Oddball engines and prototypes

[guyhockley]

More air-cooled images

[guyhockley]

Random stuff, couple of HD-Aermacchis and a brace of Villas

[guyhockley]

Villa V-twins

[guyhockley]

This may have been mentioned on the ESE thread rather than here, but this seems a more appropriate place for it.
I had a really good look and a (static) sit on this bike when Lea Gourlay was riding it (not at the same time! :lol:).
At that point they had just fitted a Craig Davies electric water pump instead of the original.
I was very dubious about the 90 horsepower at 10000 claim. When I asked Lea, he just grinned enigmatically...

[guyhockley]

A bike with a connection to the Ringhini?
A watercooled Benelli 250.
I think Wil mentioned QUB.

[guyhockley]

Also for Wil, the KRM and a link to a VR1000 article

https://www.sportrider.com/hog-wild?CMPID=01

I remember reading another, Crashcart, I think, article which quoted Mike Eatough, the frame designer.
He researched lots of different profiles for the frame spars and could find no advantage to extrusions with internal ribs so went with a plain rectangular section.

[lohring]

I owned Harley stock years ago when baby boomers could afford to live out their childhood dreams of motorcycle ownership. I loved the annual report. These days the image is fading along with the riders. I see they are building an electric motorcycle. Do you think millennials will give up their smart phones for one?

Lohring Miller

[Michael Moore]

Mike Eatough (Tony Foale's ex "apprentice"/plagiarist?)

Guy, that was Nigel Leaper who went to Waddon and then Team Heron Suzuki after working for Tony .

Eatough built many frames for CCM and then his own branded frames, and later moved to H-D where I think he designed the VR1000 frame. He was also quite a good MX rider.

cheers,
Michael

[guyhockley]

Guy, that was Nigel Leaper who went to Waddon and then Team Heron Suzuki after working for Tony .

Eatough built many frames for CCM and then his own branded frames, and later moved to H-D where I think he designed the VR1000 frame. He was also quite a good MX rider.

cheers,
Michael

I realised that after I had posted but you had already replied before I got back to the computer!

Now edited...

[WilDun]

Also for Wil, the KRM and a link to a VR1000 article

https://www.sportrider.com/hog-wild?CMPID=01

I remember reading another, Crashcart, I think, article which quoted Mike Eatough, the frame designer.
He researched lots of different profiles for the frame spars and could find no advantage to extrusions with internal ribs so went with a plain rectangular section.

That HD is a great looking machine and deserves a better place in the motorcycle scene, but i can only comment on what I can see and read, so my judgement may probably be a bit limited!

Talking about visual, in my younger days, you could say I was very envious of the ability of Laurie Watts to produce those fantastic drawings in the sixties - I can do freehand skethes enough to understand, but those are fantastic, although not purely freehand sketches and (as I understand it) produced from 3D drawings done on a board.

[husaberg]

Also for Wil, the KRM and a link to a VR1000 article

https://www.sportrider.com/hog-wild?CMPID=01

I remember reading another, Crashcart, I think, article which quoted Mike Eatough, the frame designer.
He researched lots of different profiles for the frame spars and could find no advantage to extrusions with internal ribs so went with a plain rectangular section.

Guy, that was Nigel Leaper who went to Waddon and then Team Heron Suzuki after working for Tony .

Eatough built many frames for CCM and then his own branded frames, and later moved to H-D where I think he designed the VR1000 frame. He was also quite a good MX rider.

cheers,
Michael
I think there were quite a few variations on the VR1000 frame including i think a thin wall steel version.
I never buy into the Foale vs others spine frame as there were plenty about prior to Foale
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[Michael Moore]

As with leading link forks, Tony makes no claims to having originated spine frames.

When Dr. Roe threatened Tony with a patent infringement suit (Roe had obtained a set of Tony's LLFs and then tested them before writing the patent document, apparently in a way that made Tony's forks a potential infringement), Tony told the solicitor that he would be happy to go to court and tell everyone about Guzzi, Sprayson, Greeves and everyone else he knew of who made LLFs. He never heard from them again. I'm sure he'd be equally happy to tell people what he knows of the history of spine frames too. Tony is well aware that the 1950s GP Guzzis had spine frames before he built his first one as a youth in Australia and he was quite familiar with the Aermacchi frame since he was racing a 350.

The thing with Waddon, as the clipping shows, is that Leaper worked (not long) for Tony and then when he went to Waddon they were the ones that claimed the ground-breaking advancement of a spine frame with LLFs. Tony took one of his old frames (which he wasn't making any longer) and put it on display at the show to to have a laugh at Waddon's expense.

John Wittner visited Tony in England for several days to check out his big Guzzi spine frame with floating rear gear case before deciding not to buy one. Tony was surprised to find out that Wittner later had a ground-breaking big Guzzi spine frame with floating rear gear case (I think by that time Tony was in Spain and out of bikes and I mentioned it to him) that looked a lot like his.

As long as I've known Tony he's been quite willing to give credit for good ideas where credit is due, and not claim other people's work as his own. He's got enough of his own accomplishments to not need to pinch the credit for those of other people.

cheers,
Michael

[husaberg]

As with leading link forks, Tony makes no claims to having originated spine frames.

When Dr. Roe threatened Tony with a patent infringement suit (Roe had obtained a set of Tony's LLFs and then tested them before writing the patent document, apparently in a way that made Tony's forks a potential infringement), Tony told the solicitor that he would be happy to go to court and tell everyone about Guzzi, Sprayson, Greeves and everyone else he knew of who made LLFs. He never heard from them again. I'm sure he'd be equally happy to tell people what he knows of the history of spine frames too. Tony is well aware that the 1950s GP Guzzis had spine frames before he built his first one as a youth in Australia and he was quite familiar with the Aermacchi frame since he was racing a 350.

The thing with Waddon, as the clipping shows, is that Leaper worked (not long) for Tony and then when he went to Waddon they were the ones that claimed the ground-breaking advancement of a spine frame with LLFs. Tony took one of his old frames (which he wasn't making any longer) and put it on display at the show to to have a laugh at Waddon's expense.

John Wittner visited Tony in England for several days to check out his big Guzzi spine frame with floating rear gear case before deciding not to buy one. Tony was surprised to find out that Wittner later had a ground-breaking big Guzzi spine frame with floating rear gear case (I think by that time Tony was in Spain and out of bikes and I mentioned it to him) that looked a lot like his.

As long as I've known Tony he's been quite willing to give credit for good ideas where credit is due, and not claim other people's work as his own. He's got enough of his own accomplishments to not need to pinch the credit for those of other people.

cheers,
Michael

It wasn't a dig at Tony I was a more i ddn't buy into the premise i never read the text only looked at the picture.
Way back in the chassis thread i posted an old HRD frame single shock cantilever 1920's i think i even seen an earlier one the other day on a boardtrack racer or something not much is new most thinks have been done before. from memory it was a dig at Yamaha discovery of the single shock. i also brought up the other spine frames when someone made a coment in reference to the waddon previously.

i have Mr Foales book and i really enjoyed it. i cant find it now either likely lent it to someone. But it was a great read as it demistifed a lot of things. for me esp head angles etc.
I often used his website as well. for calculations
At the tme of Dr John and the floating gear case he also viewed another racer in Europe running a similar system (i cant recall who it was though i am not sure it was a Guzzi maybe a BMW or something Saxon done)
i think it way have been who the Telelever was borrowed off as well so Saxon?

There was an interesting swingarm and frame set up i found a while back by a Brit outfit in the late 70's it was a parralagram set up used on a Z1 I think powered endurance racer.
I think It was black with a Nickel or Chrome frame i cant recall if i posted it it had an interesting front end as well but both things had likly been tried before many moons ago just like Disc brakes on Douglas and 4v heads on all sorts of harleys triumphs and Rudges.
I googled the bike at the time but failed to turn up much at all.
When i get some strength back in my arm i will try and find it again

[Michael Moore]

MV Agusta had a shaft drive four with parallelogram rear suspension in 1950, so the concept is a good 70 years old. Arturo Magni continued to offer that kind of rear end for Guzzis 20+ years ago,

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and then there's the BMWs with floating gear case.

Hossack and Saxon (Nigel Hill?) both saw their FFEs used by BMW. At least Norman got a trip to Germany to see the Six debuted, but that was it. I don't know that Saxon got any recognition. Being a giant corporation must be very liberating, you have such freedom to do whatever you want to do.

[husaberg]

MV Agusta had a shaft drive four with parallelogram rear suspension in 1950, so the concept is a good 70 years old. Arturo Magni continued to offer that kind of rear end for Guzzis 20+ years ago,

340471

and then there's the BMWs with floating gear case.

Hossack and Saxon (Nigel Hill?) both saw their FFEs used by BMW. At least Norman got a trip to Germany to see the Six debuted, but that was it. I don't know that Saxon got any recognition. Being a giant corporation must be very liberating, you have such freedom to do whatever you want to do.

I added some stuff that never saved the first time.
i think the V6 Laverda might have as well. likely the velocette Roarer too

[Michael Moore]

The later Laverda Sei had a very long swing arm pivoting about at the midline of the engine to help stop jacking in the rear suspension. I can't recall if it was a floating gearcase or not but I don't see signs of that in the attached photo.

I think the other bike you mentioned is the Laverda triple engined Nessie. The later Kawasaki used a long single-sided swing arm.

[husaberg]

The later Laverda Sei had a very long swing arm pivoting about at the midline of the engine to help stop jacking in the rear suspension. I can't recall if it was a floating gearcase or not but I don't see signs of that in the attached photo.

I think the other bike you mentioned is the Laverda triple engined Nessie. The later Kawasaki used a long single-sided swing arm.

I think it was something like alcorn alcorna alcore.....
it looked like this at the rear only not as pronounced but i cant remember what the front was but it was bloody interesting but still looked conventional (important for marketing types)

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The steering pivoted of struts back to the frame. i think it was similar to the leter telever BMW or the Aprilias set up like the Saxon and likly others
but anyway this one looks far older. but it makes sense.
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That Amrerican OHC short stroke BMW that used to mess up the staus quo in early AMA clasics i think had a floating case rear diff as well (i think) leiblehmier sp or something.

[husaberg]

Found the front anyway on Foales site lol
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I will scan and post it later as i have found the old mag now too.
what i was remembering wrong as struts are hydraulic dampers.
Altec used to make tanks and stuff inc seeley Forks stuff for Dunstall. according to the blurb
The rear end is actually three piece pics to follow.

follow
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[Michael Moore]

Thanks for those scans. I'd never seen a photo showing the back end of the Altec.

[husaberg]

Thanks for those scans. I'd never seen a photo showing the back end of the Altec.

I can only deduce seeing as we are all not running around on Altec front and rear suspension maybe it wasn't a massive leap foward.
The rear makes sense though although i am not sure if you could dial in squat with ecentric links i guess you could. it would also give the cranked over bending additional suspension anti chatter that goes in and out of fashion.

[guyhockley]

I think there's a bit of a parallel between Altec and Norman Hossack's early bikes, in that lots gets said about the front and the unconventional rear ends get somewhat ignored.

[husaberg]

I think there's a bit of a parallel between Altec and Norman Hossack's early bikes, in that lots gets said about the front and the unconventional rear ends get somewhat ignored.

Yamaha according to the blub in a road test of the tilting three wheeled Niken say they found when it was tested on a Motogp bike it could corner 5km faster in the dry and more of a difference in the wet than the conventional set up. the extra weight and width and aero drag slowed it down on the straights though (plus it had three wheels so it wasn't ever going to be bloody legal anyway)
Yes i laughed too first time i saw the pics of it, but i think its quirkyness is growing on me. much like Uma Thurman or Velma from scooby doo.:innocent:
but seeing how it works there might be more of them in the future even if it just gives us cheap single sided forks to dress up the Friday night specials to go along with the fashion accessory high exhaust and single sided swingarm.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=43&v=Nfutyemhnz4
The link at the frount called the Ackerman steering principal was invented and patented in 1818. (thats not a typo either)
The Yamaha has the 850 Three cylinder out of the MT09 so with 115 Hp and a R1 gearbox it should keep up with traffic okay.
I remember how much fun top gear had with the leaning car even Jezza who hates bikes
Said Never had so much fun in a car.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK4wzBYmTIo
Well the way i see it the niken is a far better set up.
Throw another set of wheels on ther rear like an ATV and a simple body and run it up Pikes Peak or Cadrona.

[WilDun]

I turn my back for a moment and when I turned around and looked in again there had been some sort of Tsunami of bike information! Guy, I hope that you have left some stuff in your archives for later! and please don't encourage Husa to spill his guts as well ..... too much information for guys like me and it will take me bloody months to fight my way through it all! - and because I haven't gone through it all I would like to have my recollection confirmed re: the Nessie front end. ... is it entirely based on the original DiFazio suspension and hub centre steering?
BTW, Nessie sure looked Messy! :laugh:

[ken seeber]

I must say that I think that the Niken front end design, despite the obvious & known advantages of a twin wheel front end, to be absolutely hideous. Compare to the relative elegance of the TriCity or the MPS, where the suspension is between the wheels, not outside.
My opinion only though.

[Frits Overmars]

I must say that I think that the Niken front end design, despite the obvious & known advantages of a twin wheel front end, to be absolutely hideous. Compare to the relative elegance of the TriCity or the MPS, where the suspension is between the wheels, not outside.
My opinion only though.Mine too, Ken.

[guyhockley]

Walter Kaaden at MZ reportedly commented that he knew a 2T exhaust was getting near the right dimensions when it couldn't be put on the bike without dragging, burning the rider, or requiring the relocation of some other major component (including the rider).

Somewhat like this Zabel RGV special:

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cheers,
Michael

It can be ridden, here's the proof!
With bigger cylinders the length can be a problem, see the TZ350Gs. The Tularis is absolutely fantastic, but, by my reckoning it wouldn't be legal to race in the UK unless they've changed the rule about exhausts not protruding beyond the back of the rear wheel.
Then again we used to have a rule about keeping your feet on the footrests...

[guyhockley]

I turn my back for a moment and when I turned around and looked in again there had been some sort of Tsunami of bike information! Guy, I hope that you have left some stuff in your archives for later! and please don't encourage Husa to spill his guts as well ..... too much information for guys like me and it will take me bloody months to fight my way through it all! - and because I haven't gone through it all I would like to have my recollection confirmed re: the Nessie front end. ... is it entirely based on the original DiFazio suspension and hub centre steering?
BTW, Nessie sure looked Messy! :laugh:

Sorry, Wil, injured ankle so forced to sit down with my feet up. MRI scan on thursday, not looking forward to it. Apparently it's got to be the full body, just for one bloody ankle! They sent a form - one of the questions was "Have you EVER had any metal fragments enter your eyes eg while drilling or grinding". So no worries!
I believe Nessie was based on DiFazio's HCS. There's a few of his front ends around here, but I now live about 30 minutes from where his shop was so not surprising, really.

[guyhockley]

Yamaha according to the blub in a road test of the tilting three wheeled Niken say they found when it was tested on a Motogp bike it could corner 5km faster in the dry and more of a difference in the wet than the conventional set up. the extra weight and width and aero drag slowed it down on the straights though (plus it had three wheels so it wasn't ever going to be bloody legal anyway).

I don't know if there's any proof but pub talk is that lots of TTWs get crashed. It's supposedly the old risk compensation thing, people think the things are uncrashable so they push them further then find out there is a limit.

[husaberg]

Sorry, Wil, injured ankle so forced to sit down with my feet up. MRI scan on thursday, not looking forward to it. Apparently it's got to be the full body, just for one bloody ankle! They sent a form - one of the questions was "Have you EVER had any metal fragments enter your eyes eg while drilling or grinding". So no worries!
I believe Nessie was based on DiFazio's HCS. There's a few of his front ends around here, but I now live about 30 minutes from where his shop was so not surprising, really.

Have you had one before if you haven't make sure you get the headphones unlesss you really like weird loud electronica music.
Some of the process at one stage was rattling my teeeth they never mentioned that . I cant inagine what having a MRI done would be like if you were anyway claustrophobic either.
On the plus side it was better than the ultrasound i had once that made you feel like you were peeing your pants. Now thats a bloody odd feeling to have as an adult.


I don't know if there's any proof but pub talk is that lots of TTWs get crashed. It's supposedly the old risk compensation thing, people think the things are uncrashable so they push them further then find out there is a limit.
I don't think i could ever ride one, certainly not buy one. Far to much ugly and its not a bike with the extra wheel.
But i think if the concept was doubled up at the rear given a bit of car body work and a haf decent engine.
it could be a good cross over seller a lot of bike riders wont buy a 3 wheeler
A lot of car driver would like to try a bike but are too concerned re safety or there misses is. (they are the ones over represented in the crash stats to those middle aged returned bikers)
i think a cross over that blended some of the fun of leaning etc plus rapid F1 acceleration and stopping but had an enclosed body and safety aspects of a car
might attract a newer market to bikes lord knows the numbers are dropping. plus it might be bloody good fun.

