Oddball engines and prototypes

[WilDun]

Today, a great pall of black smoke combined with high pitched screams (70,000 rpm or more) were seen and heard over the industrial suburbs of Perth in Australia and simultaneously over the green fields of New Zealand's Waikato. (Said to come from top secret experiments with HCCI and a new type of throttle).
Could these incidents possibly be connected? - no doubt we will find out soon.

NB: we have been assured by the experts that it is very unlikely to have been caused by a two stroke engine.

UPDATE: There are also unconfirmed reports of links to the Netherlands.

[Mental Trousers]

I know it's not HD technology (really meaning the colour of the saddlebags), or anything ever so refined, but this one makes VW's Dieselgate look pretty mild really.<_<

Pretty sure that all these were 4 strokes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmIfjmvXp0I

Good reason to carry a CO2 fire extinguisher - empty it into the intake and smother the damn thing.

[guyhockley]

Something like that happened to my brother-in-law's truck and as far as we could work out it was running on the contents of the sump sucked through a bad turbo seal.

[Ocean1]

Something like that happened to my brother-in-law's truck and as far as we could work out it was running on the contents of the sump sucked through a bad turbo seal.

Most of the 2T Detroit diesels I worked on had spring loaded flaps poised over the blower intake. Knob in the cab pulls the pin. Was maybe 2-3mm thick plate, and I once had occasion to use one on a 671 on a dyno. It came out later looking like an ashtray.

[ken seeber]

Today, a great pall of black smoke combined with high pitched screams (70,000 rpm or more) were seen and heard over the industrial suburbs of Perth in Australia and simultaneously over the green fields of New Zealand's Waikato. (Said to come from top secret experiments with HCCI and a new type of throttle).
Could these incidents possibly be connected? - no doubt we will find out soon.

NB: we have been assured by the experts that it is very unlikely to have been caused by a two stroke engine.

UPDATE: There are also unconfirmed reports of links to the Netherlands.

Problem is Willy that the crankshafts and 70 mm con rods keep breaking, however the STRIKE Ozzie made piston has survived through all the testing to date:rolleyes:

[guyhockley]

Most of the 2T Detroit diesels I worked on had spring loaded flaps poised over the blower intake. Knob in the cab pulls the pin. Was maybe 2-3mm thick plate, and I once had occasion to use one on a 671 on a dyno. It came out later looking like an ashtray.
I once had the engine in my van (2.1l turbo diesel) ticking over with no air cleaner on and made the mistake of leaning over the intake...

[WilDun]

Problem is Willy that the crankshafts and 70 mm con rods keep breaking, however the STRIKE Ozzie made piston has survived through all the testing to date:rolleyes:

Looks like you'll have to buy in some cheap Chinese pistons to fail first and hopefully cure that problem then! :laugh:



BTW, why are the rods and cranks breaking? I would assume that you are using standard competition kart engine parts.

[guyhockley]

Turning 4 into 2

[ken seeber]

BTW, why are the rods and cranks breaking? I would assume that you are using standard competition kart engine parts.

Willy, nothing has broken yet, just drawing a possible association to the dimension of the Ryger bottom end and how it handles, or ever handled, 30,000 rpm.:gob:

Guy, good article.

[WilDun]

Willy, nothing has broken yet, just drawing a possible association to the dimension of the Ryger bottom end and how it handles, or ever handled, 30,000 rpm.:gob:

Guy, good article.

Ken,
I guess there must be some way of making engines produce much better power and torque without the crazy RPM now seemingly required to obtain higher horsepower. - Just like the sixties when the major manufacturers obtained high power outputs by increasing the revs to obscene levels (by the standards of the day) and sacrificing torque to the extent that they were even trying 14 speed gearboxes!
Then the (sensible in my opinion) rule makers restricted gearboxes to 6 speed and reduced the number of cylinders allowed, this actually forced research toward increasing the torque instead - and it worked!
But now the trend is toward revisiting the folly of the sixties, ie obtaining horsepower by increasing the revs.

Yes Guy,
I hadn't ever heard of that one, a great effort! - he didn't need to use revs to make that a good machine!

BTW, I did say a few pages back that Dovisioso was a very intelligent rider - the last Moto GP (Austrian) proved that! and Marquez has been reinstated to my list of good riders (was out of favour for his antics against Rossi etc.).

[ken seeber]

Getting a bit quiet here. Have a look at this for some impressive numbers:

http://newatlas.com/indian-motorcycle-market-turmoil-triumph-bajaj/50859/

Tons of YouTubes on how they're made

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4AuIFqneUU

[WilDun]

That's a pretty amazing story! I had 3 Royal Enfields, I started off with an ex army RE1 two stroke (one of the actual wartime models which were dropped in to the troops in Europe by parachute and I'm pretty sure our Dutch friends were quite familiar with those! Then a 350cc model G and finally a 500cc Bullet.
Yes they are like the Harleys but sold in India in much greater numbers - it does prove though that hi tech isn't always the best way to go! - I mean, if we all raced something like a 350 bullet we would still have a helluva lot of fun!
What impressed me more than anything in that factory was the guy painting the stripes on the petrol tanks with a brush! - that is skill!

[guyhockley]

I mean, if we all raced something like a 350 bullet we would still have a helluva lot of fun!
Already doing it in the UK.

[guyhockley]

Not forgetting the Linsdells...
https://royalenfield.com/uk/goodwoodrevival/blog/racing-heroes-steve-linsdell
Ollie Linsdell has been invited into the "thoroughbred" class where he regularly embarrasses Manxes and G50s.

[WilDun]

...................Ollie Linsdell has been invited into the "thoroughbred" class where he regularly embarrasses Manxes and G50s.

Of course there is the rider to take into consideration, ie whether he is prepared to risk his 'pride and joy' and only out for the enjoyment, or is out there totally dedicated to winning!

Must say that I am pleased to see the Royal Enfield enjoying such a resurgence in popularity - in my day, I was more or less alone in my love of that brand, and to be honest it was probably only marketing which made the difference, because each make of machine had good and bad points and again to be honest, there wasn't a helluva lot to choose between them.
I remember a guy who campaigned on a 250 model (not the super GT ....or whatever) - he cut a hole in the bottom of the crankcase and covered it with a bolted on plate in order to facilitate changing the big end bearing (from an Austin A40 Farina) between races - from memory, he didn't even have to take the engine out!

[pete376403]

The first bike I had (all of 1 week) was a 250 RE. I had it hidden in the shed hoping to get it going. My mother found it and made me take it back.
Had a thing for RE ever since. Would be happy with a nice Mk II Interceptor.

[WilDun]

Would be happy with a nice Mk II Interceptor.

Yes, a very impressive looking machine!

I was 16, living on a farm and I successfully hid my 125 and 350 in an old barn across the road - was totally hooked and riding them before my parents found out ...... there was no stopping me after that!

[guyhockley]

Of course there is the rider to take into consideration, ie whether he is prepared to risk his 'pride and joy' and only out for the enjoyment, or is out there totally dedicated to winning!
Think it's a combination of very good rider on a very good machine in this case!


I remember a guy who campaigned on a 250 model (not the super GT ....or whatever) - he cut a hole in the bottom of the crankcase and covered it with a bolted on plate in order to facilitate changing the big end bearing (from an Austin A40 Farina) between races - from memory, he didn't even have to take the engine out!
I was confused by this as I remember rebuilding a roller bearing crank for a RE250 but googling tells me it was probably a Clipper I worked on and the Crusaders and Continentals had shells. Bet the Linsdell racer doesn't still have the original floating bush big end, though!

[WilDun]

Think it's a combination of very good rider on a very good machine in this case!


I was confused by this as I remember rebuilding a roller bearing crank for a RE250 but googling tells me it was probably a Clipper I worked on and the Crusaders and Continentals had shells. Bet the Linsdell racer doesn't still have the original floating bush big end, though!

Yes I think it may have been a Clipper and it seems he got a bit tired of removing the engine and splitting the crank to replace the roller big end.
I don't think the later Crusader and Continental GT would have used white metal coated "bushes" (instead of rollers) - as in the much earlier Model G which had a bush and maybe the Bullet as well, this was probably a cheaper innovation to replace the more expensive rollers, but still using the original crank and rod!
Possibly the later 250's had moved on to a one piece crank and removable split shells, I dunno, I never saw one apart. - That was getting well into the Japanese era and they were also using roller big ends.

[husaberg]

Yes I think it may have been a Clipper and it seems he got a bit tired of removing the engine and splitting the crank to replace the roller big end.
I don't think the later Crusader and Continental GT would have used white metal coated "bushes" (instead of rollers) - as in the much earlier Model G which had a bush and maybe the Bullet as well, this was probably a cheaper innovation to replace the more expensive rollers, but still using the original crank and rod!
Possibly the later 250's had moved on to a one piece crank and removable split shells, I dunno, I never saw one apart. - That was getting well into the Japanese era and they were also using roller big ends.

The white metal floating bush big end was because one piece cadges in plated aluminium were not available at the time to RE.
Whist the then available rivoted steel cadges broke up do to the cyclic variation of the big end accelerating and declerating.

[WilDun]

The white metal floating bush big end was because one piece cadges in plated aluminium were not available at the time to RE.
Whist the then available rivoted steel cadges broke up do to the cyclic variation of the big end accelerating and declerating.

That is probably true, but all the others like Matchless etc etc seemed to manage ok with rollers and Ariel actually used crowded (and two row) short rollers in the two stroke twin Arrow!(dunno if that was a wise move)
I seem to remember that one of the British model aircraft engines used "floating" wedge like segments between the rollers in their crankshaft mains which were not connected to each other (can't remember which company - it'll come to me)... Taplin maybe.

[husaberg]

That is probably true, but all the others like Matchless etc etc seemed to manage ok with rollers and Ariel actually used crowded (and two row) short rollers in the two stroke twin Arrow!(dunno if that was a wise move)
I seem to remember that one of the British model aircraft engines used "floating" wedge like segments between the rollers in their crankshaft mains which were not connected to each other (can't remember which company - it'll come to me)... Taplin maybe.

Remember early triumph twins had no big end bearings at all they relied on the Aluminium alloy conecting rod as the bearing surface.
Royal Enfield might have been saving money or more likely were not allowed to use a bearing manufactured outside their own group of companies. Likely both.

[Grumph]

The white metal floating bush big end was because one piece cadges in plated aluminium were not available at the time to RE.
Whist the then available rivoted steel cadges broke up do to the cyclic variation of the big end accelerating and declerating.

Where did you get that from ? RE certainly had alloy roller cages available - as did all the UK manufacturers. Never seen a plated one....
One piece steel bigend cages again were readily available. Riveted cages are used in main bearings, never seen one in a bigend.

RE simply went their own way with the floating bush bigend. It had first been used in cars in the 20's and still had a following even though it had already been proved inadequate due to inherent oiling issues. Chap called Henri used it in several Grand Prix car designs - all of which were rpm limited due to the bush...

It did see a revival in modern times - it's surprisingly suitable for the center bearing in a turbocharger.

[Grumph]

Remember early triumph twins had no big end bearings at all they relied on the Aluminium alloy conecting rod as the bearing surface.

Right alloy and plenty of oil, no problems. Millions of stationary engines and air compressors doing just that without even pressure oiling....

[husaberg]

Where did you get that from ? RE certainly had alloy roller cages available - as did all the UK manufacturers. Never seen a plated one....
One piece steel bigend cages again were readily available. Riveted cages are used in main bearings, never seen one in a bigend.

RE simply went their own way with the floating bush bigend. It had first been used in cars in the 20's and still had a following even though it had already been proved inadequate due to inherent oiling issues. Chap called Henri used it in several Grand Prix car designs - all of which were rpm limited due to the bush...

It did see a revival in modern times - it's surprisingly suitable for the center bearing in a turbocharger.

it was in the write up on the Royal enfield i posted the one with the big head bullet.
i will see if i can dig it up but it came from a royal enfield designer from back in the day.
riveted is not my best descrition, A build up cadge is what i meant.
when you think about it RE was in the same family of companies that included alpha bearings as well as albion (later on at least)

332303

[Grumph]

Tony Wilson-Jones who's quoted in that extract should have had his pencils seized and burned. He was responsible for some absolute horrors.
He's also dancing around the truth - postwar I doubt if anyone was using open ended bigend cages. He was trying to justify staying with the bush in the face of better bearings being made on modern machinery. RE's production numbers were pretty low by comparison with the rest of the UK bike manufacturers - all of whom managed to secure alloy cages properly broached from solid. Quite possibly, at that time they couldn't afford the machinery to make proper cages...
RE did some weird things - anyone who's tried to fathom why the twins oil pump setup was done like that will realise thsy were just different...

[guyhockley]

It did see a revival in modern times - it's surprisingly suitable for the center bearing in a turbocharger.

I think the fact that they now have ball bearings that survive turbocharger revs is bloody impressive...

[WilDun]

Tony Wilson-Jones who's quoted in that extract should have had his pencils seized and burned. He was responsible for some absolute horrors.

I haven't heard of him before but I'll take a punt and say he was probably one of the "chaps" who together brought the industry to it's knees post war!


........ all of whom managed to secure alloy cages properly broached from solid. Quite possibly, at that time they couldn't afford the machinery to make proper cages...

Would be interested to know how cages can be broached??? - aren't they milled?



RE did some weird things - anyone who's tried to fathom why the twins oil pump setup was done like that will realise thsy were just different...

I have never seen the twin's oil pump, but I remember the singles had a worm driven plunger type pump (so did a few of the others - AJS etc.)


I think the fact that they now have ball bearings that survive turbocharger revs is bloody impressive...

I bet the aircraft engine industry did most of the research on that.

[Grumph]

Would be interested to know how cages can be broached??? - aren't they milled?
I have never seen the twin's oil pump, but I remember the singles had a worm driven plunger type pump (so did a few of the others - AJS etc.)


AFAIK alloy cages are initially slotted in a mill, yes. That leaves the slots unfinished on the ends so they're finished to length and final width in a vertical broach. Specialised machinery but..

The twins have two separate pumps. On a good day they work at the same time. Having pressure but no scavenge can be lived with for a short period...Having scavenge but no pressure can't. Experience has shown me at least that neither is adequate for the job. Seem to remember that Linsdell revised the pumps on the twin he built.

[guyhockley]

Definitely an oddball...

[Grumph]

That would make a nice rolling chassis for Norm Hayes wooden engine - which I think has already been mentioned here before.

[husaberg]

Tony Wilson-Jones who's quoted in that extract should have had his pencils seized and burned. He was responsible for some absolute horrors.
He's also dancing around the truth - postwar I doubt if anyone was using open ended bigend cages. He was trying to justify staying with the bush in the face of better bearings being made on modern machinery. RE's production numbers were pretty low by comparison with the rest of the UK bike manufacturers - all of whom managed to secure alloy cages properly broached from solid. Quite possibly, at that time they couldn't afford the machinery to make proper cages...
RE did some weird things - anyone who's tried to fathom why the twins oil pump setup was done like that will realise thsy were just different...

The vincent set up was rather odd wasn't it crowded with a spacer or something.
Anyone who read that article i posted on the RE GP5 Herman Meier tried to do will know how f-ed up the old british system was.

https://greasengasoline.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/117162.jpg

[Frits Overmars]

I think the fact that they now have ball bearings that survive turbocharger revs is bloody impressive.
I bet the aircraft engine industry did most of the research on that.If I were a betting man, you'd be on. For example, the aerospace industry had trouble finding suitable bearings for their high-revving gyroscopes until they found what they needed at a Japanese manufacturer of VCR recorders :rolleyes:.

[WilDun]

If I were a betting man, you'd be on. For example, the aerospace industry had trouble finding suitable bearings for their high-revving gyroscopes until they found what they needed at a Japanese manufacturer of VCR recorders :rolleyes:.

Yes, probably you are right - but I was thinking more of turbine engines.
Possibly the best thing a company could do is swallow it's pride and latch on to using well researched similar products provided by companies who cater for the things that make money (ie the things that are sold in the biggest numbers) They can afford the research and are not particular who they sell their stuff to I guess. Companies who choose to ignore that simple fact do so at their own peril!
That is after all how companies like Triumph turned the name into a success again!

On the other hand, the Royal Enfield name survived by everything being sold, lock stock and barrel to India and allowing the mother company to sink into oblivion - when with a little forethought they could have done like Triumph (grew up from the ashes by outsourcing components initially) and instead they could have been selling bikes to India instead of the opposite happening!

Or...... they could have created a cult and got rich on bullshit and a "macho" image by adding frills and ape hangers, they already had the retro technology! (that has all been done successfully before!).:msn-wink:

[WilDun]

Seems I have either made a profound statement ..... or just total bullshit? - either way there seems to be no answer!:laugh:

[Frits Overmars]

Seems I have either made a profound statement ..... or just total bullshit? - either way there seems to be no answer!:laugh:You might also conclude that it was indisputable :msn-wink:.

[WilDun]

You might also conclude that it was indisputable :msn-wink:.

Well, I might and it's very kind of you to say so, but ...... that means that the conversation is closed - and that's not really what forums are about! - especially on this particular thread, an indisputable conclusion is not recommended!

