Elections are coming up. What are we thinking?

[EmBe]

Just for fun; a little web tool that aligns your views on issue statements in key policy areas to the different political parties. Are you compatible with your preferred party ;) ?

:blah: http://www.onthefence.co.nz/about

[Brian d marge]

Just for fun; a little web tool that aligns your views on issue statements in key policy areas to the different political parties. Are you compatible with your preferred party ;) ?

:blah: http://www.onthefence.co.nz/about

1, Green
2. internet mana
3.maori

Stephen

[mashman]

Just for fun; a little web tool that aligns your views on issue statements in key policy areas to the different political parties. Are you compatible with your preferred party ;) ?

:blah: http://www.onthefence.co.nz/about

:rofl: thank god there's a computer program that will ask me questions in order to tell me what I should do. That and I'm not really into farm animals.

[Brian d marge]

I didnt see imf as an option , nor did i see Obama

[mashman]

I didnt see imf as an option , nor did i see Obama

Yeah, but that's just the asses, I could still see a donkey in there.

[Brian d marge]

Yeah, but that's just the asses, I could still see a donkey in there.

standing for a third term I see, oh well

at least we got a cycleway

Stephen

[Oscar]

Yer because they're cheap and useless ha just like mine.

So what's the point of your life?
I stopped at 3 motorcycles haha

Each motorcycle in my shed is one that these commie bastids can't get their pinko hands on...

[SPman]

1, Green
2. internet mana
3.maori

Stephen
Snap ......

[mashman]

Each motorcycle in my shed is one that these commie bastids can't get their pinko hands on...

:rofl: is that all you're scared of. Under an R.B.E. you would keep everything you currently have as there is no redistribution of anything other than human effort moving forwards. So you'll be safe as bro.

[bogan]

... and how is the money free party polling these days? Is there enough delusional plebs to put a man in a seat? (who will of course turn down the salary that comes with).

[Hinny]

so you got 9 motorcycles and no debit and you want someone to pay for your education? are you high?

fooled only time one?? yeah right
Clearly not high. He would probably talk more sense see if he was.
I suspect he has been drinking, is very tired, dehydrated or a combination thereof.

[Hinny]

standing for a third term I see, oh well

at least we got a cycleway

Stephen
Thanks to the Greens.

[mashman]

... and how is the money free party polling these days? Is there enough delusional plebs to put a man in a seat? (who will of course turn down the salary that comes with).

They received enough memberships, but the callbacks required to validate details couldn't get in touch with a hand full of people. Not sure if they then sample that across the membership... unfortunately it means that my vote won't be cast for yet another term. (I see no reason why they would.).

[Oscar]

Clearly not high. He would probably talk more sense see if he was.
I suspect he has been drinking, is very tired, dehydrated or a combination thereof.

There is no evidence here that you would know good sense if it bit you on the arse.

[Hinny]

There is no evidence here that you would know good sense if it bit you on the arse.
Drinking this early in the day?
Or have you missed taking your meds this morning?

[Oscar]

Drinking this early in the day?
Or have you missed taking your meds this morning?

No drinking. Too busy oppressing the huddled masses and conspiring with the money men.

[Oscar]

Thanks to the Greens.

Oh yeah, the Greens.
Coz they got a majority in Parliment...

[Brian d marge]

Might I bring it back on topic.

Snip.
The life, the health, the intelligence and the morals of a nation count far more than riches, and I would rather have this country free from want and squalor and unemployed than the home of multi-millionaires.

Now that was someone you would vote for .

Stephen

Worth repeating

Richard Seddon


Stephen

[yokel]

Each motorcycle in my shed is one that these commie bastids can't get their pinko hands on...

So all you have done is replaced having or how'd you like to treat your children with motorcycles?

[yokel]

Clearly not high. He would probably talk more sense see if he was.
I suspect he has been drinking, is very tired, dehydrated or a combination thereof.

Only a fool will not admit to being one

[Oscar]

So all you have done is replaced having or how'd you like to treat your children with motorcycles?

Nah. I don't yell at my motorcycles.

[yokel]

Only a fool will not admit to being one


Nah. I don't yell at my motorcycles.

But you do have someone to yell it right?

[Ocean1]

Worth repeating

Richard Seddon


Stephen

No it's not, it's a piece of blatant bullshit aimed at promoting envy and division.

If you reckon there's an inverse relationship between the quantity of millionaires in a country and the prevalence of squalor and unemployment then you're kidding yourself.

[Oscar]

But you do have someone to yell it right?

Two lads.
They don't listen.

[Oscar]

No it's not, it's a piece of blatant bullshit aimed at promoting envy and division.

If you reckon there's an inverse relationship between the quantity of millionaires in a country and the prevalence of squalor and unemployment then you're kidding yourself.

King Dick would cause these nupties to wet their breeches.
He was great supporter of the Empire.
He wanted to annex Fiji (and did grab the Cook Islands).

[Hinny]

No it's not, it's a piece of blatant bullshit aimed at promoting envy and division.

If you reckon there's an inverse relationship between the quantity of millionaires in a country and the prevalence of squalor and unemployment then you're kidding yourself.

The area of the world with the highest number of billionaires would tend to support his arguement.
The NZ experience would as well.

[Hinny]

Oh yeah, the Greens.
Coz they got a majority in Parliment...

It was a Greens bill introduced by Jonkey as a part of the agreement between the Greens and the Nats for support on votes of confidence and supply.
You don't really think Jonkey could come up with anything like that do you. Part of his working for NZ> Yeah Right.
One of only two bills he had ever introduced to the house. The other was the tax cuts.

[Ocean1]

The area of the world with the highest number of billionaires would tend to support his arguement.
The NZ experience would as well.

Codswallop.

Any country with a comparatively large number of millionaires has higher living standards and employment than one with fuck all.

[Oscar]

It was a Greens bill introduced by Jonkey as a part of the agreement between the Greens and the Nats for support on votes of confidence and supply.
You don't really think Jonkey could come up with anything like that do you. Part of his working for NZ> Yeah Right.
One of only two bills he had ever introduced to the house. The other was the tax cuts.

Wrong again.

It was proposed by Key at the 2009 Jobs Summit.

[Brian d marge]

No it's not, it's a piece of blatant bullshit aimed at promoting envy and division.

If you reckon there's an inverse relationship between the quantity of millionaires in a country and the prevalence of squalor and unemployment then you're kidding yourself.
Not even sure if you understand what you have written

Sounds good when you read it out aloud though

[buggerit]

Codswallop.

Any country with a comparatively large number of millionaires has higher living standards and employment than one with fuck all.

Would have agreed with you 20 years ago:oi-grr:

[SPman]

Codswallop.

Any country with a comparatively large number of millionaires has higher living standards and employment than one with fuck all. Like ...the USA.....with the largest collection of wealth in the fewest hands since the 1890's


.........America’s great cities, such as Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis have lost between one-fifth and one-quarter of their populations. Real median family income has been declining for years, an indication that the ladders of upward mobility that made America the “opportunity society” have been dismantled. Last April, the National Employment Law Project reported that real median household income fell 10% between 2007 and 2012.

Republicans have a tendency to blame the victims. Before one asks, “what’s the problem? America is the richest country on earth; even the American poor have TV sets, and they can buy a used car for $2,000,” consider the recently released report (http://www.globalresearch.ca/disastrous-financial-state-of-american-households-result-of-unemployment-low-wages/5395370) from the Federal Reserve that two-thirds of American households are unable to raise $400 cash without selling possessions or borrowing from family and friends.


Although you would never know it from the reports from the US financial press, the poor job prospects that Americans face now rival those of India 30 years ago. American university graduates are employed, if they are employed, not as software engineers and managers but as waitresses and bartenders. They do not make enough to have an independent existence and live at home with their parents. Half of those with student loans cannot service them. Eighteen percent are either in collection or behind in their payments. Another 34% have student loans in deferment or forbearance. Clearly, education was not the answer.


Jobs off-shoring, by lowering labor costs and increasing corporate profits, has enriched corporate executives and large shareholders, but the loss of millions of well-paying jobs has made millions of Americans downwardly mobile. In addition, jobs off-shoring has destroyed the growth in consumer demand on which the US economy depends with the result that the economy cannot create enough jobs to keep up with the growth of the labor force.


Between October 2008 and July 2014 the working age population grew by 13.4 million persons, but the US labor force grew by only 1.1 million. In other words, the unemployment rate among the increase in the working age population during the past six years is 91.8%.


Since the year 2000, the lack of jobs has caused the labor force participation rate to fall, and since quantitative easing began in 2008, the decline in the labor force participation rate has accelerated.


Clearly there is no economic recovery when participation in the labor force collapses.


Right-wing ideologues will say that the labor force participation rate is down because abundant welfare makes it possible for people not to work. This is nonsensical. During this period food stamps have twice been reduced, unemployed benefits were cut back as were a variety of social services. Being on welfare in America today is an extreme hardship. Moreover, there are no jobs going begging
.

The graph shows the collapse in the labor force participation rate. The few small peaks above the 65% participation rate line show the few periods when the economy produced enough jobs to keep up with the working age population. The massive peaks below the line indicate the periods in which the dearth of jobs resulted in Americans giving up looking for non-existent jobs and thus ceased being counted in the labor force. The 6.2% US unemployment rate is misleading as it excludes discouraged workers who have given up and left the labor force because there are no jobs to be found.
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Labor-force-part-rate-since-Jan-2000.002-690x388.png (http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Labor-force-part-rate-since-Jan-2000.002.png)
John Williams of Shadowstats.com calculates the true US unemployment rate to be 23.2%, a number consistent with the collapse of the US labor force participation rate.


In the ten years since Roberts and Schumer sounded the alarm, the US has become a country in which the norm for new jobs has become lowly paid part-time employment in domestic non-tradable services. Two-thirds of the population is living on the edge unable to raise $400 cash. The savings of the population are being drawn down to support life. Corporations are borrowing money not to invest for the future but to buy back their own stocks, thus pushing up share prices, CEO bonuses, and corporate debt. The growth in the income and wealth of the one percent comes from looting, not from productive economic activity.


This is the profile of a Third World country.

[mada]

^^^

Don't expect a proper response that refutes those stats... other than "people don't know how lucky they are" "socialists" "want to take all my property" "everyone but me = bludger"

:facepalm:

[Oscar]

^^^

Don't expect a proper response that refutes those stats... other than "people don't know how lucky they are" "socialists" "want to take all my property" "everyone but me = bludger"

:facepalm:

Glad to know that you're the classic leftwing stereotype who just knows what everyone else is thinking.
I'm surprised you didn't get Cullen's "rich prick" comments in there somewhere.

Ps. It's the US, not NZ - they are dif. countries you know...

[mada]

Glad to know that you're the classic leftwing stereotype who just knows what everyone else is thinking.
I'm surprised you didn't get Cullen's "rich prick" comments in there somewhere.

Proves my point. :woohoo:

[Oscar]

Proves my point. :woohoo:

My stereotype proves your stereotype?
You didn't actually have a point, other than to look arrogant and condescending.

Try communicating without clichés for a change.
You might actually say summat.

[mada]

My stereotype proves your stereotype?
You didn't actually have a point, other than to look arrogant and condescending.

Try communicating without clichés for a change.
You might actually say summat.

You could always prove me wrong and refute or debate the data put up.

Most of the time all I see in response to evidence being put up is just deflections and self-erections.

[Oscar]

You could always prove me wrong and refute or debate the data put up.

Most of the time all I see in response to evidence being put up is just deflections and self-erections.

Prove you wrong?
You didn't put anything up other than your silly comment on how other people would respond.

As for the figures posted by SPMan, what does this prove in a thread about the NZ elections?
How do these US figures translate to NZ?
I sthere a city in NZ that relied on car making only to have their crap products rejected by the market?

Notwithstanding that - there are comments made with absolutely no proof offered:


Although you would never know it from the reports from the US financial press, the poor job prospects that Americans face now rival those of India 30 years ago.

I'd be interested to know the source of some of these claims...

[oldrider]

Most of the time all I see in response to evidence being put up is just deflections and self-erections.

Unfortunately that is the way of the whole election and frankly I am bored with it because it is all just one big irresponsible farce! :weird:

The current mob may not be ideal but compared to "all of the rest" it would be a travesty should there be a change! IMHO. :bash:

That is the problem with this MMP lucky dip election system, it's like shooting pool with a piece of slack rope! :facepalm:

[yokel]

I don't know if I could vote for Winston Peters, there's something WONG with him? Haha

[mashman]

Glad to know that you're the classic leftwing stereotype who just knows what everyone else is thinking.

Fuck it... I'm gonna need me another ironyometer. You should be grateful that he didn't put words in your mouth also, although that seems to be the reserve of the right whinge.

[MisterD]

It was a Greens bill introduced by Jonkey as a part of the agreement between the Greens and the Nats for support on votes of confidence and supply.

There was never any confidence and supply agreement between the parties, only a Memorandum of Understanding to work together on policy, which is here:http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/National%20and%20Green%27s%20agreement.pdf

No mention of cycleways, only home insulation, energy efficiency and natural health products.

[Oscar]

Fuck it... I'm gonna need me another ironyometer. You should be grateful that he didn't put words in your mouth also, although that seems to be the reserve of the right whinge.

Another non-contribution from the peanut gallery.

[pritch]

If Mike Gaynor votes in the election as he has in the poll, he could get jail time. Politicians breech the electoral act all the time and the police are too pusillanimous to prosecute. A member of the public will not receive the same consideration, TPTB would suddenly discover their long lost integrity and bring the full weight of the law to bear on the unfortunate victim.

[Brian d marge]

Another non-contribution from the peanut gallery.
Mr teapot I would like to introduce Mr kettle

[yokel]

Mr teapot I would like to introduce Mr kettle

It's almost funny when idiots don't know they're idiots

[Brian d marge]

It's almost funny when idiots don't know they're idiots
Hey i know . . . Im married and get reminded often

[yokel]

Hey i know . . . Im married and get reminded often

It's now a sad world now where men think like woman.

