Oddball engines and prototypes

[Mental Trousers]

I did use the 'tiptronic' system when we hired a Mitsubishi Lancer a few years ago, it was a joy to use I must say, but is it a manually (optional) controlled CVT or old fashioned automatic?

The only TipTronic transmissions I've found to be any good are the twin clutch setups from the VW group of cars - VW, Audi, Skoda, SEAT etc. Most TipTronics you push the lever and then piss around waiting for it to decide it's going to change at it's normal change point anyway. With the twin clutch DSG boxes you push the lever and it's changed before the lever has hit the stop, it's as close to instant as you can get.

[WilDun]

The only TipTronic transmissions I've found to be any good are the twin clutch setups from the VW group of cars .

Oh :confused: ....... guess I'm at least 15 years behind the times - hadn't even heard of "tiptronic" before I hired that car and I thought then that I must be right on the cutting edge, should've gone to 'spec savers' then I'd have been able to keep abreast - sometimes I feel the need to catch up, but then why should I? - I'm happy being where I am at the moment! (Happy Daze)
:laugh:

[Flettner]

It's got nothing to do with high performance or competition, the crank arrangement and the movement of the piston and rod is the main thing of interest here, the rest is pretty ordinary and has most probably been done before, but if you look at the patent (there's a link to the patent there somewhere) it has everything covered and whether they ever use it or not, they've got everything sewn up and I very much doubt that keeping the patent going would be any problem for Honda!

Come on, what in this picture is actualy patentable, it's all been out there for years. This must be a ruse.

[Mental Trousers]

These seamless boxes only came into being because CVT is not allowed in racing. No more than six gears are permitted, and CVT counts as an infinite number of gears. I'd choose CVT any time. It would give the rider (and the tuner) a much easier time and it would be ten times cheaper to produce than the Honda seamless gearbox.

Interesting you should say that. I'm looking for a replacement for my Golf GTi and my mechanic, who is also a sponsor for my racing, has told me to stay the hell away from CVTs. Even on 2015 model CVTs he won't even change the transmission oil. Interesting cos he's up to ears in variable valve trains and alsorts of complex technical stuff, but he refuses to have anything to do with CVTs.

Given that I trust his word on all things car related I'm going for a twin clutch DSG seeing as it's bloody near impossible to find a modern manual these days.

[WilDun]

it's all been out there for years. This must be a ruse.

I'm sure you're right, but why did they bother to patent it?
Certainly not the major breakthrough as it's said to be I guess, however, its new to me - never seen it before!

The nearest I can think of is the old metal shaper drives (although they are basically 'Scotch Crank'). So it could be used for variable stroke I guess! :scratch:

[Frits Overmars]

Interesting you should say that. I'm looking for a replacement for my Golf GTi and my mechanic, who is also a sponsor for my racing, has told me to stay the hell away from CVTs. Even on 2015 model CVTs he won't even change the transmission oil. Interesting cos he's up to ears in variable valve trains and alsorts of complex technical stuff, but he refuses to have anything to do with CVTs.
Given that I trust his word on all things car related I'm going for a twin clutch DSG seeing as it's bloody near impossible to find a modern manual these days.DSGs are all right, but they are quite heavy and more complicated than a seamless gearbox ought to be, if you ask me. And for a manufacturer they are much more expensive to implement than a CVT. For the moment though, DSGs can handle more torque. I wish Van Doorne would market that 800 HP Williams F1-CSV...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto&feature=related

Here in Germany where I spend most of my days, you hear the exhaust 'pop' of DSG-shifting VWs, Audis and Porsches all day. They are the result of the ignition cut during shifting (so the power is interrupted; it's not really seamless shifting), after which the unburnt mixture ignites in the catalyzer: pop.
As most of these cars also have direct injection, they could as well cut the injection instead of the ignition during shifting but I suspect that these 'pops' are deliberately maintained; if your car doesn't pop, you don't count.

CVTs need a very special type of oil; if you use regular transmission oil, you will destroy them.

[Mental Trousers]

Here in Germany where I spend most of my days, you hear the exhaust 'pop' of DSG-shifting VWs, Audis and Porsches all day. They are the result of the ignition cut during shifting (so the power is interrupted; it's not really seamless shifting), after which the unburnt mixture ignites in the catalyzer: pop.
As most of these cars also have direct injection, they could as well cut the injection instead of the ignition during shifting but I suspect that these 'pops' are deliberately maintained; if your car doesn't pop, you don't count.

That's one of the reasons why I'm liking the DSG box, it's just like the quick shifter on my bike, that's got to be a good thing.

[Edbear]

Interesting you should say that. I'm looking for a replacement for my Golf GTi and my mechanic, who is also a sponsor for my racing, has told me to stay the hell away from CVTs. Even on 2015 model CVTs he won't even change the transmission oil. Interesting cos he's up to ears in variable valve trains and alsorts of complex technical stuff, but he refuses to have anything to do with CVTs.

Given that I trust his word on all things car related I'm going for a twin clutch DSG seeing as it's bloody near impossible to find a modern manual these days.

I am on my second vehicle with a CVT. my wife's Mitsi Colt Plus has clocked up 107,000km and has just been serviced. The mechanic who did the Trans flush said it was the smoothest running CVT he had ever experienced.

My Suzuki Kizashi Ltd. has just been traded at 94,000km and the CVT was serviced at 90k. Still running perfectly. Now I have a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV VRX, with CVT.

CVT's are found behind 3.5lt V6's these days. Once you get used to them you won't want anything else.

For one of the best DSG transmissions try the Skoda Octavia RS with the turbo 2lt.

[Frits Overmars]

CVT's are found behind 3.5lt V6's these days. Once you get used to them you won't want anything else.Amen to that.


For one of the best DSG transmissions try the Skoda Octavia RS with the turbo 2lt.Skoda is the poor (=sensible) man's alternative to Volkwagen. Under the Skoda badge it's all VW technique. VW offers a 300 HP Golf GTI now and a 400 HP version is on the way.
And here's me with my 70 HP Peugeot diesel. At least that's what it had when it was new, 270.000 km ago. Maybe it's time to lose the particle filter :devil2:.

[Mental Trousers]

CVT's are found behind 3.5lt V6's these days. Once you get used to them you won't want anything else.

Driven a few, still not getting one.




For one of the best DSG transmissions try the Skoda Octavia RS with the turbo 2lt.

Skoda is the poor (=sensible) man's alternative to Volkwagen. Under the Skoda badge it's all VW technique. VW offers a 300 HP Golf GTI now and a 400 HP version is on the way.

They may be cheap in Europe but here I haven't seen one for less than twice the price of a Golf GTi. Shame, cos I've been liking what I see in the Octavia wagon.

[WilDun]

Amen to that.

Skoda is the poor (=sensible) man's alternative to Volkwagen.
And here's me with my 70 HP Peugeot diesel.

Things haven't changed a lot then!
Way way back in the mists of time after I fell off my last motorcycle and I was forbidden by my wife to ride anymore , so to console myself I bought one of the old rear engined Skodas (100 MB?) for $300, it was a 'fixup' job ( I couldn't bear to see it go to the tip). The guy said that he tried everything to get it going and had lost interest in it. My wife didn't like it any more than she liked the bike either and refused to sit in it! - missed out in a major life experience I reckon!
All that was wrong was the fuel pump sight glass clamp had a stripped thread, fixed that and away she went. Changed the oil and filter and the love affair began! Never used a drop of oil ever in the two years I owned it and no leaks. Very misunderstood car! although the rear independent 'swing' axles required some understanding on bumpy corners, it usually stuck to the road well.
So I do understand you still having the Peugeot diesel - For me at least, I guess, it's a little like having a brand new Ferrari - a 'look at me' type of thing, only at the other end of the scale! sort of thumbing your nose at the rich and flamboyant types!
(sorry I'm a miserable old git).:rolleyes:

[James Deuce]

CVTs are a horrible driving experience. I already have enough screaming in the car without the engine constantly doing its nut as well.

[Edbear]

Amen to that.

Skoda is the poor (=sensible) man's alternative to Volkwagen. Under the Skoda badge it's all VW technique. VW offers a 300 HP Golf GTI now and a 400 HP version is on the way.
And here's me with my 70 HP Peugeot diesel. At least that's what it had when it was new, 270.000 km ago. Maybe it's time to lose the particle filter :devil2:.

Quite right, of course. :niceone:

[Edbear]

CVTs are a horrible driving experience. I already have enough screaming in the car without the engine constantly doing its nut as well.

We all have differing driving styles and requirements. For me, I am happy with CVT but the only DSG box's I have experienced were in a Maserati and and a Smart and they were horrible!

[Mental Trousers]

We all have differing driving styles and requirements. For me, I am happy with CVT but the only DSG box's I have experienced were in a Maserati and and a Smart and they were horrible!

Maserati mostly uses a ZF 6 speed automatic so it's pretty average. As for the Smart, you admit to having driven one?

The DSG transmissions (dual clutch) are only made by the VW group and you'll find them in all modern VWs, Audis, Porches, Skodas, SEATs, Bentleys, Bugattis and Lambourghinis.

[Frits Overmars]

Skodas may be cheap in Europe but here I haven't seen one for less than twice the price of a Golf GTi. Shame, cos I've been liking what I see in the Octavia wagon.Good news for you then: there is a Golf GTI Wagon on the way, with 2 liter 300 HP turbo, DSG trannie and all-wheel drive.

[husaberg]

Barr and Stroud this article was written in 1990
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Remember click on them about 3 times.

[WilDun]

I have seen a lot of stuff on the Napier Deltic engine before ( I think it may have been mentioned earlier in this thread) and hadn't really checked it out properly, but it is a very interesting and successful engine used mainly in locomotives and patrol boats since the fifties and it has only recently been retired. Seems it was inspired by the pre-war diesel aircraft engines pioneered by Junkers.

http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Tomlinson.htm

This one is slightly different, being a 160cc model, so it must be even more of a challenge to build than the full size!
It is a very interesting description of its design and construction and a credit to the guy who built it - no castings were used I believe!

I guess Flettner would have been quite familiar with this engine (ie the fullsize one) when he built his horizontally opposed uniflow engine.

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[James Deuce]

The Junkers Jumo 205 was a an extremely successful opposed piston diesel. Their main early WWII usage was the high altitude reconnaissance version of the Ju-86.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_205

Napier license-built their own version of the Jumo 204 pre-WWII and I suspect the Deltic gained a significant amount of data from that programme.

[husaberg]

FLETCHER TWO-STROKE

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pattle/nacc/arc0563.htm

Of the advantages claimed for the Fletcher engine, the most important are low weight, freedom from seizure and improved lowspeed pulling power. In construction, the Fletcher two-stroke differs fundamentally from conventional engines of the type, for the cylinder is a light-alloy casting with an unsleeved bore, in which operates a steel piston with skirts extended above its crown.

Ports are cut at the top of the skirts, and these, of course, correspond with ports in the alloy barrel. In place of the normal cylinder head is fitted a junk head, carrying two piston rings and provided with oil grooves. This head is a sliding fit within the piston, and has a deflector formed upon its crown opposite the transfer port.
Mixture is induced into the crankcase through a simple rotary valve and is transferred through a long transfer port in the normal way. Port timing is controlled in the usual way - i.e., by the relative movement between the ported piston (which can be considered as a form of moving cylinder barrel) and the junk-head, which forms in effect a static piston.

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The unusual components showing the cylinder head and static "piston",
the mobile ported sleeve and the cylinder barrel proper.

[WilDun]

The Junkers Jumo 205 was a an extremely successful opposed piston diesel.
Napier license-built their own version of the Jumo 204 pre-WWII and I suspect the Deltic gained a significant amount of data from that programme.

Apparently there was one of those engines used here in Auckland in a boat which sank and an old guy who knew about it all swears (well, swore) that it is still buried in the mud of the Tamaki Estuary where it sank, ie. just South of the Pakuranga Bridge. Also I saw an article in one of the newspapers describing the fuel injection system of this engine which had been patented originally by a Kiwi guy.

I can't verify all this of course - but I did read about it maybe 25 years ago. I guess it could possibly jog the memory of someone who might know more :scratch:

[WilDun]

FLETCHER TWO-STROKE
The unusual components showing the cylinder head and static "piston",
the mobile ported sleeve and the cylinder barrel proper.

Very interesting idea having a steel piston - 25mph from a 50cc cyclemotor is pretty good.
My very first motorcycle was a 50cc cyclemotor, the best I could get out of it was 16 mph but it had quite a lot of torque. It was called the 'Trojan Minimotor'.(it was a British built version of an Italian motor called the 'Mini Motore' and produced under licence by Trojan).

BTW I've still got one in my garage somewhere, CI barrel, deflector piston and all!

[husaberg]

Very interesting idea having a steel piston and 25mph from a 50cc cyclemotor. My very first motorcycle was a 50cc cyclemotor, but the best I could get out of it was 16 mph but it had quite a lot of torque. It was called the 'Trojan Minimotor'.(a British built Italian motor built under licence and called the 'Mini Motore').

Still got one in my garage somewhere, CI barrel, deflector piston and all!

Pretty sure Yowling has one similar fined exhaust casting. Very itailian looking (designed by Vincent Paitti)


Seeing as F4 is way too fast , F5 is dominated by the 50cc zealots from Wellington, if i have any chance of ever winning a title I will need to create my own class F6

49cc single speed pre 1960 that should narrow the field a bit

Heres my entry, after reading in depth about small frontal area , light weight skinny tyres I have arrived at this formula

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maybe some of the senior bucket guys like speedpro can shed some of their wisdom as he can probably remember them when they were new

[WilDun]

Pretty sure Yowling has one similar fined exhaust casting. Very itailian looking (designed by Vincent Paitti)

Well I'll be fu****, I mean 'how extraordinary' ! - that's the one! Mine is the engine only and I suspect that it might have been used on a lawnmower or something (they were used for allsorts I believe) - my original one was complete though.
This one I found in a pile of Villiers 8E engine stuff I bought, but there wasn't any sign of bike stuff with it.

[WilDun]

Pretty sure Yowling has one similar fined exhaust casting. Very itailian looking (designed by Vincent Paitti)

A 3 hp max for that formula 6 would be good, I can cast special light alloy competition barrels for them too (light weight helps with acceleration), the possibilities here are endless! :yes:

[ken seeber]

I know some of you blokes like plane stuff, so have a look at these Russkie fighters.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=77e_1389637750

[Ocean1]

Apparently there was one of those engines used here in Auckland in a boat which sank and an old guy who knew about it all swears (well, swore) that it is still buried in the mud of the Tamaki Estuary where it sank, ie. just South of the Pakuranga Bridge. Also I saw an article in one of the newspapers describing the fuel injection system of this engine which had been patented originally by a Kiwi guy.

I can't verify all this of course - but I did read about it maybe 25 years ago. I guess it could possibly jog the memory of someone who might know more :scratch:

I wonder if it was associated with an old motor torpedo boat that lived up that way in the late 60's...

[WilDun]

I wonder if it was associated with an old motor torpedo boat that lived up that way in the late 60's...

Ocean
Thinking back, I believe that it could have been something like that, but I can't remember - the NZ Herald may have printed that article (prob 20 -25 years ago).

Ken, fantastic video! Those planes seem to have been flying (flying?) in a stalled condition most of the time, relying on the sheer power of the engines to propel them out of it!

[WilDun]

Talking about oddball engines, what about this outrageous steamer? - Mike T?

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[Frits Overmars]

I love the bell :D.

[WilDun]

I love the bell :D.

Frits,
Think that machine might have been made by a guy from the Netherlands (anyway it's on Gizmag).

[WilDun]

I had stopped looking at the ESE thread for a couple or three months (using up too much of my precious time) ie trying to figure out stuff which although it is very interesting, isn't really worthwhile for me to try!
However, I did have a look last night and found that the Ryger engine (which I didn't really know about) is all the rage - probably because it's all so "hush hush" and everybody is trying to solve the mystery! - something else to distract me from my foundry I guess.

Maybe I should call in at ESE in another 3 months or so and find the mystery solved, without trying to solve it for myself!

Bet it still won't break down the brick wall of our "superior" 4 stroke brethern, no matter how much better it is, - they'll just substitute with more cubes, weight and cost! and everyone will believe (or else).They'll justify it all by quoting saving the planet from pollution - or maybe protecting the public from the possible shrapnel from 30,000rpm missiles careering around the streets no doubt they'll find something trivial to cover up their inadequacy!
:rolleyes:

[WilDun]

This could definitely be described as 'oddball' but you've got to hand it to this Swedish? kid, for ingenuity!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6n0op0sLPA

Trying to encourage the use of this controversy free, light hearted thread (ie, while Husa is away sorting out a few guys on the ESE thread).
It should be for those who want a rest from the never ending saga of the quest for perfection of the the two stroke engine there.
This thread does make a refreshing change and a refuge for the worn out brains at ESE. I reckon - Eh Frits!
:bleh:

[Frits Overmars]

I love it. But did he really change gear at 1:05? How??

[WilDun]

I love it. But did he really change gear at 1:05? How??

I reckon that up till then, he was accelerating and was getting wheelspin on the "dog collar" running on the tyre and he just pulled the engine down a little more snugly - well, that's one theory! :laugh:

BTW what would be your estimate on revs - 30,000 ?

[Frits Overmars]

I reckon that up till then, he was accelerating and was getting wheelspin on the "dog collar" running on the tyre and he just pulled the engine down a little more snugly - well, that's one theory! :laugh:I haven't got a better one.


BTW what would be your estimate on revs - 30,000 ?We do not estimate, Sir. We perform video and audio analyses :hitcher:.
They tell us that top speed is 36 km/h (five seconds from one yellow snow marker to the next one, fifty meters further on) and rpm = 1200 :sherlock:.
With the same over-all gear ratio and Ryger-revs he would do exactly 900 km/h. No problems with the sound barrier yet, but maybe his tire rating won't allow it :no:.

[Flettner]

I love it. But did he really change gear at 1:05? How??

