Flag?

[eldog]

I am surprised that proposed flag doesn't have a rugby ball and goal post on it:shutup:

reminds me about that old NZ song "Rugby Racing and Beer"

[caspernz]

I am surprised that proposed flag doesn't have a rugby ball and goal post on it:shutup:

And a Steinlager logo as a watermark :facepalm::innocent::shit:

[Voltaire]

The sports guys say they like to see the silver fern waving, as sport is just another business I would thought they liked seeing the money being waved.

[FROSTY]

And again--I can think of 28 million reasons NOT to go to this trouble and expense

[Pixie]

I hope he brings back the three handed handshake. that wasn't awkward at all:2thumbsup

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/D---vjDqdIc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

315366
Yes, the three handed handshake reminded me of those natural history documentaries where they show half a dozen male frogs trying to mate with a female.

Also, shouldn't that Rugby News cover read "Fudge Packer"?

[Banditbandit]

And again--I can think of 28 million reasons NOT to go to this trouble and expense

Yes - I can too ... but they will spend the money on the referendum and the flag no matter what - so you might as well GET OUT AND VOTE !!!

[ellipsis]

...I had a three hour wait/wander around our city while waiting for a new exhaust being fitted...everywhere I looked it seemed there was a corporate or business logo that incorporated that stylised fern...to me it is now a bland and beaten up symbol, much like high vis in our broken town...

[Ocean1]

Yes - I can too ... but they will spend the money on the referendum and the flag no matter what - so you might as well GET OUT AND VOTE !!!

And then, has there ever been a cent of taxpayer money spent that everyone was happy about?

Only, you don't have to look very far to see that published negative reaction to any spend is usually unrelated to overall opinion. Fuck, negative reaction to ANYTHING is overrepresented EVERYWHERE, just trawl back through this thread and compare comments to poll data.

Which begs the question: what sort of job would we, the taxpayers do if we could vote on every aspect of national budget? Not a very fucking good one I suspect...

[Banditbandit]

...I had a three hour wait/wander around our city while waiting for a new exhaust being fitted...everywhere I looked it seemed there was a corporate or business logo that incorporated that stylised fern...to me it is now a bland and beaten up symbol, much like high vis in our broken town...

I prefer to see it showing just how pervasive and essentially New Zealand the silver fern is - all the more reason to put it on our flag.





Which begs the question: what sort of job would we, the taxpayers do if we could vote on every aspect of national budget? Not a very fucking good one I suspect...

We would never do or achieve anything ... I suspect because the majority vote would always be for the status quo ... or never able to reach a conclusion on what the question should be - let alone what the answer should be ...

[Ocean1]

...I had a three hour wait/wander around our city while waiting for a new exhaust being fitted...everywhere I looked it seemed there was a corporate or business logo that incorporated that stylised fern...to me it is now a bland and beaten up symbol, much like high vis in our broken town...

Isn't it at least as accurate to say it's popularity is representative of people's acceptance of it as a national symbol?

And I wonder how those suggesting a fern is some sort of "corporate logo" would get on were it possible to suggest that to any one of the thousands of Kiwis buried under it overseas. Be a bloody nose or two I suspect.

[Shaun Harris]

WTF is a new flag going to do for our country anyway FFS. It is just PC Bollocks again. Fuck, even Fontera has become as bad as our government these days with miss management

[awa355]

The Aussies will refer to that 'white feather' every time they beat us at sports <_<

[Ocean1]

The Aussies will refer to that 'white feather' every time they beat us at sports <_<

Why do we care?

Besides, there's no reason today why it shouldn't be silver.

[James Deuce]

I only care about the flag inasmuch as I don't want it to be the one with the black elephant being kicked by the white, curly-toed boot.

[Katman]

An article from over 18 months ago.

http://www.listener.co.nz/commentary/editorial/editorial-just-do-it/

[oneofsix]

What an awesome choice; the Labour and National party logos combined, the kicking elephants (thanks for the discription James ), the AB and All Whites sysmbols combined, or the ABs combined with the National party logo. :woohoo: :wacko:

[Blackbird]

An article from over 18 months ago.

http://www.listener.co.nz/commentary/editorial/editorial-just-do-it/

Yep :niceone: Needs to be driven to get people to engage - I was in that category :rolleyes: . It's no big deal, we simply vote for our personal option in the referendum.... that's the nature of democracy. Five years or less down the track, everyone will wonder what the fuss was all about. In the meantime, life goes on as normal - we go riding and enjoy life. Apart from the glass half empty types, that is :laugh:

[Grumph]

Why do we care?

Besides, there's no reason today why it shouldn't be silver.

Silver fern farms will love that - may even have it copyrighted already.

[husaberg]

Silver fern farms will love that - may even have it copyrighted already.

Silver fern Farms who were (PPCS until a few years ago )looks like it getting partially sold to the Chinese will they care?
http://www.odt.co.nz/news/business/353999/silver-fern-farms-silent-china-report
http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/winston-peters-chinese-interested-in-silver-fern-farms-201508290

[Banditbandit]

Silver fern farms will love that - may even have it copyrighted already.

They can't copyright it - the WAI262 (Flora and Fauna) claim to the Waitangi Tribunal means the silver fern belongs to us Maori - but we will let everyone use it ... we are magnanimous like that ...

[Erelyes]

Fuck this flag shit - like we can afford this kind of folly right now - talk about priorities!

The spending on the flag is fuck all in the context of things. If you are serious about 'spending the money on better things' then we can up the tax rate by 0.04% for a single year (total tax take 61.5bn, referenda cost 26m). :laugh:

Added to which the majority of the 'spend' is going straight into an SOE anyway (NZ Post), by and large hiring NZ staff, suffering as a result of the decline in people posting stuff.

Shit, compared to the amount of money the govt has given to bail out businesses (1.6bn to South Canterbury Finance).... across 50 years this is nothing.

Or the MPs could simply vote on a bill without bothering to consult the public, to save a few bob.


:facepalm: - meanwhile back at the TPPA public debate? :shutup: - Oh it's secret! :shifty:

Yeah, that's not so cool.


And then, has there ever been a cent of taxpayer money spent that everyone was happy about?

Fucking A. How easy it is to criticise, with a thinly veiled overtone of 'I could do better'. Tall poppy alive and well?


WTF is a new flag going to do for our country anyway FFS.

Exactly what people make of it. Pity that some people are determined to have a shit attitude. If we keep our current flag, the gummint's fucking things up. If we change the flag, the gummint's fucking things up. If there's five Mondays in a month, fucking gummint's fault.

[Voltaire]

The knock on effect will be sales of new flags, stamps, sports shirts etc. Then Iwi will jump up and down about using the silver fern and the Southern Cross :lol:

[husaberg]

The knock on effect will be sales of new flags, stamps, sports shirts etc. Then Iwi will jump up and down about using the silver fern and the Southern Cross :lol:

It will be a new form of the never-ending story of colonial oppression.

[slofox]

I just saw results of a UMR poll on the flag thing.

Relevant quote..."53% had the red, white and blue Silver Fern and the Southern Cross in the top four and 51% the black, white and blue Silver Fern and the Southern Cross."

Of the two, given our rate of assault, battery, wife beating, child beating, cop beating, inmate beating etc etc, I'd say the black white and blue is the better choice of the two...wouldn't you? :whistle:

[Pixie]

The RSA are telling people to spoil the first ballot by not choosing one of the four.
They are idiots,playing into the hands of the flag change proponents, the correct action is to vote for the worst of the four,the one that will not stand a chance against the current flag.
That choice would be the black and white monkey tail.

[Madness]

The RSA are telling people to spoil the first ballot by not choosing one of the four.
They are idiots,playing into the hands of the flag change proponents, the correct action is to vote for the worst of the four,the one that will not stand a chance against the current flag.
That choice would be the black and white monkey tail.

This. What's the worst that can happen?

[bogan]

The RSA are telling people to spoil the first ballot by not choosing one of the four.
They are idiots,playing into the hands of the flag change proponents, the correct action is to vote for the worst of the four,the one that will not stand a chance against the current flag.
That choice would be the black and white monkey tail.

Why would not choosing spoil it?

Your 'correct' action seems contrary to what they fought for.

[Swoop]

I note that the cat-exterminator's design is now being foisted upon us.
Halfwit Morgan commissioned a designer to come up with "something", and that appears to be misguidedly put forward as "the final solution to the flag question".

Will the madness never end?



Hmmm...
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[schrodingers cat]

Riding back to chch today and I see some person(s) have put up 6 flag poles and have full size versions of the proposed 'new' designs as well as our current one.

I'm in the 'why bother' with regards to change but did think the red peak thingy looked better than the rugby themed efforts.
Seeing them for real made me realise how fucking dreadful our 'choices' are

Dear John Key, please try harder. 2/10 or to use the new method of assessment, not yet achieved.

[Tazz]

Riding back to chch today and I see some person(s) have put up 6 flag poles and have full size versions of the proposed 'new' designs as well as our current one.

I'm in the 'why bother' with regards to change but did think the red peak thingy looked better than the rugby themed efforts.
Seeing them for real made me realise how fucking dreadful our 'choices' are

Dear John Key, please try harder. 2/10 or to use the new method of assessment, not yet achieved.

Yeah I saw 6 on three flag poles on the south side of Amberley on the way up yesterday. Recognised the red peak design before the others.
Kinda cool the property owners put them all up like that, I assume to inspire a bit of chat about it. all

[WNJ]

Personally I will be voting for the current flag the others just seem a bit like a sports team logo,

[Akzle]

i'll snap a pic of my homies up o.t,
fly the confederated tribes flag, and underneath, the "new zealand flag".... Upside down.
mana ora.

[Oakie]

Riding back to chch today and I see some person(s) have put up 6 flag poles and have full size versions of the proposed 'new' designs as well as our current one.

Saw that yesterday riding back from lunch at Copper Road. (Just an excuse for a ride really)

Saw my favoured flag and still think it looks good.

[gsxr]

Looks like the decision had already been made before the first referendum
The new flags have already been produced.


People can now contact the Flag Consideration Project and be sent two flags for free, the current flag, and the black, white and blue silver fern, as long as it survives any push from late ballots.

The two flags will be available at no cost to those who have the ability to fly them together in a publicly visible location.

That would ideally mean two separate flag poles that can be seen if a person is standing in one place.

Recipients of the free flags will also be asked to fly the current New Zealand flag that is supplied, so the two flags are of the same quality and dimension.

The flags can be sent out after last night's preliminary result is officially confirmed on Tuesday.

[tri boy]

The new flag will be the Red, White, and Blue one.MHO
And Chinese companies are already using it on NZ produced goods.

[Erelyes]

Looks like the decision had already been made before the first referendum

Yes, because making display of the suggested flags illegal would be so sensible. :yawn:


The new flag will be the Red, White, and Blue one.MHO
And Chinese companies are already using it on NZ produced goods.

You've not seen the referendum result then. Black/blue Lockwood design won it on preferential voting (even though it was #1 for less people).

[Tazz]

Disappointing. I will be voting to keep our current one.


The new flag will be the Red, White, and Blue one.MHO
And Chinese companies are already using it on NZ produced goods.

The design is from the early 2000's and has been mistakenly (or otherwise?) used on goods since then. Have you ever looked at Chinese knock offs? 9 times out of 10 there are glaring mistakes, so it's not surprising some of them are dumb enough to get wrong flag too :laugh:

[PrincessBandit]

I'll also be voting to keep the current one. As for all the moaning about how much it looks like the Aussie one - we had ours first, and anyway who fricken cares (besides John Key, who keeps whining about how he ends up standing in front of the Australian one) that other people mix them up? We know our flag. The fact that other nations can't tell the difference is of no interest to me.

[Ocean1]

I'll also be voting to keep the current one. As for all the moaning about how much it looks like the Aussie one - we had ours first, and anyway who fricken cares (besides John Key, who keeps whining about how he ends up standing in front of the Australian one) that other people mix them up? We know our flag. The fact that other nations can't tell the difference is of no interest to me.

Well at least after the final vote we can be said to have chosen our flag, whatever it is.

Which is certainly not the case now. We didn't chose it and it's certainly not ours, it's a defaced British effort foisted on us like most other colonies.

The correct symbol for NZ is that we gave ourselves, the one our people have been buried under since well before the current abomination became "official".

[Akzle]

The correct symbol for NZ is that we gave ourselves, the one our people have been buried under since well before the current abomination became "official".

you mean.... The confederated tribes flag of 1836?

[Akzle]

Well at least after the final vote we can be said to have chosen our flag, whatever it is.

just like we chose to be governed by white cun//


o, wait on...

[Ocean1]

you mean.... The confederated tribes flag of 1836?

Well I suppose I could bury you under one if you like.

And that'd be one...

[Akzle]

Well I suppose I could bury you under one if you like.

And that'd be one...

sorry. You used the words "we" and "ourselves"...
I should have known you meant "cracker ass motherufcken yurp cunts"

[Ocean1]

sorry. You used the words "we" and "ourselves"...
I should have known you meant "cracker ass motherufcken yurp cunts"

Us. New Zealanders.

Entirely understandable mistake, however from someone who considers only himself.

Cunt.

[Jin]

Well I suppose I could bury you under one if you like.

And that'd be one...
The only good one is a dead one...

[Oakie]

Well I preferred the similar flag with the red corner but I'll happily vote for the selected one ... my second choice.
Happy to see the back of the Union Jack on our flag anyway.

[bogan]

Well I preferred the similar flag with the red corner but I'll happily vote for the selected one ... my second choice.
Happy to see the back of the Union Jack on our flag anyway.

I went for red peak as it's a icon design rather than logo; but I think the plebs missed the rational behind that. Will still vote to change though I think.

[nerrrd]

That whole 'no one can tell the difference between our flag and Australia's' argument drives me nuts...they might like to compare the Irish, Italian and French flags, for instance...Lithuania and Germany...Romania and Belgium etc etc.

That fern is poorly rendered at best, and the relationship between the different shapes and colours is clumsy and unbalanced; regardless of the result I'll be sticking with the old one until something stronger comes along.

IMHO this process should have been undertaken over several years, maybe a decade even, before they settled on a final design.

[PrincessBandit]

That whole 'no one can tell the difference between our flag and Australia's' argument drives me nuts...they might like to compare the Irish, Italian and French flags, for instance...Lithuania and Germany...Romania and Belgium etc etc.


That fern is poorly rendered at best, and the relationship between the different shapes and colours is clumsy and unbalanced; regardless of the result I'll be sticking with the old one until something stronger comes along.

IMHO this process should have been undertaken over several years, maybe a decade even, before they settled on a final design.

Excellent first point. Final sentence - I agree, but I don't even want to imagine what that would have cost.

[ellipsis]

...I've only ever ventured out under a skull and crossbones...where's my option...

[Grumph]

...I've only ever ventured out under a skull and crossbones...where's my option...

Still your option, flagpole at the gate, fly what you like...

As you'd know, when racing, yachts should fly a racing flag. We always flew the skull and crossbones. Very appropriate given the old man's style on the helm... A well known ChCh lawyer flew a flag showing a briefcase wrapped in red tape....The possibilites are endless.

