The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

[speights_bud]

Funny how this topic always goes full circle.

-"what about air cooled (insert shitty outdated) engine xyz blah blah"

-Economical performance engines "not in the spirit" yet purchasing many thousand dollar produced "custom" workaround parts somehow is an excellent option.

-"that'll open a can of worms!" everyone will suddenly be producing 50hp huge overbored/stroked/magic/fxr killers.

-But someone might buy a ktm and potentially match my power that I spent $6k+ getting! Peasants don't deserve such power!



Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[F5 Dave]

That TF has many hours and some carefully chosen parts with outsourcing crank machining. It was a friggin lemon as was and that had been reconditioned and someone play with it. Miles off a FXR.

As I said there's an RM80 chassis being used with shortened suspension, rearsets, clipons and relaced rims that is ridden quite effectively. If he could get the (wait for it) TF engine up to speed and staying together it would be competitive.

[husaberg]

Funny how this topic always goes full circle.

-"what about air cooled (insert shitty outdated) engine xyz blah blah"

-Economical performance engines "not in the spirit" yet purchasing many thousand dollar produced "custom" workaround parts somehow is an excellent option.

-"that'll open a can of worms!" everyone will suddenly be producing 50hp huge overbored/stroked/magic/fxr killers.

-But someone might buy a ktm and potentially match my power that I spent $6k+ getting! Peasants don't deserve such power!



Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
the work around parts people have spent money and time on are to stay within the rules.
As i said Speedpro and Dave could easily have just put in a CR80 crank but they didnt because they wanted to stay with the rules.
They can also have put in CR80 Gearboxs they fit too.
Why should people who actually stumped up money and committed to the rules be penalized forever to save some money for some who aren't even racing in the on a bike thats not legal who want to change the rules, its ilogical.
This isnt a dig at you BTW.
If you want to let in MX engines open up the parts for the other currently legal classes to avoid the expensive work arround parts that the legal bikes are forced to use.
THe only reason to use strike pistons is there is no other cheap option for the 100cc buckets.
I not in the spirit of the rules stuff doesnt wash Excluding competition engines its then the actual reason the class was created and has always been a fundamental defining part of the rules. its not the spirit its always been written as clear as the MNZ appears to be able to write it. its a non competition engine class. its a fundelmetal defining rule of the class. spirit implies it was only what the rule means. Non competition engine is what the rules say.

[tigertim20]

Im not a bucket racer - but I did look into it some time back, attracted to the ideology - build a 'racebike' that was a cheap peice of shit that everyone could get involved with without spending heaps of money.

decided against it, as it was obviously taken quite seriously by many, and good odds Id spend so much on trying to be competitive as i would if I went racing in clubmans on something relatively modern.

Has anyone considered the possibility of a Max HP rule, with a system that allows someone to 'claim' an engine swap with someone else?
would that not automatically make it pointless and un-appealing to spend the fuckloads of money that ultimately makes bucket racing so serious, and force it back to the original mentality?

[F5 Dave]

Can't max hp without on site dyno. Claiming rule would just end up with people refusing and leaving in a huff, never to return after they spent, I dunno, say, as many hours as I have trying to get an old TF to be competitive for a mate. Need a pipe built. How many hours or dollars there?

When I started there were heaps of bikes around. They started to dwindle. 50 class was saved by the RG50 in the 90s. 100 class by the FXR in 2000.

20 years on. . .

[speights_bud]

the work arround patrs people have spent money and time on are to stay within the rules.
As i said Speedpro and Dave could easily have just put in a CR80 crank but they didn't because they wanted to stay with the rules.
They can also have put in CR80 Gearboxs they fit too.
Firstly, good on them for staying within the rules. They chose to go down that route instead of going 4T.
Just because Honda and Ducati spent bazillions of dollars developing their electronic packages in MotoGP it didn't give them the authority to demand Dorna abandon the spec ECU rules.
Just because someone has heavily invested in one area it doesnt give them any authority. Well no more than any other voting MNZ member.