Thanks a lot you PC cunts

[Oscar]

It's almost funny when idiots don't know they're idiots

Yup it's pretty funny.
You should look in a mirror...

[Oscar]

Mr teapot I would like to introduce Mr kettle

Another snappy comeback from one of the brains of the outfit.

[mada]

Yup it's pretty funny.
You should look in a mirror...

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/48051026.jpg

[Woodman]

:rofl: is that all you're scared of. Under an R.B.E. you would keep everything you currently have as there is no redistribution of anything other than human effort moving forwards. So you'll be safe as bro.

But what will the tooth fairy leave under kids pillows?

[yokel]

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/48051026.jpg

Same goes for educated idiots

[Ocean1]

If you reckon there's an inverse relationship between the quantity of millionaires in a country and the prevalence of squalor and unemployment then you're kidding yourself.


Not even sure if you understand what you have written

Sounds good when you read it out aloud though


Would have agreed with you 20 years ago:oi-grr:


Like ...the USA.....with the largest collection of wealth in the fewest hands since the 1890's


^^^

Don't expect a proper response that refutes those stats... other than "people don't know how lucky they are" "socialists" "want to take all my property" "everyone but me = bludger"

:facepalm:


You could always prove me wrong and refute or debate the data put up.

Most of the time all I see in response to evidence being put up is just deflections and self-erections.

Right. “Nations by unemployment”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

Every nation with unemployment over 20%:

Comoros, East Timor, Sudan, Serbia, Gabon, Federated States of Micronesia, Equatorial Guinea, Chad, Dominica, Nauru, Grenada, Mayotte (France), South Africa, Spain , Greece, Macedonia, Mali, Mauritania, Marshall Islands, Afghanistan, Yemen, Gaza Strip (Palestine), Kiribati, Swaziland, Kenya, Lesotho, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Nepal, Senegal, American Samoa, Namibia, Djibouti , Mozambique, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Zimbabwe.

Does that sound like a hotbed of millionaire driven depravity to you lot?

‘Cause it sounds mostly like a list of distinctly squalid places no self-respecting millionaire would be found within a thousand miles of to me.

Take bullshit like Socialist dictatorships like North Korea out of the pointy end of the unemployment stat’s and you’ve got countries like:

Guernsey (United Kingdom), Kuwait, Gibraltar (United Kingdom), Isle of Man, Singapore, Macau (China), Denmark, Liechtenstein, Brunei, Jersey (United Kingdom), Andorra, Malaysia, British Virgin Islands (United Kingdom) and Switzerland.

Mostly places you couldn’t swing a fucking cat without smacking a dozen millionaires around the head, places where the locals wouldn't know what squalor was.

Bit like you lot. Perhaps it's time you revised your world view, 'cause I'd say you've been shown to be comprehensively wrong.

[PrincessBandit]

I haven't read the whole thread but as I was going to start one on the billboard vandalism that seems rampant at the moment, I decided to post in here rather than ending up with a thread merge.

Is anyone else flabbergasted by the wanton destruction being flaunted in this election? I am not surprised that there are people out there who feel driven to deface stuff - it's only another step along the tagging continuum. But honestly - in New Zealand - this widespread immaturity????
Are we really such a nation of neaderthals?

[Ocean1]

Are we really such a nation of neaderthals?

Wonder which colour posters the neaderthals have been targeting. :rolleyes:

[Oscar]

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/48051026.jpg

So what?
I know rich people who are idiots, just as I know poor people that are nice.

However based on the assumption that, in general, it takes a few clues to make money (and/or to keep it), I'd say you will have to settle for being poor.

[yokel]

Right. “Nations by unemployment”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

Every nation with unemployment over 20%:

Comoros, East Timor, Sudan, Serbia, Gabon, Federated States of Micronesia, Equatorial Guinea, Chad, Dominica, Nauru, Grenada, Mayotte (France), South Africa, Spain , Greece, Macedonia, Mali, Mauritania, Marshall Islands, Afghanistan, Yemen, Gaza Strip (Palestine), Kiribati, Swaziland, Kenya, Lesotho, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Nepal, Senegal, American Samoa, Namibia, Djibouti , Mozambique, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Zimbabwe.

Does that sound like a hotbed of millionaire driven depravity to you lot?

‘Cause it sounds mostly like a list of distinctly squalid places no self-respecting millionaire would be found within a thousand miles to me.

Take bullshit like Socialist dictatorships like North Korea out of the pointy end of the unemployment stat’s and you’ve got countries like:

Guernsey (United Kingdom), Kuwait, Gibraltar (United Kingdom), Isle of Man, Singapore, Macau (China), Denmark, Liechtenstein, Brunei, Jersey (United Kingdom), Andorra, Malaysia, British Virgin Islands (United Kingdom) and Switzerland.

Mostly places you couldn’t swing a fucking cat without smacking a dozen millionaires around the head, places the locals wouldn't know what squalor was.

Bit like you lot. Perhaps it's time you revised your world view, 'cause it's severely lacking in factual content.

We live in a global economy based on usury so all that don't mean jack shit.

[Oscar]

We live in a global economy based on usury so all that don't mean jack shit.

A brilliantly constructed riposte.
You set out your rebuttal with persuasive prose, well thought out arguments to the contrary and supporting facts...

...no, wait a minute – you're just another KB idiot.

Have you met Mashy and his gang, you'll do fine...

[mashman]

Right. “Nations by unemployment”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

Every nation with unemployment over 20%:

Comoros, East Timor, Sudan, Serbia, Gabon, Federated States of Micronesia, Equatorial Guinea, Chad, Dominica, Nauru, Grenada, Mayotte (France), South Africa, Spain , Greece, Macedonia, Mali, Mauritania, Marshall Islands, Afghanistan, Yemen, Gaza Strip (Palestine), Kiribati, Swaziland, Kenya, Lesotho, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Nepal, Senegal, American Samoa, Namibia, Djibouti , Mozambique, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Zimbabwe.

Does that sound like a hotbed of millionaire driven depravity to you lot?

‘Cause it sounds mostly like a list of distinctly squalid places no self-respecting millionaire would be found within a thousand miles to me.

Take bullshit like Socialist dictatorships like North Korea out of the pointy end of the unemployment stat’s and you’ve got countries like:

Guernsey (United Kingdom), Kuwait, Gibraltar (United Kingdom), Isle of Man, Singapore, Macau (China), Denmark, Liechtenstein, Brunei, Jersey (United Kingdom), Andorra, Malaysia, British Virgin Islands (United Kingdom) and Switzerland.

Mostly places you couldn’t swing a fucking cat without smacking a dozen millionaires around the head, places the locals wouldn't know what squalor was.

Bit like you lot. Perhaps it's time you revised your world view, 'cause I'd say you've been shown to be comprehensively wrong.

The reason that most of those places are so fucked up is because they've been ripped apart by rich white bastards over the last century (minimum). Awesome correlation bro.

[Ocean1]

The reason that most of those places are so fucked up is because they've been ripped apart by rich white bastards over the last century (minimum). Awesome correlation bro.

Don't you get sick of being wrong so much?

The reason most of those places are so fucked up is that they aren't stable capitalist democracies.

Those same places are the only ones bucking the global trend towards higher income equity. You want to disagree with that too? Or have you had enough of being wrong for now?

Careful now, you might want to do some research.



Or not...

[oldrider]

But what will the tooth fairy leave under kids pillows? Could be a good trade in old dentures perhaps! :lol:

[Shaun Harris]

This thread has been funnier than reading some of the bull shit those side car tossers type else where

[yokel]

Don't you get sick of being wrong so much?

The reason most of those places are so fucked up is that they aren't stable capitalist democracies.

Those same places are the only ones bucking the global trend towards higher income equity. You want to disagree with that too? Or have you had enough of being wrong for now?

Careful now, you might want to do some research.



Or not...

Dont you get sick of getting sand in your vagina?

[SPman]

The media in this country are heavy on the left really....

.:laugh:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

TVNZ have a video of an effigy burning and insinuated alongside the Prime Minister that Internet MANA were involved in the burning. -
Turns out that insinuation was a total fabrication


This latest fabrication joins a long list of lies and manipulations our right wing corporate media have so far vomited up to attack the left with – they include $15,000 book that never existed, a $100,000 bottle of wine that never existed, a $150,000 donation to Labour that never existed, sexist ‘man ban’ bullshit when National’s party list is dominated by men, Nazi rally claims and now effigy burning.

Isn’t it remarkable the double standard of the NZ media? Hone Harawira gets bullet holes through his electorate office, and not a whimper from our mainstream media pundits, some chanting and a bonfire and suddenly it’s the end of western civilisation as we know it.



and this is left leaning media?


Every nation with unemployment over 20%: Add the USA to the list - the current employment rate is quoted as about 6.4% - but only because they keep jacking with how unemployment is measured to make the economy seem good. Using the method they used until the late 90's, the figure is estimated to be in the region of 24%!

[mashman]

Don't you get sick of being wrong so much?

The reason most of those places are so fucked up is that they aren't stable capitalist democracies.

Those same places are the only ones bucking the global trend towards higher income equity. You want to disagree with that too? Or have you had enough of being wrong for now?

Careful now, you might want to do some research.



Or not...

Nope.

You're denying the history that you revere so much... but I guess that's because it doesn't suit your argument.

What, you're gonna trot out some stats to back your argument up? What about the 85 richest people of the world holding as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion people? See, I can do reported stats too except mine reflect reality for 3.5 billion people.

Why? I can see the results all around me... but by all means deny the reality and roll out some more stats brother.

[mashman]

But what will the tooth fairy leave under kids pillows?

Nothing. The tooth fairy giveth etc...

[mada]

Right. �Nations by unemployment�

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

Every nation with unemployment over 20%:

Comoros, East Timor, Sudan, Serbia, Gabon, Federated States of Micronesia, Equatorial Guinea, Chad, Dominica, Nauru, Grenada, Mayotte (France), South Africa, Spain , Greece, Macedonia, Mali, Mauritania, Marshall Islands, Afghanistan, Yemen, Gaza Strip (Palestine), Kiribati, Swaziland, Kenya, Lesotho, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Nepal, Senegal, American Samoa, Namibia, Djibouti , Mozambique, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Zimbabwe.

Does that sound like a hotbed of millionaire driven depravity to you lot?

�Cause it sounds mostly like a list of distinctly squalid places no self-respecting millionaire would be found within a thousand miles of to me.

Take bullshit like Socialist dictatorships like North Korea out of the pointy end of the unemployment stat�s and you�ve got countries like:

Guernsey (United Kingdom), Kuwait, Gibraltar (United Kingdom), Isle of Man, Singapore, Macau (China), Denmark, Liechtenstein, Brunei, Jersey (United Kingdom), Andorra, Malaysia, British Virgin Islands (United Kingdom) and Switzerland.

Mostly places you couldn�t swing a fucking cat without smacking a dozen millionaires around the head, places where the locals wouldn't know what squalor was.

Bit like you lot. Perhaps it's time you revised your world view, 'cause I'd say you've been shown to be comprehensively wrong.

The majority of those "countries" have populations less than fucking Hamilton for christs sake.. :woohoo: Yes lets aspire to be like these tax havens that are major places of activity for shell companies and fronts for money laundering from the profits of organised crime.

Brunei, Kuwait, Malaysia - you fancy their type of "democracy", fuck even Singapore? Hardly comparable to NZ given it sits in major sea trade route. Switzerland and Denmark are about the only two comparable countries to NZ. But you'll ignore the latter cos it's too socialist. I'm sure we could emulate the "Swiss Miracle" by being a haven for Nazi Gold (or in the modern equivalent - Peoples Republic of China Gold) and manufacturing arms during the next major world war, but we might be waiting a fucking while. National seems pretty keen on the idea, especially old fatbag Jenny Shitley.

Which countries out perform NZ in most social and economic indicators (such as health, crime, and personal savings) the Scandinavians do... and they buck the trend on significant income equity with very low GINI co-efficients (remember that measure you quoted sometime earlier about the difference between the rich and poor). What are the co-efficients of all the countries in your list (apart from Denmark) they're all high and shit? While the Scandinavians also have relatively similar styled democracies to us and population sizes. Last time I looked those "socialist" hell holes weren't run by military juntas or along North Korean lines...

So how bad of me to think we could achieve some of the things they are achieving and try to outperform them... yeh fuck it lets settle for mediocracy and do nothing until third world countries catch up with us. :wings:

[Voltaire]

I haven't read the whole thread but as I was going to start one on the billboard vandalism that seems rampant at the moment, I decided to post in here rather than ending up with a thread merge.

Is anyone else flabbergasted by the wanton destruction being flaunted in this election? I am not surprised that there are people out there who feel driven to deface stuff - it's only another step along the tagging continuum. But honestly - in New Zealand - this widespread immaturity????
Are we really such a nation of neaderthals?


Defacing election hoardings is not new, its just the medias fascination with trivial details, like the John Key song they can't play on the radio...PC gone mad.
Easy on the Neanderthal's its just wong to be mean to them.:innocent:

[Brian d marge]

Why? I can see the results all around me... but by all means deny the reality and roll out some more stats brother.

Being from the uk and lived in the iom i can honestly say the wealth does indeed trickle down

Not

I did steal a patch of weed from
a rich fk in highgate in london does that count

Bring it on i say . . . .ill get a new tv and the right （new) will / may understand how the world really works

Could never watch a 990 burn so one may at least keep one toy


Stephen

[Hinny]

There was never any confidence and supply agreement between the parties, only a Memorandum of Understanding to work together on policy, which is here:http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/National and Green's agreement.pdf

No mention of cycleways, only home insulation, energy efficiency and natural health products.