[WilDun]

Talking about those three wheelers, I have been interested in them for a very long time and even went to the trouble of buying a Honda Gyro - bit of a toy really so I sold it about a year later (didn't feel too safe on the road, - too small, slow and twichy, but I loved the lean!).

I should maybe explain that my neck and spine are completely frozen - C/W steel rods attached by screws (and no support for neck), so I can't even contemplate riding a two wheeler, the fear of dropping it and being laid up forever (or dead) - just too much! - could happen in even a moderate car crash I guess, but I try not to think about that!
That's why I only talk about bikes and don't put my money where my mouth is! - please forgive me. I do not want to appear a "know it all" - most of what I say is suggestion only, feel free to point out where I'm wrong, if ever you believe that I am!

So ...... Not so sure that leaning front wheels (as in the machinery being discussed) are really necessary, as a normal car type suspension setup would work in conjunction with a leaning rear section (a la motorcycle) and would do fine - with more contact area too!.
My feeling is that the leaning part (complete with rider etc) could still interact with the steering linkages??

Anyway, just my thoughts - right or wrong! - but I guess we still have that residual love of motorcycles in our system, we want it to look like a bike, as in Yamaha's ridiculous (looking) offering and it would seem that we just can't wean ourselves away from that! :no:

[husaberg]

Talking about those three wheelers, I have been interested in them for a very long time and even went to the trouble of buying a Honda Gyro - bit of a toy really so I sold it about a year later (didn't feel too safe on the road, - too small, slow and twichy, but I loved the lean!)
I should maybe explain that my neck and spine are completely frozen - C/W steel rods attached by screws (and no support for neck), so I can't even contemplate riding a two wheeler, the fear of dropping it and being laid up forever (or dead) - just too much! - could happen in even a moderate car crash I guess, but I try not to think about that!
That's why I only talk about bikes and don't put my money where my mouth is! - please forgive me. I do not want to appear a "know it all" - most of what I say is suggestion only, feel free to point out where I'm wrong, if ever you believe that I am!

So ...... Not so sure that leaning front wheels (as in the machinery being discussed) are really necessary, as a normal car type suspension setup would work in conjunction with a leaning rear section (a la motorcycle) and would do fine - with more contact area too!.
My feeling is that the leaning part (complete with rider etc) could still interact with the steering linkages??

Anyway, just my thoughts - right or wrong! - but I guess, we still have that residual love of motorcycles in our system, we want it to look like la bike, as in Yamaha's ridiculous (looking) offering and we can't wean ourselves away from that! :no:

what i think you are ye kind od suggesting is what the carver kind of is. other than the front end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHSPihVvCmI

The tilting front suspension decreases the turning radius, the more further its tilted the tighter it turns from mremorory the inner and out wheel are at different angles on the niken to account for the diferent distance traveled etc.

[WilDun]

what i think you are ye kind od suggesting is what the carver kind of is. other than the front end.
The tilting front suspension decreases the turning radius, the more further its tilted the tighter it turns from mremorory the inner and out wheel are at different angles on the niken to account for the diferent distance traveled etc.

Not really, I was talking about two wheels up front, the back end (the leaning bit) effectively still being a motorcycle and the front (in effect), being a car. The Carver concept (arguably more similar to the little Honda Gyro), never actually took off to become the complete answer - it has been around for a while now!

[Michael Moore]

Maybe a nice Greeves Invacar instead?

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[Grumph]

Maybe a nice Greeves Invacar instead?

340519

Hell no - those things are lethal. made for ex servicemen who'd survived the war and were fearless....
Derry Preston - Cobb's one finished up with a full house motocross engine in it. Mad....

Every race meeting I go to now, there's a couple of the Niken's parked for the use of officials. Yamaha here are pushing them as an alternative "normal" - to what end I don't yet know.
Ugly bloody things.

Enjoy the MRI, Guy. The iodine base dye is almost as good as the original one used in angiograms. That gave an instant hot flush allover.

[WilDun]

Maybe a nice Greeves Invacar instead?

Way ahead of it's time! (looks like a disc brake up front), but then maybe my eyesight isn't so good, I thought those things with legs were pigs! :msn-wink - wouldn't be surprised if it was a 'tilter' as well :- maybe not, that muffler might get in the way.

I do remember on the way home from school having to push a guy who had stalled his - the starter didn't work due to a low battery.

[guyhockley]

Hell no - those things are lethal. made for ex servicemen who'd survived the war and were fearless....
Derry Preston - Cobb's one finished up with a full house motocross engine in it. Mad....

Every race meeting I go to now, there's a couple of the Niken's parked for the use of officials. Yamaha here are pushing them as an alternative "normal" - to what end I don't yet know.
Ugly bloody things.

Enjoy the MRI, Guy. The iodine base dye is almost as good as the original one used in angiograms. That gave an instant hot flush allover.

I used to have a 210 National kart (built by one of Wobbly's former employers). I had a Montesa engine to go in it for the 250 class. The former 9e Villiers based motor was bought by some one to go in an Invacar. My previous experience with them made me decline any further involvement in that project...
The bike shop I worked in in the 70s was just up the road from a college for young disabled people. Although the Invacar set-up was normally a Formula 1 style arrive and drive deal, occasionally they would turn up at our door with problems. First time it happened, Kevin, the older mechanic, "generously" let me have the "pleasure". At one point we had a test drive with me as a passenger (not easy!). My reaction to that was "if you weren't an invalid when they gave you one of those, you bloody well soon would be!"
Few years later I was working on an industrial estate and there was a unit with a load of the little blue horrors outside. As far as I could see they now had a flat twin foul stroke with CVT that looked very similar to a dump truck engine.

[guyhockley]

Not really, I was talking about two wheels up front, the back end (the leaning bit) effectively still being a motorcycle and the front (in effect), being a car. The Carver concept (arguably more similar to the little Honda Gyro), never actually took off to become the complete answer - it has been around for a while now!

The recumbent bicycle people differentiate trikes as Delta - 2 wheels at the back, or Tadpole - 2 wheels at the front.
I guess most people know that the Reliant 3 wheelers could be driven on a bike licence because they were under a certain weight, well, one of the three wheel motorbikes -
can't remember which, and don't care, anyway - comes in 2 versions. The only difference is 5mm for the front track width. "Wide" for car licence, "narrow" for bikers (trikers?).

[guyhockley]

Lot of people on here who've had their magnetic fields aligned! Thanks, fellas. How come headphones work inside a big magnet? :-) Don't think I'm getting an internal paint job, Grumph, got a third degree about the pin in my other ankle which seemed to be my consultant's main concern.
PS. My foot/ankle specialist is called Louise Skipp! Nominative determinism? :lol:

[Frits Overmars]

I was talking about two wheels up front, the back end (the leaning bit) effectively still being a motorcycle and the front (in effect), being a car.Something like this Wil?
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Maybe a nice Greeves Invacar instead?
Hell no - those things are lethal. made for ex servicemen who'd survived the war and were fearless....My mistake; I always thought they were for ex-servicemen who were legless.
An uncle of mine used to drive something similar. When he was visiting us, my brothers and I would push his means of transport out of sight and then try to roll it.
It was quite stable really.


one of the three wheel motorbikes - can't remember which, and don't care, anyway - comes in 2 versions. The only difference is 5mm for the front track width. "Wide" for car licence, "narrow" for bikers (trikers?).That would be the Piaggio 250 and the Piaggio 400. I tried the latter, and though I would not be found dead riding one on a daily basis, it was good fun in the wet.

[guyhockley]

Here's an article about an earlier iteration of the Evinrude powered Volvo... or not!

[WilDun]

Something like this Wil?
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My mistake; I always thought they were for ex-servicemen who were legless.
An uncle of mine used to drive something similar. When he was visiting us, my brothers and I would push his means of transport out of sight and then try to roll it.
It was quite stable really.

That would be the Piaggio 250 and the Piaggio 400. I tried the latter, and though I would not be found dead riding one on a daily basis, it was good fun in the wet.

I would be quite happy to be seen on any of these things! but I must never allow myself to try them (for the reasons given a few posts back) - and I must never allow myself to be "legless" either (for the same reason).
I'm not even safe on an exercycle, I crashed mine when the pin holding up the seat came out, it did a "wheelie" and dumped me off the back! - luckily I escaped injury.

Nevertheless I find the tilting vechicles extremely interesting - unfortunately it is less difficult to make the "Delta" version look presentable than the "tadpole" version.
As I said though, in the tadpole version, are tilting wheels up front really necessary? just so long as the rear "motorcycle" section leans? whereas, in the delta version a tilting wheel (read front section C/W with rider) would be very necessary to get away from the nasty tricycle tendency to tip under braking, when going into a corner.

And yes Frits, something like that would keep me happy (not so sure about the tube work, but somewhere to begin). - A few years back (under duress) I became a mobility scooter fanatic and I have been dreaming about producing a super modified version ever since (and there's a lot of scope there with those unimaginative heaps of crap!).

Believe it or not, someone from a certain Northern European country (not yours) has been importing and trying to sell them here with a price tag approaching 30,000 NZ dollars!! ....... (theiving b******s!), these being aimed no doubt at the families of rich pensioners who are feeling guilty about incarcerating their oldies!

[Mental Trousers]

Any of you guys following Alex @ 2Stroke Stuffing's latest go at building the ultimate 2 stroke? He's on here somewhere but I can't remember his username.

Youtube playlist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlMg_O4fTNY&list=PLXcD4bU9sKtEoixg8L8jZEQHEl4btnzl9)

[tjbw]

Any of you guys following Alex @ 2Stroke Stuffing's latest go at building the ultimate 2 stroke? He's on here somewhere but I can't remember his username.

Youtube playlist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlMg_O4fTNY&list=PLXcD4bU9sKtEoixg8L8jZEQHEl4btnzl9)

adegnas ??

[Mental Trousers]

adegnas ??

No such user :doh:

[guyhockley]

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/44265-adegnes

[tjbw]

No such user :doh:


https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/44265-adegnes

[Mental Trousers]

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/44265-adegnes

Yeah that's him.

[guyhockley]

I would like to have my recollection confirmed re: the Nessie front end. ... is it entirely based on the original DiFazio suspension and hub centre steering?
BTW, Nessie sure looked Messy! :laugh:

Just found these on https://twitter.com/stevencordall
Ex MCN staffer's Twitter feed, snippets of gossip and pictures from "back in the day"

[Michael Moore]

On the late Kawasaki Nessie M&T used a spherical bearing in the hub instead of the kingpin with taper roller bearings as standard for Difazio. Here's Difazio's 1968 patent document

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Difazio/DifazioGB1274441A.pdf

cheers,
Michael

[husaberg]

Just found these on https://twitter.com/stevencordall
Ex MCN staffer's Twitter feed, snippets of gossip and pictures from "back in the day"

That last pic of Nessie ,does the swingarnm have a rather large kink in it?Does that version have a co-axial gearbox sprocket

[Michael Moore]

Yes, the Kawasaki Nessie had SSSA (single sided swing arm) with coaxial pivot, and had both round and box tube versions.

[husaberg]

Yes, the Kawasaki Nessie had SSSA (single sided swing arm) with coaxial pivot, and had both round and box tube versions.

Cheers

So many different nessies but most show the front end only or the para back end.
That 1970's endurance racing was such a fertile breeding ground for alternative chassis design

[WilDun]

One only PUCH to win a MX World championship.

[husaberg]

One only MX World champion! - PUCH.

life in the ol dog yet

[Frits Overmars]

One only MX World champion! - PUCH.After Harry Everts became MX-world champion 1976, I was offered the opportunity to take his Puch MC250 engine apart. It featured a rotary inlet plus a piston controlled inlet, both breathing through a 32 mm Bing carb.
340721 340722 340719 340720

[Pursang]

I bought a Suzuki TC 90/100 engine that was fitted with a later piston port barrel and ran two carbs, the rotary valve induction and the one behind the cylinder.

Someone thought it might be worth the effort.

cheers, Daryl.

[guyhockley]

Maybe Puch are just one of those companies that like to do things differently. I rebuilt a few VS50 sports moped engines back during the sixteener moped era and they have magneto bearings for the mains and lots of shims as I remember.

[husaberg]

Maybe Puch are just one of those companies that like to do things differently. I rebuilt a few VS50 sports moped engines back during the sixteener moped era and they have magneto bearings for the mains and lots of shims as I remember.

Vrm Roffe uses them in his racing build, so there must be some advantage in using them.
http://www.pvlsverige.se/vrm/index/indexeng.html
https://en-gb.facebook.com/pages/category/Motorcycle-Repair-Shop/VRM-Racing-parts-162446397143228/
Yes thats a Disc valve MB5 or NS50
340742340743340744340745

[guyhockley]

Nice work!
The relationship between inner, outer and width for magneto bearings is different to the 6000 etc. series.
We had a motor where a bearing siezed and the shaft spun in it. I used a magneto bearing that had the same OD (can't remember if the width was the same) but a smaller ID so the shaft could just be turned down a bit to fit without having to buy a costly replacement. Ran for years afterwards.
Could be useful for some conversions, maybe?
Wouldn't have thought that was the case in the picture you posted, though, given VRM's capabilities

[husaberg]

Nice work!
The relationship between inner, outer and width for magneto bearings is different to the 6000 etc. series.
We had a motor where a bearing siezed and the shaft spun in it. I used a magneto bearing that had the same OD (can't remember if the width was the same) but a smaller ID so the shaft could just be turned down a bit to fit without having to buy a costly replacement. Ran for years afterwards.
Could be useful for some conversions, maybe?
Wouldn't have thought that was the case in the picture you posted, though, given VRM's capabilities

I wouldn't have thought the tolerances of the running clearance would have been wide enough i cant imagine they come in C3.
But he must have had a reason that said one side of those hondas is a odd size 22mm id 50mmOD or 6228 on the primary , The mag side is the weak side to as its not oil soaked from the primary. although the disc and the cooling flow might help there
maybe the mag bearings give 1/40 of a Hp in less friction?
I don't do facebooky, if you do, you could ask. Roffe.

[guyhockley]

German tuner Walter "Waldo" Nieser just died and one of the pictures posted of him shows him holding a crank with mag bearings!

Couple of other pictures puzzled me. Caveat, I'm looking at these on a tiny, crappy phone screen so hard to see details, but it looks like he may have been using flat heads with no combustion chamber. The water cooled cylinder is definitely unfinished but the head looks done, although I can't decide whether there is a plug thread or not. The caption with it said it was for a Kreidler or Maico.
The air cooled is a Maico, the marque he was most associated with, probably the RS 125.
No pictures of pistons, unfortunately, would they have a bowl in the top, would they be flat, am I chasing rainbows?...

[tjbw]

German tuner Walter "Waldo" Nieser just died and one of the pictures posted of him shows him holding a crank with mag bearings!

Couple of other pictures puzzled me. Caveat, I'm looking at these on a tiny, crappy phone screen so hard to see details, but it looks like he may have been using flat heads with no combustion chamber. The water cooled cylinder is definitely unfinished but the head looks done, although I can't decide whether there is a plug thread or not. The caption with it said it was for a Kreidler or Maico.
The air cooled is a Maico, the marque he was most associated with, probably the RS 125.
No pictures of pistons, unfortunately, would they have a bowl in the top, would they be flat, am I chasing rainbows?...

RIP Waldo.

Rough plug thread can be seen in the last photo, looks like a shallow dome combustion chamber too.

[husaberg]

German tuner Walter "Waldo" Nieser just died and one of the pictures posted of him shows him holding a crank with mag bearings!

Couple of other pictures puzzled me. Caveat, I'm looking at these on a tiny, crappy phone screen so hard to see details, but it looks like he may have been using flat heads with no combustion chamber. The water cooled cylinder is definitely unfinished but the head looks done, although I can't decide whether there is a plug thread or not. The caption with it said it was for a Kreidler or Maico.
The air cooled is a Maico, the marque he was most associated with, probably the RS 125.
No pictures of pistons, unfortunately, would they have a bowl in the top, would they be flat, am I chasing rainbows?...


RIP Waldo.

Rough plug thread can be seen in the last photo, looks like a shallow dome combustion chamber too.

I would say it must be finished doe to the water fittingsd being added, there does indeed appear a shallow dip around the plug
Maybe he was a follower of the Kawasaki concave piston combustion chamber.
Maybe he found it easier to machine the pistons to experiment.

[190mech]

Jan Thiel still talks of magneto bearings on 50cc racers from time to time,it must be a good/adjustable setup!

[husaberg]

Jan Thiel still talks of magneto bearings on 50cc racers from time to time,it must be a good/adjustable setup!

