Flag?

[oldrider]

Do we want/need a flag thread? :scratch: can't seem to find one. :oi-grr:

[Akzle]

Do we want/need a flag thread? :scratch: can't seem to find one. :oi-grr:

had one.
Legitimise the defacto government? No thanks. Sovereign as whale bro.

[Oakie]

Well why not.

Me? I think it's a good discussion to have now that the advertising is about to start.. I guess I'd be in favour of a change if something appropriate was offered that reflected modern NZ.

The only thing I feel strongly about though is the argument that we shouldn't change because it's the flag NZ went to war under. Honour the past but don't let it stop you moving forward.

[AllanB]

Change it - the existing one bores me and does not reflect NZ.

He waits for the Poms to chime in ....... I respond in advance - if the motherland is so great why are you in NZ?

Change it.

[JATZ]

Change it - the existing one bores me and does not reflect NZ.

He waits for the Poms to chime in ....... I respond in advance - if the motherland is so great why are you in NZ?

Change it.

Naah... Leave it. I like it :D

[carbonhed]

Well why not.

Me? I think it's a good discussion to have now that the advertising is about to start.. I guess I'd be in favour of a change if something appropriate was offered that reflected modern NZ.

The only thing I feel strongly about though is the argument that we shouldn't change because it's the flag NZ went to war under. Honour the past but don't let it stop you moving forward.

Likewise.

Looking forward to seeing the new designs.

[Moi]

Change it - the existing one bores me and does not reflect NZ ... Change it.

So what is so wrong with the present flag?

[mashman]

I like a nice bluestone finish.

[Voltaire]

Pick me to be on a Govt committee getting 150k a year, going on junkets overseas to see what others have done in the way of flags.:innocent:

Guess where this flag is from?
http://library.educationworld.net/statefacts/flags/hi_flag_l.gif

[98tls]

Twenty millon + so far:facepalm:Wouldnt that money have been better spent on the children of people that shouldnt have had children in the first place.:facepalm:Sinking ships still a sinking ship no matter what flags flown as it goes down,that aside wasnt it just the other day thousands gathered in memory of those that believed enough in our current flag to give there lives,a lots changed since maybe some things should stay as there were.

[Kickaha]

Guess where this flag is from?
I don't have to guess because I have google

[tigertim20]

really dont see the point of a flag at all.
current one harks back to the royal family, who I sincerely could not give less of a fuck about.
a new one would never represent / meant something to all 'kiwi's" - given that 'kiwi' is an extremely ambiguous term

i see no point nor meaning to a piece of cotton / whatever with a design on it. I dont like most of the people I meet, so why have a flag to point out some kind of arbitrary camaraderie with them?

[AllanB]

Ignore the $ - it is a press wankfest to put you off the real subject.

Do you want to change the flag?

The $ involved while high to you and me working week long to feed the family is a mere drop in the Governments 'lets do a survey/investigation paper bla bla bla'.

If we found out how much was really spent on stupid shit we would be horrified to the point of civil unrest. Then the next Government would do exactly the same ...........

So - do you want to change the flag?

[Oakie]

thousands gathered in memory of those that believed enough in our current flag to give there lives

Now I was one of those who gathered last Saturday morning but I don't think those who we remembered fought because of anything to do with NZ apart from the "Where Britain goes, NZ goes" thing. NZ was at no threat in WW1 apart from a few hundred Germans on Samoa who i believe surrendered without a shot. Similalry, WWII. The Germans weren't coming to invade us but off our boys went to fight them in Europe because Mother-England asked. In WWII Japan was a realistic threat to NZ and many, including my father went and did their bit. My Dad served in the RNZAF but flying out of Singapore, defending the last bastion of the Britsh Empire in South East Asia. The point I make is that they didn't fight defending our flag. They fought defending the Union Jack even though they may have fought under our current flag.

Other part is that for many, especially at the start of WWI, it was just a great adventure, a chance to see the world for free.

[scumdog]

Do we want/need a flag thread? :scratch: can't seem to find one. :oi-grr:

Nup.

A waste of time and money buggering around suggesting a new one let alone actually mandating we have a new one.

Why bother....:rolleyes:

[puddytat]

Do a poll....bro.

[Katman]

If we are to have a new one I could live with this.

<img src="http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1391130603/689/9671689_600x400.jpg"/>

[scumdog]

If we are to have a new one I could live with this.



Durka-durka-durka....

[IkieBikie]

Nup.

A waste of time and money buggering around suggesting a new one let alone actually mandating we have a new one.

Why bother....:rolleyes:

Because the police allegiance to the old one seems to have gone!!!

[Swoop]

No.

The current one isn't broken.

[Smifffy]

Keep it....

[Katman]

It's time to leave Queenie's boobie alone guys.

[admenk]

He waits for the Poms to chime in ....... I respond in advance - if the motherland is so great why are you in NZ?

Speaking as a Pom.....feel free to change it, it's your flag after all. It looks a bit too much like the Aussie one for me, and yes, you don't really need the Union Jack on it anymore do you. Just please don't pick the All Blacks silver fern thingy - surely New Zealand is more than a rugby team. What's wrong with the United Tribes of NZ flag?

[Hitcher]

"Going to war under the flag" is a bit of a myth.

The current national flag has only been official since 1902, so that takes out any association with the Boer War and earlier conflicts.

WW1, if flags were involved they would most probably have been UK flags.

WW2, many New Zealand servicemen, particularly aircrew in Europe, flew for the RAF or Fleet Air Arm, so again no NZ flag to "fight under" for those gallant folk.

Canadians changed their flag in 1965 to their current model. Canadian regiments have considerably more rigorous pride in their combat history than those of many other nations, as the battles of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach will attest, and were still able to make the switch to a new ensign more fittingly representing their national identity than the colonial cloth it replaced.

[Smifffy]

"Going to war under the flag" is a bit of a myth.

The current national flag has only been official since 1902, so that takes out any association with the Boer War and earlier conflicts.

WW1, if flags were involved they would most probably have been UK flags.

WW2, many New Zealand servicemen, particularly aircrew in Europe, flew for the RAF or Fleet Air Arm, so again no NZ flag to "fight under" for those gallant folk.

Canadians changed their flag in 1965 to their current model. Canadian regiments have considerably more rigorous pride in their combat history than those of many other nations, as the battles of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach will attest, and were still able to make the switch to a new ensign more fittingly representing their national identity than the colonial cloth it replaced.

Good points. Change it quick.

[oldguy]

Will changing the flag make us patriotic?

if we go with a new flag, it would have to Incorporate parts of these two flags, who we now Pledge our Allegiance too. well almost.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=311482&d=1430819074

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=311483&d=1430819075

why fix something that ain't broke

[Smifffy]

Will changing the flag make us patriotic?

if we go with a new flag, it would have to Incorporate parts of these two flags, who we now Pledge our Allegiance too. well almost.



why fix something that ain't broke

Good points. Keep it.

[mada]

We need to spend millions on a new flag to supposedly reflect our identity (when the majority don't have any problem with the present one)... but we'll still keep spending millions on royal visits too and keep the Queen as our head of state. :facepalm:

If it's going to be anything else it should be the original flag Aotearoa had back in 1835:

http://www.relatingtolife.com/cms_images/sovereign_flag_bordered_400.jpg

But that would cause too much butthurt to many Pakeha.

[Katman]

But that would cause too much butthurt to many Pakeha.

Plus it looks fucking ugly.

[Ocean1]

Just please don't pick the All Blacks silver fern thingy - surely New Zealand is more than a rugby team.

Think you'll find it was a NZ military symbol before being adopted by most national sports teams.

And it's probably the single most recognised and respected Kiwi icon, whereas the antecedents of the bastardised blue ensign have little to do with NZ.

[mada]

In regards to WW1 - many kiwi's knew which flag they wanted to represent them.

WW1 - 1917 Passchendaele / Ypres - funeral of Lt. Colonel George Augustus King

http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/image/?imageId=images-45873&profile=access

[Ocean1]

We need to spend millions on a new flag to supposedly reflect our identity (when the majority don't have any problem with the present one)... but we'll still keep spending millions on royal visits too and keep the Queen as our head of state. :facepalm:

If it's going to be anything else it should be the original flag Aotearoa had back in 1835:



But that would cause too much butthurt to many Pakeha.

I could live with that, given that it's the united tribes of New Zealand flag. Except it's ugly.

On the other hand, how many Maori might be caused butthurt by Pakeha "assuming ownership" of their flag?

[Smifffy]

The NZ referendum voting public will vote whichever way their favourite talkback host, newspaper, manufactured celebrity, or politician tells them to.

[mada]

Plus it looks fucking ugly.

True that.

I quite like this one which really reflects our strong sovereignty and fortitude at the moment

http://s13.postimg.org/nqt3xbbtz/nz_new_flag.png

[PrincessBandit]

If we are to have a new one I could live with this.