[Laava]

I think the referendums are the wrong way around too and would like to have seen our made in nz kiwi incl on a flag somehow. Nothing says kiwis like a kiwi.
http://blog.transformerdesign.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/BuyNZ-logo.jpg

[Voltaire]

I think the referendums are the wrong way around too and would like to have seen our made in nz kiwi incl on a flag somehow. Nothing says kiwis like a kiwi.
http://blog.transformerdesign.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/BuyNZ-logo.jpg


They put it on Made In NZ products as they too are rare and not often seen by the public, and will soon be extinct without intervention.:rolleyes:

When are we having the one for the new Anthem, my suggestion would be Blam Blam Blams " No Depression in New Zealand"

[PrincessBandit]

They put it on Made In NZ products as they too are rare and not often seen by the public, and will soon be extinct without intervention.:rolleyes:

When are we having the one for the new Anthem, my suggestion would be Blam Blam Blams " No Depression in New Zealand"

Blam Blam Blam - good times, good memories! Hahaha, that is still a great song nearly 35 years later.

[Madness]

Blam Blam Blams " No Depression in New Zealand"

Add Th' Dudes "Bliss" and something from Howard Morrison and by crikey, we almost have a referendum. It'll be expensive to run though considering the reluctance to allow electronic voting - they'll have to post every registered voter a CD, cassette and vinyl recording of all the options. Unless of course we first hold a referendum on the preferred medium that the referendum anthem options are supplied to voters on. Fuck, I'm onto it.

[Katman]

Add Th' Dudes "Bliss" and something from Howard Morrison and by crikey, we almost have a referendum. It'll be expensive to run though considering the reluctance to allow electronic voting - they'll have to post every registered voter a CD, cassette and vinyl recording of all the options. Unless of course we first hold a referendum on the preferred medium that the referendum anthem options are supplied to voters on. Fuck, I'm onto it.

Won't someone please think of the Treaty.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DQLUygS0IAQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[MarkH]

Well I preferred the similar flag with the red corner but I'll happily vote for the selected one ... my second choice.
Happy to see the back of the Union Jack on our flag anyway.

I'm also keen on a flag change - fuckin' hate our current flag!
The current flag has nothing to do with the country I was born and raised in!
British colony in the southern hemisphere is all the current flag shows - well, I'm not British, I'm a New Zealander!

The winning design is the one I chose for #2, I can live with that.


I think the referendums are the wrong way around too[/IMG]

How the hell are they the wrong way around?
I couldn't answer the 2nd referendum without knowing the results of the first one!
Do you want to change the flag? I dunno, depends on what to mate!
They have done it the correct way around IMO, the other way just wouldn't make sense.

If the current flag is so great (majority at this point seem to think so) then why don't we use it?
Why do our Olympic athletes have a silver fern on their chests?
Why do our commonwealth games athletes use the silver fern?
Why did our rugby team go as far as trademarking a silver fern logo?
Why do our fallen soldiers buried in Europe have their graves marked with a silver fern?
Why do NZers on their OEs use the fern & the kiwi and not the flag? (probably because they get sick of "what part of aussie are you from mate?")
Our netball team is the silver ferns, our women's rugby team are the black ferns.
Why are so many keen on keeping the flag that so few actually use?

If we change our flag then we will have a flag chosen by the people of this country, how many other countries could say the same?
I hope the new flag gains some support and gets the vote, I know I'll be voting to change!

[ellipsis]

I'm also keen on a flag change - fuckin' hate our current flag!
The current flag has nothing to do with the country I was born and raised in!
British colony in the southern hemisphere is all the current flag shows - well, I'm not British, I'm a New Zealander!

The winning design is the one I chose for #2, I can live with that.



How the hell are they the wrong way around?
I couldn't answer the 2nd referendum without knowing the results of the first one!
Do you want to change the flag? I dunno, depends on what to mate!
They have done it the correct way around IMO, the other way just wouldn't make sense.

If the current flag is so great (majority at this point seem to think so) then why don't we use it?
Why do our Olympic athletes have a silver fern on their chests?
Why do our commonwealth games athletes use the silver fern?
Why did our rugby team go as far as trademarking a silver fern logo?
Why do our fallen soldiers buried in Europe have their graves marked with a silver fern?
Why do NZers on their OEs use the fern & the kiwi and not the flag? (probably because they get sick of "what part of aussie are you from mate?")
Our netball team is the silver ferns, our women's rugby team are the black ferns.
Why are so many keen on keeping the flag that so few actually use?

If we change our flag then we will have a flag chosen by the people of this country, how many other countries could say the same?
I hope the new flag gains some support and gets the vote, I know I'll be voting to change!

...too many fucking questions man...

[Oakie]

I went for red peak as it's a icon design rather than logo;

I've heard that 'logo' comment quite a few times but it's important to remember that it started becoming a logo AFTER it's recognition as something NZish (on servicemen's gravestones for instance). It became a 'logo' for NZ because it had already been recognised as a NZ thing.

[nerrrd]

I'm also keen on a flag change - fuckin' hate our current flag!
The current flag has nothing to do with the country I was born and raised in!
British colony in the southern hemisphere is all the current flag shows - well, I'm not British, I'm a New Zealander!

Cool, but that's like saying Maori culture has nothing to do with it either - it's all part of our history, whether you like it or not. Wonder how they feel about this design, can't say I've heard much, but then they've got a much better flag of their own already (tino rangatiratanga flag), so why would they care.


The winning design is the one I chose for #2, I can live with that.

Good for you, the one with red in the corner instead of black is a slight improvement over this one.


How the hell are they the wrong way around?
I couldn't answer the 2nd referendum without knowing the results of the first one!
Do you want to change the flag? I dunno, depends on what to mate!
They have done it the correct way around IMO, the other way just wouldn't make sense.

True that; but there should have been more choice in the first place. Throw all the designs open to a public vote, not just to 12 people on a committee, and give everyone plenty of time to think about it.


If the current flag is so great (majority at this point seem to think so) then why don't we use it?
Why do our Olympic athletes have a silver fern on their chests?
Why do our commonwealth games athletes use the silver fern?
Why did our rugby team go as far as trademarking a silver fern logo?
Why do our fallen soldiers buried in Europe have their graves marked with a silver fern?
Why do NZers on their OEs use the fern & the kiwi and not the flag? (probably because they get sick of "what part of aussie are you from mate?")
Our netball team is the silver ferns, our women's rugby team are the black ferns.
Why are so many keen on keeping the flag that so few actually use?

All true, and all perfectly good points. All very different shapes and sizes, also. I'm not anti-fern, I'm just anti THIS fern, which looks like a cheap knock-off of the Rugby Union/NZ Cricket type logo, and doesn't suit the proportions of a rectangular flag. I'd almost be prepared to pay the RFU/NZ Cricket royalties to replace this with either of theirs, maybe on a simple square flag, like the Swiss one.


If we change our flag then we will have a flag chosen by the people of this country, how many other countries could say the same?
I hope the new flag gains some support and gets the vote, I know I'll be voting to change!

Actually it's been chosen by 12 people (see above). Hobson's choice for the rest of us.

Of course this is all purely my opinion, and I only get one vote.

[Tazz]

can't say I've heard much, but then they've got a much better flag of their own already (tino rangatiratanga flag), so why would they care.

hear hear! The united tribes flag was a bit aesthetically poos, but I really like the look of the replacement Maori flag. I mean just look at these two together. To my eye the Maori flag is hands down, and I'm sorry to get technical on my descriptive terms, but it is hands down less 'spasticated to the eye'.


http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/files/styles/fullsize/public/images/maori-national-flag.gif?itok=2vUNwQv5

http://www.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/5/0/2/x/h/image.gallery.galleryLandscape.600x400.150321.png/1432606958356.jpg

[Oakie]

hear hear! The united tribes flag was a bit aesthetically poos, but I really like the look of the replacement Maori flag. I mean just look at these two together. To my eye the Maori flag is hands down, and I'm sorry to get technical on my descriptive terms, but it is hands down less 'spasticated to the eye'.

Nice enough but what does it represent? Just looks to me like a warning flag for the beach "There's a tsunami on the way". On the other hand, the silver fern - the Southern Cross ... that speaks to me.

[Tazz]

Nice enough but what does it represent? Just looks to me like a warning flag for the beach "There's a tsunami on the way". On the other hand, the silver fern - the Southern Cross ... that speaks to me.

Looking at it that way when we put them together we have a tsunami warning with a fish skeleton and some starfish chilling out in a rock pool ;)

[Oakie]

Looking at it that way when we put them together and we have a tsunami warning with a fish skeleton and some starfish chilling out in a rock pool ;)

Ha ha. A win on points to you for that one good sir!

[MarkH]

Nice enough but what does it represent? Just looks to me like a warning flag for the beach "There's a tsunami on the way". On the other hand, the silver fern - the Southern Cross ... that speaks to me.

I mostly agree, although I would have been happy to ditch the southern cross. To me the southern cross says 'southern hemisphere' which is a bit too general and also there are a number of other countries flags that also have the southern cross on them.
But clearly the voters want a southern cross, the fern without it only came in 4th and like nerrrd I only get to have one vote.


Looking at it that way when we put them together we have a tsunami warning with a fish skeleton and some starfish chilling out in a rock pool ;)

Well, what's wrong with a fish skeleton & some starfish? After all we are an island nation surrounded by sea, kinda makes them appropriate to us in a way!
At least the design we get to vote on in March is not very similar to any other nations flag, it would stand out well as a flag for our nation.
Obviously the Maori flag is already taken so I don't see the country has any right to appropriate that one to use as the nations flag.

[Voltaire]

They should have declared a republic first and got rid of the Queen and her tribe of hangers on based on a medieval system from 12 000 miles away....but hang on ...that would

mean the end to Knighthoods and all the other trappings that the National Govt and all their landowning, Jobs-for-the-boys cronies love.

Flags are just a distraction to the real issues of selling NZ by the square metre to the highest bidder.:baby:

[Tazz]

At least the design we get to vote on in March is not very similar to any other nations flag, it would stand out well as a flag for our nation.
Obviously the Maori flag is already taken so I don't see the country has any right to appropriate that one to use as the nations flag.

Yes it is.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Canada_flag_halifax_9_-04.JPG

If you want to be first to throw a leaf on a flag you've missed the boat :laugh:

I never advocated using the Maori flag, I just said it was a design that was pleasing to the eye.

Due to how we all ended up here, the Southern Cross has more of a link between early Polynesian and later Western Settlers than you give it credit me thinks. Doesn't mean it has to be on our flag, but historically speaking it's been rather important :bleh: I relate to that more than a sportsing logo, though I do love other fern and koru designs out there (not flag ones, just in general).

Ah well, it is what it is, but I don't think it will change and I won't be voting for it to either.

Now if we'd rolled with the laser eyed Kiwi....

[MarkH]

Yes it is.

If you want to be first to throw a leaf on a flag you've missed the boat :laugh:


If you think our proposed flag is similar enough to the Canadian flag so that some may be confused and mistake one for the other then I doubt any flag would be unique enough for you!
I personally can't see that the proposed flag looks even slightly similar to the Canadian one and I can't think of any nations flag that looks vaguely close enough to cause any confusion between the two.

On the other hand - our current flag looks an awful lot like Australia's flag. We can't vote to make the Aussies change theirs, but we can vote to change ours and I don't believe that the Aussies would turn around and change their flag to be almost like our new one.

I'll vote to change flags because I like the proposed one more than the current one and I'm not sure we'll get another chance to change flags in my lifetime.

[Tazz]

If you think our proposed flag is similar enough to the Canadian flag so that some may be confused and mistake one for the other then I doubt any flag would be unique enough for you!
I personally can't see that the proposed flag looks even slightly similar to the Canadian one and I can't think of any nations flag that looks vaguely close enough to cause any confusion between the two.

On the other hand - our current flag looks an awful lot like Australia's flag. We can't vote to make the Aussies change theirs, but we can vote to change ours and I don't believe that the Aussies would turn around and change their flag to be almost like our new one.

I'll vote to change flags because I like the proposed one more than the current one and I'm not sure we'll get another chance to change flags in my lifetime.

No visually similar, but concept. Unlike punga, maples are a pretty simple beast to deal with though :laugh:

To me a national flag is not really an area where being exceptionally different and unnecessary busy or complicated for the sake of it is a good thing.

Being similar to Aus is a little annoying but we've both managed OK for over 100 years now. It's better than using the Union Jack like we did before then.

[Erelyes]

While we're picking holes in designs, if we were going from a blank slate our current flag wouldn't have even got a look in the door. 'Dafuq are you putting a Union Jack on it for?'

The 'it looks like a logo' argument is ridiculous. So do many flags, as they share similar design objectives. I think logo design probably owes more to vexillology than vice versa.

[Voltaire]

While we're picking holes in designs, if we were going from a blank slate our current flag wouldn't have even got a look in the door. 'Dafuq are you putting a Union Jack on it for?'

The 'it looks like a logo' argument is ridiculous. So do many flags, as they share similar design objectives. I think logo design probably owes more to vexillology than vice versa.

Blank Canvas....hmmmm

Why do we drive on the left when mostly people drive on the right.

Christmas....what a dumb name for a month of shopping, eating and drinking

Dunedin....sounds like a mix of Dundee and Edinborough.... Suggest its put back to its original name of Otakou.

English.... lets get rid of that...

[Erelyes]

Why do we drive on the left when mostly people drive on the right.

I know right. It makes high-fiving passing riders a touch more difficult driving on the left.

[oldrider]

Blank Canvas....hmmmm...

Action/reaction - Instead of being confused with Australia we might fade into oblivion - example - Chatham Islands part of New Zealand - how would anyone know? :confused:

[Akzle]

Blank Canvas....hmmmm

Why do we drive on the left when mostly people drive on the right.

Christmas....what a dumb name for a month of shopping, eating and drinking

Dunedin....sounds like a mix of Dundee and Edinborough.... Suggest its put back to its original name of Otakou.

English.... lets get rid of that...

i'd vote for ya.
Except that driving thing.

[husaberg]

Blank Canvas....hmmmm

Why do we drive on the left when mostly people drive on the right.

Christmas....what a dumb name for a month of shopping, eating and drinking

Dunedin....sounds like a mix of Dundee and Edinborough.... Suggest its put back to its original name of Otakou.

English.... lets get rid of that...

The Chinese and Indian's drive on the left so we will be the majority eventually..........
Whoops the Chinese don't.............
The Indonesians do though.

[Moi]

Blank Canvas....hmmmm

Why do we drive on the left when mostly people drive on the right.

Christmas....what a dumb name for a month of shopping, eating and drinking

Dunedin....sounds like a mix of Dundee and Edinborough.... Suggest its put back to its original name of Otakou.

English.... lets get rid of that...

Driving on the right is thanks to Napoleon...

Christmas, as you describe, thanks to Plutus and Mammon...

Dunedin is the old version of Edinburgh...

English could be replaced with? - Portuguese, Georgian, Czech, Albanian...

[Berries]

English could be replaced with? - Portuguese, Georgian, Czech, Albanian...
How about proper English for a start?

[Moi]

How about proper English for a start?

Wot ya saying mate? Me English not good?? I's could ova ask 'itcher for 'is 'elp...

[ellipsis]

...what the fuck are you people debating...John Keys fucked up childhood or his self appointed job of salesman, sorry saviour, of his tiny domain that dribbling bank dependent fuckwits ceded him the deeds...morons...get a fucking life...