4. New Zealand Cycleway
The Minister of Tourism, Hon John Key and Green Party spokesperson on Tourism, Sport
and Recreation, and Cycling and Active Transport, Kevin Hague, will work together on the
development, implementation and funding of the New Zealand Cycleway project. Mr. Hague
will have access to officials working on the project, including from the Ministry of Tourism,
Ministry of Social Development, Department of Conservation and other agencies as
appropriate. Joint statements will be made on progress in implementing the project.
[Added 19 May 2009]

[Hinny]

Codswallop.

Any country with a comparatively large number of millionaires has higher living standards and employment than one with fuck all.

I was thinking of Mumbai.
Highest number of Billionaires of any city in the world.

[Hinny]

The current mob may not be ideal but compared to "all of the rest" it would be a travesty should there be a change! IMHO. :bash:



Ooh I am so disappointed with that comment.
You had been on a roll prior to this. Unable to give you more rep post after post.
You seem to overlook the fact that this govt. has the worst finacial record in the history of this country.
Bill English was explaining to Parliament in I think their last session that this was because of the efforts of the previous Labour govt. and it had taken them 6 years to sort it out.
Ignoring his comment after the first two years that Cullen had done a "pretty good job".
I can't imagine anything so ridiculous as his comment that the govt. was borrowing more money than they needed because it was at such good interest rates.
Is this the reason they have been adopting all those IMF policy requirements? eg reducing Public Service, opening up conservation land for mining etc.
I wonder how much of our asset sales proceeds went to pay the interest on borrowings we didn't need.

[Ocean1]

Don't you get sick of being wrong so much?.


Nope.

I suppose it is pretty obvious now that you've pointed it out...

[Ocean1]

Add the USA to the list - the current employment rate is quoted as about 6.4% - but only because they keep jacking with how unemployment is measured to make the economy seem good. Using the method they used until the late 90's, the figure is estimated to be in the region of 24%!

Who's estimate?

[Ocean1]

The majority of those "countries" have populations less than fucking Hamilton for christs sake..


The claim was that nations with lots of millionaires had high unemployment. Picking and choosing which ones to fit that theory is simply scrambling to shore up a failed personal belief.



Which countries out perform NZ in most social and economic indicators (such as health, crime, and personal savings) the Scandinavians do... and they buck the trend on significant income equity with very low GINI co-efficients (remember that measure you quoted sometime earlier about the difference between the rich and poor). What are the co-efficients of all the countries in your list (apart from Denmark) they're all high and shit? While the Scandinavians also have relatively similar styled democracies to us and population sizes. Last time I looked those "socialist" hell holes weren't run by military juntas or along North Korean lines...

Actually no countries out perform NZ in most social indicators, we're No1.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1404/S00059/nz-ranked-worlds-most-socially-advanced-country.htm

"Key New Zealand findings:

Of the 54 indicators measured within each country to make up the overall Index ranking, New Zealand scores top spot in no less than 20, across a wide variety of different measures."

So your apparent dislike of our social policies is seen for what it is: Self serving bullshit.

[Ocean1]

I was thinking of Mumbai.
Highest number of Billionaires of any city in the world.

Yes. It seems obvious that you think of whatever supports your argument. I don't believe you can say I was quite that selective in sourcing my data. In fact it came from the very first link google threw up from "countries by unemployment".

So the fact remains, millionaires don't cause unemployment and squalor, and to believe so in the face of significant evidence to the contrary says more about those making such claims than it does about the effects millionaires have on employment.

[Hinny]

Yes. It seems obvious that you think of whatever supports your argument. I don't believe you can say I was quite that selective in sourcing my data.

The fact remains, millionaires don't cause unemployment and squalor, and to believe so in the face of significant evidence to the contrary says more about those making such claims than it does about the effects millionaires have on employment.

Rather than attack your well-documented unusual (to be generous) sense of logic I will thank you for recognising that I supply factual evidence to clearly and concisely support my propositions.

[Oscar]

I was thinking of Mumbai.
Highest number of Billionaires of any city in the world.

And....wrong again:


The Sunday Times' Rich List said there are now 72 Londoners with a net worth of £1 billion or more. It said Moscow ranks second with 48, followed by New York with 43 and then San Francisco, Los Angeles and Hong Kong.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101664459#.

[Oscar]

Rather than attack your well-documented unusual (to be generous) sense of logic I will thank you for recognising that I supply factual evidence to clearly and concisely support my propositions.

Your idea of factual evidence seems to be stuff that you pull out yer arse.

More on the number of billionaires per city.
Forbes says Moscow (which might be down to using US$ and not Stg).
It also says that Hong Kong is the Asian City with the most billionaires, which tends to support Ocean's theory.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ricardogeromel/2013/03/14/forbes-top-10-billionaire-cities-moscow-beats-new-york-again/

[oldrider]

Ooh I am so disappointed with that comment.
You had been on a roll prior to this. Unable to give you more rep post after post.
You seem to overlook the fact that this govt. has the worst finacial record in the history of this country.
Bill English was explaining to Parliament in I think their last session that this was because of the efforts of the previous Labour govt. and it had taken them 6 years to sort it out.
Ignoring his comment after the first two years that Cullen had done a "pretty good job".
I can't imagine anything so ridiculous as his comment that the govt. was borrowing more money than they needed because it was at such good interest rates.
Is this the reason they have been adopting all those IMF policy requirements? eg reducing Public Service, opening up conservation land for mining etc.
I wonder how much of our asset sales proceeds went to pay the interest on borrowings we didn't need.

Do you really think that any change will bring any "real" difference! ... They, with there lack of familiarity in power will turn to the government departments for help!

All we will get is more of the same only more heavily involving rampant civil servants FFS! .... Better another term of these pratts IMHO!

[MisterD]

[Added 19 May 2009]


After Key presented the idea at the jobs summit then?

[SPman]

Who's estimate?Paul Graig Roberts - economist and former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy and associate editor of the Wall Street Journal, John Williams, http://www.shadowstats.com/, Paul Krugman, Robert Reich, Greg Palast (former Forensic economist for the IMF), and several US inhabitants I correspond with, scattered across the country who can see what is actually going on and find it impossible to reconcile what they're told, with what they see and have to deal with........among others..

[mashman]

Paul Graig Roberts - economist and former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy and associate editor of the Wall Street Journal, John Williams, http://www.shadowstats.com/, Paul Krugman, Robert Reich, Greg Palast (former Forensic economist for the IMF), and several US inhabitants I correspond with, scattered across the country who can see what is actually going on and find it impossible to reconcile what they're told, with what they see and have to deal with........among others..

It always cracks me up how they measure the unemployment figures:

"The HLFS is a nationwide, quarterly survey and is the official measure of employment and unemployment in New Zealand. It has been providing the only comprehensive and ongoing picture of the labour force since it began in October 1985."

"HLFS data is collected from a sample survey, which is designed to represent the country as a whole. There are about 15,000 households in the sample, which corresponds to roughly 30,000 people, from both rural and urban localities. Households and household members are interviewed every three months and asked about their activities during a particular reference week. From the information provided, Statistics NZ can estimate the official unemployment rate and other labour market indicators."

So we get the official figures by extrapolating the activity of 0.01% of the work aged population... PRICELESS.

[SPman]

The Real Unemployment Rate: In 20% Of American Families, Everyone Is UnemployedAccording to shocking new numbers that were just released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/famee.pdf), 20 percent of American families do not have a single person that is working. So when someone tries to tell you that the unemployment rate in the United States is about 7 percent, you should just laugh..................

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-29/real-unemployment-rate-20-american-families-everyone-unemployed

What is the real unemployment rate in....the UK, NZ, etc. Probably higher than the official figures. Youth unemployment in NZ is already around 22% +.......and it's a similar picture overseas, with youth unemployment in places like Greece, Spain, Italy, etc, reaching as high as 75%

[Ocean1]

Paul Graig Roberts

So he's using different sources, criteria and units to the data representing the other nations in that group.

Fair enough. But questioning the veracity of data from a single nation doesn't invalidate the evidence from the full set that demonstrates the number of millionaires in a country is in fact directly related to high employment. Quite the opposite to what the original theory proposed.


The problem lies in biased and often-manipulated government reporting.

So, you have to ask: what's Mr Paul Graig Roberts' motivation for collecting and presenting data in the particular way that he has?

[oldrider]

Niki Harger (sp) ... what a fizzer ... Campbell well and truely forwarned all ready and acting coy and surprised ... gimme a break! :rolleyes:

[Brian d marge]

China has a few millionares

[Ocean1]

China has a few millionares

China has a lot of millionaires.

And fuck all unemployment.

[puddytat]

Im thinking fuck the U.S......Im fucking so over 'em meddling everywhere & they aint finished with us yet.

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/08/13/us-certification-the-ultimate-outrage-against-democracy/


meddle, meddle, meddle





As opposed to say....Nicky Hagar who deserves a medal.
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/08/13/the-nicky-hager-book-dirty-politics-how-attack-politics-is-poisoning-new-zealands-political-environment/




Nicky Hager deserves a medal.

[yokel]

China has a lot of millionaires.

And fuck all unemployment.

I dont think being unemployed would be a good option in China?

we live off the sweat of other peoples brow, it's going to catch up with us sooner or later

[Mr Revhead]

Nicky Hagar deserves a fucking bullet. And so does anyone who thinks he tells nothing but the truth.


My wish for the election is that people vote with a view to the long term good of the country. Not the short term view to what they perceived as good for them.
Obviously Labour are hoping people think only of themselves in the near future with all their vote bribing "policies"
Remember NZ, a vote for Labour is a vote for That cunliffee clown, The Maniac.com fiasco/criminal and the Green Taliban. Don't forget that the green taliban would like to do away with our motorcycles!

[puddytat]

Nicky Hagar deserves a fucking bullet. And so does anyone who thinks he tells nothing but the truth.


whale oil blah blah blay wank fest!

He has not been disproved yet & yet to lose in court.

Pistols at dawn?

[mada]

Nicky Hagar deserves a fucking bullet. And so does anyone who thinks he tells nothing but the truth.


My wish for the election is that people vote with a view to the long term good of the country. Not the short term view to what they perceived as good for them.
Obviously Labour are hoping people think only of themselves in the near future with all their vote bribing "policies"
Remember NZ, a vote for Labour is a vote for That cunliffee clown, The Maniac.com fiasco/criminal and the Green Taliban. Don't forget that the green taliban would like to do away with our motorcycles!

Woah someones angry...

Hope you don't have a firearms licence....

[avgas]

The Real Unemployment Rate: In 20% Of American Families, Everyone Is Unemployed

According to shocking new numbers that were just released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/famee.pdf), 20 percent of American families do not have a single person that is working. So when someone tries to tell you that the unemployment rate in the United States is about 7 percent, you should just laugh..................

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-29/real-unemployment-rate-20-american-families-everyone-unemployed

What is the real unemployment rate in....the UK, NZ, etc. Probably higher than the official figures. Youth unemployment in NZ is already around 22% +.......and it's a similar picture overseas, with youth unemployment in places like Greece, Spain, Italy, etc, reaching as high as 75%
Actually its worse than that in terms of what the figures don't tell you.

Most people here have been in their jobs for a long time (unlike NZ an Aus - where 2-3 years is average), thus on the flip side - getting into a new job takes a significant length of time.

When I was applying for jobs - (skilled) people I talked to hand been unemployed for years! not months but years. So of that 7% who are unemployed - their eta to finding a new job is around 1-2 years.

What this means is that if you take into consideration of the average number of people who lose their jobs and need to find new ones is closer to 20-30%. Thankfully at any point in time this figure is around 7%.
However if you took the results of people who lost their jobs since 2013 you would see a figure much closer to 20%. If you took the figure of people who looked for work since 2013 - the figure would be closer to 30-40%.

Shocking when you consider the average period in a job here is 5-10 years.

[Mr Revhead]

Woah someones angry...

Hope you don't have a firearms licence....

It's kiwibiker forum, I thought only angry posts were allowed? :angry2:

Aside from that, so far there seems to be very little hard facts in Hagars book. It's mostly based around emails between Slater and other bloggers/activists not actually part of the National party. So typical Hagar trying to expand that into some huge scandal that doesn't actually exist.


It does piss me off, because a large portion of this country is actually pretty thick and only reads sensational headlines before forming an "opinion"
Which is also why I said I'd like people to vote for the long term good of NZ rather than their own personal back pocket.

[MisterD]

He has not been disproved yet & yet to lose in court.


Yeah, Don Brash heard there was a book coming out and was gearing up for court action...then he heard it was by Hager and once he'd stoppped laughing, decided not to bother.

Seriously though, what's with all this "investigative journalist" nonsense? A real investigative journalist armed with a bunch of emails would, you know, investigate further. Maybe ask Rodney Hide for confirmation of that blackmail allegation, maybe look into Labour and Union staffers blogging under pseudonyms at the Stranded.

Nicky, presented with heaps of stolen emails, looks to see what conspiracy theories he can build and what he can make look worse by making some shit up completely out of fresh air. I'd bet plenty of actual $$ that the "evidence" he presents is doctored and some alleged emails completely fabricated by him, it's what he did with Hollow Men.

Leftwing activist and conspiracy theorist. Meh, it's probably worth a few votes *for* national and it's going to send Whaleoil's page views through the roof.

[Ocean1]

I dont think being unemployed would be a good option in China?

The general public in China don't get to be unemployed, it's simply not an option.


we live off the sweat of other peoples brow, it's going to catch up with us sooner or later

It "caught up" with us decades ago. Why do you think there are no manufacturing jobs left in NZ? How is it that your TV cost a tenth of what a locally made one would?

[Voltaire]

It's kiwibiker forum, I thought only angry posts were allowed? :angry2:

Aside from that, so far there seems to be very little hard facts in Hagars book. It's mostly based around emails between Slater and other bloggers/activists not actually part of the National party. So typical Hagar trying to expand that into some huge scandal that doesn't actually exist.


It does piss me off, because a large portion of this country is actually pretty thick and only reads sensational headlines before forming an "opinion"
Which is also why I said I'd like people to vote for the long term good of NZ rather than their own personal back pocket.