No, he just opened her up. Released the choke?

[WilDun]

No, he just opened her up.

The bottom end on your machine might not fly apart (or contract 'osmosis') if you adopted the lubrication method he uses, it's obviously so good that he can keep it running without any need for a cover (thus keeping it cool) - what the hell is osmosis anyway? - a disease or an inferior grade of oil?

[WilDun]

I haven't got a better one.

We do not do estimates, sir. We do video and audio analyses.
Which tell us that top speed is 36 km/h (five seconds from one yellow snow marker to the next one, fifty meters further on) and rpm = 1200 :sherlock:.
With the same over-all gear ratio and Ryger-revs he would do exactly 900 km/h. But maybe his tire rating won't allow that :no:.

Why are you Dutchmen always so precise? - we would just estimate it and reckon that there was one 'bang' per lampost! (every pine tree in this case).

[Lightbulb]

I know some of you blokes like plane stuff, so have a look at these Russkie fighters.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=77e_1389637750

I have seen some russian demo's before, but nothing as comprehensive as that.
It is amazing the propaganda we are told, but those Ruskies have some real interesting tech and physics working there.
Just imagine how advanced their drones may be?
The west does not have any aircraft capable of some of those maneuvers, let alone training pilots capable of withstanding the forces they are exerted.
Just staggering stuff to watch.
Thanks very much for posting the video.
Neil

[WilDun]

The west does not have any aircraft capable of some of those maneuvers, let alone training pilots capable of withstanding the forces they are exerted.

Neil

Yes, we have been fed a lot of propaganda about those guys, but it's just as well they can fly because their infrastructure including their transport/roads in the important areas leaves a lot to be desired (not to mention their president!).
But in saying that, never underestimate their ability when it comes to aircraft, in fact never underestimate them at all! - Sikorsky in the USA, (an expatriate Russian) showed the world the way in helicopters.

[husaberg]

Yes, we have been fed a lot of propaganda about those guys, but it's just as well they can fly because their infrastructure including their transport/roads in the important areas leaves a lot to be desired (not to mention their president!).
But in saying that, never underestimate their ability when it comes to aircraft, in fact never underestimate them at all! - Sikorsky in the USA, (an expatriate Russian) showed the world the way in helicopters.

Not just him, although I thought he was Polish. remember the Russian space pen that cost millions of Dollar less than the Nasa one.
Rostislav Alexeyev
Ground effects craft
Note: The 6-engined jet at 0:40 is the Antonov 225, which is presently the largest aircraft in the world, period. Its a cargo transporter and its cargo bay is so large it can hold most of the assembled components of a Boeing 747.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Wy0UNvL37vo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rUTWWsh6iGA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[husaberg]

Ryger anyone.
KISS
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ngb4SYR74m4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Do you have an old Renown or Davis Pump in the shed Neil?
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I also found these air engines. they make more sense than all the other clean engines I have seen.
Up to 70 degrees at tdc
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pePzOstKqhM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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[WilDun]

Not just him, although I thought he was Polish.
Ground effects craft
Note: The 6-engined jet at 0:40 is the Antonov 225,


He was Russian I believe, (without asking uncle Google's opinion) - then remember, Russia is comprised of Swedes, Finns, Germans, Poles, Ukranians, Georgians,Turks, Mongols, in fact you name it - these people have lived there more or less forever and are all Russians! - Boundaries are man made, but genes don't recognize boundaries!

That is indeed a mighty machine but it might have to remain on the Black Sea - Caspian Sea maybe? Had read about it somewhere before but haven't seen this stuff as yet but I will soon!

[husaberg]

He was Russian I believe, (without asking uncle Google's opinion) - then remember, Russia is comprised of Swedes, Finns, Germans, Poles, Ukranians, Georgians,Turks, Mongols, in fact you name it - these people have lived there more or less forever and are all Russians! - Boundaries are man made, but genes don't recognize boundaries!

That is indeed a mighty machine but it might have to remain on the Black Sea - Had read about it somewhere before but haven't seen this stuff as yet but I will soon!

I haven't googled either yet but there is a video (not in Russian) about them they use a lot less fuel than a plane. I understand they use ground effects plane in the Caribbean you can also buy kitset ground effects flying hovercraft.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pFA9q6wHGNc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kwC8MP6uOiQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TYFEFekPzDM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WilDun]

From my experience with compressed air motors in the workshop, they are bloody inefficient and you don't need a detailed analysis to tell you that! Your average sized air compressor will be struggling to keep up with even one small vane motor used a lot, the concept has been around for a very long time but has never been used in automotive stuff (except for starter motors and brake systems on trucks etc). Better off with a generator and electric motor I reckon.

Don't really want to pour cold water on it all, but that's how I see it anyway.

PS I do like those ground effect flying machines!

[Flettner]

From my experience with compressed air motors in the workshop, they are bloody inefficient and you don't need a detailed analysis to tell you that! Your average sized air compressor will be struggling to keep up with even one small vane motor used a lot, the concept has been around for a very long time but has never been used in automotive stuff (except for starter motors and brake systems on trucks etc). Better off with a generator and electric motor I reckon.

Don't really want to pour cold water on it all, but that's how I see it anyway.

PS I do like those ground effect flying machines!

And where does the energy come from to make the compressed air in the first place, real inefficent!! A three horse motor to drive a tiny pencil grinder via a compressed air energy transfer, I'll bet these air engines are a French idea.

[husaberg]

From my experience with compressed air motors in the workshop, they are bloody inefficient and you don't need a detailed analysis to tell you that! Your average sized air compressor will be struggling to keep up with even one small vane motor used a lot, the concept has been around for a very long time but has never been used in automotive stuff (except for starter motors and brake systems on trucks etc). Better off with a generator and electric motor I reckon.

Don't really want to pour cold water on it all, but that's how I see it anyway.

PS I do like those ground effect flying machines!


And where does the energy come from to make the compressed air in the first place, real inefficent!! A three horse motor to drive a tiny pencil grinder via a compressed air energy transfer, I'll bet these air engines are a French idea.
Acording to the blurb $2 for 120 ms (around town) This engine is a little different, maybe watch the videos
Whilst it will be hyped, it seems a better alternative than fuel cells. Yes foggy tech and in production as well I think with Indians.

[WilDun]

A cording to the burn 2 dollars for 100 km around town the engine is a little different maybe watch the videos
Whilst I will be hyped it seems a better alternative than fuel cells

The fact that it was mooted in the eighties, the fact that the technology has been around and the fact that it's still not in use, doesn't give me a lot of confidence in a successful introduction.

Then, (as always I could be wrong!) :confused:

[husaberg]

The fact that it was mooted in the eighties, the fact that the technology has been around and the fact that it's still not in use, doesn't give me a lot of confidence in a successful introduction.

Then, (as always I could be wrong!) :confused:

I like it. It can be charged quickly. 2 minutes.
Uses availabe technology. I also like the linkage which is why i actually posted it.
Its an around town only thing.

This is worth a look to.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/v-XS4aueDUg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WilDun]

Husa, Regarding the air motor,
Getting places (service stations etc.) to install and maintain the expensive compressors and equipment to cater for this technology would not be easy, nor do I think it would be a safe or wise financial move for them to make.
Remember the CNG saga a few years back? I saw 2 companies go bankrupt through taking a punt on that and it wasn't such a dramatic move as this!

Put it this way, I believe you live down the West Coast - would you be game to invest ( assuming you would have or could obtain funding for it) in the first charging station on the West coast?
But that's that's how some people learn I guess.

We already have a perfectly good solution in in the petrol/electric hybrids running around the cities, which are still in the process of being developed and using the electric power already in place which has been proven over and over. Yes we still may have to do some upgrades to our power production but then, the electricity can be easily converted to DC and put into the car directly through a simple charger (as opposed to through an electric motor to an inefficient expensive compressor and will also be of use for all sorts of stuff throughout the country.
You can't really have large centralised compressed air stations!

Hope I'm making at least a little bit of sense!

[husaberg]

Husa, Regarding the air motor,
Getting places (service stations etc.) to install and maintain the expensive compressors and equipment to cater for this technology would not be easy, nor do I think it would be a safe or wise financial move for them to make.
Remember the CNG saga a few years back? I saw 2 companies go bankrupt through taking a punt on that and it wasn't such a dramatic move as this!

Put it this way, I believe you live down the West Coast - would you be game to invest ( assuming you would have or could obtain funding for it) in the first charging station on the West coast?
But that's that's how some people learn I guess.

We already have a perfectly good solution in in the petrol/electric hybrids running around the cities, which are still in the process of being developed and using the electric power already in place which has been proven over and over. Yes we still may have to do some upgrades to our power production but then, the electricity can be easily converted to DC and put into the car directly through a simple charger (as opposed to through an electric motor to an inefficient expensive compressor and will also be of use for all sorts of stuff throughout the country.
You can't really have large centralised compressed air stations!

Hope I'm making at least a little bit of sense!

It does, but the West Coast isn't a urban area.
Electric cars have hugely expensive batteries. That can't be recycled they also take multiple hours to charge.
If we on the Coast were allowed to used our recourses we would be using coal gas powered electricity. Here is Cat GEN SET engines that run on it very easily.
All we need to do is drill holes. As it is all the resources here (as well as most of the rest of NZ mineral permits) are about to be sold off to multinationals.

South Island never really went CNG we used LPG and it is still popular and readily available. A lot of new houses still use it for cooking and water heating as well as BBQ and still plenty of cars.
Ford were still selling them brand new here a couple of years ago.
Both of these require shipping volatile fuels large distances using fuel to do so and huge industrial compressors and processes to compress them.
You can't beat an internal combustion engine for power density but it can be beaten for around town economy running.

[WilDun]

It does, but the West Coast isn't a urban area.
Electric cars have hugely expensive batteries. That can't be recycled they also take multiple hours to charge.


South Island never really went CNG we used LPG and it is still popular and readily available.

Both of these require shipping volatile fuels large distances using fuel to do so
You can't beat an internal combustion engine for power density but it can be beaten for around town economy running.

We've got a little Chinaman up here who can rebuild these batteries and he is very popular with a lot of cabbies. If they are used a lot as in taxis, they will probably last as long as the vehicle they are in anyway.

Trying not sound like a smug city dweller (I was born and grew up on a farm -I'm still a country boy and always will be!) but all our power, liquid fuels and gas (here in Auckland) comes in either by pipeline or cable and there is really no need for transporting dangerous fuels long distances because we have plenty of oil in this country which is being spirited overseas in order to get the maximum prices then is sold back to us.
Anyway it was from the piped gas supply that we obtained the gas for the ill fated CNG enterprise.

Whether the compressed air car is a successful concept from an engineering perspective or not, I believe that trying to coax the general public to accept it would be a mammoth task!

[Ocean1]

Wooden air engine...

Now, if we're discussing inappropriate materials...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/hyYznnQCVWY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[husaberg]

We've got a little Chinaman up here who can rebuild these batteries and he is very popular with a lot of cabbies. If they are used a lot as in taxis, they will probably last as long as the vehicle they are in anyway.

Trying not sound like a smug city dweller (I was born and grew up on a farm -I'm still a country boy and always will be!) but all our power, liquid fuels and gas (here in Auckland) comes in either by pipeline or cable and there is really no need for transporting dangerous fuels long distances because we have plenty of oil in this country which is being spirited overseas in order to get the maximum prices then is sold back to us.
Anyway it was from the piped gas supply that we obtained the gas for the ill fated CNG enterprise.

Whether the compressed air car is a successful concept from an engineering perspective or not, I believe that trying to coax the general public to accept it would be a mammoth task!

Really they pipes CNG all around the whole North island.
Getting the public to accept Air would be easy
It could make any sound you like from Whoosh whosh crackle pop for the Boy racer to guttural V8 for the Bogans. Or be silent for the Pensioners.
Also note where all that power for the Northern island comes from.

[husaberg]

Now, if we're discussing inappropriate materials...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/hyYznnQCVWY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Is that the Norman Hayes I am thinking of?

Ps Hardwood is the best material ever for a post driver cap.

[Ocean1]

Is that the Norman Hayes I am thinking of?

Ps Hardwood is the best material ever for a post driver cap.

The proud owner of a family heirloom sporting the world's only bedpan silencer?

Probably. Have you never been to Inverrcarrrrrgill?

Oh, and aye, you can't beat hickory for shit like that.

[husaberg]

The proud owner of a family heirloom sporting the world's only bedpan silencer?

Probably. Have you never been to Inverrcarrrrrgill?

Oh, and aye, you can't beat hickory for shit like that.
Only as a kid, Norman Hayes had all of Berts Monroes Stuff.

[Ocean1]

Only as a kid, Norman Hayes had all of Berts Monroes Stuff.

Still does. The whole original wall of "offerings to the god of speed" lives in the museum part of the shop.

The shop was one of not many places I remembered when I went back there after neigh on 35 years.

[WilDun]

Really they pipes CNG all around the whole North island.
Also note where all that power for the Northern island comes from.

They don't pipe CNG round the North Island, they pipe natural gas.

Yes and we steal all that power from you! - right? :violin: - But please don't take all that to heart Husa.

Good video on Cuba, but I think Kiwis would be equally capable given the same situation.

OCEAN
I think that Norman Hayes engine is definitely Kiwiana! an example of the pioneering spirit of New Zealand, second only to the pioneering spirit found on the ESE forum!

[husaberg]

They don't pipe CNG round the North Island, they pipe natural gas.

Yes and we steal all that power from you! - right? :violin: - But please don't take all that to heart Husa.

Good video on Cuba, but I think Kiwis would be equally capable given the same situation.

OCEAN
I think that Norman Hayes engine is definitely Kiwiana! an example of the pioneering spirit of New Zealand, second only to the pioneering spirit found on the ESE forum!

I think you missed my point Will.

[WilDun]

I think you missed my point Will.

Oh well, just off to bed now, so I'll check it out again tomorrow and I'm sure what I missed will come to me! In recent times, the old brainpower tends to diminish late at night! ;)



Update: It's morning again, still none the wiser, I'm probably suffering some sort of brain fog, but that's life at the 'winter' end I guess! In the early summer of my life I would have had the Ryger enigma on ESE all sussed by now! :rolleyes:

[smmudd83_1999]

I read an article in the Uk's Motorcycle Sport and Leisure (when are we ever going to make a rag half as interesting and informative?) that BMW have lodged patents for a W3 engine in early 2015. There are two patents under BMW - the 75 degree (i.e. for all 3 cylinders), and a quite-narrow-considering-there's three-cylinders-in-there 65 degree engine. I should say these will be mounted longitudinally. BMW Motorrad has stated that they are considering a re-entry into the US cruiser/bagger market since the R1200C was halted in 2004.
They were looking at using the K1600 six cylinder in a sort of "bagger" type bike like the cut down Honda GoldWing F6B. But I think they said they need a point of difference rather than going head to head with Honda with a very similar bike. And they didn't think the current boxer twin, parrellel twin, transverse fours were engine platforms they would use for it.

I've seen this before. Guzzi looked at a transverse W3...which would be pretty cool as you wouldn't notice the extra cylinder behind the front wheel, eh? And they were going to keep to their 90 degree format, too. That was way back in the 70's.

And there was an American chap who made a Harley-looking machine with an extra cylinder near flat in front, so another 45 degree cylinder added. Can't remember the final displacement, but I think it made something nuts like 145bhp - which may not sound THAT impressive - and a whopping 174lbft torque. I think performance was approx 150 MILES per hr at just 5500rpm. That is our national speed limit at 2200/2300 rpm. Chugga chugga chugga. His name was Feuling (?) He died over 10 years ago, now - but at the time he was taking limited orders and making bikes to request. I think that makes him the only man to have actually manufactured a W3 to date?

[WilDun]

I read an article in the Uk's Motorcycle Sport and Leisure (when are we ever going to make a rag half as interesting and informative?) that BMW have lodged patents for a W3 engine in early 2015.

I've seen this before. Guzzi looked at a transverse W3...which would be pretty cool as you wouldn't notice the extra cylinder behind the front wheel, eh? I think it made something nuts like 145bhp - which may not sound THAT impressive - and a whopping 174lbft torque. I think performance was approx 150 MILES per hr at just 5500rpm. His name was Feuling (?) makes him the only man to have actually manufactured a W3 to date?


From memory (as opposed to Googling), there was only one successful (very successful) 'W' configuration and that was the Napier Lion engine (albeit 12 cylinder, ie 3 banks of 4). The Guzzi did look compact and impressive also promising, but it never happened. As you say the cylinder wouldn't be noticed behind the front wheel - I think it would need to be seen just to show it was different, although I'd say the beat of the engine might give it away!
How do all those power figures compare with the big 2.2 litre Triumph Triple? and was it really successful commercially? - what happened to it? - I've only ever seen one, it was parked outside a pub.

[husaberg]

Kiwis aye.
The toothpaste engine.
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=The-Toothpaste-Engine&A=1280

[J.A.W.]

This period 'Flight' article features R-R's monstrous 'Chinese copy' of the Napier Sabre H-24..

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1947/1947%20-%200626.html


It flew - a few times - but not for long.. R-R seemed to overlook some of the subtle ( but needful) sophistications designed into the Sabre..

[WilDun]

This period 'Flight' article features R-R's monstrous 'Chinese copy' of the Napier Sabre H-24..
It flew - a few times - but not for long.. R-R seemed to overlook some of the subtle ( but needful) sophistications designed into the Sabre..

The Eagle although it had an 'H' configuration was much like the Bristol sleeve valve radials which was also four stroke.
Bristol also manufactured the sleeves for Napier's Sabre as they had got the manufacture of them down to a fine art!
The RR Cre'cy V12 was actually an innovative sleeve valve two stroke! - all these engines were very successful but manufacturing the Merlins which were desperately needed and actually up and running, took priority.

I've been told that the mechanics didn't take kindly working on any of the engines like Sabres, after being used to working on Merlins etc.

[J.A.W.]