We could ask him i guess.

Most gears in Italy were made by CIMA at Bologna
Jan unrelated to gears, but could you tell us about any advantages of Magneto bearings?
As used here on a crankshaft
340772340773340774

[WilDun]

I know it's a little off the two wheel track and it's possible that it's been mentioned before, but ……….. this has to be the ultimate in fun and even I might be able to use it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSMWEd54NcA

[guyhockley]

Just found out about these. Most outboards have reed valves into the bottom of the crankcase but Mr Martin thought different, apparently. I've seen automatic inlet valve two strokes in museums and books but these are timed by eccentrics on the crank.

https://www.joeoutboard.com/manuals/martin-manuals.html

[Pursang]

[QUOTE=guyhockley;......these are timed by eccentrics on the crank.[/QUOTE]

That's keeping it simple, a bit more work to change the timing, but!

Cheers, Daryl.

[Pursang]

I know it's a little off the two wheel track and it's possible that it's been mentioned before, but ……….. this has to be the ultimate in fun and even I might be able to use it!


That does look like a whole lot of fun!!! So long as it's fitted with a decent 2 stroke engine.

Cheers, Daryl.

[Grumph]

Just found out about these. Most outboards have reed valves into the bottom of the crankcase but Mr Martin thought different, apparently. I've seen automatic inlet valve two strokes in museums and books but these are timed by eccentrics on the crank.


Perkins in the UK did something very similar in the 50's. Drawing and pics in Irvings 2 stroke book - which i've misplaced.

Friend of my father's had a Perkins 40HP with this setup. Went quite well too.

[WilDun]

That does look like a whole lot of fun!!! So long as it's fitted with a decent 2 stroke engine.

Cheers, Daryl.

That could probably be done I'm sure - a really giant leap forward.
Not many motorcycle type two strokes available now, (everything is dictated by fashion - nothing is dictated by commonsense!).

[tjbw]

Just found out about these. Most outboards have reed valves into the bottom of the crankcase but Mr Martin thought different, apparently. I've seen automatic inlet valve two strokes in museums and books but these are timed by eccentrics on the crank.

https://www.joeoutboard.com/manuals/martin-manuals.html

Shouldn't there be a seal between the crankcase chambers?

Martin engines were manufactured by National Pressure Cooker Company. I think the engines had cams on the crankshaft, as indicated on these patent drawings.


340932

340933

[guyhockley]

Older outboards with bush main bearings often don't have any additional crank seals and I think the crank is running directly in the crank case as a centre bearing. The cams are either side of that.
Interesting that it's a horizontally split case when the Japanese hadn't invented them, yet!

[guyhockley]

That could probably be done I'm sure - a really giant leap forward.
Not many motorcycle type two strokes available now, (everything is dictated by fashion - nothing is dictated by commonsense!).

Quite a few people in the UK have fitted bike engines into mobility scooters, Colin Furze, for example, but I think they have all been foul strokes.

[husaberg]

Older outboards with bush main bearings often don't have any additional crank seals and I think the crank is running directly in the crank case as a centre bearing. The cams are either side of that.
Interesting that it's a horizontally split case when the Japanese hadn't invented them, yet!

When you look at the patent pic it looks as if it follows common auto practice of separate sump alhough in this case its half the crankcase
I read the other day that Suzuki and Kawasaki never line bored the twins and threes main bearings as one operation.
Where as Yamaaha did and for that reason. Yamaha lab seals dont last in these other bikes without correction of this.
It turns out the rubbers seals are much more forgiving for potential misalignment. Made sense to me.
I think the YR3 was the first Yamaha with horizontal split cases about 1969

[guyhockley]

There was a hilarious story in one of the UK newspapers, years ago, about the decline of the British bike industry. The writer had obviously misunderstood what he had been told. He said that British bikes had vertically split petrol tanks that always leaked and the Japanese had introduced horizontally split tanks to keep the stuff in.

[guyhockley]

When you look at the patent pic it looks as if it follows common auto practice of separate sump alhough in this case its half the crankcase
I read the other day that Suzuki and Kawasaki never line bored the twins and threes main bearings as one operation.
Where as Yamaaha did and for that reason. Yamaha lab seals dont last in these other bikes without correction of this.
It turns out the rubbers seals are much more forgiving for potential misalignment. Made sense to me.
I think the YR3 was the first Yamaha with horizontal split cases about 1969

There was or is a website about a bloke racing an early Suzuki twin. At one point he had the cases line-bored to take larger, Yamaha main bearings. If I remember right the poor machinist had a bit of bother because the cast in iron/steel inserts were all over the place.

[guyhockley]

Not quite how I remembered...

http://www.t20suzuki.com/racing.htm#TZcrank

[Frits Overmars]

Seen in the Farcebook group '2Stroke research & development': the RSW125 8-Valve. A dazzling percentage of visitors sang the praise of the oval-piston Honda without even noticing the Aprilia engine underneath. I hesitated between laughing and weeping.
340976 340975

[guyhockley]

9 valve, surely?

[husaberg]

Sad to read today the John Trease had died in OCT
340994
For those unaware just how fast his classic racer Harley was
have a look here.
In later years he obviously tidied up the bike got rid of the small peanut tank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BGpdneSC2Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg9VodWGxZ0
He also build many other bikes including one that holds a Bonneville record

This is how it looked in the early years
340991

Later on

340992340993

[guyhockley]

Sad to read today the John Trease had died in OCT
340994
For those unaware just how fast his classic racer Harley was
have a look here.
In later years he obviously tidied up the bike got rid of the small peanut tank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BGpdneSC2Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg9VodWGxZ0
He also build many other bikes including one that holds a Bonneville record

This is how it looked in the early years
340991

Later on

340992340993

I was unaware, full stop. Goes a bit! One of the world's fastest featherbeds? The racer in the video has MPS-PF 1350 on the fairing, so I presume that refers to the LSR class.
Couldn't find much online, but Trease Race Engineering have a minimal Facebook page and there's a video on there of a custom framed,girder forked(!?), V-twin that he rode round Australia and raced at Lake Gairdner...

[husaberg]

I was unaware, full stop. Goes a bit! One of the world's fastest featherbeds? The racer in the video has MPS-PF 1350 on the fairing, so I presume that refers to the LSR class.
Couldn't find much online, but Trease Race Engineering have a minimal Facebook page and there's a video on there of a custom framed,girder forked(!?), V-twin that he rode round Australia and raced at Lake Gairdner...

His son carries on Trease engineering.
If i come accross the early write up i will post it.
Most versions had a beefed up sportster Frame and doubled up sportster drums.
Alcohol fuel of course and float bowls of a strongberg carb
It certainly did go hard to imagine a same class bike reeling them in faster.
I see Patrick Godet has also died.

[WilDun]

Not quite how I remembered...

http://www.t20suzuki.com/racing.htm#TZcrank

Now if only I had all that info in the late sixties when I rode my T20! …………. then on the other hand, remembering the spindly forks and the fast fading drum brakes and banana frame, I'd probably be dead by now …….. look what happened to all my namesakes, (not on Suzukis though) - Of course not forgetting Ron Grant and Geoff Perry - they both rode the T20. :facepalm:

[husaberg]

Now if only I had all that info in the late sixties when I rode my T20! …………. then on the other hand, remembering the spindly forks and the fast fading drum brakes and banana frame, I'd probably be dead by now …….. look what happened to all my namesakes, (not on Suzukis though) - Of course not forgetting Ron Grant and Geoff Perry - they both rode the T20. :facepalm:

Mac McDairmid who was a journalist built a T250 and Won the Classic IOM TT on it in the mid 80's it cost about 500 pounds.
It wast particularly classic as it had Benelli 2c forks and brake and a GT250 frame and a later tank off a TDC Yam but it won
Pretty sure i have posted about it before.
I have
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=5013&attachmentid=319909
There are some nice pics of two original TR250 there as well.
Steve Roberts i understand has made a fair few Replica frames
But most here used to add the curved loops Suzuki should have put in, in the first place.

[pete376403]

His son carries on Trease engineering.
If i come accross the early write up i will post it.
Most versions had a beefed up sportster Frame and doubled up sportster drums.
Alcohol fuel of course and float bowls of a strongberg carb
It certainly did go hard to imagine a same class bike reeling them in faster.
I see Patrick Godet has also died.

Point of Order Mr Speaker! - Amal GP or SU carb float chambers (Strombergs are more like a CV carb with integral concentric style bowls)


And Patrick Godet??? How will I get my Egli Vincent now?

[husaberg]

Point of Order Mr Speaker! - Amal GP or SU carb float chambers (Strombergs are more like a CV carb with integral concentric style bowls)


And Patrick Godet??? How will I get my Egli Vincent now?

Have a look at the pic the black and white one its off a VC Valient i believe.
The carbs were concetrics
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301822
341058341059
God knows what the remote float ones are on the Featherbed one they look massive. they look like fuel filters off a truck.
341060

[pete376403]

All the 6 cyl Valiants I worked on were 2 barrel Carter downdraught carbs (apart from the E49 but that was something special). The float bowls in the coloured pic on second look I am sure are Amal GP. http://amalcarb.co.uk/float-chambers/type-14-remote-chambers/remote-float-chamber.html

[husaberg]

All the 6 cyl Valiants I worked on were 2 barrel Carter downdraught carbs (apart from the E49 but that was something special). The float bowls in the coloured pic on second look I am sure are Amal GP. http://amalcarb.co.uk/float-chambers/type-14-remote-chambers/remote-float-chamber.html

looks way big to be normal gp.
Here is one on a manx
341066341067
but as i said i was talking about the earlier version mounted under the modified concentrics.
one of the carter carbs had a found semi separate bowl.
it might be one of them?


341065341068

[ken seeber]

His son carries on Trease engineering.

I see Patrick Godet has also died.

Hooser, stop posting all this shit from blokes who are dying/dead...….some of us are immortal you know, hope so anyway... :violin:

[guyhockley]

but as i said i was talking about the earlier version mounted under the modified concentrics.
one of the carter carbs had a found semi separate bowl.
it might be one of them?

Concentrics with early Valiant float chambers it says on:

https://hamishcooper.blogspot.com/2011/09/ancient-and-modern.html?m=1#!

[husaberg]

Concentrics with early Valiant float chambers it says on:

https://hamishcooper.blogspot.com/2011/09/ancient-and-modern.html?m=1#!

Great stuff and saves me having to find it. Its a great last line in that.
Appologies So it seems they are carter.I found a nice pic of one of a mustang 6.
https://www.dhgate.com/product/ros-1970-carb-carb-for-ford-fairlane-mustang/421346932.html
The only carter carbs i can remember just looked like a holley.
Actually what were the std not sport one barrell carbs on the old MK1 and escorts.were those a fordmoto autocraft carter copy? All mine only had Webbers.
He mentions modified oiling which to me says mini sump and a reversed oiling which i think the XR750 ran.
All Treases stuff was great aussie bush engine engineering.
Still think those later ones were far to big to be off a GP carb any ideas anyone?
Actually looking at the pic again it almost looks like it has an SU carb on the rear of the Colour Pic
looking at their webpage they do a 3 inch diameter float bowl
plus looking at the tops 99 degree feed it looks to be the same
341072
341071

Hooser, stop posting all this shit from blokes who are dying/dead...….some of us are immortal you know, hope so anyway... :violin:
I will text you a warning first if i see any for you Ken

[guyhockley]

We had a V8 two stroke, now here's a V6. In a bike this time.

[pritch]

I don't know if this has been featured before but I'm not checking 173 pages to find out. This is the first photo of this engine that I've come across, lots of pics of bike with fairing, engine pics not so much.

Honda RC116, 50cc twin, 22,000RPM. I'd always assumed this to be a parallel twin, apparently not.

[Grumph]

Perkins in the UK did something very similar in the 50's. Drawing and pics in Irvings 2 stroke book - which i've misplaced.

Friend of my father's had a Perkins 40HP with this setup. Went quite well too.

Found the book. Sorry bout the poor pics. Valves operated from cam rings each side of the center main.
Valve seats are neoprene. Quiet operation, don't corrode during long periods of sitting with valves open - and in the crankcase,not exposed to high heat.

[Grumph]

I don't know if this has been featured before but I'm not checking 173 pages to find out. This is the first photo of this engine that I've come across, lots of pics of bike with fairing, engine pics not so much.

Honda RC116, 50cc twin, 22,000RPM. I'd always assumed this to be a parallel twin, apparently not.

Just an unfortunate angle of the pic. It's a parallel twin all right.

[husaberg]

I don't know if this has been featured before but I'm not checking 173 pages to find out. This is the first photo of this engine that I've come across, lots of pics of bike with fairing, engine pics not so much.

Honda RC116, 50cc twin, 22,000RPM. I'd always assumed this to be a parallel twin, apparently not.

It is, from that pic though the tops of the heads being widely splayed DOHC makes it look like a V twin
But if you look lower the cylinders are parallel
look at the head of the RC166
341120

Here is the insides of a RC116
341121341122341123341124341126

[Grumph]

How things have chamged...Those heads are pure 1914 Peugeot - wide valve angles and no squish.
Post Cosworth, you'd do them quite differently.

[Frits Overmars]

They had about as much squish area as a Cosworth head, though not yet the compact Cosworth combustion chamber shape, due to the Honda's wide valve angles.
341127

[husaberg]

How things have chamged...Those heads are pure 1914 Peugeot - wide valve angles and no squish.
Post Cosworth, you'd do them quite differently.


They had about as much squish area as a Cosworth head, though not yet the compact Cosworth combustion chamber shape, due to the Honda's wide valve angles.
341127

Honda went with the wide spaced valves because they needed the airflow between the cams to cool the air cooled head.
Every 4V engine from the 851 to the Britten had a Cossy copy head design.
The cossys from memory ran less than 30 degrees advance the hondas about 50 +

[guyhockley]

There were some early prototypes of the RR Merlin with inlets at 45° but they went with the flat head version for production, according to various aero engine books.
Wonder if there were other engines with narrow valve angles?
My wife's Opel 16 valve engine looks like it has a flat head, 4 valves and Heron type pistons (from looking at a picture in the manual, haven't had to look at the hardware)

[guyhockley]

Found the book. Sorry bout the poor pics. Valves operated from cam rings each side of the center main.
Valve seats are neoprene. Quiet operation, don't corrode during long periods of sitting with valves open - and in the crankcase,not exposed to high heat.

I've never managed to even get a look at Irving's two stroke book. Just did a search for a copy and one of the cover pictures that came up seemed to show the Perkins.

https://www.amazon.com/Two-Stroke-Power-Units-Design-Application/dp/B0007DNEC6#immersive-view_1551623931555

The Perkins and Martin layouts look virtually identical...

[guyhockley]

Mac McDairmid who was a journalist built a T250 and Won the Classic IOM TT on it in the mid 80's it cost about 500 pounds.
It wast particularly classic as it had Benelli 2c forks and brake and a GT250 frame and a later tank off a TDC Yam but it won
Pretty sure i have posted about it before.
I have
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=5013&attachmentid=319909
There are some nice pics of two original TR250 there as well.
Steve Roberts i understand has made a fair few Replica frames
But most here used to add the curved loops Suzuki should have put in, in the first place.

Most European racers of Suzuki twins, 250 and 500, just put in straight braces.
I once spent a day in the company of Terry Shepherd, back when he was building his Suzuki based TZ alternative.
Very interesting bloke with lots to tell, technical and gossip!
Danny Pullen from the Isle of Man had one of the Suzukis, at least one of the cast frames and the original patterns. He was involved in a joint project with some french bloke to produce more frames but I don't know what came of it.

[husaberg]

Most European racers of Suzuki twins, 250 and 500, just put in straight braces.
I once spent a day in the company of Terry Shepherd, back when he was building his Suzuki based TZ alternative.
Very interesting bloke with lots to tell, technical and gossip!
Danny Pullen from the Isle of Man had one of the Suzukis, at least one of the cast frames and the original patterns. He was involved in a joint project with some french bloke to produce more frames but I don't know what came of it.

Way back i posted the Shepherd WC not sure where.

[ken seeber]

Electrical theory as per Sir Joseph Lucas

Positive ground depends on proper circuit function which is the transmission of negative ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke".
Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work.
We know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of an electrical circuit, it stops working.

This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing.
For example, if one places a copper bar across the terminals of a battery, prodigious quantities of smoke are liberated and the battery shortly ceases to function.
In addition, if one observes smoke escaping from an electrical component such as a Lucas voltage regulator, it will also be observed that the component no longer functions.

The logic is elementary and inescapable!