[Ocean1]

...what the fuck are you people debating...John Keys fucked up childhood or his self appointed job of salesman, sorry saviour, of his tiny domain that dribbling bank dependent fuckwits ceded him the deeds...morons...get a fucking life...

Whether we want a new flag and what it should be.

Sounds like you're debating something else.

[ellipsis]

Whether we want a new flag and what it should be.

Sounds like you're debating something else.

...Oh, ok...

[Stylo]

Looks like the winner of the tallest dwarf competition is ..... the black white and blue !

According to Media reports

[Oakie]

Looks like the winner of the tallest dwarf competition is ..... the black white and blue !

Gotta watch out for those dwarfs though. They'll head-butt you in the nuts!

[oldrider]

Just like MMP - the one TPTB (Key?) wanted all along! (Objective? - The removal of the Union Jack - remnant symbol of the once great British Empire!) :kick: . :shifty:

[Blackbird]

Just like MMP - the one TPTB (Key?) wanted all along! (Objective? - The removal of the Union Jack - remnant symbol of the once great British Empire!) :kick: . :shifty:

Fine by me (from a once Pom) :laugh:

[Voltaire]

Just like MMP - the one TPTB (Key?) wanted all along! (Objective? - The removal of the Union Jack - remnant symbol of the once great British Empire!) :kick: . :shifty:

We should be thankful it was not the Dutch or French who got to design the original flag.

[oldrider]

We should be thankful it was not the Dutch or French who got to design the original flag.

I am not anti British - I prefer to have kept the old flag - following WW2 Churchill's obligation for USA help (debt) was the destruction of the British Empire! :spanking:

I wonder why Key is so intent on the flag change? - What's in it for him? - What's in it for us? - Waste of money IMHO - (I will accept the new flag if it eventuates!)

[Gremlin]

I only voted for the black/blue one. I have no intention of voting for it next round.

Nothing wrong with the current one, although I do hold a British passport (only been there for 3 weeks in my life though).

[gsxr]

I am not anti British - I prefer to have kept the old flag - following WW2 Churchill's obligation for USA help (debt) was the destruction of the British Empire! :spanking:

I wonder why Key is so intent on the flag change? - What's in it for him? - What's in it for us? - Waste of money IMHO - (I will accept the new flag if it eventuates!)


The debt wasnt to the USA as such.
The USA is in debt to the Rothchilds Rockerfellers Morgan and to a lesser extent Lazard .
John Key worked for Merrill Lynch who control a large portion of world funds .
He is now just a puppet in their quest for one world government and we are merely pawns in the game

[Voltaire]

I am not anti British - I prefer to have kept the old flag - following WW2 Churchill's obligation for USA help (debt) was the destruction of the British Empire! :spanking:

I wonder why Key is so intent on the flag change? - What's in it for him? - What's in it for us? - Waste of money IMHO - (I will accept the new flag if it eventuates!)

I doubt if the British Flag means a lot to a lot of English these days, with the Irish having kicked them out after 800 of oppression and the Welsh and Scots wanting independence ....if they can keep all the useful bits.

[Oscar]

I doubt if the British Flag means a lot to a lot of English these days, with the Irish having kicked them out after 800 of oppression and the Welsh and Scots wanting independence ....if they can keep all the useful bits.

I'll think you'll find that the Scots had a fair bit to do with the oppression in Ireland.

[Ocean1]

I'll think you'll find that the Scots had a fair bit to do with the oppression in Ireland.

They started it. :bleh:

[gjm]

Sorry for resurrecting this, but it still pisses me off.

It took several rounds of vote re-evaluation (proportional representation) to finally get the blue and black flag into first place. It's a crap system, but it was laid down and described before voting started.

So now we have is a situation where just 43% of eligible voters bothered to register and vote. Under half the population have any interest in changing the flag.

Once votes were counted, none of the options got 50% of votes cast. This means no proposed new design got even 21% of eligible voters backing it.

Now we're going to have another vote on whether the current flag should be replaced with some black and blue hankie that (probably) less than 20% of the population want. (Incidentally, independent polls suggested less than 1 in 5 people want to change the current flag before voting commenced.)

Doesn't sound like value for $26M, does it? And anyone who says it isn't much money, whether in the grand scheme of things or not, can give me 1% of what is [I]actually[I] spent in this distracting debacle.

[oldrider]

Sorry for resurrecting this, but it still pisses me off.

It took several rounds of vote re-evaluation (proportional representation) to finally get the blue and black flag into first place. It's a crap system, but it was laid down and described before voting started.

So now we have is a situation where just 43% of eligible voters bothered to register and vote. Under half the population have any interest in changing the flag.

Once votes were counted, none of the options got 50% of votes cast. This means no proposed new design got even 21% of eligible voters backing it.

Now we're going to have another vote on whether the current flag should be replaced with some black and blue hankie that (probably) less than 20% of the population want. (Incidentally, independent polls suggested less than 1 in 5 people want to change the current flag before voting commenced.)

Doesn't sound like value for $26M, does it? And anyone who says it isn't much money, whether in the grand scheme of things or not, can give me 1% of what is [I]actually[I] spent in this distracting debacle.

Yes well you get your (sham) voting on the flag - but will you even get that on the TPPA? - (shsssh it's too secret to mention!) :shifty:

TPPA is being signed up next month! - In New Zealand! :eek: Bet you didn't know that! - Otago Daily Times this morning page 22 0f 23 small insignificant article. :whistle:

[MarkH]

Yes well you get your (sham) voting on the flag - but will you even get that on the TPPA?

In fact I believe that almost every nation's flag in the world (including our current one) were decided by the government, what other nation has let the people decide on their flag?

TBH I don't understand the complaints over the way the voting worked, a winner had to be decided and even though not enough wanted my first pick for it to be considered they did take into account my 2nd pick and it got chosen to be the one that goes up against the ghastly shitter we currently have for a flag.
In March I'll be voting to change to the new flag, I don't really know how many will also vote for it but I'd be willing to bet gjm $100 that it will be more than 20%.

[scumdog]

In fact I believe that almost every nation's flag in the world (including our current one) were decided by the government, what other nation has let the people decide on their flag?

TBH I don't understand the complaints over the way the voting worked, a winner had to be decided and even though not enough wanted my first pick for it to be considered they did take into account my 2nd pick and it got chosen to be the one that goes up against the ghastly shitter we currently have for a flag.
In March I'll be voting to change to the new flag, I don't really know how many will also vote for it but I'd be willing to bet gjm $100 that it will be more than 20%.

It seems my vote will cancel yours....

[Moi]

I am yet to be convinced by a coherent, considered, and well-reasoned argument that we need a new flag...

[JATZ]

I am yet to be convinced by a coherent, considered, and well-reasoned argument that we need a new flag...

Same :yes:


Yes well you get your (sham) voting on the flag - but will you even get that on the TPPA? - (shsssh it's too secret to mention!) :shifty:

TPPA is being signed up next month! - In New Zealand! :eek: Bet you didn't know that! - Otago Daily Times this morning page 22 0f 23 small insignificant article. :whistle:
Why was it buried in the bowels of the paper? I have my suspicions....
It's being signed here cause the general public are to apathetic to do anything about it. Should be a nice quiet get together for the scum involved though.

[Akzle]

It's being signed here cause the general public are to apathetic to do anything about it. Should be a nice quiet get together for the scum involved though.

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-burn-them-all-16.png

[Moi]

Who are you suggesting we burn?

[JATZ]

Who are you suggesting we burn?
THEM!! :gob:

[Madness]

It's being signed here cause the general public are to apathetic to do anything about it. Should be a nice quiet get together for the scum involved though.

Who's making the scones?

[Moi]

THEM!! :gob:

Shall we compare our lists of "THEM" later, hate to have duplications...

meantime, I'm off to gather faggots...

[mashman]

Don't have a flag at all as it promotes racial segregation... which is against at least 1 law. I'll not be breaking the law by voting for any flag.

[Moi]

Who's making the scones?

I'd suggest laxative chocolate chip cookies should also be on the afternoon tea table...

[Oakie]

I am yet to be convinced by a coherent, considered, and well-reasoned argument that we need a new flag...

Exactly the same could be said about keeping the old flag!

I was thinking about it on the ride home tonight and came to the conclusion that there is no right or wrong in this argument. Some people value tradition and others are happy to move on from old established things. Both views are valid ... no one is is wrong and in the end the majority will decide what happens. I think it will actually be very close now that everyone knows what is going head to head. 43% bothered to vote for change so I'd imagine many of those will still vote for change even if their preferred flag did not make it.

43% voting is about normal for a referendum, by-election or local body election. Can't read anything into that. Add that this referendum was only a preliminary with the main one still to come and it's quite a respectable result.

Will the $26mill be wasted if we don't change? No. It means that we've had the conversation and at least we'll get the issue buried one way or another. Won't arise again in my lifetime.

I just hope everyone who grizzles either way now takes the trouble to vote and thus earn the right to grizzle afterwards should they lose.

I've not delved into the Flag Consideration Committee's info but am wondering (for the sake of the RSA types) if the legislation, when drafted should the new flag win, should say there is no problem with the old flag continuing to be flown alongside the new flag when it being done in a memorial way (like ANZAC parades or outside of RSAs etc).

[Madness]

Jo Glenn reckons "fuckit"

Interesting to see what he'd rather spend the money on.

http://www.maoritelevision.com/news/national/veteran-vows-stop-attending-anzac-day-celebrations-if-nz-flag-changes

[MarkH]

It seems my vote will cancel yours....

You like the old flag, really?
TBH I don't really understand anyone preferring the old flag, I just can't see how it makes a good flag to represent our country.

[Moi]

... I just can't see how it makes a good flag to represent our country.

You want to give your reasons for this belief?

[bogan]

Sorry for resurrecting this, but it still pisses me off.

It took several rounds of vote re-evaluation (proportional representation) to finally get the blue and black flag into first place. It's a crap system, but it was laid down and described before voting started.

So now we have is a situation where just 43% of eligible voters bothered to register and vote. Under half the population have any interest in changing the flag.

Once votes were counted, none of the options got 50% of votes cast. This means no proposed new design got even 21% of eligible voters backing it.

Now we're going to have another vote on whether the current flag should be replaced with some black and blue hankie that (probably) less than 20% of the population want. (Incidentally, independent polls suggested less than 1 in 5 people want to change the current flag before voting commenced.)

Doesn't sound like value for $26M, does it? And anyone who says it isn't much money, whether in the grand scheme of things or not, can give me 1% of what is [I]actually[I] spent in this distracting debacle.

See, the flaw in your logic is assuming the apathetic have a view worth noting. They don't. If somebody doesn't turn up to vote, they don't get counted, it's that simple. That whole vote performed exactly as it was supposed to, and that it needed to.

Now the next vote offers a very simple question, and those to apathetic to answer it still won't have a say, so good fucking job. So we'll get a very simple answer, which reflects the will of the people.

I really don't see why so many fucking muppets are bitching about an effective democratic process; for fucks sake :facepalm:

[Ocean1]

I am yet to be convinced by a coherent, considered, and well-reasoned argument that we need a new flag...

Do it yourself: What does the current flag represent?

Job done, let's have the fucker gone.

[MarkH]

You want to give your reasons for this belief?

Well, sure - there is nothing on that flag that says 'New Zealand'.
You have the Union Jack, what does that say? UK colony?
There is the Southern Cross, what does that say? Southern Hemisphere?
Sorry, but I'm not a UK citizen (my ancestors may have been), I'm a New Zealander.
I'll admit to us being in the Southern Hemisphere, but then again that applies to so many other countries.
So yeah, I really do despise our current flag - I feel that its time really should be up.

At least the proposed replacement flag has a fern on it. Since there are so many NZers buried overseas with the silver fern on their gravestones as well as extensive use of that symbol for our sports people (Olympic athletes, Commonwealth athletes, etc) I am pretty happy to have that a part of our flag. To me the silver fern says New Zealand.
For whom does the Union Jack say New Zealand? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Moi]

Well, sure - there is nothing on that flag that says 'New Zealand'.
You have the Union Jack, what does that say? UK colony?
There is the Southern Cross, what does that say? Southern Hemisphere?
Sorry, but I'm not a UK citizen (my ancestors may have been), I'm a New Zealander.
I'll admit to us being in the Southern Hemisphere, but then again that applies to so many other countries.
So yeah, I really do despise our current flag - I feel that its time really should be up.

At least the proposed replacement flag has a fern on it. Since there are so many NZers buried overseas with the silver fern on their gravestones as well as extensive use of that symbol for our sports people (Olympic athletes, Commonwealth athletes, etc) I am pretty happy to have that a part of our flag. To me the silver fern says New Zealand.
For whom does the Union Jack say New Zealand? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

There is no Union Jack on our flag... there is a Union Flag...
The Southern Cross was the star constellation that guided the first inhabitants of these islands...
I am a third generation New Zealander but I also recognise our ancestry... those from England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Eire, other parts of Europe and, of course, those who came before through the South Pacific...

"Despise" is a very strong word... a word I'd use with great caution...

A fern... ferns are not exclusive to New Zealand... yes, the silver fern [Cyathea dealbata] is used by sports teams and many others but does that mean it should be on our flag?

The other aspect that needs to be considered is does the proposed flag obey the rules of vexillology? It needs to perform numerous functions such as Ensigns of the different military.

So, sorry but your argument has not persuaded me that we need a new flag...

[Moi]

Do it yourself: What does the current flag represent?

Job done, let's have the fucker gone.

I don't see the present flag as "broken"... You see I am not persuaded by the hype presented by the media, the commentators, the "personalities", the government and by anyone else who is swayed by what appears to me to be a logo... or the "smoke-screen" that the flag debate appears to have been... that's how I see it...

As I say, I'm still awaiting a reasoned argument to change the flag... not some knee jerk or mass hysteric reaction...

[gjm]

Why am I against this?

$26m.

I assume all those in favour, the 20% perhaps, will be putting their hands in their pockets to reimburse me and the apathetic 80% for our tax money that has been spent on this?

Besides, I like the current flag. I will be voting. For the current flag. And if it wins, I anticipate the 20% will become apathetic about the spending of the money, saying (again) it is 'only' $26m.

[Oakie]

I don't see the present flag as "broken"... You see I am not persuaded by the hype presented by the media, the commentators, the "personalities", the government and by anyone else who is swayed by what appears to me to be a logo... or the "smoke-screen" that the flag debate appears to have been... that's how I see it...

Many people have referred to the Silver Fern as a 'logo' as if it's something bad. A logo is "a graphic mark, emblem, or symbol commonly used .... to aid and promote instant public recognition". (thank you Wiki). Surely that's what a flag should do?

Many Kiwi organisations use the Silver Fern as a logo and it is probably the most recognised 'logo' in respect of our country. Why shouldn't it be on the flag?

[oneofsix]

Many people have referred to the Silver Fern as a 'logo' as if it's something bad. A logo is "a graphic mark, emblem, or symbol commonly used .... to aid and promote instant public recognition". (thank you Wiki). Surely that's what a flag should do?

Many Kiwi organisations use the Silver Fern as a logo and it is probably the most recognised 'logo' in respect of our country. Why shouldn't it be on the flag?