Is that why National are keeping a low election profile hoping for the other to make an error and the " Gotcha" style of media will swing it for them?
I'd say so far its a good strategy, who looks the least stupid on the news wins :yes:

[pritch]

Aside from that, so far there seems to be very little hard facts in Hagars book. It's mostly based around emails between Slater and other bloggers/activists not actually part of the National party. So typical Hagar trying to expand that into some huge scandal that doesn't actually exist.



So you have raead the book already?

[mada]

Yeah, Don Brash heard there was a book coming out and was gearing up for court action...then he heard it was by Hager and once he'd stoppped laughing, decided not to bother.

Seriously though, what's with all this "investigative journalist" nonsense? A real investigative journalist armed with a bunch of emails would, you know, investigate further. Maybe ask Rodney Hide for confirmation of that blackmail allegation, maybe look into Labour and Union staffers blogging under pseudonyms at the Stranded.

Nicky, presented with heaps of stolen emails, looks to see what conspiracy theories he can build and what he can make look worse by making some shit up completely out of fresh air. I'd bet plenty of actual $$ that the "evidence" he presents is doctored and some alleged emails completely fabricated by him, it's what he did with Hollow Men.

Leftwing activist and conspiracy theorist. Meh, it's probably worth a few votes *for* national and it's going to send Whaleoil's page views through the roof.

Yeh doesn't look like very serious stuff at all:

http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/dirty-politics-summary/


His evidence for all of this consists of a huge quantity of Slater’s Facebook messages many of which are to and from Jason Ede, the longest-serving press officer in the Prime Minister’s office. The primary allegations regarding Ede are:


He was involved in accessing the Labour Party’s computers in the lead-up to the 2011 election
He tips Slater off when an OIA is about to be released to an opposition party or media outlet, telling Slater to request the OIA, which he is then provided with before the original requestor. Slater then publishes the information on his blog with a pro-National spin
He is implicated in advising Slater to request classified SIS documents, which were then declassified and quickly released to Slater to embarrass Labour leader Phil Goff
Ede advised Slater on the wording of OIA requests to conduct a smear campaign against MFAT staff protesting Murray McCully’s restructuring of their department.


The book also documents the close friendship between Slater and Justice Minister Judith Collins, alleging:


Collins is the source of much of the material for Slater’s ‘tipline’, attacking Labour MPs and her enemies within the National Party.
When she was Minister of Corrections Collins appears to have had a prisoner transferred at Slater’s request, because a friend of Slater’s didn’t want her daughter visiting her imprisoned ex-partner and Slater arranged to have the man transferred to a more remote prison. The prisoner later attempted suicide.
Collins discusses the illegal leaking of police evidence with Slater and publication of the evidence on Slater’s blog (at the time she was Minister of Police)



One of Slater’s primary collaborators is the political strategist Simon Lusk. Allegations:


Lusk and Slater charge aspiring National politicians to help them win candidate selection in National safe-seats by running attack campaigns against their opponents. The book documents an extensive smear campaign in the Rodney electorate in 2011, in which Lusk and Slater successfully elected their client Mark Mitchell, who is now the MP for Rodney.
Lusk and Slater, and Jordan Williams routinely game the iPredict site, spending small amounts of money to move the prices around and then blogging about the movements.
Lusk was hired by Brash to help replace Rodney Hide as leader of the ACT Party. Lusk – evidently without Brash’s knowledge – found out from Jordan Williams that Rodney Hide had been sending ‘dodgy texts’ to a young woman. Slater published hints about this on his blog and Lusk proposed that they approach Hide quietly and ‘tell Hide that someone had the texts and will release them if he doesn’t resign by Friday’. Hide resigned.



Much of the material published by Slater under his name is actually written by Carrick Graham, a lobbyist for the tobacco industry. Allegations:


Graham also comments extensively on WhaleOil, using pseudonyms, often under his own posts. His pseudo-anonymous comments are incredibly racist and misogynistic.
Graham pays Slater about $6500 a month for publishing pro tobacco, pro alcohol PR, written by Graham but published under Slater’s byline.
Many of the posts are vicious attacks against academics that publish scientific research that upsets Graham’s clients.
Other noteworthy allegations:



Slater has a friend who is a former-prostitute, who asks around brothels to find out if his political enemies have been to them. Len Brown, John Boscowan, Labour MPs, the Herald’s editors and Duncan Garner are all named as people Slater has attempted to ‘dig dirt’ on in this manner to ‘apply pressure’.
Jordan Williams edits the Wikipedia pages of Labour MPs and writes smears about their sex lives
Content on David Farrar’s Kiwiblog is written by National’s communications staffers

That’s not even close to an exhaustive list. Just the things that jumped out at me.

:blink:

[MisterD]

Yeh doesn't look like very serious stuff at all


The point I was making is that this:


Slater published hints about this on his blog and Lusk proposed that they approach Hide quietly and ‘tell Hide that someone had the texts and will release them if he doesn’t resign by Friday’. Hide resigned.

Isn't investgative journalism, it's low-rent "correlation = causation" spin. A real investigative journalist would have rung Rodney Hide to confirm. Maybe Hager did, and got told "Don Brash spoke to me, and I could see the writing was on the wall and didn't want to damage the party further by making a fight of it" but he left it out because it didn't suit his angle.

[mashman]

Yeh doesn't look like very serious stuff at all:

According to t media Hager received an awful lot of evidence.

"Some weeks later, out of the blue, I received a package: an 8-gigabyte USB digital storage device, the contents of which appeared to have originated from the attack on Slater's computer," Hager says in the book.

[yokel]

The general public in China don't get to be unemployed, it's simply not an option.



It "caught up" with us decades ago. Why do you think there are no manufacturing jobs left in NZ? How is it that your TV cost a tenth of what a locally made one would?

Because of consumerism and no not caught up with us yet.
Tell my why you think the welfare system was created?

[Hinny]

So you have raead the book already?
Bwaaahahaha.

[MisterD]

"Some weeks later, out of the blue, I received a package: an 8-gigabyte USB digital storage device, the contents of which appeared to have originated from the attack on Slater's computer," Hager says in the book.

This bit confuses me, maybe one of the techy geeky types can explain - how does a DNS attack and hack on the servers that host his blog, give access to his computer / emails / facebook account?

Smells like week-old fish to me.

It's be awfully amusing to see Kim Dotcom back in prison here on hacking charges while he waits for his orange onesie and ticket to LA.

[mada]

The point I was making is that this:



Isn't investgative journalism, it's low-rent "correlation = causation" spin. A real investigative journalist would have rung Rodney Hide to confirm. Maybe Hager did, and got told "Don Brash spoke to me, and I could see the writing was on the wall and didn't want to damage the party further by making a fight of it" but he left it out because it didn't suit his angle.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. No one else in the media has been asking questions of the closeness between govt. and blogs and the lawfulness or morals of disclosing information. If he was to do what you suggested for all the points in the book it probably wouldn't be published for another 3 or 6 years which would suit the government.

Again, you shoot the messenger of the points without targeting the points.

The NZSIS and OIA stuff is the most damning. If I had leaked or directed others to Official Information under the OIA while having access to public information and employed by the taxpayers/working for govt. as a civil servant I would be serving time. But let me guess, because Helen and her govt. may have done it in the past its all good to continue with undermining transparency, democracy, and the separation of the powers of the state (legislative/executive)??????? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

[mada]

This bit confuses me, maybe one of the techy geeky types can explain - how does a DNS attack and hack on the servers that host his blog, give access to his computer / emails / facebook account?

Smells like week-old fish to me.

It's be awfully amusing to see Kim Dotcom back in prison here on hacking charges while he waits for his orange onesie and ticket to LA.

I would be happy for Krim and Key to share a cell.

Maybe start up a charity for it? I would donate $100.

[mashman]

This bit confuses me, maybe one of the techy geeky types can explain - how does a DNS attack and hack on the servers that host his blog, give access to his computer / emails / facebook account?

Smells like week-old fish to me.

It's be awfully amusing to see Kim Dotcom back in prison here on hacking charges while he waits for his orange onesie and ticket to LA.

Who knows what miracles hackers can perform. If they can hack the NSA/FBI/CIA then don't you think hacking someone's home PC is gonna be pretty easy? Why bother to question it? Unless of course you're trying to deny that what Hager has is evidence?

[Katman]

Don't forget that the green taliban would like to do away with our motorcycles!

I'm intrigued.

Got anything to back up that statement?

[Hinny]

Do you really think that any change will bring any "real" difference! ... They, with there lack of familiarity in power will turn to the government departments for help!

All we will get is more of the same only more heavily involving rampant civil servants FFS! .... Better another term of these pratts IMHO!

If we take notice of history the realisation that differing political affiliations do in fact lead to radically different outcomes.
The looting of this countries assets and the future denigration of our independence are actions that need to be resisted.
Our Nationalistic pride has been subverted and replaced by a jingoistic belief that being a part of the great US hegemony is good for NZ and we should just roll over and enjoy the shafting we are about to receive.

We have all heard of the global economic crisis of 2007, 2008.
Has anybody heard of the global economic crisis of 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014?
I would think not. This has been an NZ phenomenon created by the actions of this govt. as has been the decline in our rankings vis a vis other OECD countries.
That we are higher up in some measures may be attributed to the fact that this govt. hasn't meddled in those areas.
The 'recession' we have been sold is similar to the 'recession' we always end up with when the electorate swallows the line that a National led govt. will be good for this country.
Swallowing this line and expecting different outcomes is nuts.

[bluninja]

Who knows what miracles hackers can perform. If they can hack the NSA/FBI/CIA then don't you think hacking someone's home PC is gonna be pretty easy? Why bother to question it? Unless of course you're trying to deny that what Hager has is evidence?

Clearly Hager has what he believes is information obtained illegally that he can use for personal gain. Without the source device and some means of checking network logs, or some evidence independent of the details in the USB drive all you have is some sensational drivel. With just a command prompt and a few simple line commands one could construct an email trail that could have a conversation going between any 2 people complete with time stamps.

As for the facebook; unless the site owners verify the source, destination, and time stamps match up with the published "conversations" then who can prove if it really happened?

[MisterD]

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. No one else in the media has been asking questions of the closeness between govt. and blogs and the lawfulness or morals of disclosing information.

Have you thought a bit further about why that might be? I'd say it's because it's exactly how all political parties and all political journalist work. I wonder what all the lefties would be saying if this was Andrea Vance's emails that had been hacked and we could see who leaked that report to her...




The NZSIS and OIA stuff is the most damning.

Oh dear, and it appears to be manufactured lies.: www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/two-biggest-lies-hagers-book/

Hager is not an investigative journalist weighing evidence and seeing where it leads. He's an activist with a pre-chosen message, cludging stuff together (and I have absolutely no doubt manufacturing bits and pieces where he's missing a piece) to make it fit the way he wants.

[Oscar]

If we take notice of history the realisation that differing political affiliations do in fact lead to radically different outcomes.
The looting of this countries assets and the future denigration of our independence are actions that need to be resisted.
Our Nationalistic pride has been subverted and replaced by a jingoistic belief that being a part of the great US hegemony is good for NZ and we should just roll over and enjoy the shafting we are about to receive.

We have all heard of the global economic crisis of 2007, 2008.
Has anybody heard of the global economic crisis of 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014?
I would think not. This has been an NZ phenomenon created by the actions of this govt. as has been the decline in our rankings vis a vis other OECD countries.
That we are higher up in some measures may be attributed to the fact that this govt. hasn't meddled in those areas.
The 'recession' we have been sold is similar to the 'recession' we always end up with when the electorate swallows the line that a National led govt. will be good for this country.
Swallowing this line and expecting different outcomes is nuts.

So NZ caused a Global Economic Crisis which has been going on from 2009 to now?
That's funny I could have sworn that NZ's economy was one of the fastest growing in the OECD.
It's probably too much to expect that you would back these assertions up with some facts, isn't it?
How are you going with your "Mumbai has the most billionaires" thing"?

[mashman]

Clearly Hager has what he believes is information obtained illegally that he can use for personal gain. Without the source device and some means of checking network logs, or some evidence independent of the details in the USB drive all you have is some sensational drivel. With just a command prompt and a few simple line commands one could construct an email trail that could have a conversation going between any 2 people complete with time stamps.

As for the facebook; unless the site owners verify the source, destination, and time stamps match up with the published "conversations" then who can prove if it really happened?

All very true. In which case a denial should not only be easy, but they should also be able to shut down his book. Oddly enough, the book hasn't been shut down and you have to ask why?

I haven't read anything about the farcebook stuff, but again, if it's so easy to deny, then why hasn't there been a denial yet or better yet, why isn't Hager hugging vertical bars and singing De Camptown Ladies?

[mada]

Have you thought a bit further about why that might be? I'd say it's because it's exactly how all political parties and all political journalist work. I wonder what all the lefties would be saying if this was Andrea Vance's emails that had been hacked and we could see who leaked that report to her...




Oh dear, and it appears to be manufactured lies.: www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/two-biggest-lies-hagers-book/

Hager is not an investigative journalist weighing evidence and seeing where it leads. He's an activist with a pre-chosen message, cludging stuff together (and I have absolutely no doubt manufacturing bits and pieces where he's missing a piece) to make it fit the way he wants.

Yeh, nah I'll wait for an independent inquiry before choosing to believe whaleoil.

I'm sure if there is nothing to hide and everyone wants the truth a Commission of Inquiry into all the OIAs and info leaked from official channels will be okay.

[Mr Revhead]

Yeh doesn't look like very serious stuff at all:

http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/dirty-politics-summary/



:blink:

You are quoting the dim-post as a factual summary of a book by Hagar about political conspiracy? :nya:

:jerry:

[Mr Revhead]

Yeh, nah I'll wait for an independent inquiry before choosing to believe whaleoil.