The function of the wiring harness is to conduct the smoke from one device to another. When the wiring springs a leak and lets all the smoke out of the system, nothing works afterward.
Starter motors were considered unsuitable for British motorcycles for some time largely because they consumed large quantities of smoke, requiring very unsightly large wires.
It has been reported that Lucas electrical components are possibly more prone to electrical leakage than their Bosch, Japanese or American counterparts. Experts point out that this is because Lucas is British, and all things British leak. British engines leak oil, British shock absorbers, hydraulic forks and disk brake systems leak fluid, British tyres leak air and British Intelligence leaks national defence secrets.

Therefore, it follows that British electrical systems must leak smoke.

Once again, the logic is clear and inescapable.

In conclusion, the basic concept of transmission of electrical energy in the form of smoke provides a logical explanation of the mysteries of electrical components especially British units manufactured by Joseph Lucas, Ltd.

This has been referred to as the smoke theory when the smoke comes out it is finished, cooked or done for.

Also remember: "A gentleman does not motor about after dark."
Joseph Lucas "The Prince of Darkness" 1842-1903

A few Lucas quips:
The Lucas motto: "Get home before dark."
Lucas is the patent holder for the short circuit.
Lucas - Inventor of the first intermittent wiper.
Lucas - Inventor of the self-dimming headlamp.
The three-position Lucas switch--DIM, FLICKER and OFF.
The other three switch settings--SMOKE, SMOLDER and IGNITE.
The Original Anti-Theft Device - Lucas Electrics.

If Lucas made guns, wars would not start

Back in the '70s, Lucas decided to diversify its product line and began manufacturing vacuum cleaners. It was the only product they offered which did not suck.

Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A: Because Lucas makes their refrigerators.

[pete376403]

There were some early prototypes of the RR Merlin with inlets at 45° but they went with the flat head version for production, according to various aero engine books.
Wonder if there were other engines with narrow valve angles?
My wife's Opel 16 valve engine looks like it has a flat head, 4 valves and Heron type pistons (from looking at a picture in the manual, haven't had to look at the hardware)
Weslake speedway engines had a very narrow valve angle. They were a pushrod 4v. The Jawa 4v was DOHC, pretty narrow angle as well, both had almost completely flat top pistons

[husaberg]

Weslake speedway engines had a very narrow valve angle. They were a pushrod 4v. The Jawa 4v was DOHC, pretty narrow angle as well, both had almost completely flat top pistons

(Neil Neville? )Street or something converted them years before Jawa offered them not sure if it was a Weslake or Cosworth copy.
the Weslake head came from about the mid 60's from F1.
Not sure what year the first Rickman 8v hear was or the first OHC they did first one they did but pretty similar years.
341151
looking at the net it seem the Weslake engine came form a BRM project.

While driving for the British Racing Motors (BRM) Formula One team in 1960, Gurney became acquainted with BRM engineer Aubrey Woods, who then moved to Weslake Engineering. Through Woods, Gurney became aware of a Weslake engine research project funded by Shell Oil. This two-cylinder, 500-cc test engine produced impressive horsepower, and Gurney extrapolated the test engine's output to a 3-liter, V12 Grand Prix engine, potentially putting out up to 450 horsepower, and he commissioned Weslake to build the engine
looks like they never won a race. edit No they won one race only in F1
looks like Harry westlake was in volved in the RR merlin devlopment Also 4v.

From memory Goddens worked for westlake and Valentine did also they also went out on their own.
341152

here is a nice bit on Harry westlake love the bit where he put Joe craig n his place.
https://thevintagent.com/2017/05/11/book-review-lucky-all-my-life/

i was trying to find this one based on the Clymax racing engine i think
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/171300-Oddball-engines-and-prototypes?p=1131074909#post1131074909

[husaberg]

I found these on a dredge
Honda F1 devlopment
Note the plugged Gudgeon.
341153341154341155341156341157341158

[husaberg]

rods airbox341163
341161341162

Forgot about the Millyard 6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxsRHqPF5os
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdcFD7Yoqb4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkeOxRzsmXM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o73n5YoNs7w

[husaberg]

Ktm250 powered SS50
Love Chris walkers words at the end. Hes a former 500GP rider
not sure who the other rider is its doesnt seem to be nation or Haslam and it sure isnt hislop? that only leaves John McGuinness?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl-dW1v4v78

[WilDun]

……………………………………………. Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work.
We know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of an electrical circuit, it stops working...…………………………………….


In France, in the Eighteenth century, the Montgolfier Brothers already knew about the power of smoke they flew on the stuff (or so they thought!) in their new fangled balloon . - in fact just like a lot of guys today who still fly around on smoke! - they don't know much, but they seem to be quite happy!
Then of course we musn't forget our favourite engine which has given us much pleasure over the years …….. and here, smoke must definitely be an indicator of better things to come! - Why does it keep escaping from our two strokes - maybe we need better seals? :scratch: :laugh:
It's the #1 cause of it's demise in bikes. Should still be ok in racing I guess, but not on the everyday road machine!


Lucas can't just go on taking all the credit for everything!

[husaberg]

I cant remeber where we were talking about hw Milyard makes the engines and the welding
but here he says he uses madrels vapour blasts the cases pre-heats and cslow cools and it details how he "line bores" them at home. which is quite intersting
I love the bit where he says it will be easy to add those extra cylinders
341240341241
He even details how he fixes the mating surfaces

[guyhockley]

Apparently, there's a couple of blokes in the UK building Yam LC triple cases to order, made round about 15 so far.

[husaberg]

Apparently, there's a couple of blokes in the UK building Yam LC triple cases to order, made round about 15 so far.

Just like Rudi Kurth did 50 odd years earlier.
I had a poke about and there were a heap back in the day.

[guyhockley]

Yeah, I didn't mean that it was new, just that they've sort of "productionised" it. Less engineering involved with the LC separate cylinders.
Did Rudi Kurth build triples for other people? Not sure if he built Yamaha NVs ones or they just picked his brains.
Zeger sold complete bikes back in the day and more recently Paul Allender was selling Scitsu parts.
There's some disagreement over who built the first one, an Australian or a Brit, I believe. Got a Kiwi candidate?

[husaberg]

Yeah, I didn't mean that it was new, just that they've sort of "productionised" it.

Yeah i got that, do you have the CB write up of the LC700?

[guyhockley]

Think I've got a few like that... Want me to post them or do you already have it?
Or did you mean this one which is still online?

https://classic-motorbikes.net/yamaha-rd700-street-special/

[husaberg]

Think I've got a few like that... Want me to post them or do you already have it?
Or did you mean this one which is still online?

https://classic-motorbikes.net/yamaha-rd700-street-special/

Cheers i always thought it was Lc based
I found a pic of the case.
Where i got it from has pics of another way of doing it but i might have to register to find out.
http://www.aircooledrdclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=30740.0
341275
I wonder if a rudi kurth style but on both sides might be easier to accomidate.
341276

[guyhockley]

I think the cleverest triple conversion is the DIKO 500. He put the ignition on the right hand side with a belt drive water pump off that, machined his own bolt-on case for the left with a blind main bearing housing. So his motor should be narrower and need moving over a bit less.

http://zweitakte.de/projekte/diko/tz500.htm

[guyhockley]

This is from a book that was way too big for the scanner so it's chopped up a bit oddly and you have to jump backwards and forwards to read each column from top to bottom. Sorry!

[guyhockley]

It was a german book translated into english called "Custom Bikes" but it was mainly full of racers?!

[guyhockley]

Cheers i always thought it was Lc based
I found a pic of the case.
Where i got it from has pics of another way of doing it but i might have to register to find out.
http://www.aircooledrdclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=30740.0
341275
I wonder if a rudi kurth style but on both sides might be easier to accomidate.
341276

I have loads more 3 and 4 cylinder stuff I could post...if my computer hadn't just died!
I've seen a 500 done from 2 MZ250s which had the left gearbox case with a slot cut in the back for the chain to come out.

I think you're absolutely right that an extra pot on each side would be a more elegant way of doing it.

I have given it some thought in the past and have come up with a couple of different ideas but I'm not ready to share (which probably means everybody else has already thought of them)

[190mech]

Another possible clean 2 stroke,,Strato-Charged engine,it uses a 2 barrel staged carb,top barrel channels air through a slotted piston to allow a puff of clean air to help purge the cylinder,thus reduced unburned mixture in the exhaust..Ive got a string trimmer in the garage with this system,,the darn thing doesnt smoke at full throttle with a 32 to 1 mix..its said no cats are needed in the exhaust either..
http://www.zenoah.com/int/company/innovations/

[WilDun]

I haven't been here for a while and just checked out the Zenoah, it does seem pretty ordinary (despite the sales pitch!) but I know too that Zenoah is a well respected engine maker! I still haven't got my head around the carb/porting arrangement though (takes a while with me these days!).


I also would like to know a little more about this bike - I believe it to be a (pretty unusual) works 500 Jawa. I do remember Franta Stasny riding a similar works 350 in the sixties (or was it a 500?) - it had conventional teleforks though. The leading link arrangement may have improved the handling but it sure didn't do much in the prettyness department! ........ maybe someone can tell me more?

[/ATTACH]341703341704341705341706

[husaberg]

Posted for Flet
341708341709341710341711341712

The V4 250
341713

[husaberg]

Derbi narrow angle twin 1971 version
341715341716
check out the lower part of the float bowl
341717341718

1967 version

[Grumph]

Looks like heavy float chamber castings - to change the natural vibration frequency of the solid mounted carbs ?
Wonder if the carb bodies and mounts stood up to the extra weight...

The early version has swill pots fitted which is not common. Main float chamber is very far forward of the mainjet, the additional swill pot effectively makes the mainjet central in a "virtual bowl". Should eliminate problems caused by fuel surge on acceleration or braking.

I remember Jennings writing about adding weight to Dellorto SS1 float chambers to stop fuel frothing problems on a 250 Aermacchi single.

[husaberg]

Looks like heavy float chamber castings - to change the natural vibration frequency of the solid mounted carbs ?
Wonder if the carb bodies and mounts stood up to the extra weight...

The early version has swill pots fitted which is not common. Main float chamber is very far forward of the mainjet, the additional swill pot effectively makes the mainjet central in a "virtual bowl". Should eliminate problems caused by fuel surge on acceleration or braking.

I remember Jennings writing about adding weight to Dellorto SS1 float chambers to stop fuel frothing problems on a 250 Aermacchi single.

I think its a bigger well for the float bowls.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=341717&d=1556606425

the edge make it almost look like a fabrication although it seems to be no weld near the std bowl

[Frits Overmars]

I also would like to know a little more about this bike - I believe it to be a (pretty unusual) works 500 Jawa.
[/ATTACH]341703341704341705341706I have always appreciated Jawa designs, which is more than I can say for this contraption. I find it hard to believe that it came out of the Jawa factory looking like this.
So I doubt that it is a works Jawa.

[Grumph]

I have always appreciated Jawa designs, which is more than I can say for this contraption. I find it hard to believe that it came out of the Jawa factory looking like this.
So I doubt that it is a works Jawa.

So do I. The engine is a road single cam version. You can see the flanges on the RHS of the crankcase for the road motor outer cover.
My guess is a home built special - with a nod to the works in the use of square tubing, lol.

Ken MacIntosh built a much nicer one for a customer. I've seen it written up in I think a Classis Bike mag Husa.
I remember going with my father to look at a road 500 Jawa thet he was negotiating to buy off a notorious hoarder here in ChCh.
The sale fell through which was a pity as it was a nice rarity in NZ.

[Grumph]

I think its a bigger well for the float bowls.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=341717&d=1556606425

the edge make it almost look like a fabrication although it seems to be no weld near the std bowl

I reckon they're a pair of one-off castings. Looks to me like the pattern for the chamber has simply had a ring added to it.
They've been cleaned up after casting by machining the OD - but there's still a ragged edge there.
Given how hard a stepped pattern for the inside would be, I'm picking the add-ons are solid.

[husaberg]

I reckon they're a pair of one-off castings. Looks to me like the pattern for the chamber has simply had a ring added to it.
They've been cleaned up after casting by machining the OD - but there's still a ragged edge there.
Given how hard a stepped pattern for the inside would be, I'm picking the add-ons are solid.

I found some more pics
i are not convinced either way but as we have access to Jan he will know as it appears the IRZ carbs were used into his era with Derbi and mabye others. ")
341719341720341721341722


That is true Frits.
But I had 2 cylinders cast with the bottom of the exhaust as high as the transfers top.
The last 5 years all our exhaust ducts were CNC machined.
With many variations!
During the last year the exhaust bottom was 3mm above BDC.
Paging Jan

[WilDun]

I have always appreciated Jawa designs, which is more than I can say for this contraption. I find it hard to believe that it came out of the Jawa factory looking like this.
So I doubt that it is a works Jawa.

I think those pics originated in Australia, where seems that it's up for sale at the moment - be in quick or you'll miss it! - Still as I said somewhere else a while ago .... I hate to see anyone's dream going down the gurgler, good or bad. ........ At least they tried and made an effort!

[Grumph]

I think those pics originated in Australia, where seems that it's up for sale at the moment - be in quick or you'll miss it! - Still as I said somewhere else a while ago .... I hate to see anyone's dream going down the gurgler, good or bad. ........ At least they tried and made an effort!

Fair enough Will. Either someone will buy it for what it is now or as the basis for a more conventional build. Some good bits in there.
Like the curate's egg - good in parts, LOL.

We've had similar things come up for sale here in NZ. I hate to see well - known NZ specials gutted for maybe a 7R or manx engine and box. The history is lost.

[WilDun]

Fair enough Will. Either someone will buy it for what it is now or as the basis for a more conventional build. Some good bits in there.
Like the curate's egg - good in parts, LOL.

We've had similar things come up for sale here in NZ. I hate to see well - known NZ specials gutted for maybe a 7R or manx engine and box. The history is lost.

Yes This sort of thing should definitely be preserved as near as possible to how it was originally conceived, (no matter what it might look like now!).
Usually these gems are left behind (under the bench) by some guy who was totally misunderstood by the family and when he passed on, the remaining family couldn't see beyond having a tidy garage! so out they went! They were after all only built to make a dream tangible if nothing else ......... Perhaps I'm drawing too much from my own experiences - I'm misunderstood too you see!- :weep: :brick: :facepalm: :violin:

But, here's a case in point!
He could be a great designer by now, a stuntman, a comedian, or manager of a big Corporation - One just never knows! - does one?
341752

Look at a certain guy on our TV ads - He has a very successful Real Estate sales company and likes to be in all his his ads, the most recent one being about him turning up to the office on his road bike all immaculately dressed etc. - how many people would write him off as just another poser? - but then, how many people would realize that he was 350cc NZ champion (twice?). - you just never know! (probably wasn't him who built the machine in the picture though!).

[Ocean1]

Motion to evict WilDun from KB henceforth due to savage and unprovoked visual assault on members delicate technical sensibilities!

[WilDun]

Motion to evict WilDun from KB henceforth due to savage and unprovoked visual assault on members delicate technical sensibilities!

EH? - Translation into modern English please! - That's how I was taught at school, but I dropped out and bought myself a bike (motorbike that is) instead! - Since then, I have always thought that was much better decision than staying on to learn bloody Shakespeare! - and ........ I'm really a very sweet and gentle person and those are all lies! so there! ....... I don't know - honestly!

Seriously, - You must admit that pic. does have a certain " no Bullshit" element about it!

[Ocean1]

Seriously, - You must admit that pic. does have a certain " no Bullshit" element about it!

Who can tell? You'd never see it for the wall to wall birdshit.

[WilDun]

:killingme:

I must admit that it could have a slight birdshit element about it!

[husaberg]

Yes This sort of thing should definitely be preserved as near as possible to how it was originally conceived, (no matter what it might look like now look like now!).
Usually left behind under the bench by some guy who was totally misunderstood by the family and when he passed on, the remaining family couldn't see beyond having a tidy garage! so out they went! They were after all only built to make a dream tangible if nothing else ......... Perhaps I'm drawing too much from my own experiences - I'm misunderstood too you see!- :weep: :brick: :facepalm: :violin:

Case in Point!
He could be a great designer by now, a stuntman, a comedian, or manager of a big Corporation - One just never knows! - does one?


I mean look at a certain guy on our TV ads - He has a very successful Real Estate sales company and likes to be in all his his ads, the most recent one being about him turning up to the office on his road bike all immaculately dressed etc. - how many people would write him off as just another poser? - but then, how many people would realize that he was 350cc NZ champion (twice?). - you just never know! (probably wasn't him who built the machine in the picture though!).

Is that from an albatross colony or something cause it covered in avian Guano

[WilDun]

Is that from an albatross colony or something cause it covered in avian Guano

To give the guy some sympathy, what was his objective?
My guess is - he was a young guy (probably a young teenager) who had some inventive thoughts in mind, time on his hands and maybe a spare Russian boxer twin lying around.
He probably had an idea of using the back end /shaft drive of that as a front end for his own FWD special and used what he had lying around the farm.
So, with his Dad's welder a hammer and a hacksaw, he gave it a go!
Good on him, - he had plenty of initiative, maybe he lacked some skills and materials, but he did try and probably eventually moved on to greater things, learning by his mistakes and by managing to withstand the inevitable shit slinging he would encounter as he progressed, becoming stronger for that! ........ as always, I could be wrong.

