable referendum, at gunpoint, is not using democracy.. it is pure bullshit.

[mashman]

I just find it hard to believe that a general trend ( surveys over previous years shows more and more support for Crimea to stay an autonomous republic within Ukraine ) instantly turns from 65% (ish) support in 2013 to 97% for joining Russia. Even if they were all diehard Russian patriots I can't see this happening. A more than questionable referendum, at gunpoint, is not using democracy.. it is pure bullshit.

lol... I don't disagree with you. However the democratic system was used, tis the outcome that is questionable... and the reasons for that outcome as a thing that the tin foil hat fraternity get to kick about in 10 years time.

[mark247]

I guess our ideas of democracy are different. Faking democracy is not democracy ;) In that case Lukashenka and Assad are both democratically elected also (actually lukashenka is arguably reasonably popular in Belarus).

[mashman]

I guess our ideas of democracy are different. Faking democracy is not democracy ;) In that case Lukashenka and Assad are both democratically elected also (actually lukashenka is arguably reasonably popular in Belarus).

What can I tell ya, the world's a complete basket case. TV is more powerful than the gun :laugh:

[mark247]

What can I tell ya, the world's a complete basket case. TV is more powerful than the gun :laugh:

Especially if you watch that shit on RT :D

[mashman]

Especially if you watch that shit on RT :D

:clap: It only counts if you believe it.

[mark247]

:clap: It only counts if you believe it.

I suppose, but people still reference it!

[Brian d marge]

I get mine from fox news

[mashman]

I suppose, but people still reference it!

Perhaps they should reference their brain with the new information and apply Occam's razor like me :killingme

[mashman]

I get mine from fox news

They're really bad actors.

[Brian d marge]

Uncle ronnie was an actor

[mashman]

Uncle ronnie was an actor

They're technically his bastard love children?

[SPman]

Fair call. Poroshenko's ceasefire lasted 10 days and the seperatists in this time really didn't cease much firing. Nor did the Ukies Although perhaps some of their 'leaders' said they had agreed to the ceasefire, it is clear that their is no real chain of command - they're a bit of a mess propped up by Russian weapons.In command of the "troops" seems to be Igor Strelkov and Fyodor Berezin. Most of their weapons including tanks, up til now have been captured or otherwise obtained from Ukraine depots and troops, some of whom have been "coming across to the seperatist side". More stuff is increasingly being "found", close to the border - the more sophisticated anti aircraft stuff and the like.......and conflict, like a candle flame to moths, is drawing mercenaries to both sides! there is currently no indication of hard Russian troops coming across - Putin is playing a walk the tightrope game...the US and Nato are being more blatant about it....approx 300 US "advisors".
Ukraine is basically broke, due to the depredations of oligarchs bleeding the place dry. they still owe over $2B in unpaid gas bills and have been illegally tapping into the line to maintain supply. That's why Russia is trying to build another line through Bulgaria - until the US leaned on them to get them to stop the line. It's all insane politics, and everyone in the middle is being stiffed!
Krim was never going to be let go by the Russians - being one of their largest naval bases and having up to 20,000 troops stationed there at any one time (by agreement with Ukraine) There were officially 16,000 there when the takeover happened. A 97% vote does seem to be within the bounds of most massaged votes - I guess if the "noes', don't vote, or aren't allowed to vote, this will happen. Most authoritarians like a nice 96-99% vote in their favour!

Earlier report on Kramatorsk....

13 – Militiaman’s Report on the Situation in Kramatorsk, June 29, 2014, 12:28

In Kramatorsk, there is hunger due to nonpayment of pensions and wages. The biggest problem in Kramatorsk now is not the shelling, but hunger. And, to boot, people cannot leave the city. They hoped that payments of pensions and wages would be resumed, and stayed here. And now they stayed too long – they have nothing now. Buses are being organized, some have been evacuated, but people are afraid to travel without money. They have been promised they would be fed, but a man can’t believe [promises] blindly, and that’s why people have stayed here.

Only about 1% of what Kramatorsk needs is delivered by means of humanitarian aid. Half of the city’s population, or about 100 thousand people, remain in the city; they need food. And all we get is a ton [of foodstuffs] a day.