I'm sure if there is nothing to hide and everyone wants the truth a Commission of Inquiry into all the OIAs and info leaked from official channels will be okay.

aaannnndd you then refuse to believe anything form the other side?
Your see saw won't work with that much bias

:laugh:

[mada]

You are quoting the dim-post as a factual summary of a book by Hagar about political conspiracy? :nya:

:jerry:

These are allegations.

I haven't said they are facts. Read above post where I say an independent Commission of Inquiry is best avenue for the truth. :face palm::facepalm:

[Mr Revhead]

All very true. In which case a denial should not only be easy, but they should also be able to shut down his book. Oddly enough, the book hasn't been shut down and you have to ask why?

I haven't read anything about the farcebook stuff, but again, if it's so easy to deny, then why hasn't there been a denial yet or better yet, why isn't Hager hugging vertical bars and singing De Camptown Ladies?

What planet are you on?
There has been denials.
Legal stuff doesn't happen instantly, lawyers need to time.

[mada]

aaannnndd you then refuse to believe anything form the other side?
Your see saw won't work with that much bias

:laugh:

:yawn: Clearly you have no bias. Which is why you would probably oppose an independent inquiry.... :whistle: and called for bullets to be put in peoples heads ya FUCKING FASCIST. :motu:

[Mr Revhead]

:facepalm: all you want, you're the one believing dim post and Hagar :facepalm::facepalm:


As pointed out by many, there is as yet 0 evidence. Most of the stuff in the book is apparently not actually direct coms with Slater and National, it's other bloggers.

Think about it, he as said they were acquired in an illegal way. So he's set himself up. Why?
Because it's false and therefore he acquired nothing illegal so it will be very hard to take legal action. Sure he may get a slander case or two. But no jail time for illegal activities.

But here is the key: He is counting on the average NZer just skim reading sensationalist head lines and not actually reading and thinking about the facts.
THAT right there is his goal, his object and his backers/financers goal.

He's counting on the technique of throwing a whole pile of mud, (all of it so far unverifiable) and hoping some sticks, or creating the illusion that some has stuck.
Distracting from the real issue's of how the country is actually being run.


Simple really. And simple falls for simple.

[Mr Revhead]

:yawn: Clearly you have no bias. Which is why you would probably oppose an independent inquiry.... :whistle: and called for bullets to be put in peoples heads ya FUCKING FASCIST. :motu:

I prefer the term realist. But whatever floats your boat, I shall refer to you as a Tinfoil Hatter of the Loony persuasion :D

Oh btw, there is this thing called "a figure of speech"

[mashman]

What planet are you on?
There has been denials.
Legal stuff doesn't happen instantly, lawyers need to time.

I'm from planet, I could give a fuck coz it's nothing more than shitslinging. Better that than a myopic fucktard.
What you call a denial and what I call a denial are obviously two entirely different things.
bwaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa. Of course they do, that's why we can't bang through emergency legislation as and when they feel... oh, wait on.

[mada]

:facepalm: all you want, you're the one believing dim post and Hagar :facepalm::facepalm:


As pointed out by many, there is as yet 0 evidence. Most of the stuff in the book is apparently not actually direct coms with Slater and National, it's other bloggers.

Think about it, he as said they were acquired in an illegal way. So he's set himself up. Why?
Because it's false and therefore he acquired nothing illegal so it will be very hard to take legal action. Sure he may get a slander case or two. But no jail time for illegal activities.

But here is the key: He is counting on the average NZer just skim reading sensationalist head lines and not actually reading and thinking about the facts.
THAT right there is his goal, his object and his backers/financers goal.

He's counting on the technique of throwing a whole pile of mud, (all of it so far unverifiable) and hoping some sticks, or creating the illusion that some has stuck.
Distracting from the real issue's of how the country is actually being run.


Simple really. And simple falls for simple.

Ah so you've read the book?

[Katman]

It does piss me off, because a large portion of this country is actually pretty thick....


Don't be so hard on yourself.

[puddytat]

:facepalm: all you want, you're the one believing dim post and Hagar :facepalm::facepalm:

.

As opposed to you believing the Herald & whaleoil?

Typical kneejerk right wing wank fest reaction to yet ANOTHER dodgey rightwing fuckup.

[puddytat]

:
Think about it, he as said they were acquired in an illegal way.
.

As opposed to illegally spying on NZers by the Govt.

I bet your upper middle class ....

[Mr Revhead]

As opposed to you believing the Herald & whaleoil?

Typical kneejerk right wing wank fest reaction to yet ANOTHER dodgey rightwing fuckup.

Typical kneejerk response to reason and responsible thinking by someone who wants the book to be true.
You are prepared to unquestioningly believe a known false source?

Think:
Who is saying these things?
It's one month from an election.

Those two things alone raise questions about the motivation and truthfulness.

Add those two together and think about it.


And since when is refusal to blindly believe one person automatically meant you believed another 100%?
Lots of looooooong bows being drawn lately isn't there!

[Mr Revhead]

As opposed to illegally spying on NZers by the Govt.

I bet your upper middle class ....

Please detail the illegal spying? News to me!
Are you trying to say you are jealous of me because you perceive me to be richer than you? That's hilarious!!

My missus says I'm classless :p

[mada]

As opposed to you believing the Herald & whaleoil?

Typical kneejerk right wing wank fest reaction to yet ANOTHER dodgey rightwing fuckup.

He was so upset and angry that he wanted bullets put in peoples head. What type of nut job takes political shit like this so personally? :blink:

What this man needs clearly is a box of tissues to wipe away all those tears from the torment of having someone criticise his idols, then he can use the leftovers to clean up the sloppy mess from wanking :tugger:over his idols responses.

[mada]

Typical kneejerk response to reason and responsible thinking by someone who wants the book to be true.
You are prepared to unquestioningly believe a known false source?

Think:
Who is saying these things?
It's one month from an election.

Those two things alone raise questions about the motivation and truthfulness.

Add those two together and think about it.


And since when is refusal to blindly believe one person automatically meant you believed another 100%?
Lots of looooooong bows being drawn lately isn't there!

Here mate... the complete 110% unbiased truth. Released not to coincide with the election.

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/full/328169769.jpg

http://www.trademe.co.nz/books/nonfiction/new-zealand/auction-766463525.htm

Get in quick, looks like theres only a couple of hundred thousand copies left. I hear it fetches a fortune as good quality toilet paper for upcoming zombie apocalypse

[oldrider]

Hagar has created a rice bowl for himself and he trades on election season to enact it ... it will pass and faid away like all his other ones! :zzzz:

[puddytat]

Typical kneejerk response to reason and responsible thinking by someone who wants the book to be true.
You are prepared to unquestioningly believe a known false source?

Think:
Who is saying these things?
It's one month from an election.

. !

As opposed to the shoe being on the other foot & Slater released something similar to thwart a lefty Govt?:facepalm:

No doubt he'll seek an injunction & demand Hagar reveals his source, whereas when he was in the shit a while back he used the Court to protect his own.

[bogan]

Have we started discussing the pros and cons of various party's economic strategies yet? Or is it still all who looks best in a whale skin suit?

This is what is wrong with NZ politics, you fuckers claim its all the politicians fault for being cunts, yet that is what you focus on leading up to the election; no fucking wonder it is a self fulfilling prophecy then is it :whistle:

[Mr Revhead]

Have we started discussing the pros and cons of various party's economic strategies yet? Or is it still all who looks best in a whale skin suit?

This is what is wrong with NZ politics, you fuckers claim its all the politicians fault for being cunts, yet that is what you focus on leading up to the election; no fucking wonder it is a self fulfilling prophecy then is it :whistle:

This man has a point!!

[Woodman]

Hagar has created a rice bowl for himself and he trades on election season to enact it ... it will pass and faid away like all his other ones! :zzzz:

Yes, come Christmas time, National will have the most seats in the House, JK will be Prime Minister, Conspiracy theorists will still be conspiracy theorists (bless them) and Nicky Hagars book will be on a clearance special at Whitcoulls.

Life will be good.

[mashman]

This man has a point!!

He does. It protrudes from the top of his head and is more commonly referred to as a penis.

[pritch]

I can't comment on the book specifically as I haven't read it. I did however read the Whaleoil blog for a couple of years or so. Being very familiar with the blog some of the reported claims in the book make sense. When reading the blog some of the items produced a "WTF?" reaction, particularly those regarding health matters. The contention that Slater didn't write them and was paid to publish them makes perfect sense now.

At the time Slater was very fond of mentioning his close contacts within the National party, his father is a former National Party office holder. Those contacts will probably be a little less keen on the association currently. At least until after the election. :whistle:

Some of the causes that Slater chose to push were not at all unworthy, f'rinstance his campagn against excessive use of name suppression by the courts.

Still, the new book will keep the talkback lines busy. Thank God for the Internet.

[oldrider]

If we take notice of history the realisation that differing political affiliations do in fact lead to radically different outcomes.
The looting of this countries assets and the future denigration of our independence are actions that need to be resisted.
Our Nationalistic pride has been subverted and replaced by a jingoistic belief that being a part of the great US hegemony is good for NZ and we should just roll over and enjoy the shafting we are about to receive.

We have all heard of the global economic crisis of 2007, 2008.
Has anybody heard of the global economic crisis of 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014?
I would think not. This has been an NZ phenomenon created by the actions of this govt. as has been the decline in our rankings vis a vis other OECD countries.
That we are higher up in some measures may be attributed to the fact that this govt. hasn't meddled in those areas.
The 'recession' we have been sold is similar to the 'recession' we always end up with when the electorate swallows the line that a National led govt. will be good for this country.
Swallowing this line and expecting different outcomes is nuts.


OK, interesting opinions but (put simplistically) what I base most of mine on is "the purchasing power of our dollars" almost all of which are now discretionary.

When I retired in 1999 I had everything sorted out to (give or take) see us through to the end, based on living to 100! ... God forbid!

The value of and the purchasing power of our "nest egg" (for the want of description) has been more savagely eroded under Clark's Labour lead coalitions!

We now have almost no way left to us of making required adjustments to cover the erosion of our discretionary $$'s !

The only way for us is to "hope" that a left wing (envy based) government is denied office!

Of those that are in the offering at this election it is our opinion (selfishly if you like) that there be no change at least for the next term!

Every political party (except Democrats for Social Credit) pledge to continue with the same current flawed monetary policies so there is only more of the same on offer!

And you expect something "different" to come from that? :weird:

[MisterD]

I can't comment on the book specifically as I haven't read it. I did however read the Whaleoil blog for a couple of years or so. Being very familiar with the blog some of the reported claims in the book make sense. When reading the blog some of the items produced a "WTF?" reaction, particularly those regarding health matters. The contention that Slater didn't write them and was paid to publish them makes perfect sense now.

Yeah, nah. If he didn't write the posts under his name, then someone's pretty good a copying his style. Same goes for the allegation that David Farrar doesn't write all the stuff on "the other KB".

There's been a pretty marked change in the overall tone since he blogged on his issues with depression and getting off the meds he was on. The outright nasty stuff isn't there anymore and whatever your thoughts about Slater as a person, you can't really deny that he really understands politics and offers insights that nobody else seems able to.



his father is a former National Party office holder.

His dad was the man that recruited John Key to stand for parliament.

Anyhoo, some clear thinking, clearly articulated, by Mr Peter Cresswell: http://pc.blogspot.co.nz/2014/08/hager-rhymes-with-macabre.html

[oldrider]

Anyhoo, some clear thinking, clearly articulated, by Mr Peter Cresswell: http://pc.blogspot.co.nz/2014/08/hager-rhymes-with-macabre.html

Unfortunately Cresswell and company fell off the political wagon and disappeared into the ethos!

They appeared clear thinking indeed but still backing the same flawed money system, so inevitably they were doomed to fail anyway! :corn:

[MisterD]

Unfortunately Cresswell and company fell off the political wagon and disappeared into the ethos!

They appeared clear thinking indeed but still backing the same flawed money system, so inevitably they were doomed to fail anyway! :corn:

Ether, oldrider, ether.



Ether

Physics - a hypothetical substance supposed to occupy all space, postulated to account for the propagation of electromagnetic radiation through space.

[pritch]

Yeah, nah. If he didn't write the posts under his name, then someone's pretty good a copying his style. .

you can't really deny that he really understands politics and offers insights that nobody else seems able to.



There's a small team writing that blog even before the possibility that he published lobbyist's material under his own name. So the "style" is variable anyway.

He should have "insights" ffs, the PM and others ring him for a chat. He once claimed politics was his game. I disagree - he's a wannabe, albeit a well connected wannabe, and he'll stay a wannabe until he stands for an electorate seat.

[SPman]

Please detail the illegal spying? News to me



.......Subsequent investigation of the illegal spying on Kim Dotcom uncovered the fact that the GCSB in particular regularly and knowingly had broken the law on numerous other occassions, illegally spying on at least 88 New Zealanders, when their founding charter expressly forbid such spying.


Jog your memory?

[mada]

I feel real bad labelling many right wingers as compassionless heartless bastards who only give a rats arse about themselves.. especially after reading this:

Cameron Slater talking about Christchurch - all of us (!!!pp26 - 27 )


" the place is fucked.. They should just board it up and close it down "
His mate Peter Smith replied " A real tragedy, but it will fuck Labour for the election "
Slater : yep . Blessings
Peter Smith " what I can't believed is how we have to bail out these useless pricks on the South Island again . I said to someone today National should let them rot , after all they are useless scum Labour voters especially in areas where the earthquake hit - well hopefully more scum Labour voters will piss off to Australia - at least the fucking uninsured get nothing "
Slater replies : those suburbs are hard core Labpur - the owners will be Nat voters though and the voters tenants , so the houses are gone and the scum are gone too and so they should get nothing "

:blink::blink:

As Mr Revhead said, Hager needs a bullet eh...:blink:

[mashman]

I feel real bad labelling many right wingers as compassionless heartless bastards who only give a rats arse about themselves.. especially after reading this:

Cameron Slater talking about Christchurch - all of us (!!!pp26 - 27 )



:blink::blink:

As Mr Revhead said, Hager needs a bullet eh...:blink:

Nah, that'll be a lie... no one is THAT much of a cunt.