[Grumph]

Personally, I think he's taken the wheel interchangabilty thing a tad far....

[husaberg]

Personally, I think he's taken the wheel interchangabilty thing a tad far....

Sure remended me of a mountain Goat frame at home pretty sure the front end was similar i think it way have had enterchangable wheels.
I have no idea what implement the tyres were off but i suspect a rotary How or similar, i think it may have been disc brake front and rear, but the welding was far better.

341762
this was closer to the version we had
341763

[ken seeber]

Maybe he was going to make it into a 2WD bike ??

[WilDun]

Maybe he was going to make it into a 2WD bike ??

OK, ok Ken - I said FWD (meaning Front Wheel Drive!) - now, I think that exonerates me, but ...... What're we gonna do about Husa? (Hooser to you) ;)

[husaberg]

OK, ok Ken - I said FWD (meaning Front Wheel Drive!) - now, I think that exonerates me, but ...... What're we gonna do about Husa? (Hooser to you) ;)

The welding still looks like avian guano on second inspection.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=341752&d=1556838497

Although i missed he was also using the top of the fork tubes on the first inspection.

Reminds me of this
341770
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2168061/French-electrician-stranded-Moroccan-desert-rebuilt-wrecked-car-motorbike-drove-civilisation.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=hFMWgSgB4sg

[WilDun]

Sure remended me of a mountain Goat frame at home pretty sure the front end was similar i think it way have had enterchangable wheels.
I have no idea what implement the tyres were off but i suspect a rotary How or similar, i think it may have been disc brake front and rear, but the welding was far better.

341762
this was closer to the version we had
341763

Pretty sure (but could be wrong) it was a Dutch guy I used to work for, designed the Mountain Goat
I was told that he, (Harry Zwezerijnen) designed the Mountain Goat and also the first monsoon bucket for firefighting from helicopters. ....... not entirely certain about that though! -
someone else may know more!

[WilDun]

Reminds me of this


341777

Hold it! ..... Hold it! - that's the guy! ..... that's the guy who built the machine we have been talking about! .... that's him! ...... or is that his dad ( his "pere") ?? :laugh:

........... PHUCTIFINO! :scratch:

[jamathi]

I found some more pics
i are not convinced either way but as we have access to Jan he will know as it appears the IRZ carbs were used into his era with Derbi and mabye others. ")
341719341720341721341722


Paging Jan


Yes, DERBI used them.

[husaberg]

Yes, DERBI used them.
Thanks Jan, So do you know if the big float bowls extensions were they extra capacity or were they weights?
341881341882341883

[WilDun]

FRITS,
This thread has been hibernating for some time (over 3 months) and I hadn't really intended to visit it either (I had run out of material) and I think most of us have defected to Facebook), but I felt that I had to show you this, which suddenly sprang up from somewhere - it's a better description of the Veselovsky rotary engine which I tried to describe to you quite a way back and you said you hadn't been able to find it - here it is anyway for you to check out (If you ever happen to be passing here on your way from that evil den ..... Facebook!) :msn-wink: 342903

(Oh dear, slight hiccup - doesn't like PDF files! - will try to remedy ASAP)

Here is a link to the patent instead ......... https://russianpatents.com/patent/207/2078221.html

[tjbw]

Will, the PDF downloaded without problem.

Is there any interesting discussion on farcebook?

[WilDun]

Will, the PDF downloaded without problem.

Is there any interesting discussion on farcebook?

Good to see that someone looks in now and again! and i didn't expect the PDF to work! - guess Frits has gone on to pastures new now - we may have to downsize here and therefore my workshop is on the way out!
Unfortunately I normally only use Facebook Messenger now and again to keep in touch with family over there and Aus etc. but seldom talk to anyone about bikes or talk any bullshit as I have a habit of saying the wrong thing - the people on there aren't used to me and I can't be bothered trying to make them understand me all over again, upsetting sensitive souls in the process !
I find Facebook a bit disjointed and even confusing sometimes - it's so easy to press the wrong buttons and stuff everything up if you're not careful (and there's even more dickheads on there than on this forum!!).
This thread went on a long time and I enjoyed it, but I guess all good things will end sometime - maybe it will rejuvenate itself - who knows!

[Frits Overmars]

FRITS, this thread has been hibernating for some time (over 3 months) and I hadn't really intended to visit it either (I had run out of material) and I think most of us have defected to Facebook), but I felt that I had to show you this, which suddenly sprang up from somewhere - it's a better description of the Veselovsky rotary engine which I tried to describe to you quite a way back and you said you hadn't been able to find it - here it is anyway for you to check out (If you ever happen to be passing here on your way from that evil den ..... Facebook!) :msn-wink: Thanks Will. I check this thread on a daily basis (as I do with Ese, Chassis and Foundry) before I visit Facebook (or Fakebook, or Farcebook, pick your prefered spelling).
Yes, this Veselovsky rotary engine clearly resembles the LiquidPiston engine.
https://vimeo.com/64911927
https://vimeo.com/99002635
https://vimeo.com/163543761
https://www.google.nl/search?9=liquidpiston&rlz=1C1DVCC_enNL345&oq=liquidpiston&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i61.9823j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e785YnDmq0
342905342906

Your PDF also offers a fine survey of other rotary engine systems. Thanks again.

[Frits Overmars]

I find Facebook a bit disjointed and even confusing sometimes... and there's even more dickheads on there than on this forum!
342907
I find Facebook completely disjointed and confusing and I hate being disturbed by Facebook Messenger. But I must admit I met some interesting people there that I might not have met otherwise. Still, I prefer email.

[husaberg]

342907
I find Facebook completely disjointed and confusing and I hate being disturbed by Facebook Messenger. But I must admit I met some interesting people there that I might not have met otherwise. Still, I prefer email.

I only use facebook to harvest the occasional photo.
One thing you could ask you though is where is do you know where the techgp site, as i used to have it bookmarked on a previous computer but i cant find it now.
I have tried reverse searching but i still cant find it.
there was a heap of photos on a webpage but i have no idea where it was.
they had some wvery nice pics of cagiva and patton and other internals

[190mech]

WilDun,
Thanks for kickstarting this thread back to life again!I check it daily due to its interesting info..The LiquidPiston 70 that Frits posted seems pretty lame per 2 stroke scooter standards,but the concept is very good,perhaps it could be polished into something useable in the future...

[Frits Overmars]

I only use facebook to harvest the occasional photo ... do you know where the techgp site, as i used to have it bookmarked on a previous computer but i cant find it now.I haven't come across a Techgp site on Facebook, but below are three groups that can be interesting from time to time, with links that should put you somewhere in the middle of them.
2 Stroke research & development : https://www.facebook.com/groups/671081149638729/2396515293761964/
Motorcycle suspensions and kinetics : https://www.facebook.com/groups/moto.kinetics/2388419701417059/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/moto.kinetics/2388419701417059/?)
Experimental Motorcycle Association : https://www.facebook.com/groups/105572222948183/

But overall Facebook is terrible: not chronological, not searchable, and lots of idiots posting rubbish that has nothing to do with the groups they're contaminating.

[OopsClunkThud]

I only use facebook to harvest the occasional photo.
One thing you could ask you though is where is do you know where the techgp site, as i used to have it bookmarked on a previous computer but i cant find it now.
I have tried reverse searching but i still cant find it.
there was a heap of photos on a webpage but i have no idea where it was.
they had some wvery nice pics of cagiva and patton and other internals

found this site with that image on it

https://motopitwalk.wordpress.com/2014/11/02/modenas-krv3-500cc-1997/

if you have some of the images, you can google with "search by image" to find sites that have the same image.

[husaberg]

I haven't come across a Techgp site on Facebook, but below are three groups that can be interesting from time to time, with links that should put you somewhere in the middle of them.
2 Stroke research & development : https://www.facebook.com/groups/671081149638729/2396515293761964/
Motorcycle suspensions and kinetics : https://www.facebook.com/groups/moto.kinetics/2388419701417059/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/moto.kinetics/2388419701417059/?)
Experimental Motorcycle Association : https://www.facebook.com/groups/105572222948183/

But overall Facebook is terrible: not chronological, not searchable, and lots of idiots posting rubbish that has nothing to do with the groups they're contaminating.
I will have a look thanks.

found this site with that image on it

https://motopitwalk.wordpress.com/2014/11/02/modenas-krv3-500cc-1997/

if you have some of the images, you can google with "search by image" to find sites that have the same image.

Thats what i meant by a reverse search, but for some reason it will not trace back to the original site.
Most are on Heron suzukis site along with some of the pictures and scans i have made myself.
I cant even find the site on the WayBackwhenmachine. that i use to track down defunct sites.

[WilDun]

I can't believe how many people are still around here still looking in - The thread has lasted quite a while!

Probably there is a limit to what can still turn up but it would seem that there is still a lot of interest.

None of the machines which appear here should ever be forgotten, successful or not - they were all the result of a lot of passion, hard work and genius.
It is a pity that many of them were only unsuccessful because the people with the money didn't recognize them because of the fashion at the time and buried under flaky glitzy fashionable stuff which attracted the "look at me" type people ....... unfortunately these people were the ones most easily parted from their cash! - and unfortunately that's the way of the world!

They must not be allowed to disappear completely and after all, a little trickle of almost forgotten stuff is all that is needed to keep this thread alive1

[husaberg]

I am not sure if i actually spilled the beans on the barkerheadless
From memory its the most gawked at picture i have posted
unfortunately its not as clever as we all thought

its simple two Rumi 2 strokes 125cc twins piston ported mounted as a headless design.
not uniflow or anything.
342929
342927342928
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130415632#post1130415632
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130416890#post1130416890

[guyhockley]

Seen the twisted V-twin thing done with Harleys, Hondas, Guzzis and a couple of people were planning to try it with Aprilias, but not seen one of these before.

[WilDun]

Seen the twisted V-twin thing done with Harleys, Hondas, Guzzis and a couple of people were planning to try it with Aprilias, but not seen one of these before.

At first glance I liked the layout but then there is the effect of the torque when you open the throttle!- the knees behind the hot cylinders maybe sometimes gets a bit of a pain. Of course Honda and Guzzi were relatively successful, and hondas 500 was a very long lasting machine and was greatly sought afterin London (as the preferred courier bike!). Not sure about all the conversions though, but great projects no doubt!

[pete376403]

Not sure if this should be here or in the two stroke thread
https://oldmachinepress.com/2014/01/12/nordberg-stationary-radial-engine/

[WilDun]

Not sure if this should be here or in the two stroke thread
https://oldmachinepress.com/2014/01/12/nordberg-stationary-radial-engine/

Very interesting stuff!
Anything engines / mechanical is good here - the 'two stroke thread' is really good, but when this sort of stuff goes on there, it is so overcrowded and busy with performance stuff that this sort of thing will often be overlooked - that is really why this thread came into being ( to allow the more mundane but also very interesting stuff to be noticed and appreciated - not allowed to eventually disappear !).

[WilDun]

.......................the barkerheadless
From memory its the most gawked at picture i have posted
unfortunately its not as clever as we all thought its simple two Rumi 2 strokes 125cc twins piston ported mounted as a headless design.
not uniflow or anything.


Yeah. it's more for glowering at than groping at - can't say I'd lose my head over it! :wacko:

[Michael Moore]

This site was linked to earlier in the thread for something else, but I didn't see a mention of the page with lots of rotary valve engines on it

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/RotaryValveIC/RotaryValveIC.htm

[husaberg]

This site was linked to earlier in the thread for something else, but I didn't see a mention of the page with lots of rotary valve engines on it

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/RotaryValveIC/RotaryValveIC.htm

Off the same site
the jet powered Paddle steamer
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/TRANSPORT/lucyasht/lucyasht.htm

[ceci]

I haven't come across a Techgp site on Facebook, but below are three groups that can be interesting from time to time, with links that should put you somewhere in the middle of them.
2 Stroke research & development : https://www.facebook.com/groups/671081149638729/2396515293761964/
Motorcycle suspensions and kinetics : https://www.facebook.com/groups/moto.kinetics/2388419701417059/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/moto.kinetics/2388419701417059/?)
Experimental Motorcycle Association : https://www.facebook.com/groups/105572222948183/

But overall Facebook is terrible: not chronological, not searchable, and lots of idiots posting rubbish that has nothing to do with the groups they're contaminating.



One I follow and in another I participated.
In which I participated I regret that it is in decline (it has been a long time since we talked about the two-stroke engine). This happens because of the little interest in transforming the two-stroke engine into an ecological engine

[WilDun]

One I follow and in another I participated.
In which I participated I regret that it is in decline (it has been a long time since we talked about the two-stroke engine). This happens because of the little interest in transforming the two-stroke engine into an ecological engine

There is a reason for everything, and in the case of the two stroke engine, it is not being developed any more for general use in motorcycles - that is because it has become unfashionable, having been overcome by pressure from the "Greenies" and this, combined with pressure from the four stroke manufacturers has actually worked!

Also people (especially impressionable young guys (kids?), having too much money to throw around on those expensive four strokes!, has seen the demise of the two stroke in this particular area.

I think that because of the fantastic power/weight ratio, the light aircraft scene etc would favour the two stroke and it could have a good future there.

The fact that there is still the smoking exhaust is still an issue (and that can't be denied) - this will keep the two stroke off the roads (and consequently the racetracks).

The other problem of high fuel consumption is being dealt to by people like Flettner (ie Neil), and his fuel injection system.

I firmly believe that there is a future for the two stroke if it can be used as a constant speed power source for hybrids (ie driving a generator/motor combination) - with the constant speed (running at it's efficient 'sweet spot' revs) it could then be rid it of all the complication of extra bits and pieces required in trying to make it perform over a wide rev range.

How logical that could all be in the case of bikes, I dunno - diehard bikers will probably reject all that and will continue to want to ride old school inefficient 'heaps', only for the sake of being fashionable - reason or sensible engineering doesn't come in to it - just presentation!
Eventually that decision and lack of foresight could bring about the demise of bikes altogether, also their own demise as a group, - all through leaving themselves open to the lawmakers!

This applies to both four stroke and two stroke of course, but the two stroke is gradually becoming a dead duck!.

I do realise it's just another rant (JAR? :rolleyes:) of course, but it may actually have some truths in it!.

[ceci]

The fact that there is still the smoking exhaust is still an issue (and that can't be denied) - this will keep the two stroke off the roads (and consequently the racetracks).

.



The last approach on that facebook page to solve that problem is the use of hydrogen as fuel.
Hydrogen combustion residues are not harmful.
In order to use this fuel successfully, the engines have to be supercharged.
The hard part is overfeeding them and not doubling fuel losses

[Frits Overmars]

The last approach on that facebook page to solve that problem is the use of hydrogen as fuel. Hydrogen combustion residues are not harmful. In order to use this fuel successfully, the engines have to be supercharged.For clean hydrogen combustion you will not only have to carry the fuel, but also the oxygen. Burning hydrogen in a high-pressure air-filled chamber will produce H20 and NOx. And supercharging will gladly contribute to the high pressure.

You don't really believe those videos of some politician drinking water that comes out of a car tailpipe, do you? They don't like drinking nitric acid any more than you and I do, and they're no fools; they are only depending on fools who believe them.

[WilDun]

The last approach on that facebook page to solve that problem is the use of hydrogen as fuel.
Hydrogen combustion residues are not harmful.
In order to use this fuel successfully, the engines have to be supercharged.
The hard part is overfeeding them and not doubling fuel losses

The smoke does not come from the petrol, it comes from the oil in the petrol - the pollutants in the oil are obvious of course - they can be seen, but the pollutants from the fuel are unseen and in order to overcome these problems I think the two stroke will in fact need a total transformation to ever make a comeback - and to think, I was a total convert to two strokes in the sixties - but we ignored the wider picture and concentrated solely on racing, forgetting that the road bikes were the 'bread and butter' !

[lohring]

I'm a huge two stroke fan, but I'm afraid that electric power is on the way to replacing IC engines. Batteries will provide the electricity at the low end while fuel cells will probably be the answer at the high power end. The big two stroke diesels in ships will probably be the last to go. Even motorcycle manufacturers are seriously considering electric power as we traditionalists die off. The IC engine has had a great run, but it's ending.

