Elections are coming up. What are we thinking?

[mashman]

Reading not your strong suit either it seems, my judgment of other things is what influences me, and it has judged you wanting, again (and in multiple senses of the word).

I know.....

[Swoop]

He has as much credibility as the Sunday Times I would venture .
You cannot trust a word that comes out of his mouth, let alone what he writes or "permits" to be written.

In the UK, Morgan worked as a writer and editor for several British tabloids, including The Sun, News of the World and the Daily Mirror. In November 2012, he was heavily criticised in the official findings of the Leveson Inquiry, when Lord Leveson stated that comments made in Morgan's testimony about phone hacking were "utterly unpersuasive" and "clearly prove ... that he was aware that it was taking place in the press as a whole and that he was sufficiently unembarrassed by what was criminal behaviour that he was prepared to joke about it".

He is more suited to being a judge of a talent show than a source of reliable, intelligent facts. An intellectual researcher, he is not.

[blue rider]

not thinking anything anymore really

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11310252


But if tomorrow's Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update no longer forecasts a surplus for the current year, the financial markets and rating agencies will not care, Bagrie said.

"Does it really matter if the balance is $400 million in the black or $400 million in the red?" he said.

"If they are a year out [in returning to surplus] then so be it. Step back and look at the big turnaround we have seen."

:brick:

also this
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/20146025/prime-minister-stands-by-minister-and-staff

Team Key
Fucka Yeah
:2thumbsup

[buggerit]

Planet Key?:innocent:

[oldrider]

Planet Key?:innocent:

Yes indeed "PLANET KEY" is absolutely "DOWN to EARTH" and all will be revealed post election and MMP lolly scramble, when a government is finally formed! :yes:

[Brian d marge]

not thinking anything anymore really

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11310252



:brick:

also this
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/20146025/prime-minister-stands-by-minister-and-staff

Team Key
Fucka Yeah
:2thumbsup
Remember this is AFTER they sold the car ........

Stephen

[Katman]

He is more suited to being a judge of a talent show than a source of reliable, intelligent facts. An intellectual researcher, he is not.

This from the copy and paste King.

[SMOKEU]

Get the jew out along with his hypocrisy and vote ALCP.

[Brian d marge]

Alcoholicly liberated conservative party

[Woodman]

Ass Licking Child Pornographers ?

[Brian d marge]

Ass Licking Child Pornographers ?
Hahaha this thread is about politics not the church

[Laava]

African Lazy Cunts Party

[Brian d marge]

Alcoholic and lazy cunts party now that a vote right there

[Woodman]

Alcoholic and lazy cunts party now that a vote right there

Thats the same as money free party. Well thats what I would turn into if I didn't have to work and beer was free.

[The Reibz]

What is currently the most racist party one can vote for?

[mashman]

What is currently the most racist party one can vote for?

The Natzional Party :weird:

[mashman]

Thats the same as money free party. Well thats what I would turn into if I didn't have to work and beer was free.

If your job is unrequired, then you can turn into as much of a beer swilling maroon under an R.B.E.

[Woodman]

If your job is unrequired, then you can turn into as much of a beer swilling maroon under an R.B.E.

Required or not required I will still be a lazy beer drinking slob thanks, and anyway who is gonna stop me? and under threat of what?

[Brian d marge]

Is rhat a chocolate maroon? d=(^o^)=b

[Brian d marge]

May I remind you of what will be .........

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/0j-qUNbtvgM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephen

without the royals of course .....

[mashman]

Required or not required I will still be a lazy beer drinking slob thanks, and anyway who is gonna stop me? and under threat of what?

lol... NOW you're getting it.

[oldrider]

Hey poos, why don't you run a new poll post Niki Hager's shit stirring book and compare it to the one above! :corn:

[AllanB]

That Hager arse pisses me off. Who the F would buy one of his books?

Maybe I'll right a book,

[Brian d marge]

That Hager arse pisses me off. Who the F would buy one of his books?

Maybe I'll right a book,

I've left a book sometimes

Stephen

[Woodman]

That Hager arse pisses me off. Who the F would buy one of his books?

Maybe I'll right a book,

Did a book fall over?

[avgas]

It might be an interesting election. Everyone will have to play into their own racist roots.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/awesome_screenshot/5619035?AWSAccessKeyId=0R7FMW7AXRVCYMAPTPR2&Expires=1408546701&Signature=hME1aOkNX2wP7%2BHmmC0yoMhnp%2FQ%3D

[oldrider]

Today, received in the mail box from the Conservative party a postal equivalent of this: http://www.standforsomething.org.nz/

Apart from the occasional board on the roadside this is the only stuff or politician that has ventured near us so far!

Seems reasonable not over or understated!

Food for thought was Garth McVicars story in the broacher but it does not appear in the link above ... pity because it was interesting information on a paedophile case!

[Swoop]

I'm guessing that yesterday signalled the first day of political advertising on telly?
There were certainly a few adverts, including the legalise weed party.


I have to strongly object to misrepresentation being made by the National party advert. You know the one with a lot of rowers?
This advert was misleading at the end, where it shows a boat of red and green shirted rowers going in all directions apart from forwards...
The advert shows one red shirted coxswain at one end and a green shirted one at the other. This is misleading since there will be TWO green shirted coxswains at that end co-cocking things up.:nya:

[bluninja]

I'm guessing that yesterday signalled the first day of political advertising on telly?
There were certainly a few adverts, including the legalise weed party.


I have to strongly object to misrepresentation being made by the National party advert. You know the one with a lot of rowers?
This advert was misleading at the end, where it shows a boat of red and green shirted rowers going in all directions apart from forwards...
The advert shows one red shirted coxswain at one end and a green shirted one at the other. This is misleading since there will be TWO green shirted coxswains at that end co-cocking things up.:nya:

What about the purple coxswain in the middle?

[MisterD]

What about the purple coxswain in the middle?

It needed to suitable for family viewing, so they couldn't show them fellating a fat bloke in a German helmet.

[Swoop]

It needed to suitable for family viewing, so they couldn't show them fellating a fat bloke in a German helmet.

:clap::clap:

[Oscar]

This is funny - from the Yahoo News Website:https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/24774070/keys-personal-popularity-takes-a-dive/

The headline was "Key's personal popularity takes a dive", so I'm thinking, "wow, he's finally crapped out...".
But no, it was this:


John Key's popularity as Prime Minister has taken a hit according to a Herald Digipoll due out tomorrow.

It is the first full poll since the release of Nicky Hager's book 'Dirty Politics'.

In it, Key is down 8.5% to 64.8% as preferred prime minister.

He dropped more that Cunliffe polls and still two thirds of the population prefer him as PM.
What does Cunliffe have to do? I almost feel sorry for the smarmy prick.....almost.

[puddytat]

There seems to be a lot of smarmy in politics.....
an unfortunate trait of the profession or a side effect there of.

[oldrider]

There seems to be a lot of smarmy in politics.....
an unfortunate trait of the profession or a side effect there of.

Entertainers do what their audience pays to watch or they are out on their ear ... market driven!

New Zealand gets the governments that they deserve or what the media tells them that they want!

Media have not had much to work on this year though and they are really having to push shit up hill now!

They need a star like Peter Montgomery ... he can make grass growing sound entertaining! :facepalm:

[SPman]

This is funny - from the Yahoo News Website:https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/24774070/keys-personal-popularity-takes-a-dive/

The headline was "Key's personal popularity takes a dive", so I'm thinking, "wow, he's finally crapped out...".
But no, it was this:


He dropped more that Cunliffe polls and still two thirds of the population prefer him as PM.
What does Cunliffe have to do? I almost feel sorry for the smarmy prick.....almost.
JK could appear on a TV debate, spend his entire allotted time baring his pimply white arse to the cameras, and *still* come out 20 points clear for preferred PM................:rolleyes:

A lot of people don't follow what's going on and just want a nice smily chap in charge.....

[Brian d marge]

look how much has changed.........

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/_iAzIkjO3G0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


not

stephen

[mashman]

look how much has changed.........

not

stephen

:niceone:... Beautiful contemporary satire.

... and now back to the puppets.

[Swoop]

He dropped more that Cunliffe polls and still two thirds of the population prefer him as PM.
What does Cunliffe have to do?
Perhaps become a competent leader of people?



I wonder what the interdweeb-moron party are thinking about their PR manager now? Pam Cockery has been doing her best today with the media... :rofl:

[oldrider]

JK could appear on a TV debate, spend his entire allotted time baring his pimply white arse to the cameras, and *still* come out 20 points clear for preferred PM................:rolleyes:

A lot of people don't follow what's going on and just want a nice smily chap in charge.....

Thats what is called reading the play, giving the people what they want ... smart selling! ... So who are the dickheads the people or John Key? :rolleyes:

NZ gets the government that they deserve! :yes: and MMP for dessert! :corn:

[puddytat]

Perhaps become a competent leader of people?



I wonder what the interdweeb-moron party are thinking about their PR manager now? Pam Cockery has been doing her best today with the media... :rofl:

I thought she summed up MSM quite well......
Dude....its about the net nowadays

[SPman]

Thats what is called reading the play, giving the people what they want ... smart selling! ... So who are the dickheads the people or John Key? :rolleyes:

NZ gets the government that they deserve! :yes: and MMP for dessert! :corn:If the people can't be bothered to take any serious interest in who is ruling them, they deserve whatever they get!
MMP is better than many of the systems around the world, if you know how to use it - certainly better than the mickey mouse Aussie system - whatever it is!

[Brian d marge]

Welcome to the new world and the new world order

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/nj2KHpw1K14" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephan

[MisterD]

MMP is better than many of the systems around the world, if you know how to use it

Which the politicians do. I'll say one thing for MMP, it's a marvellous device for concentrating power in the hands of politicians, whilst letting voters think they have more say than they used to.


I see that "Green" is becoming more of a synonym for "intellectually dishonest" every day. http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/crampton_and_nolan_on_greens_spending_claims.html

[Brian d marge]

Which the politicians do. I'll say one thing for MMP, it's a marvellous device for concentrating power in the hands of politicians, whilst letting voters think they have more say than they used to.


I see that "Green" is becoming more of a synonym for "intellectually dishonest" every day. http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/crampton_and_nolan_on_greens_spending_claims.html
The nz treasury . . . .under the current rules of the game

Are quite good

Kiwis generally being an honest bunch

On saying that , they politicians are all good at presenting us with what will

Until they get in and find out what is and will be

Personally i would have used the new janet yellen approach

Ahhhhhh . . . . . .wibble . . . Err wibble

The 2 pencils are a dead give away

Stephen

[oldrider]

If the people can't be bothered to take any serious interest in who is ruling them, they deserve whatever they get!
MMP is better than many of the systems around the world, if you know how to use it - certainly better than the mickey mouse Aussie system - whatever it is!

Well, better than FPP (First past the post!) anyway but there will be few here that can probably even remember what it was like under FPP!

Time marches on and it is amazing how quickly things like that faid away in the memory banks! :confused:

[Laava]

The nz treasury . . . .under the current rules of the game

Are quite good

Kiwis generally being an honest bunch

On saying that , they politicians are all good at presenting us with what will

Until they get in and find out what is and will be

Personally i would have used the new janet yellen approach

Ahhhhhh . . . . . .wibble . . . Err wibble

The 2 pencils are a dead give away

Stephen

Dude, have you been licking frogs?

[Brian d marge]

Dude, have you been licking frogs?
No the treasury are quite good at keeping the ship afloat

Probably the only reason

Wibble

[SPman]

Well, better than FPP (First past the post!) anyway but there will be few here that can probably even remember what it was like under FPP!

After SoCred got 20 odd % of the vote and no MP's......:bleh:

[gjm]

...

Wibble.

I thought I was going to post something deep, meaningful and insightful (as opposed to inciteful) but re-read it, decided it was complete bollocks, and deleted it.

Of course, it may have been an election-winning manifesto, but we'll never know now.

[Brian d marge]

...

Wibble.

I thought I was going to post something deep, meaningful and insightful (as opposed to inciteful) but re-read it, decided it was complete bollocks, and deleted it.

Of course, it may have been an election-winning manifesto, but we'll never know now.
Were you wearing underpants and have control of 2 pencils

[Laava]

Were you wearing underpants and have control of 2 pencils

Blackadder style pencil case?

[oldrider]

After SoCred got 20 odd % of the vote and no MP's......:bleh:

Exackery! .... I was warming to MMP because it enabled Maori to move on out into parliament and participate in their own terms!

They were always being held under and being drowned by the bloody Labour party pretending to have Maori best interests at heart!

I admire Tariana Turia for moving out and getting the Maori party under way!

Unfortunately fucking Hone Harawera came along and fucked that up for everybody and now he has sold his soul to the fat german fugitive! :rolleyes:

[Brian d marge]

Blackadder style pencil case?
Ahhhh . . .wibble . . . . .a Wibble . .

[Laava]

Exackery! .... I was warming to MMP because it enabled Maori to move on out into parliament and participate in their own terms!

They were always being held under and being drowned by the bloody Labour party pretending to have Maori best interests at heart!

I admire Tariana Turia for moving out and getting the Maori party under way!

Unfortunately fucking Hone Harawera came along and fucked that up for everybody and now he has sold his soul to the fat german fugitive! :rolleyes:

Don't see how Hone leaving the maori party makes it worse for them?

[oldrider]

Don't see how Hone leaving the maori party makes it worse for them?

I think I get your point.

Hone is a major distraction and cause of division just when they needed a bit of solidarity but competition is always good I suppose!

[Banditbandit]

The fundamental issue has always been that the Māori party covers a wide political spectrum ... they are united only by being Māori ... but Flavell is a conservative, Hone is pretty left while Tari and Peter are fairly centrist.

It was doomed to split and divide from the start.

[Laava]

The fundamental issue has always been that the Māori party covers a wide political spectrum ... they are united only by being Māori ... but Flavell is a conservative, Hone is pretty left while Tari and Peter are fairly centrist.

It was doomed to split and divide from the start.

Yep, but that is a good thing longterm. Think more maori are starting to get involved now with the running of this country? Voters wise I mean. So it is good to see a wider spectrum of candidates. Don't think Hone will do that well but he will get his seat in parliament again no doubt. Pretty popular bloke up here in the far north, not that I would vote for him but I admire his conviction on certain issues. He is a lot more transparent than your average candidate as well which is one of his better qualities.