[carbonhed]

Seven Sharp interview with Hager.

Hager v Joyce (http://tvnz.co.nz/seven-sharp/hager-and-joyce-head-video-6057485)

[Katman]

I take great pleasure from the fact that I support the party who would rank by far the least guilty in the 'dirty politics' stakes.

[yokel]

"the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result"

all you people that vote are by definition insane,

the problem goes from the left (envy) to the right(greed) and back again and is fucking endless

[Robert Taylor]

You CAN have right wing views and a social conscience. As for that weasel Nicky Hager its nothing that a vile of cyanide wouldn't fix.

[Robert Taylor]

I take great pleasure from the fact that I support the party who would rank by far the least guilty in the 'dirty politics' stakes.

One day you will live to regret that statement

[Robert Taylor]

.......Subsequent investigation of the illegal spying on Kim Dotcom uncovered the fact that the GCSB in particular regularly and knowingly had broken the law on numerous other occassions, illegally spying on at least 88 New Zealanders, when their founding charter expressly forbid such spying.


Jog your memory?


The sooner Hermann Gering mark 2 falls into the hands of the Americans the better.

[yokel]

You CAN have right wing views and a social conscience. As for that weasel Nicky Hager its nothing that a vile of cyanide wouldn't fix.

yes you can but not enough people do.

Winston Churchill - "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

not that we live in a democracy haha

[Brian d marge]

The problem is the american imf
Doesnt matter who you vote for
Just try one who dosnt sell all the furniture and keep the debt down

A magician

[Berries]

The problem is the american imf
You're unbelievable.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/waacof2saZw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Brian d marge]

You're unbelievable.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/waacof2saZw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Thank you

I assume you disagree

[Hinny]

So NZ caused a Global Economic Crisis which has been going on from 2009 to now?
That's funny I could have sworn that NZ's economy was one of the fastest growing in the OECD.
It's probably too much to expect that you would back these assertions up with some facts, isn't it?
How are you going with your "Mumbai has the most billionaires" thing"?

Not that I would stoop to calling you a retarded myopic fucktard I can imagine others might.
Your opening line was indeed a strange interpretation of my post, and you have an equally strange interpretation of the current state of this economy. You are making out like it is doing well! It's probably too much to expect that you would back these assertions up with some facts, isn't it? If the economy was doing well I would anticipate the Minister of Finance crowing about his success, not trying to blame the previous govt. for the parlous state of the economy. It has been stated that this govt. has the worst financial record in our history and this guy is blaming the previous govt.

As for your 'proof' that London has the most Billionaires did you bother to read the article you quoted?
Only 1 of the top ten Billionaires on their list was from Britain. The other 9 were from India and Russia. My source was Piers Morgan and so we have proof coming from the equivalent of the Truth and The Herald. ie not that reliable. Sure those guys may have homes in London but that is like Australians 'pinching' our artists and calling them their own or NZ 'pinching' Islanders for the All Blacks and calling them Kiwis.
The number of Billionaires in London doesn't advance your theories much either considering the state of the British economy. Debt of 400% of GDP - It's FUCKED. No wonder they have to join with the US to go and pinch the resources of other countries. As what has been labelled as the most Fascist country in the world they are arguably a prime example of the failure of the very system you are trying to promote as the ideal.
The US with a debt of 230% of GDP has a get out of jail card in the petro dollar. Hence the need to get rid of Saddam Hussein and Muamar Qaddafi. Each of them wanting to get away from oil sales in dollars one could argue would have led to US financial collapse.
Again it is a prime example of the failure of the capitalist system. When one realises that the capital in the US economy is a lot like monopoly money then the point becomes more relevant. These 'banksters' merely print money . Who they are is unknown. Never audited by the US govt. A seemingly bizarre situation.

[Hinny]

My missus says I'm classless :p

You know what, without equivocation, I can believe that.
She is obviously a perceptive woman.

[Hinny]

OK, interesting opinions but (put simplistically) what I base most of mine on is "the purchasing power of our dollars" almost all of which are now discretionary.

When I retired in 1999 I had everything sorted out to (give or take) see us through to the end, based on living to 100! ... God forbid!

The value of and the purchasing power of our "nest egg" (for the want of description) has been more savagely eroded under Clark's Labour lead coalitions!

We now have almost no way left to us of making required adjustments to cover the erosion of our discretionary $$'s !

The only way for us is to "hope" that a left wing (envy based) government is denied office!

Of those that are in the offering at this election it is our opinion (selfishly if you like) that there be no change at least for the next term!

Every political party (except Democrats for Social Credit) pledge to continue with the same current flawed monetary policies so there is only more of the same on offer!

And you expect something "different" to come from that? :weird:

Your loss of nest egg buying power is unfortunately a byproduct of the economy performing as the popular misconception of success regards as good. The measure of success and focus is on growth in the economy. Perpetuation of a financial Ponzi scheme. This is clearly a simplistic measure and does not reflect well-offness.
Your labeling of a left wing govt. as 'envy based' seems bizarre to me. Every Labour govt. that has been in office in this country has turned the economy around from the recessions Nat govts. have put us in. The growth in the economy during Helen's years led to the erosion of your nest egg's buying power. It also led to the building of mansions all around the country.
Travelling through NZ one can identify architecture with govts. Architects generally love Labour govts. Lots of work.
During Helen's years we were importing architects flat out.
Low cost, Group housing tends to be associated with Nat govts.

As I stated before the election of this current mob the smart money appeared to be on a change of govt. with a lot of the Whitford mansions on the market - I suggested they were cashing up in preparation for a downturn in the economy if a Nat. govt. was elected. My assessment appears to have been on the money.
So, we weathered the financial storm that was the GEC, along with Australia, better than all the other OECD countries.
$10 Bn debt with $10Bn in reserves - so effectively zero debt.
Now after 6 years, of good times, we have flogged off the best of the family silver (what little we got for it stuck into a slush fund) and have a reported debt of $75 Bn.
The worst financial record of any govt. in our history.
No wonder Bill English was clutching at straws trying to explain his govts. failure.

I can see your perspective tho'. As long as the economy is depressed then generally we have low inflation - unless we experience the Muldoon govt. version and have Stagflation.

[Berries]

I assume you disagree
Oh, IMF. My mistake.

As you were.

[carbonhed]

Now after 6 years, of good times.

Ladies and Gentleman we stand in the presence of genius :clap:

[Katman]

One day you will live to regret that statement

I don't think I will Robert.

I look forward to one day seeing a government that places other values higher than power and money.

Power and money go hand in hand with corruption.

[yokel]

I don't think I will Robert.

I look forward to one day seeing a government that places other values higher than power and money.

Power and money go hand in hand with corruption.

The government is course of the problem and is not goin to fix the problem.

But if you want to sit on your arse and let big dady government sort our shit out then go right ahead and vote for the arse kisser who tells you what you want to hear.

[Katman]

The government is course of the problem and is not goin to fix the problem.

But if you want to sit on your arse and let big dady government sort our shit out then go right ahead and vote for the arse kisser who tells you what you want to hear.

Bit early to be on the piss, isn't it?

[yokel]

Bit early to be on the piss, isn't it?

So you think power and money corrupts and the solution is to vote someone in to a position with power and a whole lot of money to play with? And you think I'm on the piss? well I can see why you'd think that haha.

Where do you think the government gets it power from?

[pritch]

I used to be a regular (more like religious) reader of the blog Whale Oil Beef Hooked. Last night on a whim I purchased the Kindle version of "Dirty Politics" from Amazon. Currently I'm about half way through, and the period covered is the same period I was reading the blog and I can recall many of the blog entries referred to in the book. The overwhelming impression I have is the book rings true. It is no surprise to me that Slater was less than honest, but the sheer amount of deception is truly amazing.

The National Party are busy denying the accuracy of the book but the dirty works were not only employed against oposition parties but against Government MPs that Slater and his friends didn't like. There is a really interesting account of how Slater and an accomplice rigged the candidate selection process in a National seat. Basically Slater's motivation in this instance appears to be monetary. According to the book (and his emails) he gets $80,000 a year to let the tobacco lobby post entries in his blog. Nice work if you can get it.

Meanwhile I have a couple of bikes to ride including the new Valkyrie, see ya.

[oldrider]

Speaks more about the readers than the blogger ..... it's like KB, if nobody reads it the blog is dead! :sleep:

[Mr Revhead]

.......Subsequent investigation of the illegal spying on Kim Dotcom uncovered the fact that the GCSB in particular regularly and knowingly had broken the law on numerous other occassions, illegally spying on at least 88 New Zealanders, when their founding charter expressly forbid such spying.


Jog your memory?

Yeah I thought you were talking about that. Now, how is your memory?
Why were the GCSB doing it?
How was it illegal?

They were doing at the request of the police who were acting under court issued warrants to gather evidence on people strongly suspected to be involved in illegal activities.

Why was it illegal? A technicality. They thought they were allowed to assist the police under warrant. Turns out they were wrong and changes have been made.

It was not unsupervised mass surveillance for dodgy reasons as you are trying to imply. It was not the GCSB abusing it's power and peaking at peoples nude pxts. It was not some GSCB guy checking on his ex's gf or anything like that at all.

So, your comment is pretty wide of the mark.

Question: Do you sleep in your tinfoil hat?

[Mr Revhead]

blah blah drivel drivel drivel blah blah

Bloody hell man, do you read what you write?!
What is your motivation? I seriously hope you don't believe all you write. :weird:

[Banditbandit]

Yeah I thought you were talking about that. Now, how is your memory?
Why were the GCSB doing it?
How was it illegal?

They were doing at the request of the police who were acting under court issued warrants to gather evidence on people strongly suspected to be involved in illegal activities.

Why was it illegal? A technicality. They thought they were allowed to assist the police under warrant. Turns out they were wrong and changes have been made.

It was not unsupervised mass surveillance for dodgy reasons as you are trying to imply. It was not the GCSB abusing it's power and peaking at peoples nude pxts. It was not some GSCB guy checking on his ex's gf or anything like that at all.

So, your comment is pretty wide of the mark.

Question: Do you sleep in your tinfoil hat?

Naaa .. an agency set up to uphold the law MUST also follow the law - technicality or not. No-one and no organisation is above the laws ...

When was the last time you got off a traffic ticket by convincing a cop it was a "technicality"?

[Mr Revhead]

I see you chose to ignore the point of my post.
I will address you again when you address the point

[Hinny]

Bloody hell man, do you read what you write?!
What is your motivation? I seriously hope you don't believe all you write. :weird:

Ahh! - Classless and clueless.

[Hinny]

Ladies and Gentleman we stand in the presence of genius :clap:

Well thankyou.
The best balance of payments in 37 years could be regarded as being indicative of good times. Could also, I guess, be indicative of the poverty in this country with lower discretionary spending available to the average punter resulting in lower import payments.
One can be assured that the cost of imported oil will not be cheaper because we supported the invasion of Iraq nor the terrorists in Libya.

[Oscar]

Not that I would stoop to calling you a retarded myopic fucktard I can imagine others might.
Your opening line was indeed a strange interpretation of my post, and you have an equally strange interpretation of the current state of this economy. You are making out like it is doing well! It's probably too much to expect that you would back these assertions up with some facts, isn't it? If the economy was doing well I would anticipate the Minister of Finance crowing about his success, not trying to blame the previous govt. for the parlous state of the economy. It has been stated that this govt. has the worst financial record in our history and this guy is blaming the previous govt.

As for your 'proof' that London has the most Billionaires did you bother to read the article you quoted?
Only 1 of the top ten Billionaires on their list was from Britain. The other 9 were from India and Russia. My source was Piers Morgan and so we have proof coming from the equivalent of the Truth and The Herald. ie not that reliable. Sure those guys may have homes in London but that is like Australians 'pinching' our artists and calling them their own or NZ 'pinching' Islanders for the All Blacks and calling them Kiwis.
The number of Billionaires in London doesn't advance your theories much either considering the state of the British economy. Debt of 400% of GDP - It's FUCKED. No wonder they have to join with the US to go and pinch the resources of other countries. As what has been labelled as the most Fascist country in the world they are arguably a prime example of the failure of the very system you are trying to promote as the ideal.
The US with a debt of 230% of GDP has a get out of jail card in the petro dollar. Hence the need to get rid of Saddam Hussein and Muamar Qaddafi. Each of them wanting to get away from oil sales in dollars one could argue would have led to US financial collapse.
Again it is a prime example of the failure of the capitalist system. When one realises that the capital in the US economy is a lot like monopoly money then the point becomes more relevant. These 'banksters' merely print money . Who they are is unknown. Never audited by the US govt. A seemingly bizarre situation.

That is the longest admission of being wrong I have ever seen.
You said Mumbai has the highest number of billionaires - just the latest unsupported and incorrect statement from you and your hysterical lefty cohort.

And speaking of incorrect - the ratio of debt to GDP in the UK is about 90%.
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt
And the US ratio is somewhere between 70 and 100%% depending on how it's calcualted.


Are you a liar or stupid or both?

[Oscar]

Bloody hell man, do you read what you write?!
What is your motivation? I seriously hope you don't believe all you write. :weird:

He pulls most of his "facts" outta his arse.

[yokel]

The level of insanity in this thread would be fucking hilarious if you cunts weren't the voting public.
All hope for humanity is lost

[unstuck]

The level of insanity in this thread would be fucking hilarious if you cunts weren't the voting public.
All hope for humanity is lost

Agree with the first part of your statement at least.:2thumbsup

[yokel]

Agree with the first part of your statement at least.:2thumbsup

That last bit was just for dramatic impact ha

[mashman]

The level of insanity in this thread would be fucking hilarious if you cunts weren't the voting public.
All hope for humanity is lost

Fortunately the majority of the voting public have a conscience and when offered an alternative that'll level the playing field, they're going to desert the current party's in droves. Can't wait.

[pritch]

The level of insanity in this thread would be fucking hilarious if you cunts weren't the voting public.