The Ukrainian army cut off all the humanitarian corridors three days ago, and if, before, vans with cereals would arrive from Russian, we have not received any in several days. Grandmothers come to us, they say that they have not eaten anything but cherries and mulberries in a week. People have not been paid for two months. It’s good that it’s summer now, not winter, or we would have another Leningrad on our hands. And in Slavyansk everything is worse, by an order of magnitude.

Last night there was a skirmish near the airfield, then, from one until two in the morning, the city was shelled from the Meloviye Mountains. We have no information regarding victims.

[angle]

I find Russia asking for more debt payments from Ukraine a joke... Why? Should Russia supply gas to Ukraine for free?

Russia did however clearly use their military to take Crimea (Putin has said this now) and they are clearly letting weapons get through to the separatists.
Could you please expand on how Russia used its military to take Crimea (where was the Ukrainian military when this was happening) and where did Putin admit it. Also, please provide some proof regarding letting weapons through.

Crimea was a legitimate part of Ukraine and before this all happened the Crimean population didn't have a problem with this.
Really? How was it legitimised then?

Absolutely terrible when there are civilian casualties. Perhaps if the seperatists didn't base themselves in residential areas this wouldn't happen so often. Where were those "separatists" in Mariupol and Odessa?

... some still say "на Украине" instead of "в Украине" dating back to when it was part of the Soviet Union.
They say it iaw russian grammar.

That said, having debt doesn't mean any country can just invade another, and Russia didn't even have a problem with this before they lost their "yes man" Yanukovych in Kyiv, who was and still is just a thug.
When did Russia invade Ukraine?

I just find it hard to believe that a general trend ( surveys over previous years shows more and more support for Crimea to stay an autonomous republic within Ukraine ) instantly turns from 65% (ish) support in 2013 to 97% for joining Russia. Even if they were all diehard Russian patriots I can't see this happening. A more than questionable referendum, at gunpoint, is not using democracy.. it is pure bullshit.
Please provide some proof of that referendum being conducted at gunpoint because the OSCE and the UN are not aware. If you can't see it happening (especially taking into account the unconstitutional coup) that is your problem, not theirs.


Especially if you watch that shit on RT
Could you please expand on that as well, or is it shit just because it does not agree with you?

[avgas]

It's important not to make things should so black and white saying things like Crimea is "effectively Russian supporters only." What about the Ukrainians and native Tatar? There is nowhere in Ukraine which is "only" anything.

I think it's important to remember Ukrainians in Crimea. Ukrainian speaking high schools have been made to change and Crimean Universities with many students from main land Ukraine are in worse shape. It's made out as if Crimea never fitted in Ukraine. That's rubbish. From my experience in my short time in Crimea and having studied the area in depth there was very little issue with it being Ukrainian before the Russian media striked fear in to the Russian speaking population making them think Ukraine had been taken over by fascists. It really wasn't an issue before. My Ukrainian and Russian colleagues and friends never mentioned it as an issue before.

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk
Tatar's now have the ability to "cross the bridge" to return to the other Tatar regions. Before they had a horrible immigration setup.
Problem was not really being Ukrainian - was being European. For everything the Russians took - the Europeans doubled the trouble.
Crimea/Ukraine had 2 masters. Crimea actually had 3 masters if you consider that many Ukrainians considered Crimea a grey area.
Which is why when it did "give up" many "Ukrainians" would spout the phrase "Crimea is Crimea, they are not Ukraine" meaning the damage was done prior to the whole event. Pretty much Portugal on a different level.

Not saying the Russian take-over was the best thing. But I can see their point - now they server only 1 master, rather than 3.

Also check your stats. The voting form didn't have the option to remain part of Ukraine. It was a) Join Russian and b) Remain Independent.

So they would have had to abstain from question one, and select b to have to option to be connected to Ukraine, but as an independent state.
But as mentioned, the damage was already done, so Crimea would have become an independent state of Ukraine, or Russia or Even its own country.

[mark247]

My apologies, I'm tapping this out over breakfast and I"m late for work so if there may be many typos.


Why? Should Russia supply gas to Ukraine for free?