So....... this is the most interesting development I have seen lately, it's actually working and perhaps if combined with HCCI, it could be the biggest change in the internal combustion engine for some time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNVnvptNJqM

[tjbw]

Well, I might and it's very kind of you to say so, but ...... that means that the conversation is closed - and that's not really what forums are about! - especially on this particular thread, an indisputable conclusion is not recommended!

So....... this is the most interesting development I have seen lately, it's actually working and perhaps if combined with HCCI, it could be the biggest change in the internal combustion engine for some time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNVnvptNJqM

Well I like that, even though it looks heavy and expensive.

I've often thought of using something like a rack and pinion, with a piston on each end of the rack, didn't think of variable compression with that concept though.

Something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScB6Wd4r9Jc

Here's more info on mce-5:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/vary-in-paree-french-company-developing-variable-compression-engine/

[WilDun]

Well I like that, even though it looks heavy and expensive............. didn't think of variable compression with that concept though.

A very significant thing about the MCE5 engine is that the piston assembly moves in a straight line - the side thrust (which will always be generated when rotary motion is transformed into linear motion) is taken up by a rack/gear/roller combination, preventing any side thrust on the piston - maybe this could be a step towards an "oilless" system (possibly being considered by some people)?
It's also a very tidy solution to achieving variable compression.

[OopsClunkThud]

wouldn't the pressure angle of the rack/roller still result in side thrust on the piston? Further, the thrust would always be to the same side.

[190mech]

How is the rack and pinion going to look after 250,000 miles???

[WilDun]

wouldn't the pressure angle of the rack/roller still result in side thrust on the piston? Further, the thrust would always be to the same side.

As I see it, sidethrust is contained by the rollers (which are incorporated in the gears) and the roller tracks (incorporated in the racks).


How is the rack and pinion going to look after 250,000 miles???

Who knows? but how is any engine after 250000 miles? that might give us a clue!

[190mech]

250,000 miles is quite common with many more to go!I have a friend with a 1982 Ford Ranger that has 420,000 miles on his engine and still runs well.He's replaced 2 heads due to cracks,but the bottom end is still original!:)

[ken seeber]

Well, it looks like an elegant way to achieve linear motion combined with variable CR, BUT at the costs of:

• A much larger parts count
• Lots of overall and reciprocating weight
• Some really complex tolerance stack ups to achieve minimum clearances of the gears
• Dunno about the life of the gearsets given the high cyclic loads they must see
• I reckon with a very small amount of gear wear, it’d be pretty rattly

This was in 2010 and now nothing commercial I am aware of. Reckon I’d put my money on a smart 2 stroke, the Mazda HCCI or electric first. :msn-wink:

[Frits Overmars]

Well, it looks like an elegant way to achieve linear motion combined with variable CR, BUT at the costs of:
• A much larger parts count
• Lots of overall and reciprocating weight
• Some really complex tolerance stack ups to achieve minimum clearances of the gears
• Dunno about the life of the gearsets given the high cyclic loads they must see
• I reckon with a very small amount of gear wear, it’d be pretty rattly
This was in 2010 and now nothing commercial I am aware of. Reckon I’d put my money on a smart 2 stroke, the Mazda HCCI or electric first. :msn-wink:I'm afraid your definition of elegant differs frome mine, Ken. I'd rather call it the KISS-violation of the month.
And yes, in time we'll al go electric. I was hugely impressed by a Tesla car. But then I'd pass it each time it has to recharge.
So I think we've got some internal combustion time left, until we'll see cheaper mass-produced fuel cells that can be fed with a liquid energy-carrier like methanol.

[ken seeber]

I'm afraid your definition of elegant rather differs frome mine, Ken. I'd rather call it the KISS-violation of the month.
And yes, in time we'll al go electric. I was hugely impressed by a Tesla car. But then I'd pass it each time it has to recharge.
So I think we've got some internal combustion time left, until we'll see cheaper mass-produced fuel cells that can be fed with a liquid energy-carrier like methanol.

Frits, yeah it surely does violate the KISS principle, but I was trying to be generous.
Same as you, there is some time left for the ICE to have some innovation prior to the first big swing. Clearly the first swing will be battery, one only has to look at the global inertia towards this. Whether fuel cells be the next swing, be they liquid fed (as you suggest) or hydrogen fed (can’t see this myself) will be decided by the trade-off of energy density (methanol would win over batteries I think) vs the costs/emissions of production. The latter I would think would favour batteries that can be charged by wind/solar electricity direct whereas methanol production would require a fair degree of processing, whether or not the stuff was derived from agriculture, petroleum or electricity generated.

Sadly though, whatever the next swing might be, it won’t make a noise that we know and love. :cry:

[Frits Overmars]

....batteries that can be charged by wind/solar electricity direct whereas methanol production would require a fair degree of processing...You're right about the processing requirement of methanol. But think a bit further: the required processing time will already be passed at the plant; it won't bother us. And we could refuel at any petrol station; the complete infrastructure is already there.
Battery charging on the other hand will eat into our time each time we need a recharge. And I have yet to see a battery match the energy density of a tankfull of methanol.

[lohring]

Electrics do have a problem with long trips, but in normal use some exceed the range (around 300 miles) of my gasoline car. I very seldom take a longer trip than that and my home is 100 miles from my work. An interesting video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7O05buGLOY) explains why fuel cells aren't being used in place of batteries. The pressure is on and we'll see how the Tesla model 3 does. In the high priced sedan area the Tesla model S is outselling similar IC cars.

Lohring Miller

[Frits Overmars]

Electrics do have a problem with long trips, but in normal use some exceed the range (around 300 miles) of my gasoline car. I very seldom take a longer trip than that and my home is 100 miles from my work. An interesting video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7O05buGLOY) explains why fuel cells aren't being used in place of batteries. The pressure is on and we'll see how the Tesla model 3 does. In the high priced sedan area the Tesla model S is outselling similar IC cars.If I'd never have to travel farther than 100 miles a day, I would gladly go electric. But I need a car that will go four times that far between stops.

That video is a great example of a biased view, hammering on the disadvantages of hydrogen fuel cells. But it's not the fuel cells that are to blame, it's the hydrogen. "Hydrogen is the energy carrier of the future and will probably remain so forever", my own words. That is why I prefer methanol-fed fuel cells. The methanol is first split into H2 and CO2 in a reformer at the cost of some efficiency, but the process is still far more efficient than burning the stuff. And unlike hydrogen, if you fill up your tank with methanol, it will stay full until you start using it. A hydrogen tank will loose 50% of its content in a couple of weeks through diffusion, even if you don't use any of it: the hydrogen molecules are so small that they escape right through the tank walls.

Another nice quote from the video:
"Battery packs don't produce a lot of heat because they're pretty efficient at turning chemical energy into electrical energy.
Fuel cells are less efficient and produce a lot of waste heat, requiring large radiators to keep them cool."

Yeah, right. Not a word about the efficiency of generating electrical energy for charging those batteries.
332499

[WilDun]

Some interesting theories on the future I must say - I believe that electric will win through ..... eventually!

The MCE5 is overcoming sliding friction with its rack and pinion, producing straight line only piston movement without sidethrust and much reduced friction - isn't this what we were all seeking just a few months ago in connection with going "oilless"??

The gears could actually be adjusted to be quiet by having two racks independently movable but both in contact with the same gear and automatically controlled to take up any slack when the force changes to the other side of the lobe. .... and yes, I know .... more parts and not in line with the (PC) K.I.S.S. principle :rolleyes:!

To be honest, I still believe that the future will be electric, whether it's produced by a normal piston engine, free piston engine, gas turbine engine, wind power, water power, solar power, any kind of power station or methanol fuel cell, (I reckon the latter should be the focus here), but this still has a long way to go in it's development.
Electric motors with smart controllers which make them infinitely variable are a much cheaper option than any working or practical truly infinitely variable gearbox (if there is such a thing) that I have ever come across!

However, all this will depend on the world's lunatics with their nuclear bomb playthings! - it's sad to see that all this potential energy is being used to make bombs when it could be used to make power for everyone and all the research could have been put into that (and into what we are discussing here!).

[Ocean1]

"Battery packs don't produce a lot of heat because they're pretty efficient at turning chemical energy into electrical energy.

It's also instructive to ask where those batteries are getting all that clean energy from.

Varies from country to country of course, but given that you can imagine you'd plug your car in when you got home from work, (and then go turn the air conditioning/heat up and put dinner on to cook) it's likely a lot of that clean energy will be supplied by peak demand generation systems. Which is unlikely to quite match the environmentally friendly picture of solar panels and windmills, it'll far more likely be oil and coal.

[WilDun]

It's also instructive to ask where those batteries are getting all that clean energy from.
Varies from country to country ............ Which is unlikely to quite match the environmentally friendly picture of solar panels and windmills, it'll far more likely be oil and coal.

You can bet it will always be the cheapest solution available at the time, not the most sensible one!

[Ocean1]

You can bet it will always be the cheapest solution available at the time, not the most sensible one!

Unless you charge for environmental costs, yes.

I was simply pointing out that the environmentally friendly perception of electric cars isn't necessarily very accurate.

A factor in rather a lot of environmentally driven policy, I have to say.

[WilDun]

Unless you charge for environmental costs, yes.

I was simply pointing out that the environmentally friendly perception of electric cars isn't necessarily very accurate.

A factor in rather a lot of environmentally driven policy, I have to say.

Especially selling (sorry giving away) water to help the poor ailing water sellers!:msn :angry2:

[Ocean1]

Especially selling (sorry giving away) water to help the poor ailing water sellers!:msn :angry2:

No problem with not selling something that falls out of the sky in sometimes seriously inconvenient quantities at all.

Now, wrapping it in oil is another matter.

[WilDun]

No problem with not selling something that falls out of the sky in sometimes seriously inconvenient quantities at all.

Now, wrapping it in oil is another matter.

Ok, lets not give it away, just collect it and turn it into hydrogen and oxygen (using solar power) and all our problems are solved!:yes:

[WilDun]

I think that the future may be electric motors rather than gearboxes, but these (expensive maybe?) infinitely variable gearboxes may also be worth looking at.
Whether or not they actually work as claimed, we will no doubt eventually find out! but like the Ryger engine, they somehow manage to keep us all intrigued just the same!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L3aXvt4CEo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNNr7OOd_aY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVkX3Zm9A4w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6zE__J0YIU

[Pursang]

In case you want to extract the angle.area values from those older engines: don't; it will blurr your view.

Here is a Unusual port layout from an old Bultaco Cylinder (It is stamped M103 which is the code for a 1973 250cc MK6 Pursang).
332687
It is not some dodgy hand-cut liner, its a properly machined one. (But O/S for a 250)
In the ducts are some gouges that look like milling tool over-cuts, these have the same symmetrical errors on both sides.

The lower transfer holes feed into the B port ducts. Probably still providing under piston head ventilation.

This may have been a factory test cylinder (Not Impossible) but Bultaco didn't continue with developing exhaust auxiliaries.
They stuck with big oval exhaust ports for the HP engines, to the end.

Later engines had a boost port fed from an obstruction in the inlet, and finally reed valves.

cheers, Daryl.

[WilDun]

Here is a Unusual port layout from an old Bultaco Cylinder (It is stamped M103 which is the code for a 1973 250cc MK6 Pursang).
It is not some dodgy hand-cut liner, its a properly machined one. (But O/S for a 250)
In the ducts are some gouges that look like milling tool over-cuts, these have the same symmetrical errors on both sides.

The lower transfer holes feed into the B port ducts. Probably still providing under piston head ventilation.

This may have been a factory test cylinder (Not Impossible) but Bultaco didn't continue with developing exhaust auxiliaries.
They stuck with big oval exhaust ports for the HP engines, to the end.

Later engines had a boost port fed from an obstruction in the inlet, and finally reed valves.

cheers, Daryl.
Daryl, I don't think anyone is home!
Is anybody there..... there..... there..... there..... there.....there.....there.....
Yes as I thought, just an empty space! - not even a ghostly Bultaco!

[husaberg]

Pretty sure i have posted this before
the FACECAM

332772

Plus the happy clapper engine

332773332774
332775The fuel/air inlet is at extreme right. The transfer port is visible behind the right piston.
332776332777
The internals of the James engine. The prototype engine had a swept volume of 29.2 in3 (478.5 cc) and a compression ratio of 11:1. The pistons were 2.375 by 2.750 in, at the rectangular section, and had a 2-inch stroke. (measured at the outer radius?) The engine body was of aluminium alloy with a cast-iron cylinder liner. The water jacket was cast integrally with the main block. The connecting rods were of drop-forged H-section steel, the big end having a single-row roller bearing; the small-end bearing were of the needle-roller type.
The pistons were sealed by L-shaped piston "rings" of cast-iron, pressed against the cylinder walls by spring expanders.

[Pursang]

Plus the happy clapper engine

332773332774
332775The fuel/air inlet is at extreme right. The transfer port is visible behind the right piston.
332776332777
The internals of the James engine. The prototype engine had a swept volume of 29.2 in3 (478.5 cc) and a compression ratio of 11:1. The pistons were 2.375 by 2.750 in, at the rectangular section, and had a 2-inch stroke. (measured at the outer radius?) The engine body was of aluminium alloy with a cast-iron cylinder liner. The water jacket was cast integrally with the main block. The connecting rods were of drop-forged H-section steel, the big end having a single-row roller bearing; the small-end bearing were of the needle-roller type.
The pistons were sealed by L-shaped piston "rings" of cast-iron, pressed against the cylinder walls by spring expanders.

Some features I like:
Compact for displacement and should be able to balance well.

My proposed "improvements".

Round pistons in a curved tubular cylinder housing. Regular round rings. (Square, oval & similar have been too 'hard' to make work well & reliably).

Cross-flow. Exhaust on one side, transfers opposite.

But what with life's strange twists & turns, Now FOCUSING on OLD Bultaco's, and their ghosts, almost exclusively.

Cheers, Daryl.

[tjbw]

Some features I like:
Compact for displacement and should be able to balance well.

My proposed "improvements".

Round pistons in a curved tubular cylinder housing. Regular round rings. (Square, oval & similar have been too 'hard' to make work well & reliably).

Cross-flow. Exhaust on one side, transfers opposite.

But what with life's strange twists & turns, Now FOCUSING on OLD Bultaco's, and their ghosts, almost exclusively.

Cheers, Daryl.

I like uniflow, with transfer at one end, and exhaust at the other.

Many have tried to develop toroidal cylinders, there's lots of info about them on internet.

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/toroidalIC/toroidalIC.htm

[guyhockley]

I'm hoping Frits might know a bit more about this one...
The pictures aren't that revealing and I'm guessing most of you don't speak Dutch, so, briefly, he's taken a Folan 1000cc V-twin four stroke and replaced the front cylinder with a KTM 250 top end. That's stuck in a KR1 chassis for testing purposes. There's some simplistic reasoning about power expectations in the article but I don't know of any further news.
Jerry van der Heiden has form in this sort of thing - he was part of the TZ 3 Cylinder team, he made a bunch of KTM V-twin 2 strokes and once built a 6 cylinder outboard using 3 TZ250 blocks, but nowadays he seems to have settled as an XS650 specialist.

[Frits Overmars]

I'm hoping Frits might know a bit more about this one... The pictures aren't that revealing and I'm guessing most of you don't speak Dutch, so, briefly, he's taken a Folan 1000cc V-twin four stroke and replaced the front cylinder with a KTM 250 top end. That's stuck in a KR1 chassis for testing purposes. There's some simplistic reasoning about power expectations in the article but I don't know of any further news. Jerry van der Heiden has form in this sort of thing - he was part of the TZ 3 Cylinder team, he made a bunch of KTM V-twin 2 strokes and once built a 6 cylinder outboard using 3 TZ250 blocks, but nowadays he seems to have settled as an XS650 specialist.Basically, you've already summed up all the relevant facts. Jerry likes to think and tinker out of the box. The above Folan-KTM is just one example. It ran, and then it was shelved; on to the next project. Lately he seems to be concentrating on Yamaha XS650 engines for MX sidecars.
The TZ 350-triple was the most successful enterprise on tarmac. Jerry built it, together with Ferry Brouwer, for Yamaha works rider Takazumi Katayama, who became 350 cc world champion riding the contraption. It had a 50 mm stroke, a TZ250 twincylinder block plus one half of a second twincylinder block. The other half rests in my cabinet at home. The bike was called Sankito (Japanese for triple). It was rather heavy and on twisty circuits Katayama resorted to his twin, but the Sankito was unbeatable wherever there were long straights.
332799

[WilDun]

Some features I like:
Compact for displacement and should be able to balance well.

My proposed "improvements".

Round pistons in a curved tubular cylinder housing. Regular round rings. (Square, oval & similar have been too 'hard' to make work well & reliably).

Cross-flow. Exhaust on one side, transfers opposite.

But what with life's strange twists & turns, Now FOCUSING on OLD Bultaco's, and their ghosts, almost exclusively.

Cheers, Daryl.