Funny you post a pic of that one - I was going to. I rather like it, if we had to change I too could live with that. Still prefer the blue but then the red white and black of the tino rangatiratanga colours would be missing.
Maybe black would be ok as long as we don't get mistaken for they-who-shall-not-be-named...

[awa355]

I had understood that Key had bought a new flag back from the states, a gift from the white house. Lots of red, white and blues stripes on it with heaps of neat stars twinkling up in one corner. :cool::nya:

[jonbuoy]

Change it - the existing one bores me and does not reflect NZ.

He waits for the Poms to chime in ....... I respond in advance - if the motherland is so great why are you in NZ?

Change it.

They won´t. I doubt it will get more than a sound bite on the UK news.

[Grumph]

I had understood that Key had bought a new flag back from the states, a gift from the white house. Lots of red, white and blues stripes on it with heaps of neat stars twinkling up in one corner. :cool::nya:

Could be a conflict of interest there...I hear McCully is bringing one back with him from China....

[MisterD]

He waits for the Poms to chime in ....... I respond in advance - if the motherland is so great why are you in NZ?

Married a Kiwi that I met in London and got imported. Plus the Motherland had been completely fucked over Blair's mob and Clark hadn't managed to wreck NZ quite so conclusively. :niceone:

I don't know why we're bothering to discuss this though, if the referendum rejects a change, our self-appointed elites will keep asking the question until we give the "right" answer. That's why the two polls are structured like they are, it maximises the change of a change.

The Union flag is a symbol of the past in both countries though, so may as well get it over with and start getting used to whatever maorified corporate brand we get stuck with.

[Asher]

I couldn't care what the flag looks like, it's nothing more than an international name tag.
What pisses me off is that changing the flag is completely unnecessary. The government is facing a stalling economy, increasing debt, loss of sovereign rights, dilution of democracy, increasing inequality, unaffordable housing and much more yet they are brushing these much more important issues under the carpet and instead focusing on this bullshit.

[Banditbandit]

In regards to WW1 - many kiwi's knew which flag they wanted to represent them.



Kiwi soldiers fought "for God, King and Country".

The idea of "fighting for the flag" comes from the US of 'merika ...

[Oscar]

We need to spend millions on a new flag to supposedly reflect our identity (when the majority don't have any problem with the present one)... but we'll still keep spending millions on royal visits too and keep the Queen as our head of state. :facepalm:

If it's going to be anything else it should be the original flag Aotearoa had back in 1835:


But that would cause too much butthurt to many Pakeha.

I like it.

[Reckless]

Don't mind a change fresh start and all, commonwealth is dead these days the world has changed.
We can still remember the fallen under the old and new flags on special days and educate our kids (as the 100th anniversary has just proved).

I'm up for a change. Don't mind the Fern its better than a blind near extinct bird.
I dont think the All Blacks think the fern is their brand I think they it is a symbol of our country on their breasts.
And by all accounts they have done us proud over the years and portrayed our symbol in the highest regard as all/most teams have.
To have it on the flag and emblazoned on the shirts of our champions is a good thing imho

Just hope some arty farty dickhead doesnt pick something for all the wrong reasons that 70% of us hate?

Quite like this Idea. Simple effective, Blue of the sea, our fern, Southern cross on the black we seem to have inherited/choosen as our colour, modern, everlasting. Done :)

311485

[puddytat]

Quite like this Idea



Best one so far....

[Voltaire]

How come one news item says the flag belongs in the colonial past....then spends the next ten minutes on a new princess.....make up your fecking minds.

We should ask the Chinese Govt what they would like as we seem to tiptoe round them.

+1 on the fern/Southern Cross one if we have to change.

[AllanB]

If we are to have a new one I could live with this.



I like. Nod to the past and will like cool on our warships.

[oldrider]

Don't mind a change fresh start and all, commonwealth is dead these days the world has changed.
We can still remember the fallen under the old and new flags on special days and educate our kids (as the 100th anniversary has just proved).

I'm up for a change. Don't mind the Fern its better than a blind near extinct bird.
I dont think the All Blacks think the fern is their brand I think they it is a symbol of our country on their breasts.
And by all accounts they have done us proud over the years and portrayed our symbol in the highest regard as all/most teams have.
To have it on the flag and emblazoned on the shirts of our champions is a good thing imho

Just hope some arty farty dickhead doesnt pick something for all the wrong reasons that 70% of us hate?

Quite like this Idea. Simple effective, Blue of the sea, our fern, Southern cross on the black we seem to have inherited/choosen as our colour, modern, everlasting. Done :)



I rest in the "no need to change it" camp but quite like the so called "Maori flag" and find this one appealing if there must be a change!

Simply don't trust Key motivation for the whole flag change thrust at all - waste of money and time IMHO. There are more important issues!

[Taxythingy]

Don't change the flag - change the government.

(Hint: They are trying to distract you.)

[Taxythingy]

Current flag = some people who don't like it.
New flag = some different people who don't like it.

Achievement = fuck all. Now go sit in front of the telly like a good citizen.

[5ive]

Quite like this Idea.


Best one so far....

Agree :niceone:

Probably won't get it though, as they'll get some 'politically correct artist' to design something the majority hate.

[PrincessBandit]

Yep, the ole' "can't please all the people all of the time" catch.

Quite frankly I too am in the 'why bother' category; the money is sorely needed elsewhere.

At the end of the day TPTB use the term binding referendum - ha ha ha ha ha what a joke - they've managed to always get to ignore the ones that don't suit them...

[Oscar]

Don't change the flag - change the government.

(Hint: They are trying to distract you.)


Current flag = some people who don't like it.
New flag = some different people who don't like it.

Achievement = fuck all. Now go sit in front of the telly like a good citizen.

Just what we need on this site, another patronizing know-it-all leftie conspracy theorist.
I think the Russian Judge gave you points off for not using the word “sheeple”.

[Taxythingy]

Just what we need on this site, another patronizing know-it-all leftie conspracy theorist.
I think the Russian Judge gave you points off for not using the word “sheeple”.

It was mostly in jest. And I do try to avoid words like 'sheeple' or those with dollar signs in them.

I do think it is a big waste of time, but then I'm mostly in the don't change it camp. Give me a decent alternative and justification, and I will consider it.

[Gadget1]

Yep, the ole' "can't please all the people all of the time" catch.

Quite frankly I too am in the 'why bother' category; the money is sorely needed elsewhere.

At the end of the day TPTB use the term binding referendum - ha ha ha ha ha what a joke - they've managed to always get to ignore the ones that don't suit them...


I'm in the "why bother" category as well. Maybe change the "can't please all the people..." phrase to "We hear the people but do whatever we want anyway".

[Banditbandit]

I'm in the "why bother" category as well. Maybe change the "can't please all the people..." phrase to "We hear the people but do whatever we want anyway".

What if the referendum votes more than 50% to change the flag ???

[FJRider]

What if the referendum votes more than 50% to change the flag ???

As per usual ... the Government has NO obligation (or requirement) to comply with the result of any public referendum ... if it so chooses.

[mada]

Can't afford to feed hungry kids (who have no fault or responsibility for their predicament), but we can afford to feed all the PM's men and a new "nice to have" flag. New Zealand that's what we stand for - fuck yeah! :first:

[mada]

As per usual ... the Government has NO obligation (or requirement) to comply with the result of any public referendum ... if it so chooses.

The government will say the public referendum was the required "consultation" and then push it through under urgency on the basis that the "Canadians" changed theirs without majority support.

[FJRider]

The government will say the public referendum was the required "consultation" and then push it through under urgency on the basis that the "Canadians" changed theirs without majority support.

My point is ... the Government does needs to say anything at all. And can change it (or not) with no public imput/say at all.

And any result from referendums is not binding.

[Oscar]

It was mostly in jest. And I do try to avoid words like 'sheeple' or those with dollar signs in them.

I do think it is a big waste of time, but then I'm mostly in the don't change it camp. Give me a decent alternative and justification, and I will consider it.

I agree with you, it is a complete waste of time, and also indicative that Key has finally lost it.

[Latte]

We need to spend millions on a new flag to supposedly reflect our identity (when the majority don't have any problem with the present one)... but we'll still keep spending millions on royal visits too and keep the Queen as our head of state. :facepalm:

If it's going to be anything else it should be the original flag Aotearoa had back in 1835:


But that would cause too much butthurt to many Pakeha.

Looks like the St George cross with some stars added, seems more "Mother England" than what we have already.

[Ocean1]

Quite like this Idea. Simple effective, Blue of the sea, our fern, Southern cross on the black we seem to have inherited/choosen as our colour, modern, everlasting. Done :)



Best one so far....

I reckon, be an excellent choice.

[Gadget1]

My point is ... the Government does needs to say anything at all. And can change it (or not) with no public imput/say at all.

And any result from referendums is not binding.


This one is a binding referendum, ie: it's going though a legal process. You're right though, the Government could change the flag without consultation. So why's it happening and $26 million wtf?