[bogan]

Yep, but that is a good thing longterm. Think more maori are starting to get involved now with the running of this country? Voters wise I mean. So it is good to see a wider spectrum of candidates. Don't think Hone will do that well but he will get his seat in parliament again no doubt. Pretty popular bloke up here in the far north, not that I would vote for him but I admire his conviction on certain issues. He is a lot more transparent than your average candidate as well which is one of his better qualities.

Indeed, and with watering down of party's racial 'purity' like hone and dot, all voters in NZ might eventually vote on policy decisions instead of race. Although more likely it will turn into a high school popularity contest complete with leaked diary pages and much cattiness. #electiondebateswhen?

[Oscar]

The fundamental issue has always been that the Māori party covers a wide political spectrum ... they are united only by being Māori ... but Flavell is a conservative, Hone is pretty left while Tari and Peter are fairly centrist.

It was doomed to split and divide from the start.

I was impressed when I saw the poster where Dr Lance O'Sullivan was lending his support to the party.
That good will ebbed away when I saw that Tame Iti had been selected...

[Banditbandit]

Indeed, and with watering down of party's racial 'purity' like hone and dot, all voters in NZ might eventually vote on policy decisions instead of race. Although more likely it will turn into a high school popularity contest complete with leaked diary pages and much cattiness. #electiondebateswhen?

Voting is tribal ... National was the party set up by the farmers ... (and that tribe still largely votes that way). Labour the party set up by the unions ... (and that tribe still largely votes that way) ... both were lobby groups that decided to set up their own party.

Māori have ben reduced to a lobby group - and did what all lobby groups do - set up a political party ..

Policy decisions affect different tribes in different ways ... so, for instance, a policy holding down wages is good for the employer tribe, but bad for the worker tribe .. having a "voice at the table" means you get to put across your own concept of how your tribe will be affected ...

Using the concept of "race" in this way is just another way of the opponents attacking a particular lobby group ...

[bogan]

Voting is tribal ... National was the party set up by the farmers ... (and that tribe still largely votes that way). Labour the party set up by the unions ... (and that tribe still largely votes that way) ... both were lobby groups that decided to set up their own party.

Māori have ben reduced to a lobby group - and did what all lobby groups do - set up a political party ..

Policy decisions affect different tribes in different ways ... so, for instance, a policy holding down wages is good for the employer tribe, but bad for the worker tribe .. having a "voice at the table" means you get to put across your own concept of how your tribe will be affected ...

Using the concept of "race" in this way is just another way of the opponents attacking a particular lobby group ...

Big difference between, I am a farmer and I agree with national's policy regarding wages so will vote for them, and I am a Maori so will vote for the maori party. Sure you will get some that just default to who they have voted for, others that just vote with their tribal mob... But the current realities of the situation should not stop us wishing for and working towards a better one. Maori seats and racially oriented parties will be an impediment to progressing towards a smarter voting public (as is tribal/default voting); at best they are a stepping stone to encourage participation as Lavaa pointed out.

[Banditbandit]

Big difference between, I am a farmer and I agree with national's policy regarding wages so will vote for them, and I am a Maori so will vote for the maori party. Sure you will get some that just default to who they have voted for, others that just vote with their tribal mob... But the current realities of the situation should not stop us wishing for and working towards a better one. Maori seats and racially oriented parties will be an impediment to progressing towards a smarter voting public (as is tribal/default voting); at best they are a stepping stone to encourage participation as Lavaa pointed out.

Māori do not all vote for the Māori Party - and look at people like Hekia Parata and Winston Peters, Nanaia Mahuta, Tau Henare ... Māori are there in other parties too ... political support and voting patterns are just as spread as the non-Māori votes.

I hope that they do not support the Māori Party simply because they are Māori - I hope they vote that way because they like what the party has managed to achieve ..

In our contemporary society Māori are 15+% of the population - a significant group affected by policies and legislation. Of course we want to be heard in parliament.

Ignoring the voice of a significant percentage of the population because it is "race based" is simply a way to avoid dealing with that percentage.

[Laava]

Māori do not all vote for the Māori Party - and look at people like Hekia Parata and Winston Peters, Nanaia Mahuta, Tau Henare ... Māori are there in other parties too ... political support and voting patterns are just as spread as the non-Māori votes.

I hope that they do not support the Māori Party simply because they are Māori - I hope they vote that way because they like what the party has managed to achieve ..

In our contemporary society Māori are 15+% of the population - a significant group affected by policies and legislation. Of course we want to be heard in parliament.

Ignoring the voice of a significant percentage of the population because it is "race based" is simply a way to avoid dealing with that percentage.

Yep, which is why I don't see why there needs to be a separate maori enrolment system. I guess that may eventually not be needed. I think people are a lot better educated now as to maori culture and the fact that it is a massive part of our countries makeup. Very noticeable change in the general populations attitudes compared to, say 20 yrs ago. We could be in for some interesting times politically in the next decade or two and I mean in a positive way.

[Banditbandit]

Yep, which is why I don't see why there needs to be a separate maori enrolment system. I guess that may eventually not be needed. I think people are a lot better educated now as to maori culture and the fact that it is a massive part of our countries makeup. Very noticeable change in the general populations attitudes compared to, say 20 yrs ago. We could be in for some interesting times politically in the next decade or two and I mean in a positive way.

I agree - interesting times.

The increasing percentage of the population that identifies as Māori/Pacific islander (i.e. Polynesian descent) and the decreasing percentage of the population that is Pākehā will bring change itself ...

I'm not sure about garaunteed Māori representation - the evidence is staking up to suggest it is no longer needed - However I think the population shift will eventually mean a majority of MPs are Polynesian descent. If that occurs, and we have abolished the Maori seats there will be no basis for garaunteed seats for Pākehā New Zealanders ..

[bluninja]

Ignoring the voice of a significant percentage of the population because it is "race based" is simply a way to avoid dealing with that percentage.

So when the Asian population grows to 15% (projected 2021 by NZ Stats) will they be given race based seats? :wari:

Isn't your statement the basic proposition for MMP? Thus we could have any number of ethnic based parties, and provided they received 5% of the party vote or won an electorate then that percentage is "represented" in government. That being the case, why have electorates ring fenced on a racial basis?

[oldrider]

I agree - interesting times.

The increasing percentage of the population that identifies as Māori/Pacific islander (i.e. Polynesian descent) and the decreasing percentage of the population that is Pākehā will bring change itself ...

I'm not sure about garaunteed Māori representation - the evidence is staking up to suggest it is no longer needed - However I think the population shift will eventually mean a majority of MPs are Polynesian descent. If that occurs, and we have abolished the Maori seats there will be no basis for garaunteed seats for Pākehā New Zealanders ..

Had this situation been present at the beginning of our nationhood and Maori had not run with stupid bloody Labour party I suspect the Maori seats would have been dissolved by Maori by now!

Solid Maori representation could have been present right from the start!

I suspect there are still a substantial number of Maori voters who do not vote and do not get involved with politics because they feel alienated from the system.

Having the "Maori party" there is a very valuable springboard for some of these people to make a beginning through a perceived Maori comfort zone!

Like a political apprenticeship if you will .... all Labour did was put their boot on Maori necks and squeeze them down to do it our way or take the highway!

That's only my opinion and I had great hopes for Maori political advancement through the advent of the "Maori Party"!

That is why I feel a little vexed with Hone for fucking with it! :facepalm:

[bogan]

Māori do not all vote for the Māori Party - and look at people like Hekia Parata and Winston Peters, Nanaia Mahuta, Tau Henare ... Māori are there in other parties too ... political support and voting patterns are just as spread as the non-Māori votes.

I hope that they do not support the Māori Party simply because they are Māori - I hope they vote that way because they like what the party has managed to achieve ..

In our contemporary society Māori are 15+% of the population - a significant group affected by policies and legislation. Of course we want to be heard in parliament.

Ignoring the voice of a significant percentage of the population because it is "race based" is simply a way to avoid dealing with that percentage.

Didn't say all of them did, but being so racially oriented in name (and lets face it, their policies focus on getting the best for the moari race too); some simpletons will vote that way.

So be heard like everyone else, there is no whitey party, no asian party etc etc, and certainly no earmarked seats for such; we are not the color of our skin, and we should vote based on what is good for all kiwis.

Nobody is talking about ignoring their voice, but we would like it to be from what they think, not the color of their skin.

[Brian d marge]

Im going with Rev Al sharpton ,

keen as mustard and has Nz as his banner

Stephen

[Banditbandit]

So when the Asian population grows to 15% (projected 2021 by NZ Stats) will they be given race based seats? :wari:

Percentage of the population was NOT the argument for Māori seats .. and I'm not totally commited to the concept.


Isn't your statement the basic proposition for MMP? Thus we could have any number of ethnic based parties, and provided they received 5% of the party vote or won an electorate then that percentage is "represented" in government. That being the case, why have electorates ring fenced on a racial basis?

Yes - that's correct, and why I'm not totally committed to the Māori seats.

If we abolish them now, the issue is for the future - what might happen if there are NO Pākehā in Parliament, would Pākehā want gauranted Pākehā seats? After all, the belong in this country .. and would have no representation. If the Māori seats are abolished now because "We don't need them" then Pākehā New Zealand would have no argument for Pākehā only seats. .

[Banditbandit]

Had this situation been present at the beginning of our nationhood and Maori had not run with stupid bloody Labour party I suspect the Maori seats would have been dissolved by Maori by now!

OUr ancestors (the Māōri ones at least) never envisioned a situation where Māori would become a minority in this country - that had major impacts on the response to the immigrant population of the 19th xcentury ,,


Solid Maori representation could have been present right from the start!

Representative Government was not a Māori thing. But yes, that should have occurred - but I seriously doubtr the colonizers of the time would have allowed it.


I suspect there are still a substantial number of Maori voters who do not vote and do not get involved with politics because they feel alienated from the system.

Lots don't vote - and for that reason - they are disaffected ..


Having the "Maori party" there is a very valuable springboard for some of these people to make a beginning through a perceived Maori comfort zone!

Like a political apprenticeship if you will .... all Labour did was put their boot on Maori necks and squeeze them down to do it our way or take the highway!

That's only my opinion and I had great hopes for Maori political advancement through the advent of the "Maori Party"!

That is why I feel a little vexed with Hone for fucking with it! :facepalm:

Yes - all that - but many of us are also vexed that the party supports national. We (a majority of Maori Party voters)wanted them to go with Labour. I have not voted Māori Party for a couple of elections, and won't this time.

[buggerit]

Percentage of the population was NOT the argument for Māori seats .. and I'm not totally commited to the concept.



Yes - that's correct, and why I'm not totally committed to the Māori seats.

If we abolish them now, the issue is for the future - what might happen if there are NO Pākehā in Parliament, would Pākehā want gauranted Pākehā seats? After all, the belong in this country .. and would have no representation. If the Māori seats are abolished now because "We don't need them" then Pākehā New Zealand would have no argument for Pākehā only seats. .

Im happy with New Zealanders, breed makes no difference to me, same as when I go to doctor,dentist etc, its more to do with ability and
attitude.

[bogan]

If we abolish them now, the issue is for the future - what might happen if there are NO Pākehā in Parliament, would Pākehā want gauranted Pākehā seats? After all, the belong in this country .. and would have no representation. If the Māori seats are abolished now because "We don't need them" then Pākehā New Zealand would have no argument for Pākehā only seats. .

Why the fuck would we need them? Pakeha is simply not a thing to most (or at least some) of us. I will vote for the party doing the best for all New Zealanders; lets forever abolish racially oriented seats and thus de-institutionalise racially segregated voting.

[Banditbandit]

Didn't say all of them did, but being so racially oriented in name (and lets face it, their policies focus on getting the best for the moari race too); some simpletons will vote that way.

Of course the aim is to get the best results for Māori - just as Labour supposedly aims to get the best results for workers ... it is politically naïve to think that a party does not aim to serve the best interests of those they see as their support group ...


So be heard like everyone else, there is no whitey party, no asian party etc etc, and certainly no earmarked seats for such; we are not the color of our skin, .

You are wrong to think it is race-based. The significant difference is not the colour of skin, genes or anything like that. It is culture ... different cultures have different, and legitimate ways of doing things ... our ways are just as legitimate as "whitey" (a term I dislike and never use - except to throw it back at people like you). We have a different worldview and different responses to a trange of situations ..

And I know lots of Pākehā who vote for the Māori Party ...

We want the same things as the rest of Godzone .. a better life, a comfortable life, a better life for our children, a clean environment, fish in the sea to catch, animals to hunt on the land .. able to go to the beach - have a BBQ ... (we just might cook different things on our BBQ) - a health system that caters to our needs, and education system that educates our children so they can get good jobs ...


and we should vote based on what is good for all kiwis

I hope that we all do that - but that is a matter of perspective .. I'm sure that DonKey thinks he is doing things that are good for New Zealand - I disagree and won't vote for him ..


Nobody is talking about ignoring their voice, but we would like it to be from what they think, not the color of their skin.

Good - because there are heaps of people who oppose the Māori Party simply because they hate Māori - they hate us for the colour of our skins ...

[Banditbandit]

Im happy with New Zealanders, breed makes no difference to me, same as when I go to doctor,dentist etc, its more to do with ability and
attitude.

Yes - and we expect different things in terms of ability and attitude ... we are not just looking for a technically and scientifically competent doctor or dentist .. the scientifically technically competent doctors are a product of the western world .. we want more than that. There's a host of cultural issues that you take for granted and don't see - but we experience them because they are behaviours that are foreign to us ..

Did you know that Māori men who go to the doctor with urination problems are 25% LESS likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer than their Pākehā counterparts .. and then die from the disease ... plenty of other examples

Is it because the doctors don't care about us? Are they simply negligent when it comes to our health ? Are they racist ?

[Banditbandit]

Why the fuck would we need them? Pakeha is simply not a thing to most (or at least some) of us.

If "Pākehā" is not a thing to most of you why is "Māori" a thing for you?

[bogan]

Of course the aim is to get the best results for Māori - just as Labour supposedly aims to get the best results for workers ... it is politically naïve to think that a party does not aim to serve the best interests of those they see as their support group ..



You are wrong to think it is race-based. The significant difference is not the colour of skin, genes or anything like that. It is culture ... different cultures have different, and legitimate ways of doing things ... our ways are just as legitimate as "whitey" (a term I dislike and never use - except to throw it back at people like you). We have a different worldview and different responses to a trange of situations ..

And I know lots of Pākehā who vote for the Māori Party ...

We want the same things as the rest of Godzone .. a better life, a comfortable life, a better life for our children, a clean environment, fish in the sea to catch, animals to hunt on the land .. able to go to the beach - have a BBQ ... (we just might cook different things on our BBQ) - a health system that caters to our needs, and education system that educates our children so they can get good jobs ...