I agree with your ideas (can't beat the round pistons and rings) and the inlet and exhaust kept relatively seperated - very compact compared to an opposed piston design like the Junkers Jumo with the inlet at one end and exhaust at the other plus two crank assemblies - but it does still introduce some more complication of course.
It would need some specialised machining facilities for the cylinders, but not too complicated really and of course the rings might need slightly curved faces (not such good sealing maybe?) - again not impossible to sort out,

Simplicity is always the ideal, but there are limits to simplicity and to improve performance beyond this means tacking on more bits and pieces and electronic gadgetry!

That's only how I see it of course and I'm sure there are others who are much more knowledgeable on the subject than I am!

BTW Frits are you still in country "I"?

[Frits Overmars]

I agree with your ideas (can't beat the round pistons and rings) and the inlet and exhaust kept relatively seperated - very compact compared to an opposed piston design like the Junkers Jumo with the inlet at one end and exhaust at the other plus two crank assemblies - but it does still introduce some more complication of course. It would need some specialised machining facilities for the cylinders, but not too complicated really and of course the rings might need slightly curved faces...
BTW Frits are you still in country "I"?No, I'm back in country D, thanks for asking Will. Spent some great time in Italy with my friend Andrea degli Esposti of DEA fame and two German friends who are now trying to learn Italian.
Round pistons and rings are fine, but donut-shaped cylinders are anything but, and you are quite right about the rings needing 3D-curved faces, unless they are very thin, in which case they could wear themselves to the required shape. And they should not be allowed to rotate at all. But for a two-stroke that would not pose an additional complication.
For an opposed-piston engine without the Junkers Jumo-complication of two crankshafts, below left, you might want to take a look at the DKW below right.
Its crankshaft and con rods resemble those of the James clap-hands engine, but the Deek's cylinder is straight(forward). Comparatively KISS, I'd say.
332810 332811

[guyhockley]

Basically, you've already summed up all the relevant facts. Jerry likes to think and thinker out of the box. The above Folan-KTM is just one example. It ran, once, and then it was shelved; on to the next project. Lately he seems to be concentrating on Yamaha XS650 engines for MX sidecars.
Thanks, Frits. Shame he didn't fiddle with it a bit more...

[WilDun]

Round pistons and rings are fine, but donut-shaped cylinders are anything but, and you are quite right about the rings needing 3D-curved faces, unless they are very thin, in which case they could wear themselves to the required shape. And they should not be allowed to rotate at all. But for a two-stroke that would not pose an additional complication.
For an opposed-piston engine without the Junkers Jumo-complication of two crankshafts, below left, you might want to take a look at the DKW below right.
Its crankshaft and con rods resemble those of the James clap-hands engine, but the Deek's cylinder is straight(forward). Comparatively KISS, I'd say.

From the picture, it looks to me that this DKW (which I had never heard of before) has the same layout as the successful opposed piston Commer TS3/4 engines used in medium sized trucks in Britain, this of course was probably a copy? or perhaps even (originally was) a German Sultzer engine, war booty maybe? - I dunno. but it was discussed earlier on in this thread.

Guess this layout makes for a very compact engine despite the fact that it had an external blower instead of using the crankcase as a pump.
I know that it was also very smooth runner, I had an 80 mile trip in one when I was a teenager.
However I don't think that it would be much good for competition, (ie the engine layout, not the truck) those huge rockers would limit revs drastically I reckon.
It seems that one of the big American companies bought out the Rootes Group (including Commer) and canned this engine, so that was the end of that!

[Frits Overmars]

From the picture, it looks to me that this DKW (which I had never heard of before) has the same layout as the successful opposed piston Commer TS3/4 engines used in medium sized trucks in Britain, this of course was probably a copy? or perhaps even (originally was) a German Sultzer engine, war booty maybe?The text plate in the above DKW picture states 1938, which could make it 'available' as a war booty for Commer.
While searching for the Commer, I not only discovered that it was post-WW2; I also found that Sulzer is Swiss, not German ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulzer_ZG9 )
so the Sulzer couldn't have been a war booty.

Some more opposed stuff:
332818 332819
And some more: https://www.google.de/search?newwindow=1&hl=nl&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=644&q=opposed+piston+engines&oq=opposed+piston+engines&gs_l=img.3..35i39k1j0i5i30i19k1.998.4910.0.7553.23 .23.0.0.0.0.613.3393.0j19j5-2.21.0....0...1.1.64.img..2.21.3379.0..0j0i10k1j0i 30k1j0i19k1j0i30i19k1j0i8i30i19k1.0.pNAAugLz4ns

[WilDun]

The text plate in the above DKW picture states 1938, which could make it 'available' as a war booty for Commer.
While searching for the Commer, I not only discovered that it was post-WW2; I also found that Sulzer is Swiss, not German ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulzer_ZG9 )
so the Sulzer couldn't have been a war booty.


The text plate in the above DKW picture states 1938, which could make it 'available' as a war booty for Commer.
While searching for the Commer, I not only discovered that it was post-WW2; I also found that Sulzer is Swiss, not German ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulzer_ZG9 )
so the Sulzer couldn't have been a war booty.

I always had thought that Sultzer was German (probably because most Swiss people I knew spoke French)!
This layout I believe was being eyed by a lot of people in various countries but the Brits managed to get it successfully into production (then scuppered by the Americans) who were getting out of two strokes, this I feel was a big blow to the two stroke cause!
In Britain Napier developed the Junkers Jumo further (they already built them under licence pre war) into the Deltic, which (to me) was a horrible looking thing, but it was used very successfully for many years, mainly in Locomotives.
332824

Talking about horrible looking things, how about this one which is being hailed as a "great breakthrough", my feeling is that it won't be successful as the Napier Deltic!
332823

[ken seeber]

Will, I remember the Commer TS3, for some reason over here called the "knocker". It had a really good exhaust sound though.

As to any toroidal arrangement, then I personally don't think they're viable, just for the mfg. perspective. As to the "square "clappers", then I also give them a fail, for the reason of trying to seal square corners. Working at Orbital on the original Orbital orbiting engine, apart from the fundamentally lousy combustion chamber shape, was the "cylinder sealing", reflected in huge amounts of blowby.

Dunno about you, but I reckon that the only ICE engine format (2 or 4 stroke) will be the current conventional format PRIOR to the electric drive era.

[tjbw]

...

Talking about horrible looking things, how about this one which is being hailed as a "great breakthrough", my feeling is that it won't be successful as the Napier Deltic!
332823

I get "invalid attachment"?

Do you have another link to the breakthrough?

[Frits Overmars]

Will, I remember the Commer TS3, for some reason over here called the "knocker". It had a really good exhaust sound though.Poppet exhaust valves have an initial opening speed of zero, so they don't stand a chance of generating a powerful exhaust pulse, compared to an exhaust port that's being opened by a piston moving about 50% faster than mean piston speed. You could say that such a port opens with a bang :msn-wink:.
That's the reason I love the sound of a Wankel, even though it's a four-stroke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jAngoCbOMg#t=0m8s


Dunno about you, but I reckon that the only ICE engine format (2 or 4 stroke) will be the current conventional format PRIOR to the electric drive era.Same here. Though we may see free-piston engines (with cylindrical pistons) combined with linear generators, until batteries or fuel cells have matured.


I get "invalid attachment"?Same here again.

[WilDun]

Will, I remember the Commer TS3, for some reason over here called the "knocker". It had a really good exhaust sound though.

As to any toroidal arrangement, then I personally don't think they're viable, just for the mfg. perspective. As to the "square "clappers", then I also give them a fail, for the reason of trying to seal square corners.
I reckon that the only ICE engine format (2 or 4 stroke) will be the current conventional format PRIOR to the electric drive era.

Yes Ken, I would tend to agree with you on these matters and I am glad your last sentence was included - Being positive (as trendy people actually seem to believe these days) is not about pretending that something is not happening, positive to me is addressing the problem and either dealing with it or facing the inevitable and moving on - however, swimming against the current can be a helluva lot of fun, so let's deal with anything trying to kill the two stroke! :laugh:

tjbw
Sorry I've been away for a few days - I'll sort out the pic somehow so you can see the engine I was meaning - but here's a link instead, to save any trouble!
https://thekneeslider.com/ecomotors-opoc-two-stroke-engines-opposed-piston-opposed-cylinder/

Frits,
I think the free piston engine/generator looks very promising ( at least till they get small turbine engines sorted) but why is development taking so long for the free piston ??- got to be a reason!

[WilDun]

This is the offending picture (OPOC)
332860

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, I think the free piston engine/generator looks very promising ( at least till they get small turbine engines sorted) but why is development taking so long for the free piston ?I dunno. Free piston engines have been around forever, mainly as gas generators for turbines. Notably the French have been concentrating on them.
Maybe the need for on-board electricity generators has not yet become urgent enough.


This is the offending picture (OPOC)
332860I like your wording Will. How do you make a two-stroke engine more complicated than a four-stroke? The OPOC answers all your questions.
By the way, it's not a free piston engine, with all those con rods.
Initially, one Bill Gates financed the OPOC, proving that he knows more about computers than about engines, but then he must have seen the light through his windows and withdrew from the project. The Ecomotor company seems to be carrying on, describing their efforts in the hot-air style that appears to be normal in the USA but that never fails to irritate me. Well, at least they manage to generate hot air without free pistons.

[lohring]

A model boat racing friend of mine once worked for the predecessor of Eco Motors. He was excited about the possibility of a small version with a piston compressor on the base of the outboard pistons. See the pictures. I don't think they got the reed valves to work , though. I always liked the electrically boosted turbocharger they developed. That looks like the answer to the bigger two stroke engines with isolated crankcases. It should be a lot better than roots blowers.

Lohring Miller

[WilDun]

A model boat racing friend of mine once worked for the predecessor of Eco Motors. He was excited about the possibility of a small version with a piston compressor on the base of the outboard pistons. See the pictures. I don't think they got the reed valves to work , though. I always liked the electrically boosted turbocharger they developed. That looks like the answer to the bigger two stroke engines with isolated crankcases. It should be a lot better than roots blowers.

Lohring Miller

Lohring, I have been toying with my own ideas on the elusive "perfect two stroke engine" and there is one quite similar idea in that engine (which I had firmly believed was my own).
I'm not interested in using that whole layout though (don't like it at all), just one of its features.
Is it a case of "great minds think alike" or "fools seldom differ" ? :laugh:

[husaberg]

Lohring, I have been toying with my own ideas on the elusive "perfect two stroke engine" and there is one quite similar idea in that engine (which I had firmly believed was my own).
I'm not interested in using that whole layout though (don't like it at all), just one of its features.
Is it a case of "great minds think alike" or "fools seldom differ" ? :laugh:
1978 Motobecane 99Z.
332887332888332889

[WilDun]

[QUOTE=husaberg;1131066626]1978 Motobecane 99Z.

That one, also another one ( I think from Montesa), which had the piston pump stuck out the front (90deg to the cylinder).
But, I was looking at and would be very interested in straight line operation of a piston rod (this was discussed to death a while ago) - I would never think of going oilless though!

[Frits Overmars]

I was looking at and would be very interested in straight line operation of a piston rod (this was discussed to death a while ago)The discussion probably stopped because Flettner came to a decision and started putting his ideas in metal. Just wait and see.

[WilDun]

The discussion probably stopped because Flettner came to a decision and started putting his ideas in metal. Just wait and see.

Yes true, he sure is a "doer" and puts most of us to shame - I know he is keen to get his geared scheme in operation and I'd say he has some other stuff brewing, eg. the aircraft engine, all at much later stages which keep him busy (not forgetting his everyday "bread & butter" stuff as well).
However, (in defence of myself :rolleyes:) where would forums be without discussing stuff, coming up with crazy ideas and maybe having the odd laugh?

[ken seeber]

Nothing new, but interesting that this has seemingly gotten into production:

http://newatlas.com/yanmar-dtorque-111-turbo-diesel-50hp-outboard/51675/

I say not new, because I'm sure Lanchester did it well before Willy & I were even a twinkle in our parent's eyes. :msn-wink:

[Niels Abildgaard]

Nothing new, but interesting that this has seemingly gotten into production:

http://newatlas.com/yanmar-dtorque-111-turbo-diesel-50hp-outboard/51675/

I say not new, because I'm sure Lanchester did it well before Willy & I were even a twinkle in our parent's eyes. :msn-wink:

GM tried the scheme in an opposed piston two stroke diesel more than 25 yers ago.
Like all two strokes, pollution was a problem.
Noise also by the way and lousy scavenging.Each piston had a stroke around half the diameter.

[WilDun]

Nothing new, but interesting that this has seemingly gotten into production:

Well, I wouldn't be paying heaps just to end up with a more complicated and expensive piece of machinery, especially in the motorcycle version where they appear to have a fascination with doubling up on components (even the front forks).

Interesting that in some of the various other animations of that engine, the direction of rotation is different - on one, the power stroke goes on the "slow side" (so to speak) and the other rotates the opposite way with the power stroke on the "fast side" - can't figure that one out!
Check it out anyway:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL0QyScysQk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzl-GDAhto
Quite frankly I think neither is the optimum way of doing it! - but then, what the hell do I know!


I say not new, because I'm sure Lanchester did it well before Willy & I were even a twinkle in our parent's eyes. :

Yes Ken, that was a bloody long time ago! I arrived before the bomb went off, I think you arrived in the aftermath.

As for Dr Lanchester, maybe he should just have stuck to gearboxes! - but, in saying that, he did a lot of good work on balance shafts and I'm sure Flettner would agree with that!

[WilDun]

Another pregnant pause!(12 days) - but I'm still hoping for a comment on the direction of rotation on that Neander engine!
Direction of rotation on this thing would surely be of great significance - has it really got into production?

[tjbw]

Here's same video with English audio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDANivoB4KE&t=6s this one has the better rotation direction ;)

I'd prefer conventional single crank with balance shaft.

[Frits Overmars]

Here's same video with English audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDANivoB4KE&t=6s Maybe it's my twisted mind, but I was struck by the humour in a video showing an engine with two crankshafts per piston, starting with the words:
"What if there existed a way to make a diesel that was smoother, lighter or more compact?" :killingme

[WilDun]

Here's same video with English audio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDANivoB4KE&t=6s this one has the better rotation direction ;)

I'd prefer conventional single crank with balance shaft.

This is what I was getting at, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL0QyScysQk (someone in their advertising company may have done this one by mistake).
I can't see any reason how this direction of rotation would work well, it would put huge angular forces on the conrod (on the power stroke) - anyway, I can't see a costly design like that ever working out and I agree that the single crank would be best.

Don't think the good old inline four will ever be dislodged!


Maybe it's my twisted mind, but I was struck by the humour in a video showing an engine with two crankshafts per piston, starting with the words:
"What if there existed a way to make a diesel that was smoother, lighter or more compact?" :killingme

Or maybe it's one of those trick videos designed for April 1, to make us feel silly when we realize that we got taken in!

[tjbw]

Yes Will, I know what you are getting at, and I agree, that's why I said the video with English audio has the better direction of rotation :)

I always felt that a desaxe cylinder could be beneficial, but Neander has a very big desaxe offset. I wonder if anyone has researched the optimum offset.

[WilDun]

Yes Will, I know what you are getting at, and I aggree, that's why I said the video with English audio has the better direction of rotation :)

I always felt that a desaxe cylinder could be beneficial, but Neander has a very big desaxe offset. I wonder if anyone has researched the optimum offset.

Yes, the "desaxe" effect of that thing certainly is pretty excessive and I'm sure nowhere near the optimum! (either way)!

Not sure if this is the place to ask, but I have a car engine/transmission question and maybe someone here can advise me ..... sorry to get away from bikes.

My wife is looking at a new Suzuki Swift and I found the top model now has a 1 Litre three cylinder turbo with direct injection (petrol)!
Of course, me (being me) and a bit suspicious of turbos had a drive in it just to confirm that it was shit - what a surprise! - It went like I couldn't believe! HEAPS of torque and it just kept on pulling! - but ...... is it likely to keep on doing that for the next 5 years or so?
I was just thinking that it's still a small highly stressed engine!

Alternative is a 1200cc (1240 actually) version, naturally aspirated and fine really, however with a CVT transmission as opposed to a 6 speed "normal" automatic in the turbo model (so I'm not too sure about turbos or CVT transmissions, even though our 2009 Nissan has CVT).

Also surprisingly, they all seem to have gone back to using "under square" engines.

Any advice? if you know - asap please before she makes a mistake :scratch:

[husaberg]

Yes Will, I know what you are getting at, and I agree, that's why I said the video with English audio has the better direction of rotation :)

I always felt that a desaxe cylinder could be beneficial, but Neander has a very big desaxe offset. I wonder if anyone has researched the optimum offset.
Yamaha has on foul strokes hence the later YZF450;s and R1s.

[Grumph]

Yes, the "desaxe" effect of that thing certainly is pretty excessive and I'm sure nowhere near the optimum! (either way)!

Not sure if this is the place to ask, but I have a car engine/transmission question and maybe someone here can advise me ..... sorry to get away from bikes.