Why should people who actually stumped up money and committed to the rules be penalized forever to save some money for some who aren't even racing in the on a bike thats not legal who want to change the rules, its ilogical.
Tough titties, nobody cries more than those who spend money and therefore seem to expect some special status because they are part of "the elite". Commit to the rules by being flexible enough to try new things as the rules develop with the ages. Pretty shit for the 2T guys who have seen the 150 oversize limits etc lifted to suit a few with large wallets wanting bespoke FXR builds. The 2T guys were already dwindling in numbers so I guess their concerns at the time didn't matter...

This isnt a dig at you BTW.
:motu::lol::cool::cool: No problemo and likewise from here.


If you want to let in MX engines open up the parts for the other currently legal classes to avoid the expensive work arround parts that the legal bikes are forced to use.
The MX engines have the capacity handicap to offset the performance parts. (The last proposal even required them to be completely unmodified internals with standard pistons etc.)


THe only reason to use strike pistons is there is no other cheap option for the 100cc buckets.
If suitable replacement parts are too hard to get then yes these rules need to be fixed!



...10 Char...

[husaberg]

...10 Char...

i added more but the wifi is on the fritz so you would have missed it.
What i am trying to say is it comes down to fairness for if you want to let comp engines in to save money for potential racers how is it logical to not first fix the ules to save money for the ones that are racing legally
its a double kick in the teeth

[speights_bud]

i added more but the wifi is on the fritz
What i am trying to say is it comes down to fairness for if you want to let comp engines in to save money for potential racers how is it logical to not first fix the ules to save money for the ones that are racing legally

Yep I agree, but the attempts to open up the parts for the 2T guys also got poo-pooed many times. I believe the 85 talks started as an alternative in desperation to have modern engines to work with

[husaberg]

Can't max hp without on site dyno. Claiming rule would just end up with people refusing and leaving in a huff, never to return after they spent, I dunno, say, as many hours as I have trying to get an old TF to be competitive for a mate. Need a pipe built. How many hours or dollars there?

When I started there were heaps of bikes around. They started to dwindle. 50 class was saved by the RG50 in the 90s. 100 class by the FXR in 2000.

20 years on. . .

Aussie used to have a max dollar claiming rule they got rid of it i think they run about 5 or more classes to accommodate the different bikes.

[Grumph]

I cant see the MNZ not resisting the urge "to be seen as Green" by allowing ethanol in the very near future. which would solve the AC 2t heating

I'd say highly unlikely. They've missed the chance once before. If they did allow it (E85) it would almost certainly be only in 4T's.
There's still a fear of it's use in 2T's at high level in MNZ.

[husaberg]

Yep I agree, but the attempts to open up the parts for the 2T guys also got poo-pooed many times. I believe the 85 talks started as an alternative in desperation to have modern engines to work with

Moderns cool but those KTM's are to spendy too much a leap forward in design and potential over anything curently legal. just my two cents but if its to e fair maybe make the 85's cylinder reed all the KX's and Cr's were, as were the earlier YZ and RM's.
they would be the bulk of the cheap mx 85's anyway. sounds like an effective compromise? at the same time let the 100's use competition internals gears clutch and crank same for the 4t's
it will never fly though. Too many mixed agendas


I'd say highly unlikely. They've missed the chance once before. If they did allow it (E85) it would almost certainly be only in 4T's.
There's still a fear of it's use in 2T's at high level in MNZ.

Rightfully so:msn-wink:
i cant believe they ever let the 400's in F3 so anythings possible.
I read the mon rules today amazing no ones protested the non std cylinders on the 400's, I can see a massive potential can of worms there when you read it.
Have a look and see what you think.



1.2 Multi-cylinder production based two strokes up to 400cc
5 Specifications for up to 400cc two stroke production based machines:
The machine must be based on a production motorcycle. No homologation is
necessary however the Road Race Commission or Technical Steward shall
have the power to rule whether or not a machine is eligible.

5.1 Capacity:
Must not exceed 400cc. Machines with re-bored cylinders must remain within the capacity limit.
5.2 Engine Specifications:
a) The crankcase must be from a road going motorcycle and may be examined to ensure compliance, but may be modified without further
restriction.

b) Any aftermarket or race piston and ring set may be fitted provided the cylinder remains within the capacity limit.
c) The original carburettor may be replaced by any brand or type

[Grumph]

i cant believe they ever let the 400's in F3 so anythings possible.
I read the mon rules today amazing no ones protested the non std cylinders on the 400's, I can see a massive potential can of worms there when you read it.
Have a look and see what you think.