[PrincessBandit]

This one is a binding referendum, ie: it's going though a legal process. You're right though, the Government could change the flag without consultation. So why's it happening and $26 million wtf?

The thing is, the government will only listen to a referendum and be seen to be acting on the result if it suits them. Even if the overwhelming response is "no, leave it as it is, we the majority (who bothered having our say) want to keep the existing flag" the govt will still give the royal one finger salute and change it anyway, if that's what they want to do.

[Smifffy]

There's a saying that kiwi voters don't vote new governments in, they vote old governments out. It looks to be much the same with this flag debate. It's not like there is a flag that a clear majority like and use, that has become a de-facto flag and is being considered to replace the current one.

It's more like "Ah I feel like it's time for a change - let's get a few quotes from some graphic designers and a couple of kindergartens and see what we can come up with"

[Banditbandit]

The government will say the public referendum was the required "consultation" and then push it through under urgency on the basis that the "Canadians" changed theirs without majority support.


My point is ... the Government does needs to say anything at all. And can change it (or not) with no public imput/say at all.

And any result from referendums is not binding.


The thing is, the government will only listen to a referendum and be seen to be acting on the result if it suits them. Even if the overwhelming response is "no, leave it as it is, we the majority (who bothered having our say) want to keep the existing flag" the govt will still give the royal one finger salute and change it anyway, if that's what they want to do.

This is a BINDING referendum - see the legislation ...

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2015/0008/latest/DLM6404957.html?search=qs_act%40bill%40regulation% 40deemedreg_flag+referendum_resel_25_h&p=1&sr=1

[PrincessBandit]

This is a BINDING referendum - see the legislation ...

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2015/0008/latest/DLM6404957.html?search=qs_act%40bill%40regulation% 40deemedreg_flag+referendum_resel_25_h&p=1&sr=1

Hmmmm, yeah, we'll see... If it's not the answer they're looking for, they'll keep at it until they get the one they want :msn-wink: Maybe not next year, or the year after, but it will come up again; you can count on that!

[Swoop]

At the end of the day TPTB use the term binding referendum
This is a "binding" one, as they ALL are.

The bureaucrats bind up the public and then fuck them over. BDSM really. The winners: politicians who will have to travel far and wide to promote the new branding.




Reckless' example image (censored) is rather nice.

[gjm]

It's a complete and utter waste of money, money that could be much better spent on something useful.

John Key wants a legacy. Something he can talk about as guest speaker ($100k per dinner) when he's moved (back) to the US.

Nie to see Part 1, Clause 3 privides for a decision as to whether we actually want a new flag or not. My understanding was that the first referendum was to choose which new flag you wanted, not if you wanted a new flag? Political manipulation at it's most obvious.

[98tls]

It's a complete and utter waste of money, money that could be much better spent on something useful.

John Key wants a legacy. Something he can talk about as guest speaker ($100k per dinner) when he's moved (back) to the US.

Nie to see Part 1, Clause 3 privides for a decision as to whether we actually want a new flag or not. My understanding was that the first referendum was to choose which new flag you wanted, not if you wanted a new flag? Political manipulation at it's most obvious.

Still its a bit cheaper than Clarkes legacy.

[FJRider]

This is a BINDING referendum - see the legislation ...



The Bill you posted a link to .. has passed it's first reading. Plenty more hoops for the Government to jump through before it becomes Legislation.

And plenty of "Opt out" options for Government if it is passed.

Although a referendum may carry great political weight ... and a government may choose to act on the basis of the results obtained ... such results are non-binding in the absence of legislation (requiring a government to act on the basis of the results obtained). In the absence of binding legislation ... the citizens of this country would not be entitled to a legal remedy in the event of non-compliance with the results. If a government was to hold a referendum and then ignore the results ... the remedy would be in the political and not the legal arena.

[gjm]

... the citizens of this country would not be entitled to a legal remedy in the event of non-compliance with the results. If a government was to hold a referendum and then ignore the results ... the remedy would be in the political and not the legal arena.

Which basically means the government can do whatever they like in regard to this, including spending $6 of every single forum member's money on something pointless.

It's a distraction, for heaven's sake. While we bicker about this (and $26m is pocket change to the National party) they're selling NZ overseas before, like the rats they are, leaving a sinking ship.

[Smifffy]

"I have no intention of placing my fate in the hands of men whose only qualification is that they managed to con a block of people to vote for them.”
― Mario Puzo, The Godfather

[pete376403]

Still its a bit cheaper than Clarkes legacy.
What was that?

[Akzle]

ill just point out, as i did in the last flag thred, that the government is defacto and unlawful, the ENSIGN used as and commonly miscalled 'flag', is similarly.
Only one flag has received royal assent.
A referendum on such a matter may legalise/legitimise an otherwise unlawful institution.
Damn crown jews.

[Laava]

ill just point out, as i did in the last flag thred, that the government is defacto and unlawful, the ENSIGN used as and commonly miscalled 'flag', is similarly.
Only one flag has received royal assent.
A referendum on such a matter may legalise/legitimise an otherwise unlawful institution.
Damn crown jews.

Wales. You bore for it.

[scumdog]

ill just point out, as i did in the last flag thred, that the government is defacto and unlawful, the ENSIGN used as and commonly miscalled 'flag', is similarly.
Only one flag has received royal assent.
A referendum on such a matter may legalise/legitimise an otherwise unlawful institution.
Damn crown jews.

Fuck-orff, bore-ring .....:rolleyes:

[Erelyes]

Short history of flag.
- 1834: United Tribes pick NZ's first flag.
- 1840: Treat of Waitangi, white folk go 'Fuck off, that's shit' and replace with Union flag.
- 1902: After a bit of tedious BS, current flag adopted.

Since 1902 we've not had any form of vote or referendum to change it. Yes, it's costing $X million dollars to hold the referendum. People see that as a waste of money. I see it as a 100 year investment.
I've found that most people against spending the money are against changing the flag. :corn:

Personally I think our current one is insipid as flags go, and despite being born and bred I struggle to identify with it. So I'm all for change.

[Smifffy]

Shirley if people felt that strongly, they'd be flying alternative flags and a clear alternative would be seen. All I see are the Tino Rangitiira flag, the silver fern, the kiwi with the Taiaha and, out front of Crasher's place, the rainbow flag.

[Akzle]

aaand ignorant old white gits in 3...2...:

Wales. You bore for it.


Fuck-orff, bore-ring .....:rolleyes:

[gjm]

Short history of flag.
- 1834: United Tribes pick NZ's first flag.
- 1840: Treat of Waitangi, white folk go 'Fuck off, that's shit' and replace with Union flag.
- 1902: After a bit of tedious BS, current flag adopted.

Since 1902 we've not had any form of vote or referendum to change it. Yes, it's costing $X million dollars to hold the referendum. People see that as a waste of money. I see it as a 100 year investment.
I've found that most people against spending the money are against changing the flag. :corn:

Fair enough. I still say it's a waste of money and a political tactic rather than anything even vaguely altruistic.


Personally I think our current one is insipid as flags go, and despite being born and bred I struggle to identify with it. So I'm all for change.

I disagree.

But...

At least you've made an case for changing it, which is more than I have seen anyone, government or public, do so far. :niceone:

And the United Tribes flag isn't so bad.

[98tls]

What say we go with a welfare based theme that way anyone out there still finding working a struggle in the big wide world might get some direction,children free of charge must be a draw card.

[Gadget1]

Short history of flag.
- 1834: United Tribes pick NZ's first flag.
- 1840: Treat of Waitangi, white folk go 'Fuck off, that's shit' and replace with Union flag.
- 1902: After a bit of tedious BS, current flag adopted.

Since 1902 we've not had any form of vote or referendum to change it. Yes, it's costing $X million dollars to hold the referendum. People see that as a waste of money. I see it as a 100 year investment.
I've found that most people against spending the money are against changing the flag. :corn:

Personally I think our current one is insipid as flags go, and despite being born and bred I struggle to identify with it. So I'm all for change.


Lol, short history and wrong history.

It was only one "white folk", Governor Hobson who took the flag down. Earlier James Busby (a pakeha in the official position of British Resident) had supported the United Tribes choice of flag.

Why are we paying $26 million when under the Flags Emblems and Names Protection Act, it only takes a majority vote in Parliament to change the flag?

[Laava]

aaand ignorant old white gits in 3...2...:

Tell us about your fuel economy today Robby? That will make a rivetting tale!

[Akzle]

Tell us about your fuel economy today Robby? That will make a rivetting tale!

rivetting enough for you to find it. :niceone:

[mada]

What was that?

Dontcha know every problem in our country was due to Helen Clark... even if National ruled for another 20 years, we'll still be falling back on the "Labour had nine long years".:yes:

[Laava]

rivetting enough for you to find it. :niceone:

Ironically you just don't get it. Again. Yawn

[mada]

Lol, short history and wrong history.