My wife is looking at a new Suzuki Swift and I found the top model now has a 1 Litre three cylinder turbo with direct injection (petrol)!
Of course, me (being me) and a bit suspicious of turbos had a drive in it just to confirm that it was shit - what a surprise! - It went like I couldn't believe! HEAPS of torque and it just kept on pulling! - but ...... is it likely to keep on doing that for the next 5 years or so?
I was just thinking that it's still a small highly stressed engine!

Alternative is a 1200cc (1240 actually) version, naturally aspirated and fine really, however with a CVT transmission as opposed to a 6 speed "normal" automatic in the turbo model (so I'm not too sure about turbos or CVT transmissions, even though our 2009 Nissan has CVT).

Also surprisingly, they all seem to have gone back to using "under square" engines.

Any advice? if you know - asap please before she makes a mistake :scratch:

If you were in ChCh Will, I'd have no hesitation in saying go for either as we have a brilliant agent here. Gordon Holland - old motorcycle name.
If you're happy with the local agent it still shouldn't be a problem as Suzuki have good backup in NZ.
You pays yer money...Turbo Vs CVT. I've avoided CVT's so far. Few years from now and I won't have a choice but the bugs should be out by then...
Either will work for around town use.

[WilDun]

Turbo Vs CVT. I've avoided CVT's so far. Few years from now and I won't have a choice but the bugs should be out by then ........Either will work for around town use.

Think we might go with a Mazda 2 instead, they are "middle of the road" with already well proven mechanical parts, so now back to bikes - cars don't really interest me a lot anyway!

So, why is it that they don't seem keen to go for turbos and direct injection on bikes as well ?

[Kickaha]

I've avoided CVT's so far. Few years from now and I won't have a choice but the bugs should be out by then...

The work corolla was a CVT I didn't even notice for a couple of months as it felt no different than a normal auto, the previous Nissan one was a bit crap though

[Grumph]

So, why is it that they don't seem keen to go for turbos and direct injection on bikes as well ?

Sales and production volumes won't support that level of tech yet.
I doubt anyone is selling large volumes of medium to large bikes now.
The biggest volumes are still sub 150cc - and we're only just seeing injection appearing on the top lines of those.

[gsxr]

Sales and production volumes won't support that level of tech yet.
I doubt anyone is selling large volumes of medium to large bikes now.
The biggest volumes are still sub 150cc - and we're only just seeing injection appearing on the top lines of those.

I doubt if there will ever be a market for turbo charged bikes again apart from maybe a small production run solely for the wank factor for a very small worldwide market.
Turbos were introduced in the early 80s but offered little if any advantage.Turbo lagwas an issue. I experienced that when I rode the first new Kawasaki turbo in Wellington straight out of the crate assembled at the Friday night pissup at Boyles.
Engine technology has advanced so much that there is no need for a turboed motorcycle cor your cafe putter or your weekend 1000k challenge.
The only advantage would be on a smaller capacity machine to match the performance of a larger capacity machine

[husaberg]

Think we might go with a Mazda 2 instead, they are "middle of the road" with already well proven mechanical parts, so now back to bikes - cars don't really interest me a lot anyway!

So, why is it that they don't seem keen to go for turbos and direct injection on bikes as well ?


Sales and production volumes won't support that level of tech yet.
I doubt anyone is selling large volumes of medium to large bikes now.
The biggest volumes are still sub 150cc - and we're only just seeing injection appearing on the top lines of those.


I doubt if there will ever be a market for turbo charged bikes again apart from maybe a small production run solely for the wank factor for a very small worldwide market.
Turbos were introduced in the early 80s but offered little if any advantage.Turbo lagwas an issue. I experienced that when I rode the first new Kawasaki turbo in Wellington straight out of the crate assembled at the Friday night pissup at Boyles.
Engine technology has advanced so much that there is no need for a turboed motorcycle cor your cafe putter or your weekend 1000k challenge.
The only advantage would be on a smaller capacity machine to match the performance of a larger capacity machine
The problem with the bikes or the early 80;s turbo era such as the CX500/650T and the XN650T was that although they had great performance for a bike their size, they ended up weighing the same as a 1000 or 1100 of the same performance that was cheaper to buy. The added weight was not noticed in a cars of the same era. there was also lag issues as it was new tec. Plus most turbos were to big (they still are)

[Grumph]

The only advantage would be on a smaller capacity machine to match the performance of a larger capacity machine

Necessary if legislation ever restricts motorcycle engines to a "safe" size....

If for instance Japan passed laws restricting bikes to 400cc and a max of 100PS, we'd see them in short order. Particularly if emission standards tightened at the same time.

But of course the Ryger is going to rescue us from that prospect....(cough)

[WilDun]

Necessary if legislation ever restricts motorcycle engines to a "safe" size....

If for instance Japan passed laws restricting bikes to 400cc and a max of 100PS, we'd see them in short order. Particularly if emission standards tightened at the same time.

But of course the Ryger is going to rescue us from that prospect....(cough)

That little Suzuki Swift RS 1L (car) with the turbo seemed to have heaps more bottom end power rather than high end (which I didn't explore but I know they advertise 108 BHP with some other 1 Litre cars advertising 120! - so I guess turbos have come a long way since the eighties at least in the turbo lag and low end torque areas.
I could see a motorcycle/car company like Suzuki, Honda or BMW etc. popping one of their little turbo engines into a bike!

BTW, car engines seem to be getting more and more "undersquare" as opposed to bike engines becoming ridiculously "oversquare" (as in fourstroke motocross bikes) - why is this?

What the hell does 'PS' mean anyway? - and yes I know that my knowledge isn't exactly cutting edge! :laugh:

[Grumph]

I'm sure someone will be along with the correct answer Will, but just call it German HP....I only used it because legislators love to use technical language - even when they don't know what it means.

The undersquare tendency is explained in part by emissions. Easier to get a compact combustion chamber to pass emissions than one with large squish areas.
In part also because torque production over a wide range seems to be becoming more desirable.
Locally the rally guys are limited to a certain boost/capacity formula so they try not to over-cam in order to get that boost as low in the range as possible.
They're also rev limited - severely IMO - so they want to make as close to peak HP and torque across as much range as possible.
What this line leads to is as you discovered, small engines that make big torque.

[husaberg]

I'm sure someone will be along with the correct answer Will, but just call it German HP....I only used it because legislators love to use technical language - even when they don't know what it means.

.

I call it metric HP
As well as emmisions cars don't need as higher specific output or as higher rev range that goes along with it.
FI still has hugely oversquare designs

[Frits Overmars]

What the hell does 'PS' mean anyway?PS is the German abbreviation for PferdeStärke. Pferd = horse, Stärke = strength.
Simple, isn't it?
Well, not quite, because 1 PS = 75 kgfm/s and 1 HP = 76 kgfm/s, so 1 PS = 0,987 HP.
Or, if we make an effort to leave the Stone Age behind:
1 PS = 735,5 W and 1 HP = 745,7 W

In English-speaking regions the PS is also known as metric horsepower and the HP is known as imperial horsepower.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Metric_horsepower

[WilDun]

That's great, now I know the differences, next thing, I need to know which is which one of those differences to use! -
Have I become befuddled as I grow older? or is everyone befuddled with moving goalposts? - what the hell is going on ? or is it a ploy to keep us from knowing too much?
Standards (by definition) are immovable objects, but now it appears that they have invented the (handy) movable standard!

Saw on your link Frits, where HP figures given are calculated (contrived) for taxation. It appears that in the nineteen fifties, British vehicles were taxed on a figure worked out from cylinder bore diameter, so Vauxhall made the 6 cylinder LIP engine with tiny bore diameters and long long stroke to keep taxation costs down!

I have worked in engineering workshops where we had to contend with a huge variety of screw threads, from Whitworth, BSF, BA, AF, NF, NC,UNC,UNF,Metric coarse Metric fine (and all the others in between) and now the Chinese "standards" which are a real enigma!
I won't even bother to discuss all the different gear types and shapes you can have!
What is it with humans? - what a bunch of dopey bastards we are!
:rolleyes:

Here it is:-
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=145728

[tjbw]

Yamaha has on foul strokes hence the later YZF450;s and R1s.

Thanks for that husa. I asked my other friend (G) about desaxe and found from wikipedia that "Early adopters of the Desaxe Principle included Henry Ford, who would fully implement the Desaxe offset into the Ford Flathead V8 engine throughout the 1930s while adopting greater offsets into the 1940s."

Wikipedia also provided this link which looks relevant to my query, though I suspect they concentrated more on friction effects: http://papers.sae.org/2004-01-0606/

Good info here too: https://rideapart.com/articles/free-power-offset-cylinders-explained

Thanks google ;)

[tjbw]

That's great, now I know the differences, next thing, I need to know which is which one of those differences to use! -
Have I become befuddled as I grow older? or is everyone befuddled with moving goalposts? - what the hell is going on ? or is it a ploy to keep us from knowing too much?
Standards (by definition) are immovable objects, but now it appears that they have invented the (handy) movable standard!

Saw on your link Frits, where HP figures given are calculated (contrived) for taxation. It appears that in the nineteen fifties, British vehicles were taxed on a figure worked out from cylinder bore diameter, so Vauxhall made the 6 cylinder LIP engine with tiny bore diameters and long long stroke to keep taxation costs down!

I have worked in engineering workshops where we had to contend with a huge variety of screw threads, from Whitworth, BSF, BA, AF, NF, NC,UNC,UNF,Metric coarse Metric fine (and all the others in between) and now the Chinese "standards" which are a real enigma!
I won't even bother to discuss all the different gear types and shapes you can have!
What is it with humans? - what a bunch of dopey bastards we are!
:rolleyes:

Here it is:-
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=145728

Will, your thread list is incomplete!

I bet you also worked on BSPP and BSPT, (both Whitworth) but what about BSC, Acme and square? ;)

[guyhockley]

That little Suzuki Swift RS 1L (car) with the turbo seemed to have heaps more bottom end power rather than high end (which I didn't explore but I know they advertise 108 BHP with some other 1 Litre cars advertising 120! - so I guess turbos have come a long way since the eighties at least in the turbo lag and low end torque areas.
I could see a motorcycle/car company like Suzuki, Honda or BMW etc. popping one of their little turbo engines into a bike!

BTW, car engines seem to be getting more and more "undersquare" as opposed to bike engines becoming ridiculously "oversquare" (as in fourstroke motocross bikes) - why is this?

What the hell does 'PS' mean anyway? - and yes I know that my knowledge isn't exactly cutting edge! :laugh:

Test drove a Ford B-Max with a 1 litre turbo that has replaced the previous NA 1600. I was expecting a right little screamer, but it was just like driving a 1600, lots of torque and all done by about 6000 revs.
Way off topic, but seen this? Bit like the triple engined Nazi planes where one engine just drove the blowers.
https://raceenginedesign.co.uk/the-manic-beattie/

[tjbw]

I sometimess see posts in ESE thread, which I feel would be relevant here.

For example 3 links to conrod free engine originally Posted by katinas:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwwvidC8CWo

"In second video, he said that bigger engine 1600cc 45kg 200hp".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fuR3HLz-0A

"Its very very precise and too much moving parts"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LboS59_0j1w

Here's another Russian oddball that I found whilst looking at Katinas's links. Is it a "reciprocating rotating cam piston"?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzBgoDeY3Ws

It reminds me of the RCV engine, though RCV uses a bevel gear to rotate the liner/sleeve.

http://www.rcvengines.com/documents/RCV%20IMechE%20Paper.pdf

[ken seeber]

To me the Russion oddball is a product of naïve engineering and some CAD skills.

Now, not an engine, but a prototype from Yamaha.

333164

Bit of as reversal of their in-production Tricity scooter.

333165

[WilDun]

To me the Russion oddball is a product of naïve engineering and some CAD skills.

Now, not an engine, but a prototype from Yamaha.

Bit of as reversal of their in-production Tricity scooter.

Not sure if I should buy one of those or a Neander!

Update: Oh dear, looks like I didn't do something wrong about the link I posted, so I'll get rid of it till I can find the one I should have sent!

[WilDun]

I'd love to check those guys out, but the link you posted points to your mailbox; that doesn't work for us, Will.

Oh dear! - it was an attachment I got in my mail and I'm not really up with the play on how to post it here, but if I find it on you tube I'll send it on. It was at Nurburgring, seemingly on a "free for all" day!

Here it is (at least one bit of it I think) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAboz7fVv6g

Was good (but you'll have to take my word for that cos I can't find it on you tube) - never mind let's move on :facepalm:

[husaberg]

Oh dear! - it was an attachment I got in my mail and I'm not really up with the play on how to post it here, but if I find it on you tube I'll send it on. It was at Nurburgring, seemingly on a "free for all" day!

Here it is (at least one bit of it I think) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAboz7fVv6g

Was good (but you'll have to take my word for that cos I can't find it on you tube) - never mind let's move on :facepalm:

Off the same feed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jw-TqA4U6I

[guyhockley]

Radical old piston material...

[WilDun]

Radical old piston material...

Well, I guess you've got to try everything, but probably it makes as much sense and shows results as good as some of the experiments in steel and ally that we've seen over the years!

BTW where is the best place buy good piston timber? - also "stag" to seal the gaskets :msn-wink:



Off the same feed

Brave men - I'd say coming down would be the most scary part!

[Grumph]

Well, I guess you've got to try everything, but probably it makes as much sense and shows results as good as some of the experiments in steel and ally that we've seen over the years!

BTW where is the best place buy good piston timber? - also "stag" to seal the gaskets :msn-wink:


Now that's showing your age Will, the last tin of Stag I saw was at a local swap meet in the "collectible memorabilia" category....

Those cases look Jawa to my eye.

[WilDun]

Now that's showing your age Will, the last tin of Stag I saw was at a local swap meet in the "collectible memorabilia" category....

Those cases look Jawa to my eye.

Nothing that has ever been invented which will beat Stag and hemp :no: - if you have found something I would like to see it! :yes:

[Grumph]

Nothing that has ever been invented which will beat Stag and hemp :no: - if you have found something I would like to see it! :yes:

Next time a traction engine stops outside my gate - they stop for a pie at the local garage - I'll ask what they use on the steam pipes.....

[Ocean1]

Nothing that has ever been invented which will beat Stag and hemp :no: - if you have found something I would like to see it! :yes:

Think it was chock full of lead oxide wasn't it? Which would explain why it's become extinct, the ravening safety nazis would have banned the shit out of it.

Never did me any harm... :laugh:

The other good shit I haven't seen for yonks is caterpillar gasket cement. Which smelled magnificent and was probably mostly latex.

[husaberg]

Well, I guess you've got to try everything, but probably it makes as much sense and shows results as good as some of the experiments in steel and ally that we've seen over the years!

BTW where is the best place buy good piston timber? - also "stag" to seal the gaskets :msn-wink:




Brave men - I'd say coming down would be the most scary part!


Now that's showing your age Will, the last tin of Stag I saw was at a local swap meet in the "collectible memorabilia" category....

Those cases look Jawa to my eye.


Think it was chock full of lead oxide wasn't it? Which would explain why it's become extinct, the ravening safety nazis would have banned the shit out of it.

Never did me any harm... :laugh:

The other good shit I haven't seen for yonks is caterpillar gasket cement. Which smelled magnificent and was probably mostly latex.
This stuff never heard of it.
https://www.autobarn.com.au/stag-jointing-paste-200-gram-tube-sg200

Looks like blackwoods pykal NZ safety or whatever they are called this month imports it.
https://nzsafetyblackwoods.co.nz/en/Jointing-Gasket-Compound-696?page=1&sortby=&minprice=0&maxprice=300&count=50

How cool you buy o-ring by the metre
https://nzsafetyblackwoods.co.nz/en/O-Rings-Kits-Seals-815?page=1&sortby=&minprice=0&maxprice=400&count=50

[ken seeber]

Dunno if I remember STAG, but the stuff we used was I think called Gasket Goo, in a little jar with a screw top lid with a round brush sticking out from inside the lid. This and a weeties packet (using a small ball peen hammer to do the cutting) for the gasket were the order for the day. Mind you, didn't really help on a Jawa 250 paddock bike with only 4 screws holding the clutch cover on, this having to resist the forces from a coaxial kick starter arrangement. Oil everywhere. If the old pommy bikes had Silastic, the world might have been a better place. :yawn:

I reckon the wood piston had a slow release decompression feature. Cleverly though, they didn't consider putting a Dykes ring in..

[WilDun]

Next time a traction engine stops outside my gate - they stop for a pie at the local garage - I'll ask what they use on the steam pipes.....

Bet they use Stag & hemp.
Guess the Stag was made with a lot of Archangel Tar which is not a particularly good smelling type of pine resin and maybe Iron oxide (or something red anyway). But yes, might've been "red lead".
It seems that with water and steam pipes at least, hemp is good because it expands a lot with moisture.

Ken, I think gasket goo was basically shellac.- everyone used that as well!
I think they used a thinned version of that as wood varnish in the real old days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellac

I used a small ring spanner on gaskets by pushing the ring end down hard on the paper and twisting it back and forth (on the hole area) and rub along the edges with a piece of rounded steel(to get the pattern) and just finish it with scissors
Worked ok but wasn't a job I particularly liked doing though!