Bristol were forced to help Napier with the sleeves,
& coincidentally (perhaps) the Sabre sleeve was a close size match for one of the Bristol mill sleeves..


The Eagle & Sabre were inline engines, & apart from being 4Ts-using sleeve valves, were nothing like the Bristol radials.

Service mechanics were required to do their jobs competently, so not 'taking kindly' might get you arrested - for sabotage..
& I've heard that those working on Sabres were proud to be working on such a fabulous mill & would lord it over the
blokes fettling the archaic & piddly Merlins..

Too many Merlins were made, for too long, & too few Sabres.. sure, Mosquitos & Mustangs made good use of Merlins,
but untold airframes of dubious war fighting value soaked up plenty too, & Bomber Command were exporting hundreds of Merlins
to Germany every month, (along with bombs & unfortunate airmen)..

Crecy was interesting, but R-R never seemed to be able to get its innovative mills working well,
& did best by methodical development of their older conventional V12s, rather than their X-types & sleeve-valves.

Of course R-R got Frank Whittle's turbine, & that was that - for big Brit recip's, even the highly efficient Napier Nomad 2T C.I.-compound mill..

[WilDun]

The Eagle & Sabre were inline engines, & apart from being 4Ts-using sleeve valves, were nothing like the Bristol radials.
Of course R-R got Frank Whittle's turbine, & that was that

That's all I was trying to say, ie they were four stroke sleeve valve engines.
Need to go back and check! The eagle was an H24 and the Sabre was an H24.

Whittles jet engine was given to the USA to help pay off Britain's "lend lease" debt to America - unfortunately, America invested it in Japan and Germany - who won?

[J.A.W.]

Not the poor bloody Poms anyhow..

Churchill freely gaveaway their best stuff.. gas turbines, radar, sonar, metallurgy & etc, to both Stalin & Roosevelt..
..those bastards got their war aims done.. Britain just got done..

A pity, since - for all their 'nuts 'n' bolts' insanity, Poms did come up with a lot of good stuff, that worked, given 1/2 a chance..

[WilDun]

Not the poor bloody Poms anyhow..

Churchill freely gaveaway their best stuff.. gas turbines, radar, sonar, metallurgy & etc, to both Stalin & Roosevelt..
..those bastards got their war aims done.. Britain just got done..

A pity, since - for all their 'nuts 'n' bolts' insanity, Poms did come up with a lot of good stuff, that worked, given 1/2 a chance..

No, me old Ocker mate, - Not Churchill!, it was given away by the following Labour government, who saw selling the family jewels as an easy way out of their post war financial woes. If only you could ask Frank Whittle himself, he was quite (read 'very') pissed off about it in a TV interview I saw many years ago!
The Poms led the world in the industrial revolution and up till the last big war, then had it all taken away, but in saying that, they did fleece a lot of other poor people in the world in order to get there in the first place!
:yes:

[J.A.W.]

Was Churchill.. the "1/2 American, Jew-raddled drunkard" - as uncle Adolf described him.. see "Tizard Mission"

Ol' Winnie sent the Brit's future across the Atlantic to obtain loans - once he'd squandered all their liquid assets..

& hey, rich capitalist money-men have never given a damn about the poor bloody worker.. not that Stalin did either..


Mind you, BSA got 'Hitler's revenge' in the form of the Bantam, from DKW..

[husaberg]

Was Churchill.. the "1/2 American, Jew-raddled drunkard" - as uncle Adolf described him.. see "Tizard Mission"

Ol' Winnie sent the Brit's future across the Atlantic to obtain loans - once he'd squandered all their liquid assets..

& hey, rich capitalist money-men have never given a damn about the poor bloody worker.. not that Stalin did either..


Mind you, BSA got 'Hitler's revenge' in the form of the Bantam, from DKW..

Sidenote the Whittle Jet used Nimonic 80 in its internals. The steel was developed especially for it.
This same steel was What BSA used in the Goldstar Exhaust valves.
Later used by everyone.

Most of the currently developed alloys still used are Rolls Royce inspired.

The range of alloys were produced in the R.R.50 range.These could be worked by casting or forging, but they were not intended for rolling as sheet or general machining from bar stock.

R.R. 50 General-purpose sand casting alloy
R.R. 53 Die-cast piston alloy Additional silicon content, to improve flow when machine casting
R.R. 56 General-purpose forging alloy
R.R. 58 Low-creep forging alloy for rotating impellers and compressors[18]
R.R. 59 Forged piston alloy

The number of alloys expanded to support a range of applications and processing techniques. At the Paris Airshow of 1953, High Duty Alloys showed no less than eight different Hiduminium R.R. alloys: 20, 50, 56, 58, 66, 77, 80, 90.[19] Also shown were gas turbine compressor and turbine blades in Hiduminium, and a range of their products in the Magnuminium alloy series.

R.R.58, also Aluminium 2618, comprising 2.5 copper, 1.5 magnesium, 1.0 iron, 1.2 nickel, 0.2 silicon, 0.1 titanium and the remainder aluminium, and originally intended for jet engine compressor blades, was used as the main structural material for the Concorde airframe, supplied by High Duty Alloys, it was also known as AU2GN to the French side of the project

Later alloys, such as R.R.66, were used for sheet, where high strength was needed in an alloy capable of being worked by deep drawing. This became increasingly important with the faster jet aircraft post-war, as issues such as transonic compressibility became important. It was now necessary for an aircraft's covering material to be strong, not merely the spar or framing beneath.

R.R.350, a sand-castable high temperature alloy, was used in the General Electric YJ93 jet engine and was also used in the General Electric GE4 intended for the later cancelled American Boeing 2707 SST project

[J.A.W.]

'Stellite' too, a trick alloy steel, as used in hard-duty cam-followers, ( & originally developed - for dentures!).

[WilDun]

Hey, hey, just watch what you say about the Bantam, it was the first 'fast' bike I ever had! - I managed to convert it from PO bike trim (probably 45 mph to almost 80mph - not bad for an amateur in those days!

Should've been the Japs and Germans trying to obtain loans ............... anyway are you still saying the Sabre and Eagle were inline engines? maybe you were getting mixed up between them and the Gypsy Major in the Tiger Moth?
;)

[pete376403]

I love this thread because it touches on so many different things - now its on to various alloys developed in Britain. OK here's one for you. Anyone ever heard of a metal known as "Colmonoy"?
Its a low temperature hard facing metal. Can be put onto steel at a low-ish temperature like solder. I first heard about it many years ago when riding speedway, this stuff was used to put hard facing onto the steel shoe worn on the left boot. It was very "slippery" on dirt. Even though it was made for a far higher purpose http://www.wallcolmonoy.com/nickel-based-alloys/

[J.A.W.]

@ W-D.. inlines.. yeah, of course they are.. as H24s - they both have a pair of crankshafts that would be familiar to anyone who's seen a CBX/6 apart..

Radials have a massive 'master-rod' with slaves pivoting from it..& they all whirl about the same big-end - like a bloody merry-go-round..

[husaberg]

I never knew that RR did a doubled up Kestral V12
Rolls-Royce Vulture W24 42.5 liters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Vulture
315244315245

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, they tried quite a few X-types.. Vulture was an X..( all 4 banks hangin' off the same crank) but they didn't work out..

Yet the Napier Lion, a W - actually 'broad arrow' shape, (3 x 120`banks) worked well, must've been a harmonics/inertia thing..

[husaberg]

Yeah, they tried quite a few X-types.. Vulture was an X..( all 4 banks hangin' off the same crank) but they didn't work out..

Yet the Napier Lion, a W - actually 'broad arrow' shape, (3 x 120`banks) worked well, must've been a harmonics/inertia thing..

According to RR the Vulture was a success, it was just not needed.
To save development time it was decided to use 4 merlins in the Lancaster and the Sleeve Valve Bristol Napier sleeve valve was chosen for the English Typhoon.

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, R-R would bloody say that..

The Vulture shat itself.. & R-R never got an X-mill or anything with more'n 12 cylinders to do much..

The 36 litre Sabre (same as R-R Griffon capacity) steadily improved from a 2,200hp rating for take-off to 3,500hp..

[WilDun]

@ W-D.. inlines.. yeah, of course they are.. as H24s - they both have a pair of crankshafts that would be familiar to anyone who's seen a CBX/6 apart..

Radials have a massive 'master-rod' with slaves pivoting from it..& they all whirl about the same big-end - like a bloody merry-go-round..

Yeah I do understand that - maybe we are seeing the same thing from a different perspective, I was basically only discussing the make up of the cylinders, sleeves and heads in the first place.
I do of course see your point, ie when you look at them from a layout point of view, (very different) - so maybe I should climb down and eat humble pie here! perhaps just lay that one to rest!

BTW. - Was it the Vulture that they tried in the Manchester? (twin engined predecessor to the Lancaster). just lay that one to rest!

[husaberg]

BTW. - Was it the Vulture that they tried in the Manchester? (twin engined predecessor to the Lancaster). just lay that one to rest!

Yes........

[J.A.W.]

& being flogged - hauling a heavy load into the sky - killed 'em..

The Vulture fitted to the Hawker Tornado ( R-R powered Typhoon equivalent) lasted a bit longer..
..but it was cancelled too, when the Vulture finally got the chop..

150,000+ Merlins built, but fewer than 20,000 of the big hp Brit aero-recips..

There were plans for a Super-Mosquito powered by a pair of Sabres, which would've saved
the lives of 10s of thousands of aircrew shot down over Germany..

Too little, too late..

Hawker Fury flew with Centaurus, Griffon, & Sabre big Brit aero-mills, went best with Sabre, but RAF was jet-bent by then..

https://oldmachinepress.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/hawker-fury-i-sabre-powered/

[husaberg]

& being flogged - hauling a heavy load into the sky - killed 'em..

The Vulture fitted to the Hawker Tornado ( R-R powered Typhoon equivalent) lasted a bit longer..
..but it was cancelled too, when the Vulture finally got the chop..

150,000+ Merlins built, but fewer than 20,000 of the big hp Brit aero-recips..

There were plans for a Super-Mosquito powered by a pair of Sabres, which would've saved
the lives of 10s of thousands of aircrew shot down over Germany..

Too little, too late..

Funny enough the Merlin was not developed with MOD funding Private investor only
From memory the Brit airforce initially po-poed the Mozzy as well.
I read somewhere the bomb payload of the Mozzys was pretty much the same as a B17. when taking into account a full fuel load for long missions
The mozzy was Lighter faster stronger cheaper used less rationed materials and was radar stealthy to boot.
I can't remember the raid but they used some to bomb a germen prison where some key French resistance members were. the Mozzys managed to bomb the outer walls of the prison and the bunkroom/mess of the Germans

[J.A.W.]

Yeah - the commercial/financial skullduggery that went on, even when in dire wartime need - was incredible..

Check this link out for R-R chicanery vs Napier..

www.hawkertempest.se/index.php/contributions/stories/130-the-greatest-engines-of-all-time-by-ljk-setright

[WilDun]

Some good reading there guys, thanks, I enjoyed that - the Sabre was even better than I had thought! - pity about the time it all came about though!
The reason I said hat the mechanics of the time weren't happy doing work on the Sabres was that a guy I met who was the tail gunner on an old Stirling bomber (lumbering death trap) said that the mechanics had always talked about Napier engines being a nightmare (48 spark plugs to check or change for a start!).
I also happened to read this bit - "As it happens, the two firms were mutually supportive and the centrifugally cast austenitic steel sleeves for the Sabre were actually made by Bristol". - So I do get it right some of the time! :rolleyes:

My wife's uncle and his co-pilot died on the Dutch border with Germany in that same Stirling when it was brought down by flak after bombing the Ruhr - the tail gunner only just managed to get out before it crashed, but rest of the crew had managed to get out earlier - all the survivors were taken prisoner.
He (pilot) was only 21. (the tail gunner was 18 I think), ...... what a tragedy of a war - well I guess they all are!

[J.A.W.]

For sure, Bristol had spent a fair bit of Air Min money on their sleeve R & D, so they had to (grudgingly, AFAIR) comply
with A.M. instruction to assist Napier with theirs.. whereas R-R had enough political clout to say 'get stuffed'..

Maybe the story you heard was apocryphal , since the spark plugs on the Sabre were centred in the top of the heads,
located in plain sight/reach, unlike many aero-mills..

& like the sleeve valve Bristol radials (such as the Stirling used), it had no pesky poppet valve gubbins - above the piston..

At the RNZAF museum at Wigram there is a Bristol Hercules cylinder exhibit that can be hand-cranked to demo the sleeve motion,
& it is very slick-smooth, no lumpy cam/valve spring commotion there..

A Sabre on display in NZ.. www.wowcars.co.nz/napiersabre

[WilDun]

Maybe the story you heard was apocryphal , since the spark plugs on the Sabre were centred in the top of the heads,
located in plain sight/reach, unlike many aero-mills..
Like the sleeve valve Bristol radials (such as the Stirling used), it had no pesky poppet valve gubbins - above the piston..


Yes, you are probably right but then as that guy was a tail gunner and not an engineer or a mechanic and he might have just heard it from one disgruntled mechanic at the local pub, who knows! but, that's what he told me! (think I'm beginning to lose my credibility here!!) :facepalm:
I'm really very impressed with the Sabre anyway, most people have never even heard of it and it never was adopted by the motor industry or any of the others, guess it wouldn't be good in racing but it would be good for anything else ........then of course, the cost of producing it would be considerable I guess!

[husaberg]

Yes, you are probably right but then as that guy was a tail gunner and not an engineer or a mechanic and he might have just heard it from one disgruntled mechanic at the local pub, who knows! but, that's what he told me! (think I'm beginning to lose my credibility here!!) :facepalm:
I'm really very impressed with the Sabre anyway, most people have never even heard of it and it never was adopted by the motor industry or any of the others, guess it wouldn't be good in racing but it would be good for anything else ........then of course, the cost of producing it would be considerable I guess!

There were a few sleeve valve car engines produced. Riley I think it was raced with them in semi official capacity.
Can't remember his name but it was Major John Treen or something.
I posted up the Bar and Stroud stuff not that long ago I thing Jap had one and I think Anzani did one for Brough Superior

[J.A.W.]

I did read that, thanks..

& Ilmor & Bishop were looking at an F1 sleeve valve application, ~10 years ago.. so of course, the FIA banned it..

Here is Roy Fedden - Bristol engineering boss - stating the reasons for adopting the sleeve valve.. ( the hi-po versions were all single sleeve)..

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1941/1941%20-%202830.html

&, some more Sabre info.. www.aviationshoppe.com/sabre-ii-sleeve-valve-engine-p-256.html

[WilDun]

Just another (significant) thing in the poppet v sleeve valve.
I did read in an article about the Merlins in the Spitfires, Hurricanes, etc. - when stationed in the N African desert, being considered very reliable in the sandy conditions even though it was almost impossible to keep the sand completely on the right side of the filters, so obviously poppet valves could tolerate this quite well.
I would however hate to see the sleeve valve engines operating in the same conditions. Not sure that the Typhoons and Tempests did operate there, but then I guess Beaufighters etc. (Bristol sleeve valve radials) possibly would have done.

[J.A.W.]

It was a matter of designing/fitting proper filters..

Sabre powered Typhoons & Tempests were sent to Africa for trials, but were deemed too useful in NW Europe - for war service there..
Tempest Mk 6 were 'tropicalised' ( more cooling/filtration capacity) & served in Africa/Middle East post war..

Interestingly, Kermit Weeks, a US enthusiast, has the sole Sabre Tempest in private hands ( the bloody Poms scrapped every one they had),
& is restoring it to fly.. he has a couple of Sabres too.. none have flown since the last in RAF service were retired ~60 years ago..

[WilDun]

Interestingly, Kermit Weeks, a US enthusiast, has the sole Sabre Tempest in private hands ( the bloody Poms scrapped every one they had),
& is restoring it to fly.. he has a couple of Sabres too.. none have flown since the last in RAF service were retired ~60 years ago..

Hard to see how anyone could actually do that (ie scrap machines which took so much dedication and effort to produce) - goes to show that they really didn't have the slightest clue what engineering is all about, their interest was only about power and glory, or doing everything to the letter of the law to please their masters. - but I guess that's a trait somewhere in all humans!

The Moto Guzzi V8 was a good example, when Guzzi stopped racing in 1957 the bean counters came in and ordered all the existing examples to be destroyed, one escaped the hammer when an employee managed to spirit it out to a shed at the back of the factory where it sat for years, now there are several replicas!

All the Mosquitoes which the RNZAF acquired after the war I'm told were lined up and set on fire! - dunno if they took the Merlins off first. Anyway I'm glad to see some dedicated guys who are again building and also rebuilding Mosquitoes just a few kilometers from where I live now - one has just been done for an American collector and may be the only one flying in the world (for the moment).

I can remember a small paddock of Corsairs being slowly dismantled for scrap at Rukahia near Hamilton back in the sixties - even then I thought that was sacrilege!

I also remember when I was a schoolkid of about 15 in the late fifties, going into the local scrapyard (regularly went in to check out two reasonably good looking Bristol radials from a crashed Wellington Bomber lying on top of the heap!) All my thoughts were on how I could somehow buy them and take them home! - never happened unfortunately.
That was before I actually understood much about sleeve valves!

[Kickaha]

All the Mosquitoes which the RNZAF acquired after the war I'm told were lined up and set on fire! - dunno if they took the Merlins off first.

I've seen the photos of them being burnt, the Ashburton Aviation museum has some some, a lot of the motors were sold for scrap

[J.A.W.]

& a sensible bloke named Smith in Mapua - saved a Mosquito ( & others) from that fate..
( I was fortunate enough to be invited to climb into the cockpit of his Mossie,& its a very businesslike office)..

Keith Park saved the Spitfire that is in the Auckland W.M. Museum, but too bad he didn't grab a Tempest instead..

There were quite a few Spitfires saved, but the Poms scrapped every Typhoon & Tempest they had..
The only intact survivors ( only 1 Typhoon, ) were elsewhere, & the Sabre Tempest in the RAF Museum was roughly
cobbled together out of scrapped components - after belated realisation that they had'nt kept - one - left intact..