Not really relevant here - but I'd say reluctantly they're legal. The aftermarket barrels are based on the Banshee - which is based on a road going motorcycle engine. Another case of the law of unintended consequences.

[F5 Dave]

The Banshee is of course not a road going motorcycle.

The RZ is however and the Banshee is based on that.

But back to the thread; it's really about what is available in 2019 to race with.
You could draw in a pre2010 rule or whatever if the ktm for example stood out and was deemed to be excluded. Std ignitions would hold them back if required but I don't think it is required.

[jasonu]

2V to 210cc seems fair brings in a few old honda based buckets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PCkvCPvDXk

Spencer Bell used to get around Mt Welly very rapidly on his Honda 125 2v single. He would have been totally untouchable on a 210cc.

[husaberg]

Spencer Bell used to get around Mt Welly very rapidly on his Honda 125 2v single. He would have been totally untouchable on a 210cc.

Most of those 125-130's were a fair big bigger than 130cc
200 sleeve bores in, throw in a DR200 piston a XT225 rod no visable exterior difference.

[jasonu]

Most of those 125-130's were a fair big bigger than 130cc
200 sleeve bores in, throw in a DR200 piston a XT225 rod no visable exterior difference.

Nope. Spencer Bell was totally within the rules. No question!

[tigertim20]

Can't max hp without on site dyno. Claiming rule would just end up with people refusing and leaving in a huff, never to return after they spent, I dunno, say, as many hours as I have trying to get an old TF to be competitive for a mate. Need a pipe built. How many hours or dollars there?

.

fair point - I suppose any rule suggestion will have it's shortfalls somewhere, like the below example, $$ spent doesnt allow for the professional engineer who can do a few thousand dollars worth of machining etc for 'free' in his own time etc, or the guys that got 'given' xyz parts.

It just seems like there are so many workarounds, stiulations, loopholes that bucketracing is as much chequebook racing as supersport is - at least that's my view as someone who has several times contemplated getting involved. - its the 'chequebook' image of it that turns me right off - can't be fucked doing it if Im going to get apped by every other cunt out there, and sure as fuck arent willing to spend thousands on a bucket - so I always end up back at - what's the fucking point? (for me) I suspect theres a lot of others out there with the same perspective, I know Ive floated the idea with several others who have ultimately had the same view as me - the original appeal is gone now - its become greatly competitive and accessible only to those with big bucks, special skills and engineering, or access to both.


Aussie used to have a max dollar claiming rule they got rid of it i think they run about 5 or more classes to accommodate the different bikes.

I suppose you could also try something like a max top speed allowed per class? exceed and lose x amount of points. that wouldnt be too hard to measure, and would level the field a bit. would enable people to use whatever the fuck engines and parts the wanted as a top speed means very quickly approaching the point of diminishing gains if you wanted to get fancy with your engineering or your money.

How may classes are currently run? - the "real bike" racing classes have evolved, changed, been modified, expanded and added to over and over to appease the various promoters or naysayers of various opinions. Some have argued thats just diluted the classes which I guess could be an issue for buckets as well?

[F5 Dave]

Spencer was within range of my 18hp H100 which had a dreadful chassis. He was clearly out riding me at the 2hr ( I was on 2nd he was pole) but home advantage I'm sure I could have beat him in a year of practice.

A GPR chassis and he wouldn't have seen which way I went.

That H pulled awesome stand up wheelies I felt like Troy Corser.

Funny as hell but I gave people rides and they couldn't believe it was the bike that just beat them.

[F5 Dave]

I still have ankle issues from that bike.

Ohakune I was leading a GP prelimin when Greenie came breezing past me at the end of the straight and then starfished on the ground so I could use him as a landing pad.

Had to run the 50 GP with a teatowel of ice in my boot. Chris Sales beat me. I think it would have been closer indeed otherwise.

[speedpro]

Ohakune I was leading a GP prelimin when Greenie came breezing past me at the end of the straight and then starfished on the ground so I could use him as a landing pad.


You still whinging about that? Let it go, move on, shit happens. If it's any consolation my knee still has a dent in it.