Good - because there are heaps of people who oppose the Māori Party simply because they hate Māori - they hate us for the colour of our skins ...

Yeh, which is why the support group should not be based on race.

As is your right, I've no problem with culture preservation etc, but you need not have special seats/votes to do that; in that it is about the color of your skin, and that taint spreads to how pakeha vote on maori issues too I'm sure. You want the Maori party to be about maori culture only, then take race completely out of the equation; it might also help to stop using the divisionist term 'pakeha' too.

So what? Racism is not an excuse, they are a minority which should be paid no mind.


If "Pākehā" is not a thing to most of you why is "Māori" a thing for you?

The maori party, maori only seats, maori only voting; kinda suprised you have to ask that question.

[Banditbandit]

So what? Racism is not an excuse, they are a minority which should be paid no mind.

Hang about - that doesn't sit with your other posts .. are you saying Māori are a minority and should be ignored?

And when did I use racism as an excuse?




The maori party, maori only seats, maori only voting; kinda suprised you have to ask that question.

That was more in response to some of your other posts - especially the tenor of them ...

[bogan]

Hang about - that doesn't sit with your other posts .. are you saying Māori are a minority and should be ignored?

And when did I use racism as an excuse?





That was more in response to some of your other posts - especially the tenor of them ...

Of course not, just that we don't need to racially orient the voting system to counter a minority of racist voters; the whole point of MMP is to cater to minority's putting their ideas forward, not other minorities putting them down.

You keep bringing it up like it somehow excuses racially oriented voting system, the point that there are racist people in the country is simply irrelevant to the current discussion.

You read to much into tenors and what you want to see, which seems to be racism. I think you're projecting.

In either case, I stand by my point that racially, pakeha is not a thing, and we do not want it to be a thing; maori race (wrt to voting/representation) should also not be a thing, but maori culture should be of course, and it should be something accesible for all kiwis to have a say on. Why do you seem so opposed to all this?

[oldrider]

many of us are also vexed that the party supports national. We (a majority of Maori Party voters)wanted them to go with Labour. I have not voted Māori Party for a couple of elections, and won't this time.

I think that atitude is a hangover from the brainwashing that Labour inflicted upon it's Maori supporters and is a naive mistake that is costing Maori dearly!

The Maori party did not support National ... they supported Maori by acting maturely and getting the best of the situation by pissing "inside" the tent of power!

When they were actually part of Labour and were supposedly in power as the government they got less out of it than they have in a short coalition with National.

IMHO Your attitude toward that does not line up with the rest of your summing up of the situation but then, as my wife tells me, sometimes I get things wrong! :whistle:

[oldrider]

Of course not, just that we don't need to racially orient the voting system to counter a minority of racist voters; the whole point of MMP is to cater to minority's putting their ideas forward, not other minorities putting them down.

You keep bringing it up like it somehow excuses racially oriented voting system, the point that there are racist people in the country is simply irrelevant to the current discussion.

You read to much into tenors and what you want to see, which seems to be racism. I think you're projecting.

In either case, I stand by my point that racially, pakeha is not a thing, and we do not want it to be a thing; maori race (wrt to voting/representation) should also not be a thing, but maori culture should be of course, and it should be something accesible for all kiwis to have a say on. Why do you seem so opposed to all this?

Pakeha simply means "others" .... anyone other than Maori .... anyone! ... irrispective of skin colour! :blip:

[bogan]

Pakeha simply means "others" .... anyone other than Maori .... anyone! ... irrispective of skin colour! :blip:

Nzr only others though init? I'd have no problem if we had our 'own' culture developed without maori input, but they are very much a part of nzr culture and such exclusionist terms thus irk me a little bit.

[Banditbandit]

Of course not, just that we don't need to racially orient the voting system to counter a minority of racist voters; the whole point of MMP is to cater to minority's putting their ideas forward, not other minorities putting them down.

You keep bringing it up like it somehow excuses racially oriented voting system, the point that there are racist people in the country is simply irrelevant to the current discussion.

You read to much into tenors and what you want to see, which seems to be racism. I think you're projecting.

In either case, I stand by my point that racially, pakeha is not a thing, and we do not want it to be a thing; maori race (wrt to voting/representation) should also not be a thing, but maori culture should be of course, and it should be something accesible for all kiwis to have a say on. Why do you seem so opposed to all this?

I think we are slightly misunderstanding each other - or maybe talking at cross purposes. I always talk about culture - never race. I'm not sure that we disagree as much as you (and probably me too) seem to think.


I think that atitude is a hangover from the brainwashing that Labour inflicted upon it's Maori supporters and is a naive mistake that is costing Maori dearly!

The Maori party did not support National ... they supported Maori by acting maturely and getting the best of the situation by pissing "inside" the tent of power!

When they were actually part of Labour and were supposedly in power as the government they got less out of it than they have in a short coalition with National.

IMHO Your attitude toward that does not line up with the rest of your summing up of the situation but then, as my wife tells me, sometimes I get things wrong! :whistle:

I agree that Labour shat on Māori and the Māori Party - I think the point would be that most of the supporters of the Māori Party "lean left" as it were and so the natural coalition is with Labour, not national. I do agree that there is some brainwashing here too .. but hey, that' the nature of the beast ... (And I repeat - I haven't voted Māori party for a while and I will not do so this time).


Nzr only others though init? I'd have no problem if we had our 'own' culture developed without maori input, but they are very much a part of nzr culture and such exclusionist terms thus irk me a little bit.

Hmmm .. in my experience I find Māori culture to be inclusive, but Pākehā culture to be exclusive.

[oldrider]

Hmmm .. in my experience I find Māori culture to be inclusive, but Pākehā culture to be exclusive.

Would that God the gift to give us, to see our selves as others see us! :scratch:

The word "Empathy" springs to mind. :shifty:

[bogan]

I think we are slightly misunderstanding each other - or maybe talking at cross purposes. I always talk about culture - never race. I'm not sure that we disagree as much as you (and probably me too) seem to think.



I agree that Labour shat on Māori and the Māori Party - I think the point would be that most of the supporters of the Māori Party "lean left" as it were and so the natural coalition is with Labour, not national. I do agree that there is some brainwashing here too .. but hey, that' the nature of the beast ... (And I repeat - I haven't voted Māori party for a while and I will not do so this time).



Hmmm .. in my experience I find Māori culture to be inclusive, but Pākehā culture to be exclusive.

Yet the voting system is set up to make race a relevant point, how can you not be completely against that?

Wrong, the definitions of both words explain exactly why that is. Just what is your idea of pakeha culture anyway?

[Banditbandit]

Yet the voting system is set up to make race a relevant point, how can you not be completely against that?

I see it slightly differently - I wouldsay the voting system allows for culture to be a relevant point ..


Wrong, the definitions of both words explain exactly why that is. Just what is your idea of pakeha culture anyway?

I get your point - but I didn't mean Māori as a race was inclusive, I meant Māori culture is inclusive. Māori culture makes room for people from other cultures to participate. I mean the word as a culture not a race. "Race" is a null concept.

My idea of Pākehā culture? That's huge ... but I see it all around me .. I see that Pākehā culture does not make room for other cultures to participate - it's "do it our way or not at all"

[MisterD]

I see that Pākehā culture does not make room for other cultures to participate - it's "do it our way or not at all"

Bollocks. There is no "Pakeha culture", because "Pakeha" is a nonsense concept. You can't define something as "sort of white-ish and not Maori" and expect to find a unifying culture within it.

I'm English, which is probably the dominant culture within the later settlers, and if there's one thing that characterises the English culture (apart from the drinking and fighting) it's the propensity to adopt aspects of other cultures and languages. It's been like that since the Angles and Saxons displaced the Celts and then fought the Vikings to a standstill.

[Banditbandit]

Bollocks. There is no "Pakeha culture", because "Pakeha" is a nonsense concept. You can't define something as "sort of white-ish and not Maori" and expect to find a unifying culture within it.

I'm English, which is probably the dominant culture within the later settlers, and if there's one thing that characterises the English culture (apart from the drinking and fighting) it's the propensity to adopt aspects of other cultures and languages. It's been like that since the Angles and Saxons displaced the Celts and then fought the Vikings to a standstill.

So .. the "English" culture that we have here, which, as you say, has adopted aspects from other cultures, is definitely a New Zealand-developed culture .. and what I would call Pākehā culture ... I'm sure there are many here who would not like to know they are part of "English" culture ..

And all cultures change and adapt - from contact with other cultures, from technological changes, from a variety of change agencies .. that' not unique to English culture ..

[MisterD]

So .. the "English" culture that we have here, which, as you say, has adopted aspects from other cultures, is definitely a New Zealand-developed culture .. and what I would call Pākehā culture ... I'm sure there are many here who would not like to know they are part of "English" culture ..

Nobody here is part of "English culture", but they're living in a country with a lot of English cultural influence.

English might be the dominant non-Maori culture, but we wouldn't have a wine industry without the Dallies, Otago wouldn't be the same place without Scots cultural influence...you can go on all day with that sort of stuff. There is certainly a still-evolving New Zealand culture, but that has Maori influences to - I know plenty of non-maori who happily use Maori words like "mana" or "kai moana", and it's not just try-hard bleeding heart muppets like Catherine Delahunty either.

[bogan]

I see it slightly differently - I wouldsay the voting system allows for culture to be a relevant point ..



I get your point - but I didn't mean Māori as a race was inclusive, I meant Māori culture is inclusive. Māori culture makes room for people from other cultures to participate. I mean the word as a culture not a race. "Race" is a null concept.

My idea of Pākehā culture? That's huge ... but I see it all around me .. I see that Pākehā culture does not make room for other cultures to participate - it's "do it our way or not at all"

If it is just for culture, why can't I vote on the maori electorate? Voting systems that do not discriminate by race also allow culture to be a relevant point. How does our discriminant system help in that respect?

Inclusive unless you want voting equality you mean?

That is a very racist concept, pakeha culture simply doesn't exist. Kiwi culture is all around us, foreign culture is too, you seem intent on picking out the bits you don't like to further justify your own racist beliefs. Name one thing about pakeha culture that is do it our way or not at all.

[Ocean1]

I see that Pākehā culture does not make room for other cultures to participate - it's "do it our way or not at all"

I think you'll find it's science and technology saying that. With perfect accuracy. Insisting there's a Maori way to supply either is patently absurd.

Maori health service? Yeah, whatever.

And if you still see Pakeha as exclusive then have a think about whether or not that might be a reflection on those who describe anyone not their own race as "outsiders".

[pzkpfw]

NZ First is rating high, here. Must be a few Ulysses members around.

[cowpoos]

errrr...I think we could drop the racial politics. They are just ridiculously filled with ignorance and a total lack of a considered opinion...or in short...based on a low IQ.

Every party is a group of like minded people. Supported by like minded voters.

Lets not pigeon hole them so we can point fingers at them. Shouldn't we be discussing policy, how that policy is to be funded....Election bribes or bullshit? Do we trust potential incumbents?

Why have the Conservatives jumped in the polls? Not just the poll here either.

Why do the Greens believe the are business friendly?

[mashman]

Bollocks. There is no "Pakeha culture", because "Pakeha" is a nonsense concept. You can't define something as "sort of white-ish and not Maori" and expect to find a unifying culture within it.

I'm English, which is probably the dominant culture within the later settlers, and if there's one thing that characterises the English culture (apart from the drinking and fighting) it's the propensity to adopt aspects of other cultures and languages, as long as they speak english.. It's been like that since the Angles and Saxons displaced the Celts and then fought the Vikings to a standstill.

The english have had no culture since Morris Dancing. The scots should make more of theirs imho, but hey, the english intervened. Vote for Scottish Independence ;) (and I would vote on that).

Wee modification to that last part.

[Brian d marge]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/08/27/6c9cce65bbe3ca70ec97a019c97db146.jpg

They get my vote . . .

On the snigger side see how soft they are trying to make bruiser colins

[idb]

Cunliffes' apology for being a man made my decision a little bit easier.

[avgas]

Yes - and we expect different things in terms of ability and attitude ... we are not just looking for a technically and scientifically competent doctor or dentist .. the scientifically technically competent doctors are a product of the western world .. we want more than that. There's a host of cultural issues that you take for granted and don't see - but we experience them because they are behaviours that are foreign to us ..

Did you know that Māori men who go to the doctor with urination problems are 25% LESS likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer than their Pākehā counterparts .. and then die from the disease ... plenty of other examples

Is it because the doctors don't care about us? Are they simply negligent when it comes to our health ? Are they racist ?
It could be a communications barrier. Old man has worked with all sorts as I grew up (he's a tunneler). He is the reason why I have a profound respect for Maori and Islanders.

They communicate differently, and doctors are shitty at picking it up. If you know what to look for - you know when a Maori fella is hurting.......but he won't tell you jack shit. Similar thing with Irish.

Everybody needs a different approach. But likewise there needs to be message out there to the Maori fella's that if they feel something is serious to actually speak out. It is better to risk your mana, not save face - and tell the doc the problem feels really serious.

The chances of the doc doing his job differently is slim. As the rest of us have had to learn the hard way.

[avgas]

Pakeha simply means "others" .... anyone other than Maori .... anyone! ... irrispective of skin colour! :blip:
Bit more than that actually.
From Pakehaka - and we are fucking magical!
(because we row our boats backwards)

[blue rider]

not that it means anything
but an interesting read anyways

http://www.horizonpoll.co.nz/attachments/docs/horizon-research-political-conduct-survey-repo.pdf

[gjm]

Just saw an excerpt of a 'debate' on TV... Channel surfing, and it was on.

Every time Cunliffe tried to say something, Key talked over him.

All Key could talk about was growing the economy by selling stuff overseas.

I didn't get to see if Cunliffe managed to riposte with any questions about international debt, run up by National at $450m per week. Sure, the economy has grown, and significantly, since National took power (on the back of unsustainable claims they would give tax cuts) but the really important figure, the GDP vs loan ratio, has also grown massively. Taking just that figure into account, NZ is worse off now than it was 5 years ago, despite the massive increase in export sales and GDP.

Unfortunately the national debt is now so great that there is no room for error. Current levels of GDP aren't high enough, and need to increase just to make repayments on the debt.

[mashman]

Just saw an excerpt of a 'debate' on TV... Channel surfing, and it was on.

Every time Cunliffe tried to say something, Key talked over him.

All Key could talk about was growing the economy by selling stuff overseas.