It was only one "white folk", Governor Hobson who took the flag down. Earlier James Busby (a pakeha in the official position of British Resident) had supported the United Tribes choice of flag.

Why are we paying $26 million when under the Flags Emblems and Names Protection Act, it only takes a majority vote in Parliament to change the flag?

$26 million dollars is pretty cheap for stirring up patriotic sentiment that will distract everyone from all the troubles in NZ for a two year period.

If it got passed now, there would be no distraction for the populous. Unless John Key suggested what Mike Hosking was saying the other nite - that we should host the Olympics... lets follow the Greeks eh :weird:

[mada]

Fuck-orff, bore-ring .....:rolleyes:

This should be our new flag :msn-wink:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Flag_of_New_Zealand_Police.svg/1024px-Flag_of_New_Zealand_Police.svg.png

[FJRider]

$26 million dollars is pretty cheap ...

That would fund the current Welfare system for another week or two ... :pinch:

[Katman]

And the United Tribes flag isn't so bad.....

....for something that looks like it's been drawn by a five year old.

[Gadget1]

$26 million dollars is pretty cheap for stirring up patriotic sentiment that will distract everyone from all the troubles in NZ for a two year period.

If it got passed now, there would be no distraction for the populous. Unless John Key suggested what Mike Hosking was saying the other nite - that we should host the Olympics... lets follow the Greeks eh :weird:


Yeah, it's only money, and our "rock star economy" has plenty. Where's that budget surplus Bill English?

[Akzle]

Ironically you just don't get it. Again. Yawn

fuken yawn alright. But not for me.
And perhaps you should leave irony to those with more...iq.

[mashman]

Ironically you just don't get it. Again. Yawn

Here's all you need to know hoss.

https://theselvedgeyard.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/levis-travis-ad-1981-levis-for-women-commercial.jpg?w=700

[Smifffy]

$26 million dollars is pretty cheap for stirring up patriotic sentiment that will distract everyone from all the troubles in NZ for a two year period.

If it got passed now, there would be no distraction for the populous. Unless John Key suggested what Mike Hosking was saying the other nite - that we should host the Olympics... lets follow the Greeks eh :weird:

No doubt Mike Hosking will have a number of fans that think that is a great idea. As I said before, the NZ public will vote as they are told to by their favourite manufactured 'celebrity'

[Laava]

fuken yawn alright. But not for me.
And perhaps you should leave irony to those with more...iq.
You not getting less boring. Maybe you should go out and ride your motorbike.

[Smifffy]

Yeah, it's only money, and our "rock star economy" has plenty. Where's that budget surplus Bill English?

Maybe he can sell another gold sword?

[Laava]

Here's all you need to know hoss.



Ah, I see, so that is his problem

[mashman]

Ah, I see, so that is his problem

I see it worked a treat :shifty:

[bogan]

All those people saying ignore the flag referendum cos that's what they want you to think about, are giving them what they want; ie, you're here thinking about it :sherlock:. Just smash that shit out, change it to something mint as, and be done with it. You know it'll just keep cropping up otherwise. That fern and souther cross gets my vote, the maori union symbol just doesn't give the right symbology imo.


And perhaps you should leave irony to those with more...iq.

Now that, is ironic. :killingme

[Laava]

I see it worked a treat :shifty:

Feeling a bit bitchy tonight bro? Ocean not giving you enough love?

[Laava]

Now that, is ironic. :killingme

I couldn't be bothered explaining it to him. He is way to narcissistic to possibly think it might apply to him.

[mashman]

Feeling a bit bitchy tonight bro? Ocean not giving you enough love?

lol... t'was not the intent used when I wrote it. Ocean :killingme

[Gadget1]

Just smash that shit out, change it to something mint as, and be done with it.


Lol, Bogan speak. I laughed when I read about the guy who did a PHD in Boganology.

[Gadget1]

I couldn't be bothered explaining it to him. He is way to narcissistic to possibly think it might apply to him.


Heh, he's probably paranoid we're posting about him as well.

[Winston001]

The Silver Fern looks nice to us Kiwis because we know what it is. But most foreigners see a white feather which is pretty much what it looks like. Not very symbolic.

A stylised Kiwi might work even if nobody else knows what it is.

Think about other countries flags: there are very few which are immediately recognisable. Stars and stripes, maple leaf, hammer and sickle, red sun...dunno about others.

We are living in a global age where the significance of flags is diminished so all in all, I don't think a change is worth while.

[puddytat]

How about a FOR SALE sign ?

Everybody has a price, its just a question of how much.

[Reckless]

How about a FOR SALE sign ?

Now that made me chuckle :killingme and soooo true :weep:

But I'm still goin for the white feather Winston

311525

[ellipsis]

...how about a blank white flag with black tassels...stitched on with red cotton. of course...

[puddytat]

or a grey blanket festooned with beads & a rifle embroidered on it in the middle...

[Berries]

Change it - the existing one bores me and does not reflect NZ.

He waits for the Poms to chime in ....... I respond in advance - if the motherland is so great why are you in NZ?

Change it.
Ha ha, my problem with the flag is that it is the same as Australia. Well, one has four stars and one has five, and yet when I look out the window I see hundreds. Meaningless, half the world can see the Crux. No idea why you are blaming the Brits though, surely you fuckers came up with the idea?

If you really want to reflect NZ what are you going to do? A black flag shaped like a wifebeater with a daggy sheeps arse on it or the white feather version?

[FJRider]

... If you really want to reflect NZ what are you going to do? A black flag shaped like a wifebeater with a daggy sheeps arse on it or the white feather version?

As I recall .. submissions are closed.

Did YOU submit one .. ??

[Grumph]

As I recall .. submissions are closed.

Did YOU submit one .. ??

Are you confusing the real world with KB again ?

Combining some ideas from here then, half stars and stripes, half plain red, large "for sale" in black across the lot....and of course tassels. Tassels in virgin lambswool of course.

[Voltaire]

How about a FOR SALE sign ?

Everybody has a price, its just a question of how much.

Maybe offer space for large corporations to advertise, like Fonterra.

As for the fern looking like a feather

Could just have sheep on it, most people I met overseas seemed to associated NZ with them.

Dang....its been thought of already.

http://img.aasd.com.au/34161970.jpg

[oldrider]

Now that made me chuckle :killingme and soooo true :weep:

But I'm still goin for the white feather Winston


Quite like that one - but!

It's not the flag that makes the nation - it's the nation that makes the flag - if we want respect for ours - we have to earn it - is that what's wrong currently?

We had our current flag before Australia had theirs - how come theirs (supposedly) overshadows ours? - is the answer in the national mirror?

If we only change the flag - we might have to do it again every year until we finally get the country sorted? - just saying just saying! :scratch:

[Banditbandit]

Quite like that one - but!

It's not the flag that makes the nation - it's the nation that makes the flag - if we want respect for ours - we have to earn it - is that what's wrong currently?

We had our current flag before Australia had theirs - how come theirs (supposedly) overshadows ours? - is the answer in the national mirror?

If we only change the flag - we might have to do it again every year until we finally get the country sorted? - just saying just saying! :scratch:

I agree .. it made me think: "what do we need a flag for?" Apart from having an ensign on our ships so they are not considered pirates.

But I think that if we can figure out the answer to the question, then we MIGHT be some way to figuring out what our flag should look like ...

[Voltaire]

I agree .. it made me think: "what do we need a flag for?" Apart from having an ensign on our ships so they are not considered pirates.

But I think that if we can figure out the answer to the question, then we MIGHT be some way to figuring out what our flag should look like ...


We would look pretty silly carrying a pole around in the Olympic opening ceremony.:rolleyes:
http://www.odt.co.nz/files/featured_gallery/2012/07/2012_07_27t223516z_532623128_lm2e87r1qqhx3_rtrmadp _501349c2a3.JPG

What that bloke in white carrying?

[Akzle]

What that bloke in white carrying?

box of codys and his dole cheque?

[5ive]

box of codys and his dole cheque?

Stop projecting m8

[Gadget1]

Stop projecting m8


He can't help it, it's his go-to projection.

[Akzle]

you fags would go honda for me in a white suit.

[ellipsis]

Quite like that one - but!

It's not the flag that makes the nation - it's the nation that makes the flag - if we want respect for ours - we have to earn it - is that what's wrong currently?

We had our current flag before Australia had theirs - how come theirs (supposedly) overshadows ours? - is the answer in the national mirror?

If we only change the flag - we might have to do it again every year until we finally get the country sorted? -


...hmmm, that's a complex issue...

[Berries]

As I recall .. submissions are closed.

Did YOU submit one .. ??
No. It is one of those subjects where I don't give a fuck but am happy to sit on the sideline pointing. I can well understand the desire to drop the union flag from the corner but you will never come up with a design that is acceptable to everyone so to be honest I cannot understand the big waste of money. Of course if changed the flag should be black to reflect all that childish Tall Black, All Black, Short Black bullshit you do over here but that was only ever going to look like the Jolly Roger until ISIS took it over.