They smashed many of their interesting prototypes too, no Spiteful, MB-5, Sabre-Fury, or even a Hornet, was saved..


Mind you, I read years ago that when the RAF completed the Tempest F6 'tropical trials' in Sudan, the unused spare Sabre
mills, still gease packed in their factory crates, were simply dumped into the Nile off the end of the military pier in Khartoum..

Anyone feel like a fishing trip? So what's Sir Peter Jackson doing.. he can afford it, & he could make a doco of the expedition..

[husaberg]

& a sensible bloke named Smith in Mapua - saved a Mosquito ( & others) from that fate..
( I was fortunate enough to be invited to climb into the cockpit of his Mossie,& its a very businesslike office)..

Keith Park saved the Spitfire that is in the Auckland W.M. Museum, but too bad he didn't grab a Tempest instead..

There were quite a few Spitfires saved, but the Poms scrapped every Typhoon & Tempest they had..
The only intact survivors ( only 1 Typhoon, ) were elsewhere, & the Sabre Tempest in the RAF Museum was roughly
cobbled together out of scrapped components - after belated realisation that they had'nt kept - one - left intact..

They smashed many of their interesting prototypes too, no Spiteful, MB-5, Sabre-Fury, or even a Hornet, was saved..


Mind you, I read years ago that when the RAF completed the Tempest F6 'tropical trials' in Sudan, the unused spare Sabre
mills, still gease packed in their factory crates, were simply dumped into the Nile off the end of the military pier in Khartoum..

Anyone feel like a fishing trip? So what's Sir Peter Jackson doing.. he can afford it, & he could make a doco of the expedition..

There was a bunch of aussies I think that were looking for Jungle buried kittyhawks or spitfires never heard what happened, from memory the poms wrapped and buried them when the war was going bad.
Aussie had a heap of Mosquitos that were scrapped, that Merlin that was made into a v twin bike in Aussie in the early 70's was from a mozzy I think.

[husaberg]

& a sensible bloke named Smith in Mapua - saved a Mosquito ( & others) from that fate..
( I was fortunate enough to be invited to climb into the cockpit of his Mossie,& its a very businesslike office)..

Keith Park saved the Spitfire that is in the Auckland W.M. Museum, but too bad he didn't grab a Tempest instead..

There were quite a few Spitfires saved, but the Poms scrapped every Typhoon & Tempest they had..
The only intact survivors ( only 1 Typhoon, ) were elsewhere, & the Sabre Tempest in the RAF Museum was roughly
cobbled together out of scrapped components - after belated realisation that they had'nt kept - one - left intact..

They smashed many of their interesting prototypes too, no Spiteful, MB-5, Sabre-Fury, or even a Hornet, was saved..


Mind you, I read years ago that when the RAF completed the Tempest F6 'tropical trials' in Sudan, the unused spare Sabre
mills, still gease packed in their factory crates, were simply dumped into the Nile off the end of the military pier in Khartoum..

Anyone feel like a fishing trip? So what's Sir Peter Jackson doing.. he can afford it, & he could make a doco of the expedition..

There was a bunch of aussies I think that were looking for Jungle buried kittyhawks or spitfires never heard what happened, from memory the poms wrapped and buried them when the war was going bad.
Aussie had a heap of Mosquitos that were scrapped, that Merlin that was made into a v twin bike in Aussie in the early 70's was from a mozzy I think.
googles later

They found them but they were poms
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2239771/Dozens-WWII-spitfires-buried-jungle-Burma-flying-years.html

[J.A.W.]

Quite a few of the R-R 'Merlins' still about are actually ex-Centurion tank 'Meteor' mills, (unsupercharged )..

Aussies built Mosquitos, Mustangs & Merlins too, most of the RNZAF Mossies were ex-RAAF, AFAIR..

But there are fewer than 15 Sabres known to exist - reasonably intact - & none running, from ~5,000 built, sadly enough..


I think that Burma story is BS though.. ( SS/Nazi gold train buried in tunnel, anyone?)

Poms didn't let any Spit fighter squadrons outside of Blighty 'til after they'd lost Burma,
& post-war, the Burmese AF also flew late Spits, so they'd use any surplus stuff to be found there too..

[WilDun]

They found them but they were poms
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2239771/Dozens-WWII-spitfires-buried-jungle-Burma-flying-years.html

Husa,
What? Skeletons? :laugh:
Last I heard was that guy had got financial backing for the search from a rich (but fickle) Russian, who eventually withdrew when he found that progress was too slow.
Also it seems that the 'cache' is under the main runway of an ex wartime airfield (now an airport) - but if that's true, you can bet that there will be a lot of money needing to be coughed up before they would actually be allowed to remove them. Maybe there have been other developments since, but that's the last I heard.

[J.A.W.]

Well, finding Sabres dropped off a pier into the Nile - is a location that's maybe more easily pinpointed..

Anyhow, back to bikes..

Here is the service manual for the Kawasaki H2R F 750 racer from ~40 years ago..

Check out the running in schedule.. www.3cyl.com/mraxl/manuals/h2r/h2rservice.pdf

[WilDun]

I've seen the photos of them being burnt, the Ashburton Aviation museum has some some, a lot of the motors were sold for scrap

I dunno, - who the hell could cut up a Merlin for scrap, even in those days? - Money hungry animals!

Everything I once knew as the latest thing (including the 750 Kawasaki) is now being dug up and closely examined like an ancient curiosity! - Says something doesn't it!
:(

[J.A.W.]

Post war, even new, unused Allison V12s were affordable as scrap value - on the basis of their high silver content bearing shells..

Have a look in Len Southward's museum, he used those big surplus-to-service aero-mills as race-boat power-plants.

[husaberg]

Post war, even new, unused Allison V12s were affordable as scrap value - on the basis of their high silver content bearing shells..

Have a look in Len Southward's museum, he used those big surplus-to-service aero-mills as race-boat power-plants.

Everyone forgets how long material rationing went one post war like the Landrovers folded chassis and aluminium body were done that way because box section and sheet steel were rationed the fergies had a lot of aluminium as that was not rationed as much. (talking pom land here) Even the food I think was still rationed until the 50's.
The power supply were I lived until the 50's was provided by a huge WW1 Uboat engine that they got as reparations.
I never seen it but I have seen pics of the rings it was huge. You could stand in the bores.

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, the poor bloody Poms would've starved/frozen if it wasn't for all the quality sheep products sent from downunder..

& all the British hot, hi-po, shiny chromed stuff went stateside.. Poms got crappily painted, low compression shit..

Even at the end of the `60s - the Yanks got the new BSA/Triumph triples 1st, while Poms had to wait..
..wait until the Yanks said nah, those things are so fugly,
- you gotta put some classic Lightning/Bonnie tanks & pipes on 'em - or we don't want 'em..

[WilDun]

- you gotta put some classic Lightning/Bonnie tanks & pipes on 'em - or we don't want 'em..

That was the big downfall in all their industries, the high and mighty directors it seemed, refused to recognize the Americans all important (stupid maybe) need for a " seen to be " society and so missed out big time to Japan!
The great Geoff Duke would agree with that, that's what he found after moving from Norton to Gilera and spending a lot of time in Italy!

[J.A.W.]

Credit to poor ol' Norton there, since they sensibly dropped the old-fashioned 'Featherbed' chassis for the isolastic Commando..
& lost the 'Fastback' look too, when the Yanks wouldn't buy it..

Even went lurid metal-flake/bright primary colours & hi-pipes ( & Hi-Rider! Factory Chopper!)
- when the Yanks said they did want 'em ( but kept the classy black 'n' gold classic look option too)..

Too bad about the 'Combat' debacle, when they were steadily improving the ol' darlin', otherwise..

A decent Commando could always whip a Honda 750/4 on-road performance-wise, too..

( It just needed an understanding, sympathetic fettler as owner/operator, eh Brit-bike fans)..


Check out the dyno charts - of the bikes from that era - as tested, here.. www.kawtriple.com/mraxl/articles/1973%20Superbikes/superbikes2.htm

[WilDun]

Credit to poor ol' Norton there, since they sensibly dropped the old-fashioned 'Featherbed' chassis for the isolastic Commando..
& lost the 'Fastback' look too, when the Yanks wouldn't buy it..

Even went lurid metal-flake/bright primary colours & hi-pipes ( & Hi-Rider! Factory Chopper!)
- when the Yanks said they did want 'em ( but kept the classy black 'n' gold classic look option too)..

A decent Commando could always whip a Honda 750/4 on-road performance-wise, too..

( It just needed an understanding, sympathetic fettler as owner/operator, eh Brit-bike fans)..


Check out the dyno charts - of the bikes from that era - as tested, here.. www.kawtriple.com/mraxl/articles/1973%20Superbikes/superbikes2.htm

Yes I had a ride on a Commando (think it might've been a Combat actually) and I must say I was highly impressed!, but I did still like my old (featherbed) Dominator 600 though! - never did try an Atlas, but I guess it probably shook!
However, on a short circuit street circuit such as we have here, my 250 Suzuki could blow all the big twins into the weeds, even if the frame did behave like a bucking bronco! - However,that was how it was in those days and I guess that's why the (fickle) American market rejected the ones we are talking about - didn't matter what colour (or is it color?) you painted them, how well they handled, or how impressive the power curve was, they all wanted Hondas and Kawasakis - sheep mentality I guess!
Look how the Harley is revered over there (and here) - heard one American guy declare that the Harley is the fastest motorcycle in the world! - I didn't hear him say anything on the handling.

The Isolastic suspension on the Commando was really just a compromise to stave off the evil day when they would have to listen to Dr. Lanchester about his ideas on balance shafts! as was the spherical rollers on the mains used to allow flexing of the crankshaft.
Also true, a good fettler was needed to maintain the "corral" of a frame which kept that mighty beast of an engine confined!

[husaberg]

Credit to poor ol' Norton there, since they sensibly dropped the old-fashioned 'Featherbed' chassis for the isolastic Commando..
& lost the 'Fastback' look too, when the Yanks wouldn't buy it..

Even went lurid metal-flake/bright primary colours & hi-pipes ( & Hi-Rider! Factory Chopper!)
- when the Yanks said they did want 'em ( but kept the classy black 'n' gold classic look option too)..

Too bad about the 'Combat' debacle, when they were steadily improving the ol' darlin', otherwise..

A decent Commando could always whip a Honda 750/4 on-road performance-wise, too..

( It just needed an understanding, sympathetic fettler as owner/operator, eh Brit-bike fans)..


Check out the dyno charts - of the bikes from that era - as tested, here.. www.kawtriple.com/mraxl/articles/1973%20Superbikes/superbikes2.htm

Small but important point
The Honda had a disk brake
An electric starter
A five speed gearbox
4 cylinders
Was OHC.
Was more reliable
The design ie was not was directly based on a 1940's 500 twin.
It was also likely cheaper (It certainly was cheaper than a 750/3)
Likely had a better warranty

[J.A.W.]

Those things mattered to some people H, but in America, as here, in the`70s bike sales boomed..

The Mach III that came out in `69 with the Honda 750, had no electric start, or disc brake,
but it could drag it off, & cost ~50% less..

& The Z1 had all those things when it came out in `72, & even so, commanded a significant price premium over the Honda..

Just like in NZ, there were buyers who wouldn't buy Jap.. no matter what.. & others who'd buy the quickest thing..

Others yet wanted the style,chrome & sound, or perceived prestige.. H-D have made a living out of that ever since..
It would be a joke to see a Sportster ( that still looks much the same as back then) in a "Superbike" comparo now..

& Will, I passed my licence roadtest on a mate's Dommie 88, the examiner cop noting that they were "quality" machines!

[J.A.W.]

Funnily enough, H-D picked up the ex-Commando isolastic system, & still uses it.. to good effect..
& ironically, the current 'Commando' uses both a balance shaft & off-set crank to try & quell its vibes..

The porky current Bonnie uses a similar set-up & yeah, its still tuned slower than a decently crisp old-school Commando..

[WilDun]

Funnily enough, H-D picked up the ex-Commando isolastic system, & still uses it.. to good effect..
& ironically, the current 'Commando' uses both a balance shaft & off-set crank to try & quell its vibes..

The porky current Bonnie uses a similar set-up & yeah, its still tuned slower than a decently crisp old-school Commando..

That's a shame that a V twin especially one with the cylinders in line with each other (via a forked rod) needs an Isolastic system, considering that a V engine can be set up in such a way that it can be quite smooth (vibration wise) - but that's all sacrificed in the search for a certain look (ie a narrow V).
Being interested in aircraft, I was following a story of a guy in the states who was constructing a homebuilt, intending to power it with a Harley engine, unfortunately when it came the time to fire it up, the whole project ground to a halt because of vibration!

Having said all that, a modern Harley is not a bad looking machine, but many of those who ride them are not doing it because they like bikes in general - they are riding them because they have a need to be part of a group, with all the frills and dressing up that goes with it.

Also, let's face it, as HUSA says, the big parallel twin as we knew it was a pre-war design and is about the worst layout you could have for vibration, (ie except for my old Beeza B33 single) -it used to leave my arms and hands with no feeling at all on a long trip!

BTW, contrary to what most Americans would think, Messers Harley & Davidson were both English!

[J.A.W.]

Sure were W-D, & Triumph was established by Germans..
To be fair, Turner's pre-war Triumph Speedtwin was a most economical & compact way of increasing
the valve & piston area of a 500, for performance, even if its 360` crank meant it was not much better than a single for vibes..

It was really only when Norton pumped their post-war twin up to 750cc in the `60s ( for the Yanks) that the isolastic
system was really needed, & it made a success of the Commando, which IMO, remains the epitome of a classy sporty
old school Brit-bike, mechanical nightmare or no..

[WilDun]

Sure were W-D, & Triumph was established by Germans..
To be fair, Turner's pre-war Triumph Speedtwin was a most economical & compact way of increasing
the valve & piston area of a 500, for performance, even if its 360` crank meant it was not much better than a single for vibes..

It was really only when Norton pumped their post-war twin up to 750cc in the `60s ( for the Yanks) that the isolastic
system was really needed, & it made a success of the Commando, which IMO, remains the epitome of a classy sporty
old school Brit-bike, mechanical nightmare or no..

Yes, all true - I never really had a chance to compare the Commando frame to the Featherbed, but I must say that the Featherbed was a joy to ride.
I seem to remember that the guy who was called in to rescue Norton from the decline and got the Commando started, wasn't even a motorcycle designer and he was horrified that the Featherbed had so many curved tubes and set about consigning it to the scrapheap, when to be honest it would have done a sterling job (maybe modified here and there) for a lot more years.
Now , however it is dawning on people that curved tubes are actually very strong and huge "backbone" tubes also have resonance problems.
A good example of the large diameter backbone frames was the 250 and 350 Aermacchi - great little production racers but i have seen them twitch almost uncontrollably on the odd occasion!
A lot of people of course will swear by the Commando and no doubt it was a lot of fun, but really it was born in order to prolong the days of a (sadly) outdated engine.
........Still,who knows, even I might be wrong! :)

[J.A.W.]

Poor ol' AMC (Norton-Villiers by then) had bugger all, & it was the Commando frame, housing the only
near-competitive engine thay had, that saved 'em - for nearly a decade, anyhow..

Yanks wanted power, & some comfort too - the Atlas was too coarse, but the light Commando gave
a smooth ride where it mattered, & was quick enough to be a competitive 'superbike' - back then..

A bunch of rubber donuts holding the drive-train apart from the chassis shouldn't have worked,
& poorly set-up Commandos can be awful/frightening, but a properly sorted isolastic is surprisingly good..

[husaberg]

Poor ol' AMC (Norton-Villiers by then) had bugger all, & it was the Commando frame, housing the only
near-competitive engine thay had, that saved 'em - for nearly a decade, anyhow..

Yanks wanted power, & some comfort too - the Atlas was too coarse, but the light Commando gave
a smooth ride where it mattered, & was quick enough to be a competitive 'superbike' - back then..

A bunch of rubber donuts holding the drive-train apart from the chassis shouldn't have worked,
& poorly set-up Commandos can be awful/frightening, but a properly sorted isolastic is surprisingly good..

Triumph/BSA had the Rocket 3/Trident it was a better engine.
Hele as a stop gap wanted to do the Quantrant 1000/4.
315359315360
He had drawn up a modular series of engines all based around an ohc design the culminated in a 1000cc V5.

Not totally sure but the Commando was an overgrown AJS Stormer frame which I think is a Ken Sprayson original design (Ken was Reynolds Tubes guy)
Pretty sure the commando frames were originally built in the Reynolds factory as Norton had no welding facilities. Same reason as the featherbed.

No offence, but other than the mildly interesting fastback I always fount the Commando to be ugly.
It was only to be a stop gap until the Cosworth P motor was ready.
The isolastics were designed by Hele he actually had the patent in his own name.
The poms had the designs and designers but the management would not invest in toolng for the factories.

look at the Fury/Bandit that they actually started making them. They were told to stop.

[J.A.W.]

Dunno if it was all Doug Hele's doing.. Hooper, Hopwood, Bauer, Trigg et al. were all in on it..

As for the Trident/Rocket 3 being "better", sure its more powerful.. but its a big lump,
& as an example of a Brit 'nuts & bolts' mill, its a real mechanical 'dogs breakfast'..

The Bandit/Fury & Cosworth were another couple of sadly/typically British 1/2 arsed examples of 'failure snatched from the jaws of victory'.

[husaberg]

Dunno if it was all Doug Hele's doing.. Hooper, Hopwood, Bauer, Trigg et al. were all in on it..

As for the Trident/Rocket 3 being "better", sure its more powerful.. but its a big lump,
& as an example of a Brit 'nuts & bolts' mill, its a real mechanical 'dogs breakfast'..

It was also smoother bigger newer and had a bigger CC potential.
I read the Vetter x75 story the other day it was funny. The bike was never meant to have those long chopper front forks Bsa Triumph got the measurement f-ed up.