Who are you calling voting public?

[Banditbandit]

I see you chose to ignore the point of my post.
I will address you again when you address the point

So, your point was not clear then. Are you able to make your point clearly so I can address it?

[yokel]

Who are you calling voting public?

The lemmings that line up to put a piece of paper in a box

[Swoop]

My source was Piers Morgan...
Good.
Fucking.
Greif.

Nobody with any credibility can use morgan as a reference.

[Laava]

Fortunately the majority of the voting public have a conscience and when offered an alternative that'll level the playing field, they're going to desert the current party's in droves. Can't wait.

You're going to have to wait. There is no signs of anything better than the encumbents on the horizon.

[Swoop]

You're going to have to wait. There is no signs of anything better than the encumbents on the horizon.

The "alternative" really sounds like the start of a bad joke.

Cunliffe, Hone, "hardly" Norman and Winston Peters walk into a bar wanting a jug of I.Q. to share...:facepalm::laugh:

[mashman]

You're going to have to wait. There is no signs of anything better than the encumbents on the horizon.

Fair enough. But they're growing in numbers in Nelson because there is a candidate. If this kicks off in other parts of the country, well, we could end up with an early election. Dreams are free, but it is most definitely a possibility. Your choice man ;).

[oldrider]

Good.
Fucking.
Greif.

Nobody with any credibility can use morgan as a reference.

Not even Piers Morgan ... he is the consummate plonker! :laugh:

[Laava]

Fair enough. But they're growing in numbers in Nelson because there is a candidate. If this kicks off in other parts of the country, well, we could end up with an early election. Dreams are free, but it is most definitely a possibility. Your choice man ;).

Who do you mean?

[bogan]

Who do you mean?

Money free party I would think, failed to get enough backers to even get on the ballot this time around; so I'm glad to see democracy still works at least at some level.

[Laava]

Money free party I would think, failed to get enough backers to even get on the ballot this time around; so I'm glad to see democracy still works at least at some level.

Right, I googled it and yes they are not yet a registered party.
Here is a situation where I can't see it working. Maybe someone can explain. If I have a property with tenants in it who are paying me rent, and then all of a sudden we become a moneyless society, what do the tenants give me in the way of rent/koha? Or do they just assume ownership of the property?
If I am the tenant and now no longer have money to give my landlord in the way of rent, what is the equivalent tokens or credit that will be paid on a periodic basis? Or is it nothing?
Is anyone able to answer that simply without just posting links?

[mashman]

Money free party I would think, failed to get enough backers to even get on the ballot this time around; so I'm glad to see democracy still works at least at some level.


Who do you mean?

As ee said above. I reckon they have done a great job so far given that they only really started this year. They managed to get the numbers, but according to the internetz, they didn't meet the compliance when the electoral commission followed up. Not by much though. Even better when you look at it in the same light as United Future. And yes, it is good to see that that part of democracy is functioning well.

[mashman]

Right, I googled it and yes they are not yet a registered party.
Here is a situation where I can't see it working. Maybe someone can explain. If I have a property with tenants in it who are paying me rent, and then all of a sudden we become a moneyless society, what do the tenants give me in the way of rent/koha? Or do they just assume ownership of the property?
If I am the tenant and now no longer have money to give my landlord in the way of rent, what is the equivalent tokens or credit that will be paid on a periodic basis? Or is it nothing?

Does that really matter? How are you going to be disadvantaged?

[Laava]

Does that really matter? How are you going to be disadvantaged?

Is not about me. And of course it matters, how else are they going to get any votes?

[bogan]

Here is a situation where I can't see it working.

And that is hardly the only one, I think the incumbents have a lot more to fear from that fat german bloke and his racist mate...

[mashman]

Here's one candidate (http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/kapiti-observer/10356757/Money-system-in-candidates-sights)... not sure if she's aligned with an R.B.E. though.

Here are 2 MFP candidates (http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/10353772/Money-Free-Party-looks-likely-to-fall-short). One in Nelson and one in Kaikoura. I've been following blog of the Kaikoura fulla (http://tedhowardnz.wordpress.com/), Ted, for almost a year now. The guy has been through a lot and by all accounts is a very successful man.

I have no doubt that there will be more and more people standing around the country over the next few years. Honest politicians, because they're not out to shaft anyone.

[Laava]

Does that really matter? How are you going to be disadvantaged?

Further to that tho, I am not talking about being disadvantaged. If I am to vote for it, how is it going to work to my advantage.

[mashman]

Is not about me. And of course it matters, how else are they going to get any votes?

Sounded like it "what do the tenants give me in the way of rent/koha?". Does it really matter what happens so long as you don't lose anything?

[mashman]

Further to that tho, I am not talking about being disadvantaged. If I am to vote for it, how is it going to work to my advantage.

That will be entirely up to you. I'm not being obtuse, everything, including work, is voluntary. Cooperate and it'll all work swimmingly.

[Laava]

And that is hardly the only one, I think the incumbents have a lot more to fear from that fat german bloke and his racist mate...

Yeah, well, one thing at a time. The cashless society is how society started out and then currency in all it's forms must have evolved into the present day system over many thousands of years. I cannot see in my head a way that getting rid of currency in all it's forms will work. The fat german and his mate are just billboard faces and will never be anything more than that. They could not possibly pull enough support.

[Laava]

That will be entirely up to you. I'm not being obtuse, everything, including work, is voluntary. Cooperate and it'll all work swimmingly.

Oh, you mean just like the current system?

[Laava]

Sounded like it "what do the tenants give me in the way of rent/koha?". Does it really matter what happens so long as you don't lose anything?

You realise that both my questions were hypothetical? But am interested in a serious answer.

[oldrider]

Money free party I would think, failed to get enough backers to even get on the ballot this time around; so I'm glad to see democracy still works at least at some level.

Every political party has a degree of something valuable to offer but they are all equally capable of failing for the same reason ... MONEY!

Notice the way (if for nothing else) that Honi Harawera has advanced his publicity and chances with the financial backing of that new NZ resident Dot.com!

If any government took back control of issuing and cancelling our own government credit and debt their political favour and success would sky-rocket!

As Rothschild said and did: "give me control of the finances of the world, I care not who makes the laws"! Now he and his mates control the world!

The important political issue for New Zealand is always finance but we give financial control away to private banking institutions and pay them to fleece us blind!

Instead of focussing on this real issue we focus on the circus of distraction that is thrown up to divert us ... I.E. Niki Harga's witch hunt and gossip feast! :facepalm:

The media (general) and MMP assure that the status quo remains in place and nothing threatening it ever gains momentum before they quietly snuff it out! :kick:

The only party offering to tackle the money problem is Democrates for Social Credit [http://www.democrats.org.nz/ ] how mutch traction do they get in the media? :rolleyes:

[mashman]

You realise that both my questions were hypothetical? But am interested in a serious answer.

I do NOW (snigger), yes. The simplest way to put it is. What do you want? That's not meant to sound all ooooooo, but what you want is basically what it comes down to. In the meantime i.e. there will have to be a transition process, would you be willing to do something that your country requires? If the answer to the last question is yes for a majority, then it becomes a reality. Again, there's no oooooooo in those "answers". To that end the answers I've already given stand. I know that society would be better off running under an R.B.E. for so many reasons it's taken me however many years to throw out however many hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions. The reactions have been educational ;).

Do you trust me to do my part?

[bogan]

Yeah, well, one thing at a time. The cashless society is how society started out and then currency in all it's forms must have evolved into the present day system over many thousands of years. I cannot see in my head a way that getting rid of currency in all it's forms will work. The fat german and his mate are just billboard faces and will never be anything more than that. They could not possibly pull enough support.

Yeh, but way back when grok just took all our stuff cos he had a bigger club; barter and money has made things fairer and more civilised overall.

I think it can work, but it will be when it is superceded and no longer needed; it won't get majority voted in, and in that it is in the same bin as them two plonkers.


The only party offering to tackle the money problem is Democrates for Social Credit [http://www.democrats.org.nz/ ] how mutch traction do they get in the media? :rolleyes:

Sounds like it is time to give them some here then. All the theory of A+B etc hurts my head atm though, so in simple terms, there are changes to the govt/bank finanical systems, but as consumers we can still use banks and borrow money for things etc?

[mashman]

Oh, you mean just like the current system?

Sorry, missed this one. I would imagine so, yes. Except without financial constraint on every facet of life (healthcare, education, poverty, financially related crime etc...). I'd call it an improvement... you might not.

[Laava]

I do NOW (snigger), yes. The simplest way to put it is. What do you want? That's not meant to sound all ooooooo, but what you want is basically what it comes down to. In the meantime i.e. there will have to be a transition process, would you be willing to do something that your country requires? If the answer to the last question is yes for a majority, then it becomes a reality. Again, there's no oooooooo in those "answers". To that end the answers I've already given stand. I know that society would be better off running under an R.B.E. for so many reasons it's taken me however many years to throw out however many hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions. The reactions have been educational ;).

Do you trust me to do my part?

Sounds to me like you are saying the whole of society would have to change so that everyone has a similar mindset so that everyone can work together as a team. Trying not to make it sound like a utopian communist society but is that the jist of what you are getting at?

[mashman]

Sounds to me like you are saying the whole of society would have to change so that everyone has a similar mindset so that everyone can work together as a team. Trying not to make it sound like a utopian communist society but is that the jist of what you are getting at?

lol, that's a rather simplistic way to look at it, but to answer your question, yes and no. There is no magic switch that can be flicked and everyone is lovely lovely happy happy, but if there aren't financial problems complicating people's lives they may actually have a shot at joining in with what we utopians are trying to accomplish for mankind (poetic wankery for brevity's sake). And when I say utopian, I mean that utopia is a loose goal given that we innovate and will therefore continuously improve and never actually reach utopia. Whether we get there is irrelevant, but I believe that we should make a start given the way things are going. Scumbags will be scumbags, meh, let them be... still doesn't make them useless and beyond change.

[Laava]

K, fair enough.

[Brian d marge]

Yeh, but way back when grok just took all our stuff cos he had a bigger club; barter and money has made things fairer and more civilised overall.


It was when we transitioned from Hunter/gatherer society to one that took up farming , thats when the bigger club took effect. If you think about it , if you have spent all summer growing stuff and someone comes along and takes it , your sharing belief system goes out the window
from then its all downhill Im afraid


Stephen

[Hinny]

Good.
Fucking.
Greif.

Nobody with any credibility can use morgan as a reference.

He has as much credibility as the Sunday Times I would venture .

The Billionaires from Mumbai are not likely to be Poms. whereas the list from the Sunday Times only had one Pom in the top ten.
Hardly a credible list.

As for Britain's debt - the figure of 400% of GDP obviously includes private debt.

[yokel]

It was when we transitioned from Hunter/gatherer society to one that took up farming , thats when the bigger club took effect. If you think about it , if you have spent all summer growing stuff and someone comes along and takes it , your sharing belief system goes out the window
from then its all downhill Im afraid


Stephen

no, we're hunter/gatherer human beings and still are, we go out hunting for dollars and the woman go gathering shiny shit with it, but now they've pretty much tuned dudes in to chicks eg. David Cunliffe

when society collapses then you'll get a real taste of what human beings are all about.
I'm a fucking CAVE MAN! haha

[Laava]

So Yokel, why is society going to collapse? What will set this in motion?

[yokel]

the collective human psyche, we are like frogs in a pot.

why do think Cunliffe is ashamed of is male identity?
whats going to happen to the solo mothers on the DPB when the kids leave home? just happily go out to the work force?
one of my tenance is a solo, she is not capable of working but lucky she just got knocked up so I'll be getting all that rent money from the government.

[wingnutt]

I'm thinking of voting and leaving a blank page, I no confidence in any of them, and it just encourages the buggers

[oldrider]

So Yokel, why is society going to collapse? What will set this in motion?

Money! .... Money! .... Money! Nothing else needs be said! :oi-grr:

[bogan]

It was when we transitioned from Hunter/gatherer society to one that took up farming , thats when the bigger club took effect. If you think about it , if you have spent all summer growing stuff and someone comes along and takes it , your sharing belief system goes out the window
from then its all downhill Im afraid


Stephen

Exactly why we are not ready for an RBE or other resource allocation system where there is a large disconnect between effort/reward. Money solves that, no it isn't perfect but it is a damn sight better than any other idea put forward.

[oldrider]

Exactly why we are not ready for an RBE or other resource allocation system where there is a large disconnect between effort/reward. Money solves that, no it isn't perfect but it is a damn sight better than any other idea put forward.

The money system is good when it is doing it's proper job working for people/communities etc and not against them!

Currently the system is being used erroneously by some groups simply for the power they exact from it and simply because we let them get away with it! :brick:

[mashman]

So Yokel, why is society going to collapse? What will set this in motion?

We all fiddle while Rome burns. It may well be a slow burn, but it'll catch fire soon enough. Thank god the world has nuclear weapons.

[mashman]

Exactly why we are not ready for an RBE or other resource allocation system where there is a large disconnect between effort/reward. Money solves that, no it isn't perfect but it is a damn sight better than any other idea put forward.

Did you ask everybody? Or simply decide on their behalf?

[mashman]

The money system is good when it is doing it's proper job working for people/communities etc and not against them!

Currently the system is being used erroneously by some groups simply for the power they exact from it and simply because we let them get away with it! :brick:

It quite obviously isn't. There is no reset button here. Even if money was completely debt free there would still be these problems, that or we'd end up all being gazillionnaires and bread would be a gazzillion galactic futons. That's the road on which money and the influence on human behaviour lies. That's all it has ever been. It is the ultimate control and the ultimate weapon. It keeps billions starving. Yada yada. Come, move towards the light :laugh:

[bogan]

Did you ask everybody? Or simply decide on their behalf?

Did you? The lack of 500 backers for the money free thingo speaks volumes. That's around 0.01% of people in NZ btw. Democracy works, and has spoken.