I didn't get to see if Cunliffe managed to riposte with any questions about international debt, run up by National at $450m per week. Sure, the economy has grown, and significantly, since National took power (on the back of unsustainable claims they would give tax cuts) but the really important figure, the GDP vs loan ratio, has also grown massively. Taking just that figure into account, NZ is worse off now than it was 5 years ago, despite the massive increase in export sales and GDP.

Unfortunately the national debt is now so great that there is no room for error. Current levels of GDP aren't high enough, and need to increase just to make repayments on the debt.

Should've gone with austerity :eek:

[bogan]

FML that was a terrible debate.

Here's an idea, turn off the plonker's mic who doesn't have the turn to speak; turn off both plonkers mics if the presenter is asking good questions. And get some goddamn fact checkers ffs. Jobs/unemployment up/down, land sales to who now. 2mins after each segment's ad break to just tally up the factual fauepaxs from before, pinch that time from the petty who is louder squabbling and you'd be away...
There were a number of really good questions asked, there was not a number of really good questions answered.

[Brian d marge]

Should've gone with austerity :eek:
Damn right

[avgas]

I didn't get to see if Cunliffe managed to riposte with any questions about international debt, run up by National at $450m per week. Sure, the economy has grown, and significantly, since National took power (on the back of unsustainable claims they would give tax cuts) but the really important figure, the GDP vs loan ratio, has also grown massively. Taking just that figure into account, NZ is worse off now than it was 5 years ago, despite the massive increase in export sales and GDP.

Unfortunately the national debt is now so great that there is no room for error. Current levels of GDP aren't high enough, and need to increase just to make repayments on the debt.
You won't. He is spineless.

As for the debt thing - ANY country that runs on debt, and doesn't have the guns to stop collection agencies.....is asking for trouble.

It scares me what the NZ books look like - I know why US can get away with it, who's gonna fuck with them? But NZ?
NZ will make Greece look like walk in the park.

[R650R]

As per the other thread... http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/roadtoll/road-safety-progress/ cross referenced against party/dominant MMP leader in govt at time.
Cut and pasted so party highlighted may or may not have been in govt in the intervening years between the national/labour start dates. Eg for first one National in power from 1960 but no changes till 61.



National 1961

The Department of Transport launches its first TV road safety campaign.

1965

All new cars and light trucks are required to be fitted with safety belts. 1967 The demerit points system is introduced.

1968

Road crash data is computerised for the first time

1969

The first �breathalyser� is introduced to test drivers� alcohol levels. The legal limit was set at 100mg per 100ml of blood. In itsfirst year of operation 2,928 drivers are tested with the breathalyser. Only 214 are sober enough to drive!


Labour 1973
Helmets are made compulsory for all motorcyclists and their passengers.
New Zealand suffers its highest ever road toll, 843 deaths in a single year. Our population at this time was just over 3 million.
December: in response to 'oil shock' open road speed limit decreased to 50mph (80km/h), from 55 mph (88 km/h) or 60 mph (97 km/h).


National 1978
The legal blood alcohol limit is lowered from 100 milligrams of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood to 80 milligrams per 100 millilitres.
Evidential breath testing is introduced.

1979
New Zealand introduces carless days in response to the international oil crisis. There is a subsequent, massive drop in road fatalities.
It becomes compulsory for children over the age of eight to wear a safety belt.

1983

Legislation is introduced that allows Courts to require repeat drink or drugged drivers to attend an Assessment Centre, and to be disqualified from holding or obtaining a licence.


Labour 1984

The Accident Investigation System is introduced. This allowed more detailed analysis of crash data. (oh the days of roads closed for several days after fatal crashes...)

1985

1 July: open-road speed limit increased to 100 km/h.

1987
New Zealand becomes the first country in the world to introduce a Graduated Driver Licensing System introduced, creating a staged process for gaining a full licence.
Hawk radars are introduced to catch speeding drivers. These can be used from moving patrol cars as well as stationary at the roadside.

National 1992

The Traffic Safety Service is merged with Police.

1993
Compulsory breath testing is introduced, allowing the police to breath test any driver for alcohol, anywhere, at any time.
Drink drive limits are reduced for under 20 year olds. Speed cameras are put into use.

1994
Cycle helmets are made compulsory.
Child restraints are made compulsory for 0-2 year olds.

1995
Child restraints are made compulsory for 3-5 year olds.
The National Road Safety Plan is launched. Using hard-hitting, high profile advertising and increased enforcement, it aims to reduce the road toll to 402 or less by the year 2001.

1996
New Zealand�s annual road toll is 515, the lowest number in 32 years.
New advertisements feature the slogan �If you drink and drive, you�re a bloody idiot.�

1997

Hidden speed cameras are trialled in several locations.

1998

The Crash Analysis System or CAS is launched. CAS holds information on crashes and maps their location.

1999
Vehicle impoundment for disqualified drivers introduced.
Road sided suspension introduced for a number of offences including driving at double the legal blood alcohol limit.


Labour The Crash Analysis System or CAS is launched. CAS holds information on crashes and maps their location.

1999
Vehicle impoundment for disqualified drivers introduced.
Road sided suspension introduced for a number of offences including driving at double the legal blood alcohol limit.

2002

Legislation is passed which requires all imported passenger cars to conform to an agreed, overseas frontal impact standard.

2003

Offences are created for street racing, wheel spinning and pouring slippery substances on the road to allow wheel spinning. Further change will be made in 2009 to help crack down on these offences.

The government launches the Road Safety to 2010 strategy, which aims to reduce the road toll to no more than 300 deaths by 2010.


National in 2008 walks into lowest New Zealand�s annual road toll at 366. The lowest annual total since 1959.

2009
The use of hand held mobile phones and texting while driving is banned.
It becomes compulsory for motorcycle and moped riders to switch on their headlamps during daylight hours (unless the vehicle was manufactured before 1 January 1980).
A law is introduced that allows police to conduct a roadside impairment test for drugged drivers.
A law is introduced that gives Police stronger powers to tackle illegal street racing and allows road controlling authorities to make bylaws prohibiting �cruising�.

2010

The government launches Safer Journeys: New Zealand�s Road Safety Strategy 2010-2020 following substantial public engagement on road safety issues. The strategy introduces a Safe System approach to New Zealand�s road safety effort, moving beyond an earlier focus on drivers to set actions for safe roads, safe speeds, safe vehicles and safe road use.

2011

A number of major changes are made as part of the implementation of the Safer Journeys strategy:
The driving age is raised from 15 to 16.
A zero alcohol limit is introduced for young drivers and repeat drink drivers.
Legislative changes are made to allow for introduction of alcohol interlocks.
Planned changes are confirmed for give way rules at intersections. These will come into force in 2012.
Changes are introduced for motorcycle and moped riders, including the introduction of a power to weight restriction on bikes for novices and a competency based training and assessment option for novices. Both measures will be implemented in 2012.

[oldrider]

The media are running the election now ... they are really upping the anti ... NZ will have the government that they tell us to have! :rolleyes:

[Brian d marge]

The media are running the election now ... they are really upping the anti ... NZ will have the government that they tell us to have! :rolleyes:
Or fairfax media tell us

[Stylo]

And don't include Winston Peters in the next Govt, heaven help us the older people still he think he's got some credibility. Can't work that one out ..

How many elections and promises has he made us now with zero tangible benefits ?

Sorry, the Gold card, not bad for twenty years work, my old man threw it in the bin not long after he got it

[R650R]

I did some numbers earlier based on this threads poll.
Looks like only way National can govern is with Winston... And this forum is obviously very to national, based on the ones that like to rant rather than lurk....

[oldrider]

I did some numbers earlier based on this threads poll.
Looks like only way National can govern is with Winston... And this forum is obviously very to national, based on the ones that like to rant rather than lurk....

The last thing in the world that media want is stable government .... no news (sensation) in that! :corn: Bullshit is their rice bowl! :sick: . :facepalm:

[Motu]

This site has always been pro National...and if another poll was taken I'd say anti MMP too.

[R650R]

This site has always been pro National...and if another poll was taken I'd say anti MMP too.

MMP, the best example ever of why letting people vote is dangerous (cause we had a referendum and voted that crap system in). And what has the 40 extra MP's bought us besides the entertainment factor, SFA!!!

[oldrider]

This site has always been pro National...and if another poll was taken I'd say anti MMP too.

Not so much pro national as anti left wing and yes I am anti MMP ... even more anti FPP and pro less politicians but with more accountability to the electorate! :yes:

[Motu]

Every National voter I come across is very anti MMP - they want black and white, just 2 choices and no funny stuff. If you don't follow the herd and vote main parties, it's good the have other choices and not abstain just because.

[MisterD]

If you don't follow the herd and vote main parties, it's good the have other choices and not abstain just because.

The problem with MMP is that the policies get decided by the politicians after everyone's voted, so there always an "out" for why the didn't do what they said they would when they were bidding for your vote.

[avgas]

Every National voter I come across is very anti MMP - they want black and white, just 2 choices and no funny stuff. If you don't follow the herd and vote main parties, it's good the have other choices and not abstain just because.
I just pissed in the ocean for you. Did it feel warmer over there?

[mashman]

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-an-election-is-coming-universal-peace-is-declared-and-the-foxes-have-a-sincere-interest-in-george-eliot-56827.jpg

Wolves and sheeple these days.

[Woodman]

MMP. Parties should have to declare who they are willing to team up with before the election.

[oldrider]

I just pissed in the ocean for you. Did it feel warmer over there?

Well the steam created a lot of fog on the coast and caused a bad traffic day!

Later in the day it was warmer, so thank you very much! .... It's the thought that counts ... apparently! :sunny:

[gjm]

A bizarre thing happened a couple of days ago.

I met Colin Craig. OK, in itself that's not actually bizarre. I'm sure other people have met him, too.

I am not a Tory. That said, I don't really have any political affiliation... Left, Right...? Who cares? It's what is done that counts.

I do intensely dislike the slimy and evasive Shonky John Key, sufficiently enough to ensure I will not vote National. However inadequate a reason that may be. I hear he is much better in person, but first impressions do tend to count, however much we know they perhaps shouldn't. (I'll not mention this again. :-) )

Colin Craig answered questions. And this is the bit that seemed odd. Straight answers. No attempt to distract, no attempt to sidetrack, no evasion. To the point. And he seemed genuinely interested in what I thought. Of course, like any politician he probably has to be a good actor, and an element of false sincerity must go with the job.

He's obviously not going to get a majority (well, it's extremely unlikely), but the parliamentary club is working overtime, and he is keen to work with whoever does hold sway. He will stand up, he will make a nuisance of himself if necessary; he will be heard. It was enough for me to look a little deeper at the policies and while I found (unsurprisingly) that I do not agree with all of them, I do agree with enough to suggest this may be a viable vote (for me).

For a Conservative party, they seem much more about New Zealand, much more 'national', than other parties. Whatever the other party names may suggest.

[Ocean1]

This site has always been pro National...

So why do they poll lower here than in the general population?

[Ocean1]

Every National voter I come across is very anti MMP - they want black and white, just 2 choices and no funny stuff. If you don't follow the herd and vote main parties, it's good the have other choices and not abstain just because.

It looks quite possible that labour may fail to remain one of those main parties.

And while not particularly happy with FPP it doesn't take much intelligence to see that there's serious problems with MMP. There possibly is with other systems too, but I think those problems with MMP completely overwhelm any advantage it might have had.


The problem with MMP is that the policies get decided by the politicians after everyone's voted, so there always an "out" for why the didn't do what they said they would when they were bidding for your vote.

Absolutely, there's a lot wrong with any system where you don't know what you're voting for.


Oh, and while I'm here: Binding referendums. Make them a fact of politics in NZ and many of the problems associated with our election system disappear. Sensible majority, though, say 60%. No limits on proposals, if someone wants to arsehole any particular policy or any other decision it should be fair game. It should be electronic and it should be this month, not at the govt's leisure, and it should be implemented soonest, no bullshit.

[Ocean1]

A bizarre thing happened a couple of days ago.

I met Colin Craig. OK, in itself that's not actually bizarre. I'm sure other people have met him, too.

I am not a Tory. That said, I don't really have any political affiliation... Left, Right...? Who cares? It's what is done that counts.

I do intensely dislike the slimy and evasive Shonky John Key, sufficiently enough to ensure I will not vote National. However inadequate a reason that may be. I hear he is much better in person, but first impressions do tend to count, however much we know they perhaps shouldn't. (I'll not mention this again. :-) )

Colin Craig answered questions. And this is the bit that seemed odd. Straight answers. No attempt to distract, no attempt to sidetrack, no evasion. To the point. And he seemed genuinely interested in what I thought. Of course, like any politician he probably has to be a good actor, and an element of false sincerity must go with the job.

He's obviously not going to get a majority (well, it's extremely unlikely), but the parliamentary club is working overtime, and he is keen to work with whoever does hold sway. He will stand up, he will make a nuisance of himself if necessary; he will be heard. It was enough for me to look a little deeper at the policies and while I found (unsurprisingly) that I do not agree with all of them, I do agree with enough to suggest this may be a viable vote (for me).

For a Conservative party, they seem much more about New Zealand, much more 'national', than other parties. Whatever the other party names may suggest.

Most people who have had much to do with politicians find the same thing, that they come across as concerned and interested in personal meetings. If you assume that's the real person and that the one people see on TV is a little distorted you can afford to give most of them the benefit of doubt: TV makes politicians look bad.

And while the conservitives aren't much like a more national national it's true that national has drifted left over the years. Their current incarnation could easily be a labour govt of the 60s or 70s.

[mstriumph]

...........................
Absolutely, there's a lot wrong with any system where you don't know what you're voting for.

Oh, and while I'm here: Binding referendums. Make them a fact of politics in NZ and many of the problems associated with our election system disappear. Sensible majority, though, say 60%. No limits on proposals, if someone wants to arsehole any particular policy or any other decision it should be fair game. It should be electronic and it should be this month, not at the govt's leisure, and it should be implemented soonest, no bullshit.

soooooo right! :cool: sooooooooooo sensible :rolleyes:
which is why it's soooooooo likely it'll never happen :(

why don't you run? seriously?

[mstriumph]

MMP, the best example ever of why letting people vote is dangerous (cause we had a referendum and voted that crap system in). And what has the 40 extra MP's bought us besides the entertainment factor, SFA!!!

that's what I used to like about Joh Bjelke-Petersen ... he was the epitome of everything a politician shouldn't be but, hey, you surely got your moneys-worth entertainment-wise - he was a HOOT! :nya:

oops
sorry
wrong country :(

[Ender EnZed]

Colin Craig answered questions. And this is the bit that seemed odd. Straight answers. No attempt to distract, no attempt to sidetrack, no evasion. To the point. And he seemed genuinely interested in what I thought. Of course, like any politician he probably has to be a good actor, and an element of false sincerity must go with the job.