A logo is a good thing for a company for those reasons, a country is more than a company and very different, it doesn't require a shallow logo to be changed at whim, look at now many times Telecom has changed theirs. A country needs an enduring symbol.

[Ocean1]

I don't see the present flag as "broken"... You see I am not persuaded by the hype presented by the media, the commentators, the "personalities", the government and by anyone else who is swayed by what appears to me to be a logo... or the "smoke-screen" that the flag debate appears to have been... that's how I see it...

As I say, I'm still awaiting a reasoned argument to change the flag... not some knee jerk or mass hysteric reaction...

Maybe I've never been persuaded by the media, etc that accepted that our existing flag was anything other than the nominal colonial nod it is.

Nobody asked us if we wanted it. It resembles many other flags similarly issued to British colonies. I don't agree that it adequately represents the ethnic origins of our people and I don't believe that's it's the function of a flag to describe where some of us came from anyway. Who we all are now, rather than where some of us came from.

And I think that in the rush to oppose the initiative of this govt on any convenient grounds the possibility to rationally select a better option is getting drowned in exactly that knee jerk and mass hysteria you claim drives the attempt to offer an alternative. Ask yourself, by way of a simple litmus test, whether the same people complaining about the process would be quite as vociferous if the proposal had been seen under a Labour watch.

Sans politics: I don't like the old colonial imposition, and personally I think the proposed alternative offers something we can actually say we chose, is far from ugly, bears some relevant iconography and above all is something I'd personally be happy to be seen as representing my country.

[Ocean1]

Why am I against this?

$26m.

I assume all those in favour, the 20% perhaps, will be putting their hands in their pockets to reimburse me and the apathetic 80% for our tax money that has been spent on this?

Besides, I like the current flag. I will be voting. For the current flag. And if it wins, I anticipate the 20% will become apathetic about the spending of the money, saying (again) it is 'only' $26m.

Good grief, on that basis every man-jack in the country will have far more than $26 million reasons to object to any number of budget initiatives.

[gjm]

Good grief, on that basis every man-jack in the country will have far more than $26 million reasons to object to any number of budget initiatives.

Not if they aren't demonstrably a waste of time, effort, money and resource.

If - and it is if - the current flag is retained, will we have wasted $26m?

[MarkH]

There is no Union Jack on our flag... there is a Union Flag...

How does that make it any better?
Not really a very persuasive argument for the current flag there!
Let me just use google . . .

The Union Flag is the name of the flag of the United Kingdom, commonly called the Union Jack.

FFS, that is what you come up with? You correct my use of the term 'Union Jack' to suggest I should have used a term that the internet tells me is the same thing?
Are you perhaps some kind of idiot?


The Southern Cross was the star constellation that guided the first inhabitants of these islands...

I don't quite get your point. The Southern Cross was the star constellation that guided the first inhabitants to several southern hemisphere countries.
It is also a feature of quite a few flags. There is nothing unique to NZ about a constellation clearly visible to all of the southern hemisphere.
Also - this constellation will be on our flag regardless of how the referendum goes.
If you really think it should be part of our flag then you should just relax and not worry about that.


I am a third generation New Zealander but I also recognise our ancestry... those from England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Eire, other parts of Europe and, of course, those who came before through the South Pacific...

I don't know what this means. What are you trying to say? What does this have to do with the flag?


The other aspect that needs to be considered is does the proposed flag obey the rules of vexillology? It needs to perform numerous functions such as Ensigns of the different military.

What the hell are you on about now? Are you seriously trying to suggest the proposed flag would be against some rules that would mean it is not allowed?
You seem to be grasping at straws here. I would suggest to you that if over half the people that vote in the March referendum want the new flag then it WILL become the new NZ flag and your fictitious 'rules of vexillology' wont suddenly appear from their current non-existence and deny us the flag we choose.


As I say, I'm still awaiting a reasoned argument to change the flag... not some knee jerk or mass hysteric reaction...

What the hell is this shit?
What knee jerk or mass hysteric reaction are you referring to? Reaction to what exactly? Are you under some impression that an event happened and a flag change is a reaction to that event - what event are you thinking of here?
What reasoned argument is required?
We could just decide as a country that our flag should be changed to one that better reflects our current identity and choose to change to that flag, why would we possibly require anything more than that?

We need nothing more than to decide if most of us want to keep the current flag or change to the proposed flag, if we decide to keep the existing one then that is all there is to it, the current flag would then remain as the NZ flag for several decades at least. If we decide we prefer the proposed flag then we will change the flag and that new flag will be our nations flag for several decades at least.
Too many stupid bullshit arguments keep appearing when it should just be as simple as 'which flag to we prefer to represent our country'.

[MarkH]

A country needs an enduring symbol.

How long have we had the Silver Fern as a national symbol? Google tells me it has been well over a century, sounds like an enduring symbol to me.

[MarkH]

Why am I against this?

$26m.


Maybe we should change the flag then, that would give us something for the money wouldn't it?
Or maybe you should just get over this, especially considering that the money has been spent and there is nothing you can do about that aspect now.

[bogan]

Why am I against this?

$26m.

I assume all those in favour, the 20% perhaps, will be putting their hands in their pockets to reimburse me and the apathetic 80% for our tax money that has been spent on this?

Besides, I like the current flag. I will be voting. For the current flag. And if it wins, I anticipate the 20% will become apathetic about the spending of the money, saying (again) it is 'only' $26m.

The cost of democracy, would you prefer that JK just changed it to one he liked? 26mil is about the price of a coffee per person. So it's demonstrably not just about the money. What is it actually about for you?


Not if they aren't demonstrably a waste of time, effort, money and resource.

If - and it is if - the current flag is retained, will we have wasted $26m?

No, because the question will have been answered. If it was demonstrably a waste of time, effort, money etc then that would have been demonstrated, surely?

[Moi]

How does that make it any better?
Not really a very persuasive argument for the current flag there!
Let me just use google . . .

FFS, that is what you come up with? You correct my use of the term 'Union Jack' to suggest I should have used a term that the internet tells me is the same thing?
Are you perhaps some kind of idiot?

Thank you for your assessment of my mental state...


I don't quite get your point. The Southern Cross was the star constellation that guided the first inhabitants to several southern hemisphere countries.
It is also a feature of quite a few flags. There is nothing unique to NZ about a constellation clearly visible to all of the southern hemisphere.
Also - this constellation will be on our flag regardless of how the referendum goes.
If you really think it should be part of our flag then you should just relax and not worry about that.

I don't know what this means. What are you trying to say? What does this have to do with the flag?

I was replying to what you had said...



What the hell are you on about now? Are you seriously trying to suggest the proposed flag would be against some rules that would mean it is not allowed?
You seem to be grasping at straws here. I would suggest to you that if over half the people that vote in the March referendum want the new flag then it WILL become the new NZ flag and your fictitious 'rules of vexillology' wont suddenly appear from their current non-existence and deny us the flag we choose.

Perhaps you need to check what vexillology means... it is not fictitious...


What the hell is this shit?
What knee jerk or mass hysteric reaction are you referring to? Reaction to what exactly? Are you under some impression that an event happened and a flag change is a reaction to that event - what event are you thinking of here?
What reasoned argument is required?

Certainly more than you are giving...



We could just decide as a country that our flag should be changed to one that better reflects our current identity and choose to change to that flag, why would we possibly require anything more than that?

We need nothing more than to decide if most of us want to keep the current flag or change to the proposed flag, if we decide to keep the existing one then that is all there is to it, the current flag would then remain as the NZ flag for several decades at least. If we decide we prefer the proposed flag then we will change the flag and that new flag will be our nations flag for several decades at least.
Too many stupid bullshit arguments keep appearing when it should just be as simple as 'which flag to we prefer to represent our country'.

As I say, I am still awaiting a reasoned argument.

[Moi]

Maybe I've never been persuaded by the media, etc that accepted that our existing flag was anything other than the nominal colonial nod it is.

Nobody asked us if we wanted it. It resembles many other flags similarly issued to British colonies. I don't agree that it adequately represents the ethnic origins of our people and I don't believe that's it's the function of a flag to describe where some of us came from anyway. Who we all are now, rather than where some of us came from.

And I think that in the rush to oppose the initiative of this govt on any convenient grounds the possibility to rationally select a better option is getting drowned in exactly that knee jerk and mass hysteria you claim drives the attempt to offer an alternative. Ask yourself, by way of a simple litmus test, whether the same people complaining about the process would be quite as vociferous if the proposal had been seen under a Labour watch.

Sans politics: I don't like the old colonial imposition, and personally I think the proposed alternative offers something we can actually say we chose, is far from ugly, bears some relevant iconography and above all is something I'd personally be happy to be seen as representing my country.

You have your reasons as to why the flag should be changed, however, your reasons are not persuasive enough for me to support a change of flag.

[gjm]

As I say, I am still awaiting a reasoned argument.

Me too. Rather than a blah blah blah it's all OK.

It is a reaction JK wanted to be visible and seen to do something. TPPA is in secret (or was...) and took up a lot of time. He wanted to demonstrate VFM from his party, rather than extended silence while they sell us down the river to the highest bidder.

And it's just possible he's been successful. As with the GCSB shambles when he said "Kiwis are more worried about their private fishing quotas" (or something like that) he's proved it again. You're more worried about the flag than you are about the TPPA. (Has anyone, anywhere, said what a great idea the TPPA or similar agreements are, other than government muppet mouthpieces?)

This flag business is a distraction. It is a waste of money debating it. Why else would NZ be different to every other country in the world?

C'mon. Wake up.

And coffee? Seriously?? That $26m would have made a huge difference in a lot of useful areas. Instead, you've been suckered into thinking spending it was a good idea.

[MarkH]

Thank you for your assessment of my mental state...

I was replying to what you had said...

Perhaps you need to check what vexillology means... it is not fictitious...

Certainly more than you are giving...
As I say, I am still awaiting a reasoned argument.

And I'm awaiting for you to develop some reading comprehension skills!

You were replying to what I said?
Yes I was aware that was what you were doing, but that doesn't change my reply to your reply.
What I typed was me replying to what you said. (why do I think we are going in circles here?)

Did I say that vexillology was fictitious? I did not!
I never saw this list of vexillology rules that you suggest the new flag would violate, you seem to have forgotten to back up your argument.
I would suggest that the rules that prohibit the proposed flag are fictitious, but feel free to post up a link to those rules if you want to prove me wrong.

You can keep waiting for what you would consider a reasoned argument, as I said - no such thing is required. We can just decide to keep the current flag or to change to another one. We don't even have to have a reason beyond liking one more than the other. We make a choice and we get what has been chosen, why would we possibly care if you are satisfied with the reasoning or not?

[MarkH]

I haven't even seen an answer to what I asked a few pages back:

Why do our Olympic athletes have a silver fern on their chests?
Why do our commonwealth games athletes use the silver fern?
Why did our rugby team go as far as trademarking a silver fern logo?
Why do our fallen soldiers buried in Europe have their graves marked with a silver fern?
Why do NZers on their OEs use the fern & the kiwi and not the flag? (probably because they get sick of "what part of aussie are you from mate?")
Our netball team is the silver ferns, our women's rugby team are the black ferns.
Why are so many keen on keeping the flag that so few actually use?

I've seen sporting teams of other countries with their national flag on their chests, isn't it interesting that our sports teams don't do this. We just don't use our flag except where only a nations flag is acceptable, if we have any option we seem to just go to a kiwi or a fern (or sometimes a koru which is also the same fern).
Then people say that they like our current flag and we shouldn't change it. For my whole life I've seen evidence that New Zealanders DON'T like our flag and we don't want to use it.

When Canadians travel abroad it isn't unusual for them to put their flag on their baggage.
When people from the USA travel abroad they often put their flag on their baggage, at least until they realise that many people in the world hate Americans and then the smart ones switch to using the Canadian flag.
Many poms use the Union Jack to proudly say they are British!
New Zealanders traveling abroad very rarely use the NZ flag and any that start with that flag change to something else, you can only take so many times being asked if you are Australian!
So, New Zealanders proudly flying their nations flag - nah, not so much.

What if we changed to the proposed flag?
I think then there would be more New Zealanders traveling abroad that would be happy to display our flag. It would no longer be the embarrassing flag we currently have.

[bogan]

Me too. Rather than a blah blah blah it's all OK.

It is a reaction JK wanted to be visible and seen to do something. TPPA is in secret (or was...) and took up a lot of time. He wanted to demonstrate VFM from his party, rather than extended silence while they sell us down the river to the highest bidder.

And it's just possible he's been successful. As with the GCSB shambles when he said "Kiwis are more worried about their private fishing quotas" (or something like that) he's proved it again. You're more worried about the flag than you are about the TPPA. (Has anyone, anywhere, said what a great idea the TPPA or similar agreements are, other than government muppet mouthpieces?)

This flag business is a distraction. It is a waste of money debating it. Why else would NZ be different to every other country in the world?

C'mon. Wake up.

And coffee? Seriously?? That $26m would have made a huge difference in a lot of useful areas. Instead, you've been suckered into thinking spending it was a good idea.

Then isn't you getting worked up about it playing directly into his hands?

What do you mean NZ different to every other country in the world? others have had flag referendums too, changed it, and never looked back.

You asked for reimbursement, to which I pointed out it was fuck all you'd be reimbursed. Do you really have no concept of just what a drop in the bucket 26m is in terms of running a country? Spending it is a good idea, regardless of the outcome; it's called democracy. Same reason we spend all that money having those election things. It think it's you who is trying to do the suckering, to bypass the democratic process because the will of the people might not be the one you want.

[gjm]

The Welsh have a dragon on their flag, and a national symbol is the daffodil.
The Scots have a white cross on a blue background. Their international emblem is the thistle.
The Australians (over on the west island) have their flag, yet their rugby team wears a wallaby.
The South Africans have quite an attractive flag (imho) and their sporting emblem is a springbok.
Britain has the Union Flag, but the sporting emblem is the lion.

There's many more such examples.

None of them, not one, has ever considered using any of these emblems as their national flag. I suggest the fern-on-the-flag argument is, based on that context, invalid.

[bogan]

The Welsh have a dragon on their flag, and a national symbol is the daffodil.
The Scots have a white cross on a blue background. Their international emblem is the thistle.
The Australians (over on the west island) have their flag, yet their rugby team wears a wallaby.
The South Africans have quite an attractive flag (imho) and their sporting emblem is a springbok.
Britain has the Union Flag, but the sporting emblem is the lion.

There's many more such examples.

None of them, not one, has ever considered using any of these emblems as their national flag. I suggest the fern-on-the-flag argument is, based on that context, invalid.

Which is why Red Peak should have been chosen, more of a symbol from simpler geometry is common as a flag.

But that's just my opinion, and I'll be happy with the outcome of the democratic referendum no matter what, because the outcome is much less important than the process.

So by all means argue your choice of flag, but don't spout that bullshit about us not having the right to choose.

[Moi]

And I'm awaiting for you to develop some reading comprehension skills!

Again, thank you for the personal attack...



Did I say that vexillology was fictitious? I did not!

May I quote you...

... new NZ flag and your fictitious 'rules of vexillology' wont suddenly appear from their current non-existence and deny us the flag we choose.