[speedpro]

Also, it's so funny to hear about how people are put off by the cheque book racers today. It's been the same story for 35+ years. Can't be bothered spending the time to make a competitive bike, don't want to spend the $$$ to get someone else to do it for them, and then whining about the cost putting them off. Like that guy a while back who proposed all these changes that should be allowed to make it competitive. Turns out he was describing his mates bike that he wanted a special sub-class for. pretty obvious in that case. At the very beginning I got accused of it. What the whingers never bothered to find out was that my bike was built over many nights by many friends for more or less $0
The more I think about it the more I think the rules should be left alone at the moment. Bikes are there to be ridden. You don't need a mega chassis to be fast, Gary runs a stock FXR chassis albeit with a few bits, and good luck getting past him if your name isn't Blair or Nate. Blair is quick plus it's obviously something he loves doing and he's bought himself a GPR and good on him. Others spend lots of $$$. It doesn't always end up with a winner but often that isn't the point.

[F5 Dave]

You still whinging about that? Let it go, move on, shit happens. If it's any consolation my knee still has a dent in it.
Actually somersaulting over you was a stand out moment. Racing against a good mate, just wish I'd had a faster bike.

I never went to look at the creek at the end of the straight till after we stopped racing there. Never wanted to know.

[husaberg]

Nope. Spencer Bell was totally within the rules. No question!


Spencer was within range of my 18hp H100 which had a dreadful chassis. He was clearly out riding me at the 2hr ( I was on 2nd he was pole) but home advantage I'm sure I could have beat him in a year of practice.

A GPR chassis and he wouldn't have seen which way I went.

That H pulled awesome stand up wheelies I felt like Troy Corser.

Funny as hell but I gave people rides and they couldn't believe it was the bike that just beat them.

Dug this up.
340291340292
Waikato Draught

[jasonu]

Dug this up.
340291340292
Waikato Draught

Good find. Pretty sure Lance Mc Donald and myself got them to come along. Entries were really low and we were trying anything we could think of to get it going again.

[husaberg]

Good find. Pretty sure Lance Mc Donald and myself got them to come along. Entries were really low and we were trying anything we could think of to get it going again.

I have posted stuff with Green on thr podium at the last Wigram plus some other stuff inc the Flet uniflow
340316340317340318340327340328
it was in a thread old Bucket pictures or something.
There were a lot of cool old pics along with a Cheater RM80 by the look of it.
340315

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/167592-A-photographic-history-of-Bucket-racing
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/155738-NZ-GP-Wall-of-Champions-(Please-help-complete-the-list)?p=1130621054#post1130621054

[F5 Dave]

Ha, that first article, I remember that race with Jason, it was close and good fun. I'd borrowed a crank seal from Jason (I'll get it back to you soon mate) and put it in late at Gary's place the night before. Sadly the header stud was a bit stripped and it leaked quite bad.y affecting performance. My boot was glazed with oil specs at the end.

That was probably the only time Gary's bike ran that well. And Darrins bike expiring wasn't common. Off to drop him off an RG250 engine in a few hours.

[jasonu]

Ha, that first article, I remember that race with Jason, it was close and good fun. I'd borrowed a crank seal from Jason and beat him to second place with it.

I still haven't gotten over that...

[speedpro]

Morley lapped me close to the end. He went past me and peeled into a hard left u-turn. The front tucked real good and I thought it was because he was getting past me and trying hard. Next lap I was close enough(just) to see him do exactly the same thing. Morley is a legend. At Foxton one year it had been pissing down for ages and the river had gone over the bank and flooded a large grassy area over the back of town. Morley lost it going down the back and ended up going across the flooded area. Pretty sure he never backed off despite being in muddy water about 200mm deep, on maybe grass, with no idea what was under the water. Manfeild was the same when we raced there one year. Pretty sure it was 3 Shirriffs and me doing laps. Morley kept pitching it up the inside of whoever was in front just as we peeled into the return road that big bikes used at the end of a race to get back to the pits. Lap after lap he couldn't make it stick with the bike sliding wide. Awesome to watch. Got pretty wobbly drinking champagne in the hot sun with Morley afterwards.

[F5 Dave]

I came back through Wodville last year same day as mx gp held there so went had a look. After 15min realised I was sitting pretty much next to him . Hats & sunnies make everyone look generic.