I recently visited the Newport Car Museum (https://newportcarmuseum.org/). My childhood friend volunteers there. We reminisced about the several Pontiac GTOs he drove in the 60s and 70s as presents from his father, a Pontiac dealer. The only muscle car in the collection from that era to the present that could out accelerate my Tesla Model 3 was the Dodge Demon. Even many of the Corvetts, Cobras, and exotic cars in the collection were slower, not to mention less economical. I think museums are where the great IC cars will end up, like horse drawn carriages. Hobbyists will always own some IC cars, but like horses, they won't be for routine use.

Lohring Miller

[ceci]

For clean hydrogen combustion you will not only have to carry the fuel, but also the oxygen. Burning hydrogen in a high-pressure air-filled chamber will produce H20 and NOx. And supercharging will gladly contribute to the high pressure.

You don't really believe those videos of some politician drinking water that comes out of a car tailpipe, do you? They don't like drinking nitric acid any more than you and I do, and they're no fools; they are only depending on fools who believe them.



I have not seen that video you say.
I who have seen these are (it's no use to you, they are in Spanish. But to me it is)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMtYhftVqoM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_iIFnCoJj0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDCFAc2tJPo

But they say what you said here.

[WilDun]

I'm a huge two stroke fan, but I'm afraid that electric power is on the way to replacing IC engines. Batteries will provide the electricity at the low end while fuel cells will probably be the answer at the high power end. The big two stroke diesels in ships will probably be the last to go. Even motorcycle manufacturers are seriously considering electric power as we traditionalists die off. The IC engine has had a great run, but it's ending.

I recently visited the Newport Car Museum (https://newportcarmuseum.org/). My childhood friend volunteers there. We reminisced about the several Pontiac GTOs he drove in the 60s and 70s as presents from his father, a Pontiac dealer. The only muscle car in the collection from that era to the present that could out accelerate my Tesla Model 3 was the Dodge Demon. Even many of the Corvetts, Cobras, and exotic cars in the collection were slower, not to mention less economical. I think museums are where the great IC cars will end up, like horse drawn carriages. Hobbyists will always own some IC cars, but like horses, they won't be for routine use.

Lohring Miller

Yes I agree that electric power is on the way big time but batteries are still the problem (weight, fire danger, and range) and before someone says they have a long range - the extra weight needed to achieve this is a penalty! (BTW I only suspect that - but don't know that!).
This currently is the case with the racing E bikes - but wouldn't it be great if the two stroke overcame it's "greenie" problems and was used as a lightweight powerplant driving a generator in one of those with batteries being discarded (not being needed for low speeds in this role) - so losing heaps of weight and creating some decent longer races? ...... then everyone will be happy!

Before I forget, - Mazda has been very quiet about their HCCI engine which was supposed to be put into production in their Mazda 3 car - anybody know what is happening there?

[ken seeber]

I’ve been thinking about smoke lately and think that it is not something inherent in the 2 stroke engine, but just the way it passes thru the engine.

My thoughts are that fully combusted oil burns cleanly The key reasoning to this was an observation at Orbital many years ago. This was based on the smoke generation, evident in the exhaust, of the original “rotary” style Orbital engine. What we did to understand this a bit better was to feed raw oil into the intake of a 4 cyl carbureted engine we also had on test at the time. No smoke.

Also, do we see smoke from a racing 2 stroke under full power down a straight. No. This one’s a bit subjective, however we do see clouds of smoke when a 2 stroke bike or kart starts up.

My conclusion is that the smoke we see is due to oil being not fully combusted, mainly as a result of short circuiting out the exhaust (and not following the scavenging path) and then being only partially oxidized by the heat of the exhaust. I’m sure everyone at some stage has poured oil onto an open fire and watched & smelt the smoke.

So, the trick is than to ensure that no oil can readily short circuit out the exhaust. One thing we did at Orbital on the 3 cyl DI 2 stroke auto engine was to incorporate a crankcase drain system. This essentially was a small check valve at the bottom of each crankcase, this feeding through a small passage into the intake (upstream of the reed valve) of the adjacent “leading” cylinder. I guess this had some capacitance such that any accumulated drained oil took a little while to get into the system. Net result was very little or no smoke or even smell.

I think we’ve all seen or been behind a diesel that is badly tuned/overfuelling/dirty injectors or whatever, the smoke can be obnoxious. Obviously incomplete combustion.

[WilDun]

I’ve been thinking about smoke lately and think that it is not something inherent in the 2 stroke engine, but just the way it passes thru the engine.

My thoughts are that fully combusted oil burns cleanly The key reasoning to this was an observation at Orbital many years ago. This was based on the smoke generation, evident in the exhaust, of the original “rotary” style Orbital engine. What we did to understand this a bit better was to feed raw oil into the intake of a 4 cyl carbureted engine we also had on test at the time. No smoke.

Also, do we see smoke from a racing 2 stroke under full power down a straight. No. This one’s a bit subjective, however we do see clouds of smoke when a 2 stroke bike or kart starts up.

My conclusion is that the smoke we see is due to oil being not fully combusted, mainly as a result of short circuiting out the exhaust (and not following the scavenging path) and then being only partially oxidized by the heat of the exhaust. I’m sure everyone at some stage has poured oil onto an open fire and watched & smelt the smoke.

So, the trick is than to ensure that no oil can readily short circuit out the exhaust. One thing we did at Orbital on the 3 cyl DI 2 stroke auto engine was to incorporate a crankcase drain system. This essentially was a small check valve at the bottom of each crankcase, this feeding through a small passage into the intake (upstream of the reed valve) of the adjacent “leading” cylinder. I guess this had some capacitance such that any accumulated drained oil took a little while to get into the system. Net result was very little or no smoke or even smell.

I think we’ve all seen or been behind a diesel that is badly tuned/overfuelling/dirty injectors or whatever, the smoke can be obnoxious. Obviously incomplete combustion.

Ken,
I think that all of what you have said is entirely correct and all those measures would certainly make a huge difference, but the damage has already been done to the mindset of the larger portion of the population by the (obnoxious) two strokes which roamed the earth in the last century!
So to get back to how it should be is almost impossible without a total facelift and some very strong promotion of it's virtues .......... and who is going to go to those lengths?

[ceci]

I'm a huge two stroke fan, but I'm afraid that electric power is on the way to replacing IC engines. Batteries will provide the electricity at the low end while fuel cells will probably be the answer at the high power end. The big two stroke diesels in ships will probably be the last to go. Even motorcycle manufacturers are seriously considering electric power as we traditionalists die off. The IC engine has had a great run, but it's ending.

I recently visited the Newport Car Museum (https://newportcarmuseum.org/). My childhood friend volunteers there. We reminisced about the several Pontiac GTOs he drove in the 60s and 70s as presents from his father, a Pontiac dealer. The only muscle car in the collection from that era to the present that could out accelerate my Tesla Model 3 was the Dodge Demon. Even many of the Corvetts, Cobras, and exotic cars in the collection were slower, not to mention less economical. I think museums are where the great IC cars will end up, like horse drawn carriages. Hobbyists will always own some IC cars, but like horses, they won't be for routine use.

Lohring Miller


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_submarine_Peral

Tell me how they could recharge the batteries in the sea.
Its technological advance was thanks to the use of the IC engine until the arrival of atomic energy

[Frits Overmars]

...it's no use to you, they are in Spanish....Que estas insinuando Ceci?:D


wouldn't it be great if the two stroke overcame it's "greenie" problems and was used as a lightweight powerplant driving a generator..It may happen as a temporary solution Will, but it won't last. Feeding some liquid hydrocarbon to a fuel cell may not be as energy-efficient as feeding it with pure hydrogen, but it still is a hell of a lot more efficient than burning that hydrocarbon in an internal combustion engine.


Mazda has been very quiet about their HCCI engine which was supposed to be put into production in their Mazda 3 car - anybody know what is happening there?It's for sale Will. They call it SkyActive X.


My thoughts are that fully combusted oil burns cleanly... the smoke we see is due to oil being not fully combusted... I think we’ve all seen or been behind a diesel that is badly tuned/overfuelling/dirty injectors or whatever, the smoke can be obnoxious. Obviously incomplete combustion.I can top that: I was driving a diesel when the turbocharger hose blew up. The dumb MCU kept injecting the amount of fuel that would have been appropriate if the engine had been receiving all the air it was entitled to.
You've never seen more white smoke. People might think we were getting a new Pope...

Overfuelled diesels usually emit black smoke, as the hydrogen in the fuel grabs all the oxygen in the combustion chamber, leaving many carbon atoms unburned. But in my case combustion must have been so poor that the fuel molecules were not even cracked.

[ceci]

Que estas insinuando Ceci?:D

.



I'm sorry I didn't think you know Spanish.
I hope I didn't bother you, I apologize

[Frits Overmars]

I'm sorry I didn't think you know Spanish. I hope I didn't bother you, I apologizeNo te preocupes Ceci. I have some Spanish from the Bultaco-era, from people like Ricardo Tormo and Miguel Sauca, the technical designer who worked at the Bultaco and Garelli racing departments. They taught me many Spanish words that you will not find in a civilized dictionary :D.
Below, left to right: me, Ricardo Tormo, Jan Thiel, Miguel Sauca.
343555

[ceci]

Don't worry Ceci. I have some Spanish from the Bultaco-era, from people like Ricardo Tormo and Miguel Sauca, the technical designer that worked at the Bultaco and Garelli racing departments. They taught me many Spanish words that you will not find in a civilized dictionary :D.
Below, left to right: me, Ricardo Tormo, Jan Thiel, Miguel Sauca.
343555


I feel ashamed to see that he tried to disagree with people who were already in the world of competition when I had not yet taken a motorcycle (on the date of that photo I was only 10 years old and there were two left to buy my brother the motorcycle Derbi, which I later took)

[WilDun]

Frits, - why aren't you wearing an oil stained dust coat? - were you late for work or were you just visiting? ;)

Has there been any good feedback on the Mazda yet? - Mazda have always been innovators, not afraid of putting it out there and risking failure but always careful not to abandon their reliable established models!

My wife's little Mazda 2, underneath all the facelifts and gimmickry is unremarkable, (although it is reliable and economical)
and that is probably most important.

[Pursang]

IÂ’ve been thinking about smoke lately and think that it is not something inherent in the 2 stroke engine, but just the way it passes thru the engine.

My thoughts are that fully combusted oil burns cleanly The key reasoning to this was an observation at Orbital many years ago. This was based on the smoke generation, evident in the exhaust, of the original “rotary” style Orbital engine. What we did to understand this a bit better was to feed raw oil into the intake of a 4 cyl carbureted engine we also had on test at the time. No smoke.

Also, do we see smoke from a racing 2 stroke under full power down a straight. No. This oneÂ’s a bit subjective, however we do see clouds of smoke when a 2 stroke bike or kart starts up.

My conclusion is that the smoke we see is due to oil being not fully combusted, mainly as a result of short circuiting out the exhaust (and not following the scavenging path) and then being only partially oxidized by the heat of the exhaust. IÂ’m sure everyone at some stage has poured oil onto an open fire and watched & smelt the smoke.

So, the trick is than to ensure that no oil can readily short circuit out the exhaust. One thing we did at Orbital on the 3 cyl DI 2 stroke auto engine was to incorporate a crankcase drain system. This essentially was a small check valve at the bottom of each crankcase, this feeding through a small passage into the intake (upstream of the reed valve) of the adjacent “leading” cylinder. I guess this had some capacitance such that any accumulated drained oil took a little while to get into the system. Net result was very little or no smoke or even smell.
.

Yes, visible smoke is where the 'political' problem really exists.

Four stroke engines also burn oil. (Mains HV Electrical Transformers can too!)
And Nobody seems to account for the large volume of used, contaminated sump oil that must be dealt with.
(Disposed of, ideally cleaned and recycled, but not guaranteed).

Two stroke snow mobiles, jet skis and outboards can meet the highest applicable HC exhaust standards.
One of their tricks is not to provide oil to the engine during starting and idling, only under load.
There is a lot of oil left on bearings and all metal parts in the case because the fuel evaporates on the hot surfaces, the oil doesn't.
The dry-sump/case extractor is a good idea.
Direct oil delivery to the bearings is the best idea. Scott was doing it in the 1920's. Came and went on Japanese bikes 60's & 70's.

Now that Neil has perfected 2 Stroke EFI we need to set him to work on ELubeI (c)2019 - pat pending.. :bleh:
Perhaps using bearing and piston ring temperatures as the trigger criteria.

Cheers, Daryl.

[ken seeber]

At Orbital, I heard 2 interesting things from the Mercury guys (talking 25 years ago though), this being prior to the intro of the Optimax range of engines.

1. Apparently in Rouen in France on the Seine River, there is an annual 24 hour speedboat race. The Merc guys, to keep the engines alive, would run 8:1 fuel oil mix. To prevent oiling up on starting, they filled the carb bowls with straight fuel. Dunno if there was ever smoke, probably hard to see with all the spray.

2. As with all manufacturers, they always have odds and ends left over, perhaps waiting for some good destructive tests. How long would an engine last if left idling with no oil in the fuel? Apparently 200 hours plus.

[WilDun]

Yes, visible smoke is where the 'political' problem really exist ..............................

Now that Neil has perfected 2 Stroke EFI we need to set him to work on ELubeI (c)2019 - pat pending.. :bleh:
Perhaps using bearing and piston ring temperatures as the trigger criteria.

Cheers, Daryl.

Yes Daryl, you hit the nail in that regard !- we haven't been taking seriously the fact that this is a "seen to be world" and however silly or unimportant that may sound, it's what governs us in every way, (including the future of the two stroke engine!) - reason is secondary! ............ but we can't deny that is how it is and no amount of talk will bring the two stroke back to the top!

A good example of this happening is the retirement of the steam engine- all the old "steamies" moaned and declared that if it wasn't driven by steam then it would fail! - they kept on doing that till they keeled over!
Hope we aren't going to do that - maybe we should try and get our heads together and try and sort the situation (Sez I :rolleyes:)

I'm sure we all have ideas but the problem is that we don't like to share them because they are either untried or incomplete - I guess!

ELubeI ..... ?

[Pursang]

ELubeI ..... ?

Electronically controlled Lub(e)rication Injection

That's the Hard part done, a Catchy Trade Mark (itable) name. :drinknsin

Now, just need a little 'technology' to realize the concept. :scratch:

And Seeking Qualified Investors!!! :shifty:

Cheers, Daryl.

[Pursang]

Now, just need a little 'technology' to realize the concept. :scratch:

Perhaps using bearing and piston ring temperatures as the trigger criteria.

How about using these? Too expensive?
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=343565&d=1572390569

One in the A transfer looking at the exhaust side ring(s)
One at the bottom of the crankcase looking at the Bigend around BDC.
Maybe incorporate this in the housing for the Lube Scavenge Valve (LSV) or

ElubeES. Evacuation System sounds better than scavenge or sphincter!! :pinch:
Need to run this past the Marketing Committee and the customer focus group!: :grouphug:


Arduino Controller by TZ350... 'Cos he obviously has plenty of free time. ;)

Cheers, Daryl.

[Pursang]

A good example of this happening is the retirement of the steam engine- all the old "steamies" moaned and declared that if it wasn't driven by steam then it would fail! - they kept on doing that till they keeled over!

99% of Bulk Electricity generation is driven by STEAM.... Either by Coal (Bad.. Co2 etc) or Nuclear reaction (Good..clean)
Except in Australia, where Coal is Good or Bad... but nice, clean, nuclear energy is the anti Christ. :devil2:

Don't get me started on Aussie Diesel powered Submarines!!

Cheers, Daryl.

[ceci]

If we look at 2S as the only existing form of existence, we are burying him.
We deny the fact that since its invention has changed a lot (1ºexternal to internal pumping, 2º transfer with deflector to without it, 3º progress in the escape). Can't there be more changes?

[husaberg]

99% of Bulk Electricity generation is driven by STEAM.... Either by Coal (Bad.. Co2 etc) or Nuclear reaction (Good..clean)
Except in Australia, where Coal is Good or Bad... but nice, clean, nuclear energy is the anti Christ. :devil2:

Don't get me started on Aussie Diesel powered Submarines!!

Cheers, Daryl.

I can see why the aussies might consider Nukes okay
Given you let the old mother country explode them willy nilly them on your place.:laugh:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maralinga:_Australia%27s_Nuclear_Waste_Cover-up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nuclear_tests_at_Maralinga
We also run Geothermal power like the icelanders do using the earths steam.
I thougt a lot of the new assue power was coal gas methane running through litlu modded diesek cat gens set above the coal feils two birds one stone as it degassed the coal proir to mining, to make it safer.

[WilDun]

99% of Bulk Electricity generation is driven by STEAM.... Either by Coal (Bad.. Co2 etc) or Nuclear reaction (Good..clean)
Except in Australia, where Coal is Good or Bad...

Yes true, but not often used in piston engined motorcycles or cars!


but nice, clean, nuclear energy is the anti Christ. :devil2:

Yes, must certainly is - and only clean, so long as a country's infrastrcture is intact and supplied with huge amounts of cash to keep it that way!