They shouldn't. But they shouldn't sign a gas deal with Ukraine where by Ukraine gets a discount on gas in return to letting the Black Sea Fleet sit in Crimea, and then invade Crimea opportunitistically later. This isn't the 19th century.


Could you please expand on how Russia used its military to take Crimea (where was the Ukrainian military when this was happening) and where did Putin admit it. Also, please provide some proof regarding letting weapons through.

All those little green men with Russian military equipment were Russian military bro.

"We had to take unavoidable steps so that events did not develop as they are currently developing in southeast Ukraine," Putin said in a televised call-in with the nation. "Of course our troops stood behind Crimea's self-defence forces." (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/17/russia-putin-crimea-idUKL6N0N921H20140417)


Really? How was it legitimised then?

Russia gave it to Ukraine? It's been Ukraine almost half a century? Every country on the planet (including Russia) accepted this and even signed agreements on this.


Where were those "separatists" in Mariupol and Odessa?

There are reports literally bus loads of "angry Ukrainians" turned up from Transnistria in Odessa. I'm sure locals were involved too, I'm not denying that.


They say it iaw russian grammar.

Of course it's grammar. But I have heard it myself in person when Russians have intentionally used the wrong one infront of Ukrainians. They don't have an excuse like most westerns do when we say "The Ukraine." Urrrrgh.


When did Russia invade Ukraine?

Ffs.


Please provide some proof of that referendum being conducted at gunpoint because the OSCE and the UN are not aware. If you can't see it happening (especially taking into account the unconstitutional coup) that is your problem, not theirs.

Many people were scared to even vote in it.


Could you please expand on that as well, or is it shit just because it does not agree with you?

There are stories bouncing around the net about reporters being told what to report, literally someone turns up and says "You must write a report about how Germany's economy is dying" etc. The thing that pisses me off the most is when they do a report on some recent event, lets say an American ship sailing into the Black Sea, and there "guest expert" is always some random american blogger with no credentials other than he bought a domain name and can type, and the videos they show beside it are videos not related at all of jet fighters landing on air craft carriers. It's pure sensationalized crap to appeal to the ignorant.


Tatar's now have the ability to "cross the bridge" to return to the other Tatar regions. Before they had a horrible immigration setup.
Problem was not really being Ukrainian - was being European. For everything the Russians took - the Europeans doubled the trouble.
Crimea/Ukraine had 2 masters. Crimea actually had 3 masters if you consider that many Ukrainians considered Crimea a grey area.
Which is why when it did "give up" many "Ukrainians" would spout the phrase "Crimea is Crimea, they are not Ukraine" meaning the damage was done prior to the whole event. Pretty much Portugal on a different level.

Not saying the Russian take-over was the best thing. But I can see their point - now they server only 1 master, rather than 3.

Also check your stats. The voting form didn't have the option to remain part of Ukraine. It was a) Join Russian and b) Remain Independent.

So they would have had to abstain from question one, and select b to have to option to be connected to Ukraine, but as an independent state.
But as mentioned, the damage was already done, so Crimea would have become an independent state of Ukraine, or Russia or Even its own country.

Yes you are right about the referendum. My point was: in 2013 Crimeans were increasing becoming more supportive of staying as they were as part of Ukraine, and then bam, it all changes instantly. That doesn't fly with me.

[SPman]

and there "guest expert" is always some random american blogger with no credentials other than he bought a domain name and can type

I don't know about that - I don't watch much RT

The bloggers from america I follow certainly have credentials - some stretching back a long way

This guy is interesting - having lived in Kiev and Odessa for several years until quite recently....although you may consider him slightly biased.

http://grahamwphillips.com/2014/05/06/the-odessa-massacre-a-personal-tribute/

Today, the Ukraine army is doing it's best to flatten Donetsk and Lugansk, with concerted artillery and airpower strikes against the cities. It's all very well saying the "separatists shouldn't "hide' in the towns, but that's never been an option throughout recorded history. It also shows the total disdain the Kiev government has for Donbass!

Ukraine, however, is just another pawn in the "game" being played out by the US against Russia, China and to a lesser extent, Iran & North Korea - the only countries that can stand, or are currently standing against US hegemony over the world! Like Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Somalia etc, it is of no account to the amoral criminals running this world!