[J.A.W.]

Well, dunno H, if you look at the original prototype BSA Hurricane, it does have extension slugs in the stanchions..

Commando was a usually smoother machine to ride, from a riders perspective, even if the mill was dancing in rubber..

[husaberg]

Well, dunno H, if you look at the original prototype BSA Hurricane, it does have extension slugs in the stanchions..

Yes it does but the forks he used were short ceriani's so he made the inserts.to get them to Std Length
Then when BSA Triumph did it they added the extra length to already longer forks.:killingme
look at the rake on the prototype.It was no Chopper
315363315364

This is what they sold. Vetter was actually a road race guy. it was meant to look light and modern.
315365

[J.A.W.]

Ok, ta for the heads up there H,

The BSA guys had probably been watching 'Easy Rider' while tripping their tits off anyhow, so figured the chopper-look was in..

[husaberg]

Ok, ta for the heads up there H,

The BSA guys had probably been watching 'Easy Rider' while tripping their tits off anyhow, so figured the chopper-look was in..

Funny enough the Japanese made the same mistake in the 90's they got the drawing f-ed up and made the frame spars 2 inches too long pretty sure it was for Suzuki on a frame for Kevin.
Yamaha cocked up one in the 90's and had crushed all there old frames so had to go get some from ROC which was an exact copy of the design they had crushed.

[WilDun]

Seems to me that all the designers and engineers at Norton and Triumph had the will to look ahead, the management didn't want to know, but I guess they had all the problems associated with trying to stave off the Japanese and having the cost of doing some (very fast) development work both in marketing and innovative engineering, to be able to hang on. - all history now but valuable lessons learnt for any future assault on the market.

Geez, I can't keep up with these posts! :)

[J.A.W.]

Yamaha had a strange Brit-fetish back then too..

XS 650 was an attempt at a better BSA Lightning; TX 750 a Commando ( with dreaded oil-frothing balancer shafts instead of isos);
TX 500/Triumph Daytona; XS 750/Triumph Trident; TT/SR500 & BSA B50; XS 1100/Quadrant; & they even tried a Vincent V-twin copy..

& about 1/2 of them., were worse than the Brit equivalents..

[husaberg]

I read an article about Edward Turners chauffeur .
He was very honest about what an arrogant ass Turner was what I never knew was Turner was a very larger shareholder in Triumph. 10-or 20%.
He said he was probably the closest thing to a friend turner had and even he didn't like him.
The management were all more interested in board room manoeuvring and its politics than making bikes.
Funny thing was Turner came back from a trip to japan in the fifties and remarked to him words to this effect
Gee lad if we don't sort ourselves out we won't be making bikes in 25 years time.
Soon afterwards he order a new Jag or similar on the companies behalf.
Turner never did details Arthur Wicks used to do that for him. Plus he hated racing and wouldn't let them go racing for publicity.

[WilDun]

Yamaha had a strange Brit-fetish back then too..
& about 1/2 of them., were worse than the Brit equivalents..

All fine examples of where not to go and a warning to the other Japs, - goes to show that Japanese were not as good at copying as we were led to believe! - trouble is, they were underestimated and they were much more capable than we all thought - now they are respected, so we should all underestimate the Chinese at our own peril!

Husa, a lot of those guys were arrogant pratts, I have heard that Dr Lanchester (famous for the Lanchester cars and pre-selector gearboxes, balance shafts etc.) was a very clever man, but had no tolerance at all for those of lesser intellect! - probably "one of the chaps, don't you know"
But that was back in the days when bank managers etc etc. were revered by all.
Also, it seems that Ferdinand Porsche liked to work on the shop floor with his mechanics and often lay under a vehicle "working on it" and listening to what his men were saying about him. - they say that's the truth, but who knows!

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, Honda & the others with their MZ 2-stroke rip-offs showed that 50+ years ago, in bike racing..

Yamaha's Brit-copying was more like an adaptation, whereby the original gist of the plot - was often lost in the re-make..

[husaberg]

Yeah, Honda & the others with their MZ 2-stroke rip-offs showed that 50+ years ago, in bike racing..

Yamaha's Brit-copying was more like an adaptation, whereby the original gist of the plot - was often lost in the re-make..

I look at those original Kawaski A10 copies and they were better engines.
they combined the bore and stroke of the A65 made it look like the more elegant A10 gave it a 5 speed box and twin carbs.
Fixed the silly plain bush on the oil feed side as well
Granted they were not BSA rocket goldstar pretty but they were far prettier than the A65 ugly egg.
315367

Percy Tait I think it was got the second model XS650 to steer properly same as he did for Triumph.

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, why they needed Percy is wierd.. RD/TZ chassis of the same era were ok..

Maybe it was that the XS was so bloody XS-ive, weight-wise..

Bob Trigg, who styled the Commando, later worked for Yamaha.. park an RD LC next to a roadster Commando, & you'll see it..

& I always thought the XJ Seca Yamahas - had a fair bit of Vetter Hurricane blended in too..

[WilDun]

Yeah, Honda & the others with their MZ 2-stroke rip-offs showed that 50+ years ago, in bike racing..

Yamaha's Brit-copying was more like an adaptation, whereby the original gist of the plot - was often lost in the re-make..

MZ did well considering the restrictions they had to face during their best years, and some people say that Degner was an "asshole' for defecting to Japan with all their secrets.
How did he come to have access to all their drawings etc. in the first place? - was he a rider AND engineer? - Was he a crook?
I mentioned that before somewhere and got shot down. Was Degner the only one who benefitted from the expertise of Walter Kaaden and MZ? or were they all in on it? - or was it a covert thing, - definitely not convinced!

[husaberg]

Yeah, why they needed Percy is wierd.. RD/TZ chassis of the same era were ok..

Maybe it was that the XS was so bloody XS-ive, weight-wise..

Bob Trigg, who styled the Commando, later worked for Yamaha.. park an RD LC next to a roadster Commando, & you'll see it..

& I always thought the XJ Seca Yamahas - had a fair bit of Vetter Hurricane blended in too..

I was thinking that about the LC when I posted your pics.
What used to bugger up the Japanese with the handling is that its subjective.
It wouldn't fit into the figures only design approach.
the major problem was they never understood the weight distribution.
Honda got away with it on the smaller bikes but once they got up in the HP for Hailwoods 500 I was a piece of shit.
Suzuki also could never get it right with the 250 Square four one of the riders used to ballast it with lead at the IOM
Same with the Yamaha 250 V4 they actually had a hinged steering head to try different angles
Problem was they never understood making one change effects the other geometry.
Even in the late 80's Honda got the Center of gravity wrong with the upside down NSR500.
It wasn't until they took at heap of photos secretly from Gardners camper that they realised they should have been raising it rather than lowering it.
That story was direct from Gardner his camper had tinted windows Kevins bike was stripped and parked next to it the Honda people spent hours taking 100's of photos that they later blew up to full size.
Suzuki never even knew till years later.
There is a great story of Kenny Roberts making the Japanese engineers remove the compression damping parts in a shock and going a couple of seconds quicker.
Or Doohan and burgess trailing an Ohlin's fork and shock and instantly going a full second or two quicker. without any adjustments

[J.A.W.]

Indeed, some tried harder than others, but the Nippon value of "face" ( mana) means good ideas can be stymied..

FWIW, a check of H1/Mach III Kawasaki steering specs shows factory alterations in rake, trail, offset & etc dimensions..
.. for each new model iteration - for years.. so yeah, they were tryin'..

[Frits Overmars]

The Mach III that came out in `69 with the Honda 750, had no electric start, or disc brakeWho needs an electric starter on a 500 cc two-stroke triple? You could start the Mach III with one hand on the kickstarter. Using a drum brake on that bike was not such a good idea however, and the handling was, well, exciting.
I owned two Kawasaki 750 H2s and while the frame was much stiffer, I felt I had to fit a second front brake disc (after some minor fiddling, like fitting 38 mm Mikunis and home-brewn expansion pipes :msn-wink:).


Now, however it is dawning on people that curved tubes are actually very strong and huge "backbone" tubes also have resonance problems. A good example of the large diameter backbone frames was the 250 and 350 Aermacchi.Strong is not the issue. Frames need to be stiff and if you try to accomplish that with curved tubes, you need a lot more material than when using straight tubes.
And I wouldn't describe the Aermacchi backbone as large.


MZ did well considering the restrictions they had to face during their best years, and some people say that Degner was an "asshole' for defecting to Japan with all their secrets.Thousands and thousands of Eastgermans fled from their 'democratic' country, leaving all their valuables behind; would you call them all assholes?
Ernst Degner did what they all did, only he happened to have some valuables in his head. Who could blame him for that?

[J.A.W.]

Who needs an electric starter on a 500 cc two-stroke triple? You could start the Mach III with one hand on the kickstarter. Using a drum brake on that bike was not such a good idea however, and the handling was, well, exciting.
I owned two Kawasaki 750 H2s and while the frame was much stiffer, I felt I had to fit a second front brake disc (after some minor fiddling, like fitting 38 mm Mikunis and home-brewn expansion pipes :msn-wink:)

Hell yeah, that was my point F..

I was lucky enough to pick up a set of good ol' Denco pipes ( that needed a bit of pumping out) to go with the big Mikunis
for my H2 - way back in the day.. & it had the optional 2nd disc on it when I bought it, good score..

Willing mills, they'd run flat out & you - or the fuel - would flag 1st.. esp' in freezin'weather - no heat soak worries..

[husaberg]

Who needs an electric starter on a 500 cc two-stroke triple? You could start the Mach III with one hand on the kickstarter. Using a drum brake on that bike was not such a good idea however, and the handling was, well, exciting.
I owned two Kawasaki 750 H2s and while the frame was much stiffer, I felt I had to fit a second front brake disc (after some minor fiddling, like fitting 38 mm Mikunis and home-brewn expansion pipes :msn-wink:).

Strong is not the issue. Frames need to be stiff and if you try to accomplish that with curved tubes, you need a lot more material than when using straight tubes.
And I wouldn't describe the Aermacchi backbone as large.

Thousands and thousands of Eastgermans fled from their 'democratic' country, leaving all their valuables behind; would you call them all assholes?
Ernst Degner did what they all did, only he happened to have some valuables in his head. Who could blame him for that?

I actually wonder if the weight distribution on the Mach 3 was on purpose so it could be the bike so fast it would wheelie everywhere.
I can't remember the1/4 mile time but there was nothing anywhere near it at all.
It was (looking back a sensation) when it came out much like the CBR900RR Fireblade or the DT1 Yamaha where it changed the whole way the other bikes were compared.

[J.A.W.]

I actually wonder if the weight distribution on the Mach 3 was on purpose so it could be the bike so fast it would wheelie everywhere.
I can't remember the1/4 mile time but there was nothing anywhere near it at all.
It was (looking back a sensation) when it came out much like the CBR900RR Fireblade or the DT1 Yamaha where it changed the whole way the other bikes were compared.

Yeah, it (along with TRs) made the Manx Norton/G 50 Matchless into 'classic racers' overnight..

The Factory issued guidance for a fast start was..
..stand on tip toes - leaning hard over bars, dial max rpm, drop clutch & siddown when tyre was spinnin' hard..

I watched Ginger Molloy roll up to the tree at the Meremere strip on his roadrace H2R to the jeers of the V8/Brit bike guys..
He silenced them.. 1stly with the LOUD pipes, & 2ndly with a mid 10 @ ~135mph run.. this was way back in the `70s..

[WilDun]

Strong is not the issue. Frames need to be stiff and if you try to accomplish that with curved tubes, you need a lot more material than when using straight tubes.
And I wouldn't describe the Aermacchi backbone as large.

Very true Frits, but they did look more elegant on a road bike, and easier than trying to accomodate a huge engine underneath a large diameter spine.
There was a Swiss guy (Egli) who built the ultimate large diameter spine frame for the Vincent, (and other engines as well), which I was greatly interested in, Then I discovered that single tubes had a resonant frequency (which most tubes have I guess) and which could in certain circumstances take over - of course I must add that I never did actually experience that, :confused:


Thousands and thousands of Eastgermans fled from their 'democratic' country, leaving all their valuables behind; would you call them all assholes?
Ernst Degner did what they all did, only he happened to have some valuables in his head. Who could blame him for that?

No Frits I would not call them that at all, please understand that I did not call Ernst Degner that either! - What I said was that some people did actually call him just that!
I was just wondering how he managed to get hold of all that information, so could he have been involved with it's technical development also and could he possibly have escaped with Kaaden's blessing?
Many have depicted him as a villain which most probably is not true! - and no I do not blame him for leaving - it was also a terrible way for Kaaden to have to manage his world shaking technology (which was going nowhere) by being so restricted in everything he tried to do!

[Frits Overmars]

There was a Swiss guy (Egli) who built the ultimate large diameter spine frame for the Vincent, (and other engines as well), which I was greatly interested in.
Then I discovered that single tubes had a resonant frequency (which most tubes have I guess) and which could in certain circumstances take over.Any piece of any solid material has a resonant frequency; don't worry too much about it.
Fritz Egli constructed most of his frames over big four-cylinder four-stroke engines but he also produced beauties like a frame for the 250cc Rotax tandem-twin engine.
315376 315378 315377


No Frits I would not call them that at all, please understand that I did not call Ernst Degner that either! - What I said was that some people did actually call him just that! No worries mate. I understood it as you meant it.


I was just wondering how he managed to get hold of all that information, so could he have been involved with it's technical development also and could he possibly have escaped with Kaaden's blessing?Ernst Degner was not only the rider; he also worked in close cooperation with Kaaden, developing the engines. But I cannot imagine that Kaaden wilfully let Degner go.

[Grumph]

I actually wonder if the weight distribution on the Mach 3 was on purpose so it could be the bike so fast it would wheelie everywhere.
I can't remember the1/4 mile time but there was nothing anywhere near it at all.
It was (looking back a sensation) when it came out much like the CBR900RR Fireblade or the DT1 Yamaha where it changed the whole way the other bikes were compared.

When i raced my mach 3, I fitted clubmans bars so as to get my (considerable) weight forward. Worked a treat, it steered much better.
I ran it at a Ruapuna drag race meeting back in the day. 2nd fastest time of the day to Rod Sylvester's Chev coupe, 11.8 if I remember correctly.

Spine frames, i use larger diameter than OE tube in my Aermacchi replicas. Lighter gauge too - OE Aermacchi is 6.5mm wall thickness.....and it's soft low quality tube.

[WilDun]

I did have a short ride (not a race) on an early Mach1 and it was quite a thrilling experience I must say,!
Thankfully I owned a Suzuki T20 at the time and was used to the narrow power band even if it wasn't nearly as powerful. It had bendy forks and handled like a wet sausage but I loved it and (almost) got it tamed when it spat me off at Onekawa (Napier).
It was only mildly modified (by me) and did around 110mph, but as soon as it hit 7000 the front wheel suddenly pawed the air, much like the Mach 1.
However my racing career didn't amount to much, I wasn't much of a mechanic in those days.

Frits Thanks for your kind words, I really would not want to upset anyone, but in the 'typed word' it's sometimes hard to convey the meaning properly.
I remember seeing Horst Fugner, Ernst Degner and Werner Krumpholz racing the MZ. and I think Mike Hailwood tried them, also a Kiwi guy, John Hemplemann had a ride on one.
Silvio Grasetti took the cake, I'm pretty sure it was on an MZ, when he started waving to the crowd on the last lap (somewhere) and got passed just before the line, losing first place! - I didn't Google that, but it might be on there somewhere.

I was always in awe of Egli and his frames and I going to build one for a special, then I decided to do one featherbed style instead (and I did).

Grumph, - I was also very keen on the Aermacchi but there never was a lot of them in New Zealand for some reason -

[J.A.W.]

BSA built spine frames ( some from Ti) for its MX bikes back in the `60s,
& BSA/Triumph productionised them as oil-in-frame chassis in a couple of variants - B25/50, Adventurer - & 650/750 twins..

Egli also built space frames for TZ race bikes too..

[husaberg]

Any piece of any solid material has a resonant frequency; don't worry too much about it.
Fritz Egli constructed most of his frames over big four-cylinder four-stroke engines but he also produced beauties like a frame for the 250cc Rotax tandem-twin engine.
..

And beautiful looking bodywork..................................
For that he would have needed an Italian rather than a Australian I think.
Frits was most famous here for his Vincent frames.
He also commissioned his own wheels and forks.
Some of histories best spines imo

Egli for a TZ
315381
Wooley Yam made by what was to become Spondon
315382
Egli Rep made by Terry Prince (for Vincent)
315383
Norton Laydown Manx
315384
Grump version for a Machi
315385
Waddon for a 125 Rotax
315386

[WilDun]

Husa,
All familiar looking stuff to me, I must say! The first Egli (pic#3)looks like it was for the Vincent engine.

Wasn't the bike in pic #4 an experimental Norton? or is it a replica of an experimental Norton - with disc brake?

Haven't seen many Aermacchi machines lately and that one sure looks good Grumph - looks like it's quite small too! Guess the Aermacchi is a natural layout for the spine type frame.

As I recall, The late Dr. Gordon Blair's QUB 500 racer had a spine frame too (as ridden by Ray McCulloch).

Then there was the Linto? (2xAermacchi 250 engines combined).

[Grumph]

[QUOTE=husaberg;1130896428]

Grump version for a Machi

Trying to work out how long ago that was taken - that bike is coming up 20 years old shortly.
Russ still brings it out occasionally.

[husaberg]

Husa,
All familiar looking stuff to me, I must say! The first Egli (pic#3)looks like it was for the Vincent engine.

Wasn't the bike in pic #4 an experimental Norton? or is it a replica of an experimental Norton - with disc brake?

Haven't seen many Aermacchi machines lately and that one sure looks good Grumph - looks like it's quite small too! Guess the Aermacchi is a natural layout for the spine type frame.

As I recall, The late Dr. Gordon Blair's QUB 500 racer had a spine frame too (as ridden by Ray McCulloch).