What were some of the questions that you asked?

[Katman]

Oh, and while I'm here: Binding referendums. Make them a fact of politics in NZ and many of the problems associated with our election system disappear. Sensible majority, though, say 60%. No limits on proposals, if someone wants to arsehole any particular policy or any other decision it should be fair game. It should be electronic and it should be this month, not at the govt's leisure, and it should be implemented soonest, no bullshit.

See, I always knew that we'd find something we agreed on. (Although I think the majority should probably be closer to 70%).

[Katman]

(And in case anyone's been asleep this afternoon.....)

Ding dong, the witch is dead.

[Ocean1]

why don't you run? seriously?

What, and have the great unwashed presume to tell me how to do my job?

Besides, the pay's shit.

[Ocean1]

See, I always knew that we'd find something we agreed on. (Although I think the majority should probably be closer to 70%).

By the time the various interested parties had butchered the facts you'd never get 70%.

Maybe we should have 60% support to spend less and 70% support to spend more.

[Laava]

Well the steam created a lot of fog on the coast and caused a bad traffic day!

Later in the day it was warmer, so thank you very much! .... It's the thought that counts ... apparently! :sunny:

Hope you don't get acid rain in the evening!

[MisterD]

(And in case anyone's been asleep this afternoon.....)

Ding dong, the witch is dead.

I've seen no news out of New York to that effect.

[blue rider]

bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


Updated 8:50pm: Cameron Slater is laying a complaint with the Privacy Commissioner over John Key releasing an email which led to the resignation of Judith Collins.


bwhahahahahahahahahahahahaha

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/945653885-judith-collins-to-resign-

[mstriumph]

What, and have the great unwashed presume to tell me how to do my job?

Besides, the pay's shit.

excuses, excuses:rolleyes::bleh:

[oneblackflag]

A bizarre thing happened a couple of days ago.

I met Colin Craig........

I've looked into the Conservatives more lately. There is certainly more to them than the joke mainstream media makes them out to be. Some depth at the top of the list opposed to other National alternates. Some decent policy in my opinion.

[Brian d marge]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/video/news/video.cfm?c_id=1501138&gal_cid=1501138&gallery_id=145153


hahahahahaahaha the truth does haunt you sometimes


Stephen

[MisterD]

Some decent policy in my opinion.

It's a hodgepodge of populist sound bites with no cohesion. Tax-free threshold is a good idea, flatter tax is a good idea, but their combination of those two leaves a fucking great hole even before you throw in their extra spending promises.

http://www.act.org.nz/posts/conservatives-tax-promises-are-dishonest

Craig seems to fancy himself as the Kiwi Nigel Farage. He isn't, not by a long chalk.

[oldrider]

I've looked into the Conservatives more lately. There is certainly more to them than the joke mainstream media makes them out to be. Some depth at the top of the list opposed to other National alternates. Some decent policy in my opinion.

You are committing a social crime in New Zealand ... "thinking for yourself is definitely discouraged here"

The media will have you hacked drawn and quartered for that! :bye:

[oneblackflag]

It's a hodgepodge of populist sound bites with no cohesion. Tax-free threshold is a good idea, flatter tax is a good idea, but their combination of those two leaves a fucking great hole even before you throw in their extra spending promises.

http://www.act.org.nz/posts/conservatives-tax-promises-are-dishonest

Craig seems to fancy himself as the Kiwi Nigel Farage. He isn't, not by a long chalk.

I can't say I've seen any extra spending promises in their policy. More of promises to spend less.

There only seems to be Acts analysis of the tax proposal floating around, who knows how realistic that is; I'd need some more independent analysis, and the Conservatives responce to judge; as it stands it's an interesting point.

[Ocean1]

Tax-free threshold is a good idea, flatter tax is a good idea, but their combination of those two leaves a fucking great hole even before you throw in their extra spending promises.

Pffft. The day you have to cost policy and have your job depend on the results to become a government is the day politicians will be as honest as their private sector funding managers.

Although I note that ACT has at least supplied projections based on current treasury data. Pity they don't have much hope in a contest based on buying the votes of non-contributors.

[MisterD]

It's just maths, Whyte "shows his workings" in exam-speak

[oneblackflag]

You are committing a social crime in New Zealand ... "thinking for yourself is definitely discouraged here"

The media will have you hacked drawn and quartered for that! :bye:

Yes, I think mentioning the Conservatives should have the same effect :dodge:

[Ocean1]

It's just maths, Whyte "shows his workings" in exam-speak

And it's even slightly believable. Which was my point, most don't even bother, they know the one true faith will believe them and the rest won't.

And while my vote is for sale along with the rest it's not for sale to anyone who can't even be fucked making a believable promise let alone actually stick to it after election day.

[Woodman]

I don't vote labour, but do like their policy of no secondary tax on second jobs etc. Not that I work two jobs, but its a good policy cos a lot of people do.

[gjm]

Although I note that ACT has at least supplied projections based on current treasury data.

Labour tried that. Then found that the figures National had quoted were, errmm, 'misleading'. Key then jumped on National saying they couldn't do sums.

Another thing on TV this morning. Labour & National bods being interviewed. And the same modus operandi. Labour seem to be trying to present something, while National continually cite 'ridiculous', 'rubbish', 'not the case', 'not possible' and so on.

It is increasingly seeming the case that National have realised they cannot present a credible proposition, and are changing tack to discredit everyone else instead. They'll settle for getting in on a 'best of a bad lot' ticket, rather than actually offering any solutions.

[Madness]

I've looked into the Conservatives more lately. There is certainly more to them than the joke mainstream media makes them out to be. Some depth at the top of the list opposed to other National alternates. Some decent policy in my opinion.

A bunch of fucking wacko's if you ask me... stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10443905/Smacking-bans-suicide-link

[Ocean1]

It is increasingly seeming the case that National have realised they cannot present a credible proposition, and are changing tack to discredit everyone else instead.

They don't have to present anything but the results of their current policies and their history of doing in office what they said they would before elected, it's up to the opposition to propose believable alternatives AND show who's going to be expected to pay for them.

[SPman]

Labour tried that. Then found that the figures National had quoted were, errmm, 'misleading'. Key then jumped on National saying they couldn't do sums.

Another thing on TV this morning. Labour & National bods being interviewed. And the same modus operandi. Labour seem to be trying to present something, while National continually cite 'ridiculous', 'rubbish', 'not the case', 'not possible' and so on.

It is increasingly seeming the case that National have realised they cannot present a credible proposition, and are changing tack to discredit everyone else instead. They'll settle for getting in on a 'best of a bad lot' ticket, rather than actually offering any solutions.
National - a policy free zone these elections - if you don't say you'll do anything, when you get back in you can do whatever you like ander the "we didn't say we wouldn't do it" line.........
Can someone call a special sitting of parliament, then nuke the beehive when they're all in there? There'll be some "collateral damage", but, it's only Wellington.........

[oneblackflag]

A bunch of fucking wacko's if you ask me... stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10443905/Smacking-bans-suicide-link

Yep thats pretty fucked up.

[gjm]

Yep thats pretty fucked up.

Pff... That's nuffin.

National reckon the TPPA is in the best intersts of the man on the street. :rofl:

[HenryDorsetCase]

They don't have to present anything but the results of their current policies and their history of doing in office what they said they would before elected, it's up to the opposition to propose believable alternatives AND show who's going to be expected to pay for them.

My friends Russ Le Communista and his lovely Maori wife Metiria are doing just that. Its only you capitalist pigs that earn over $15 an hour that will pay. For the rest of us its FREE MONEY.

[Brian d marge]

Pff... That's nuffin.

National reckon the TPPA is in the best intersts of the man on the street. :rofl:
And labour will do the same

Strange that

[gjm]

And labour will do the same

Strange that

Sadly, that's probably right. And it's an example of how the party 'in power' doesn't actually get much say in long term policy - it's often decided behind the scenes.

The thing which really pisses me off (and this is a generalisation - not party-specific) is the apparent inability of anyone to learn from the mistakes of others. So many things that have so monumentally failed in other countries are now being touted as the way forward over here. Does no-one in government actually see the mess some of these things is going to make, or is it all about the 3-year plan?

[Ocean1]

My friends Russ Le Communista and his lovely Maori wife Metiria are doing just that. Its only you capitalist pigs that earn over $15 an hour that will pay. For the rest of us its FREE MONEY.

I've already had preliminary talks with my core clients about apportioning at least part of my usual remuneration as a special profit share arrangement. Well, the more important ones.

The brewery was particularly interested, although I've hit some resistance at 3 dozen an hour...

[Brian d marge]

I've already had preliminary talks with my core clients about apportioning at least part of my usual remuneration as a special profit share arrangement. Well, the more important ones.

The brewery was particularly interested, although I've hit some resistance at 3 dozen an hour...

The tax on that would be ..... If ya had stuck to mashys system .. you could have kept the 3 dozen

Stephen

[awa355]

Looks like the Internet party is starting to unravell from within already.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10448666/Beyer-takes-Harawira-to-task-over-Dotcom

[SPman]

The thing which really pisses me off (and this is a generalisation - not party-specific) is the apparent inability of anyone to learn from the mistakes of others. So many things that have so monumentally failed in other countries are now being touted as the way forward over here. Does no-one in government actually see the mess some of these things is going to make, or is it all about the 3-year plan? In NZ, it seems to be part of the "3 yrs behind everyone else" plan..........It's been that way for decades.

[oldrider]

In NZ, it seems to be part of the "3 yrs behind everyone else" plan..........It's been that way for decades.

He who pays the piper calls the tune ... the whole world is in debt so who's tune are they piping to and why? :corn:

[mashman]

He who pays the piper calls the tune ... the whole world is in debt so who's tune are they piping to and why? :corn:

Likely massively "underestimated", but

Global Debt Exceeds $100 Trillion as Governments Binge, BIS Says (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-09/global-debt-exceeds-100-trillion-as-governments-binge-bis-says.html)

:killingme that it's the govt that's doing all the borrowing. We've got a surplus innit ;).

"The $30 trillion increase from $70 trillion between mid-2007 and mid-2013 compares with a $3.86 trillion decline in the value of equities to $53.8 trillion in the same period, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.".

I'm guessing we borrowed it from aliems.

[Brian d marge]

classic

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10396287_604443209673425_39010308253434775_n.jpg?o h=114f5a9eb3b01b279b60441af797980c&oe=545DDB2A

[Brian d marge]

Likely massively "underestimated", but

Global Debt Exceeds $100 Trillion as Governments Binge, BIS Says (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-09/global-debt-exceeds-100-trillion-as-governments-binge-bis-says.html)

:killingme that it's the govt that's doing all the borrowing. We've got a surplus innit ;).

"The $30 trillion increase from $70 trillion between mid-2007 and mid-2013 compares with a $3.86 trillion decline in the value of equities to $53.8 trillion in the same period, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.".

I'm guessing we borrowed it from aliems.

its interesting how they could pump money into the economy with out inflation going skywards , and the suppression of the bond rates. Dodgy dealings done dirt cheap hahahahahahaaaa

Stephen

[SPman]

Capitalism gets into deep trouble when the price of financial assets becomes completely disconnected from economic reality and common sense. What ensues is rampant speculation in which financial gamblers careen from one hot money play to the next, leaving the financial system distorted and unstable—a proverbial train wreck waiting to happen.

That’s where we are now.....

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-01/europes-fantastic-bond-bubble-how-central-banks-have-unleashed-mindless-speculation

Looks like Europe is starting to implode - deflation is rife in France, Italy, Portugal..Germany is about the only country keeping it's nose above financial water....yet the stock markets high rarely been higher....?

More Headlines......

Asian Property Prices Are Falling "As If There's A Global Financial Crisis"...http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-01/asian-property-prices-are-falling-if-theres-global-financial-crisis

CRASH2: the roadsigns become so frequent, people can’t see them for looking....http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/crash2-the-roadsigns-become-so-frequent-people-cant-see-them-for-looking/

USDJPY (And Nikkei) Surge Higher as Japanese Car Sales Collapse To 3-Year Lows....http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-01/usdjpy-and-nikkei-surge-higher-japanese-car-sales-collapse-3-year-lows (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-01/usdjpy-and-nikkei-surge-higher-japanese-car-sales-collapse-3-year-lows)

All looking like business as usual....

If I were National, I don't think I'd want to win......just take the money (oops - already done that) and run.......

[MisterD]

Looks like Europe is starting to implode - deflation is rife in France, Italy, Portugal..Germany is about the only country keeping it's nose above financial water....yet the stock markets high rarely been higher....?


None of which is any surprise to anyone who listens to people that know what they're talking about, like Peter Schiff. Printing money out of thin air, 0% interest rates, resulting in a Government bubble to mask the underlying problems.

On the bright side, we haven't had a Labour or Green finance minister printing money to try to race the $US to the bottom and our currency is about as commodity-backed as it gets in the modern world (except it's milk rather than gold) so if we don't do anything silly we'll be ok down here. I've said it before, James Cameron didn't buy half the Wairarapa just because he likes making films here, buying productive land in a stable country like NZ is investment advice straight out of Peter Schiff's books.

[Banditbandit]

Interesting - On this poll as it currently is we would have a Labour-lead Government - (hang about while I work out the figures again )

[Banditbandit]

Interesting - On this poll as it currently is we would have a New Government - made up of Labour, the Greens, NZFirst, Maori party.

At 13.73%, 15.69%, 16.67% and 4.9 %, that's a total of 50.99% of the vote. Add the Mana/Internet party's 10.78% (If the main parties were that stupid) and that's more than 60% of the vote ..

Could be an interesting argument about who leads this as Labour only comes in third ..

The Nats, Act and Maori party only come to 49.02% ...

So - KBers are essentially left-leaning ... just like the rest of the country ..

[MisterD]

So - KBers are essentially left-leaning ... just like the National Party ..

Fixed it etc.

[Banditbandit]

Fixed it etc.

:clap: :rofl: :killingme :clap:

Only on the world stage - not in Godzone .. and DonKey would have a heart attack at the thought, while Slateroil would crucify you ..

[MisterD]

and DonKey would have a heart attack at the thought,

The man who, in opposition, called Working for Families "communinism by stealth" and has, in government, done nothing to unravel it and is adding more "free" doctors visits and government subsidies for homebuyers this time around? I don't think even he believes that there's any "right" component to his claimed "centre-right".