[mark247]

Although civilian buildings have been hit I think the Ukrainian military has shown restraint and tried not to "flatten" cities. If you want to see a flattened city look up Grozny during the Chechen War. I'm not saying the military in Ukraine hasnt unfortunately hit some civilian infrastructure or apartments, but I think if the Ukrainian army could quite happily flatten a city from afar if that was the aim.

I'll check the blog out, cheers.

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

[avgas]

Problem is that the higher ranks in the Ukraine Army are fookin useless too.

So the Army have to hit the buildings when shot on during the ceasefire otherwise they would have kept getting shot. Now the ceasefire is off, it is better for them because they can just do a warning spray and the Russian separatists will do the same......both keeping their distance and no bombing.

As for Kiev. That place was fucked to begin with - or did we all forget the 6 month protest from last year that wasn't able to remove the prior government.

Ukraine wanted change, they got it. It might not have been the change they wanted - but that's how these things happen.

History should have taught them something.

[SPman]

The Ukrainian revolution has been very bad for business in the country. But for Igor Kolomoisky’s Privatbank there has been compensation of almost a billion dollars in state funds: publicly, rival Ukrainian commercial banks call that favouritism; privately, Ukrainian business as usual.

Privatbank is Ukraine’s largest commercial bank. Since the replacement of the Ukrainian Government in February, and the start of the International Monetary Fund’s (IMF) financial aid programme in April, Privatbank has been the largest beneficiary of what the IMF and the Ukrainian Ministry of Finance are calling Emergency Liquidity Assistance (ELA) to the country’s banks. Published measurements of Privatbank’s share of ELA range from 36% to more than 40% of the additional financing which has flowed out of Ukrainian state funds into the commercial banks. Just how much Kolomoisky benefits, along with related companies to which Privatbank lends much of its loan book, is one of the control operations being performed this week, as the IMF’s Ukraine mission starts its first inspection since the IMF transferred $3.2 billion to the National Bank of Ukraine on May 7.

This is the first tranche of the $17.1 billion committed to Kiev by the IMF. The next tranche of $1.4 billion, according to the IMF’s published schedule, is due to be paid on July 25. The complete inspection and payment schedule looks like this:..........
http://johnhelmer.net/?p=11035
.

The IMF - <strike>Looting</strike> Helping countries financially since.......forever.

[mark247]

Although yes Poroshenko has a history with Yanukovych I think there will be change. His style is nothing like Yanukovych. The AA agreement is signed now, If you haven't yet I suggest having a read. The government has some solid things it must deliver on now and assistance it desperately needs which Russia could never give regarding reform. At the end of the day I hope Ukraine has some improvement, its a country full of great people and potential.

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

[Akzle]

i think 'murica should go and give them some freedom.

[mark247]

i think 'murica should go and give them some freedom.

Don't worry, the separatists are fighting for freedom, from what I'm not sure, but freedom.

[angle]

They shouldn't. But they shouldn't sign a gas deal with Ukraine where by Ukraine gets a discount on gas in return to letting the Black Sea Fleet sit in Crimea, and then invade Crimea opportunitistically later. This isn't the 19th century.
Again, when and how Russia invaded Crimea? Russia was allowed to have 25,000 troops to be present in Crimea under international regulations. There were only 18,000 Russian troops in Crimea during the above mentioned events. I'm not even mentioning that the majority of Ukrainian military in Crimea chose to go over to the Russian side, starting with the Chief of the Ukrainian Navy.



All those little green men with Russian military equipment were Russian military bro.

"We had to take unavoidable steps so that events did not develop as they are currently developing in southeast Ukraine," Putin said in a televised call-in with the nation. "Of course our troops stood behind Crimea's self-defence forces." (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/17/russia-putin-crimea-idUKL6N0N921H20140417)
Putin admitted that Russian forces helped the Crimean self defence forces to ensure that what happened in Odessa would not happen in Crimea. How is that a military take over?



Russia gave it to Ukraine? It's been Ukraine almost half a century? Every country on the planet (including Russia) accepted this and even signed agreements on this. Ukraine has only existed for 23 years, where did you get half a century from? Crimea was given to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist republic as an administrative state and this was done by Khruschev against the Soviet constitution (there was no referendum which was required). People who signed the documents that dissolved the USSR did not have the authority to do so, they have also done so against the will of the Soviet population who voted in a referendum. The break up of USSR was itself illegitimate and this problem will continue to break the surface in one form or another for many years to come.