Then there was the Linto? (2xAermacchi 250 engines combined).
I added in some clarifications

The pic is the real experimental Norton it has a conical Manx type hub.

I have the pics of the QUB (Colin Seeley did that one)
315387
Plus many other here and here
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/151865-Old-multi-cylinder-bikes-of-the-50s-to-later-on-Japanese-British-Euro-etc
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/145224-Race-chassis?highlight=chassis+thread

[WilDun]

I have the pics of the QUB (Colin Seeley did that one)


That's the one! - I think it was quite successful too in the hands of Ray Mcculloch. and I remember Colin Seely and Blair working together.
Not often you get a racing motorcycle (possibly) sponsored by the taxpayer, - don't think the Kiwi taxpayer would be happy with that arrangement! but then Blair and co. also did a lot of engine development work for Yamaha and (indirectly for Toyota,) because Yamaha did four and five valve cylinder heads for Toyota!
That's my understanding of how it was anyway.:rolleyes:

[husaberg]

That's the one! - I think it was quite successful too in the hands of Ray Mcculloch. and I remember Colin Seely and Blair working together.
Not often you get a racing motorcycle (possibly) sponsored by the taxpayer, - don't think the Kiwi taxpayer would be happy with that arrangement! but then Blair and co. also did a lot of engine development work for Yamaha and (indirectly for Toyota,) because Yamaha did four and five valve cylinder heads for Toyota!
That's my understanding of how it was anyway.:rolleyes:

The MNZ sponsored Britten to race in NZ that caused a stir for sure. they even changed the rules to suit. I thought it was great others did not.
NZ tax payers have spent plenty on yachts.
The QUB stuck mainly to Irish races close to home without the works bikes.
they later sponsored and helped with a Harris Yamaha team with Jerremy McWilliams
They also did a lot of other work with manufactures including Jaguar.

I posted this ages ago
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130225567&highlight=blair#post1130225567

[J.A.W.]

Italian taxpayers paid for Seeley to design `70s Ducati frames..

& later Ducati copied ( & even admitted it!) the F-750 J-P Norton Commando space frame for their later 'trellis' chassis..

[Grumph]

The MNZ sponsored Britten to race in NZ that caused a stir for sure. they even changed the rules to suit. I thought it was great others did not.
NZ tax payers have spent plenty on yachts.

NZ taxpayers gave Britten a Development Finance grant too...never paid back to my knowledge. MNZ sponsored to the tune of $1000 per meeting that one season. Never found out if they thought it was good value....

[husaberg]

Italian taxpayers paid for Seeley to design `70s Ducati frames..

& later Ducati copied ( & even admitted it!) the F-750 J-P Norton Commando space frame for their later 'trellis' chassis..

They even used his chain adjusters.
Yip all those are in the Chassis thread.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/145224-Race-chassis?highlight=chassis+thread

[husaberg]

NZ taxpayers gave Britten a Development Finance grant too...never paid back to my knowledge. MNZ sponsored to the tune of $1000 per meeting that one season. Never found out if they thought it was good value....

The John Shand days. They at the time said it was great value. The Kawaski importers were pretty livid about it as they had spent some pretty big coin themselves. I think the Ducati boys were a bit miffed as well but not sure.
there was a fair bit of bitching and counter responses from the MNZ in Kiwirider at the time I could likely dig them up if I delve into that pile of mags at some stage.
they said the boost to the spectators and the media coverage was actually good value for money. I thought the same. They were getting non bike people interested.
In my opinion Its a bloody shame we never really capitalised on the Malboro series stuff from the 70's.

The Britten at 1000 dollars per race meeting was likely cheaper than the Irish riders bar tab from the similar time period.
Who was it we had out here
Joey Dunlop
Ian Lounger
Who else?

[J.A.W.]

& yet I did enjoy seeing the BSL 500 GP waste the Britten V1000 - in a classic speed showdown - down Puke's back straight..

[WilDun]

NZ taxpayers sponsored Britten to the tune of $1000 per meeting that one season. Never found out if they thought it was good value....

If they had checked it all out, then they would have to check out every grant they gave to anyone and that would really open a can of worms!

[WilDun]

[QUOTE=husaberg;1130896521

The Britten at 1000 dollars per race meeting was likely cheaper than the Irish riders bar tab from the similar time period.
Who was it we had out here
Joey Dunlop
Ian Lounger
Who else?[/QUOTE]

Joey was an Ulsterman, Ian Lougher is Welsh!! Joey certainly was good at handling a bike but not the type to "lair it up" and most definitely not a pisshead, (even though he owned a pub)!
- get it right Husa!

[husaberg]

Joey was an Ulsterman, Ian Lougher is Welsh!! Joey certainly was good at handling a bike but not the type to "lair it up" and most definitely not a pisshead, (even though he owned a pub)!
- get it right Husa!

Who were the rest come own does anyone remember I don't.
I remember one riding an Aprilia 125

PS I also know the stuff Joey did for charity.
I also know he liked a beer. Plus a fag and his family
He was also far beyond good on a bike
I have a TT programme here somewhere I think came from them.

[WilDun]

Who were the rest come own does anyone remember I don't.
I remember one riding an Aprilia 125

PS I also know the stuff Joey did for charity.
I also know he liked a beer. Plus a fag and his family
He was also far beyond good on a bike
I have a TT programme here somewhere I think came from them.

Well those guys were loose at a time when I had more or less given up being interested in bikes and being quite a bit younger than me, I wasn't really familiar with their names.
Guess you probably met Joey when he was out here with all the guys from Ireland, (not just Ulstermen! :confused:)
I spoke to him briefly but it wasn't all that easy to strike up a conversation with him, (thought maybe it was me), but no, that was just Joey, a quiet guy! - almost a 'god' over there.

I have lived almost fifty years in new Zealand but I grew up about 15 kilometres away from Armoy where Joey & Robert grew up and just four or five kilometres from where Robert was killed in the NW 200.
I'm really a Kiwi now, but I still hung on to the accent (just as a keepsake). - the bike days were great there when we were 'kids', a lot of fun!

[J.A.W.]

Ol'Joey was pretty good on the long road circuits, but as I recall not the quickest on the shorter stuff..
He didn't do much winning, downunder - did he?

[WilDun]

Ol'Joey was pretty good on the long road circuits, but as I recall not the quickest on the shorter stuff..
He didn't do much winning, downunder - did he?

He didn't come downunder much, so that might be the reason, and I guess when he did come it was for a break,(eg. a beer and a fag with Husa) - he was a road race specialist, Stoner didn't win a lot at the TT either! - can't compare Apples with Oranges - eh! - how about Cam Donald?

Both excellent at what they did though, I had a lot of respect for Stoner's ability, but maybe he got out at the right time, no such luck for Joey.

[J.A.W.]

He didn't come downunder much, so that might be the reason, and I guess when he did come it was for a break,(eg. a beer and a fag with Husa) - he was a road race specialist, Stoner didn't win a lot at the TT either! - can't compare Apples with Oranges - eh! - how about Cam Donald?

Both excellent at what they did though, I had a lot of respect for Stoner's ability, but maybe he got out at the right time, no such luck for Joey.

Doubt that KC ever tried racing at the I.o.M. TT.. Croz won there though.. Did Joey ever win a G.P.?

[Grumph]

Well those guys were loose at a time when I had more or less given up being interested in bikes and being quite a bit younger than me, I wasn't really familiar with their names.
Guess you probably met Joey when he was out here with all the guys from Ireland, (not just Ulstermen! :confused:)
I spoke to him briefly but it wasn't all that easy to strike up a conversation with him, (thought maybe it was me), but no, that was just Joey, a quiet guy! - almost a 'god' over there.

I have lived almost fifty years in new Zealand but I grew up about 15 kilometres away from Armoy where Joey & Robert grew up and just four or five kilometres from where Robert was killed in the NW 200.
I'm really a Kiwi now, but I still hung on to the accent (just as a keepsake). - the bike days were great there when we were 'kids', a lot of fun!

Can't remember who the others were in the "Irish" team. They ran at the Brighton street meeting here. Local mark taylor who had ridden my F3 Kawa had broken his TZ so we hauled the 500 Kawa out of the shed, converted it to petrol and he ran against the Irish. 4ths and 5ths against Joey RS250 and Hepburn GSXR1100...and a flock of Irish ridden TZ's. One of the support mechanics was a guy Kirby who had run Hondas in the IOM in F2 and F3. Had a long yarn with him.
There's a guy 50m down the road from me who went to school with Joey's next older brother...If you've heard Joey talk you know just what he sounds like...

[WilDun]

Doubt that KC ever tried racing at the I.o.M. TT.. Croz won there though.. Did Joey ever win a G.P.?

I remember Croz stunned us all at the Wanganui cemetry circuit when he beat some of the new Yam TR3's, riding a T350 Suzuki ! - Seems he was well loved by the Italians when he rode for Ago.
No, I don't remember Joey ever winning on the track, and I doubt if he ever claimed to be a winner of anything at any time. road racing was his passion and the only people he ever pissed off was probably Honda, - at the beginning, they hadn't realised that he couldn't be manipulated (like everybody else) but they gradually had to give in! - a unique guy.

He regularly won the Ulster gp.

[WilDun]

There's a guy 50m down the road from me who went to school with Joey's next older brother...If you've heard Joey talk you know just what he sounds like...

Yes, can't ask you his name here of course, but that's the same accent as I have, however some people tell me it's 50% Kiwi now!

[husaberg]

Doubt that KC ever tried racing at the I.o.M. TT.. Croz won there though.. Did Joey ever win a G.P.?

From memory Joey won the world TT series pre superbike but more modified I think foggy won it as well before on going to superbikes. (edit might have been endurance for foggy)
The NZer that everyone forgets won one as well I think (TTF2) Des Barry on a TZ350

[Frits Overmars]

Frits was most famous here for his Vincent frames.Was I ? While most people here finally get my first name right, spelling it with an S at the end, you are robbing Swiss Fritz Egli of his German-style final Z.


As I recall, The late Dr. Gordon Blair's QUB 500 racer had a spine frame too (as ridden by Ray McCulloch).
Then there was the Linto? (2xAermacchi 250 engines combined).The QUB 250-twin was hung from a spine tube (the only spine-based Seeley frame I know of) while the QUB 500 was fitted in a more usual Seeley frame.
The rotary drum-valve QUB 250 was one of the most unsuccessful bikes ever, well over 10 hp down on the contemporary rotary disc-valve MZ 250.
The simple air-cooled piston-ported QUB 500 single on the other hand was quite successful, beating the Nortons at power, weight and handling.
The Linto had a multi-tubular frame, no spine.
315408315409315410

[husaberg]

Was I ? While most people here finally get my first name right, spelling it with an S at the end, you are robbing Swiss Fritz Egli of his German-style final Z.


Right you are I am that used to doing it now I don't even notice.
Do the swiss have any road racing now or is it still banned along with running washing machines after 8 clock.
I remember they only had hill climbs.

First space frame I can remember was a 1920's or 30's Francis Barnett.
Their slogan was built like a bridge because it was bolted together like a bailey bridge trellis
315411

[Frits Overmars]

Who were the rest come own does anyone remember I don't.Does Jeremy McWilliams ring a bell?


Right you are I am that used to doing it now I don't even notice.Keep up the good work. I won't tell Fritz Egli.



Do the swiss have any road racing now or is it still banned along with running washing machines after 8 clock. I remember they only had hill climbs.I never knew about the hill climbs, but road racing is still 'verboten!' over there (I'm spending most of my time in Germany now and it seems that if you wish to fit in, you have to put at least three exclamation marks after every German word you write).

[husaberg]

Does Jeremy McWilliams ring a bell?
Can't remember his Curly head
Was he one of them though?
What does he do now he used to ride for the QUB sponsor bike before going back to 250 and then on to Aprilia.
Bloody underrated rider glad when he finally had a bike that could win a race on and won one or was it just a pole at aussie that year?

[WilDun]

The QUB 250-twin was hung from a spine tube (the only spine-based Seeley frame I know of) while the QUB 500 was fitted in a more usual Seeley frame.
The rotary drum-valve QUB 250 was one of the most unsuccessful bikes ever, well over 10 hp down on the contemporary rotary disc-valve MZ 250.
The simple air-cooled piston-ported QUB 500 single on the other hand was quite successful, beating the Nortons at power, weight and handling.
The Linto had a multi-tubular frame, no spine.


That clears up a few misconceptions I had! I hadn't realised that the 250cc QUB was not really up to scratch, but I guess he had quite a lot of failures like everybody else.

I particularly like the Linto, a very good looking machine - and that space frame! However i don't remember it winning any significant victories. Was it the Linto that suffered bad vibration problems? .... or was it the Harley Davidson two stroke version (ie when they bought out Aermacchi)

And I've found at least some of the Ernst Degner story, - talk about intrigue! much more involved than it would have seemed, unbelievable what those people had to put up with and the lengths the authorities went to in order to prevent them escaping, what were they trying to acheive anyway? - what were they thinking?

BTW. I remember there was another guy in Switzerland who made six speed gearboxes for Manx Nortons in the sixties/early seventies - Schafleitner I believe it was (might've been another Fritz too!).

[husaberg]

That clears up a few misconceptions I had! I hadn't realised that the 250cc QUB was not really up to scratch, but I guess he had quite a lot of failures like everybody else.

I particularly like the Linto, a very good looking machine - and that space frame! However i don't remember it winning any significant victories.

And I've found at least some of the Ernst Degner story, - talk about intrigue! much more involved than it would have seemed, unbelievable what those people had to put up with and the lengths the authorities went to in order to prevent them escaping, what were they trying to acheive anyway? - what were they thinking?

The linto was very competitive and cheap when it appeared it was alas extremely fragile mainly I thing due to it ability to rev bloody high it did have some very good results. but plenty of failures along with it.
It appeared to late as by that stage the two stokes were getting a foothold and there was no need for a Manx /G50 replacement esp a fagile one.

[Frits Overmars]

I remember there was another guy in Switzerland who made six speed gearboxes for Manx Nortons in the sixties/early seventies - Schafleitner I believe it was (might've been another Fritz too!).That was Michael Schaftleitner. He made gearboxes for just about everybody; was pretty good at crankshafts too.

[WilDun]

That was Michael Schaftleitner. He made gearboxes for just about everybody; was pretty good at crankshafts too.

Yes, just checked it out - he was Austrian I believe, but is no longer with us.
I can't seem to stop all this stuff flooding back into my mind, but it's great to be able to check it out immediately by Google before it all gets lost again!

BTW. What does the name Schafleitner actually mean? - maybe someone who makes flights for arrows, possibly??

[Frits Overmars]

What does the name Schafleitner actually mean? - maybe someone who makes flights for arrows, possibly??Schaft = shaft; that's right. But I don't know about Leitner. Maybe I should ask Hans Holzleitner :D (Hans was the Austrian Rotax engineer who developed the tandem-twin, amongst other things). Come to think of it: the Austrians seem to have a habit of using last names derived from their occupations.

[Grumph]

Schaft = shaft; that's right. But I don't know about Leitner. Maybe I should ask Hans Holzleitner :D (Hans was the Austrian Rotax engineer who developed the tandem-twin, amongst other things). Come to think of it: the Austrians seem to have a habit of using last names derived from their occupations.

Not unique to Austrians, the anglo saxons were pretty good at it too. Butcher, Baker, Tanner, Driver, Shepherd come to mind.

The Linto was not cheap. Nothing hand made in Italy is...Yes, a double up of 250 macchi singles but not done any easy way. With the cam(s) driven off a layshaft their direction of rotation was reversed as compared to the singles. If the factory could have grouind a symmetrical profile as they are supposed to be it wouldn't have been a problem...As you may gather, i've seen a few macchi cams.....Added to that a tendency for the end to break off the layshaft in the primary drive and you really have to know what you're doing to run one.
I have seen a pic of what is undoubtedly a Linto frame with a Rotax snowmobile motor installed...Now that should have been good.

[WilDun]

Not unique to Austrians, the anglo saxons were pretty good at it too. Butcher, Baker, Tanner, Driver, Shepherd come to mind.

Then the Anglo Saxons originally came from Northern Europe, especially Germany (Saxony) after all! - Northern Holland and Denmark also - they didn't actually invade Britain, they just came in over time!


I have seen a pic of what is undoubtedly a Linto frame with a Rotax snowmobile motor installed...Now that should have been good.

Husa, any chance of a picture of that one?

[WilDun]

Schaft = shaft; that's right. But I don't know about Leitner.

Seems that Leitner means 'someone who lives on the mountain slope' - he probably did too! so there you go, good old Google!

[Grumph]

Husa, any chance of a picture of that one?

It's in Mick Walker's Classic European Motorcycles. In the Austria section - under Rotax.
caption doesn't say Linto frame - but it is.

As most know by now, my internet is at the level of a 4E Villiers and i can't post pics.

[husaberg]

Not unique to Austrians, the anglo saxons were pretty good at it too. Butcher, Baker, Tanner, Driver, Shepherd come to mind.

The Linto was not cheap. Nothing hand made in Italy is...Yes, a double up of 250 macchi singles but not done any easy way. With the cam(s) driven off a layshaft their direction of rotation was reversed as compared to the singles. If the factory could have grouind a symmetrical profile as they are supposed to be it wouldn't have been a problem...As you may gather, i've seen a few macchi cams.....Added to that a tendency for the end to break off the layshaft in the primary drive and you really have to know what you're doing to run one.
I have seen a pic of what is undoubtedly a Linto frame with a Rotax snowmobile motor installed...Now that should have been good.

i'd have to dig it up but at the time it was by accounts relatively inexpensive and certainly competitive they even made far more than I thought. An aussie whose name escapes me had brought one at the time for the continental circus.
The article was written at the time it came out and was about a few privateers racing in Europe at the time. I have a feeling one was Dobbs or Dodds. (edit it was Dave Stanley who I have never heard of)
Id thought I posted some Linto stuff but it appears I haven't. I have a feeling one Linto was speed trapped at a huge speed at either Monza or the IOM.
They were also some that raced them in sidecars which likely accounted for why so few engines were left.
I also suspect that the running gear esp the forks was not really up to the increased stresses. MV's have thicker walled forks
IMO they were beautiful but I always liked Machis. I am pretty sure mr S above also made the gearbox.