[Ocean1]

It quite obviously isn't. There is no reset button here. Even if money was completely debt free there would still be these problems

From the perspective of one who's money is completely debt free the only problems are those who want it without having earned it.

Might I suggest that if you want a say in how resources are allocated that you earn that say. Quite a few have found that works just fine, y'know. :niceone:

The very best change we could make is to remove the huge distortions in resource allocation caused by political parties buying votes by promising to give resources to those that haven't earned them. We need to start charging people to vote.

Couple of $k each orta keep the tealeaves at home.

[Brian d marge]

Money! .... Money! .... Money! Nothing else needs be said! :oi-grr:

Which one are you.. the blonde?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ETxmCCsMoD0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

From the perspective of one who's money is completely debt free the only problems are those who want it without having earned it.

Might I suggest that if you want a say in how resources are allocated that you earn that say. Quite a few have found that works just fine, y'know. :niceone:

The very best change we could make is to remove the huge distortions in resource allocation caused by political parties buying votes by promising to give resources to those that haven't earned them. We need to start charging people to vote.

Couple of $k each orta keep the tealeaves at home.

money is debt , someone, somewhere took out a loan

the banks printed 9x that loan

and you are using / used it

Nope , ya need a debt free system that allows trade a modern day tally stick ........

Many communitys are already operating without cash on a simplistic level , I cant see why in communitys of around 200 people can use a completely ( or as close to ) cash free society it may even .... flourish

but that aint going to happen cause the * man* needs his cut of the action ....

Stephen

[Ocean1]

money is debt , someone, somewhere took out a loan

the banks printed 9x that loan

and you are using / used it

Yes. Restating the same basic sentence ad nauseum doesn't actually make it true.

Except insomuch as I'll allow that my money does actually entail debt. The banks are in debt to me.

Might I recommend that arrangement? I find it a sovereign remedy for absolutely all of the ills that you in particular feel so threatened by.

[Brian d marge]

Yes. Restating the same basic sentence ad nauseum doesn't actually make it true.

Except insomuch as I'll allow that my money does actually entail debt. The banks are in debt to me.

Might I recommend that arrangement? I find it a sovereign remedy for absolutely all of the ills that you in particular feel so threatened by.

and I am the queen of sheba .........


Stephen

[mashman]

Did you? The lack of 500 backers for the money free thingo speaks volumes. That's around 0.01% of people in NZ btw. Democracy works, and has spoken.

It does speak volumes. People are changing their minds. These are people just like you and me and ocean and oscar and anyone else on here. They're agreeing to do what it takes to get an R.B.E. off the ground. I have no issue with you denying that people are ready for it. They'll learn and things will change. It may take a few years, but people representing R.B.E.'s will crop up all over the country. I don't see it taking long. As long as one is open to the idea of doing what it takes. That democracy has worked is an absolute comfort to me. I'm banking on democracy being instrumental in the ascension, snigger, of R.B.E. parties.

[unstuck]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/tGJhbn5sTfU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>:bleh::bleh::bleh:

[mashman]

From the perspective of one who's money is completely debt free the only problems are those who want it without having earned it.

Might I suggest that if you want a say in how resources are allocated that you earn that say. Quite a few have found that works just fine, y'know. :niceone:

The very best change we could make is to remove the huge distortions in resource allocation caused by political parties buying votes by promising to give resources to those that haven't earned them. We need to start charging people to vote.

Couple of $k each orta keep the tealeaves at home.

Seriously. What are you going to lose?

I'm working on it.

No. Not to those who have earned them, but to those who will manufacture what we really require. Put your thinking cap on, is there anything imparticular you'd like to build? Other than a cage for me, man. heh.

The allocation of resources is priority one for an R.B.E. We all require resources, but we build way too much crap with no other real intent than making $. It ain't utopia, it's people building to a common goal and everyone wins, even the greens :shifty:. Praps the twats (those you perceive as twats) will end up giving us a hand. If they don't (you will be supporting them anyway), the generations coming out of school will understand what an R.B.E. is and the reason that we live in one. Instant behavioural change.

So you are willing to pay them :shifty:

[bogan]

It does speak volumes. People are changing their minds. These are people just like you and me and ocean and oscar and anyone else on here. They're agreeing to do what it takes to get an R.B.E. off the ground. I have no issue with you denying that people are ready for it. They'll learn and things will change. It may take a few years, but people representing R.B.E.'s will crop up all over the country. I don't see it taking long. As long as one is open to the idea of doing what it takes. That democracy has worked is an absolute comfort to me. I'm banking on democracy being instrumental in the ascension, snigger, of R.B.E. parties.

Not too good with numbers are you mashy, <0.01% supporting an idea does not an increasing trend make. What it does say, is the people have spoken, and NOW is not the time for an RBE; perhaps it is because nobody actually has a plausible plan for one that fits the BS you keep spouting. The venus project bloke is on the right track though, you could learn a lot from him; primarily, incentivise productive members of society to join up, rather than try to force them.

[oldrider]

Planet Key .. I reckon that's really good a few contradictions but nothing for Key to worry about ... I bet he wasn't the one who pulled it! :oi-grr:

The only bad publicity in politics is "NO" publicity! :corn:

[Ocean1]

The allocation of resources is priority one for an R.B.E.

You mean it's priority one for those who manage an rbe.

Whereas it's actually none of their business what resources get allocated to where, that's the prerogative of the resources owners.

[Ocean1]

The venus project bloke is on the right track though, you could learn a lot from him; primarily, incentivise productive members of society to join up, rather than try to force them.

Indeed. All he needs to add is a token of exchange and a means to store value and he'd have a workable system. :niceone:

[mashman]

Not too good with numbers are you mashy, <0.01% supporting an idea does not an increasing trend make. What it does say, is the people have spoken, and NOW is not the time for an RBE; perhaps it is because nobody actually has a plausible plan for one that fits the BS you keep spouting. The venus project bloke is on the right track though, you could learn a lot from him; primarily, incentivise productive members of society to join up, rather than try to force them.

It's more than there were at the start of the year. Know of any other political party growing at that rate? It only says that the people have spoken once every single one of them has been asked. Who's going to force who? I think one thing Mr Fresco (I have huge respect for the man and his works) doesn't understand, or you have incorrectly translated (my hunch given *), is that if a person decides to vote for a political party that is formed on the principles of an R.B.E., then that person will already be incentivesed. I don't know where the idea of there needing to be coercion has come from... coz it sure don't sound like no thinking that Mr Fresco would have made.

“Democracy is a con game, it is a word invented to outplay people, to make them accept a given institution. All institutions sing ‘we are free’. The minute you hear ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ – watch out, because in a truly free nation, no one has to tell you that you’re free,”. I am incentivised.

[mashman]

You mean it's priority one for those who manage an rbe.

Whereas it's actually none of their business what resources get allocated to where, that's the prerogative of the resources owners.

It's currently up to politicians. Your call man. As much as you may not understand just how sincerely this is meant, I would happily see you as one of those who manage those resources.

It's money to them who hold it. Resource holders will be paid what they are currently being paid in "my" R.B.E. scenario.

[bogan]

It's more than there were at the start of the year. Know of any other political party growing at that rate? It only says that the people have spoken once every single one of them has been asked. Who's going to force who? I think one thing Mr Fresco (I have huge respect for the man and his works) doesn't understand, or you have incorrectly translated (my hunch given *), is that if a person decides to vote for a political party that is formed on the principles of an R.B.E., then that person will already be incentivesed. I don't know where the idea of there needing to be coercion has come from... coz it sure don't sound like no thinking that Mr Fresco would have made.

“Democracy is a con game, it is a word invented to outplay people, to make them accept a given institution. All institutions sing ‘we are free’. The minute you hear ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ – watch out, because in a truly free nation, no one has to tell you that you’re free,”. I am incentivised.

Yup, mana/internet didn't get any votes last time around either, and they are actually on the ballot too. Like I said, the incumbents have more to worry about from the fat german and his rascist mate.

So, if nobody is forced and voting is the incentivisation, then you are not going for a majority, but a 100% poll result. 0.01% is a long way from that, linear extrapolation gives us 10,000 years to go; good luck with that :innocent:
That is exactly my point, you seek to force guys like me and ocean to go along with this rubbish if it gets voted through, Mr Fresco takes more of a commune style approach, join us if you like, and prosper within. So how about you fuck right off to a commune and see put you 'money' where you mouth is; see how it actually goes.

There is less freedom in an RBE as the producers do not decide where their produce goes, the consumers do not decide what they can consume.

[mashman]

Yup, mana/internet didn't get any votes last time around either, and they are actually on the ballot too. Like I said, the incumbents have more to worry about from the fat german and his rascist mate.

So, if nobody is forced and voting is the incentivisation, then you are not going for a majority, but a 100% poll result. 0.01% is a long way from that, linear extrapolation gives us 10,000 years to go; good luck with that :innocent:
That is exactly my point, you seek to force guys like me and ocean to go along with this rubbish if it gets voted through, Mr Fresco takes more of a commune style approach, join us if you like, and prosper within. So how about you fuck right off to a commune and see put you 'money' where you mouth is; see how it actually goes.

There is less freedom in an RBE as the producers do not decide where their produce goes, the consumers do not decide what they can consume.

I disagree on too many levels.

[Ocean1]

It's currently up to politicians. Your call man. As much as you may not understand just how sincerely this is meant, I would happily see you as one of those who manage those resources.

It's money to them who hold it. Resource holders will be paid what they are currently being paid in "my" R.B.E. scenario.

It's not up to politicians, it's up to resource owners, and I already manage those resources I own, that's what owning them means. Anyone else attempting to manage an asset is simply a thief.

And if the owners want to value it monetarily, or in crayfish or gumboots that's also their business. Not yours. Not mine.

History isn't very kind to govts that have nationalised privately held assets. And at that it's a fucking sight kinder than I'd be.

[mashman]

It's not up to politicians, it's up to resource owners, and I already manage those resources I own, that's what owning them means. Anyone else attempting to manage an asset is simply a thief.

And if the owners want to value it monetarily, or in crayfish or gumboots that's also their business. Not yours. Not mine.

History isn't very kind to govts that have nationalised privately held assets. And at that it's a fucking sight kinder than I'd be.

What are you so afraid of losing?

Yup, only when they're a majority.

Privatised? Nah, quite the opposite.

[yokel]

How about some solutions people?

if I was king for a day I'd make anyone reviving assistance from the government to not be eligible to vote due to their bias and their whats in it for me bullshit

oh yeah and add woman on to the not eligible list to haha

[Woodman]

Mashman, your system won't work because we have too much invested in the current one. Who will pay the overseas debt when your system starts? and with what?.

Its too late, move on.

[bogan]

I disagree on too many levels.

And just as the 99.99% disagree with you, democracy works.

Was beginning to lose faith in it a bit given the current crop of political candidates, but since you've explained just how much worse it could be, my faith is mostly restored :2thumbsup

[Brian d marge]

Mashman, your system won't work because we have too much invested in the current one. Who will pay the overseas debt when your system starts? and with what?.

Its too late, move on.

watch what happens to Iceland when ya shaft * the man*

My guess it may make yr eyes sting

Stephen

[mashman]

Mashman, your system won't work because we have too much invested in the current one. Who will pay the overseas debt when your system starts? and with what?.

Its too late, move on.

It's not mine. I agree, we do have a lot invested in the current economy. That does not need to change, and won't overnight. Just about everything will have to stay the same for some time, you can't just flip a switch and I would say that until a vote of 75% is pulled at the ballot, that an R.B.E. should be postponed. If human activity isn't limited by financial constraint, what can't be done (i.e. 100 nurses currently unemployed can go straight to work). The valuation of that human activity is remunerated as a salary. Dividing the salary of every nurse to meet the total budget spend for the year is as easy as saying, diving the total number of nurses by the total budget. You have 100 more nurses and all you needed to do was adjust the salaries. In an R.B.E. that would not be a problem, no one would have access to any less than they currently do (food, water, house, sewerage, farfming, technological advancement, less crime, blah blah blah). Using the system against itself would be a piece of piss for economists.

It has been my choice to accept an R.B.E. as a better solution than any of the options put forwards to date. That choice has been made by many other people. It's just the beginning.

[mashman]

And just as the 99.99% disagree with you, democracy works.

Was beginning to lose faith in it a bit given the current crop of political candidates, but since you've explained just how much worse it could be, my faith is mostly restored :2thumbsup

Change always starts somewhere. Soon your vote will count irrespective of how you cast it. I care not who you vote for. I am relying on democracy, something you seem to think I'm not.

Then you have allowed me to influence your judgement. How disappointing.

[bogan]

Change always starts somewhere. Soon your vote will count irrespective of how you cast it. I care not who you vote for. I am relying on democracy, something you seem to think I'm not.

Then you have allowed me to influence your judgement. How disappointing.

Ahh, democracy you may rely on, but with 0.01% in your favor, logic is not your strong suit.

Not really, all open minded people allow others to influence their judgment, perhaps you should try it.

[mashman]

Ahh, democracy you may rely on, but with 0.01% in your favor, logic is not your strong suit.

Not really, all open minded people allow others to influence their judgment, perhaps you should try it.

As I said. This is just the beginning. You're welcome to your conclusion.

No they don't. Open minded people ONLY allow their own judgement to influence them. Perhaps you should try it.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we're done.

[Brian d marge]

A really big change comes from lots of people doing little things
Like giving to your neighbours . . . I do . . And they keep me in veges all season

Fk knows what i will do with all these potatoes

Then in a simple clear question and statement send a letter . .freepost , . To your mp

In fact all the mps

Then reduce your exposure to the man as much as possible

And say no to all theirmad schemes

Stephen

[bogan]

As I said. This is just the beginning. You're welcome to your conclusion.

No they don't. Open minded people ONLY allow their own judgement to influence them. Perhaps you should try it.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we're done.

Reading not your strong suit either it seems, my judgment of other things is what influences me, and it has judged you wanting, again (and in multiple senses of the word).