ACT are the only remotely right-wing party in this country.

[oldrider]

ACT are the only remotely right-wing party in this country.

True and they only just make it over the line! :rolleyes:

[mashman]

Key firms up tax cuts policy (https://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/key-firms-tax-cuts-policy-160349445.html)... bribery for the stupid of the general public.

[gjm]

Key firms up tax cuts policy (https://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/key-firms-tax-cuts-policy-160349445.html)... bribery for the stupid of the general public.

Fuck.

That's how they got in last time.

[MisterD]

bribery for the stupid of the general public.

At least it's "bribery" with the idea of getting to keep your own money, rather than bribery with the idea of getting given someone elses. :rolleyes:

[mashman]

Fuck.

That's how they got in last time.

:rofl: Fool me once......


At least it's "bribery" with the idea of getting to keep your own money, rather than bribery with the idea of getting given someone elses. :rolleyes:

Like I said, for the stupid of the general public :shifty:

[oldrider]

Key firms up tax cuts policy (https://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/key-firms-tax-cuts-policy-160349445.html)... bribery for the stupid of the general public.

Like Helen Clarks bribes to the so called leaders of tomorrow! (stupid is a bit subjective in this isn't it)


Fuck.

That's how they got in last time.

That's generally how they all get in ... it's getting "in" that is important to them!


At least it's "bribery" with the idea of getting to keep your own money, rather than bribery with the idea of getting given someone elses. :rolleyes:

True! ... Stealing less of the electorates private money so that they can decide what to spend it on themselves sounds like good government to me!

They wouldn't have to steal any if they changed the monetary system to "social credit" and stopped being strangled by this "social debt" system!

[MisterD]

True! ... Stealing less of the electorates private money so that they can decide what to spend it on themselves sounds like good government to me!

First thing I've heard Key say in ages that actually made me think he's got a right wing instinct buried somewhere (from last night's evisceration of Cunliffe): "Kiwis work hard for their money, they can spend it better than we can."

[oldrider]

First thing I've heard Key say in ages that actually made me think he's got a right wing instinct buried somewhere (from last night's evisceration of Cunliffe): "Kiwis work hard for their money, they can spend it better than we can."

Key has to float like a butterfly sting like a bee because New Zealand is a socialist country by default! :sick: (hangup from religious colonisation)

The butterfly has to appeal to the left wing voters to stay in power and the bee enacts right wing policy that keeps the country moving forward on an even keel! :shifty:

[SPman]

So....less tax....more money in the individuals pocket but......who pays for the hospitals, schools, police, defense forces, energy supplies....... infrastructure that keeps the country a viable, functioning proposition as opposed to a neanderthal subsistence society. (unfair on Neanderthals, who, apparently, had a very coherent society on a small scale, but....)
Everyone is quite happy to use all this, indeed, expect it as of right and a given to their normal everyday living, but no one seems to want to pay for any of it.......:rolleyes:.

[MisterD]

Everyone is quite happy to use all this, indeed, expect it as of right and a given to their normal everyday living, but no one seems to want to pay for any of it.......:rolleyes:.

Speak for yourself. I'm quite happy to pay for what I use and stop subsidising what other people think is important.

Little known fact - Right leaning people give more to charity than others...

[mashman]

So....less tax....more money in the individuals pocket but......who pays for the hospitals, schools, police, defense forces, energy supplies....... infrastructure that keeps the country a viable, functioning proposition as opposed to a neanderthal subsistence society. (unfair on Neanderthals, who, apparently, had a very coherent society on a small scale, but....)
Everyone is quite happy to use all this, indeed, expect it as of right and a given to their normal everyday living, but no one seems to want to pay for any of it.......:rolleyes:.

Fear and jealousy smeared in entitlement complex. They do not deserve because I decide that they do not deserve. Pathetic wankers.

[mashman]

Little known fact - Right leaning people give more to charity than others...

You mean right leaning people perpetuate the status quo and misery of those by far less fortunate than themselves in order to bolster their fragile ego's and crow how generous they are. Myopic at best.

The Charitable Industrial Complex (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/opinion/the-charitable-industrial-complex.html?_r=0)

[MisterD]

You mean right leaning people perpetuate the status quo and misery of those by far less fortunate than themselves in order to bolster their fragile ego's and crow how generous they are. Myopic at best.


No, I mean left leaning types crow about how generous and altruistic they are because they vote for politicians to give other peoples' money to those less fortunate.

Politicians who have a vested interest in keeping that dependent block voting for continued handouts.

[gjm]

So....less tax....more money in the individuals pocket but......who pays for the hospitals, schools, police, defense forces, energy supplies....... infrastructure that keeps the country a viable, functioning proposition as opposed to a neanderthal subsistence society. (unfair on Neanderthals, who, apparently, had a very coherent society on a small scale, but....)
Everyone is quite happy to use all this, indeed, expect it as of right and a given to their normal everyday living, but no one seems to want to pay for any of it.......:rolleyes:.

That is why National borrowed $450m a week after they got in last time. The three year-on-year tax cuts they promised were untenable before the election, but they went ahead with two of them anyway, plunging the country into massive debt; that debt currently sits at around $15000 for every single person living here. (I wonder how that figure compares to other countries?)

The measure of financial stability is the ability to repay a debt. That's often judged by the GDP:debt ratio.

Here's GDP:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/new-zealand-gdp.png?s=wgdpnewz

And this is what National refer to when they say their policies are working.

Total NZ debt to end of 2012 is shown here:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/smashdracs/NZDEBT_zpsb1d16e48.png

This is a little unfair as the 3rd quarter of 2011 saw the highest actual debt in New Zealand history, and it has come down since then, even if only by a (comparatively) tiny amount.

Regardless, GDP has almost doubled, but debt has increased by at least 2.5x. That doesn't sound like an economic step forward, or an example of good fiscal policy. (But I'm not an economist.)

Internationally, NZ is asset-weak, and actually worse in this regard than Greece. This is shown by a high leverage ratio (a ratio of external liabilities - including debt - to external assets). Worldwide, we're not as bad off as Poland, Turkey, the Soviet Union and.... That's about it.

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/economy/mei/jan13/03.htm/mei-jan13-06.gif

However, and back to the 'who will you vote for?' topic, life to most of us is not about international economics. It is about quality, safety and happiness. If people are happy under National (and National are telling them that they are) then they will likely vote National. Actually, this has changed somewhat and National are now saying that you'd be more unhappy with another party holding power, which really isn't the same thing at all.

[buggerit]

Speak for yourself. I'm quite happy to pay for what I use and stop subsidising what other people think is important.

Little known fact - Right leaning people give more to charity than others...

Interesting- have you got any hard facts and figures u can share?

[MisterD]

Interesting- have you got any hard facts and figures u can share?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html

A wee bit dated, but I'm sure the cited sources could be updated if you wanted to.

[Banditbandit]

Little known fact - Right leaning people give more to charity than others...


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html

A wee bit dated, but I'm sure the cited sources could be updated if you wanted to.

I wonder what the comparative figure for volunteering for charity work is .. I suspect that right wing leaners GIVE more to charity and left leaners DO more for charity...

[oldrider]

I wonder what the comparative figure for volunteering for charity work is .. I suspect that right wing leaners GIVE more to charity and left leaners DO more for charity...

I suspect that you are correct in your assumption ... people give what comes easiest to them! :niceone: Don't think left or right even comes into it! :no:

[oldrider]

That is why National borrowed $450m a week after they got in last time. The three year-on-year tax cuts they promised were untenable before the election, but they went ahead with two of them anyway, plunging the country into massive debt; that debt currently sits at around $15000 for every single person living here. (I wonder how that figure compares to other countries?)

The measure of financial stability is the ability to repay a debt. That's often judged by the GDP:debt ratio.

Here's GDP:



Now put up the comparitive Gross national income for the same period and you will see the difference is the amount of new money created as a debt for that period!

[Banditbandit]

You mean this??? Pretty static really, but overall trending down

http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/images/key-graphs/Fig2_large.jpg


It's the Resevere Bank's own figures ...

http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/statistics/key_graphs/real_gdp/

What is interesting is the drop in GDP following the election of National-led as the Government in 1990 ...

The upswing following the election of Labour in 1999 ... (followed by a slower decline ... and then a couple of wild swings ..)

The major drop in 08.09 under a national Government ...

The real highs have been under a Labour led Government and the real lows under National .. What was that about "working for New Zealand" ???

[mashman]

No, I mean left leaning types crow about how generous and altruistic they are because they vote for politicians to give other peoples' money to those less fortunate.

Politicians who have a vested interest in keeping that dependent block voting for continued handouts.

To start with, it's not your money. You do remember Cyprus right? You have heard of the OBR haven't you? That aside. That, other people's money, is also the left wings to do with as they choose, but that's only cheap if you share those costs across the working population, so we're either all in or all out. If we're all out, how do you think society will react?

It keeps them in a job and gives you something to vote for. Rather that than an all out free for all though, coz that won't end well.

[mashman]

You mean this??? Pretty static really, but overall trending down

http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/images/key-graphs/Fig2_large.jpg


It's the Resevere Bank's own figures ...

http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/statistics/key_graphs/real_gdp/

What is interesting is the drop in GDP following the election of National-led as the Government in 1990 ...

The upswing following the election of Labour in 1999 ... (followed by a slower decline ... and then a couple of wild swings ..)

The major drop in 08.09 under a national Government ...

The real highs have been under a Labour led Government and the real lows under National .. What was that about "working for New Zealand" ???

The right get the money at low interest rates and borrow for the left to spend when times are good ;)

[MisterD]

You mean this??? Pretty static really, but overall trending down

Erm...that's % change against time, so mostly above the line is GDP mostly increasing.

(Notwithstanding that GDP is a bollocks measure, including as it does, government spending.)

[MisterD]

To start with, it's not your money.

How about, fuck off. What I receive for the application of my skills and my time, is my money, not yours or anyone elses.

[oldrider]

You mean this???

Well no, I meant GDI (Gross Domestic Income) against GDP (Gross Domestic Product) for the same period, the difference is the basis and ratio 9/1 for new money!

The only purpose of production is consumption, there is never enough income generated to consume production, therefore the difference has to be created.

That money is social money and can be created as credit or an interest bearing debt ... the world insists on social debt and governments borrow it from the banks!

The same can be done by the various governments by creating the money themselves as a social credit without the crippling interest bearing debt!

So why are all the countries of the world in debt to the private commercial banks when they could simply create the new money themselves and lend it to the banks?

I thought it would be interesting to show the GDI along with the GDP for the same period and look at the difference! :scratch:

[mashman]

How about, fuck off. What I receive for the application of my skills and my time, is my money, not yours or anyone elses.

Ok wrong end of the stick boy, it's your money, noone can take it off you.......... except the govt. I'll assume you don't pay tax then.

[Ocean1]

So....less tax....more money in the individuals pocket but......who pays for the hospitals, schools, police, defense forces, energy supplies....... infrastructure that keeps the country a viable, functioning proposition as opposed to a neanderthal subsistence society. (unfair on Neanderthals, who, apparently, had a very coherent society on a small scale, but....)
Everyone is quite happy to use all this, indeed, expect it as of right and a given to their normal everyday living, but no one seems to want to pay for any of it.......:rolleyes:.

I think it's more about the price than the actual product. Any public service is by default a monopoly and it's generally accepted that monopolies don't often produce the value for expenditure that providers exposed to competitive pressure do.

There's probably a good compromise, there somewhere, but discussions like that get completely buried under angry rhetoric defending entrenched ideological positions.

3.......2.......1......

[mashman]

I think it's more about the price than the actual product. Any public service is by default a monopoly and it's generally accepted that monopolies don't often produce the value for expenditure that providers exposed to competitive pressure do.

There's probably a good compromise, there somewhere, but discussions like that get completely buried under angry rhetoric defending entrenched ideological positions.

3.......2.......1......

:laugh: competition keeps the market honest.

Fortunately not everyone isn't so open minded that they're blinded by the rhetoric and so ignore the intent. I believe a catchy nickname and a nice smile helps though.

Meanwhile some light entertainment


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-91J0m2CCBo

[Brian d marge]

I think it's more about the price than the actual product. Any public service is by default a monopoly and it's generally accepted that monopolies don't often produce the value for expenditure that providers exposed to competitive pressure do.

There's probably a good compromise, there somewhere, but discussions like that get completely buried under angry rhetoric defending entrenched ideological positions.

3.......2.......1......
Public services are indeed a monopoly

A controlled one

Stephen

Ps , unfortuantly controlled by the uncontrolled greedy lunatics

[yokel]

governments are like a fire brigade full of arsonists.
they should stick to governing people and not trying to fucking help them.

I see the KB poll has labour at 13.73%, good fucking job

[oldrider]

governments ... they should stick to governing.

True but just what are the core activities of government today? ... How many people should it require to complete the task?

When you ask your self these questions it doesn't take long to realise that we are vastly over governed in New Zealand! ... Why is that? :confused:

[mashman]

Rich Osmaston - Nelson.
Glen Timms - Northland.
Jordan Osmaston - Auckland Central.
Ted Howard - Kaikoura.
Laurence Boomert - West Coast/t

MFP, well, independent candidates that could use a protest vote or a genuine vote. Just sayin.

[Brian d marge]

Rich Osmaston - Nelson.
Glen Timms - Northland.
Jordan Osmaston - Auckland Central.
Ted Howard - Kaikoura.
Laurence Boomert - West Coast/t

MFP, well, independent candidates that could use a protest vote or a genuine vote. Just sayin.
Same name

Not voting for imbreds are we

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Sacking Bruiser Collins , Im starting to think might have actually been a plan stan........

She steps down ....

Then goes off , like a seemingly loose cannon , actually fed the party line

cunlife is a moron for example


Then National get back in and lo and behold she is back in the feed trough .......


Stephen

[SPman]

I think it's more about the price than the actual product. Any public service is by default a monopoly and it's generally accepted that monopolies don't often produce the value for expenditure that providers exposed to competitive pressure do.

There's probably a good compromise, there somewhere, but discussions like that get completely buried under angry rhetoric defending entrenched ideological positions.

3.......2.......1......I actually agree with you. I may come across to some as a screaming lefty but taint neccessarily so. The whole concept of left/right is crap anyway.Some things I think could be taken as screaming autocratic right wing loony (by those who measure things that way), but, that's just me.
Anyway - governments and government bodies, like all large corporates tend to become clogged up like arteries and tend to lose sight of what they are meant to be doing, often under government direction...They can become little fiefdoms given over to personal egoes. They need a tailored clean out, from time to time a little bloodshed perhaps, to clear the air....people become too entrenched when they become too comfortable......