[J.A.W.]

Seems that Leitner means 'someone who lives on the mountain slope' - he probably did too! so there you go, good old Google!


Shaft in Mt = mine? Or caveman?

His modified AMC boxes were of course used by the Konig racers too, being non-unit..

As today, a Kiwi TT Industries box - could be utilized to run an ex-snow/marine 2T mill of suitable size - for a bike..

[WilDun]

Shaft in Mt = mine? Or caveman?

A man of many talents! - His name certainly has come a long way from it's humble beginnings in a cave on the slopes of the Austrian Alps!

Didn't realize his gearboxes were used in such a variety of machinery!

Does anyone remember Helmut Fath and his four cylinder engine, designing and developing it by himself in his garage, testing it on a car trailer out in the forest so as not to annoy his neighbours?

[WilDun]

No? - ah well, - I've done a "Husa" and dug it up myself!

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http://www.letrabe.es/Clasp/helmuth-faths-urs-500/

[husaberg]

No? - ah well, - I've done a "Husa" and dug it up myself!

315421

http://www.letrabe.es/Clasp/helmuth-faths-urs-500/

That original motor was hard case note how it breathed two ways additional air from the stacks up to.
A later version was later put into a frame for road racing (Seeley I think did the frame) pretty sure I had posted that or was going to.

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, late development Hispano-Suiza ( & the licenced copy, Soviet Klimov) V12 aero-mills also used an auxillary air only inlet..
but they were 4 valve heads & ran 1 inlet rich with fuel, & the other air only, on separate cam timing..

They also ran 1 each of the paired exhaust valves - ported discretely out either side of the head, per cyl.. weird or what, eh..

Yamaha, of course, picked up on Fath's URS 90`crank, as the 'cross-plane' to fire their inline 4, V4-wise..

[WilDun]

That original motor was hard case note how it breathed two ways additional air from the stacks up top.
A later version was later put into a frame for road racing (Seeley I think did the frame) pretty sure I had posted that or was going to.

Yeah, I think that early engine (or at least the head) was probably inspired by the Matra formula 1 engine of the day, (except that the Matra didnt have the two sets of stacks) - I could of course be wrong! but judging by where the inlet ports were positioned, I should imagine that they would have to have been modified it if it was to be used in a solo bike!

I'm sure you posted a lot of this stuff in your earlier thread but people (like me) are a bit lazy about going back to find out! :rolleyes:

[WilDun]

Yamaha, of course, picked up on Fath's URS 90`crank, as the 'cross-plane' to fire their inline 4, V4-wise..

Got any info on Fath's 90 deg crank? - sounds interesting if used in an inline four.

[J.A.W.]

Same-same, 'cept the Fath crank was a built-up rolling element bearing item, like most 2Ts, Z1s, GS Suzukis & whatnot..
& a bit like the TZ 750, effectively being paired twin cranks running a jackshaft.. ( wonder why Yam didn't run the 90`option on the TZ, instead of firing in pairs?)

4T 90`inline crank configuraton "sounds interesting" - just like a 4T V4, as the Yamahas do.

[WilDun]

Same-same, 'cept the Fath crank was a built-up rolling element bearing item, like most 2Ts, Z1s, GS Suzukis & whatnot..
& a bit like the TZ 750, effectively being paired twin cranks running a jackshaft.. ( wonder why Yam didn't run the 90`option on the TZ, instead of firing in pairs?)

4T 90`inline crank configuraton "sounds interesting" - just like a 4T V4, as the Yamahas do.

I vaguely remember some guy who tried to tame one of the big British Twins with a 90deg crank - Triumph? Beeza? I dunno, - he may have managed that to some degree, (no pun intended).
Can't really Google that till I've got a name to punch in! Maybe I'll find it tonight ie if someone else hasn't already found it.
Smoko's over , back to the garage to tidy up before 'someone' get's back. :rolleyes:

[J.A.W.]

Irving ( Vincent/Repco engineer) suggested it in his classic treatise many decades ago..

Yamaha started selling it in production big vertical twins ~20 years ago.. & both Triumph & new Norton do it in their lumps..

Cammed 4Ts require valve re-timing too, natch..

BMW however, keep their 800 vertical twin at 360`& use another 'virtual 3rd' recip element for balance control..

Funny thing is, you can manipulate XS 650 built-up rolling element cranks to ( near) that staggered configuration too,
- but the 90`V-twin & 180`flat-twin cranks run 360` pin arrangements..

[WilDun]

Irving ( Vincent/Repco engineer) suggested it in his classic treatise many decades ago..
BMW however, keep their 800 vertical twin at 360`& use another 'virtual 3rd' recip element for balance control..


Irving was a very clever man!
Didn't Doug Hele propose that idea for Triumph? - he worked for the wrong company I reckon.
Think that type of arrangement may have been discussed before in Husa's other thread, on old bikes of the sixties.

I liked the sixties road going Honda 180 deg cranks, that arrangement makes for a pleasant sound and the Hondas didn't seem to have any problems with vibration from the "rocking" motion - sort of unique sound you don't hear anymore.

[J.A.W.]

Honda made vertical twins ( & V4s) with both 180`& 360` cranks..
360' firing is much more pleasant, both for feel, & sound..
(& 'bout even for vibes, although different - in felt sensation) for 4Ts -in my experience

Current Honda vertical twins run offset cranks ( as previously mentioned),
- but Kawasaki still do the nasty busy-buzzy feeling old 180`set-up,
& the BMW solution feels/sounds best, IMO..

Although, for sure - cranks that feature 120`multiples of three, are even better..

[husaberg]

Irving ( Vincent/Repco engineer) suggested it in his classic treatise many decades ago..

Yamaha started selling it in production big vertical twins ~20 years ago.. & both Triumph & new Norton do it in their lumps..

Cammed 4Ts require valve re-timing too, natch..

BMW however, keep their 800 vertical twin at 360`& use another 'virtual 3rd' recip element for balance control..

Funny thing is, you can manipulate XS 650 built-up rolling element cranks to ( near) that staggered configuration too,
- but the 90`V-twin & 180`flat-twin cranks rum 360` pin arrangements..

Irvings pick was 76 degrees. From memory it was something to do with the other piston being at max velocity
I have posted the whys in th eese thread years ago the jury's out on whether it is better than 90 degrees, but both are far better than 360.
Quite a few bit twins have been rejigged to both.

[J.A.W.]

"Better"?

For making a cheap pseudo-V-twin, maybe..

I like the feel & aural 'blatt' of a decently crisp, well tuned/fettled old-school Commando with pea-shooters,
& it sure delivers a "better" ride - IMO ( & by the performance figures), than a current porky-type faux V-twin Bonnie..

http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Mags/1970s/1973NortonMC-World.pdf

To get a 12.75 @ 105mph 1/4 mile - from a current Bonnie - is a tad spendy..

[husaberg]

"Better"?

For making a cheap pseudo-V-twin, maybe..

I like the feel & aural 'blatt' of a decently crisp, well tuned/fettled old-school Commando with pea-shooters,
& it sure delivers a "better" ride - IMO ( & by the performance figures), than a current porky-type faux V-twin Bonnie..

http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Mags/1970s/1973NortonMC-World.pdf

To get a 12.75 @ 105mph 1/4 mile - from a current Bonnie - is a tad spendy..

Smoother less likely to shake itself to pieces and not need rubbers to isolate vibes. better drive too as well as lovely offbeat growl.
I think energy spent shaking stuff up and down could be better used to spin stuff round and round.( this is a bit of Jan and Frits paraphrased)

[Frits Overmars]

Not unique to Austrians, the anglo saxons were pretty good at it too. Butcher, Baker, Tanner, Driver, Shepherd come to mind.You forgot Miller. How could you forget Miller?
(Müller is the most frequent family name in Germany).
"Good evening Sir. Did you make reservations?" "Yes, name of Müller" :whistle:

[J.A.W.]

Smoother less likely to shake itself to pieces and not need rubbers to isolate vibes. better drive too as well as lovely offbeat growl.
I think energy spent shaking stuff up and down could be better used to spin stuff round and round.( this is a bit of Jan and Frits paraphrased)

Doesn't matter for a cruiser mate.. its the feel at that level of performance, the balance shafts & other needless pork stifles even that..

Commando is lighter & has a cammy kick out, on top of the long-stroke torque thrust.. get a go on one, you'll know then..

[husaberg]

Doesn't matter for a cruiser mate.. its the feel at that level of performance, the balance shafts & other needless pork stifles even that..

Commando is lighter & has a cammy kick out, on top of the long-stroke torque thrust.. get a go on one, you'll know then..

IF it is at 90 or 76 it won't need a balance shaft to have tolerable vibes. or prophylactic mounts

[Frits Overmars]

Does anyone remember Helmut Fath and his four cylinder engine...Helmut did not do just the one.
After he had become sidecar world champion with a BMW, he had some difficulties in making BMW listen to his wishes, so he built the 500-4 URS engine, a four-stroke with a number of novel ideas like the 90°-cranks, the split inlet tracts and the Kugelfischer fuel injection.
Later in life he saw the light and built a 500-4 two-stroke boxer with four rotary inlet discs; two contra-rotating discs stacked above one another for each pair of cylinders, so the inlet ports would open twice as fast. And finally he built a 250-2 boxer, the HF3.
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[J.A.W.]

IF it is at 90 or 76 it won't need a balance shaft to have tolerable vibes. or prophylactic mounts

Yet.. they do.. have balance shafts..& are built massively heavy around them..

A well set up Commando also derives a positive heeled over handling feel - from that resilient rubber - too, oddly enough..

[husaberg]

Yet.. they do.. have balance shafts..& are built massively heavy around them..

A well set up Commando also derives a positive heeled over handling feel - from that resilient rubber - too, oddly enough..

As long as they are shimmed right.
WHat I am saying is there has been plenty of old brits converted to 76 and 90 cranks Nourish and SRM used to sell them. plenty of others have done it DIY on all sorts of engines.

[J.A.W.]

As long as they are shimmed right.
WHat I am saying is there has been plenty of old brits converted to 76 and 90 cranks Nourish and SRM used to sell them. plenty of others have done it DIY on all sorts of engines.

Yeah, I know.. & really, it serves no useful purpose for those things.. Yamaha R1M, perhaps.. but not slow revvin' cruisers..

Commando has to be shimmed right, & really also needs rose jointed lateral chassis travel-limit links..

[eldog]

:Offtopic: most likely
whats the benefit of having split crank bearings vs 'normal' ones

and
have you considered the Super Tenere offset 270' crank does that fit in with the current discussion?

its interesting that BMW use a Rotax designed twin as they also make racing and aero engines and maybe outboards as they are part of Bombadier group - they would have a range of design knowledge at hand

engine noob

[J.A.W.]

:Offtopic: most likely
whats the benefit of having split crank bearings vs 'normal' ones

Huh?

Do you mean plain bearings - one piece crank?

Original Norton Commandos had a "split" crank with plain big end bearings & rolling element mains..

[husaberg]

:Offtopic: most likely
whats the benefit of having split crank bearings vs 'normal' ones

and
have you considered the Super Tenere offset 270' crank does that fit in with the current discussion?

its interesting that BMW use a Rotax designed twin as they also make racing and aero engines and maybe outboards as they are part of Bombadier group - they would have a range of design knowledge at hand

engine noob
Are you meaning plain?
less friction, cheaper to make and service (Multis)more rigid, but needs high pressure and clean oil

Roller bearing
Making truing assembling and disassembling a multi cylinder pressed up crank is expensive and fiddly.

That single BMW (Supermono) had a rotax as well they likely can't be arsed, when there is one they can use of the shelf. BMW was tied up with Husky last I heard.
the tenre or TRX is a 90 crank 360-90 =270. they called it that to distance it from A Ducati.

[J.A.W.]

Helmut did not do just the one.
After he had become sidecar world champion with a BMW, he had some difficulties in making BMW listen to his wishes, so he built the 500-4 URS engine, a four-stroke with a number of novel ideas like the 90°-cranks, the split inlet tracts and the Kugelfischer fuel injection.
Later in life he saw the light and built a 500-4 two-stroke boxer with four rotary inlet discs; two contra-rotating discs stacked above one another for each pair of cylinders, so the inlet ports would open twice as fast. And finally he built a 250-2 boxer, the HF3.
315428315429315430315431

Thanks F, that flat-4 is a bit Konig-like..

[husaberg]

Thanks F, that flat-4 is a bit Konig-like..

MV did a boxer as well.

[J.A.W.]

Are you meaning plain? less friction, cheaper to make and service (Multis)more rigid, but needs high pressure and clean oil

Making truing assembling and disassembling a multi cylinder pressed up crank is expensive and fiddly.
That single BMW had a rotax likely can't be arsed, when there is one they can use of the shelf. BMW was tied up with Husky last I heard.
the tenre or TRX is a 90 crank 360-90 =270. they called it that to distance it from A Ducati.

No, plain has more friction, but needs more oil flow too, which can be used as an internal coolant..

2Ts have managed pretty high specific outputs with their rolling element cranks, & big Z1 & GSX 4s have stood plenty of boost - as drag bike mills too..
BMW sold Husky to KTM, & their 2T DFI tech with it..

[husaberg]

No, BMW sold Husky to KTM, & their 2T DFI tech with it..

That explains why they are not so ugly now maybe.
the irony is Husaberg started because the engineers wanted to stay in Sweden when Cagiva brought them
Then KTM brought Husaberg and now they buy husky and they are all back together then.

[eldog]

Are you meaning plain? less friction, cheaper to make and service (Multis)more rigid, but needs high pressure and clean oil

Making truing assembling and disassembling a multi cylinder pressed up crank is expensive and fiddly.
That single BMW had a rotax likely can't be arsed, when there is one they can use of the shelf. BMW was tied up with Husky last I heard.
the tenre or TRX is a 90 crank 360-90 =270. they called it that to distance it from A Ducati.

meant split crank bearings, sorry Husa I dont understand your answer.

BMW was thinking F800 GS parallel twin, sounds quite different.

I am going to have to look more into this so I can start to follow this thread.:niceone:

[husaberg]

meant split crank bearings, sorry Husa I dont understand your answer.

BMW was thinking F800 GS parallel twin, sounds quite different.

I am going to have to look more into this so I can start to follow this thread.:niceone:

Split bearing are plain bearing.
I listed the pro and cons of each.
Your bike will have plain bearings
To make it sound different would not be worth it buy a Ducati or TDM or other offbeat firing twin.
It would need the balancer sorted the cams changed and made not to mention a new crank or bloody extensive modifications
Your one has the oddball pivoting balancer stirrup balancer though I think.
Get an ipod and play the sound of a vtwin.

[husaberg]

No, plain has more friction, but needs more oil flow too, which can be used as an internal coolant..

2Ts have managed pretty high specific outputs with their rolling element cranks, & big Z1 & GSX 4s have stood plenty of boost - as drag bike mills too..
BMW sold Husky to KTM, & their 2T DFI tech with it..

No way the plain bearing has almost unlimited rev Capability roller can only go so fast before they start skidding. if it was a 8000rpm plodder maybe less friction
They were great for what they were but too expensive these days for mass production or servicing long term.

Those early Hondas had built up cranks and very very special rollers but I don't think they could have made and ground a crank that small as the 125/5

[J.A.W.]

No way the plain bearing has almost unlimited rev Capability roller can only go so fast before they start skidding. if it was a 8000rpm plodder maybe les friction
They were great for what they were but too expensive these days for mass production or servicing long term.

How fast? What bearings does the Ryger use?

Yeah, plain bearing cranks are cheaper for mass production, but shit themselves at the 1st hint of oil starvation - in perfomance applications..
& recips are generally limited by piston speed before rpm, anyhow..

[Frits Overmars]

Split bearing are plain bearing.Seattle Smitty is going to tell you that most outboard engines have split roller bearings on their crankshafts.
And I once had the pleasure :brick: of dismantling an MV Agusta 750S that had them as well. Most overrated and overpriced bike I ever tested.

[ken seeber]

Jeez, hadn't looked at this site for a couple of days. Whammo, pages and pages of memories, frames and engines.
Don't chew guys have jobs? You know, pay taxes so your govt's can spend on things you don't want them to.
Anyways, I thought I'd have an indulgence by throwing in some snaps, some from my old scrapbook. I just loved the GP tiddlies. I just loved the picture of the Ossa. Santiago H must have been tiny. One of Jan Thiel, a guy who in many ways brought us all here.


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[husaberg]

Seattle Smitty is going to tell you that most outboard engines have split roller bearings on their crankshafts.
And I once had the pleasure :brick: of dismantling an MV Agusta 750S that had them as well. Most overrated and overpriced bike I ever tested.

Only because they are lazy sods..........and have lots of Cylinders
Didn't know about the MV though.
Pretty sure by reading his post about the BMW twin he meant plain though when he said split.
Akunar sell still for the stoker pins anecdotally don't seem to have much luck with them here in the 4ts.
Out of interest with the MV what were the casting like, they always look so huge but where they well finished or just so so.

Was this pretty close
I think energy spent shaking stuff up and down could be better used to spin stuff round and round.( this is a bit of Jan and Frits paraphrased)

[ken seeber]

As a further indulgence, some more pics, some of a guy who lives in Perth. :yes: The others about Dr Gordon Blair of QUB. He, in fact, came to Orbital during his sabbatical, must have been around in 1998. He was in 4 stroke mode then. I lent him this scrapbook, while he was there. Semi got him out of 4 strokes for a bit.

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[husaberg]

How fast? What bearings does the Ryger use?

Yeah, plain bearing cranks are cheaper for mass production, but shit themselves at the 1st hint of oil starvation - in perfomance applications..
& recips are generally limited by piston speed before rpm, anyhow..