Don't get me started on Aussie Diesel powered Submarines!

Cheers, Daryl.

[lohring]

Where I live in the Pacific Northwest, electricity is mostly generated from clean sources and natural gas. On a flight across the US, I was surprised to see wind farms every time I looked out the window. Even without the clean power arguments, it's hard to argue against a car with twice (or more) peak power than my previous gasoline powered car that costs $100 a month less to run. No oil changes or other maintenance for 18,000 miles. I did need to rotate the tires and add window washer fluid, though.

Lohring Miller

[WilDun]

Where I live in the Pacific Northwest, electricity is mostly generated from clean sources and natural gas. On a flight across the US, I was surprised to see wind farms every time I looked out the window. Even without the clean power arguments, it's hard to argue against a car with twice (or more) peak power than my previous gasoline powered car that costs $100 a month less to run. No oil changes or other maintenance for 18,000 miles. I did need to rotate the tires and add window washer fluid, though.

Lohring Miller

I would not disagree with any of that of course - however, the problem of weight and replacement cost for batteries still does exist - weight not so important in road vehicles, but important! ..... Most people will say, better to sell it before it gives up! - but really that is just passing the buck and does not alter the fact that the clapped out batteries will have to be disposed of eventually and could create as much (or even more of a hazard than plastic is today)
Yes, I agree that electricity is really the best answer for the moment and probably will be the main basis for something better later on (ie in the generation department) - just a few things to be finalised and accepted (the diehards won't accept that of course) but we'll all have to conform eventually, so best to do that now and get on with it!
Solar electricity? - fine too, (best if you live in a sunny climate with brown grass or desert sand! - (Think I'd go for green grass and rain) - probably what you are used to as well, Lohring!). :)

[Pursang]

I thought a lot of the new aussie power was coal gas methane running through litlu modded diesel cat gens set above the coal fields two birds one stone as it degassed the coal prior to mining, to make it safer.

Sounds Wonderful! It's a Great idea!.... but we can't afford our own coal seam gas. We have, like, a 100 year contract to deliver it to the Chinese for SFA (about 10% of our local price)
The only power generation at gas field plants is to to power the wells and the pumps that pipe the gas to the coast.

Husa, Glad you're still here to participate. :clap:

Cheers Daryl.

[WilDun]

Ok Daryl, - need to get going on your ElubI etc (if you still love the 2 stroke!) - time and opportunity for it's rescue are disappearing fast - me? ......... Of course, I have worked out a perfect solution, but the interface between my brain and hands seems to have malfunctioned! :facepalm:

BTW - NZ is giving away (ie free)10,000 litres of nice clear water with each litre of milk it sells overseas to any enterprising profiteer! - unfortunately, due to our cashflow problems, they may have to provide their own tankers! ..... - what is the matter with us "Down Under" people?

[Pursang]

Something to keep Oddball alive.

This idea has a lot of merit for a 'modern' Two Stroke engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxqyfB83tSo

Lovely, turbine smooth, mechanical action, great transfer efficiency at low speeds.

Just needs decent carburation or FI, an exhaust system and water cooling (and, maybe, a piston ring at the combustion end).


Crankless (swish plate) motors were a favorite of P E Irving.

Cheers, Daryl

[Grumph]

Pretty sure you've got the wrong Phil there. Irving was the pragmatist, Phil Vincent was the inventor and dreamer.
PCV has the patents on swashplate engines. I think there's a good writeup in LJK Setright's book "Some Unusual Engines" of the lines Phil Vincent was working on.

I seem to remember that the engine for the Vincent airborne lifeboat was supposed to be a swashplate. Irving developed a 2 stroke for it - just in case - which was the unit eventually used.

[Pursang]

Phil Irving's first Job, in 1922, was as a draftsman at Crankless Engines Limited, Fitzroy, Vic.

The principal, Mr. A.G.M. Michell, developed the bearing design, protected by world wide patents.
British Patent # 118098 (US Patent 1,409,057 - March. 1922)

Same set up used in the compressor in the video, nearly 100 years later.

Besides drawings, Irving was involved in the practical installation of 8 & 5cyl engines in vehicles.
He also designed and drew up a 350cc, 3 cylinder, single ended, sleeve valve, four stroke to suit an ABC motorcycle.

Info from his Autobiography.

Cheers, Daryl.

[husaberg]

Phil Irving's first Job, in 1922, was as a draftsman at Crankless Engines Limited, Fitzroy, Vic.

The principal, Mr. A.G.M. Michell, developed the bearing design, protected by world wide patents.
British Patent # 118098 (US Patent 1,409,057 - March. 1922)

Same set up used in the compressor in the video, nearly 100 years later.

Besides drawings, Irving was involved in the practical installation of 8 & 5cyl engines in vehicles.
He also designed and drew up a 350cc, 3 cylinder, single ended, sleeve valve, four stroke to suit an ABC motorcycle.

Info from his Autobiography.

Cheers, Daryl.

I think if you go back in the thread i posted something with it.

[Pursang]

I think if you go back in the thread i posted something with it.

Yes you did! :yes: Page:50 Post #736

The Michell swash disc (plate) mechanism is the simplest and most effective of all the crankless designs.
This is confirmed by its continued use in the A/C compressor.
(Most others used con-rods & knuckles etc. Not KISS)

Most of the crankless engines are 4 strokes with quite complicated systems for driving cams and valve gear.

Old mate, in the video, built a simple two stroke that even P.E.I hadn't considered.

Reasons I like this:

Double ended piston provides linear piston movement in the bore. Side thrusts are addressed by the bearing.
Crank lubrication is separated from the combustion chamber.
Bottom end of piston (reed valve pump) provides effective transfer efficiency at low revs.

A modern version of this engine, using current metallurgy and two stroke porting technology would be compact,
incredibly smooth, efficient and powerful at reasonable rpm and amazingly powerful at whatever the peak rpm might be.

A racing version could have additional intake reeds in the transfers, to be operated by expansion chambers.
A 3 cyl touring engine could be fine with a 3 into 1 manifolded exhaust system.

Cheers, Daryl.

[WilDun]

Yes you did! :yes: Page:50 Post #736

The Michell swash disc (plate) mechanism is the simplest and most effective of all the crankless designs.
This is confirmed by its continued use in the A/C compressor.
(Most others used con-rods & knuckles etc. Not KISS)

Most of the crankless engines are 4 strokes with quite complicated systems for driving cams and valve gear.

Old mate, in the video, built a simple two stroke that even P.E.I hadn't considered.

Reasons I like this:

Double ended piston provides linear piston movement in the bore. Side thrusts are addressed by the bearing.
Crank lubrication is separated from the combustion chamber.
Bottom end of piston (reed valve pump) provides effective transfer efficiency at low revs.

A modern version of this engine, using current metallurgy and two stroke porting technology would be compact,
incredibly smooth, efficient and powerful at reasonable rpm and amazingly powerful at whatever the peak rpm might be.

A racing version could have additional intake reeds in the transfers, to be operated by expansion chambers.
A 3 cyl touring engine could be fine with a 3 into 1 manifolded exhaust system.

Cheers, Daryl.

The swashplate engine has always intrigued me big time, I have read a lot about it for a very long time including the stuff in Setright's book - I was very impressed with its compactness and smooth running.
Compressors using that principle (also being in production for a long time) has surprised me - had I known that I would've had a shed packed full of them! (and would have been divorced as well!)! Do they use a swashplate or a wobble plate mechanism? I do like this guy's enthusiasm and "just try it" attitude.

I guess they will be lying around in scrapyards etc now - what vehicles were they used in anyway? - I might want to have a look even when I'm supposed to be winding down!!

However, the engine versions have never quite got there and according to Setright's book, many companies have tried and failed - that's a bloody shame! but as you say, of course these were mostly four stroke - would a two stroke fare any better? - certainly would, ie as far as compactness and power to weight ratio, are concerned!

Here in Auckland, there is a 5 cylinder axial "wobble plate" engine called the Duke engine under development - I think that the wobble plate type, although pretty similar to the swashplate would work better for high revs - The Duke engine has actually been developed to a very high degree over 10 years or so, and I believe that Mahle in Germany have been helping. - but sad to say I haven't heard much in the last couple of years - anybody know what has happened to it?

I guess the modern conventional four stroke engines have got so established now that to unseat them would be "mission impossible" (whether they are perfect or not!). - human "sheep" and dedicated "followers of fashion" go hand in hand and could be blamed here for their stupidity in allowing things to progress (as we see it) up a wrong path - but then, they are the people who do control the money!

Oh dear, looks like I've started another of my rants! - better stop and get to bed!:laugh:

[Pursang]

Hi Wil,

The Duke is Very Clever ....But SO Complicated, got con rods, rotating barrel to seal against the head (Nemesis of all Rotary valve systems). I wish them all the best.

The Michell style 2 stroke has none of that. It is so simple, I think I can understand it!:weird:

The Double ended piston with thrust balls is about as basic as possible.
Turn and mill them out of Bar stock, with basic machine tools, for a start.
Cast or forge for full production.

Attached is one from Alibaba that uses round ball bearings and a cap, rather than a flattened ball.
That's really, really simple and cheap to build and an easy way to adjust swash plate clearance.


Might need some testing for heat path management at the combustion end.
Without the piston thrusting on the walls most of the heat will pass through the ring.
I guess wall tolerance can be pretty tight and the swash case oil will transfer the heat.

In DeLorean's axial engine notes, he considered oil injection under the piston crown.
He was proposing a sleeve valve 4 stroke, and that would have reduced heat transfer even more, plus the risk of distorting the sleeve.
Once again unnecessary complication, should have gone with the Flux Capacitor.

There must be something I'm missing. Is the transfer pump volume too large (= case 1:1)
Could increase the transfer port volume to bring the total back to something more appropriate.
Or reduce the bore at that end, if necessary. At the loss of some simplicity & symmetry.

From the internet, I've found that double ended type A/C pumps were used in many American Fords and BMW, not sure what else yet.
The piston shown is from a TM31 and/or DSK32 A/C compressor, these units are still available from China.

I'm finding this to be a great 'thought' project. Probably need Frits to inject some 'reality' and pop the bubble.:thud:

Cheers, Daryl.

[Pursang]

Here is a link to a great series of photos of the disassembly of a 5 Piston (10 cylinder) A/C compressor.

http://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/accompressor/disassembled/index.html


Phil Irving thought that the failure of Crankless Engines Limited had a lot to do with the efforts (ie. cash) expended in developing 20 different crank-less machines, from miniature oil pumps to large aero engines. They built around 54 operating units, mostly in ones and two's. Concentrating on marketing just one or two might have produced the cash flow to continue.

An 8 cylinder engine was extensively tested by GM, with good results, but ultimately it was decided that a 10% advantage in fuel economy, just wasn't worth the cost of retooling.
The packaging as an automobile engine wasn't ideal for the 1920's. It sat way too low for mechanics to reach in over the hood. The lower spark plugs were exposed to water off the road.

As a smooth, light, compact engine/generator for modern hybrids it could be another matter. (even Hybrid bikes)

The axial piston device is well proven and tested. Probably 95% of agricultural and industrial equipment uses them as hydraulic pumps & motors.

As an Engine it will need to have significant practical advantages over current IC engines to get a foot in.
Theoretically, they do have some.... need to Prove it!

Cheers, Daryl.

[Pursang]

Just out of Patent.

INTEGRAL RING CARBON-CARBON PISTON

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19990051003.pdf

Cheers, Daryl.

[Frits Overmars]

Attached is one from Alibaba that uses round ball bearings and a cap, rather than a flattened ball. Without the piston thrusting on the walls most of the heat will pass through the ring.
I'm finding this to be a great 'thought' project. Probably need Frits to inject some 'reality' and pop the bubble.My pleasure Daryl :devil2:.
The drawing below, borrowed from Anthony Michell's Crankless Patent, shows the red forces, starting from the surface of swashplate # 1, and perpendicular to the swashplate, passing through the centers of the balls # 13 and # 14, and ending in the ball seats in the pistons, or vice versa. These forces can be resolved into vectors along the piston axis and vectors perpendicular to the piston axis: your thrust forces.
343760

Another thing: the slider caps # 11 and # 12 in the above drawing seem to have nice flat contact patches on the swashplate.
But this can't be, because the swashplate has to be curved, so the slider caps must be curved with a radius that is at least as tight as the smallest radius in the swashplate curvature. So in reality the contact patches are contact lines, creating oilfilm-destroying surface pressures.
These are the type of facts that are not always mentioned in patent applications...
343777


Just out of Patent. INTEGRAL RING CARBON-CARBON PISTON
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19990051003.pdfLeaving the lousy heat conduction of carbon pistons out of consideration for the moment, that piston might work - in a foulstroke.
What those lips # 23 would do in a ported cylinder bore, makes me shiver :facepalm:.
343762

[Pursang]

Another interesting project from NASA. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100021938.pdf

Can I sell you a Totally Sealed internal combustion engine? 7.5W electrical input = >2500W output. :shit:

Ok, the initial test unit is a linear actuator and only does 0.67 rpm.
But you could use that to charge a hydraulic accumulator and then operate any equipment through an axial piston hydraulic motor.
More cylinders, More Power.

This one has everything... Its Electric & Hydrogen & I/C & sealed & No fuel & No exhaust.:woohoo:

How many do you want? ;)

Cheers, Daryl

[Frits Overmars]

Another interesting project from NASA. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100021938.pdf
Can I sell you a Totally Sealed internal combustion engine? 7.5W electrical input = >2500W output. Output energy over 333 times the input energy? Sure, I'd like a second-order perpetuum mobile. All I need now is an open mind. A very open mind...


This one has everything... Its Electric & Hydrogen & I/C & sealed & No fuel & No exhaust. So they use electricity to generate steam. And then? Drive a turbine?
How about using that same electricity to drive an electric motor? Efficiency gain guaranteed.

I almost feel guilty of popping so many bubbles on this fine sunday, Daryl :D.

[Pursang]

My pleasure Daryl :devil2:.
The drawing below, borrowed from Anthony Michell's Crankless Patent, shows the red forces, starting from the surface of swashplate # 1, and perpendicular to the swashplate, passing through the centers of the balls # 13 and # 14, and ending in the ball seats in the pistons, or vice versa. These forces can be resolved into vectors along the piston axis and vectors perpendicular to the piston axis: your thrust forces.

Another thing: the slider caps # 11 and # 12 in the drawing seem to have nice flat contact patches on the swashplate. But this can't be, because the swashplate has to be curved, so the slider caps must be curved with a radius that is at least as tight as the smallest radius in the swashplate curvature. So in reality the contact patches are contact lines, creating oil film-destroying surface pressures.
These are the type of facts that are not always mentioned in patent applications...
343760

OK! there is some potential side thrust on the pistons, but essentially a balanced couple and because the pistons are solidly connected, net close enough to zero.:innocent:
How do they compare to the thrust forces on a piston in a conventional crank & conrod engine?

Why does the swash plate 'have to be' curved? Michell called it a 'slant'. The pics of plates from Michell engines look very flat. (attached)
The point of Michell's invention is that the spherical ball contact adjusts for the angularity variations.
Perhaps curved swashes were the means around his patent??

They were made from case hardened mild steel and finish ground, to thickness, to balance the piston set.

I have read a bit about the contact patches. The slipper pads were steel or bronze with a white metal coating, to reduce scoring on start-up.
The leading edge of soft white metal picked up any loose metallic particles before they got to the high load bearing surface.
Clearances were set at 0.004" but settled at 0.010" and did produce an audible knock at idle. The cups were made of bronze.

Cheers, Daryl

[Pursang]

Some more Michell pics.

8 cylinder slant & piston

Slippers..Flat as...

[Frits Overmars]

There is some potential side thrust on the pistons, but essentially a balanced couple and because the pistons are solidly connected, net close enough to zero. How do they compare to the thrust forces on a piston in a conventional crank & conrod engine?My red arrows neatly counteract each other, don't they? Well, they would, if they would occur simultaneously. But they don't; they occur alternately: either one or the other, like the thrust forces in a conventional crank & conrod engine; no free lunch there.
The thrust forces are proportional to the con rod angle in a conventional crank & conrod engine, that usually sways between +/- 13° ,
and the angle of the swashplate that also varies between positive and negative angles of about the same magnitude.


Clearances were set at 0.004" but settled at 0.010"...Those 0,010" are 0,254 mm in real money. That kind of clearance in a con rod would rattle a conventional engine to dead.
And I've never seen endurance test results of a swashplate engine...

[lohring]

Output energy over 333 times the input energy? Sure, I'd like a second-order perpetuum mobile. All I need now is an open mind. A very open mind...