There are reports literally bus loads of "angry Ukrainians" turned up from Transnistria in Odessa. I'm sure locals were involved too, I'm not denying that. There are also reports that it was all caused by aliens, and? In Mariupol an official service of the Ukrainian military - the National Guard willingly and on purpose, under authorisation of the current Ukranian goverment (under the direction of MP Lyashko to be precise) shot civilians dead.


Of course it's grammar. But I have heard it myself in person when Russians have intentionally used the wrong one infront of Ukrainians. They don't have an excuse like most westerns do when we say "The Ukraine." Urrrrgh.I'm sorry, but the Russians can speak their language however they like.


Many people were scared to even vote in it.
Proof please.


There are stories bouncing around the net about reporters being told what to report, literally someone turns up and says "You must write a report about how Germany's economy is dying" etc. The thing that pisses me off the most is when they do a report on some recent event, lets say an American ship sailing into the Black Sea, and there "guest expert" is always some random american blogger with no credentials other than he bought a domain name and can type, and the videos they show beside it are videos not related at all of jet fighters landing on air craft carriers. It's pure sensationalized crap to appeal to the ignorant. Are you saying that "some random american blogger" does not have the right to voice his opinion on TV, or because you don't like his credentials he is wrong? Everything else you described is common to media everywhere.


Yes you are right about the referendum. My point was: in 2013 Crimeans were increasing becoming more supportive of staying as they were as part of Ukraine, and then bam, it all changes instantly. That doesn't fly with me.Crimeans always wanted to be part of Russia. This is Crimea in 2010:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsJvQDcaA74

[mark247]

Again, when and how Russia invaded Crimea? Russia was allowed to have 25,000 troops to be present in Crimea under international regulations. There were only 18,000 Russian troops in Crimea during the above mentioned events. I'm not even mentioning that the majority of Ukrainian military in Crimea chose to go over to the Russian side, starting with the Chief of the Ukrainian Navy.

Okay lets not call it a invasion, but the Russian military very much assisted with its annexation. The Ukrainian military (the ones that didnt change over to Russia) were not given orders to resist, which ultimately led to peace being kept in the region. But I don't deny it, if there is any region in Ukraine which is Pro-Russian, it's Crimea.



Ukraine has only existed for 23 years, where did you get half a century from? Crimea was given to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist republic as an administrative state and this was done by Khruschev against the Soviet constitution (there was no referendum which was required). People who signed the documents that dissolved the USSR did not have the authority to do so, they have also done so against the will of the Soviet population who voted in a referendum. The break up of USSR was itself illegitimate and this problem will continue to break the surface in one form or another for many years to come.

I was referring to the 1954 transfer.

Sounds like you want to bring back the USSR.


There are also reports that it was all caused by aliens, and? In Mariupol an official service of the Ukrainian military - the National Guard willingly and on purpose, under authorisation of the current Ukranian goverment (under the direction of MP Lyashko to be precise) shot civilians dead.

Where is that reported? (genuinely interested)


I'm sorry, but the Russians can speak their language however they like.

Of course they can, still doesn't mean it's disrespectful. I'm not trying to say this is a big thing, but it happens.

Proof please.


Are you saying that "some random american blogger" does not have the right to voice his opinion on TV, or because you don't like his credentials he is wrong? Everything else you described is common to media everywhere.

Good on him for getting air time. Still doesn't mean he was carefully chosen by RT because his opinion aligned nicely with the Russian government's.

Yes I agree all of the media can be blamed for doing this, but RT really is the worst man.. it's like Fox but worse. It doesn't even try to be objective reporting


Crimeans always wanted to be part of Russia. This is Crimea in 2010:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsJvQDcaA74

Cool bike video, but that doesn't look like a fair sample of Crimeans. I was in Crimea in 2010 for a while and visited Sevastopol, Yalta, Alushta and I saw Ukrainian flags flying just like Russian flags.. everyone seemed reasonably content. I wouldn't mind betting most of those bikies are Russian holiday makers

When I was in Dnipropetrovsk (Great city, do visit) one time I saw a reasonably big Communist Party rally... and they're nt very popular..