Here's my choice. Relevant and respectful.

[scumdog]

you fags would go honda for me in a white suit.

It's all about you Rob...again!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Akzle]

It's all about you Rob...again!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

you say that like it ever wasnt :rolleyes:

[FJRider]

you fags would go honda for me in a white suit.

The only interest would be ... if you're getting buried in it.

And we'd only attend the funeral ... to make sure you are actually dead.

[gjm]

Anyone seen the standfor website?

Lots of people saying they want to keep the current flag, and that the money can be better spent elsewhere.

[caseye]

The only interest would be ... if you're getting buried in it.

And we'd only attend the funeral ... to make sure you are actually dead.

Ahmen!
Too short, oh well, it's the thought that counts, they say.

[scumdog]

Anyone seen the standfor website?

Lots of people saying they want to keep the current flag, and that the money can be better spent elsewhere.

And that lot of people are right!:2thumbsup

[Berries]

Anyone seen the standfor website?
Here's the link for those interested - stanfor (http://www.sanford.co.nz/)

[oldrider]

Here's the link for those interested - stanfor (http://www.sanford.co.nz/)


Wont open - did you spell it correctly?

[gjm]

Here's the link for those interested - stanfor (http://www.sanford.co.nz/)



Wont open - did you spell it correctly?

Lol

www.standfor.co.nz

[Berries]

Wont open - did you spell it correctly?
Something fishy is going on.

[Hitcher]

Whatever design is chosen, there should be an accompanying edict that our ensign should henceforth be referred to as the "Fleg". This would provide a great point of difference with other nations, as well as a conversation starter for New Zealanders at home and abroad.

[oldrider]

Whatever design is chosen, there should be an accompanying edict that our ensign should henceforth be referred to as the "Fleg". This would provide a great point of difference with other nations, as well as a conversation starter for New Zealanders at home and abroad.

You are suggesting we (NZ) take on a South African accent? - :oi-grr:

[frogfeaturesFZR]

You are suggesting we (NZ) take on a South African accent? - :oi-grr:

Because they made such a great job of stuffing up THEIR country, they're all coming over here, and telling us what we're doing wrong....:blank:

[scumdog]

Because they made such a great job of stuffing up THEIR country, they're all coming over here, and telling us what we're doing wrong....:blank:

Most Yarpies I met have been keen to point out what NZ is doing right!:yes:

[frogfeaturesFZR]

The ones up here seem to think if the 'old' South Africa was transplanted here, all crimes could be reduced to next to zero. Evidentally all crime is due to the 'Asian invasion'
Having said that, they all talk about how wonderful South Africa is, and how much they miss it.
Coupled to them running NZ down, it always makes me ask them WTF are they doing here ?
Most say they're doing their 2 years since getting PR, before moving to Oz.
As Rob Muldoon said, thus raising the IQ's of both countries.
Actually I've met some bloody good Saffers, weird thing is they're all 'coloured'.

[ruaphu]

Quite like this idea ]

yep not a bad effort that one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mashman]

We have a winner. Cartoon from the herald or some such newwsy thing

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMJvU0sUsAA28y7.jpg

[Blackbird]

Most Yarpies I met have been keen to point out what NZ is doing right!:yes:

I worked in the pulp and paper industry pre-retirement and it attracted a heap of South Africans in the late 80's. Most of them (how do I say this politely) were stereotypical Afrikaaners who weren't too keen on mixing with the Maori and Pacific Islanders on the payroll. The majority of them ended up moving to Oz. From the 90's onwards, it was noticeable that the South African recruits were much more laid back and fair-minded. They were sorry to leave the country of their birth but with the state of the economy and crime rate, they couldn't see a future for their kids. They fitted in really well. Maybe it was because there was no enclave like on the North Shore :rolleyes:

[oldrider]

[QUOTE=mashman;1130890771]We have a winner. Cartoon from the herald or some such newwsy thing



A fitting emblem for a country turning in ever diminishing circles! - Right on track to disappear up it's own arse! - :bye:

[jonbuoy]

I worked in the pulp and paper industry pre-retirement and it attracted a heap of South Africans in the late 80's. Most of them (how do I say this politely) were stereotypical Afrikaaners who weren't too keen on mixing with the Maori and Pacific Islanders on the payroll. The majority of them ended up moving to Oz. From the 90's onwards, it was noticeable that the South African recruits were much more laid back and fair-minded. They were sorry to leave the country of their birth but with the state of the economy and crime rate, they couldn't see a future for their kids. They fitted in really well. Maybe it was because there was no enclave like on the North Shore :rolleyes:

You mean you judged each person as an individual and didn't stereotype based on heritage?!:eek5: That's a very open minded Un-Kiwi thing to do.

[Tazz]

I worked in the pulp and paper industry pre-retirement and it attracted a heap of South Africans in the late 80's. Most of them (how do I say this politely) were stereotypical Afrikaaners who weren't too keen on mixing with the Maori and Pacific Islanders on the payroll. The majority of them ended up moving to Oz. From the 90's onwards, it was noticeable that the South African recruits were much more laid back and fair-minded. They were sorry to leave the country of their birth but with the state of the economy and crime rate, they couldn't see a future for their kids. They fitted in really well. Maybe it was because there was no enclave like on the North Shore :rolleyes:

Yep! All the SA's I've worked with have been raging good bastards (and their family!) whom are well glad to live in a country that is so carefree by comparison to SA. One mate said he had to be outside every night as his wife rolled up to make sure she wasn't carjacked, plus the turning your house into a fort security wise.

Can't imagine anyone (no matter where they're from) saying they miss that carry on and wish it were the same here.

[Akzle]

Yep! All the SA's I've worked with have been raging good bastards (and their family!) whom are well glad to live in a country that is so carefree by comparison to SA. One mate said he had to be outside every night as his wife rolled up to make sure she wasn't carjacked, plus the turning your house into a fort security wise.

Can't imagine anyone (no matter where they're from) saying they miss that carry on and wish it were the same here.

never been to south auckland, huh?

[FJRider]

never been to south auckland, huh?

In south Auckland ... the four cars on the front lawn wont run anyway.


Anything on the property worth stealing ... probably WAS stolen ...



In South Auckland .... the WIFE was the one to fear ...


Pity the poor prick that tried to pinch the only car they/she had ... that actually runs (it's legality is/would be another story) ..

[Voltaire]

In south Auckland ... the four cars on the front lawn wont run anyway.


Anything on the property worth stealing ... probably WAS stolen ...



In South Auckland .... the WIFE was the one to fear ...


Pity the poor prick that tried to pinch the only car they/she had ... that actually runs (it's legality is/would be another story) ..

Room for lots of cars on this South Auckland property.
http://trademe.tmcdn.co.nz/photoserver/full/397513108.jpg
Some nice original features like the claw foot block bath, with virtual taps.
http://trademe.tmcdn.co.nz/photoserver/full/397513221.jpg
Asking price is $850 000 :laugh:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/property/residential-property-for-sale/auction-918382843.htm
Will be lots of cashed up Jaffas heading to " paradise" now .

[Tazz]

never been to south auckland, huh?

As little as possible :laugh:

Lets be honest, the worst possible part of NZ won't have shit on SA. Something like 6,000 reported crimes......a day. Murder rate, well, they'll be near the top and we'll be near the bottom without a doubt.

Pretty sure South Auckland doesn't even have these...:


http://whygo-afr.s3.amazonaws.com/www.southafricalogue.com/files/2008/03/hotspot_22.gif

http://praag.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/nyanga.jpg

[FJRider]

... Will be lots of cashed up Jaffas heading to " paradise" now .

I hope they've checked out the price of "Paradise" property values ...



Paradise is not (and never will be) CHEAP ...

[Akzle]

Some nice original features like the claw foot block bath, with virtual taps.
once'pon a timee one would have to boil the copper, for bath water.

it's nice to see people hanging on to tradition.

. Something like 6,000 reported crimes......a day. Murder rate, well, they'll be near the top and we'll be near the bottom without a doubt.

new york?

[Tazz]

new york?

What about it? If you're trying to think of somewhere worse I would have gone for South America. They just don't get the same media attention.

Man, there's something in the water at these S and A places :laugh:

[Swoop]

Maybe it was because there was no enclave like on the North Shore :rolleyes:
Which particular one? There's Glenfield, Browns Bay or Whangaparaoa...

Some nice original features like the claw foot block bath, with virtual taps.
Bro! She's up on blocks. Did someone steal your wheels?

[Voltaire]

I hope they've checked out the price of "Paradise" property values ...



Paradise is not (and never will be) CHEAP ...

For a mere 40 k more, leave the Otahuhu villa to the 'overseas investors" and head to Queenstown.... must be able to get $14.50 there doing something.
This is a bargain by Auckland standards, not as much 'character" though....
http://trademe.tmcdn.co.nz/photoserver/full/358921506.jpg
http://www.trademe.co.nz/property/residential-property-for-sale/auction-836866583.htm

[FJRider]

For a mere 40 k more, leave the Otahuhu villa to the 'overseas investors" and head to Queenstown.... must be able to get $14.50 there doing something.