I plucked 8000 rpm out of thin air:bleh:
Have a look at a F1 engine crank and the answer is there.
Cameron covered it, you could probably google it from performance streetbike or whatever it called.

As a further indulgence, some more pics, some of a guy who lives in Perth. :yes: The others about Dr Gordon Blair of QUB. He, in fact, came to Orbital during his sabbatical, must have been around in 1998. He was in 4 stroke mode then. I lent him this scrapbook, while he was there. Semi got him out of 4 strokes for a bit.
Aussies Aye
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Click on them three times

[Frits Overmars]

Was this pretty close: I think energy spent shaking stuff up and down could be better used to spin stuff round and round.( this is a bit of Jan and Frits paraphrased)Yep, I said it and Jan may have said it too.


Out of interest with the MV what were the casting like, they always look so huge but where they well finished or just so so.They were sand castings, pretty much identical to their racing engines. In fact the whole construction was, except that after the first version the racers got a chain transmission while the street version kept the original cardan shaft.
The crankshaft was bolted with saddles to the underside of the cylinder block that doubled as a lid on the big empty space of the crankcase. The gearbox was fitted from the side.
I tested the MV 750 S America-version in 1976 or so, together with the then-new Suzuki GS750 four-cylinder four-stroke. The Suzuki was at least twice as good in all respects and it cost half the price of the MV.
315454315455

[WilDun]

Helmut did not do just the one.
built a 500-4 two-stroke boxer with four rotary inlet discs; two contra-rotating discs stacked above one another for each pair of cylinders, so the inlet ports would open twice as fast. And finally he built a 250-2 boxer, the HF3.


Had forgotten about the two stroke 4 cyl boxer, and never even knew about the HF3, (almost forgot about bikes for at least 10 years - hospitalised for a while) I have missed quite a bit it seems!

BTW, Talking about using the name Muller (for devious purposes) - I thought it would have been Schmit (or is it Schmidt?). but Smith and Miller are certainly pretty common in Britain! - there is definitely a strong connection with Germany in a lot of English names, - eg Lincoln, and a lot of translations ie. sounding the same but spelt differently, eg Cole (Kohl), Brown (Braun), etc etc. - pity they keep on arguing!
Nearly forgot - then there was Mrs.Thatcher, an argument personified! :)

[Frits Overmars]

Schmidt came a close second to Müller in the German family name frequency list. Now mentioning Mrs.Thatcher reminds me of Angie, or Mutti (mother) as the Germans like to call their chancellor Angela Merkel. Did you know that she is a chemist by profession and paid for her university education by tending bar? Great character; she may look soft but the way she put Vladimir Putin in his place in fluent Russian in a live TV-broadcast, I loved it.

[WilDun]

Yep, I said it and Jan may have said it too.

They were sand castings, pretty much identical to their racing engines. I tested the MV 750 S America-version in 1976 or so, together with the then-new Suzuki GS750 four-cylinder four-stroke. The Suzuki was at least twice as good in all respects and it cost half the price of the MV.

That look was really started by Gilera with their Saturno four cylinder racer of the fifties then the designer (can't remember who) moved to MV and made an almost identical one for MV.

Geoff Duke then moved to Gilera and helped them sort out the handling and so the great rivalry between the two Italian companies started. Les Graham got killed on the MV on Bray Hill and I think Surtees took over.
I always thought that although the Gilera and MV engines looked very similar the Gilera was really a much better looking bike!

Going back in the thread (I just can't keep up) I'm fairly sure that the V8 Moto Guzzi had split (needle roller) bigends - outboard motor style!

[Frits Overmars]

I always thought that although the Gilera and MV engines looked very similar the Gilera was really a much better looking bike!Same here.


I'm fairly sure that the V8 Moto Guzzi had split (needle roller) bigends - outboard motor style!Hard to tell; the needles are there but can you see a split?
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[WilDun]

Angie, or Mutti (mother) as the Germans like to call their chancellor Angela Merkel. Great character; the way she put Putin in his place in fluent Russian in a Europe-wide live TV-transmission, I loved it.

Yes, she is a very clever and capable lady but i think not quite as abrasive as "Ma" Thatcher was!
and, "puttin" Putin in his place would be no mean feat, - Gorbachev I believe held Maggie in very high esteem though.

Taking about Russians, do you remember their 350cc 4 cylinder racer (government sponsored) with which they made an attempt at the world championship back in the sixties? - forget what they called it, but I did feel sorry that they didn't make it stick. (was that in the Kruschev era?).

I think Franta Stasny blew it into the weeds with his four stroke Jawa twin.

[WilDun]

Same here.
Hard to tell; the needles are there but can you see a split?


Pretty sure it was a one piece crank, but (as always,) I could be wrong

[Frits Overmars]

I'm fairly sure that the V8 Moto Guzzi had split (needle roller) bigends - outboard motor style!You're right mate. I kept klicking on the drawing until I could distinguish the big end bolt below.
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[Grumph]

As a further indulgence, some more pics, some of a guy who lives in Perth. :yes: The others about Dr Gordon Blair of QUB. He, in fact, came to Orbital during his sabbatical, must have been around in 1998. He was in 4 stroke mode then. I lent him this scrapbook, while he was there. Semi got him out of 4 strokes for a bit.


Blair came to Christchurch NZ on what was probably the same trip. Guest of the Engine Reconditioners Assn and spoke at their conference. The Britten boys and me were the only bike people there. Yes, he was heavily into the 4t computer simulation at that time, showed us several simulated dyno runs which came at the end of of a design stage entirely on computer....He'd just finished an engine design for Nissan, the cylinder heads had gone through three versions, none of which had actually been made, all virtual, very impressive stuff.
He got talking about combustion chamber shape and burning problems so i asked the obvious question...5 valves, given the ignition curves needed, worth the effort ? he said his mates at Toyota/Yamaha wouldn't like it, but no, not worth it...And where did i work ? For a yamaha agency...much laughter...

Split roller bearings....shit, I remember McCulloch big ends....Couple of years back i was shown a crank for a 1927 Delage GP car here. Straight 8, 1.5L about a meter long...one piece with split roller big ends. That sort of thing was common in pre war GP cars. Cost was not a consideration. The MV and the Guzzi simply carried on what was seen as best practise at the time.

[WilDun]

You're right mate. I kept klicking on the drawing until I could distinguish the big end bolt below.

Thanks you guys, i was beginning to doubt myself! - here am I, a layman (in motorcycle terms), trying to sound knowledgeable about things motorcycle! -I was quite passionate about the stuff from my younger days though and this discussion is making things I had forgotten come back again.
:scratch:

Oh yes, and note that big spine on the Moto Guzzi V8 frame !

........and it had a 'complete' cylinder block (no head) as in the Offenhauser? speedway car engine, - the cylinder sleeves were screwed in, (notches on the skirt for spanners I think), threads were at the top ends only, sealing on a taper on the lip at the top of the sleeve.
I'm told they experimented with different cranks too, using either single plane or two plane, giving quite different beats as well.
The Guzzi may have had a few other problems, but never a blown head gasket!

[WilDun]

Apologies to Husa etc. if he has covered this before.
This engine (Wooler) which at one stage was run in the Brough Superior is a real "oddball" type of engine and it actually worked!
The pistons it seems all moved in unison! (must have been some clever balancing forces involved there!). - at least in one of his creations that was the case, I haven't really studied this one as yet,

315467315468

[J.A.W.]

Check out the 'knife & fork' conrod arrangement of this Daimler-Benz V12.. www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/DB-601A-Flight-7Nov40.pdf
The split roller big end bearings shown - were replaced by plain bearings on later production versions, & this caused some issues..

[J.A.W.]

This German outfit also has a long history in building robust rolling element bearing crankshafts..
www.hirth-engines.de/index.php/en/2-stroke-logic

[husaberg]

Blair came to Christchurch NZ on what was probably the same trip. Guest of the Engine Reconditioners Assn and spoke at their conference. The Britten boys and me were the only bike people there. Yes, he was heavily into the 4t computer simulation at that time, showed us several simulated dyno runs which came at the end of of a design stage entirely on computer....He'd just finished an engine design for Nissan, the cylinder heads had gone through three versions, none of which had actually been made, all virtual, very impressive stuff.
He got talking about combustion chamber shape and burning problems so i asked the obvious question...5 valves, given the ignition curves needed, worth the effort ? he said his mates at Toyota/Yamaha wouldn't like it, but no, not worth it...And where did i work ? For a yamaha agency...much laughter...

Split roller bearings....shit, I remember McCulloch big ends....Couple of years back i was shown a crank for a 1927 Delage GP car here. Straight 8, 1.5L about a meter long...one piece with split roller big ends. That sort of thing was common in pre war GP cars. Cost was not a consideration. The MV and the Guzzi simply carried on what was seen as best practise at the time.

Was that before or after Britten tried the 5 valve heads as well.

TKRJ still sell the split bearings.
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[WilDun]

This German outfit also has a long history in building robust rolling element bearing crankshafts..

A very interesting article on the DB inverted V!

The Hirth two stroke is interesting too - "FLETTNER" in the other thread (bucket foundry) is working on what could quite possibly become a worthy competitor - it is a 750cc parallel twin two stroke, already working in other areas, (trying many other experimental projects as well).

[J.A.W.]

Is he using a staggered crank pin on the twin, to use the inertia torque, or is he gonna let it shake..

Hirth do a lovely compact 1 litre 2T triple, softly tuned at 100hp, & warranty the crank as good for a 1000hr TBO at 70% continous..
..it 'd make a great project bike mill..

[husaberg]

A very interesting article on the DB inverted V!

The Hirth two stroke is interesting too - "FLETTNER" in the other thread (bucket foundry) is working on what could quite possibly become a worthy competitor - it is a 750cc parallel twin two stroke, already working in other areas, (trying many other experimental projects as well).

He has a triple as well Will.

[WilDun]

Is he using a staggered crank pin on the twin, to use the inertia torque, or is he gonna let it shake..

Hirth do a lovely compact 1 litre 2T triple, softly tuned at 100hp, & warranty the crank as good for a 1000hr TBO at 70% continous..
..it 'd make a great project bike mill..

It doesn't shake at all, he has designed very effective balance shafts into it also an integral reduction box (for aircraft) and I think he's toying with the idea of a bike - however I think I should let him do the comments - he may choose to this when he looks in here now and then. - I don't want to say the wrong things and I don't know enough to comment any more really!

Yes Husa, he has a triple as well but that seems to be on the backburner.

[husaberg]

Yes Husa, he has a triple as well but that seems to be on the backburner.

He has many irons in the fire.
The triple is pretty much exactly the same as the twin with an extra pot



Yep, I said it and Jan may have said it too.

They were sand castings, pretty much identical to their racing engines. In fact the whole construction was, except that after the first version the racers got a chain transmission while the street version kept the original cardan shaft.
The crankshaft was bolted with saddles to the underside of the cylinder block that doubled as a lid on the big empty space of the crankcase. The gearbox was fitted from the side.
I tested the MV 750 S America-version in 1976 or so, together with the then-new Suzuki GS750 four-cylinder four-stroke. The Suzuki was at least twice as good in all respects and it cost half the price of the MV.

The works Benelli was a side loader as well.
With it seems a similar crank location they had some clever fly wheels.I think they were able to side load the entire crank assembly girdle by popping the sump and removable side plates
They actually by co-incidence borrowed a 250 Honda Multi at the time they did the four valve heads.

I always thought one of the cleverest things with the Britten was how they could change the crank or rods or pistons or gearbox by poping the bike on is back wheel and simply removing the sump.
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[J.A.W.]

It doesn't shake at all, he has designed very effective balance shafts

"Shafts".. plural? Oh dear.. seriously though, no doubt he's put a bit of thought into it.. (albeit Manolis would not approve of such paliatives..)

Have a squiz at the Olds synchronous/synergistic 2T triple design ( scroll down the linked page - below, to find it)

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2014/01/09/ransom-eli-olds-and-the-supercharged-two-stroke-diesel/

There was an earlier Roberts 2T mill that ran a rotating scavenge scroll/transfer drum arrangement that used the 120`sequential blow-down, AFAIR, too.

[WilDun]

"Shafts".. plural? Oh dear.. seriously though, no doubt he's put a bit of thought into it.. (Manolis would not approve..)


Don't quote me on that! - all I know is that the arrangement he uses is very successful - and yes , he doesn't only put a lot of thought into everything, he actually gets off his ass and does it, making most of us look silly!

[J.A.W.]

For sure..

This beasty triple could likely do with rocking couple - nullification bobs - incorporated into the PTO/jackshaft..

http://www.4x4tuff.com/ctsme8.html

[Grumph]

Was that before or after Britten tried the 5 valve heads as well.

After - John was not long dead at that point so i had the Britten boys on that they were in the business of building replicas for sale as there was a known ban on further development....
When John first showed off a 5 valve head, it was at a film night at Budget where he talked about his Daytona trip. He passed the incomplete 5 valve head around for comment. Afterward he approached me for comment so after i'd admired Rob Selby's machining skills, I asked if he had any idea of the advance curve required. I then told him to go to Tommy's yamaha and look on the fische where he could see for himself it was going to be a hard one to copy using a chainsaw magneto....AFAIK no one from the team ever bothered to look at how yamaha had done it....

I asked a couple of the riders who'd ridden the 5 valve engine and they both said it was flat in the middle compared to the 4V - and not noticeably better up top.

[husaberg]

After - John was not long dead at that point so i had the Britten boys on that they were in the business of building replicas for sale as there was a known ban on further development....
When John first showed off a 5 valve head, it was at a film night at Budget where he talked about his Daytona trip. He passed the incomplete 5 valve head around for comment. Afterward he approached me for comment so after i'd admired Rob Selby's machining skills, I asked if he had any idea of the advance curve required. I then told him to go to Tommy's yamaha and look on the fische where he could see for himself it was going to be a hard one to copy using a chainsaw magneto....AFAIK no one from the team ever bothered to look at how yamaha had done it....

I asked a couple of the riders who'd ridden the 5 valve engine and they both said it was flat in the middle compared to the 4V - and not noticeably better up top.

I have to fess up I actually passed on to John all the Cameron stuff he had initially wrote about it and the seven valve as well.
Cameron was particularly glowing of it (initially) but that was with a low comp. Once you raise the comp in those 5v it gets real silly really fast. (or slow as it turns out)
you can't have a decent comp or decent combustion its one or the other.
I never actually seen how they did the valve gear for it but guess they copied the Yam set up as well did they.
Anyway it goes to show just how clever Keith Duckworth was getting it right bang on in the first place.

[J.A.W.]

F1 is currently specfically rules limited to 4 poppet valves.. so there may be something.. in it..

Does Yamaha still use the 5-valve set-up - on their larger cylinder machines?

They did offer (valve clearance check-wise) - a fairly long service interval - on the old FZ's..

[husaberg]

F1 is specfically rules limited to 4 valves..

Does Yamaha still use the 5-valve set-up - on their larger cylinder machines?

They did offer (valve clearance check-wise) - a fairly long service interval - on the old FZ's

They gave up on it for real stuff a few years ago, they held onto it longer than they should have, corporate pride I think

[J.A.W.]

They gave up on it for real stuff a few years ago, they held onto it longer than they should have, corporate pride I think

Real stuff?

You mean for the flagship M1/R1.. as a racebike..

But for regular workaday stuff like adventure bikes, have they dropped it there - too?

[husaberg]

Real stuff?

You mean for the flagship M1/R1.. as a racebike..

But for regular workaday stuff like adventure bikes, have they dropped it there - too?

Not sure with all the stuff but the sporting stuff yes they all went 4V.
There might be some model runs still going i'm not really a Yam Guy.
the yzf450 lost them when it went back to front from memory.

[J.A.W.]

Not sure with all the stuff but the sporting stuff yes they all went 4V.
There might be some model runs still going i'm not really a Yam Guy.

Apart from the big FZR-to-R7/1 lines - what other "sporting stuff" used the 5 valves?
Anything smaller cyl-wise - than the FZ 750/4?
Don't think the 600/4s - ever did..

[husaberg]

Apart from the big FZR-to-R7/1 lines - what other "sporting stuff" used the 5 valves?
Anything smaller cyl-wise - than the FZ 750/4?
Don't think the 600/4s - ever did..

FZR750 1000 and early R1
The TRX850 TDM series
The XTZ series
the YZF's
Off the top of my head but as I said I am no Yamaha guy

[J.A.W.]

Off the top of my head but as I said I am no Yamaha guy

Well, I s'pose yours aint a 5 valve head either, then.. l.o.l...

Ferrari used them too, dunno if they still do..

[husaberg]

Well, I s'pose yours aint a 5 valve head either, then.. l.o.l...

Ferrari used them too, dunno if they still do..
Clever timing with the pun about heads.
The later 4AGE Toyotas (I think you had them in Aussie in the sprinters) did to, a bit more affordable and easier to park to boot.

[J.A.W.]

Clever timing with the pun about heads.
The later 4AGE Toyotas (I think you had them in Aussie in the sprinters) did to, a bit more affordable and easier to park to boot.

Dunno about that.. a Fazza can bloody park anywhere.. like magic..

Funny story.. the other day, I heard what I took to be.. a raucous, huckery ol' Z1 with an open 4-into-1.. coming down the street..

It turned out to be a late model rag-top Ferrari V8 with the flat-plane crank & exhaust flapper.. loud as.. dunno how they pass rego..

[husaberg]

Dunno about that.. a Fazza can bloody park anywhere.. like magic..

Funny story.. the other day, I heard what I took to be.. a raucous, huckery ol' Z1 with an open 4-into-1.. coming down the street..

It turned out to be a late model rag-top Ferrari V8 with the flat-plane crank & exhaust flapper.. loud as.. dunno how they pass rego..

it has a flapper and they don't rev their nuts off for the noise test...........

[J.A.W.]

it has a flapper and they don't rev their nuts off for the noise test...........

It would - if I was bloody testing it..