I never saw this list of vexillology rules that you suggest the new flag would violate, you seem to have forgotten to back up your argument.
I would suggest that the rules that prohibit the proposed flag are fictitious, but feel free to post up a link to those rules if you want to prove me wrong.

You have just reiterated the "fictitious" statement...

You could look here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexillology) and here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_vexillology)


You can keep waiting for what you would consider a reasoned argument, as I said - no such thing is required.

Wrong. If you are prepared to vote for something or against something then you need to have a reasoned argument for either supporting it or not. You may be happy with what has been presented so far as reasons to change the flag, but I am not, hence I am waiting for a reasoned argument...


We can just decide to keep the current flag or to change to another one. We don't even have to have a reason beyond liking one more than the other. We make a choice and we get what has been chosen, why would we possibly care if you are satisfied with the reasoning or not?

If that is the reason you are happy with, then so be it. Perhaps it has to do with making an informed choice...

[gjm]

Then isn't you getting worked up about it playing directly into his hands?
No... I'm well aware of what is going on. Sadly the majority are more interested in the waste of $26m than the much bigger picture.


What do you mean NZ different to every other country in the world? others have had flag referendums too, changed it, and never looked back.
I'm happy to be corrected. I wasn't aware of all that many flag changes at all, let alone other national flag referendums.


You asked for reimbursement, to which I pointed out it was fuck all you'd be reimbursed. Do you really have no concept of just what a drop in the bucket 26m is in terms of running a country? Spending it is a good idea, regardless of the outcome; it's called democracy. Same reason we spend all that money having those election things. It think it's you who is trying to do the suckering, to bypass the democratic process because the will of the people might not be the one you want.
Do you have any idea what a huge difference $26m would make if carefully spent elsewhere?

And don't forget - the $26m is potentially the tip of a flag change iceberg. The cost of the referendums will decide what. It will not implement anything, which will also be at the taxpayer's expense.

[bogan]

No... I'm well aware of what is going on. Sadly the majority are more interested in the waste of $26m than the much bigger picture.


I'm happy to be corrected. I wasn't aware of all that many flag changes at all, let alone other national flag referendums.


Do you have any idea what a huge difference $26m would make if carefully spent elsewhere?

And don't forget - the $26m is potentially the tip of a flag change iceberg. The cost of the referendums will decide what. It will not implement anything, which will also be at the taxpayer's expense.

Which is why I keep pointing out it's not a waste, and 26m isn't much; shouldn't you point out the same to promote interest in the bigger picture instead of whinging about the 'waste' and thus detracting focus from the bigger picture?

Canada is the main one.

Yeh, which is why my yearly taxes come to a little bit more than just the price of one cup of coffee.

Good thing they had the referendum then eh! otherwise we might have just changed and spent the whole iceberg... Don't forget the benefits for having a better flag to us as a country though eh, we do a lot of tourism remember.

[Berries]

At least the proposed replacement flag has a fern on it.
It's a feather to the rest of the planet.

[gjm]

Canada is the main one.
That was 50 years ago, when Canada din't actually have a national flag (they had an ensign). 80 per cent of Canadians wanted a change, and 60 per cent of those wanted a maple leaf on it. See any discrepancy in the numbers?


Don't forget the benefits for having a better flag to us as a country though eh, we do a lot of tourism remember.
You've been drinking JK's Koolaid! ;) That was his line. Doesn't necessarily mean it is incorrect and I'll be honest - if he is right it'll be a bitter pill (for me) to swallow.

[Oakie]

T 26mil is about the price of a coffee per person.

Wow. Wish I'd come up with that. Kudos!

[Ocean1]

Not if they aren't demonstrably a waste of time, effort, money and resource.

If - and it is if - the current flag is retained, will we have wasted $26m?

In who's opinion is this spending a waste of time, effort etc?

'Cause there isn't a dime of taxpayer's money that actually generates a profit.

[bogan]

That was 50 years ago, when Canada din't actually have a national flag (they had an ensign). 80 per cent of Canadians wanted a change, and 60 per cent of those wanted a maple leaf on it. See any discrepancy in the numbers?


You've been drinking JK's Koolaid! ;) That was his line. Doesn't necessarily mean it is incorrect and I'll be honest - if he is right it'll be a bitter pill (for me) to swallow.

Our flag looks just like their ensign though (with the obvious differences ofc), so it's only a technical difference between the name of it. Again, apathetic 'votes' can get fucked, whether it be 20% or 60% is irrelevant (and the actual poll for that has not been conducted). More than 60% want a fern on ours, so, no, not a lot of discrepancy in numbers there.

It makes sense though.

[Tazz]

I haven't even seen an answer to what I asked a few pages back:

Why do our Olympic athletes have a silver fern on their chests?
Why do our commonwealth games athletes use the silver fern?
Why did our rugby team go as far as trademarking a silver fern logo?
Why do our fallen soldiers buried in Europe have their graves marked with a silver fern?
Why do NZers on their OEs use the fern & the kiwi and not the flag? (probably because they get sick of "what part of aussie are you from mate?")
Our netball team is the silver ferns, our women's rugby team are the black ferns.
Why are so many keen on keeping the flag that so few actually use?

I've seen sporting teams of other countries with their national flag on their chests, isn't it interesting that our sports teams don't do this. We just don't use our flag except where only a nations flag is acceptable, if we have any option we seem to just go to a kiwi or a fern (or sometimes a koru which is also the same fern).
Then people say that they like our current flag and we shouldn't change it. For my whole life I've seen evidence that New Zealanders DON'T like our flag and we don't want to use it.

When Canadians travel abroad it isn't unusual for them to put their flag on their baggage.
When people from the USA travel abroad they often put their flag on their baggage, at least until they realise that many people in the world hate Americans and then the smart ones switch to using the Canadian flag.
Many poms use the Union Jack to proudly say they are British!
New Zealanders traveling abroad very rarely use the NZ flag and any that start with that flag change to something else, you can only take so many times being asked if you are Australian!
So, New Zealanders proudly flying their nations flag - nah, not so much.

What if we changed to the proposed flag?
I think then there would be more New Zealanders traveling abroad that would be happy to display our flag. It would no longer be the embarrassing flag we currently have.

I've never understood the travelling with flags thing.
Why do you go to another country and try and rub peoples noses in where you're from? Who gives a fuck? If someone wants to know where you're from they'll ask I've always figured.

Also, almost all countries have symbols as well as flags.
Where is the Kangaroo on the Aussie flag?
The Rose on the Union Jack?
The Shamrock on the Irish?
Why isn't the French flag a plain white 'we surrender' flag?

Your argument for the fern being on sportsing teams uniforms, well, OK, then we'll be just like all the other sportsing nations with their flags on their uniforms, even Canada. Look at that glorious leaf on their rugger teams shirts.

Or not, because it's not even always on there (not sure which is which uniform but sometimes it's on the arm and sometimes it's not).

In fact I don't think you'll find a national flag on every rugby jersey? Or hockey? Or football? Might be the odd exception but on the whole your statement about flags on sportsing jerseys is a bit of a tall tale. Even Olympic uniforms don't always all have national flags on them and it doesn't get more nation vs nation than that.

At the end of the day comparing what is on some sports teams shirts and their names to a countries NATIONAL flag is a bit insulting anyway. That is a freakin tiny facet of what our country is about and shouldn't really have any bearing on a flag choice considering how fickle people are with that shit (it's only because we've been successful, in rugger particularly, that there is so much emotion attached. If we lost the next 100 games in a row the tune would change I absolutely guarantee you).

[Erelyes]

I am yet to be convinced by a coherent, considered, and well-reasoned argument that we need a new flag...

On the contrary, every case I've seen put forward for keeping the flag is emotive. And usually they're the ones that are at odds with reality.

Shit like "our soldiers died for it" when in actual fact the NZ units had silver ferns on their uniforms, silver ferns for their medals, and silver ferns on their graves.

Or "it's ugly" (such arguments are silent on the aesthetic of our current flag).

Or "it looks like a logo" (Name another native NZ motif that hasn't been used as a logo?).

Or "no-one cares whether it looks the same as Aussies" (if no-one cares then why do people keep bringing it up?).


I assume all those in favour, the 20% perhaps, will be putting their hands in their pockets to reimburse me and the apathetic 80% for our tax money that has been spent on this?

Which ignores the fact that the 20% pay tax too and this is the first time we've had a referendum on flag change in either of our lifetimes. If it was an annual cost perhaps your point would make sense.

But since we're making stupid assumptions, I assume you would prefer that they just voted on it in Parliament instead of actually spending the money so that the public has a say.

[scumdog]

I am yet to be convinced by a coherent, considered, and well-reasoned argument that we need a new flag...

True.

The zit on my chin has more significance to me than a 'need' for a new national flag.

If a new flag was a screaming necessity every prime minister since ages ago would have been clamouring for one eh.

[Moi]

True.

The zit on my chin has more significance to me than a 'need' for a new national flag.

If a new flag was a screaming necessity every prime minister since ages ago would have been clamouring for one eh.

Zit? Zit... well that's you not going to the ball tonight...

Seems that only the present incumbent is clamouring... does make one wonder what else is being hidden behind the smoke screen?

I can hear those KBers who are wanting a change rushing for their keyboards...

[bogan]

Seems that only the present incumbent is clamouring... does make one wonder what else is being hidden behind the smoke screen?

I can hear those KBers who are wanting a change rushing for their keyboards...

Have you considered the irony around creating an issue bitching about the democratic process, while also bitching about its subversion by smokescreen you are creating?

[Blackbird]

True.

The zit on my chin has more significance to me than a 'need' for a new national flag.

If a new flag was a screaming necessity every prime minister since ages ago would have been clamouring for one eh.

Hi Tom,
From a personal perspective (and from an ex-Pom to boot :yes:), it's one of those things which is not on most people's immediate horizon so no-one gets too excited until there is a bit of debate to stir the grey matter. I'm not anti the current flag in the slightest but from a purely personal viewpoint, I'd support the new one. I've been in NZ since 1975 and reckon the NZ culture compared with the UK is something rather special. Ignoring the scenery, Kiwis have a wonderful optimism and "can do" attitude which a new flag could maybe help reinforce to both residents and the rest of the world. If the democratic process says the current flag stays, that's fine too.

That's my 5 cents worth - no big drama.

[Moi]

Have you considered the irony around creating an issue bitching about the democratic process, while also bitching about its subversion by smokescreen you are creating?

I am not bitching about the democratic process - I don't believe I have said anything of that sort...

I am not bitching about its subversion by smokescreen...

What I am doing is asking questions which is part of the democratic process, though I sense there are some on here who find that intimidating - to have their thinking questioned is an affront to them.

[bogan]

I am not bitching about the democratic process - I don't believe I have said anything of that sort...

I am not bitching about its subversion by smokescreen...

What I am doing is asking questions which is part of the democratic process, though I sense there are some on here who find that intimidating - to have their thinking questioned is an affront to them.

Things like saying the present incumbent is clamoring, and that he is hiding things behind the smokescreen certainly sounds like bitching about both the process, and the smokescreen to me.


I don't see the present flag as "broken"... You see I am not persuaded by the hype presented by the media, the commentators, the "personalities", the government and by anyone else who is swayed by what appears to me to be a logo... or the "smoke-screen" that the flag debate appears to have been... that's how I see it...

As I say, I'm still awaiting a reasoned argument to change the flag... not some knee jerk or mass hysteric reaction...

Also bitching.

Reasoned arguments have been provided, you don't have to agree with them, but to put them down as knee jerk or mass hysteria is just making a fool of yourself.

[Katman]

What I am doing is asking questions which is part of the democratic process, though I sense there are some on here who find that intimidating - to have their thinking questioned is an affront to them.

Yep, that sounds like bogan.

[MarkH]

Again, thank you for the personal attack...

Any time.




You have just reiterated the "fictitious" statement...

You could look here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexillology) and here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_vexillology)


What is wrong with you?
When did I say vexillology was fictitious?
When did I say I didn't know what vexillology was?
Why do I need links to vexillology?
Why don't you read what I typed and try to understand?
I know what vexillology is and that isn't what I'm calling fictitious.
I'm calling "the rules of vexillology that make the proposed flag unable to be used by NZ" a fiction made up by you.
You still haven't provided any link to any 'rules' that would suggest we couldn't use the proposed flag.


Wrong. If you are prepared to vote for something or against something then you need to have a reasoned argument for either supporting it or not. You may be happy with what has been presented so far as reasons to change the flag, but I am not, hence I am waiting for a reasoned argument...

Yes, but you are the only person on this planet that requires a reasoned argument that YOU are happy with.
I'm happy with my reasons for making my choice and every other voter for this referendum just needs to be happy with their own reasons for their choice.
Someone could vote for a flag just because they think it looks better, who are you to say that they MUST have deeper reasoning than that.

[Moi]

Things like saying the present incumbent is clamoring, and that he is hiding things behind the smokescreen certainly sounds like bitching about both the process, and the smokescreen to me.

Also bitching.

Reasoned arguments have been provided, you don't have to agree with them, but to put them down as knee jerk or mass hysteria is just making a fool of yourself.

If you consider what I have said to be "bitching" then so be it...

I consider that what has been presented so far as reasons to change the flag is not well-reasoned argument. You may consider them well-reasoned but I don't, hence I am not swayed to vote to change the flag. Arguing a well reasoned and coherent position to sway voters to support you is part of the democratic process - if you want me to vote for the proposed flag then you need to convince me that it is worthy of my support.

However, what I am seeing in this thread is the fall-back position of some: that is to attack the person rather than the argument.

[MarkH]

The Welsh have a dragon on their flag, and a national symbol is the daffodil.

And another national symbol is the dragon . . .
So the Welsh DO use a national symbol on their flag, you have accidentally supported the opposite of what you are trying to argue.

[Moi]

Any time.

What is wrong with you?
When did I say vexillology was fictitious?
When did I say I didn't know what vexillology was?
Why do I need links to vexillology?
Why don't you read what I typed and try to understand?
I know what vexillology is and that isn't what I'm calling fictitious.
I'm calling "the rules of vexillology that make the proposed flag unable to be used by NZ" a fiction made up by you.
You still haven't provided any link to any 'rules' that would suggest we couldn't use the proposed flag.


Yes, but you are the only person on this planet that requires a reasoned argument that YOU are happy with.
I'm happy with my reasons for making my choice and every other voter for this referendum just needs to be happy with their own reasons for their choice.
Someone could vote for a flag just because they think it looks better, who are you to say that they MUST have deeper reasoning than that.

You seem to not understand that so far I have not seen any reasons presented that convince me that I should vote to change the flag.

I have questioned whether the proposed flag will function as an ensign for the military. No, I'm just asking how it will do that function. If the voters decide to have the proposed flag as our new flag then that will happen, no one can stop us from having it.

So I want a reasoned argument that I am happy with... if you want me to support you then you need to provide that reasoned argument to convince me - that is what persuasive argument is about.

Voters can chose the flag because they like it - as long as they have made an informed decision.

[bogan]

If you consider what I have said to be "bitching" then so be it...

I consider that what has been presented so far as reasons to change the flag is not well-reasoned argument. You may consider them well-reasoned but I don't, hence I am not swayed to vote to change the flag. Arguing a well reasoned and coherent position to sway voters to support you is part of the democratic process - if you want me to vote for the proposed flag then you need to convince me that it is worthy of my support.