For the same price ... a half hour drive from there ... ;)


http://www.realestate.co.nz/2503024

[Voltaire]

That's quite nice,:cold::cold::cold::cold::cold::cold::cold::co ld::cold::cold: I could sell up here and go on the dole.

[FJRider]

That's quite nice,:cold::cold::cold::cold::cold::cold::cold::co ld::cold::cold: I could sell up here and go on the dole.

Cold ... :killingme It was only minus 5 here this morning .... (a few days back it was minus 9)

[Voltaire]

Cold ... :killingme It was only minus 5 here this morning .... (a few days back it was minus 9)


Frost up here, had to download an app on my phone to clear the ice :2thumbsup, split my latte on the Audi.

[FJRider]

Frost up here, had to download an app on my phone to clear the ice :2thumbsup, split my latte on the Audi.

Sorry ... ?????


You split in your latte with your Audi .. :scratch:


Did it drink much ... ???? <_<

[Voltaire]

Sorry ... ?????


You split in your latte with your Audi .. :scratch:


Did it drink much ... ???? <_<

hard to type when on the southern motorway...

[FJRider]

hard to type when on the southern motorway...

Whats a motorway .. ??? :scratch:

[Voltaire]

This flag would seem to represent the majority.
Gets my vote.
http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb300/20060707/AucklandNewZealandFlag46246.jpg

[Robbo]

Would'nt mind seeing something like this,
With a white border around the "NZ" "ZN"
This would be a simple change as it only
Removes the Union Jack and replaces it
With the NZ logo

[oldrider]

Would'nt mind seeing something like this,
With a white border around the "NZ" "ZN"
This would be a simple change as it only
Removes the Union Jack and replaces it
With the NZ logo

We had that for the Empire games in Christchurch but with more white included - it was very popular at the time! - Look it up!

Links to images:https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=Empire/Commonwealth+games+logo+at+Christchurch+NZ&biw=1270&bih=877&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCsQsARqFQoTCOKgweKgp8cCFQIYpgodRW0G_Q think I could live with that.

[Robbo]

We had that for the Empire games in Christchurch but with more white included - it was very popular at the time! - Look it up!

Links to images:https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=Empire/Commonwealth+games+logo+at+Christchurch+NZ&biw=1270&bih=877&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCsQsARqFQoTCOKgweKgp8cCFQIYpgodRW0G_Q think I could live with that.

Yep, that would look great if the Union Jack was replaced with that exact format.

I could live with it too.

As for all the other options, none of them excite me at all.

Most of them just look to busy and complicated and unnecessary.

[Oscar]

Playing the devil's advocate for the moment - why are we so keen to throw away our heritage?
There is a lot of comment about removing the Union Jack and "..cutting our ties with Britain".
Why?

A good portion of our citizens have Scots, Welsh and English ancestors as the initial waves of white immigrants were poor yeoman farmers from these areas.
Our laws, culture and societal structure owe an awful lot to these people.

So whereas I have no problem with the recognition of where we are on the planet (the southern cross) and the polynesian infulences (koru), why are we so keen to abandon our history?

[Robbo]

Playing the devil's advocate for the moment - why are we so keen to throw away our heritage?
There is a lot of comment about removing the Union Jack and "..cutting our ties with Britain".
Why?

A good portion of our citizens have Scots, Welsh and English ancestors as the initial waves of white immigrants were poor yeoman farmers from these areas.
Our laws, culture and societal structure owe an awful lot to these people.

So whereas I have no problem with the recognition of where we are on the planet (the southern cross) and the polynesian infulences (koru), why are we so keen to abandon our history?

Agreed, i have no problem with our current flag and would be quite happy for it to remain, but the powers to be seem to be hell bent on both changing it and getting rid of the union jack. Can't say that any of the suggested forty options do anything for me though.

[Banditbandit]

Playing the devil's advocate for the moment - why are we so keen to throw away our heritage?
There is a lot of comment about removing the Union Jack and "..cutting our ties with Britain".
Why?

A good portion of our citizens have Scots, Welsh and English ancestors as the initial waves of white immigrants were poor yeoman farmers from these areas.
Our laws, culture and societal structure owe an awful lot to these people.

So whereas I have no problem with the recognition of where we are on the planet (the southern cross) and the polynesian infulences (koru), why are we so keen to abandon our history?

Because our history is that the rock on the other side of the world (AKA the UK) made our ancestors refugees !!!! They kick of off the land in the Highland Clearances, in the Irish Troubles ... economic refugees from England ...

(Yes, I have whakapapa back to that rock as well ... which I am slo familar with - whakapapa is whakapapa)

Why should we retain ties and have as our head of state the last vestiges of the British Ruling Class ??? (who have only ever fucked over my ancestors ... from all over)

[caspernz]

The flag debate/review is merely an attempt at misdirection. The country has serious issues that are unpalatable to tackle by the current government, so let's debate an irrelevant topic that evokes emotion amongst the masses...:angry2:

[Ocean1]

Playing the devil's advocate for the moment - why are we so keen to throw away our heritage?
There is a lot of comment about removing the Union Jack and "..cutting our ties with Britain".
Why?

A good portion of our citizens have Scots, Welsh and English ancestors as the initial waves of white immigrants were poor yeoman farmers from these areas.
Our laws, culture and societal structure owe an awful lot to these people.

So whereas I have no problem with the recognition of where we are on the planet (the southern cross) and the polynesian infulences (koru), why are we so keen to abandon our history?

Maybe because that's where we came from, it's not where we are. It's the colonialist perspective, the language of emigrants, not of immigrants. Or their children. The citizens of a new nation deserve a new identity.


The flag debate/review is merely an attempt at misdirection. The country has serious issues that are unpalatable to tackle by the current government, so let's debate an irrelevant topic that evokes emotion amongst the masses...:angry2:

That's a rather large oxymoron to be hanging such a pitiable wee conspiracy theory on innit?

[mashman]

The flag debate/review is merely an attempt at misdirection. The country has serious issues that are unpalatable to tackle by the current government, so let's debate an irrelevant topic that evokes emotion amongst the masses...:angry2:

No doubt. I'm slowly warming to the idea... it could be useful ;).


Maybe because that's where we came from, it's not where we are. It's the colonialist perspective, the language of emigrants, not of immigrants. Or their children. The citizens of a new nation deserve a new identity.

:killingme... A new identity? Oh dear.

[ellipsis]

No doubt. I'm slowly warming to the idea... it could be useful ;).



:killingme... A new identity? Oh dear.


...will it come with a made in NZ barcode...:apint::weird::tugger::rolleyes::banana: :mad::mad::banana::weird::apint::apint::apint:

[mashman]

...will it come with a made in NZ barcode...:apint::weird::tugger::rolleyes::banana: :mad::mad::banana::weird::apint::apint::apint:

ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa... nah, humans'd never do that to each other. We'll all be stars :sweatdrop

[jonbuoy]

Because our history is that the rock on the other side of the world (AKA the UK) made our ancestors refugees !!!! They kick of off the land in the Highland Clearances, in the Irish Troubles ... economic refugees from England ...

(Yes, I have whakapapa back to that rock as well ... which I am slo familar with - whakapapa is whakapapa)

Why should we retain ties and have as our head of state the last vestiges of the British Ruling Class ??? (who have only ever fucked over my ancestors ... from all over)

Its now 2015, things have changed times moved on you can´t keep dragging up old historical slights - if we did humans would still be stuck in the dark ages. Modern NZ ancestors/founders chose the current flag - if the current modern NZers wants a new one go for it. It won´t make any difference to how people perceive NZ on an international scale, it won´t be life changing for anyone except flag makers and printing companies. Outsiders will judge NZ and NZers on what they do not the flag that flies on the government buildings.

[caspernz]

That's a rather large oxymoron to be hanging such a pitiable wee conspiracy theory on innit?

Not a conspiracy theory as such, but when we have an immigration issue and a housing affordability issue in Auckland...that the government seems to want to bury its head in the sand about to a large degree, the flag debate is in my mind a misdirection tool.

[Maha]

Its now 2015, things have changed times moved on you can´t keep dragging up old historical slights - if we did humans would still be stuck in the dark ages. Modern NZ ancestors/founders chose the current flag - if the current modern NZers wants a new one go for it. It won´t make any difference to how people perceive NZ on an international scale, it won´t be life changing for anyone except flag makers and printing companies. Outsiders will judge NZ and NZers on what they do not the flag that flies on the government buildings.

Absolutely 100% correct, I couldn't tell you what the Ethiopian flag looks like but I know they breed awesome long distance runners. And generally speaking Kiwi's are known as generous people who live in a wonderful country, and a good portion of the rest of the world (the tourist that visit here) just love NZ.
Even if the current flag does eventually change, the existing flag will make appearances at events for many years to come. I have no issue with our national flag, its what I've know for over half a century.