[TZ350]

.
As a big part of Buckets has been the very clever development done. So is there any appetite for a development class where things that don't currently fit the current simple Miniature RR rule set could be run with the organizers and official MNZ blessing, for insurance purposes etc etc?

Thinking of specials like EV and Turbo 125 twins, uni-flows, XR180's and MX85, clever stuff that could be allowed to run. Welcomed for its "Bucket" like innovation and given official residency but not entitled to full citizenship as F4 or F5 in the Bucket community.

So is there any appetite for a more flexible development class with its own title separate from F4, F5? No points and minimal administrative overhead.

The rule could be as simple as:- Miniature RR "Development" class, at the organizers discretion and less than 26 kW SAE at the rear wheel.
.

[husaberg]

.
As a big part of Buckets has been the very clever development done. So is there any appetite for a development class where things that don't currently fit the current simple Miniature RR rule set could be run with the organizers and official MNZ blessing, for insurance purposes etc etc?

Thinking of specials like EV and Turbo 125 twins, uni-flows, XR180's and MX85, clever stuff that could be allowed to run. Welcomed for its "Bucket" like innovation and given official residency but not entitled to full citizenship as F4 or F5 in the Bucket community.

So is there any appetite for a more flexible development class with its own title separate from F4, F5? No points and minimal administrative overhead.

The rule could be as simple as:- Miniature RR "Development" class, at the organizers discretion and less than 26 kW SAE at the rear wheel.
.

The way i see it it comes down to fairness.
its wrong on one hand to force others to spend and go to lots of engineering to keep to non comp rules to use parts like strike pistons or in your case a NSR cylinder
Then say but other currently non legal 85mx engines can be used to save money for some other people who don't race.

like i mentioned earlier rather than a custom crank pin being used to destroke a MB100 they could have used a far cheaper CR80 crank.
or instead of scouring the earth to find rare MB5 transmissions they could have used a CR80 one.

[TZ350]

The way i see it it comes down to fairness.

Agreed, fairness, and the proposal is entirely different classes F4, F5 and Development. Three entirely separate classifications to chose to get involved in.

Running in Development, there are only two Development class rules and no prizes, (Rule 1) less than 25kW DIN rear wheel hp and (Rule 2) at the organizers discretion. It follows from rule 2 that if the organizer thinks the Development bike is grossly over powered then they can demand an observed certified dyno report or something before allowing it out again. Pretty simple and everyone is legally covered.

As always it is the competitors responsibility to present a legal bike. Dyno to hard? then don't look to fast and just get out there and with the blessing of the organizer enjoy your Development class creation.

Currently organizers take a risk and out of interest allow non F4, F5 class legal buckets on the track. Much better if they could be legitimate and everyone covered by MNZ's legal umbrella.

Development class:-
For minimum administrative overhead, prizes/places are optional.
and
Rule 1:- less than 25kW DIN rear wheel hp.
Rule 2:- Entry at the organizers discretion.

Fair and Simple.

[TZ350]

.
Development class is so simple and fair that you could turn up with a sidecar or solo. Under rule 2 the organizer would then slot you into whatever part of the days program that is appropriate.

[husaberg]

Agreed, fairness, and the proposal is entirely different classes F4, F5 and Development. Three entirely separate classifications to chose from.

Running in Development, there are only two Development class rules and no prizes, (Rule 1) less than 25kW DIN rear wheel hp and (Rule 2) at the organizers discretion. If the organizer thinks the Development bike is grossly over powered they can demand an observed certified dyno report before allowing it out again. Pretty simple and everyone is legally covered.

As always it is the competitors responsibility to present a legal bike. Dyno to hard? then don't look to fast and just get out there and with the blessing of the organizer enjoy your Development class creation.

Currently organizers take a risk and out of interest allow non class legal buckets on the track. Much better if they could be legitimate and everyone covered by MNZ's legal umbrella.

Development class:-
For minimum administrative overhead no prizes/places.
and
Rule 1:- less than 25kW DIN rear wheel hp.
Rule 2:- Entry at the organizers discretion.

Fair and Simple.

Simplier and more wide open 1502t and 250 4t

[TZ350]

Simplier and more wide open 1502t and 250 4t

How does EV fit into that? We are looking to the future here.