However, what I am seeing in this thread is the fall-back position of some: that is to attack the person rather than the argument.

I do.

You lost me there, being well reasoned doesn't mean you have to agree. Points like we wish to differentiate ourselves from Australia as our flags look too similar and often get confused is well reasoned; points like we wish to have something symbolic to NZ on our flag is well reasoned; points like we are not a british colony any more is well reasoned. Just as point like our soldiers fought under that flag is well reasoned; kiwi's know our flag and want continuity from that is well reasoned.

Which is the same as what we're seeing from you. Ie, just say 'the reasons put forward do not sway me to vote to change the flag', instead of things like 'I'm still awaiting a reasoned argument to change the flag... not some knee jerk or mass hysteric reaction' or that someone is clamouring and putting this up a smokescreen (which btw, is not well reasoned if you've seen the labor party lately).

[MarkH]

I have questioned whether the proposed flag will function as an ensign for the military. No, I'm just asking how it will do that function.

But why did you question that? What difference does that make in terms of NZers deciding what flag should be used to represent this country?

What you actually said was:

The other aspect that needs to be considered is does the proposed flag obey the rules of vexillology? It needs to perform numerous functions such as Ensigns of the different military.

You want to know if the proposed flag obeys the rules of vexillology, but you haven't shown what these rules are that you are referring to. It would have been helpful if you could have provided a link to these rules because I have absolutely no idea of any rules you could be referring to.

I think you are wrong about it needing to perform as Ensigns for the military, the military ensigns can be based on the nation's flag but don't need to be the same as it. I would think that surely it is up to our various branches of the military to worry about whether they will change their ensigns and which designs to change to. I have no idea of why any referendum voter needs to concern themselves about that.

If you are not going to be convinced by anyone that the flag should change then you can just choose to vote for keeping the current one, that is your democratic right.
Just be grateful that the people have a say here, fifty years ago the Canadian officials decided to change their nation's flag and it happened regardless of whether the public wanted it or not.

BTW:
The Canadians dropped the Union Jack (AKA Union Flag) from their national flag and yet remained a member of the commonwealth. Their military still had ensigns and the sky didn't fall.
This has happened for other countries as well, a change of flag happens and life continues.

[gjm]

In the beginning, there was the Labour Party and they said "Let's change the flag." Then they saw what it would cost and said "Actually, there are better things to spend the money on." At that time, some ex-pat US banker who had returned to his council house in NZ said "Changing the flag is a waste of money." And lo, his words were heard, and they were good, and the flag change idea did go away.

(Fast forward...)

And so the big companies of the world did come to the governments and said "We want more money. Ah, sorry, that's not what we meant. We wish to extend trading opportunities to those countries not currently controlled by us, sorry, not currently able to take advantage of the much wider world market for continued growth and prosperity (of the already very rich)."

And the governments looked upon this, saw opportunities, and said "This will be good. Let us write The Agreement." And the companies did respond, saying "We wish to help - here's one we prepared earlier. Have a quick read... It's just standard stuff."

Then the pesky proletariat did learn of the plans, and heard whispers of Bad Things that were included in The Agreement but not being openly discussed. And the proletariat were mightily perturbed, and did complain long, lound and bitterly. They took to the streets worldwide. And the governments looked on this and thought "Shit. This isn't going according to plan. Give them something else to think about."

So it was that in New Zealand the National (oxymoron) Party did rack their collective brains, and came up with an old idea that no-one remembered: change the flag. "It will focus public opinion away from something we really want to do, and let us get on with The Important Things those pesky citizens don't need to know about." [In future years people archivists will look upon this and say "How the fuck did they get away with that again? First the fish and the GCSB spying, and now this!"]

And lo, John Key went forward and said "I've had a great idea to bring the country together - let's change the flag!" while muttering behind his hand "Frankly I don't give a flying fuck either way so long as we get The Agreement signed."

And the strategists came forward and said "We need to ensure the success of The Agreement so the flag changing process must take a long time. We cannot make this decision ourselves for even with our slothful ways, it would be over too quickly. And the whimsical ways of the populace will change too quickly, bringing us more grief about The Agreement. We need to ensure no decision can be made quickly... Prepare the emergency Committee, and have the loyal TV ferret say what a wonderful idea it is. That'll sort it."

And so it was that the Committee [something the archivists will refer to and describe as an entity with more than three legs and no brain] came to be.

And the strategists looked upon this, and it was good. Too good. The process was still too quick!

"Let's ask the people if they want to change the flag! It'll obscure our intentions further, give them something other than The Agreement to talk about, and take their minds off the national (National?) shafting they'll get at the hands of international business. It should cost money... Not too much and not too little. Say... $26m. Polls say it'll not happen so we don't need to worry about actually doing anything (collective sigh of relief), and in the meantime the Committee can have lots of lunches and nice hotel rooms to stay in."

And the word was passed down. And so it came to be.

[oldrider]

In the beginning, there was the Labour Party and they said "Let's change the flag." Then they saw what it would cost and said "Actually, there are better things to spend the money on." At that time, some ex-pat US banker who had returned to his council house in NZ said "Changing the flag is a waste of money." And lo, his words were heard, and they were good, and the flag change idea did go away.

(Fast forward...)

And so the big companies of the world did come to the governments and said "We want more money. Ah, sorry, that's not what we meant. We wish to extend trading opportunities to those countries not currently controlled by us, sorry, not currently able to take advantage of the much wider world market for continued growth and prosperity (of the already very rich)."

And the governments looked upon this, saw opportunities, and said "This will be good. Let us write The Agreement." And the companies did respond, saying "We wish to help - here's one we prepared earlier. Have a quick read... It's just standard stuff."

Then the pesky proletariat did learn of the plans, and heard whispers of Bad Things that were included in The Agreement but not being openly discussed. And the proletariat were mightily perturbed, and did complain long, lound and bitterly. They took to the streets worldwide. And the governments looked on this and thought "Shit. This isn't going according to plan. Give them something else to think about."

So it was that in New Zealand the National (oxymoron) Party did rack their collective brains, and came up with an old idea that no-one remembered: change the flag. "It will focus public opinion away from something we really want to do, and let us get on with The Important Things those pesky citizens don't need to know about." [In future years people archivists will look upon this and say "How the fuck did they get away with that again? First the fish and the GCSB spying, and now this!"]

And lo, John Key went forward and said "I've had a great idea to bring the country together - let's change the flag!" while muttering behind his hand "Frankly I don't give a flying fuck either way so long as we get The Agreement signed."

And the strategists came forward and said "We need to ensure the success of The Agreement so the flag changing process must take a long time. We cannot make this decision ourselves for even with our slothful ways, it would be over too quickly. And the whimsical ways of the populace will change too quickly, bringing us more grief about The Agreement. We need to ensure no decision can be made quickly... Prepare the emergency Committee, and have the loyal TV ferret say what a wonderful idea it is. That'll sort it."

And so it was that the Committee [something the archivists will refer to and describe as an entity with more than three legs and no brain] came to be.

And the strategists looked upon this, and it was good. Too good. The process was still too quick!

"Let's ask the people if they want to change the flag! It'll obscure our intentions further, give them something other than The Agreement to talk about, and take their minds off the national (National?) shafting they'll get at the hands of international business. It should cost money... Not too much and not too little. Say... $26m. Polls say it'll not happen so we don't need to worry about actually doing anything (collective sigh of relief), and in the meantime the Committee can have lots of lunches and nice hotel rooms to stay in."

And the word was passed down. And so it came to be.

:psst: To be signed up in NZ in February 2016 actually :shutup: :sleep: :zzzz: --------- meanwhile --------- Which Flag? :rolleyes:

[oldrider]

:psst: To be signed up in NZ in February 2016 actually :shutup: :sleep: :zzzz: --------- meanwhile --------- Which Flag? :rolleyes:

Well in answer to my own question Which Flag?

Today I drove around the village to see a man about a dog - his neighbour (an avid flag flier) was boldly flying the "New" flag!

Have to say now that the money is spent and the sideshow has all but concluded - I won't be sorry to see it flying as our national symbol!

I have almost always been in the no change camp rather than the change at any cost - but!

There it was swirling comfortably and assertively in the breeze and my first thought was - YES!

So either way I will be OK with it but deep down there seems to be a subliminal niggle that I will be disappointed if we haven't moved on while we had the chance!

Must be getting old and trying to score 2nd base while still safely holding a foot on 1st base - what a chicken - I feel cheep! :o Go the new flag! :niceone:

[Reckless]

I've always thought we should change the flag, new start and all. No disrespect to the heros of our past but times change and secondly I feel no allegiance to the queen or Britain re the union jack on our present flag. The flag chosen right from the start and the one I voted for It was that particular one or keep the old one in my mind as I didnt like the others much to the disgust of both my sons.
Came across this pic and its all in the fern :) Its much more prominent in this pic and is much more us as Kiwis I reckon.
Time for a change, bring it on :)

319100

[Banditbandit]

The referendum is designed to fail ... we will not get a flag change.

Look at it this way - there were five flags to chose from in the first round - so any flag that got more than 20% of the vote (5 flags on a general population spread would be 20% each) is ahead of the game. In the end the results were about 40%, 41%, 8%, 5% and 1% on the first count.

There was 48.78% turn out. So with a first ballot of 40 percent, that flag received 40% of the vote of 48.78 voter turnout - or about 19.5 percent support from voters. (after the proportional reps votes were taken the wining option received just over 50% - but was the first choice of only 40% of the votors or 19% of the voting population - hardly an endorsement. )

That means that potentially 51.2 percent of the population did not vote because they did not support flag change, and a further 29.3 percent voted for other flag options. 80.5 percent either refused to chose or prefered another option.

So, when the final vote comes, a good chunk of 51.2% who did not vote in the first referendum will vote against change. Others (from the 29.3% who supported other options) will vote against change because they do not like the option (If my choice had not made it I would possibly have changed by vote to keep the curent flag).

So the chance of getting a new flag is almost zero ... it was designed to fail - either intetianally or unententionally -

John Key can now go back to the flag change supporters and say "I gave the country a choice" and he can say to the ones who want the current flag - "see nothing changed" - a win/win for Teflone John.

Pisses me off .. fucking politicians.

[Waihou Thumper]

WE WILL not change the flag!
I feel confident about that.....:bleh:

[Clunge Bucket]

If you cant decide which NZ Brand Logo you want then feel free to borrow this flag for a while...I mean, you're all English anyway so why not....

319126

[YellowDog]

WE WILL not change the flag!
I feel confident about that.....:bleh:

I agree :whocares:

[bogan]

The referendum is designed to fail ... we will not get a flag change.

Look at it this way - there were five flags to chose from in the first round - so any flag that got more than 20% of the vote (5 flags on a general population spread would be 20% each) is ahead of the game. In the end the results were about 40%, 41%, 8%, 5% and 1% on the first count.

There was 48.78% turn out. So with a first ballot of 40 percent, that flag received 40% of the vote of 48.78 voter turnout - or about 19.5 percent support from voters. (after the proportional reps votes were taken the wining option received just over 50% - but was the first choice of only 40% of the votors or 19% of the voting population - hardly an endorsement. )

That means that potentially 51.2 percent of the population did not vote because they did not support flag change, and a further 29.3 percent voted for other flag options. 80.5 percent either refused to chose or prefered another option.

So, when the final vote comes, a good chunk of 51.2% who did not vote in the first referendum will vote against change. Others (from the 29.3% who supported other options) will vote against change because they do not like the option (If my choice had not made it I would possibly have changed by vote to keep the curent flag).

So the chance of getting a new flag is almost zero ... it was designed to fail - either intetianally or unententionally -

John Key can now go back to the flag change supporters and say "I gave the country a choice" and he can say to the ones who want the current flag - "see nothing changed" - a win/win for Teflone John.

Pisses me off .. fucking politicians.

All that number crunching is well beside the fucking point; since the next one is a simple question, with some simple rules to follow; if more votes are for change, it changes, if not, it stays. So we couldn't give a fuck how many voted for what or not so far; you've got no fucking idea of their reasons or how they will vote in the next one. So it's not designed to fail, it's designed to be democratic.

[Oakie]

That means that potentially 51.2 percent of the population did not vote because they did not support flag change,

Mathematically yes, but that's a big assumption. There will have been all sorts of reasons for not voting. Apathy will be up there but I think also many will have seen this as just a preliminary (which it is) and will only vote in the final and decisive vote. My pick is that no more half of that 51.2% will actually vote in the final referendum and that half of them will vote for change. I think we will see a change but that less than half the voting age population will vote for it. I'm comfortable with that. That's the nature of democracy.

[Voltaire]

Aussies idea has some merit of declaring a re pub lick when the Kween dies.
Her sprogeny can just f%^K off / and shit.....
no chips













Randum comment %.......:gob:

[Waihou Thumper]

If you cant decide which NZ Brand Logo you want then feel free to borrow this flag for a while...I mean, you're all English anyway so why not...


....and half of all that heraldry came from France and Germany! :killingme
Besides...we can decide, someone has made it their swansong to leave a legacy without really asking NZ'ers....

[Clunge Bucket]

....and half of all that heraldry came from France and Germany! :killingme



Only the crap half

[husaberg]

....and half of all that heraldry came from France and Germany! :killingme




Most were even sired by some sort of Greek sailor. Called Battenberg.:laugh:

[pete376403]

A flag making/selling place in Petone has three flags flying - the real NZ flag, the pretender to the throne and the aussie one. I guess they are trying to reinforce how similar the aussie one is to ours and make it look like we HAVE to change so we don't get mistaken for the other place.

[Voltaire]

A flag making/selling place in Petone has three flags flying - the real NZ flag, the pretender to the throne and the aussie one. I guess they are trying to reinforce how similar the aussie one is to ours and make it look like we HAVE to change so we don't get mistaken for the other place.

Is that like if Indonesia declared war on Australia and turned up here by mistake?

[MarkH]

I guess they are trying to reinforce how similar the aussie one is to ours and make it look like we HAVE to change so we don't get mistaken for the other place.

IF that was someone's concern and they really want our flag to not get mistaken for the aussie one THEN how exactly could that be done without changing our flag?
We either force aussie to change their flag or we vote change ours, otherwise we just have to accept that our flag will regularly get mistaken for the aussie one.

[mashman]

A flag making/selling place in Petone has three flags flying - the real NZ flag, the pretender to the throne and the aussie one. I guess they are trying to reinforce how similar the aussie one is to ours and make it look like we HAVE to change so we don't get mistaken for the other place.

If difference is the defining criteria, best ya'll change your accents, because the vast majority of none Kiwi/Ozzy think ya'll sound and look the same :laugh:

[Akzle]

wooo! Jewn key must be stoked. We've gone from 64% opposition to 61%..
Just listen to what he has to say about it!

....//o, wait on...

[Voltaire]

I wonder it the Italians and Mexicans are watching this closely.
Coz itz rully importunt to uz hure in Noo Zullund.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-countries-flags/italy-flag.gif

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-countries-flags/mexico-flag.gif

[Banditbandit]

...I mean, you're all English anyway so why not....

319126

yes - but the "English" are French, Germany or Scandinavian (with a litle Roman left as well)

[Erelyes]

So either way I will be OK with it but deep down there seems to be a subliminal niggle that I will be disappointed if we haven't moved on while we had the chance!