I think we could argue all day :D It's nice to see other NZers having an interest in the region though, it's just a shame many people only show interest now that it's in turmoil (I mean Westerns in general).

[angle]

Okay lets not call it a invasion, but the Russian military very much assisted with its annexation. The Ukrainian military (the ones that didnt change over to Russia) were not given orders to resist, which ultimately led to peace being kept in the region. But I don't deny it, if there is any region in Ukraine which is Pro-Russian, it's Crimea.
Annexation or reunification? That is the question:)


Where is that reported? (genuinely interested)
For example:http://my.firedoglake.com/greydog/2014/05/16/a-bloody-holiday-in-mariupol/


Yes I agree all of the media can be blamed for doing this, but RT really is the worst man.. it's like Fox but worse. It doesn't even try to be objective reporting
To me RT seems to be the most objective world news network. But that's just my opinion.

[SPman]

A repeat - cluster bomb attacks on civilian targets in Lugansk (illegal) - but of course, these office workers are all "terrorists" and "subhuman" according to Kiev leaders!

On 2 June 2014 an air strike of the Ukrainian Air force on city of Lugansk resulted in 8 deaths and 28 wounded. Inna Vladimirovna Kukurudza (Кукурудза Инна Владимировна), an employee credit union was one the number of the innocent civilian victims murdered that day. She died in the ambulance after the horrific injuries that we see at the end of this video. This video was made as a tribute to her memory.

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/flq0W4UzR00" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

[SPman]

According to Kiev's own figures, the average Ukraine monthly net wage is now a paltry €173 a month. This is almost four times less than in neighboring Poland and nine times lower than in Moscow. Ukraine has overtaken Moldova as Europe's poorest state when measured in average monthly incomes.
Meanwhile, the richest Ukrainian, Rinat Akhmetov has a personal fortune of $12.6 billion according to Forbes and the new President Petro Poroshenko sits on $1.3 billion. Is it any wonder a large section of the public have had enough?

This is probably the central reason that inspired the violent overthrow of the previous Ukrainian government at Maidan earlier this year. It wasn't about the EU, the USA, Russia or NATO, it was prompted by frustration at 20 years of misrule by successive Ukrainian governments and by the Ukrainian people themselves who allowed it to happen....

[mark247]

Ukraine's average wage is certainly low. Even worse, similar to Russia, is the disparity between small towns and large centres in terms of wealth. People living in cities such as Dnipropetrovsk or Kiev do alright where as in the small rural areas, particularly the west, things are very desperate. In some cases this can lead to some thinking they'd be better off under Russia. I don't think this the case. Small rural areas in Russia are very poor compared to built up areas also.

Yanukovych made things even worse by further crippling the economy by offering expensive yet easy wins (putting a lot towards increased pensions) instead if investing the little bit of money the government had wisely.

This leads me to another thought. People who predict a similar thing could happen in Estonia's east, ie Russian annexation or referendum, should remember that living in a city like Narva is far better than living over the boarder in Ivangorod. I'd confidently say the Russian population, no matter how patriotic, realise they have things pretty good compared to Russians in Russia, and they aren't going to protest to have a downgrade.

Sent from my P6-U06 using Tapatalk

[mashman]

According to Kiev's own figures, the average Ukraine monthly net wage is now a paltry €173 a month. This is almost four times less than in neighboring Poland and nine times lower than in Moscow. Ukraine has overtaken Moldova as Europe's poorest state when measured in average monthly incomes.
Meanwhile, the richest Ukrainian, Rinat Akhmetov has a personal fortune of $12.6 billion according to Forbes and the new President Petro Poroshenko sits on $1.3 billion. Is it any wonder a large section of the public have had enough?

This is probably the central reason that inspired the violent overthrow of the previous Ukrainian government at Maidan earlier this year. It wasn't about the EU, the USA, Russia or NATO, it was prompted by frustration at 20 years of misrule by successive Ukrainian governments and by the Ukrainian people themselves who allowed it to happen....