[husaberg]

How does EV fit into that? We are looking to the future here.

They would be iin the EV geriatric electric scooter class.:bye:
who wants to watch a race where the only mecanical noise is a rattling chain?
Even George lucas when they made star wars made the star of the shows engine sound based on a P51 mustang


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvsB5H1xeuA

[TZ350]

They would be iin the EV geriatric electric scooter class.:bye:

As I said, looking to the future here....... :laugh:

[speights_bud]

Then say but other currently non legal 85mx engines can be used to save money for some other people who don't race.

What does "people who don't race" have to do with anything?

Attracting those people is exactly what the sport needs to survive.


Also as far as running classes go clubs can make up whatever classes they want. There is no reason why a Wellington event can't run mx85's or development etc. It just needs to have suitable supplementary regs outlining the class rules and be approved by mnz at permit time.

The downside is the investment of a bike to run in such a class that is only run by one club.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[F5 Dave]

And try finding an MB100 to build something from. Outside my garage of course. But those air-cooled CR80s are hens teeth too.

But I can buy $1200 85s all day long.

And they ain't that fast.

[mr bucketracer]

go air cooled mx125 engines , around 1980 , 24mm carb

[jasonu]

go air cooled mx125 engines , around 1980 , 24mm carb

Good luck finding any of those that haven't been totally thrashed to death. And the good ones will be in the hands of the popular VMX crew.

[F5 Dave]

And too powerful.

85s would only equal an FXR with carb and pipe.

[speedpro]

On my old TS100. making all of 19.9hp measured at the back wheel, i had real good races at a meeting at Manfeild. It was either a "2 Wheeler" or "Golden Handlebars". Buckets were put in the "200 dirt bike, road race class". 3 of us ended up dicing for the lead. Stefen Merriman on a CR125 and some guy on a KX125, both watercooled and both the latest model on the day. Stefan won both races and the KX and I had a 2nd each. Surprisingly close over a whole lap. They jumped away at the start and out of every corner but if I drafted I could sneak past at the end of the back straight, probably due to their bit shorter gearing. From that I don't expect even a later MX85 to roll over all the current buckets. Not the point really.

I like the idea of a development class, for obvious reasons. Plenty of people simply want to go round and round, or is it just me?

[Buddha#81]

Here’s an option. I’m currently developing a $2000 KTM200 Duke for the Supersport 150 class at MCI. Started out as a crashed damaged (live plate) bike. Started at just over 20 RWHp. Power commander has it up to 22.8RWHP. Other than a toasted set of super corsa’s And a Aprilia RSV shock transformed the handling to the point it crazy fun to ride.

[speedpro]

KTM200 Duke for the Supersport 150 class

You and Richban could start your own class

[F5 Dave]

Yeah and there's bound to be lots of those cheap. [doesn't go to Tardme to check].

A 200 on a Kart track would have some exit mumbo.

How about anything LAMS approved while we are increasing the cc and missing the point of this thread?

[jasonu]

You and Richban could start your own class

and be sure it is self policing...;)

[husaberg]

Yeah and there's bound to be lots of those cheap. [doesn't go to Tardme to check].

A 200 on a Kart track would have some exit mumbo.

How about anything LAMS approved while we are increasing the cc and missing the point of this thread?

You are onto it now give everyone 750ml of ethanol and they who do the most laps without puking wins

[TZ350]

.
341760

Might be an argument against open 80cc:- https://www.motoriseven.it/seven-l6/ .... could set of the credit card wars.
.

[husaberg]

.
341760

Might be an argument against open 80cc:- https://www.motoriseven.it/seven-l6/ .... could set of the credit card wars.
.

Its a nice stacked engine config much like a NX4
341761

[F5 Dave]

So. . Why is the 50 pretty awesome, esp with only a 19mm carb, but the 125 is mx std? Yet 13000 rpm.

Anyway, pass me my, you better yet, your, credit card:bleh:

[TZ350]

.

No problem, to reign in costs, make Buckets a standard production class like Road Racing for F1 bikes is or Carts maybe, that should keep things affordable ...... :laugh:

[F5 Dave]

Or just Japanese 85cc mx bikes. That would keep it cheap.