[yokel]

True but just what are the core activities of government today? ... How many people should it require to complete the task?

When you ask your self these questions it doesn't take long to realise that we are vastly over governed in New Zealand! ... Why is that? :confused:

we are over governed because it hands out money, people like free money.
the whole system is fucked, imagine if your boss/supervisor was voted in by the employees?

people now have a government needs to fix/help me out entitlement attitude,

[MisterD]

I'll assume you don't pay tax then.

I'm not stupid enough to argue with people with guns.

[oldrider]

we are over governed because it hands out money, people like free money.
the whole system is fucked, imagine if your boss/supervisor was voted in by the employees?

people now have a government needs to fix/help me out entitlement attitude,

People with no money can't buy goods and services .. trade diminishes, shops close, people are out of work!

Subsidise by paying beneficiaries funds to enable consumption ... it helps more than just the beneficiaries themselves .. it helps business, trade, employment, etc!

We are all therefore benificiaries by default but it is easier to blame the bottom feeders than to accept some responsibility ourselves! :mellow:

[bogan]

People with no money can't buy goods and services .. trade diminishes, shops close, people are out of work!

Subsidise by paying beneficiaries funds to enable consumption ... it helps more than just the beneficiaries themselves .. it helps business, trade, employment, etc!

We are all therefore benificiaries by default but it is easier to blame the bottom feeders than to accept some responsibility ourselves! :mellow:

Or we could just light lots of things on fire and employ more firefighters...

Consumption just for consumptions sake is not a good thing.

[mashman]

I'm not stupid enough to argue with people with guns.

Pussy....... anyhoo, who's got guns? It's only taxation.

[yokel]

Or we could just light lots of things on fire and employ more firefighters...

Consumption just for consumptions sake is not a good thing.

Dam straight, turn off the benefits let the economy that's built on a foundation of bullshit collapse and start again

[oldrider]

Or we could just light lots of things on fire and employ more firefighters...

Consumption just for consumptions sake is not a good thing.

Like nature did for us in Christchurch?


Dam straight, turn off the benefits let the economy that's built on a foundation of bullshit collapse and start again

True and while I agree in principle history from Christchurch has shown us that the left leaners walk backwards to Christmas so it will be a slow and bumpy journey!

Maybe life is nothing more than a journey maybe the destination will never be reached. :oi-grr: Maybe we should just focus on making the ride as comfortable as we can!

[mashman]

http://michaeljournal.org/juvdm/cartoons-cs/0024-The-Running-Horses-w.jpg

... and people still choose to vote :scratch:

[oldrider]

The above cartoon really tells it as it is and the only alternative offering for NZ this election is here: http://www.democrats.org.nz/ (I have no connection to them)

They are the only party offering resistance to the current monetary stranglehold on democracy here! :yes:

[Banditbandit]

The 2014 election was too close to call. Neither John Key nor David Cunliffe had enough votes to win. There was much talk about ballot recounting, court challenges, etc., but after much debate, week-long ice fishing competition seemed the sportsman like way, and a good kiwi way, to settle things. The candidate who caught the most fish at the end of the week would win the election.

After much back and forth discussion, it was decided that the contest would take place in a remote frozen lake in the lower south island high country...

There were to be no observers present, and both men were to be sent out separately on this isolated lake and return at 5 P.M.. with their catch for counting and verification by a team of neutral parties.

At the end of the first day, John Key returned to the starting line, and he had 10. Soon, David Cunliffe returned and had no fish. Everyone assumed he was just having a bad day or something and hopefully, he would catch up the next day.

At the end of the 2nd day John Key came in with 20 fish, and David came in again with none.

That evening the Labour caucus got together secretly with David and said, "We think that John Key and National are cheating so tomorrow doesn't bother fishing. Just spy on him, and see just how he is cheating.'

The next night (after John returns with 50 fish), the Labour caucus got together for the report of how the Nationals were cheating.

David said, "You are not going to believe this . . . he's cutting holes in the ice."


(Not original - got it from a mate)

[oldrider]

Nice one BB :lol:

[mashman]

The above cartoon really tells it as it is and the only alternative offering for NZ this election is here: http://www.democrats.org.nz/

They are the only party offering resistance to the current monetary stranglehold on democracy here! :yes:

At the moment... gimmee a year or two ;).

[oldrider]

At the moment... gimmee a year or two ;).

I don't disagree with you but if they can't be convinced to simply make a change to the existing system how the hell are they going to change it all together?

The powers that be will not let go of their excellent freebie without one "hell of a struggle" ... that's why it doesn't happen now!

... Nobody has the balls to make it happen! ... We can make it to outer space and back but we can't run a proper national money system FFS! .. Gimmie strength! :rolleyes:

[Brian d marge]

Aint that the truth . . .someoneneeds to call a spade a spade

[mashman]

I don't disagree with you but if they can't be convinced to simply make a change to the existing system how the hell are they going to change it all together?

The powers that be will not let go of their excellent freebie without one "hell of a struggle" ... that's why it doesn't happen now!

... Nobody has the balls to make it happen! ... We can make it to outer space and back but we can't run a proper national money system FFS! .. Gimmie strength! :rolleyes:

By divorcing every man woman and child in this country from the system and the affect hat the system has on their behaviour. It's a decision away. I've made my decision and believe that not only is it possible, it'll make THE change that is required to render every other consideration moot. The human endeavor is there, the money isn't... and even when it is it's nowhere near where it needs to be for one reason or another, primarily subsidising jobs that aren't really required in the business process, bodies that could go towards bolstering health and education.

They can't stop this, because it will be the will of a people merely exercising their democratic vote. It doesn't happen now, because the people have never been asked. They can't stop this, because I see it as an inevitability and quite likely within 10 years, quite possibly 5 years and who knows, perhaps in 3 years time once a few more people have been asked.

It's happening right now, there are R.B.E. centric political parties popping up around the globe John. lol... space was great business once upon a time. Now it's a militarised zone. Nothing works better than money, so use nothing instead :D

[mashman]

Aint that the truth . . .someoneneeds to call a spade a spade

Happy to. Just need funding :laugh:

[bluninja]

Aint that the truth . . .someoneneeds to call a spade a spade


Happy to. Just need funding :laugh:

So if the hammer is $1,000,000 how much is a spade?

[mashman]

So if the hammer is $1,000,000 how much is a spade?

As much as you like, same as the hammer i.e. the value that humans decide it is worth in the context of their economy. Tricky to grasp, but I have hopes for ya.

[bluninja]

As much as you like, same as the hammer i.e. the value that humans decide it is worth in the context of their economy. Tricky to grasp, but I have hopes for ya.

I'd pay more for a tool that is easier to grasp :facepalm:

[mashman]

I'd pay more for a tool that is easier to grasp :facepalm:

Well if it takes your hand off the dick on your head, then I reckon we'll both be winners. Couldn't resists old habits n all :D. The idea is that you won't have to grasp or pay anything at all. It matters not what a hammer costs in the grand scale of things, unless, that is, you decide to value them as you would value diamonds. Why is a nice diamond so expensive as they're dug up by slave labor? Perhaps they're expensive because the spades cost a fortune.

[Maha]

The Flav' last night almost outdone Bruce Beetham's (Soc Cred) line from years ago, he was one ''Ya Know'' short of the record answering ''Ya know Ya never know''.
Brucey mastered owned it by saying ''Well Ya Know Ya Never Know Ya Know''

[oldrider]

By divorcing every man woman and child in this country from the system and the affect hat the system has on their behaviour. It's a decision away. I've made my decision and believe that not only is it possible, it'll make THE change that is required to render every other consideration moot. The human endeavor is there, the money isn't... and even when it is it's nowhere near where it needs to be for one reason or another, primarily subsidising jobs that aren't really required in the business process, bodies that could go towards bolstering health and education.

They can't stop this, because it will be the will of a people merely exercising their democratic vote. It doesn't happen now, because the people have never been asked. They can't stop this, because I see it as an inevitability and quite likely within 10 years, quite possibly 5 years and who knows, perhaps in 3 years time once a few more people have been asked.

It's happening right now, there are R.B.E. centric political parties popping up around the globe John. lol... space was great business once upon a time. Now it's a militarised zone. Nothing works better than money, so use nothing instead :D

Not trying to rain on your parade Gordon but I first read about the problem and the solution when I was 21 (1960) and was sure that it would be no time at all until the country woke up but alas we are very little further ahead!

The major obstacles are the power of the beneficiaries of the financial malady and the power of the media, (who are puppets of the former) the stupidity or dishonesty of the political incumbents at any given time and the apathy of the people who most need the change, the citizens!

The same applies to any country in the "free" democratic world! :facepalm:

I have not given up hope and neither should you or anyone else but you have to face reality of the size of the beast you are up against! :shifty:

[mashman]

Not trying to rain on your parade Gordon but I first read about the problem and the solution when I was 21 (1960) and was sure that it would be no time at all until the country woke up but alas we are very little further ahead!

The major obstacles are the power of the beneficiaries of the financial malady and the power of the media, (who are puppets of the former) the stupidity or dishonesty of the political incumbents at any given time and the apathy of the people who most need the change, the citizens!

The same applies to any country in the "free" democratic world! :facepalm:

I have not given up hope and neither should you or anyone else but you have to face reality of the size of the beast you are up against! :shifty:

No rain my friend, I'm fully aware of how crazy it sounds and that people made noises about this and that back yonder when. Some formed organisations that survive to this day and that's just as well by the looks of things. So no offence taken in the slightest. However, life was slightly different back then and I think the apathy that has developed over time is due to there being no alternative. Time will tell eh.

They're all ruled using money. Remember that image? Remove the money and there's no hold over the media.

One country at a time eh :laugh:

[bluninja]

They're all ruled using money. Remember that image? Remove the money and there's no hold over the media.

One country at a time eh :laugh:

If Scotland vote for independence they could be the first as they won't have their own currency :eek5:

[Brian d marge]

By divorcing every man woman and child in this country from the system and the affect hat the system has on their behaviour. It's a decision away. I've made my decision and believe that not only is it possible, it'll make THE change that is required to render every other consideration moot. The human endeavor is there, the money isn't... and even when it is it's nowhere near where it needs to be for one reason or another, primarily subsidising jobs that aren't really required in the business process, bodies that could go towards bolstering health and education.

They can't stop this, because it will be the will of a people merely exercising their democratic vote. It doesn't happen now, because the people have never been asked. They can't stop this, because I see it as an inevitability and quite likely within 10 years, quite possibly 5 years and who knows, perhaps in 3 years time once a few more people have been asked.

It's happening right now, there are R.B.E. centric political parties popping up around the globe John. lol... space was great business once upon a time. Now it's a militarised zone. Nothing works better than money, so use nothing instead :D
I doubt we could move way from a "money" system ( Money not currency)
We may be able to partially move away. Local communities supplying most of their needs, probably even happens now in some of the remote, smaller places in nz.
Certainly we have to put a stop to wealth transfer by overseas interests, by this I mean interests that do not share NZ core values such as large chinese investors.
I think if people start providing for themselves , and this is happening! And sharing with the local community through local institutions , schools church , pub etc . The move away from the debt will become stronger
I read about a man ( Stuff.co.nz this morning ), who quote" works like an animal" just to stay afloat , in the next sentence it was revealed that 1/2 his 2000 dollars a week went in to the roof over his head.
That is just wrong. If we as a community adress the house and remove his 1000 a week yoke , imagine how much improve the family would be
I wonder how that yoke was imposed.
Solution; how about houses of modest size owed by the state at a retal of 1/3 the minimum wage, ( in mixed areas , ie in both rich and poor areas hahahaha that would piss a few people off!)

As for the cost of the spade, we all know whats going on, So WHY doesnt one of the talking heads just stand up and say the current economic model imposed on nz is not working and we need to do a, b, and c to reclaim a society for decent people.
I mean even sharp 7 did a story on fiat money.....there is hope

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

If Scotland vote for independence they could be the first as they won't have their own currency :eek5:
Theres a small voice in me saying it wont happen . I hope it does and joins the BRICS bank system ...but there is still an awful lot of oil still there ......dot dot dot ......

Stephen

[mashman]

If Scotland vote for independence they could be the first as they won't have their own currency :eek5:

The last I saw the Scots had their own currency (however between NAB and the demise of RBS that may not be true today?), fuckin hard to exchange in england at times though. Seriously. I hope they vote yes and see where it goes from there. They have lots of water and provide many services to the rig industry out there. Wonder who'd get custody of the nooks and nook bases dotted around?

[mashman]

I doubt we could move way from a "money" system ( Money not currency)
We may be able to partially move away. Local communities supplying most of their needs, probably even happens now in some of the remote, smaller places in nz.
Certainly we have to put a stop to wealth transfer by overseas interests, by this I mean interests that do not share NZ core values such as large chinese investors.
I think if people start providing for themselves , and this is happening! And sharing with the local community through local institutions , schools church , pub etc . The move away from the debt will become stronger
I read about a man ( Stuff.co.nz this morning ), who quote" works like an animal" just to stay afloat , in the next sentence it was revealed that 1/2 his 2000 dollars a week went in to the roof over his head.
That is just wrong. If we as a community adress the house and remove his 1000 a week yoke , imagine how much improve the family would be
I wonder how that yoke was imposed.
Solution; how about houses of modest size owed by the state at a retal of 1/3 the minimum wage, ( in mixed areas , ie in both rich and poor areas hahahaha that would piss a few people off!)

As for the cost of the spade, we all know whats going on, So WHY doesnt one of the talking heads just stand up and say the current economic model imposed on nz is not working and we need to do a, b, and c to reclaim a society for decent people.
I mean even sharp 7 did a story on fiat money.....there is hope

Stephen

I'd love to agree that debt was the problem, but I don't. If you decide to inject free money into the system in order to "balance the books", as well as offer a full debt amnesty and then start again, you're going to end up printing money for money's sake. If you hold the patents etc... then you can charge what you like. You can then influence who you like to do what you like. The same malpractice will exist.

Looking on the brighter side, you will end up with enough money for everyone to carry on being a rampant consumer. Resources run out. You wish to speed this up? We're wasting a fuckload of resources (including pointless jobs, I'd rather people took up underwater basket weaving as they'd be producing something). It kinda needs to stop for many many many reasons, not limited to, environmental issues, poverty, war, disease etc...