Summed it up perfectly. If the answer's no, I am happy with that as at least we were given the chance to decide it democratically (ourselves, not through representatives), 'once and for all' for a nominal cost.

But at the same time it will prove us disappointingly conservative as a country.

[Voltaire]

Interesting they have being flying the ferny one over the Harbour Bridge lately when the policy is official flags only.

They only fly Tino Rangatiratanga on some occasions and they have to apply for it.

I suppose once you see it every day for an hour or so as you foolishly :nya: cross over the bridge to work it becomes the new normal :yes:

[Akzle]

funny. Jk said he saw "the new flag" flying at several properties as he walked in omaha (presumably his third batch house is there) as compared to "the old flag"

forgone conclusion?
Democracy my ass.

The technology exists to have direct democracy, that is, every cunt votes on every fucken thing. Representatives not required. Mob rule wins ("democratically"). And it sure wouldnt cost what the flag farce has.

Anyway. Enjoy being sold down the river "kiwis".

[gjm]

The fern flag being flown on the Harbour Bridge is the wrong colour, so it will be replaced.

Another fuck up, and more cost to taxpayers.

[oldrider]

Interesting they have being flying the ferny one over the Harbour Bridge lately when the policy is official flags only.

They only fly Tino Rangatiratanga on some occasions and they have to apply for it.

I suppose once you see it every day for an hour or so as you foolishly :nya: cross over the bridge to work it becomes the new normal :yes:

Careful - you are sounding like a conspiracy theorist! ----------- Like many conspiracy theorists of course - you are quite right! :niceone:

[gjm]

funny. Jk said he saw "the new flag" flying at several properties as he walked in omaha (presumably his third batch house is there) as compared to "the old flag"

forgone conclusion?
Democracy my ass.

The technology exists to have direct democracy, that is, every cunt votes on every fucken thing. Representatives not required. Mob rule wins ("democratically"). And it sure wouldnt cost what the flag farce has.

Anyway. Enjoy being sold down the river "kiwis".

John Key at the signing of the TPPA today. Note lapel pin.

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12651343_943325565722983_4939684329429994177_n.png ?oh=a393677a296e66a99fc8154f6adcf2a2&oe=573F5449

[Akzle]

srsly. you lot need to start voting these cunts off the planet.

[gjm]

srsly. you lot need to start voting these cunts off the planet.

Democracy and voting ain't working.

At least, not from my perspective. ;)

[MarkH]

John Key at the signing of the TPPA today. Note lapel pin.

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12651343_943325565722983_4939684329429994177_n.png ?oh=a393677a296e66a99fc8154f6adcf2a2&oe=573F5449

I don't get it.
John Key has already publicly stated that he is in favour of changing the flag so how does his show of support for the new flag surprise anyone?
What exactly is the big deal supposed to be there?

[Akzle]

I don't get it.
John Key has already publicly stated that he is in favour of changing the flag so how does his show of support for the new flag surprise anyone?
What exactly is the big deal supposed to be there?

bypass of something like due process?

[oldrider]

Careful - you are sounding like a conspiracy theorist! ----------- Like many conspiracy theorists of course - you are quite right! :niceone:

Bogans response to a post (above) on the flag thread agreeing with Voltaire? - is he a red bling compulsive obsessive? - or simply a self appointed KB sensor? :lol:


Thread: Flag? - [RED] don't start that shit in this thread

So OK it's his right to comment as he wishes :tugger:

[gjm]

I don't get it.
John Key has already publicly stated that he is in favour of changing the flag so how does his show of support for the new flag surprise anyone?
What exactly is the big deal supposed to be there?

And there was me thinking a government was supposed to be impartial, and doing the best it could for the people of the country they have been elected to govern.

Silly me to suppose that a personal agenda shouldn't be so publicly flaunted.

Either that, or the lapel pin has absolutely no relevance of any sort to anything whatsoever and just one of those curious coincidences that seem come up all too often at the moment.

[gjm]

Actually... I apologise for my previous post.

I'm seriously fed up with people not being able to see what the real problems are. Not the flag, and not even the TPPA. It's the smug and supercilious nature of the person we're looking to for answers. 6 chapters of the TPPA apply to trade, and 24 to corporate 'benefits' and 'activities.'

When asked how many relate to trade, John Key smiled and said 'All of them'. Then walked on before anyone could ask another question, ask for clarification, or contradict him. Do that sort of thing often enough, as he has, and you start to believe you can always get away with it.

[oldrider]

And there was me thinking a government was supposed to be impartial, and doing the best it could for the people of the country they have been elected to govern.

Silly me to suppose that a personal agenda shouldn't be so publicly flaunted.

Either that, or the lapel pin has absolutely no relevance of any sort to anything whatsoever and just one of those curious coincidences that seem come up all too often at the moment.

Curious to know just how many of those he had manufactured and who paid for them - was it all part of the perk money generated by the flag saga? :scratch:

[gjm]

Curious to know just how many of those he had manufactured and who paid for them - was it all part of the perk money generated by the flag saga? :scratch:

Lol

So cynical. So potentially accurate.

John Key won't be at Waitangi this year, the first time a PM has ever missed it (apparently).

[bogan]

And there was me thinking a government was supposed to be impartial, and doing the best it could for the people of the country they have been elected to govern.

Silly me to suppose that a personal agenda shouldn't be so publicly flaunted.

Either that, or the lapel pin has absolutely no relevance of any sort to anything whatsoever and just one of those curious coincidences that seem come up all too often at the moment.


Actually... I apologise for my previous post.

I'm seriously fed up with people not being able to see what the real problems are. Not the flag, and not even the TPPA. It's the smug and supercilious nature of the person we're looking to for answers. 6 chapters of the TPPA apply to trade, and 24 to corporate 'benefits' and 'activities.'

When asked how many relate to trade, John Key smiled and said 'All of them'. Then walked on before anyone could ask another question, ask for clarification, or contradict him. Do that sort of thing often enough, as he has, and you start to believe you can always get away with it.

There's some truth to those points, but, why make them when we are discussing an issue that is free of those? I think the flag debate and referendum has been conducted very democratically, the main criticism I would have would be the lack of choice (and similarity between two of the options) of the first poll, but that is largely overturned by the addition of red peak due to public support.


Bogans response to a post (above) on the flag thread agreeing with Voltaire? - is he a red bling compulsive obsessive? - or simply a self appointed KB sensor? :lol:

Thread: Flag? - [RED] don't start that shit in this thread

So OK it's his right to comment as he wishes :tugger:

Perhaps I just meant your post should have some sort of content relevant to the thread, rather than bringing in the bleat brigade to throw mindless insults and detract from any meaningful discussion. The red was simply to give you that message without cluttering up the thread; ie, the exact thing the rep system is for.

[oldrider]

Perhaps I just meant your post should have some sort of content relevant to the thread, rather than bringing in the bleat brigade to throw mindless insults and detract from any meaningful discussion. The red was simply to give you that message without cluttering up the thread; ie, the exact thing the rep system is for.

As the OP on this thread do you not suppose I might have a fair idea of what the thread is supposed to be about FFS? :rolleyes:

[bogan]

As the OP on this thread do you not suppose I might have a fair idea of what the thread is supposed to be about FFS? :rolleyes:

No; spank, MT, and the other mods have been over this many times; the OP has no ownership of a thread. It's a community forum for discussion; this discussion is quite clearly about the flag debate.

If you've a problem with my use of the rep system there are appropriate channels to go through.

[oldrider]

No; spank, MT, and the other mods have been over this many times; the OP has no ownership of a thread. It's a community forum for discussion; this discussion is quite clearly about the flag debate.

If you've a problem with my use of the rep system there are appropriate channels to go through.

Your assumptions are amazing - I have no problem with you using the rep system simply amused at your obvious preference for colour!

Where did I claim ownership for the thread - simply claimed the position of the OP - the instigator of the thread - I.E. the flag.

My response to Voltaire was about his suggestion that the flags on the bridge becoming the norm over time has hints of conspiracy theorist!

I think he understood my meaning - he is a big boy doesn't need your protection from people like me! :baby:

[bogan]

Your assumptions are amazing - I have no problem with you using the rep system simply amused at your obvious preference for colour!

Where did I claim ownership for the thread - simply claimed the position of the OP - the instigator of the thread - I.E. the flag.

My response to Voltaire was about his suggestion that the flags on the bridge becoming the norm over time has hints of conspiracy theorist!

I think he understood my meaning - he is a big boy doesn't need your protection from people like me! :baby:

Actually, I voted for flags across the color spectrum, I find that colors are so much more than just a pigment, they are an accent to the surroundings or content.

The nit-pickery is of no relevance; the topic is flags (as was Voltaire's post), and this is not the place to complain or otherwise discuss other's use of the rep system.

Now if a mod could prune this conversation chain to PDP that would be mint.

[gjm]

There's some truth to those points, but, why make them when we are discussing an issue that is free of those? I think the flag debate and referendum has been conducted very democratically, the main criticism I would have would be the lack of choice (and similarity between two of the options) of the first poll, but that is largely overturned by the addition of red peak due to public support.

I feel, and while I'm not alone I know it isn't an exclusive view, that the democratic process would have been to ask "Do you want to change the flag" and then, if appropriate, to embark on a lengthy and ridiculous process leading to the situation we had a few months ago. Instead <conspiracy theory> I feel we've had a runaround waste of time and money to distract people from the TPPA. </conspiracy theory>

I have a sense of humour. honest, I do!

I just think the process has been flawed from day q, and that John Key is a smarmy self-satisfied twat. I'm pre-disposed to disbelieve whatever he says or does but try to remain dispassionate. It doesn't always work.

[bogan]

I feel, and while I'm not alone I know it isn't an exclusive view, that the democratic process would have been to ask "Do you want to change the flag" and then, if appropriate, to embark on a lengthy and ridiculous process leading to the situation we had a few months ago. Instead <conspiracy theory> I feel we've had a runaround waste of time and money to distract people from the TPPA. </conspiracy theory>

I have a sense of humour. honest, I do!

I just think the process has been flawed from day q, and that John Key is a smarmy self-satisfied twat. I'm pre-disposed to disbelieve whatever he says or does but try to remain dispassionate. It doesn't always work.

In which case you'd need three referendums to be properly democratic, which might not result in a change at all. So it'd be one or three for that option, or the fixed two like we went with; so I don't think there is a right/wrong call to be made on that score. I have more faith in the voting public, while I'm not happy about the amount of secrecy surrounding the TPPA negotiations, I think the public could find time to make TPPA a big issue if it was warranted; regardless of flag change or other distractions on the go.

I think this process is one of the best examples of the democratic process we should aim for, specifically because of how little dependence the outcome has on the smarmy prick that instigated it.

[Oakie]

John Key at the signing of the TPPA today. Note lapel pin.


bypass of something like due process?


And there was me thinking a government was supposed to be impartial, and doing the best it could for the people of the country they have been elected to govern. Silly me to suppose that a personal agenda shouldn't be so publicly flaunted. Either that, or the lapel pin has absolutely no relevance of any sort to anything whatsoever and just one of those curious coincidences that seem come up all too often at the moment.

Can't win can he? Gets jumped on because he can't divulge content of TPPA negotiations and then gets jumped on because he does shows his own personal opinion on the flag issue. Who'd be a politician!

Must go and google NZ flag lapel pins.

[gjm]

In which case you'd need three referendums to be properly democratic, which might not result in a change at all. So it'd be one or three for that option, or the fixed two like we went with; so I don't think there is a right/wrong call to be made on that score. I have more faith in the voting public, while I'm not happy about the amount of secrecy surrounding the TPPA negotiations, I think the public could find time to make TPPA a big issue if it was warranted; regardless of flag change or other distractions on the go.

I think this process is one of the best examples of the democratic process we should aim for, specifically because of how little dependence the outcome has on the smarmy prick that instigated it.

Why three referendums?

Do you want to change the flag?
Which one would you like?


Key is key to this. He represents the National Party, or at least the government (not necessarily the same thing) and is particularly adept at deflecting questions, not answering questions, distracting, and being able to walk away from a situation that might become difficult. Essentially - he's better at not providing information than most people, and he knows it.

[Oakie]

http://www.silverfernflag.org/store.html

Knock yourselves out kids.

[bogan]

Why three referendums?

Do you want to change the flag?
Which one would you like?


Key is key to this. He represents the National Party, or at least the government (not necessarily the same thing) and is particularly adept at deflecting questions, not answering questions, distracting, and being able to walk away from a situation that might become difficult. Essentially - he's better at not providing information than most people, and he knows it.

3: Do you approve changing to this flag that was the most popular?

Otherwise you might end up with a flag only 30% or less of NZ actually want to change to; which doesn't sound very democratic at all.

So which are the questions on the flag topic that he evades etc could be a problem to the simple and open choice we have to vote on?

[gjm]

3: Do you approve changing to this flag that was the most popular?

Otherwise you might end up with a flag only 30% or less of NZ actually want to change to; which doesn't sound very democratic at all.

So which are the questions on the flag topic that he evades etc could be a problem to the simple and open choice we have to vote on?

Option 3 is not required. Do you want to change? No. game over. Or Yes - choose the new flag. Job done.
We currently have a situation where the challenging flag commands significantly less than 30% of Kiwi's preferential votes, without having been pitted against the current flag! And then it's only in because countbacks were needed to assess 2nd and 3rd choices.

A waste of everyone's time effort and money. My time too - I'll be voting in the next round but shouldn't need to.

[bogan]

Option 3 is not required. Do you want to change? No. game over. Or Yes - choose the new flag. Job done.
We currently have a situation where the challenging flag commands significantly less than 30% of Kiwi's preferential votes, without having been pitted against the current flag! And then it's only in because countbacks were needed to assess 2nd and 3rd choices.

A waste of everyone's time effort and money. My time too - I'll be voting in the next round but shouldn't need to.
Yet the choice of new flag might only be the preferred flag for 30 % or less; do you need me to go through the numbers for that?

Exactly, and now we decide if that 30 % preferred option is preferred by the majority to our current flag; this is precisely why the last question must be old vs preferred new.

So, there's no actual problem with the way it has been run, just that you didn't want the question asked for n the first place.

[oldrider]

http://www.silverfernflag.org/store.html

Knock yourselves out kids.

It's the way this and the cost of it was foisted upon us that I have most objections to!

It smacks at contrived political diversion and preconceived outcome expectations all the way!

However - I like the new flag and will be disappointed now if we go to all this expense and don't move forward - I think (and now hope) it's a done deal! - Fuck it! :brick:

So will these guys - eh Oakie! http://www.silverfernflag.org/store.html

(OK Bogan this is me too: just that you didn't want the question asked for in the first place.)

[MarkH]

bypass of something like due process?

You might have to explain that one to me, I'm not able to see how JK wearing a pin bypasses anything.


And there was me thinking a government was supposed to be impartial, and doing the best it could for the people of the country they have been elected to govern.

Silly me to suppose that a personal agenda shouldn't be so publicly flaunted.

Either that, or the lapel pin has absolutely no relevance of any sort to anything whatsoever and just one of those curious coincidences that seem come up all too often at the moment.

Politicians express opinions all the time.
Changing to the proposed new flag would be good for the people of this country.