So they use electricity to generate steam. And then? Drive a turbine?
How about using that same electricity to drive an electric motor? Efficiency gain guaranteed.

I almost feel guilty of popping so many bubbles on this fine sunday, Daryl :D.

As I was driving my rental car down a fairly steep road, the automatic transmission shifted down to hold the cruse control set speed. I thought that's why the meter says 21 mpg. Where is regeneration when you really need it? It's one reason why electric drives get five times the equivalent mileage (kilometereage?)

Lohring Miller

[husaberg]

As I was driving my rental car down a fairly steep road, the automatic transmission shifted down to hold the cruse control set speed. I thought that's why the meter says 21 mpg. Where is regeneration when you really need it? It's one reason why electric drives get five times the equivalent mileage (kilometereage?)

Lohring Miller

i was driving in canterbury the other day.
(a vast flat of nothingness the size of the Netherlands inhabited only by a few rbbits and gorse hedges and it seems 1 million center pivot irrigators a few rabid sheep and Grump)
I thought i might put on the cruise control as it was the only dauy a year when they had no gale force wind immediately the fuel consumption went up from 6.9 to 12 liters/100KM.
Even on a flat road the computer constantly applies the brakes and then accelerates to maintain the speed.

The trucks they used to run in the quarry in Dunedin used to run Telma brakes which were regenerative electric brakes that turned the braking force into heat and the generated electricity was used to further slow the brake.

Previous systemes like the Jakes brake were frowned appon in the quarry as the quarry was in a built up area of Dunedin. Next to the university and now the rugby ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FMoUEmSsdE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FSkNSOeTWM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qocMoTOVn6Q

[WilDun]

I've had some problems with windows 10 and the computer would not stay online for more than 30 seconds, all due to a major update on 10th Nov. I just about pulled out all my remaining hair after trying fix after fix to try and correct it! .... but last night, a fix (update) from heaven! - maybe it was from Microsoft, I don't care, I now have a stable fast computer which actually stays online!

Like the axial engine discussion but have only glanced it as yet, should be interesting.

I have always been interested in the possibility of using them in the IC engine role since I worked at a factory producing parts for hydraulic axial piston swashplate pumps and came to certain conclusions about them (ie from the point of view of using the arrangement for IC engines).

The hydraulic pumps work well at relatively slow revs and being flooded constantly with oil - but in the IC engine role the lubrication would become critical and of course the higher revs, frictional forces would come into play! Using curved swashplates or sinuosoidal ribs to engage with and move the pistons requires some very accurate machining (therfore expensive) techniques. - the wobble plate idea (like the two stroke engine) is deceptively simple looking but the Duke engine seems to have overcome most of the problems here.

I really don't believe in their (Duke's) sliding OHV system, - ok when it's new, but 20,000 Kms down the track ??? - really, the common or garden old poppet valve still rules the roost and doesn't look at all like being knocked off it's perch, despite all the criticism that's pointed at it!

The compact axial piston engine would fit the bill for use on a bike I reckon! (preferably two stroke of course!).


I need to find some time to read all the previous stuff properly!

[190mech]

I gained interst in the swash plate engine back in the late 70's when Dyna-Cam designed one for an aircraft engine,it was FAA certified and installed in a Piper PA28R-200 Arrow for testing,looked like a great leap in engine technology,but it faded like many others have,,I read the swash plates had high loading and would wear/warp with time.Now its hard to find any info on that engine as it was bought by other companies and data deleted..Found this site that has some good pics of various designs;
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/axial-ICeng/axial-IC.htm#tech

[WilDun]

That's the one I was thinking of when I mentioned the "sinusoidal rib" and although I would have liked to see it survive I had the feeling it wouldn't (hard to break into an established "adequate " market with new technology!) - I haven't had time to read the link you supplied -
I believe that engine was a development of an original German "Hermann"?? design.

BTW my Windows 10 has gone again! and I'm now back on my old faithful Windows 7!! (but Windows 7 is to be dumped at the end of the year! I believe).

[Pursang]

And I've never seen endurance test results of a swashplate engine...

Two of these Michell engines, built under license by the National Gas Engine Company of England, were still operating as gas pipeline boosters in 1974. Still running after 40 years of service, that's endurance.:2thumbsup

343770343771

If One were to assume that Anthony Michell & Phil Irving and the National Gas Engine Company of England and were not 'Hopeless Dreamers'
but had proven that the design had mechanical merit, then what would we need to consider in producing a practical 3 piston (6 cyl) two stroke along the lines of the one in the video?

Cheers, Daryl.

[WilDun]

The axial engine certainly has worked very well in some situations, but I don't think that they were ever developed properly in the small engine scene.
I do think that it has been well and truly proven that round pistons in round cylinders is the best way for the IC engine to go and this axial layout makes for a very compact engine, obviously lending itself to "opposed piston" ideas which (to me) have a lot of merit - at least with my train of thought at the moment

I wonder what Neil (AKA Flettner) thinks about it - he has had good experience with opposed pistons!

I sometimes wish that I had grown up between the wars - it was a great time to experiment with all sorts of engines etc - nothing was completely established and the chances of success were much greater than they are today!

Today, the huge corporations (and countries) have got us by the short and curlies and we just don't have the clout to change or compete with them (and never again will have, but....... let's not give up playing - for our own sakes!!).

[Pursang]

As an example of how clever tech doesn't always find it's place first time around:

Look at the valve mechanism from the 1920's industrial gas pump engine.
343778

40 years later Honda create an empire with SOHC engines configured just like this.
Only difference..... looks like Michell was using roller cam followers.:clap:

Cheers, Daryl

[Frits Overmars]

Found this site that has some good pics of various designs;
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/axial-ICeng/axial-IC.htm#techThat's a great link, thanks. I enjoy browsing through such summaries. For me it's a spiritual form of 'walking the dog'. It takes the mind of everyday problems and once that mind is opened, new ideas sometimes emerge.

It is also funny to see how some patent applications have been put together. Take a look at the two wobble-plate engines below.
The picture on the left shows connecting rods that are hinged to the pistons in the usual way, as you would expect.
The picture on the right shows that it can also be done without a hinge in the piston. On paper, yes ....
343781 343780

It is possible to omit the hinge, but it requires a peculiar type of piston, pictured below, a project from the late Henk van Veen, of Van Veen Kreidler fame, in which I was also a little involved. It's just a pity that it cannot work in conjunction with cylinder exhaust ports.
343779

[Pursang]

How it Works!

343782

Apparently oil was squirted under pressure at the leading edge of the slipper at particular points.
I would expect that to be at the ends of strokes when the slippers were least loaded and the clearance greatest.

From 190mechs link

Cheers, Daryl.

[lohring]

A long time ago when I was designing hydraulic winch drives, there was an axial piston hydraulic pump with semi spherical pistons like Frits pictured. It seemed to me that the line contact would leak more than the conventional designs. Parker still makes a pump with this design (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Axial-piston-type-hydraulic-piston-pump-with-a-bent-axis-synchronized-by-timing-gears_fig1_225768053), so it looks like I was wrong. However, sealing pumps flooded in oil is a lot easier than in an IC engine.

Lohring Miller

[WilDun]

In the link (described by Frits as "walking the dog") ie where all the axial engines are described by animation - the wobble plate engine at the beginning .....

It seems that although it has been fairly successful had it's share of problems early on, with the anchor or "pan handle" used to prevent the wobble plate from turning. It gave them a bit of grief by wearing out prematurely. - The movement of the plate (and of course joints at the top of the arms where it all changed from linear to rotating movement ) moves in a quite convoluted figure of eight path which made it fight with the slot provided to stop rotation of the plate.

If you study the animation you can just about see what I mean (my description may not be all that clear)! - I can't remember just how it was solved but it must have been! - Duke engines must have made some arrangement to solve that one too.

[Pursang]

Here is a nice animation of the Michell mechanism, no rods, no links, no problems, simple as...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os2A13dAGzg

cheers, Daryl

[WilDun]

Here is a nice animation of the Michell mechanism, no rods, no links, no problems, simple as...
cheers, Daryl

Got to admit Daryl that is a very clever design, ......... but, relatively speaking it's quite complicated - a lot of machining and a lot of parts too - but definitely clever!
I want to delve into it a bit more but I really would need to divorce myself from reality about thinking of it being used in the future!
It really deserves to be outside doing a sterling job, instead of being in a glass case in a museum! - but I don't think it will ever achieve that, because although (as I see it) it's actually quite a great engineering feat, unfortunately few people will recognize just how good it is / was, or could have been! - especially the big manufacturers. ....... but let's live in hope!

[ceci]

It is possible to omit the hinge, but it requires a peculiar type of piston, pictured below, a project from the late Henk van Veen, of Van Veen Kreidler fame, in which I was also a little involved. It's just a pity that it cannot work in conjunction with cylinder exhaust ports.
343779


This type of piston is for a mechanism in which BORE > STROKE
I find it more appropriate for an auxiliary pump, in the style of this: combustion cylinder bore 39 stroke 41.8 auxiliary pump bore 62 stroke 13.8

[WilDun]

Yes, - probably best in a pump (pompe?)
In an IC engine it would produce a natural trap for unburnt charge! - I can't see exactly where any benefit would be, whatever it is in - wouldn't it be a very expensive alternative to a normal piston/ring setup?.
VanVeen of course actually knew what he was talking about! - ie with his Kriedlers!

[OopsClunkThud]

Combined piston/rod like that are used in small oil-less air compressors, often used for airbrush. the bigend runs a ballbearing packed with grease and the piston ring is teflon running on a hard anodized sleeve. They are quiet, light, and have zero chance of contaminating the air with oil, but they do not last a long time.

[Pursang]

Combined piston/rod like that are used in small oil-less air compressors, often used for airbrush. the bigend runs a ballbearing packed with grease and the piston ring is teflon running on a hard anodized sleeve. They are quiet, light, and have zero chance of contaminating the air with oil, but they do not last a long time.

I've been trying to find an image I had, of a Super Simple one.

The conrod is curved and one side of the elliptical piston lip seal protrudes from the cylinder at the bottom of the stroke.
One outlet check valve in the cylinder head, and that's it!

Cheers, Daryl.

[OopsClunkThud]

two oilless compressor examples:

the ring keeps the piston/rod from ever touching the cylinder, until it does and then it all goes bad. But not a hard fix.

343872343873

[ceci]

It is possible to omit the hinge, but it requires a peculiar type of piston, pictured below, a project from the late Henk van Veen, of Van Veen Kreidler fame, in which I was also a little involved. It's just a pity that it cannot work in conjunction with cylinder exhaust ports.
343779

With mechanisms like these the problem could be solved
343878

[ken seeber]

The combined piston/rod design with its inherent tilting piston face:

Because of the tilting, there might be limit on the achievable compression ratio because of the head/piston clearances required. Just to go against all Frit's fundamental KISS principles, one could have an opposed piston version with contra rotating cranks. This could result in the two pistons tilting in the same direction, thus maintaining a parallel gap between them. Valving would have to be circumferential around the bore.

Just can't see any good reason to make one though. :weep:

[husaberg]

The combined piston/rod design with its inherent tilting piston face:

Because of the tilting, there might be limit on the achievable compression ratio because of the head/piston clearances required. Just to go against all Frit's fundamental KISS principles, one could have an opposed piston version with contra rotating cranks. This could result in the two pistons tilting in the same direction, thus maintaining a parallel gap between them. Valving would have to be circumferential around the bore.

Just can't see any good reason to make one though. :weep:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEDEL4CQ_gc

[Frits Overmars]

With mechanisms like these the problem could be solved
Ceci, in your third image, inventor Bryan Parsons seems to ignore the fact that during most of a revolution there is an undesirable connection between crankcase and exhaust. I have not been able to find the full patent document; can you post it?

[WilDun]

Yes Frits,
I did look at this piston type before and I believe I posted a picture of it a long time ago in this thread.

I came to the conclusion then that it wouldn't work in an engine because of the angularity of the actual piston part at 50% stroke - no amount of curvature on the sealing area of the piston would help!
After all, the actual sealing area of the piston would have to be elliptical (or something close) at that angularity wouldn't it?

Hossack's engine did actually work after a fashion with it's sculpted (curved) thrust faces but the piston section was actually rectangular!
Also as I said earlier, what about the narrow gaps between the piston crown and the cylinder (ie with a curved sealing area ) when at TDC?

But of course I may have missed something and if so, I'm sure I can rely on you guys to point it out! :laugh:

[ceci]

Ceci, in your third image, inventor Bryan Parsons seems to ignore the fact that during most of a revolution there is an undesirable connection between crankcase and exhaust. I have not been able to trace to find the full patent document; can you post it?


I remembered that Boyesen had a patent for a barrel exhaust closing mechanism and looking for it I found that, but only that is the only thing I found
https://books.google.es/books?id=-fThpU9vF_AC&pg=PA1496&lpg=PA1496&dq=Boyesen+two+stroke+engine+exhaust+patents&source=bl&ots=n-BUK70aSr&sig=ACfU3U33_7F8epgPZChrG9yseS0e7W7VKA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwie94KmhK7mAhWJkhQKHZsOAKoQ6AEwBHoECAoQA g#v=onepage&q=Boyesen%20two%20stroke%20engine%20exhaust%20pate nts&f=false

[Frits Overmars]

Thanks Ceci. Yes, Boyesen patented both rotary and oscillating ways of controlling two-stroke exhaust timing, but I was wondering if Bryan Parsons had made a provision for a similar device in his above-shown patent.

[lohring]

The problem with tilting pistons is the seal area goes from circular to elliptical. If the tilt is small the change will be small, but will still be hard to seal. It does work in pumps, though.

Lohring Miller

[Michael Moore]

Frits, here's the Parsons 2T patent document:

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/c2/75/8b/7c295da10646d5/US4924824.pdf

[ceci]

Like most, I think those piston / connecting rod are good for air compressors.
How to use them in 2S, to lighten engines like the 99Z. This piston / connecting rod is the same bore
I am convinced that by changing some things, this approach would be very effectivehttp://www.motobec.fr/etude-technique.html
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4276858A/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US4276858A/)343889

[Pursang]

https://books.google.es/books?id=-fThpU9vF_AC&pg=PA1496&lpg=PA1496&dq=Boyesen+two+stroke+engine+exhaust+patents&source=bl&ots=n-BUK70aSr&sig=ACfU3U33_7F8epgPZChrG9yseS0e7W7VKA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwie94KmhK7mAhWJkhQKHZsOAKoQ6AEwBHoECAoQA g#v=onepage&q=Boyesen%20two%20stroke%20engine%20exhaust%20pate nts&f=false

I notice on the same page, a patent issued to the mostly unsung 2 stroke inventor, Mr. Kenneth P. Seeber.

What the world needs is cat converters blocking exhaust ports. ;)

Cheers, Daryl.

[WilDun]

Kenneth! KENNETH!. KENNETH! where are you? - have you been doing stuff behind our backs?? ....... :no:..... NO?

[Pursang]

Kenneth! KENNETH!. KENNETH!
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Cheers, Daryl.

[WilDun]

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Cheers, Daryl.

Get a life - I've got 9 - ( 8 after this indignity)!

[ken seeber]

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Cheers, Daryl.

It's leaning to one side.

Does that make it a CATALIST ???? :innocent:

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, here's the Parsons 2T patent document:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/c2/75/8b/7c295da10646d5/US4924824.pdfThanks Michael. This is great reading for the upcoming holidays: nice and scary. Read and shiver.
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I have rarely come across a patent with so many ... I try to think of a polite expression, but nothing comes to mind.
To seal the exhaust port, left open when the tilting piston passes over it, there is also a cylindrical piston skirt, hanging from its tilting brother.
But it does not seal sufficiently, so the next step, figure 3, is two semi-cylindrical skirts.
And do these cylindrical skirts take care of the crosshead forces? No, those forces can concentrate entirely on the extremely narrow contact area of the tilting piston.
The seal between cylinder and crankcase is also of an unprecedented ingenious level. As if the required distance between the 'sealing means #42' in figure 3 does not vary considerably with the connecting rod angle. That's not just wishful thinking, it's blatantly ignoring reality.
It seems somebody did not want to design an engine, they just wanted to get a patent. This ain't KISS, it's WHYMISIYCAMIC
(why make it simple if you can make it complicated).

[ceci]

This is great reading for the upcoming holidays: nice and scary. Read and shiver.
.

Everyone has their tastes in reading, mine are the gluttony (supercharging)
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https://patents.google.com/patent/US2702533

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/010376703/publication/GB430490A?q=pn%3DGB430490A

[WilDun]

Thanks Michael. This is great reading for the upcoming holidays: nice and scary. Read and shiver.
343891
I have rarely come across a patent with so many ... I try to think of a polite expression, but nothing comes to mind....................

No Frits - it's still "KISS" - (keep inventing silly shit) !