[guyhockley]

I was talking to a bloke at the local airfield who rides a Scott. He's running with no head gasket, "just a few loops of silk thread or dental floss around the waterways, like Roger Moss recomends".
http://mossengineering.co.uk/ is a leading Scott specialist, but I can't find anything about not running a head gasket, just lots of discussion about different types and how to use them.
I thought it was funny that we were discussing this at an airfield because one of the aviation engine makers used to (still do?) use a thread set in goo around the crankcase joint.
Read an article on 2 stroke tuning in an american motocross magazine, years ago, and he said you had to go to your local hardware store, find the aluminum paint, reach to the back for the tin with the most dust on it, carry it carefully to the counter and break the bloke's arm if he tried to shake the tin and carry it carefully home. When you opened it you pour off the seperated out oil and then use a brush to paint the residue at the bottom onto your head barrel surfaces. Never tried it...

[Grumph]

I was talking to a bloke at the local airfield who rides a Scott. He's running with no head gasket, "just a few loops of silk thread or dental floss around the waterways, like Roger Moss recomends".
http://mossengineering.co.uk/ is a leading Scott specialist, but I can't find anything about not running a head gasket, just lots of discussion about different types and how to use them.
I thought it was funny that we were discussing this at an airfield because one of the aviation engine makers used to (still do?) use a thread set in goo around the crankcase joint.
Read an article on 2 stroke tuning in an american motocross magazine, years ago, and he said you had to go to your local hardware store, find the aluminum paint, reach to the back for the tin with the most dust on it, carry it carefully to the counter and break the bloke's arm if he tried to shake the tin and carry it carefully home. When you opened it you pour off the seperated out oil and then use a brush to paint the residue at the bottom onto your head barrel surfaces. Never tried it...

Pushrod Norton singles have a timing cover with a particularly narrow joint face and no positive location...A piece of thread run around the joint face while your shellac (or nowadays, RTV) is still tacky is the only way of obtaining a lasting seal.
Same principle as putting wire O rings around the bore to increase local pressure.

[WilDun]

I was talking to a bloke at the local airfield who rides a Scott. He's running with no head gasket, "just a few loops of silk thread or dental floss around the waterways, like Roger Moss recomends"........
Moss Engineering is a leading Scott specialist, but I can't find anything about not running a head gasket, just lots of discussion about different types and how to use them.......
....... go to your local hardware store, find the aluminum paint, reach to the back for the tin with the most dust on it, carry it carefully to the counter and break the bloke's arm if he tried to shake the tin and carry it carefully home. When you opened it you pour off the seperated out oil and then use a brush to paint the residue at the bottom onto your head barrel surfaces. ...

Guy,
That is very interesting :niceone: - also, Moss Engineering seem to have carved out a nice little niche for themselves!

We shouldn't discount the old solutions to sealing problems even though they have disappeared from the market and have been replaced by "wonder compounds".

[guyhockley]

I love this thread, so, just to keep it going...

[WilDun]

I had given up on this thread,
It was more or less first intended to take the heat off the ESE thread but it often cut out completely and then took off again like a bike with a dicky HT lead!
Unfortunately by that time, ESE had already got established as THE place to be for every man and his dog and went so fast that a lot of valuable stuff got swamped in that thread - who wants to delve back into the archives just to retreive a couple of important sentences from way back (ones which may have seemed irrelevant at the time)? The amount of interesting stuff buried in and scattered through that thread is mind boggling!
Hence "Oddball" to the rescue! to store important little interesting snippets, time to discuss them, even have a laugh now and then and of course more easily retreived - While ESE could get on with the business of work in progress without being congested by other (interesting) but "not required at the time" stuff!
(This as opposed to going for the record of having the biggest thread on the net. in terms of the number of posts etc.).

But then, ........... hasn't really happened.
(even Husa has more or less gone).

BTW I would have preferred an Ariel in my lawnmower! and as for NSU on my skates .... no way!.

[husaberg]

I had given up on this thread,
It was more or less first intended to take the heat off the ESE thread but it often cut out completely and then took off again like a bike with a dicky HT lead!
Unfortunately by that time, ESE had already got established as THE place to be for every man and his dog and went so fast that a lot of valuable stuff got swamped in that thread - who wants to delve back into the archives just to retreive a couple of important sentences from way back (ones which may have seemed irrelevant at the time)? The amount of interesting stuff buried in and scattered through that thread is mind boggling!
Hence "Oddball" to the rescue! to store important little interesting snippets, time to discuss them, even have a laugh now and then and of course more easily retreived - While ESE could get on with the business of work in progress without being congested by other (interesting) but "not required at the time" stuff!
(This as opposed to going for the record of having the biggest thread on the net. in terms of the number of posts etc.).

But then, ........... hasn't really happened.
(even Husa has more or less gone).

BTW I would have preferred an Ariel in my lawnmower! and as for NSU on my skates .... no way!.
husas doing some pretty big hours at work at the moment.

[WilDun]

Well in that case this redundant, decrepid old fool will just have to try to keep it alive! :rolleyes:

[Frits Overmars]

I peek in here everyday, Will, right after visiting ESE and before visiting Race-chassis and the Bucket-Foundry. So do keep this place alive.

[pete376403]

I had given up on this thread,
I

BTW I would have preferred an Ariel in my lawnmower! and as for NSU on my skates .... no way!.

I had a J.A.P powered lawnmower - little two stroke thing. I gave to a vintage machinery collector. All my other J.A.Ps were speedway bikes.

[guyhockley]

There are various bits of agricultural machinery in the UK powered by JAP engines similar too the bike ones, apparently. The trick is finding them and not paying too much as everybody thinks all old stuff is valuable.

[WilDun]

There are various bits of agricultural machinery in the UK powered by JAP engines similar too the bike ones, apparently. The trick is finding them and not paying too much as everybody thinks all old stuff is valuable.

I have a very old "Trojan Minimotor" (bicycle engine) which was really the start of the Italian motorcycle industry trying to regenerate itself post war, built under licence by Trojan in the UK (original was called "Mini Motore" - funny enough).
Just the bare engine without all the acoutrements to make it a bicycle motor! I bought it in a box along with a couple of old Villiers engines.

BTW One of those was my very first motorcycle! and I just kept it for old times sake, but it has been sitting in a box for around 10 years now and there is still no sign of it reassembling itself so far! - Needs a new home with a loving owner!
Also BTW, I do believe YOW LING is the proud owner of another one!

Anyone interested?


I had a J.A.P powered lawnmower - little two stroke thing. I gave to a vintage machinery collector. All my other J.A.Ps were speedway bikes.

Pete did you ever meet or know of Ron Phillips or Len Jelaca? (two keen speedway guys I used to work with - unfortunately both now dead).


I peek in here everyday, Will, right after visiting ESE and before visiting Race-chassis and the Bucket-Foundry. So do keep this place alive.

Thanks Frits, guess I should plod on and I'm sure Husa will be glad to pop in now and again! (when he's not working his ass off)!

[pete376403]

Pete did you ever meet or know of Ron Phillips or Len Jelaca? (two keen speedway guys I used to work with - unfortunately both now dead).
)!

I don't recall either of those names. My racing "career" was mostly in Wellington, with occasional forays to Palmerston North, Wanganui and Napier. And one time to KihiKihi. 1974 ish to 1991.

[WilDun]

I don't recall either of those names. My racing "career" was mostly in Wellington, with occasional forays to Palmerston North, Wanganui and Napier. And one time to KihiKihi. 1974 ish to 1991.

Ron was an Aussie and had raced in Britain and len was a Kiwi who raced at Western Springs mostly.
I should have got them to get me going in speedway, probably would have suited me better than road racing, however I wasn't as interested in speedway in those days but used to watch it at Auckland and Kihikihi occasionally.
Got very interested in it since it has come on TV lately - great spectator sport anyway!

[WilDun]

This was the ad that Suzuki used for the T500 when it first landed in the USA! - They obviously had never heard of the (watercooled) Scott - 50 odd years before!
I am glad to see that Americans don't seem to say "Dual Stroke" or more especially "Dual Cycle" for two strokes anymore! (that could of course be because the younger generation have never even heard of them!).

333590

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2017/october/scott-flying-squirrel-two-stroke/

[Michael Moore]

note the asterisk -- they were the world's first *posi-force" 500.

Dual-stroke sounds like the product of a Japanese advertising company, I've never heard that used before.

[guyhockley]

I know the split single/twingle discussion was originally on the ESE thread but it seems more appropriate here and this is going to be a somewhat inconclusive post, anyway.
Last week, or so, I was looking at the website of an engine manufactor. Their main products were flat twin 2 strokes for UAVs or models but they had an experimental split single. The secondary, much smaller, piston was used as part of the fuel system along the lines of the FAST system to enable it to run on "heavy fuel". Trouble is, I can't remember the name and can't find it in my browser history or a Google search so no link, I'm afraid.

[Grumph]

A bit of an appeal here....
Talking to Ken Macintosh at Levels yesterday, we remarked on the Lyster Matchless on display. Actually although it's now got a 7R engine in it, us oldies remember it as having a G50 fitted when it won two NZ titles...
However, Ken realised I've got a part built Lyster Honda in the shed and asked if I knew what had happened to the "half-an-Imp" 500 that Colin built.
Ken's got a mate who's very interested in either tracking it down or building a replica...

I know the bike features in a couple of books but I've never heard what happened to it. Personally, I suspect it may have donated the rolling chassis to the 8V 450 honda project...

Michael, anyone ever supplied you with any information ? You've filled in some of the 450's history by putting up pics of it in the US after it had disappeared from the UK.

[WilDun]

note the asterisk -- they were the world's first *posi-force" 500.

Dual-stroke sounds like the product of a Japanese advertising company, I've never heard that used before.

Michael, That ad was always an enigma to me and is the only time I have heard of "Dual Stroke" also - you are probably right about it having been produced by an advertising company who really didn't know what they were describing when hired by Suzuki - I can see some confusion showing through there - however, it was the only 500cc twin two stroke on the market at the time I guess.
I think the T500 sold itself quite well (despite the strange advertising) - pity it eventually had to succumb to the Suzuki four strokes!
The words "Dual Cycle" seem to be gradually disappearing from the scene these days.

[guyhockley]

Sadly, it's been rebuilt and is now probably an investment opportunity rather than a bike.
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/h-and-h/catalogue-id-ibhh10026/lot-4342e003-34b8-43f3-8540-a6b9011ba9ad
Pretty sure one of my brother-in-laws magazines (Classic Bike, maybe?) has an article about the restoration.
Wasn't there also a half-Ford Lyster along similar lines?

[guyhockley]

This might be interesting, text only version for your dial-up connection, Greg;

http://forum.theimpclub.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=30755&sid=fd5488760c14d2bcc95ef5eac5e58022&view=print

Full fat with pictures:

http://forum.theimpclub.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=30755

[guyhockley]

Found it.

333609333608333610333611

Something a bit odd, the article implies it was never completed but...

333612

from a contemporary french magazine. Looks pretty complete. Could just be a trial assembly, I suppose. Also found this:

333613

Possibly the same picture as in the thread I linked to. Hope this helps someone, anyway.

[Michael Moore]

Greg,

http://www.eurospares.com/graphic2.htm

has links to the photos of Lyster's bikes. I've got a few others on file which aren't on the website

cheers,
Michael

[Michael Moore]

here are some more:

[Michael Moore]

and still more:

[Michael Moore]

and one more:

[Grumph]

Thanks gents. I'll pop over to my local library on Monday and look at it all on their broadband...
But I did look at the French pic and it's probably the best period shot of the bike I've seen. Some anomalies though..
The frame is the early type as done for the lightweight singles - but it has the Lyster handlebar mastercylinder and what appear to be one piece cast discs.
The 450 - which is chronologically later - has the more common floating mild steel discs and is the evolved frame as in the bare frame pic.
Same as the one I have here except I'd have to say the one here is rougher....MIG welded instead of bronzed.

Got a surprise at the Imp forum thread - there's a well known Kiwi special builder Peter Jones - but not the same one.

[husaberg]

Thanks gents. I'll pop over to my local library on Monday and look at it all on their broadband...
But I did look at the French pic and it's probably the best period shot of the bike I've seen. Some anomalies though..
The frame is the early type as done for the lightweight singles - but it has the Lyster handlebar mastercylinder and what appear to be one piece cast discs.
The 450 - which is chronologically later - has the more common floating mild steel discs and is the evolved frame as in the bare frame pic.
Same as the one I have here except I'd have to say the one here is rougher....MIG welded instead of bronzed.

Got a surprise at the Imp forum thread - there's a well known Kiwi special builder Peter Jones - but not the same one.

A few lyster stuff i did earlier
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=5076

[Grumph]

A few lyster stuff i did earlier

The pic of the 7R engine in Lance Weil's ? Bike made me chuckle. The same combination I was looking at Friday, the cambox was hard up against the top frame rail in the one out here. Well over an inch of clearance in the pic. Every one hand built....

[guyhockley]

In this picture from the blog Husa posted a link to earlier, seems to be a different radiator arrangement. Bike seems a bit lacking in that department, either way?
But, most importantly, what's that strapped to the seat hump? Tape recorder?

[husaberg]

In this picture from the blog Husa posted a link to earlier, seems to be a different radiator arrangement. Bike seems a bit lacking in that department, either way?
But, most importantly, what's that strapped to the seat hump? Tape recorder?
I think that was you dude...........
No idea what it is on the hump.

[Grumph]

It's a battery in the seat hump. Coil ignition, lucas distributor visible as are coils. Pipes run too close to put it under the seat so in the tail it goes...
The pic in Mick Walker's book showing Colin on an airfield runway somewhere, riding it and looking down at the engine, shows the battery better.

[husaberg]

It's a battery in the seat hump. Coil ignition, lucas distributor visible as are coils. Pipes run too close to put it under the seat so in the tail it goes...
The pic in Mick Walker's book showing Colin on an airfield runway somewhere, riding it and looking down at the engine, shows the battery better.

This one Greg
333646

For Will, something i had never seen before a factory Rotax gp bike from 73 note the gearbox.
333647
Not sure if i ever posted the laydown bomedair 500cc twin

[guyhockley]

Battery, DEUH! Don't post at 2 o'clock in the morning when you've just come back from a party...

Husa, when I googled Colin Lyster, one of the results was this thread from about a year ago and you posted a link to The Vintagent blog, so I didn't link to

http://thevintagent.com/2016/10/27/rara-avis-the-unique-lynton-racer/

Some of the pictures are the same ones as other places, there are only so many in existence from those pre-digital days, I guess.

[guyhockley]

For those, like Wil, who don't realise what high tech, finely developed machines Harleys are...

https://www.hotbikeweb.com/removing-stock-harley-davidson-pushrods-with-bolt-cutters-is-snap

The link itself kind of gives it away!

[guyhockley]

Apparently, the Lynton Imp was at the Classic Racing Club's festival. Wonder if it was just a static exhibit (with a pristine drip tray!)

http://www.crmc.co.uk/donington-2017/#&gid=1&pid=3

[Michael Moore]

There's more on the Can Am/Rotax 500 twin in this folder on my website:

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/CanAm_Rotax

[husaberg]

There's more on the Can Am/Rotax 500 twin in this folder on my website:

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/CanAm_Rotax


Classic bike did a 3-5 page write up on the can am laydown twin in the late 80's with Jeff Smith.
i have it somewhere.............
it was a very neat bike shame it was killed off.
If i recall correctly they made 4-or 5 including, i think, a racer prototype.

Michael, That 175 road racer is beautiful

[WilDun]

For those, like Wil, who don't realise what high tech, finely developed machines Harleys are...

https://www.hotbikeweb.com/removing-stock-harley-davidson-pushrods-with-bolt-cutters-is-snap

The link itself kind of gives it away!

Progress is just never ending - we just keep on learning (over and over again) - I have seen many of these new innovations come and go three or four times (this one is particularly brilliant of course) - the key word here is "simplicity" - that word also might even apply to one or two of the riders! - I experienced about 3 seperate instances of rider stupidity on a trip to Tauranga and back on Saturday and Sunday. (not necessarily confined to Harleys of course).

I need to add that I do like the look of some of the Harley engines, I just don't like to see the bikes festooned with dumb add ons like ape hangers (and dumb Apes).

There is one thing that Harley genuinely excels at and that is marketing!


Michael / Husa - thanks for the stuff on the Rotax - I missed all that during a 20 or so year "lull" in my motorcycle interest!

[WilDun]

HUSA,
Couldn't find the stuff you were referring to on Smithy and the CanAm but here is a bit on the "Titanium" BSA anyway.

333651

http://www.motorsportretro.com/2010/10/english-beat-the-story-of-the-500cc-titanium-bsa/

[T.W.R]

Here's a couple of pics of Ray Pollards Imp powered sidecar unit done a couple of years before the Lyster
And a Pic of Art Sparks "Spartus" engine dohc 4v again done a couple of years earlier

[Grumph]

Imp powered outfits appeared very shortly after the Imp went into production. But that's the first inline layout I've seen. Conventional wisdom was lean the engine forward with carbs and pipes behind the steering head. To get your Norton gearbox to survive, you fitted the largest possible rear wheel sprocket and worked forward from that. The idea being to run the gearbox at the highest possible rpm to avoid exposing it to excessive torque....It sometimes worked...