I was seeing, a week or two ago, the state of the supermarket shelves, virtually bare.

[SPman]

I was seeing, a week or two ago, the state of the supermarket shelves, virtually bare.

http://rt.com/op-edge/170484-no-one-cared-about-ukraine/

[mark247]

To me RT seems to be the most objective world news network. But that's just my opinion.

Found the article I read, take from it what you want but buzzfeed hasn't seemed too loopy in the past.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/how-the-truth-is-made-at-russia-today

[Brian d marge]

Found the article I read, take from it what you want but buzzfeed hasn't seemed too loopy in the past.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/how-the-truth-is-made-at-russia-today
Rt has great tits

I like tits
Stephen

[SPman]

Mike Whitney is on to it (as usual)


In Ukraine, the US is using a divide and conquer strategy to pit the EU against trading partner Moscow. The State Department and CIA helped to topple Ukraine’s elected President Viktor Yanukovych and install a US stooge in Kiev who was ordered to cut off the flow of Russian gas to the EU and lure Putin into a protracted guerilla war in Ukraine. The bigwigs in Washington figured that, with some provocation, Putin would react the same way he did when Georgia invaded South Ossetia in 2006. But, so far, Putin has resisted the temptation to get involved which is why new puppet president Petro Poroshenko has gone all “Jackie Chan” and stepped up the provocations by pummeling east Ukraine mercilessly. It’s just a way of goading Putin into sending in the tanks.
But here’s the odd part: Washington doesn’t have a back-up plan. It’s obvious by the way Poroshenko keeps doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. That demonstrates that there’s no Plan B. Either Poroshenko lures Putin across the border and into the conflict, or the neocon plan falls apart, which it will if they can’t demonize Putin as a “dangerous aggressor” who can’t be trusted as a business partner.
So all Putin has to do is sit-tight and he wins, mainly because the EU needs Moscow’s gas. If energy supplies are terminated or drastically reduced, prices will rise, the EU will slide back into recession, and Washington will take the blame. So Washington has a very small window to draw Putin into the fray, which is why we should expect another false flag incident on a much larger scale than the fire in Odessa. Washington is going to have to do something really big and make it look like it was Moscow’s doing. Otherwise, their pivot plan is going to hit a brick wall.




Here’s a tidbit readers might have missed in the Sofia News Agency’s novinite site:
“Ukraine’s Parliament adopted .. a bill under which up to 49% of the country’s gas pipeline network could be sold to foreign investors. This could pave the way for US or EU companies, which have eyed Ukrainian gas transportation system over the last months.
…Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk was earlier quoted as saying that the bill would allow Kiev to “attract European and American partners to the exploitation and modernization of Ukraine’s gas transportation,” in a situation on Ukraine’s energy market he described as “super-critical”. Critics of the bill have repeatedly pointed the West has long been interest in Ukraine’s pipelines, with some seeing in the Ukrainian revolution a means to get access to the system. (Ukraine allowed to sell up to 49% of gas pipeline system (http://www.novinite.com/articles/161853/Ukraine+Allowed+to+Sell+Up+to+49+of+Gas+Pipeline+S ystem), novinite.com)

Boy, you got to hand it to the Obama throng. They really know how to pick their coup-leaders, don’t they? These puppets have only been in office for a couple months and they’re already giving away the farm.
And, such a deal! US corporations will be able to buy up nearly half of a pipeline that moves 60 percent of the gas that flows from Russia to Europe. That’s what you call a tollbooth, my friend; and US companies will be in just the right spot to gouge Moscow for every drop of natural gas that transits those pipelines. And gouge they will too, you can bet on it.
....This also explains why the Obama crowd is trying to torpedo Russia’s other big pipeline project called Southstream. Southstream is a good deal for Europe and Russia. On the one hand, it would greatly enhance the EU’s energy security, and on the other, it will provide needed revenues for Russia so they can continue to modernize, upgrade their dilapidated infrastructure, and improve standards of living.


http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/09/pushing-ukraine-to-the-brink/

[mashman]

Mike Whitney is on to it (as usual)

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/09/pushing-ukraine-to-the-brink/

Funny how the UN aren't berating Poroshenko for murdering the citizens yet feel the need to paint Putin as the butcher. The US fucking around in places a they have absolutely no right to be fucking around in is not a part of their history in the slightest.