[MarkH]

Option 3 is not required. Do you want to change? No. game over. Or Yes - choose the new flag. Job done.
We currently have a situation where the challenging flag commands significantly less than 30% of Kiwi's preferential votes, without having been pitted against the current flag! And then it's only in because countbacks were needed to assess 2nd and 3rd choices.

A waste of everyone's time effort and money. My time too - I'll be voting in the next round but shouldn't need to.

You are incorrect there sir.

Do you want to change the flag?
It depends on what to. Seriously, I couldn't give any answer to this that means anything unless I first knew what we would get if we did change the flag.

What is needed is to make a decision on what flag we would change to if we were to change flags and then ask "do you want to change our flag to this?"
That would be the only way this thing would work.

[Akzle]

You might have to explain that one to me, I'm not able to see how JK wearing a pin bypasses anything.

Politicians express opinions all the time.

the perception of* due process.
Any statement prefaced "well i think", fine.
But for someone (jk) with an agenda (he started the shennannigans yeah) and a history of pushing through what he wants in the face of public opposition, it's a poor look.



Changing to the proposed new flag would be good for the people of this country.

errrrr. How??

[gsxr]

You are incorrect there sir.

Do you want to change the flag?
It depends on what to. Seriously, I couldn't give any answer to this that means anything unless I first knew what we would get if we did change the flag.

What is needed is to make a decision on what flag we would change to if we were to change flags and then ask "do you want to change our flag to this?"
That would be the only way this thing would work.

The question is why do we NEED to ask the question of a change of flag.

[haydes55]

The question is why do we NEED to ask the question of a change of flag.
Because out flag is constantly confused with Australia's. To the point where a lot of people just think new zealand is just a state of Australia.

That and out current flag is pretty ugly.

[bogan]

The question is why do we NEED to ask the question of a change of flag.

Democracy.

[Oakie]

The question is why do we NEED to ask the question of a change of flag.

The same reason we might ask the question, "do I need to update my bike?"

[pete376403]

Because out flag is constantly confused with Australia's.
really? I've never had a problem telling them apart. f'rinstance four stars is not the same as 6 stars. Also the NZ flag dates from 1902 - the Aussie design dates from 1934, but didn't officially become the Australian flag until 1954, so 32 years later and the best they can come up with is a knock-off of ours.

http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-australia-flag-and-new-zealand-flag/

[Oakie]

really? I've never had a problem telling them apart. f'rinstance four stars is not the same as 6 stars. Also the NZ flag dates from 1902 - the Aussie design dates from 1934, but didn't officially become the Australian flag until 1954, so 32 years later and the best they can come up with is a knock-off of ours.

http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-australia-flag-and-new-zealand-flag/

Pretty sure that Aussies and Kiwis can tell the difference. It's the other 194 countries (or 193 depending on how you classify Taiwan) that can get confused.

[gsxr]

Maybe we should FLAG this whole debacle and wait for the new flag chosen by the One World Government once the TPPA is
enacted .

[Banditbandit]

Maybe we should FLAG this whole debacle and wait for the new flag chosen by the One World Government once the TPPA is
enacted .

Given the worlwide opposition - the chances of the TPP being enacted are about zero ...

[oldrider]

Given the worlwide opposition - the chances of the TPP being enacted are about zero ...

But they are and have consulted with the electorate as required and now they will reconsider the electorates wishes and move right along with the original plan!

That's been the format since the 1984 Labour party reforms began! :rolleyes:

[Swoop]

Democracy and voting ain't working.

At least, not from my perspective. ;)
It's not meant to, as it is there to benefit the politicians, not the voters.
As the saying goes "if voting made a difference, it would be outlawed".



John Key won't be at Waitangi this year, the first time a PM has ever missed it (apparently).
Not quite. PM's have not attended at certain times.
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/waitangi-day/21st-century-waitangi-day

[Banditbandit]

But they are and have consulted with the electorate as required and now they will reconsider the electorates wishes and move right along with the original plan!

That's been the format since the 1984 Labour party reforms began! :rolleyes:

Yeah .. maybe Key can sign it (He has to win the next election first) but if Godzone is the only oen to ratify it it's an agreement with no-one ..

Malaysian protest


http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/76194459/thousands-of-malaysians-protest-against-signing-of-tpp-trade-deal

USA Protests


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XLkSYJ4afE

Peru's protests


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxotjV-uQaE

[Katman]

Given the worlwide opposition - the chances of the TPP being enacted are about zero ...

I find it interesting that there has been very little coverage of overseas TPPA protests on the mainstream media.

It's almost like they want us to think that it is only New Zealand who has a problem with it.

I certainly can't see the public unrest amongst the 12 countries diminishing and in that respect I'm becoming a little more hopeful that the whole deal will be canned.

The fact that the TTIP is gaining the same sort of adverse reaction over in Europe certainly helps.

[Madness]

You guys know there's a TPPA-specific thread, huh? I'm trying to be more of a beige pedantic cunt in my old age.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/165722-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Agreement

[Katman]

You guys know there's a TPPA-specific thread, huh? I'm trying to be more of a beige pedantic cunt in my old age.


Thanks bogan.

[Voltaire]

I find it interesting that there has been very little coverage of overseas TPPA protests on the mainstream media.

It's almost like they want us to think that it is only New Zealand who has a problem with it.

I certainly can't see the public unrest amongst the 12 countries diminishing and in that respect I'm becoming a little more hopeful that the whole deal will be canned.

The fact that the TTIP is gaining the same sort of adverse reaction over in Europe certainly helps.

Cuts into Lady Gaga singing at the Super Bowl and other 'news'..

[Banditbandit]

You guys know there's a TPPA-specific thread, huh? I'm trying to be more of a beige pedantic cunt in my old age.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/165722-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Agreement

Yeah .... the flag debate here as linked to the TPPA ... hence the responses .. ya pedantic cunt !!! ;)

[roogazza]

319434

If Key can wear his, here's mine.

[scumdog]

If Key can wear his, here's mine.

Mine too - I've a heap of them.:headbang:

[caseye]

Mine too - I've a heap of them.:headbang:

Same here and long IT WILL Last.
No change coming this time around.

[oldrider]

TPPA is signed - flag debate? - fading quietly to the background - mission accomplished? - outcome doesn't really matter either way! :grouphug:

[Berries]

319434

If Key can wear his, here's mine.
But why post the Australian flag?

[gjm]

TPPA is signed - flag debate? - fading quietly to the background - mission accomplished? - outcome doesn't really matter either way! :grouphug:

TPPA still has two years (or so) to run before it becomes 'actual.' All the signing did was form an agreement between the member states that they would look at the agreed text of the TPPA.

Of course, His glorious leadership John Key-Un only ever discusses about 25% of the text of the agreement, and the sheeple who believe what they see on TV hear all is good.


But why post the Australian flag?

There's always one! :facepalm: :msn-wink:

I was looking at some of the other flags from around the area, Polynesia. Several countries/islands have the Union Flag as a part of their state flag, including Hawaii. I quite like it... It gave me a sense of solidarity. YMMV, of course.

[MarkH]

Yet another supporter of a flag change: https://www.facebook.com/haydenpaddonwrc/?fref=nf

I suspect quite a high percentage of kiwis that travel overseas would support a change of flag, most that oppose the change have no idea of what a crappy flag ours is on the international stage. I've yet to hear even ONE compelling argument for retaining our current flag.

I've also not yet come across anything that leads me to believe there is any link between the flag thing and the TPPA thing.

[Akzle]

Yet another supporter of a flag change: https://www.facebook.com/haydenpaddonwrc/?fref=nf

I suspect quite a high percentage of kiwis that travel overseas would support a change of flag, most that oppose the change have no idea of what a crappy flag ours is on the international stage. I've yet to hear even ONE compelling argument for retaining our current flag.

I've also not yet come across anything that leads me to believe there is any link between the flag thing and the TPPA thing.

well, if the good shepherd hayden paddon says so!




..........BAAAAAAAAAA





"what a crappy flag"..... Seriously, who gives THAT much of a fuck what rag the government flap???
This whole debacle is so much nothing (except legitimising an illegitimate occupying force) how ANYONE can give half a shit about the teatowel fucking astounds me. Is there so little going on in your life?

And, if they dont change the flag, go against your wishes, are you going to either fuck off to another country, or kill yourself?


No? Didn't fucken think so.

[MarkH]

Is there so little going on in your life?

Better to care about our nations flag than to post in a flag thread on the internet about not caring about the flag - now THAT is a real sign of little going on in YOUR life! :bleh:

[Akzle]

Better to care about our nations flag than to post in a flag thread on the internet about not caring about the flag - now THAT is a real sign of little going on in YOUR life! :bleh:

MY nation's flag???

who is claiming to be MY nation now???

[oldrider]

Just a thought - bet they still continue to post up Australia's flag instead of ours - even after our flag has been changed it's just the way it is! :rolleyes:

[gjm]

I've yet to hear even ONE compelling argument for retaining our current flag.

Aside from the oft-mentioned waste of money...

Anyone got a compelling argument for changing it? Other than that some overseas fuckwits who have no impact on us can't tell the difference between four and five stars? Besides, Oz got their flag after NZ.

[MarkH]

Aside from the oft-mentioned waste of money...

Anyone got a compelling argument for changing it? Other than that some overseas fuckwits who have no impact on us can't tell the difference between four and five stars? Besides, Oz got their flag after NZ.

The fact that Oz changed to their flag after we changed to ours - how exactly is that relevant?
Or are you thinking that we have some way of forcing Aussie to change their flag? Because I'm pretty sure that we don't.

Calling overseas people that see a similar flag and don't notice the differences fuckwits may or may not be fair, but I don't see how it is relevant either, the fact that our national flag isn't as easily recognizable as it could be is what matters and surely that is at least some of the point in having a flag?

Waste of money? Don't make me laugh, the cost of this is a pittance in terms of government spending of tax payers money.

[Akzle]

Waste of money? Don't make me laugh, the cost of this is a pittance in terms of government spending of tax payers money.

yet it's THIS that you focus attention on :facepalm:

[PrincessBandit]

I just hope the outcome of the vote is a fricken land slide - one way or the other - to get the bloody thing over and done with. Heaven help us if the vote count is close (or even moderately close) 'cos it'll drag out for who knows how long until those who are determined to change it finally get their way.

[bogan]

Aside from the oft-mentioned waste of money...

Anyone got a compelling argument for changing it? Other than that some overseas fuckwits who have no impact on us can't tell the difference between four and five stars? Besides, Oz got their flag after NZ.

Oz one has six, just for those local fuckwits who can't tell the difference :whistle:

[gjm]

Oz one has six, just for those local fuckwits who can't tell the difference :whistle:

That'll be me. :doh:
Can't say I've ever had much interest in the west island flag. I just know it's not the Kiwi one.

[gjm]

Waste of money? Don't make me laugh, the cost of this is a pittance in terms of government spending of tax payers money.

Please - don't get me started. I don't have enough life left to list all the things, individually or collectively, that could have usefully received some or all of the $26m wasted on this ridiculous charade. We'll start with DHBs who can't update essential patient care equipment (I know of a specific example where less than $10m is required, and the government replied <sic> "we can't afford it"), move past conservation projects that have failed for lack of available funding, and on to a driver education plan to improve road safety that won't happen.

Then there's the 10s of millions that will be needed to actually change the flag. :mad: I wonder where all the new flags would be made?

That said,

I just hope the outcome of the vote is a fricken land slide - one way or the other - to get the bloody thing over and done with. Heaven help us if the vote count is close (or even moderately close) 'cos it'll drag out for who knows how long until those who are determined to change it finally get their way.

I absolutely agree.

[bogan]

Please - don't get me started. I don't have enough life left to list all the things, individually or collectively, that could have usefully received some or all of the $26m wasted on this ridiculous charade.

Like a coffee for every NZ'r? oh wait, it wouldn't even stretch that far...

I bet that 10mil is in a different budget allocation from the 26 though...

[Ocean1]

Please - don't get me started. I don't have enough life left to list all the things, individually or collectively, that could have usefully received some or all of the $26m wasted on this ridiculous charade. We'll start with DHBs who can't update essential patient care equipment (I know of a specific example where less than $10m is required, and the government replied <sic> "we can't afford it"), move past conservation projects that have failed for lack of available funding, and on to a driver education plan to improve road safety that won't happen.

Oh for fuck's sake, your desperate health budget is a record 15.6 BILLION dollars.

And compared to what some of the rest of it's spent on $26M for a flag referendum is a fucking bargain.

[Ocean1]

I've also not yet come across anything that leads me to believe there is any link between the flag thing and the TPPA thing.

There isn't one. But it's all the rabid anti Key brigade can drum up against the change.

[Berries]

I suspect quite a high percentage of kiwis that travel overseas would support a change of flag, most that oppose the change have no idea of what a crappy flag ours is on the international stage.
What a load of shit.



No offence, but that is one big assumption.

[MarkH]

yet it's THIS that you focus attention on :facepalm:

No, no it really isn't.
Could you explain why you think I'm focusing on that?
I suggested it was pretty much a non-issue and you think it is the thing I'm focusing on?
I guess reading comprehension is hard.

[MarkH]

Please - don't get me started. I don't have enough life left to list all the things, individually or collectively, that could have usefully received some or all of the $26m wasted on this ridiculous charade. We'll start with DHBs who can't update essential patient care equipment (I know of a specific example where less than $10m is required, and the government replied <sic> "we can't afford it"), move past conservation projects that have failed for lack of available funding, and on to a driver education plan to improve road safety that won't happen.

Then there's the 10s of millions that will be needed to actually change the flag. :mad: I wonder where all the new flags would be made?


Blah blah blah.

For one thing - the $26m is NOT a reason to not vote to change the flag, that money is spent regardless.

All this fucking bullshit about what else they could do with the money - next you will claim we shouldn't have a general election (costs way more than what a referendum does), so we should maybe just have JK in charge until he dies then?
There are some costs to having a democracy, in my opinion it is better than having the government just decide on a new flag and change it, which is how it worked in most other countries (including Canada) when they have changed their flags.

[MarkH]

What a load of shit.

No offence, but that is one big assumption.

Nope, not even the tiniest assumption.
You might need to read carefully what I typed to understand why though.
I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

[gjm]

Blah blah blah.

For one thing - the $26m is NOT a reason to not vote to change the flag, that money is spent regardless.

All this fucking bullshit about what else they could do with the money - next you will claim we shouldn't have a general election (costs way more than what a referendum does), so we should maybe just have JK in charge until he dies then?
There are some costs to having a democracy, in my opinion it is better than having the government just decide on a new flag and change it, which is how it worked in most other countries (including Canada) when they have changed their flags.

Eloquent. I will be voting, of course.

I assume everyone has read about the 'campaign' meeting that was called by National this morning with regard to the flag referendum? 32 National MPs were invited (those believed to be in support changing the flag), and about 10 attended.

http://cdn.newshub.co.nz/3news/AM/2016/2/17/d7034423-1cb7-4cd3-875f-95ed80723af1/D_MAGGIE_EMAIL_17_02_NEW4.jpg

I thought the referendum was to allow NZ voters to make an informed decision as regards changing the flag. This sounds much more like National trying to persuade people they want to change it.