There's a Post Classic Imp powered chair under construction in ChCh. I've donated the back half of a Z1 engine broken in two in a fatal. The edges will clean up for cover plates/mount plates and they'll have a box that will handle anything they can throw at it. The late owner would be tickled too, he loved oddities.

That thing of Art Sparks is very early 4V style. Honda copy wide valve angles - and slow burning too I'd bet.

[guyhockley]

Imp powered outfits appeared very shortly after the Imp went into production. But that's the first inline layout I've seen. Conventional wisdom was lean the engine forward with carbs and pipes behind the steering head. To get your Norton gearbox to survive, you fitted the largest possible rear wheel sprocket and worked forward from that. The idea being to run the gearbox at the highest possible rpm to avoid exposing it to excessive torque....It sometimes worked...

There's a Post Classic Imp powered chair under construction in ChCh. I've donated the back half of a Z1 engine broken in two in a fatal. The edges will clean up for cover plates/mount plates and they'll have a box that will handle anything they can throw at it. The late owner would be tickled too, he loved oddities.

That thing of Art Sparks is very early 4V style. Honda copy wide valve angles - and slow burning too I'd bet.
What's the primary drive going to be on the Z1mp?

[guyhockley]

Here's a couple of pics of Ray Pollards Imp powered sidecar unit done a couple of years before the Lyster
And a Pic of Art Sparks "Spartus" engine dohc 4v again done a couple of years earlier
I think the 500 was done with a very short stroke crank about 35mm if it's the one I remember.

[Grumph]

What's the primary drive going to be on the Z1mp?

I've suggested duplex chain. A guy in the UK trading as Andychain I think has come up with a source of very high quality duplex and is selling them for quite a few applications. I've had a couple off a stockist in Queensland for Laverdas. Very reasonable price too.
Anyway, the box is a crossover so they can juggle it's location to suit either the primary chain line or final drive. I can come up with the guts of a Z1 clutch too.

The project seems to be on hold at present as the builder has broken an arm...

[T.W.R]

That thing of Art Sparks is very early 4V style. Honda copy wide valve angles - and slow burning too I'd bet.

Just had a quick google but there's only seems to be reference to books on the guy & the sale of a apparently very rare investors prospectus for the Indy Car development racer.

Was looking for bits on the imp and stumbled into it, the magazine had another pic that they were requesting info on.....a privateer V4 triumph racer that looked almost like the supercharged AJS


I think the 500 was done with a very short stroke crank about 35mm if it's the one I remember.

I was hoping one of the later editions of the mag would've had some more info/pics but haven't found anything and there's big gaps in the issues

[Grumph]

Just had a quick google but there's only seems to be reference to books on the guy & the sale of a apparently very rare investors prospectus for the Indy Car development racer.

Was looking for bits on the imp and stumbled into it, the magazine had another pic that they were requesting info on.....a privateer V4 triumph racer that looked almost like the supercharged AJS


Art Sparks was one of the guys behind the Novi Indy V8 back in the day. He also produced what was probably the final development of the Offy indy engine - a narrow valve angle head. Very Cosworth....

That double Triumph - built in NZ ? I remember a magazine asking for details on one some years back. There followed some letters in subsequent issues where it was at first thought it had been built by Mo Haley but it was identified as having been built by another one of the sidecar guys back in the day.

[T.W.R]

Art Sparks was one of the guys behind the Novi Indy V8 back in the day. He also produced what was probably the final development of the Offy indy engine - a narrow valve angle head. Very Cosworth....

That double Triumph - built in NZ ? I remember a magazine asking for details on one some years back. There followed some letters in subsequent issues where it was at first thought it had been built by Mo Haley but it was identified as having been built by another one of the sidecar guys back in the day.

Interesting read that he was a stunt rider in his early years, the pic of him jumping the Harley over the canyon is a beaut....no fear in those days :laugh:

Nah the Trumpy is a Pommy built thing apparently pic was taken at Snetterton in the 70s, the info request was in a late 70s edition of Motorcycle Sport

[guyhockley]

I've suggested duplex chain. A guy in the UK trading as Andychain I think has come up with a source of very high quality duplex and is selling them for quite a few applications. I've had a couple off a stockist in Queensland for Laverdas. Very reasonable price too.
Anyway, the box is a crossover so they can juggle it's location to suit either the primary chain line or final drive. I can come up with the guts of a Z1 clutch too.

The project seems to be on hold at present as the builder has broken an arm...
I've been told that the triplex Lav chain (pull that to flush?!) can be replaced by a duplex that is a Mercedes engine timing chain. Just paddock gossip, so no guarantees...
Reason I asked was because I also have a Kawa box for a future project. When Tigcraft where running their BOTT GPZ/EX 500 they supposedly ran a slipper clutch from a later sports bike in the original basket, so I was planning to see if the 500 clutch was an easy fit to my GPZ750 mainshaft so I can use a Morse chain prmary. Embarrassingly, all the bits are in the same shed but I haven't got around to it, yet.

[Grumph]

I've been told that the triplex Lav chain (pull that to flush?!) can be replaced by a duplex that is a Mercedes engine timing chain. Just paddock gossip, so no guarantees...
Reason I asked was because I also have a Kawa box for a future project. When Tigcraft where running their BOTT GPZ/EX 500 they supposedly ran a slipper clutch from a later sports bike in the original basket, so I was planning to see if the 500 clutch was an easy fit to my GPZ750 mainshaft so I can use a Morse chain prmary. Embarrassingly, all the bits are in the same shed but I haven't got around to it, yet.

I'd think that the early ZX7 slipper either will fit or can be made to fit. The GPZ fours have a gear driven clutch - and a morse primary. The GPZ twins have a clutch driven by a morse on the drum outer dia. Never felt the need of a slipper on the 500's till we supercharged one and effectively doubled the rotating mass - but the engine braking was very severe.
Yes, chain of choice is the merc duplex, made by Iwis.

I'm not a fan of morse chains for primaries. Very heavy in relation to load capacity IMO.
When i did a big XS Yamaha triple for local pre 82 racing I discussed with the owner converting it to the merc duplex. The OE morse is unbelievably heavy.
Didn't do it - $$$. In conversation with the Queensland Laverda guy I told him about the XS and he said he was looking at putting a morse on a race Laverda triple. I'm pretty sure I talked him out of that, LOL.

Never knew Tigcraft did a 500. I did two, still got mine in the barn, it won the F3 support class at the last WSB round held here. The other one was national F3 champ 2 years running - on big doses of nitro. The yanks warn that they break this that and everything else. Take the mass of the alternator rotor off the crank and you get rid of the torsional vibe problems and the crank lasts. Rods stood up to 18lb boost, no probs....

[WilDun]

............Yes, chain of choice is the merc duplex, made by Iwis..................I'm not a fan of morse chains for primaries. Very heavy in relation to load capacity IMO.

I always knew that silent chain was available, but I had no idea there were so many complicated variations of it!
Tooth form generally seems similar to a rack and it's just as complicated as gearing!
For some of the purposes we are talking about here, maybe it isn't suitable, but with timing chains I guess it eliminates a lot of gearwheels.
I'm sure it's better used where it gets a lot of oil (ie as opposed to pre-lubed and sealed roller chain) - guess it would be difficult to lube properly otherwise?

[Grumph]

Morse chain is pretty well universal now for cam drives. It started coming in from the early 80's - replacing roller chains. Honda and Kawasaki both used it for primary chains up till space considerations made everything gear primary. Generally speaking, 750's and above had a pressure oil jet built into the cases to keep it wet. Below that capacity it's just splash and drain down to lube them.

I'm assuming that the old selling point of Morse chains - price - was the driving force for change because they don't last any longer than a good roller chain.
But it's got harder to find a good roller cam chain now. Tsubaki was the best but it's almost impossible to find now.

There's a guy here - who may even chime in - who's cut a number of CBX 550 Hondas in half with broken Morse chains....

[Michael Moore]

The photos from the Spartus article are in this folder with file names starting with spartus

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/engine/

There's also SpartusSingle.pdf for the full article.

Sparks and Witham were S&W valve springs.

cheers,
Michael

[T.W.R]

The photos from the Spartus article are in this folder with file names starting with spartus

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/engine/

There's also SpartusSingle.pdf for the full article.

Sparks and Witham were S&W valve springs.

cheers,
Michael

60hp from the single isn't too shabby...that's just shy of what Ducati's Supermono produced :blink:

[guyhockley]

My plan was to use the 500 clutch and primary chain with the 750 box, ignoring the jackshaft that drives the original clutch. May not happen but those are all bits I already have - that old justification for dodgy engineering!
I know of 2 examples where Morse chains are/were not well lubricated. There's a dutchman called Hans De Witt who runs a very original Konig in european classic races and that has an open Morse primary, presumably as Kim Newcombe designed it? There are usually smears of white grease on the the chain. There are photos of Rudi Kurth's Yamaha triple outfit that has a long first stage Morse secondary drive chain back to a shaft that then drives the back wheel with a roller chain.

Here's an article about Tigcraft's ER500 (as they seem to have called it) - it's that man Crashcart so some details are a bit iffy...
I've tried to shrink it, Greg but the files are still about 1.5mb each and 10+ overall, sorry.

[guyhockley]

Hmm, they seem to have ended up in reverse order and Kiwibiker says they're about half the size my computer does...
Here's the rest, anyway.

[guyhockley]

Back to Hillman Imps, if a Lynton replica is doubtful, how about one of these!

[guyhockley]

Also, to answer the lineage/design question of the Imp engine:

The Hillman 875cc engine


by Leo Kuzmicki, A Craig Miller and Peter Ware


From the paper presented at the symposium on the Design of Small Mass Produced Car Engines in November 1963, and presented to the Scottish branch of the Mechanical Engineers (Automobile Division) in Glasgow on Monday, January 20, 1964.
Prologue


The all-aluminium Hillman Imp engine developed from the Coventry Climax design was one of the design features of 1963. The bulk of the development work on this engine was carried out by the three Rootes leading engineers named above. Peter Ware is a director and chief executive engineer of Humber Ltd, while Leo Kuzmicki and A. Craig Miller are both chief engineers with Humber.

[Grumph]

Interesting design attribution for the Imp. I've read in several places that Harry Mundy of Coventry Climax was responsible for much of it. If you take it that the Imp was a productionised FPF Climax, then maybe he was. So that's where Kuzmicki went post Norton....bet it paid better than Norton did.

I hae me doots about your kawasaki parts mix. I've worked on both the fours and the twins and neer the twain shall meet if you'll pardon my scots.
You've got my email, if you want to get more detailed, we can talk.

Open morse primaries - some years back, I was asked if I'd scrutineer the local big BEARS meeting - the Sound of Thunder. I answered yes, sure but there'd be a tightening up on standards, starting with a committee menber's Norton which ran an open morse primary...Our rules state all primary chains must be covered.
Funnily enough they never got back to me....

Kawa 500's....Mine, 500cc, megacycle cams, RS36's, low budget....72hp and 142kg with about 4l of fuel - Meth/toluene brew. Tony McMurdos' Pink Thing, around 88hp and 145kg with a Honda VFR frame, same cams, RS38's and usually 25% nitro/meth/toluene brew. Much earlier than the Tigcraft effort - around the '87-89 period.
Finally read the Tigcraft article. Prob was an ER5 engine. The earlier EX500's gave no gearbox problems - even supercharged. Never even undercut the box in either engine. They were also revving it a bit low - with better springs and a local aftermarket ignition box we were using 13 grand as the limit. Never broke a crank but did a big end on one.

[guyhockley]

Interesting design attribution for the Imp. I've read in several places that Harry Mundy of Coventry Climax was responsible for much of it. If you take it that the Imp was a productionised FPF Climax, then maybe he was. So that's where Kuzmicki went post Norton....bet it paid better than Norton did.

I hae me doots about your kawasaki parts mix. I've worked on both the fours and the twins and neer the twain shall meet if you'll pardon my scots.
You've got my email, if you want to get more detailed, we can talk.

Open morse primaries - some years back, I was asked if I'd scrutineer the local big BEARS meeting - the Sound of Thunder. I answered yes, sure but there'd be a tightening up on standards, starting with a committee menber's Norton which ran an open morse primary...Our rules state all primary chains must be covered.
Funnily enough they never got back to me....

Kawa 500's....Mine, 500cc, megacycle cams, RS36's, low budget....72hp and 142kg with about 4l of fuel - Meth/toluene brew. Tony McMurdos' Pink Thing, around 88hp and 145kg with a Honda VFR frame, same cams, RS38's and usually 25% nitro/meth/toluene brew. Much earlier than the Tigcraft effort - around the '87-89 period.

I was bought the Coventry Climax Engine book as a present but never got round to reading it, yet. I'll dig it out and see if that says anything relevant - got 2-3 hours on the road, tomorrow, and torn ligaments so mrs is driving. Depends if the car sickness holds off! Harry Mundy - also involved in the Lotus Twin Cam?

The Kawa project is a long way down the list, so, thanks for the offer and I may get back to you if we're both still around...

Did Kim Newcombe use a Morse primary, and why, I wonder? Anyone got the book?

I was gobsmacked at 72bhp from 500cc, then I got to the fuel bit :-)

[guyhockley]

650 custom framed GPZ500 - text reads a bit oddly because it's a translation from german, I think. Don't know what the excuse is for the poor maths...

[guyhockley]

Got things a bit out of order.

[Grumph]

I was bought the Coventry Climax Engine book as a present but never got round to reading it, yet. I'll dig it out and see if that says anything relevant - got 2-3 hours on the road, tomorrow, and torn ligaments so mrs is driving. Depends if the car sickness holds off! Harry Mundy - also involved in the Lotus Twin Cam?

The Kawa project is a long way down the list, so, thanks for the offer and I may get back to you if we're both still around...

Did Kim Newcombe use a Morse primary, and why, I wonder? Anyone got the book?

I was gobsmacked at 72bhp from 500cc, then I got to the fuel bit :-)

Yes, I think Harry did the twink. See my additions to previous post. That fuel mix we developed in a GSXR1100 which Holden rode for a season here.
No idea what HP it made but it laid good Michelin slick rubber literally everywhere. Holden set lap records everywhere he rode it that season.

[guyhockley]

According to the book
https://www.veloce.co.uk/shop/products/productDetail.php?prod_id=V283&prod_group=Motorsport
Harry Munday was only at Coventry Climax from 1950-1955 but he very definitely laid the foundations for the future engines and remained a (hard) drinking best buddy of Walter Hassan, the chief engineer.
The genesis of the Imp was the FWM = Featherweight marine and was originally a vertically mounted 650 outboard engine. It became the 750 FWMA (A for auto) at Colin Chapman's bidding and did well at Le Mans. Other versions, Fire pump, pressure washer etc. followed. The MKII was bored and stroked to 875 and this was the one that Rootes started with. Coventry Climax regarded the whole thing as a bit of a disaster with Rootes redesigning various aspects of the engine without testing or listening to advice! It didn't stop them getting involved again later, though, as they developed the 998 conversion.
Leo Kuzmicki is described as ex-Vanwall which makes sense given the connections between them and Norton.
Probably enough about a car engine on this Kiwibikers site? :-)
One last bit from me - for TWR - this mentions the Pollard Imp (as well as his half-an-Anglia engine).

[T.W.R]

Did a quick look through previous posts & laughed at the search function
Here's R.E. "Bob" Geeson's REG

[T.W.R]

Second half

[WilDun]

Leo Kuzmicki is described as ex-Vanwall which makes sense given the connections between them and Norton.
Probably enough about a car engine on this Kiwibikers site? :-)
One last bit from me - for TWR - this mentions the Pollard Imp (as well as his half-an-Anglia engine).

Guy, an engine is an engine, whatever it's in! The Imp engine (to me anyway) worked as well on bikes as it did on cars and the engineers seemed happy with it being used in anything!

[WilDun]

Good article on the REG!

[T.W.R]

Good article on the REG!

I was having a google about him and the only thing I found was a brief that Crashcart did in 2011 for Motorcycle Classics

[Grumph]

I was having a google about him and the only thing I found was a brief that Crashcart did in 2011 for Motorcycle Classics

Got an article here somewhere in an early Classic Bike or Classic Racer about him and the REG's. The magazines are now recycling the same subjects again...

[Michael Moore]

That's why when they came up for renewal this last time I dropped all of the "classic/vintage" magazine subscriptions. They've pretty much been on the recycling kick for 4-5 years or more -- how many T120 or DBD34 articles does a person need to see in their life?

But then starting earlier this year I'm also selling off all the bike stuff that qualifies as "old". I began riding them when they were new, now after 45+ years they don't interest me much, there's no novelty left. 4 more vintage dirt bikes and parts to go and then I can give up the last 200 sq ft of warehouse space (300 sq ft given up in July) and I'll have just a couple of modern bikes that don't need a pile of parts bikes here at home.