[angle]

Found the article I read, take from it what you want but buzzfeed hasn't seemed too loopy in the past.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/how-the-truth-is-made-at-russia-today
What did you find so interesting about this article? It is a collection of poor clichés (some of which even contradict each other), with no factual information at all, let alone an attempt at analysis.

[mark247]

What did you find so interesting about this article? It is a collection of poor clichés (some of which even contradict each other), with no factual information at all, let alone an attempt at analysis.

I think there is some truth in it, and it isn't the only article on the net critizing Russia Today. It isn't a well written article by any means, but if what former employees said in it are true I think that does show that RT isn't completely 'objective.' I have a very hard time finding it any more believable than Fox or whatever.

[mashman]

I think there is some truth in it, and it isn't the only article on the net critizing Russia Today. It isn't a well written article by any means, but if what former employees said in it are true I think that does show that RT isn't completely 'objective.' I have a very hard time finding it any more believable than Fox or whatever.

So the shelling, empty stores, bodies, destroyed buildings etc... are all faked? Sometimes pictures tell a thousand words. Some tell a million. The most recent attempt at objectivity went out of the window when the cease fire was terminated.

[mark247]

So the shelling, empty stores, bodies, destroyed buildings etc... are all faked? Sometimes pictures tell a thousand words. Some tell a million. The most recent attempt at objectivity went out of the window when the cease fire was terminated.

So do you actually support the separatists in Eastern Ukraine? Or are you just against the Ukrainian government?

No, of course there has been shelling and other horrible things (Not that the Russian government can ever claim the moral high ground regarding this, remember Grozny).

I never said RT (or any other agency) puts out entirely fake news. I said a lot of their articles or reports are not objective and are sometimes excessively provocative. It is esspecially important to remember this due to the fact that RT is run by the Russian government. I just don't think it's going to report entirely fairing on what is going on in Ukraine. Again, I'm not denying shelling or anything liek that, that said, Russia Today (and other Russia media, but not only) have reported using a lot archived photos of other conflicts saying they're Ukraine. (http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-60-lies-about-ukraine)

I'm sorry, RT just really rarks me up. I did my master's partly on Russian politics and it required a lot of research. I learned not to believe a thing some news sites report on, one being RT.

[mark247]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvX04kFmXKA

Gubarev looks like he knows they're defeated.

[mashman]

So do you actually support the separatists in Eastern Ukraine? Or are you just against the Ukrainian government?

I support the people. Not those with guns. Not those with an agenda that isn't cooperative. Those who should be allowed to go about their lives without some useless twats playing war games getting in the way of their day. The media show and print what they show and print. The politicians politic. I decide to believe what I decide believe. People suffer. Nothing is done.

[mark247]

I support the people. Not those with guns. Not those with an agenda that isn't cooperative. Those who should be allowed to go about their lives without some useless twats playing war games getting in the way of their day. The media show and print what they show and print. The politicians politic. People suffer. Nothing is done.

Nice to hear.

It's scary that the separatists have retreated to Donetsk. Why cant this battle be fought, by those with guns, out of the way of the innocent.

[angle]

I think there is some truth in it, and it isn't the only article on the net critizing Russia Today. It isn't a well written article by any means, but if what former employees said in it are true I think that does show that RT isn't completely 'objective.' I have a very hard time finding it any more believable than Fox or whatever.
I agree that RT is not completely objective (as pretty much all of us), however, as I said previously, in my opinion they are the most objective out of all world news agencies known to me, even though my point of view differs from theirs significantly on certain things. Criticism is good, but it needs to be backed up by something real not by "some former employee said". Currently they are the only news network that actually covers things like Syria or Ukraine, providing real video footage most of the time.

[angle]

Nice to hear.

It's scary that the separatists have retreated to Donetsk. Why cant this battle be fought, by those with guns, out of the way of the innocent.
That is a question that has been posed to the Ukrainian government for a few months now. The self defence forces in Eastern Ukraine appeared when the 'Maydan Defence' and the 'Right Sector' along with the National Guard started killing civilians in Eastern Ukraine.