[Ocean1]

Not a conspiracy theory as such, but when we have an immigration issue and a housing affordability issue in Auckland...that the government seems to want to bury its head in the sand about to a large degree, the flag debate is in my mind a misdirection tool.

What immigration issue? And why would you expect houses in Auckland to be any cheaper than any other city in the world's top dozen most preferred places to live? And why are they things you'd expect government to "fix"?

And what's so special about those issues that makes a government any more likely to want to divert attention from them than any other time full of "issues". What's wrong with the simplest answer: they just want to talk about changing the national flag? Or is there never not an ulterior motive?

[caspernz]

What immigration issue? And why would you expect houses in Auckland to be any cheaper than any other city in the world's top dozen most preferred places to live? And why are they things you'd expect government to "fix"?

And what's so special about those issues that makes a government any more likely to want to divert attention from them than any other time full of "issues". What's wrong with the simplest answer: they just want to talk about changing the national flag? Or is there never not an ulterior motive?

A visit to a few real estate auctions in Auckland will answer the immigration and housing aspects I'm referring to. For starters, why should someone who doesn't even live here, be allowed to buy a multitude of homes?

And to my way of thinking, the talk of changing the flag should go hand in hand with becoming a republic.

[98tls]

What immigration issue? And why would you expect houses in Auckland to be any cheaper than any other city in the world's top dozen most preferred places to live? And why are they things you'd expect government to "fix"?

And what's so special about those issues that makes a government any more likely to want to divert attention from them than any other time full of "issues". What's wrong with the simplest answer: they just want to talk about changing the national flag? Or is there never not an ulterior motive?

Define "preferred"...fact is theres suburbs of citizens that simply washed up there and it seems are quite happy to stay despite the fact they supposedly cant find work,to easy to stay or to lazy to move etc either way many of em wouldnt give a fuck about the national flag present or future just as they dont give a fuck about the country bar what it can give them in handouts.That said shouldnt whinge i guess at least if there up there there not here which is about all you can hope for these days.We live in a country with a horrendous workers to bludgers ratio per head and here we go spending millons on a National flag:2thumbsup way things are going why not a flag with whatever WINZ has as the letterhead.

[mossy1200]

Not being a flaggy person really I cant understand the urgent importance to change the flag.

Might have been cheaper to get the schools to run a flag design competition than spend 28mill then take a small sample vote to see if people want to change to the new design before a referendum.

It always seems like someone with an idea to put their mark on something will push it at any cost especially when someone else is funding that idea.

28million. That's a lot of money. Guess what maters is its not as much as we gave Solid Energy.
Help me understand why a Government that like to sell our stuff likes to bail out private companies.

[caspernz]

Define "preferred"...fact is theres suburbs of citizens that simply washed up there and it seems are quite happy to stay despite the fact they supposedly cant find work,to easy to stay or to lazy to move etc either way many of em wouldnt give a fuck about the national flag present or future just as they dont give a fuck about the country bar what it can give them in handouts.That said shouldnt whinge i guess at least if there up there there not here which is about all you can hope for these days.

That's one end of the spectrum. Any country and/or town will always have a portion of dropkicks/losers, not much you can do about that. Just can't see the sense in selling off houses to folks living outside NZ...when we can't buy real estate in their home country.

[Ocean1]

A visit to a few real estate auctions in Auckland will answer the immigration and housing aspects I'm referring to. For starters, why should someone who doesn't even live here, be allowed to buy a multitude of homes?

And to my way of thinking, the talk of changing the flag should go hand in hand with becoming a republic.

Because they can afford to? Although I'm sure most of those selling real estate in orks would let a struggling local have it for half price if asked nicely...

Why? A new republic probably does want a new flag, that doesn't mean we have to become a republic to make a new flag.

[Ocean1]

Define "preferred"...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/property/pictures/9477990/The-worlds-10-best-cities-to-live-in.html


...fact is theres suburbs of citizens that simply washed up there and it seems are quite happy to stay despite the fact they supposedly cant find work,to easy to stay or to lazy to move etc either way many of em wouldnt give a fuck about the national flag present or future just as they dont give a fuck about the country bar what it can give them in handouts.That said shouldnt whinge i guess at least if there up there there not here which is about all you can hope for these days.

Oh I could probably be talked around to the idea that dole bludgers shouldn't expect taxpayers to pay for them to live in the most expensive city in the country, for sure... Especially if there's more work on offer in Eketahuna.

[Ocean1]

...when we can't buy real estate in their home country.

That is a good point. But then most Chinese can't buy property in China either. And I've been there, it's no real loss.

[caspernz]

That is a good point. But then most Chinese can't buy property in China either. And I've been there, it's no real loss.

Level playing field is all I'd like to see. That's gotta be a government function surely? Not a Winston Peters fan as such, but he's been banging this drum for a while one way or another.

[98tls]

Level playing field is all I'd like to see. That's gotta be a government function surely? Not a Winston Peters fan as such, but he's been banging this drum for a while one way or another.

Cant see any problem with the chinese myself (ok but that aside) at least in general they show up cashed up etc..ok they end up buying but surely thats a whole lot better than the ever growing numbers that arrive and do fuck all but produce more to do the same,only upside to them is that many are employed to run about pandering to there every need.

[scumdog]

Level playing field is all I'd like to see. That's gotta be a government function surely? Not a Winston Peters fan as such, but he's been banging this drum for a while one way or another.

But if there's dolleros to be made? - well fuck the common sense, logic and ethics...

[Ocean1]

Level playing field is all I'd like to see. That's gotta be a government function surely? Not a Winston Peters fan as such, but he's been banging this drum for a while one way or another.

You've got a level playing field. The seller agrees to sell his house to the highest bidder, and the highest bidder agrees it's worth what he's paying. Nobody else needs any say in that process.

Now, if you wanted cheap housing then you might look at getting city hall's finger out of the development pie, CHH and Fletcher's fingers out of the materials monopoly pie and local and central govt's finger out of the standards and safety compliance pie. Then you could build houses half the size of the current ones and sell them for something like what your grandfater paid.

Until then, especially in Orks, you're fucked.

[98tls]

You've got a level playing field. The seller agrees to sell his house to the highest bidder, and the highest bidder agrees it's worth what he's paying. Nobody else needs any say in that process.

Now, if you wanted cheap housing then you might look at getting city hall's finger out of the development pie, CHH and Fletcher's fingers out of the materials monopoly pie and local and central govt's finger out of the standards and safety compliance pie. Then you could build houses half the size of the current ones and sell them for something like what your grandfater paid.

Until then, especially in Orks, you're fucked.

Amen on the Fletchers thing...that is truly fucked up.

[caspernz]

But if there's dolleros to be made? - well fuck the common sense, logic and ethics...


You've got a level playing field. The seller agrees to sell his house to the highest bidder, and the highest bidder agrees it's worth what he's paying. Nobody else needs any say in that process.

Now, if you wanted cheap housing then you might look at getting city hall's finger out of the development pie, CHH and Fletcher's fingers out of the materials monopoly pie and local and central govt's finger out of the standards and safety compliance pie. Then you could build houses half the size of the current ones and sell them for something like what your grandfater paid.

Until then, especially in Orks, you're fucked.

May as well sign up to learn Mandarin then...:baby:

[Voltaire]

May as well sign up to learn Mandarin then...:baby:

Its probably inevitable that with 2 billion the Chinese and to a lesser extent Indians are going to move to other places.

Much in the same way the Spanish and British did in the 16th-19th century.

I suppose now that China is one of our major trading partners the Govt is reluctant to make an issues out of it.

Kevin Rudd can speak Mandarin, he might make a comeback as Aussie PM :innocent:

[98tls]

May as well sign up to learn Mandarin then...:baby:

Why not...fair chance you would get more use of doing so than the mandatory French class i had to put up with at primary school.

[caspernz]

Why not...fair chance you would get more use of doing so than the mandatory French class i had to put up with at primary school.

I was being pragmatic I'll be honest. Sheer numbers suggest Mandarin is a sound choice to learn. I mean, back home I learned English, German, French...:yawn:

[mashman]

But if there's dolleros to be made? - well fuck the common sense, logic and ethics...

As Akzle would put it, paraphrasing, that's the economoney for ya.

[scumdog]

I was being pragmatic I'll be honest. Sheer numbers suggest Mandarin is a sound choice to learn. I mean, back home I learned English, German, French...:yawn:

My son speaks/reads/writes it fairly well and has lived in China for the last few years.

He's homewards bound and surprise-surprise, he's got a lot of opportunities for work in NZ.

[Voltaire]

You've got a level playing field. The seller agrees to sell his house to the highest bidder, and the highest bidder agrees it's worth what he's paying. Nobody else needs any say in that process.