[husaberg]

According to the book
https://www.veloce.co.uk/shop/products/productDetail.php?prod_id=V283&prod_group=Motorsport
Harry Munday was only at Coventry Climax from 1950-1955 but he very definitely laid the foundations for the future engines and remained a (hard) drinking best buddy of Walter Hassan, the chief engineer.
The genesis of the Imp was the FWM = Featherweight marine and was originally a vertically mounted 650 outboard engine. It became the 750 FWMA (A for auto) at Colin Chapman's bidding and did well at Le Mans. Other versions, Fire pump, pressure washer etc. followed. The MKII was bored and stroked to 875 and this was the one that Rootes started with. Coventry Climax regarded the whole thing as a bit of a disaster with Rootes redesigning various aspects of the engine without testing or listening to advice! It didn't stop them getting involved again later, though, as they developed the 998 conversion.
Leo Kuzmicki is described as ex-Vanwall which makes sense given the connections between them and Norton.
Probably enough about a car engine on this Kiwibikers site? :-)
One last bit from me - for TWR - this mentions the Pollard Imp (as well as his half-an-Anglia engine).
i posted the vanwalll stuff earlier on
not in this thread as it seems........ i might re scan it as i am not looking through 10000 pics to fnd it
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/171300-Oddball-engines-and-prototypes?p=1131022514&highlight=vanwall#post1131022514
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/171300-Oddball-engines-and-prototypes?p=1131022378&highlight=vanwall#post1131022378

[guyhockley]

Think Sammy Miller has the REG in his museum.

[WilDun]

Think Sammy Miller has the REG in his museum.

I'm sure he has, probably the best collection of famous bikes ever!

Sammy of course was big time trials champion, but he was no slouch at road racing, competing with (and beating) people like Hailwood in his earlier days!

[Michael Moore]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Prototype-Offenhauser-Offy-Single-Cylinder-Midget-Racing-Engine-/122844929365

This looks very similar to the Spartus single mentioned earlier.

[pete376403]

Someone (I recall it was Bill Sergent but may be wrong) turned up at te marua speedway with a jawa 2V with an offenhauser 4V head on it (This was before jawa began producing their own 4V motors, but after the Ivan Tighe/NeilStreet conversions became popular.

[Grumph]

Someone (I recall it was Bill Sergent but may be wrong) turned up at te marua speedway with a jawa 2V with an offenhauser 4V head on it (This was before jawa began producing their own 4V motors, but after the Ivan Tighe/NeilStreet conversions became popular.

There's a small bell ringing faintly in the back of my head - I seem to remember the old man saying that one of the Milne bros was behind a 4V conversion coming out of the states around that time. As an ex speedway pro he kept track of that sort of thing - and he'd met Cordy Milne before the war when he came out to NZ. It's a very small and esoteric area of engine development done by a small group of people.
I can't search well enough to come up with any links sorry.

[T.W.R]

Similar to the BVR 5v motor being made for speedway then the ban on anything more than 4v causing the BVR to be ineligible for speedway use

[Grumph]

Similar to the BVR 5v motor being made for speedway then the ban on anything more than 4v causing the BVR to be ineligible for speedway use

I've always taken reports of the BVR engine's performance with a hefty dose of cynicism. From doing a lot with 5 valve heads I know just how vital a programmable ignition is to getting them to make power - and if I remember right Valentine was using a simple mag...
Liked his V twins though....

[T.W.R]

I've always taken reports of the BVR engine's performance with a hefty dose of cynicism. From doing a lot with 5 valve heads I know just how vital a programmable ignition is to getting them to make power - and if I remember right Valentine was using a simple mag...
Liked his V twins though....

I stumbled across a small article in an old Classic Bike mag about a Swedish bloke Ebbe Troedsson who commissioned Rodger Tichmarsh to build a Seeley replica special but the motor he had would fit so paid nearly 3000 pound for a non runner BVR motor & gearbox to fit into the special and it all ended up in a shit fight and duly ended with Valentine saying production of the motor had ceased. There was just a small background about the intended usage.

[pete376403]

There's a small bell ringing faintly in the back of my head - I seem to remember the old man saying that one of the Milne bros was behind a 4V conversion coming out of the states around that time. As an ex speedway pro he kept track of that sort of thing - and he'd met Cordy Milne before the war when he came out to NZ. It's a very small and esoteric area of engine development done by a small group of people.
I can't search well enough to come up with any links sorry.

Drake 4v conversion - "This JAWA conversion was developed by the DRAKE Corporation whose main claim to fame was the fabulous Offenhauser engine as used in the Indianapolis 500 car race, from which the head design was used on the Speedway engine.

The engine was actually designed by Hans Herman who was the Chief designer of DRAKE engineering whilst the owner of the company and Chief engineer was Ed Schafer, who also worked for SRS (Speedway Research and Specialties), and revealed that the 4-valve head was inclined at twenty degrees and pushrod operated.
The engine, tested by American and Exeter star Scott Autrey, became available for the start of the 1976 season and featured a flat piston with 4v cut-out. Mr Schafer noted, "The benefit of our 4v Head is that it bolts on to a JAWA engine with no modifications or machining required. The conversion kit consisted of the following:
Cylinderhead complete with valveguides , springs , rocker arms pushrods.
2 ring forged piston 14 / 1 compression ratio
When you placed your order you sent your cams to be reground and the price of the conversion kit was $ 600.00 US

We would like to thank Bert Sergent from New Zealand who has kindly sent us the following pictures of the DRAKE (Speedway Research) Motor:"

http://cybermotorcycle.com/archives/speedwaybikes/drake.htm. (no pictures though)

[Grumph]

I stumbled across a small article in an old Classic Bike mag about a Swedish bloke Ebbe Troedsson who commissioned Rodger Tichmarsh to build a Seeley replica special but the motor he had would fit so paid nearly 3000 pound for a non runner BVR motor & gearbox to fit into the special and it all ended up in a shit fight and duly ended with Valentine saying production of the motor had ceased. There was just a small background about the intended usage.

What I saw was the original announcement/teaser piece - again in a Classic Bike or Classic Racer mag - where Valentine quoted a test rider as saying "it's an absolute animal" yeah, right. No perfomance data supplied and as I said, pretty sure the pics showed the usual speedway mag ignition.

Well done Pete - good skills finding that. My old man may still have been correct about a Milne involvement as Drake wouldn't have developed it on their own without some prompting...

[T.W.R]

What I saw was the original announcement/teaser piece - again in a Classic Bike or Classic Racer mag - where Valentine quoted a test rider as saying "it's an absolute animal" yeah, right. No perfomance data supplied and as I said, pretty sure the pics showed the usual speedway mag ignition.

Well done Pete - good skills finding that. My old man may still have been correct about a Milne involvement as Drake wouldn't have developed it on their own without some prompting...

Here's the small article I have....quiet an interesting read, no wonder Troedsson was pissed off :rolleyes: makes the motor look like a real Walter Mitty effort.

A link to the piece about them being ineligible for speedway & long track by the FIM regulation

https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjywu2Wpo_YAhVFyLwKHThZAaUQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcybermotorcycle.com%2Farchives%2F speedwaybikes%2Fbvr.htm&usg=AOvVaw0P_eRwE7ArWDZNhZiFMUq8

[husaberg]

Here's the small article I have....quiet an interesting read, no wonder Troedsson was pissed off :rolleyes: makes the motor look like a real Walter Mitty effort.

A link to the piece about them being ineligible for speedway & long track by the FIM regulation

https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjywu2Wpo_YAhVFyLwKHThZAaUQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcybermotorcycle.com%2Farchives%2F speedwaybikes%2Fbvr.htm&usg=AOvVaw0P_eRwE7ArWDZNhZiFMUq8

I remember young Valentines reply to the article he said something about the fins only being decrotive anyway.:msn-wink:
His father had designed the way the finger rockers works after he had said he wanted to do the 5 valve.
He was only about 23 or maybe younger when the engine was put into production
from what i understantd BVR also made only 5 5v v twins and NZ got 3 of them
https://s22.postimg.org/4ihb991zl/Weslake_V_twin_DOHC_5_V.jpg (http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=bbb516d91daee20498798694a42dd559&u=https%3A//postimg.org/image/my1s6ng3x/)


http://s30.postimg.org/r6yin0p75/Baz.jpg (http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=bbb516d91daee20498798694a42dd559&u=http%3A//postimage.org/)
Baz Fox likely has them all.
http://macgor.proboards.com/thread/34209/special-kiwi-denco-vee-twin

Here is a Drake JAwa
http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/o681/ludolphy/SRS%20Drake%201_zpsiklj8jyh.jpeg

[T.W.R]

I remember young Valentines reply to the article in the next issue he said something about the fins only being decrotive anyway.:msn-wink:
His father had designed the way the finger rockers works after he had said he wanted to do the 5 valve.

Yeah he said something similar in the 3rd to last paragraph....."He stressed their fitting was for aesthetics rather than cooling purposes"

[guyhockley]

Drake 4v conversion - "

http://cybermotorcycle.com/archives/speedwaybikes/drake.htm. (no pictures though)

These should be the pictures from the original page.

Doesn't have the Drake, but there's a german website that covers some of the same stuff that the Speedway Workshop site did. Google translate, maybe?

http://www.bahnsporttechnik.de/

[guyhockley]

Thought you were allowed 6 pics per post?

[guyhockley]

The only pictures from the BVR page - not very good ones either.

The text read:

"The above Photo's show the BVR (Brian Valentine Racing) SOHC 5 Valve Weslake engine. The father of Brian is Ron Valentine the original designer of the very first Weslake engines.


After Otto Lantenhammer came with his prototype OHV 5 Valver, Brian decided that a SOHC system for the 5 valve should be much better. The engine was tested in a grasstrack bike and was very promising, but the project was stopped by the FIM because very shortly after the engine was tested, they came in with new regulations for speedway and longtrack racing.
The new rule stated that only engines with 4 Valves could be used in speedway and longtrack racing.


Many thanks to Ben Ludolphy from the Netherlands for supplying both the pictures and the information on this one."

[guyhockley]

I think there's a chapter about the BVRs in one of Vic Willoughby's books. I would go and look but it's cold and wet and the bookshelf is out in the workshop!
The Haynes museum is just up the road from us. They have an upstairs room which is dedicated to some bloke's private speedway and long track collection they inherited. It's really annoying! Stuff has been laid out very artistically, but with no context, order or information. Part of it is a row of engines from JAP to GM via various 4 valve conversions but in no sort of order and devoid of information.
(In my opinion) the rest of the museum is pretty much a waste of time, too...

https://www.haynesmotormuseum.com/the-collection/forshaw-speedway-collection

[guyhockley]

Not in a book in the workshop, in a folder on my hard drive!
The Godden GR500 (which also spawned a V-twin, I think?) is in "Winning Engines" by Vic Willoughby.
Also REG from Classic Racer.

[guyhockley]

Bit more REG

[guyhockley]

and finally.

[WilDun]

Guy,
REG was a very interesting machine, it just shows that no matter how good you might be as an engineer, the big boys of the establishment will just ignore you and eventually "starve" you out! (ie except for guys like him).
That's what happened initally to the Wright Brothers powered flight project in America and the same scenario slowed down development of Whittle's jet engine in Britain.
There is a bit of a mistake in the description of the crankshaft (under "Technical Marvel" heading), where it says that it was "Nitralloy" which is nitridable steel (and which it most probably was) - then it goes on to say that it was machined from a solid billet of HCN5 aluminium (doubt it!)
Other than that, a very good article!

and...... I really should be in bed!

UPDATE: - maybe he was referring to the rods when he mentioned aluminium.

[pete376403]

The valentine article mentions the banning of twin plug heads (as well as 5 valve heads) - I bought a J.A.P speedway motor from Bruce Abernethy (aka Abbo) many years ago - it had a twin plug head, the additional plug hole was between the pushrod tubes. I didnt get the special timing case/magneto platform though. It used to run two magnetos, one timed fractionally ahead (or behind) the other. Abbo said it made that motor unbeatable out of the starting gate (This would have been in the late 40's early 50's I guess). Sold all the J.A.P stuff to Harold Sergent when i switched to Jawa. Harold has a fairly good speedway museum in Fielding and he has a knack of finding rare things so he may now have the complete Abbo engine. He may also have the Drake / SRS /Offy engine as well.

[Grumph]

Abernethy was an old acquaintance of my father's. I was introduced to him at a Lady Wigram meeting where he was running I think a Cooper JAP.
I'm pretty sure the old man respected him as a trader/wheeler dealer, not necessarily as a rider. The twin plug JAP sounds like something he'd have tried.

Pity we've lost Geoff Mardon, he knew where a lot of that stuff was - and where it had come from.

I ran up against Sargent when I got roped into trying to get F500 cars going in the SI. He was providing a good Jawa for someone up north who was a regular winner. I simply prepared a couple of Suzuki 400/4 based engines that made way more HP than a Jawa could - and didn't weigh a lot more.
F500 seems to have died out now.

[husaberg]

The valentine article mentions the banning of twin plug heads (as well as 5 valve heads) - I bought a J.A.P speedway motor from Bruce Abernethy (aka Abbo) many years ago - it had a twin plug head, the additional plug hole was between the pushrod tubes. I didnt get the special timing case/magneto platform though. It used to run two magnetos, one timed fractionally ahead (or behind) the other. Abbo said it made that motor unbeatable out of the starting gate (This would have been in the late 40's early 50's I guess). Sold all the J.A.P stuff to Harold Sergent when i switched to Jawa. Harold has a fairly good speedway museum in Fielding and he has a knack of finding rare things so he may now have the complete Abbo engine. He may also have the Drake / SRS /Offy engine as well.

The Gold Top spec JAP's had twin cylinder slip rings on the mags and ran at 1/4 engine speed, they gained a HP (from memory) just from this mod. they needed careful stoning to achieve the same timing on each stroke.
They also had different cams ands springs compression Mahle pistons that outlasted the bores and they used to sleeve them and use the same pistons.
IMO Twin plugs are a bandaid for what was a poor initial combustion chamber design.
Bevel Ducatis, when converted to twin plugs, appear to have the second plug in the Cylinder (due to the acute angle)
334048

[WilDun]

Bevel Ducatis when converved to twin plugs appear to have the second one in the Cylinder (due to the acute angle)

Husa - Not quite sure what you mean there.

[husaberg]

Husa - Not quite sure what you mean there.

Have a look at the picture, plus my spelling correction:innocent:

[Grumph]

Have a look at the picture, plus my spelling correction:innocent:

That's a 250 I think - and the plug is almost horizontal but still in the chamber.
On the 450 there's enough room to slide a 10mm plug in around the side of the bevel tower.

And yes, that 450 had to use twin plugs as it was on alky and the combustion chamber shape was badly compromised...I was stuck with a piston the owner had ordered and had no input into crown shape.

[husaberg]

That's a 250 I think - and the plug is almost horizontal but still in the chamber.
On the 450 there's enough room to slide a 10mm plug in around the side of the bevel tower.

And yes, that 450 had to use twin plugs as it was on alky and the combustion chamber shape was badly compromised...I was stuck with a piston the owner had ordered and had no input into crown shape.

Yeah i realise its just the look, but the first time i seen one of Bruno Spaggiani bikes in pics i did wonder where the heck it was.
those Gold top JAPS had the valves and the cylinders filed to prevent them clashing on overlap and with the outside edge of the cylinder. (Like a big valve commando)
The Speedway JAPS are a prefect example of the poms resting on their laurels, failing to move with the times and spend a tiny little bit of the money they made on retooling and redesigning a better engine instead they gave their directors new Jags every year and just tarting up what was a 1930's design.

1960's JAP and Ducati combustion chambers were not a patch on the BSA combustion chamber design.

i was looking for pic and found this.
As i am pretty sure he is currently dead though, so the pricing and waiting times might be a bit off.
http://www.mezporting.com/page2.html

[WilDun]

Have a look at the picture, plus my spelling correction:innocent:

Ah yes, ahem - maybe I should go to Specsavers (where everyone gets a bargain) - or is that The Warehouse? and get another pair of glasses or even look for my other glasses (lost)! :o

[Grumph]

Historically, the big problem with going to twin plug for a race engine was that if you fouled one, you lost a lot of power.
This is because with twin plugs the ignition can be pulled back as much as 4 - 5 degrees. Go back to single plug at that timing
and you've lost a lot of power...
As better ignitions became common it was a viable proposition again - then head shape development made it largely redundant.

The engine that has me puzzled though is the BMW/Rotax 650 which as std has 2 plugs - and most tuners add another one as well.
But it's a very basic 4 valve chamber with no odd cavities to explain the need for more than one plug...
I did a big bore version for a local BEARS racer in a Bimota chassis. Left it at 2 plugs but would have liked to try it with just one.

[Frits Overmars]

the big problem with going to twin plug for a race engine was that if you fouled one, you lost a lot of power.Wouldn't you lose even more power when you foul the plug in a single-plug engine?