Not being rude, but I don't see that much of a change where money still exists in the frame. I reckon it'd be much easier to use the current and recognised process in order to elect a party that would game the system to the benefit of an entire country i.e. we build what we choose to build, we fix what we choose to fix and how we choose to fix it, we educate how we choose, but more importantly, we charge what we like for those goods and services within NZ borders and then report that to a bank account. If you are in control of the pricing, you can change the price of any good or service or tax or infringement notice etc... to hit any target you like by the end of the year.

I'm prepared to carry on doing what I'm doing if the majority will in order to have a shot at instigating real change.

[Brian d marge]

I'd love to agree that debt was the problem, but I don't. If you decide to inject free money into the system in order to "balance the books", as well as offer a full debt amnesty and then start again, you're going to end up printing money for money's sake. If you hold the patents etc... then you can charge what you like. You can then influence who you like to do what you like. The same malpractice will exist.

Looking on the brighter side, you will end up with enough money for everyone to carry on being a rampant consumer. Resources run out. You wish to speed this up? We're wasting a fuckload of resources (including pointless jobs, I'd rather people took up underwater basket weaving as they'd be producing something). It kinda needs to stop for many many many reasons, not limited to, environmental issues, poverty, war, disease etc...

Not being rude, but I don't see that much of a change where money still exists in the frame. I reckon it'd be much easier to use the current and recognised process in order to elect a party that would game the system to the benefit of an entire country i.e. we build what we choose to build, we fix what we choose to fix and how we choose to fix it, we educate how we choose, but more importantly, we charge what we like for those goods and services within NZ borders and then report that to a bank account. If you are in control of the pricing, you can change the price of any good or service or tax or infringement notice etc... to hit any target you like by the end of the year.

I'm prepared to carry on doing what I'm doing if the majority will in order to have a shot at instigating real change.
Still cant see how in todays current society u can stop using money

Up to a point yes in small communities of around 200 yes maybe
But once you start inter community trade ya needsome kind of token
Non debt based
Bitcoin in theory

[mashman]

Still cant see how in todays current society u can stop using money

Up to a point yes in small communities of around 200 yes maybe
But once you start inter community trade ya needsome kind of token
Non debt based
Bitcoin in theory

Fair enough, although I see it as nothing more than a decision away.

I don't see why one would need a token given that every community would still require the same goods/services from other communities around the country that they have been relying on for years. The token limits outcome and I reckon people would rather have the outcome than wait for enough money to become available in order to afford to pay for the outcome. Guess we'll see.

[MisterD]

What I'm mostly thinking this morning is: Where the fuck is Hone?

Has he had a falling out with Kimmy? What was the deal with the car crash? Are those two things related?

[bogan]

I'd pay more for a tool that is easier to grasp :facepalm:

In the interest of calling a spade a spade, remove the bullshit and such schemes comes down to one of two things with equivalence in the current economy; inflation due to govt printing money to pay for hammers, or additional taxation of all hammers goods traded (we never established which as mashy doesn't like the realities of thoroughly thinking things through so gave up). Should be easier to grasp, and I won't even charge you :bleh:

[mashman]

In the interest of calling a spade a spade, remove the bullshit and such schemes comes down to one of two things with equivalence in the current economy; inflation due to govt printing money to pay for hammers, or additional taxation of all hammers goods traded (we never established which as mashy doesn't like the realities of thoroughly thinking things through so gave up). Should be easier to grasp, and I won't even charge you :bleh:

Of course we established which, because it can be either or both... you didn't like that answer because you need it to be one of two things :facepalm:. It's an asset or a liability depending on how you choose to value it at that very moment in time in order to achieve the desired financial economic outcome. Still fuckin hilarious that you can't grasp the concept.

[oldrider]

I'd love to agree that debt was the problem, but I don't. If you decide to inject free money into the system in order to "balance the books", as well as offer a full debt amnesty and then start again, you're going to end up printing money for money's sake. If you hold the patents etc... then you can charge what you like. You can then influence who you like to do what you like. The same malpractice will exist.

Looking on the brighter side, you will end up with enough money for everyone to carry on being a rampant consumer. Resources run out. You wish to speed this up? We're wasting a fuckload of resources (including pointless jobs, I'd rather people took up underwater basket weaving as they'd be producing something). It kinda needs to stop for many many many reasons, not limited to, environmental issues, poverty, war, disease etc...

Not being rude, but I don't see that much of a change where money still exists in the frame. I reckon it'd be much easier to use the current and recognised process in order to elect a party that would game the system to the benefit of an entire country i.e. we build what we choose to build, we fix what we choose to fix and how we choose to fix it, we educate how we choose, but more importantly, we charge what we like for those goods and services within NZ borders and then report that to a bank account. If you are in control of the pricing, you can change the price of any good or service or tax or infringement notice etc... to hit any target you like by the end of the year.

I'm prepared to carry on doing what I'm doing if the majority will in order to have a shot at instigating real change.

Even with the most perfect money system (or not) many of those problems will still be there because they are human problems, it is who we are as a species!

Take that away and we don't need a system we would cease to exist!

The system we have now is working OK apart from the diversion of the cost and control of new money ... shift that away from the private banking institutions!

The current established reserve bank could take over the responsibility for issuing and cancelling new money and leave the rest to run as it does now!

A relatively simple task made difficult by the people with their hands on the steering wheel ... like prising the bottle from the hands of an alcoholic!

The difficult part is convincing those (the multitude) in the community that they need to change the system and how to do it and why!

Look at history ... it has always been the same ... the simplist things we all know about today were the hardest things to change in their time!

Like hand washing ... pasturising milk etc etc etc etc etc! :niceone: ... We don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water! :no:

[bogan]

Of course we established which, because it can be either or both... you didn't like that answer because you need it to be one of two things :facepalm:. It's an asset or a liability depending on how you choose to value it at that very moment in time in order to achieve the desired financial economic outcome. Still fuckin hilarious that you can't grasp the concept.

No it can be either or both. But both are a liability, money printing devalues the dollar and is not sustainable long term as it creates no wealth. Increasing taxes on common goods (essentially massive GST increases) will not create wealth either. It's a concept easily grasped, but so are the points that it is a really shit idea; something you seem unable to grasp.

[mashman]

No it can be either or both. But both are a liability, money printing devalues the dollar and is not sustainable long term as it creates no wealth. Increasing taxes on common goods (essentially massive GST increases) will not create wealth either. It's a concept easily grasped, but so are the points that it is a really shit idea; something you seem unable to grasp.

I grasp your concept all too easily having lived it for decades. Tis you that can't make the leap son.

[mashman]

Even with the most perfect money system (or not) many of those problems will still be there because they are human problems, it is who we are as a species!

Take that away and we don't need a system we would cease to exist!

The system we have now is working OK apart from the diversion of the cost and control of new money ... shift that away from the private banking institutions!

The current established reserve bank could take over the responsibility for issuing and cancelling new money and leave the rest to run as it does now!

A relatively simple task made difficult by the people with their hands on the steering wheel ... like prising the bottle from the hands of an alcoholic!

The difficult part is convincing those (the multitude) in the community that they need to change the system and how to do it and why!

Look at history ... it has always been the same ... the simplist things we all know about today were the hardest things to change in their time!

Like hand washing ... pasturising milk etc etc etc etc etc! :niceone: ... We don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water! :no:

True, many of the non-financially related ones will... however given that out behaviour is modified by the existence of money in the first place, I'd venture that a lot of those problems would wane. Yup I am more than happy to accept that other problems may take their place, MAY.

Who's propaganda handbook did you get that little ditty out of? The grumpy bastards guide to defending ones stash? We ain't all that precious are we?

The system we have now is failing.

To what end? Debt free money in todays world would produce what? Other than the rampant consumerism that I mentioned to Stephen earlier... which will only end up badly. Think longer term, I mean, pretend that we have a future lol.

:rofl: in which case leave them with their hands on the wheel, give them a bottle and whilst they're sleeping remove the car.

True, there will be some convincing needed. Although I have to say most of those that I have approached with the idea convert within minutes. Once upon a time in Nelson a man decided to run for mayor. He stood up and announced an R.B.E. approach and received 350+ votes from an electorate that had never heard of an R.B.E. before. He explained it to them in minutes and they understood. The difficult part, as bogan et al highlight, is the individual letting it go. Fortunately the thinking part of the community will render their opinions moot :devil:.

But they did and do still change :yes:

Propaganda again? Given that the entire system is based on confidence, I fail to see how the baby or the bath water would be thrown out in a society that values both as 2 of the most invaluable resources on the planet.

[bluninja]

Of course we established which, because it can be either or both... you didn't like that answer because you need it to be one of two things :facepalm:. It's an asset or a liability depending on how you choose to value it at that very moment in time in order to achieve the desired financial economic outcome. Still fuckin hilarious that you can't grasp the concept.

Wow, it takes Bogan for you to remove one of the hands from your dick :bleh:

An interesting aside...and sort of heading back to topic.....Mr Slater is heading to court to stop the hacker from drip feeding more of his personal stuff and the media printing it. According to the media he's not saying it's false or made up, but that it's personal stuff quote from NZ Herald...."Slater has filed papers claiming further exposure of information from his emails and social media accounts would inflict a huge personal toll.".....errrrr...should this be on the Nicky Hager thread?? What was I thinking :innocent:

[bogan]

I grasp your concept all too easily having lived it for decades. Tis you that can't make the leap son.

Perhaps you can explain how inflation or taxation will increase wealth in nz long term then.

During election run up I think we all have a duty to demand solid answers to questions of government, simplistic explanations aimed at the person instead or dealing with unapplicable abstract concepts/examples/hypotheticals should be treated with nothing but contempt. We can evolve a higher class of politician if we deserve it.

[mashman]

Perhaps you can explain how inflation or taxation will increase wealth in nz long term then.

During election run up I think we all have a duty to demand solid answers to questions of government, simplistic explanations aimed at the person instead or dealing with unapplicable abstract concepts/examples/hypotheticals should be treated with nothing but contempt. We can evolve a higher class of politician if we deserve it.

Using what? The current financial system or under an R.B.E. Coz if it's under an R.B.E. inflation and taxation will have fuck all to do with the wealth of the nation.

bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... I'd be highly amused to see a solid answer come from any political party.

[mashman]

Wow, it takes Bogan for you to remove one of the hands from your dick :bleh:

I only remove my hands from my dick to play with my mangina.

[bogan]

Using what? The current financial system or under an R.B.E. Coz if it's under an R.B.E. inflation and taxation will have fuck all to do with the wealth of the nation.

bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... I'd be highly amused to see a solid answer come from any political party.

Using whatever the million dollar hammer example is applicable for generating wealth for the nation. After all, that is the whole idea behind the example is it not?

[mashman]

Using whatever the million dollar hammer example is applicable for generating wealth for the nation. After all, that is the whole idea behind the example is it not?

Nah, the idea behind the example is to show that NZ can value any item within NZ borders at any value that NZ wishes to value it at. If you are in control of the value of everything in NZ, you could replace the hammers with dog shit, or sand, or artichokes etc...

Irrespective, the value of the hammer/dog shit/sand/artichoke is set for 1 purpose and one purpose only... to appease those who still live under a financial system that expect every country to produce GNI/GDP/GNP etc... figures.

[Brian d marge]

So you want a system thats in equlibrium so that consumerism doesnt fk things up
The system would have to be self regulating or out of the control of a few
Where all could avail themselves to their needs up to a point
Those systems have rather successful in communities up to around 200 people then they tend to break down
Im not sure why but i think its due to administrative issues

[mashman]

So you want a system thats in equlibrium so that consumerism doesnt fk things up
The system would have to be self regulating or out of the control of a few
Where all could avail themselves to their needs up to a point
Those systems have rather successful in communities up to around 200 people then they tend to break down
Im not sure why but i think its due to administrative issues

Sort of, yeah. The idea being that resources are earmarked for education, healthcare, infrastructure blah blah blah, the necessity's of life, before they are made available to joe public in order for them to do their thing. It's what currently happens, yet it's open to the highest bidder and for personal gain instead of happening to the benefit of the "larger" community.
There are tonnes of reasons why such a thing wouldn't work, but I bet the major reason is financial and done in the name of prosperity. That another community suffers is of no concern. Shame really.

[bogan]

Nah, the idea behind the example is to show that NZ can value any item within NZ borders at any value that NZ wishes to value it at. If you are in control of the value of everything in NZ, you could replace the hammers with dog shit, or sand, or artichokes etc...

Irrespective, the value of the hammer/dog shit/sand/artichoke is set for 1 purpose and one purpose only... to appease those who still live under a financial system that expect every country to produce GNI/GDP/GNP etc... figures.

Haha, changed your tune since we first discussed such a stupid idea, good to see you can still be taught something though.

Gdp can (and would in such a situation of obvious number fiddling) be valued using produced goods value in a different currency. So the hammer idea is just bullshit talk which addresses no valueable point, so it and its proponents should be ignored.

[mashman]

Haha, changed your tune since we first discussed such a stupid idea, good to see you can still be taught something though.

Gdp can (and would in such a situation of obvious number fiddling) be valued using produced goods value in a different currency. So the hammer idea is just bullshit talk which addresses no valueable point, so it and its proponents should be ignored.

I fail to see where I have changed my tune, position or anything? Enlighten me.

WTF are you talking about? All numbers are fiddled, I mean seasonally adjusted, I mean have outliers removed, I mean calculated using probability instead of actual etfc... I'm talking about managing the total value of human activity so that it hits every single financial target that is set with absolute certainty. WE value the activity and feed the monetary value into the financial system. That activity will be outcome driven without financial constraint.

[bogan]

I fail to see where I have changed my tune, position or anything? Enlighten me.

WTF are you talking about? All numbers are fiddled, I mean seasonally adjusted, I mean have outliers removed, I mean calculated using probability instead of actual etfc... I'm talking about managing the total value of human activity so that it hits every single financial target that is set with absolute certainty. WE value the activity and feed the monetary value into the financial system. That activity will be outcome driven without financial constraint.

You know, all this issue dodging, empty words, and failure to learn/comprehend, in addition to an oversized sense of your theories worth; has made me realise something. You're a politician! Just one whose ideas are too stupid to gain a following :killingme Thanks mashy, I needed some more faith in the electoral process after watching the last 'debate'.

PS: google is fun

Dunno how they'd deal with it, but under an RBE it could be as simple as fuckin with how much things "cost" i.e. a hammer made locally could "cost" $1 million and the "profit" from that could go to paying off the debt.

Now, will you show us your political stripes and try and make out you meant something different? or will you own your fuck up?