[husaberg]

Wouldn't you lose even more power when you foul the plug in a single-plug engine?


Historically, the big problem with going to twin plug for a race engine was that if you fouled one, you lost a lot of power.
This is because with twin plugs the ignition can be pulled back as much as 4 - 5 degrees. Go back to single plug at that timing
and you've lost a lot of power...
As better ignitions became common it was a viable proposition again - then head shape development made it largely redundant.

The engine that has me puzzled though is the BMW/Rotax 650 which as std has 2 plugs - and most tuners add another one as well.
But it's a very basic 4 valve chamber with no odd cavities to explain the need for more than one plug...
I did a big bore version for a local BEARS racer in a Bimota chassis. Left it at 2 plugs but would have liked to try it with just one.
Pretty sure one of those big bore singles rotax engines they made in the mid 90's had three plugs std.
The Rotax/BMW that David Morris developed for some reason also had an offset combustion chamber. I think that version was only 2 plugs though.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3920/14374368440_66218361fc_b.jpg (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjC7JH0r5jYAhUK2LwKHYuiDqUQjRwIBw&url=%2Furl%3Fsa%3Di%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26 source%3Dimages%26cd%3D%26cad%3Drja%26uact%3D8%26v ed%3D0ahUKEwjLhJDtr5jYAhXH2LwKHa3fBaIQjRwIBw%26url %3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.flickr.com%252Fphotos%2 52F125877583%2540N04%252F14374368440%26psig%3DAOvV aw2rdiM9yzLRUyj2jkCb4b4J%26ust%3D1513851876472893&psig=AOvVaw2rdiM9yzLRUyj2jkCb4b4J&ust=1513851876472893)

[guyhockley]

The Speedway JAPS are a prefect example of the poms resting on their laurels, failing to move with the times and spend a tiny little bit of the money they made on retooling and redesigning a better engine instead they gave their directors new Jags every year and just tarting up what was a 1930's design.

1960's JAP and Ducati combustion chambers were not a patch on the BSA combustion chamber design.

One of those "what might have been" articles the british press love. I've read elsewhere that the BSA was miles off the pace.

[guyhockley]

Historically, the big problem with going to twin plug for a race engine was that if you fouled one, you lost a lot of power.
This is because with twin plugs the ignition can be pulled back as much as 4 - 5 degrees. Go back to single plug at that timing
and you've lost a lot of power...
As better ignitions became common it was a viable proposition again - then head shape development made it largely redundant.

One of my first jobs as an apprentice was helping to twin plug a couple of cylinder heads. Not for performance, though, it was a VW 1200 for a plane!


The engine that has me puzzled though is the BMW/Rotax 650 which as std has 2 plugs - and most tuners add another one as well.
But it's a very basic 4 valve chamber with no odd cavities to explain the need for more than one plug...
I did a big bore version for a local BEARS racer in a Bimota chassis. Left it at 2 plugs but would have liked to try it with just one.

Wonder if the second plug is something to do with emissions? Adding a third one is probably just psychological - people like symmetry. Think Aprilia used the same basic engine with a 5 valve head - that could do with all the plugs you could squeese in?
Saw an interesting french supermono that took a bit of head scratching. Rotax motor, air-cooled cylinder, water-cooled head but it had the intake cam lifted and very down-draught inlet. No idea if he changed valve angles. Bike also had an airbox feed through the headstock, first time I'd seen that.

[Grumph]

Wouldn't you lose even more power when you foul the plug in a single-plug engine?

Quite true of course Frits - but a twin plug 4T single will keep running on one plug albeit a lot slower...

On the British race engines of the time at somewhere like the IOM, the rider then had the dilemma, do I stop and change plugs or carry on at a slower pace...

[Grumph]

One of my first jobs as an apprentice was helping to twin plug a couple of cylinder heads. Not for performance, though, it was a VW 1200 for a plane!

My father decided to take up flying in his mid 60's. At one of his first post flight social cuppa's he had to explain to a group of tutors exactly why you did a mag drop pre flight...They'd always done it because they were taught to.



Wonder if the second plug is something to do with emissions? Adding a third one is probably just psychological - people like symmetry. Think Aprilia used the same basic engine with a 5 valve head - that could do with all the plugs you could squeese in?
Saw an interesting french supermono that took a bit of head scratching. Rotax motor, air-cooled cylinder, water-cooled head but it had the intake cam lifted and very down-draught inlet. No idea if he changed valve angles. Bike also had an airbox feed through the headstock, first time I'd seen that.

The big bore BMW eventually cracked the oversize liner. Even though we'd made the top flange locate on the inner diameter of the water jacket and thus a stiffer barrel than the OE arrangement. I'd heard that they gave head gasket probs as a big bore cos the unsupported liner moved around...
It did make very good power though.

[T.W.R]

A slight digression from the context of the thread but a worthwhile read to where the minds were in 66.
A discussion panel comprising of Phil Vincent, Jack Williams, Steve Lancefield, & Bob Gayler and what the put forth to an audience at Bromley Technical College.

Wont upload in order :facepalm:

[Frits Overmars]

a worthwhile read to where the minds were in 66. A discussion panel comprising of Phil Vincent, Jack Williams, Steve Lancefield, & Bob Gayler... at Bromley Technical College.Nice reaction to the question, what sort of engine the above specialists would like to work on, given a free choice.
Jack Williams, best known for his development of the 350 cc AJS 7R four-stroke single, named a 250 cc two-stroke four :D.

[husaberg]

Nice reaction to the question, what sort of engine the above specialists would like to work on, given a free choice.
Jack Williams, best known for his development of the 350 cc AJS 7R four-stroke single, named a 250 cc two-stroke four :D.
Jack asked management for a flow bench to develop the 7R he was told unless it was made by AJS or the AMC parent company it was not going to happen.
He resorted to using a spraygun and some dye and blotting paper in the inlet to track and map the airflow.
he latter became that disinchanted with the company that went on (with a substainal drop in pay) work for Dr Joe at EMC to learn about two strokes. (although that last bit in hindsight might have been peter?)

[WilDun]

1966 was really the time (as far as motorcycles were concerned) that Britain finally realised that it had lost it's way and these guys wanted to do something radical to counter Japan. Vincent (an Aussie I believe) was responsible for some great innovations, Jack Williams seems to have been a methodical plodder who did everything thoroughly but never really got the chance to use his talents properly. Steve Lancefield was well known as a tuner and his bikes were always immaculately turned out. I wasn't really familiar with Bob Gayler though.

I guess that talk was a bit of a swansong and really they were grasping at straws, their masters having left them to it on the sinking shio!
Then, in those days we äll thought that the two stroke was the way forward - look what has happened to that idea when politics stepped in and "scuppered" it, so really it's now a "sunken" ship, except for a few strong swimmers I guess.

Jack Williams (around 1972 I think) tried to go it alone and built a 250cc four (four stroke) but it really didn't have a chance - there was nothing radical about it and I think it was intended to be a production racer like the 7R was in the fifties.
I did actually see it in the flesh at the Earls Court show but it disappeared from the scene after that - I wasn't impressed with the appearence of the bike and the chances of laying it over without tearing the pipes off were zero! - dunno what they were thinking!
Does anyone remember that?- Husa, got any photos?

[Grumph]

Nice reaction to the question, what sort of engine the above specialists would like to work on, given a free choice.
Jack Williams, best known for his development of the 350 cc AJS 7R four-stroke single, named a 250 cc two-stroke four :D.

As Will says, by '66 the tide had turned - and it probably gave rise to the saying that inside every fourstroke tuner, there's a twostroke tuner waiting for an opportunity...

But earlier, as i've posted before, at a club night around '59 -'60, when George Todd the very well known Bantam tuner was asked how to make a Bantam quicker,
he replied "convert it to OHV" and resumed puffing his pipe...

[WilDun]

around '59 -'60, when George Todd the very well known Bantam tuner was asked how to make a Bantam quicker, .........he replied "convert it to OHV" and resumed puffing his pipe...

Having said that, many people have had a lot of fun screwing more power from the old Bantam than it's real designers (at DKW) could ever have imagined - even I (in my youthful mad naive tuning days) managed to achieve over 75 mph on one with three speed gearbox and all! You revved it really hard, dropped it into the next gear and hoped like hell that it hadn't dropped below the rev band.
....and I did use George Todd's famous 12:1 head!
Much the same fun as the bucket guys are having today, all good fun so long as everyone has similar machinery - KISS remember!

However, it is human nature to try and complicate and improve stuff too and that's good fun as well.
Some like riding, some like engineering and the two can work together - even better when both attitudes are combined in the same person, not always possible, as in my case! but a lot of the bucketeers fit this profile ...... all good fun! :) :niceone:

[Michael Moore]

WilDun, that's the KRM 350 that Peter's father was involved with:

http://cybermotorcycle.com/euro/wikig/KRM.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jap8-OAB0Ak/UdIVJAisAyI/AAAAAAAAJSA/JjhpKRiQ2lA/s1600/worldbeater.JPG

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/c/cc/Im201109-KRM1.jpg

334106

334107

[WilDun]

WilDun, that's the KRM 350 that Peter's father was involved with:

Yes Michael, that's exactly the one I was talking about! :niceone:

Kinda sad to see it go down, but at that time, it still needed a massive amount of development I do think that even MV were struggling against the two strokes and that wasn't even close to the MV, with 4 valves per cylinder - this I believe only had two!
I think Jack Williams was a gentleman and deserved a better result for his last project but I guess he was paid to produce what was wanted by others, however misguided!
But you do see what I meant by the exhaust clearence! (I'm sure that could have been addressed easily enough though).

[Frits Overmars]

However, it is human nature to try and complicate and improve stuff ...Then I should be asking myself if I'm human. I cannot for the life of me imagine that anyone in his right mind would deliberately complicate anything.
KISS, remember? Life is complicated enough as it is.
334111

[WilDun]

Then I should be asking myself if I'm human. I cannot for the life of me imagine that anyone in his right mind would deliberately complicate anything.
KISS, remember? Life is complicated enough as it is.

FRITS,
I certainly would agree with that, but assuming that we are in a similar age bracket, we no longer want anything complicated.
However it took a long complicated process to make us realize that the best answer to all our problems is simplicity!

That looks like a bloody complicated picture but I have just woken up and haven't found my glasses yet! :msn-wink:

[WilDun]

Just foumd my glasses! ........ goodness gracious, - I thought it was a sidecar race or something! :facepalm:

[Frits Overmars]

Just foumd my glasses! ........ goodness gracious, - I thought it was a sidecar race or something! :facepalm:You were not far off Will :p.
334144

[WilDun]

:o ........ :niceone: :laugh: :killingme :lol:

Yes I've often heard that sidecars will scare the pants off you!

Happy Christmas everyone!

[Grumph]

Bought a book in a secondhand shop for holiday reading...Granville Bradshaw - a flawed genius ? By Barry M Jones, Panther publishing, 2008.

And buried amongst the experiments and patents is the Bradshaw pulsation motor. As the pic shows, a trunk piston using a very short rod with mixture compressed to a high degree under the piston. As drawn, poor transfers - but plenty of well cooled exhaust area.
The crosshead at the top of the rod looks easier to seal and lube than the Ryger homologated arrangement too.
The project design is dated Autumn 1957.

I put it here as I'm going to say the Ryger speculation is pretty well over on ESE's thread - bar the shouting....

[WilDun]

Bought a book in a secondhand shop for holiday reading...Granville Bradshaw - a flawed genius ? By Barry M Jones, Panther publishing, 2008.

And buried amongst the experiments and patents is the Bradshaw pulsation motor. As the pic shows, a trunk piston using a very short rod with mixture compressed to a high degree under the piston. As drawn, poor transfers - but plenty of well cooled exhaust area.
The crosshead at the top of the rod looks easier to seal and lube than the Ryger homologated arrangement too.
The project design is dated Autumn 1957.
I put it here as I'm going to say the Ryger speculation is pretty well over on ESE's thread - bar the shouting....

Interesting design!
Difference between this and the Ryger is that this was just design exercise (a dream) whereas the Ryger was somebody's dream which unfortunately was thrown in at the deep end and didn't become a reality.
Looking at them, both suffer from a conrod which I believe is much too short, but could be improved, and excessive height which could also be improved on.
Perhaps Bradshaw was a genius, but he is a glaring example of someone who forgot about or ignored the KISS principle. (eg his toroidal engine).
I didn't read the book but i think he had at least as many failures as successes!
Sez I! :rolleyes:

[Grumph]

It was more than a design exercise. Prototypes ran and the design was hawked around the UK motor trade as was Bradshaw's usual policy.
The prototypes appear to have been possibly twins - he was aiming at the small car market.
It's a bit simpler than the Ryger in some ways - the bottom end is petroil lubed via the "timed" ventilation holes and full roller bearing.
He apparently ran into uneven running at points in the rpm band - poor scavenging due to a form of crossflow scavenging but without a deflector to aim the flow upwards.
It was certainly viable with some more development, nothing in it mechanically is beyond the manufacturing or matallurgy of the period.

I was amused to read that he never made a fortune from his engine work - but in the late 1920's he was pretty well a millionaire from design, manufacture and licencing of gambling machines....Then that company got caught up in what we'd now recognise as a Ponzi scheme run by a financier and Bradshaw lost the lot.

[WilDun]

I should have read the book before I said anything! :o :laugh:

Guess this thread is good for finding out about this sort of stuff in a leisurely fashion instead of the speculation and controversy of the big Ryger debate and the pressure to get it performing in a certain time!

So it looks like Bradshaw wasn't afraid to make a mistake or two! (and that is a good thing in my opinion ) but I'm still not convinced about the use of short conrods though, or even the need for one!
I wonder if there might be a couple of examples lying around somewhere in the UK or Europe, not recognised as being important which could be restored or copied just to find out.

[Grumph]

His last efforts were around a toroidal rotary engine. Again prototypes got built and ran. I'd need to see an animation to understand how it works but basically curved pistons chase each other around a circular bore track.
The bit that caught my eye was how they machined the curved pistons and the ring cylinder bores. The bores are in two case halves each with a circular track of half circle section. Bolted up, you've got a full circle, round bore.
Swarfie or Flettner could probably do the bores now on CNC but I do wonder about doing the curved pistons - I thought it was clever...

[WilDun]

His last efforts were around a toroidal rotary engine. Again prototypes got built and ran. I'd need to see an animation to understand how it works but basically curved pistons chase each other around a circular bore track.
The bit that caught my eye was how they machined the curved pistons and the ring cylinder bores. The bores are in two case halves each with a circular track of half circle section. Bolted up, you've got a full circle, round bore.
Swarfie or Flettner could probably do the bores now on CNC but I do wonder about doing the curved pistons - I thought it was clever...

Yes, I have thought and thought about that for years too and have come up with several "solutions" but a pretty daunting task as you say, especially the pistons! then the centrifugal forces acting on those pistons etc - so my last thoughts were, forget it!
Must say he was game in trying to change the established ideas on IC engines (as was Felix Wankel) - both set themselves a pretty daunting task in trying to convince manufacturers that it was worthwhile.

This conclusion of course is only from the point of view of a machinist!

[Grumph]

Yes, I have thought and thought about that for years too and have come up with several "solutions" but a pretty daunting task as you say, especially the pistons! then the centrifugal forces acting on those pistons etc - so my last thoughts were, forget it!
Must say he was game in trying to change the established ideas on IC engines (as was Felix Wankel) - both set themselves a pretty daunting task in trying to convince manufacturers that it was worthwhile.

This conclusion of course is only from the point of view of a machinist!

Yeah, the poor guy who had to make some of his stuff....One of the UK writers said of him that he would have gone a long way further if he'd been in partnership with an old fashioned Scots type engineer with the background to make anything...

What stopped the toroidal engine was the problem that the wankel was having at the same time - ignition. Lucas apparently gave him a prototype electronic ignition so spark rate wasn't a problem - but finding a plug that could stand the high rate of firing was. I think NSU and Mazda went to surface gap plugs around the time Bradshaw died.

[WilDun]

....One of the UK writers said of him that he would have gone a long way further if he'd been in partnership with an old fashioned Scots type engineer with the background to make anything...

Like Rolls & Royce, one a rich entrepreneur and the other a back street garage mechanic! and "bingo" ! (so I've heard anyway).

I believe that another thing which stopped the toroidal engine was the fact that the good old tried and true four and six cylinder inline engines were doing well (and still had really only begun development), also at a time when everyone was recovering from the war and money wasn't as plentiful for building anything revolutionary.

[guyhockley]

His last efforts were around a toroidal rotary engine. Again prototypes got built and ran. I'd need to see an animation to understand how it works but basically curved pistons chase each other around a circular bore track.
The bit that caught my eye was how they machined the curved pistons and the ring cylinder bores. The bores are in two case halves each with a circular track of half circle section. Bolted up, you've got a full circle, round bore.
Swarfie or Flettner could probably do the bores now on CNC but I do wonder about doing the curved pistons - I thought it was clever...
One of my jobs as an apprentice involved a rotating tool holder like that but it was to machine a dome into perspex blocks for a water sampling device.
The piston machining idea is great, though!