Now, if you wanted cheap housing then you might look at getting city hall's finger out of the development pie, CHH and Fletcher's fingers out of the materials monopoly pie and local and central govt's finger out of the standards and safety compliance pie. Then you could build houses half the size of the current ones and sell them for something like what your grandfater paid.

Until then, especially in Orks, you're fucked.


You've got a level playing field. The manufacturer decided to get his products made overseas to the lowest price and the public agrees its worth less than the local price he is paying.Nobody else needs any say in that process.

Now if you want to keep jobs locally you might look at getting the Government to pull finger out, and encourage investment in industry instead of all the milk in one basket.

Until then, especially in the Provinces, you're fucked.:rolleyes:

[Ocean1]

You've got a level playing field. The manufacturer decided to get his products made overseas to the lowest price and the public agrees its worth less than the local price he is paying.Nobody else needs any say in that process.

Now if you want to keep jobs locally you might look at getting the Government to pull finger out, and encourage investment in industry instead of all the milk in one basket.

Until then, especially in the Provinces, you're fucked.:rolleyes:

But I don't want to keep jobs locally. At least not the ones requiring businesses to charge twice as much for half the quality.

Which was the choice, if you recall, a BMC allegro which lasted maybe 5 years and cost a year's pay or a 2nd hand Corolla for about half that cost which is now teaching your grandkids to drive. Where the market's "protected" the old saw about shit being worth whatever you pay for it is complete bollox, there's fuck all correlation between quality and cost. There's not much difference in a free market for consumer goods for that matter.

So let's hear none of this shit about protecting local jobs, we made that choice years ago and decided more or less unanimously that the local jobs weren't worth the crap they produced.

Now, investing in local industry is a great idea, but like any other investment it's got to pay dividends in the long run. There's enough bleating about govt backhanders to their "business mates" already without actually providing that rank stupidity with something approaching valid ammunition.

[Voltaire]

But I don't want to keep jobs locally. At least not the ones requiring businesses to charge twice as much for half the quality.

Which was the choice, if you recall, a BMC alegro which lasted maybe 5 years and cost a year's pay or a 2nd hand Corolla for about half that cost which is now teaching your grandkids to drive. Where the market's "protected" the old saw about shit being worth whatever you pay for it is complete bollox, there's fuck all correlation between quality and cost. There's not much difference in a free market for consumer goods for that matter.

So let's hear none of this shit about protecting local jobs, we made that choice years ago and decided more or less unanimously that the local jobs weren't worth the crap they produced.

Now, investing in local industry is a great idea, but like any other investment it's got to pay dividends in the long run. There's enough bleating about govt backhanders to their "business mates" already without actually providing that rank stupidity with something approaching valid ammunition.

Totally agree about the whole Allegro/Lincoln Turner/etc crap made here.
If a computer/robot can do it or it can be 'outsourced' ( overseas) you don't want to be doing that.
I'm 'dabbling' in the Stock Market, but the highest dividend there is about 8% net, compared to Auckland houses that that are doing 16%+
Can't say I'd be keen to put much on it.
You can get a whopping 3.7% before tax from the bank.....
I wonder if IRD are looking at all those 'tax free' quick house sales...
Think I'll stick with old bikes as investments as at least I can ride them:banana:

[Ocean1]

Totally agree about the whole Allegro/Lincoln Turner/etc crap made here.
If a computer/robot can do it or it can be 'outsourced' ( overseas) you don't want to be doing that.
I'm 'dabbling' in the Stock Market, but the highest dividend there is about 8% net, compared to Auckland houses that that are doing 16%+
Can't say I'd be keen to put much on it.
You can get a whopping 3.7% before tax from the bank.....
I wonder if IRD are looking at all those 'tax free' quick house sales...
Think I'll stick with old bikes as investments as at least I can ride them:banana:

Aye, I'm in the business of replacing "labour" with better alternatives, if you plan to survive as a "labourer" I can literally show you why that's a bad move. And if you haven't planned to do something more likely to be successful then you've basically planned to fail.

I had hopes P2P concepts might make the Stock Market if not redundant then at least improve it's transparency. And yield. May work yet. In the meantime I've been investing in plant for the business workshop. With mixed results I must admit.

Now, I know a fella who has a small fleet of machines on his company's books. Uses them to visit potential clients, to quote jobs, etc. Hasn't got a legal leg to stand on of course but they haven't tapped him on the shoulder yet...

[Swoop]

As Akzle would put it, paraphrasing, that's the economoney for ya.

Eh?

Surely it would be "fucking Jews"? :scratch:

[mashman]

Eh?

Surely it would be "fucking Jews"? :scratch:

Nah... I was referring to the what and not who, although I was confident someone else would fill in that blank :niceone:

[carbonhed]

John Key on the flag referendum.

https://www.facebook.com/pmjohnkey/videos/vb.12635800428/10153534317450429/?type=2&theater

[oldrider]

John Key on the flag referendum.

https://www.facebook.com/pmjohnkey/videos/vb.12635800428/10153534317450429/?type=2&theater

Change the prime minister and keep the flag? - Oh but we never get a referendum on that - only the politicians get that! :shifty:

We (the electorate) only vote to give the parties permission to create a government among themselves and appoint a prime minister! :scratch:

[bogan]

John Key on the flag referendum.

https://www.facebook.com/pmjohnkey/videos/vb.12635800428/10153534317450429/?type=2&theater

Good vid, very logical, fair, and democratic. I had wondered about the order of referendums, but his answer makes perfect sense there.

[Tazz]

Good vid, very logical, fair, and democratic. I had wondered about the order of referendums, but his answer makes perfect sense there.

To me it just smells like something he wants to do while he's in power to have as another notch on his belt.

I'm not adverse to changing it, but the comment about 'chewing gum and walking at the same time' in relation to 26 million (or however much it is) not going to a more worthy cause right now kinda grinds my gears a bit, especially when you look at how magical our finance books are from his partys leadership, not.

The Patriotism aspect is an interesting one as personally I feel NZer's are very patriotic without being in your face about it, and most (I'd almost say all) are happy that way.
Do we really want to be compared to loud mouth yokels that wear nothing but American flag clothing yelling about how great Merica is, how no other country comes close and some shit about nascar and eagles?

[Banditbandit]

Aye, I'm in the business of replacing "labour" with better alternatives,

The problem then is that there is an increase in the unemployment pool - and therefore higher taxes to support people who are unable to find work ... so your profits are reduced anyway ... maybe not as much as if you were paying staff - but reduced nevertheless.

THe higher unemployment creates social problems, which are then taken care of by a range of social agencies and enforcement action - which further adds to your tax bill ...

[bogan]

To me it just smells like something he wants to do while he's in power to have as another notch on his belt.

I'm not adverse to changing it, but the comment about 'chewing gum and walking at the same time' in relation to 26 million (or however much it is) not going to a more worthy cause right now kinda grinds my gears a bit, especially when you look at how magical our finance books are from his partys leadership, not.

The Patriotism aspect is an interesting one as personally I feel NZer's are very patriotic without being in your face about it, and most (I'd almost say all) are happy that way.
Do we really want to be compared to loud mouth yokels that wear nothing but American flag clothing yelling about how great Merica is, how no other country comes close and some shit about nascar and eagles?

Could be, but that is entirely beside the point.

All costs are at the expense of something else you'd rather they be spent on. But as he said, money is still going where it is needed, and this needs to be done democratically, which costs.

Which would still be our choice, the flag change just formalises the silver fern symbolism we all identify with anyway; it is still our choice how over or understated we want to wear that symbol


The problem then is that there is an increase in the unemployment pool - and therefore higher taxes to support people who are unable to find work ... so your profits are reduced anyway ... maybe not as much as if you were paying staff - but reduced nevertheless.

THe higher unemployment creates social problems, which are then taken care of by a range of social agencies and enforcement action - which further adds to your tax bill ...

Or they could upskill/cross-train as we've been doing since we gave up the caves and mud-huts.

[Ocean1]

The problem then is that there is an increase in the unemployment pool - and therefore higher taxes to support people who are unable to find work ... so your profits are reduced anyway ... maybe not as much as if you were paying staff - but reduced nevertheless.

THe higher unemployment creates social problems, which are then taken care of by a range of social agencies and enforcement action - which further adds to your tax bill ...

The problem isn't in reducing the number of "labour units", it's training them to behave like humans, not machines.

Seriously, nobody's life is enhanced by minimum-skill drudgery. Get a life worth living, contribute to the explosion in living standards.

Taking the path of least resistance wasn't a good idea at school, and it only gets worse when you start asking people to pay for your efforts.

[oldrider]

The problem isn't in reducing the number of "labour units", it's training them to behave like humans, not machines.

Seriously, nobody's life is enhanced by minimum-skill drudgery. Get a life worth living, contribute to the explosion in living standards.

Taking the path of least resistance wasn't a good idea at school, and it only gets worse when you start asking people to pay for your efforts.

Purpose of Production = consumption - matching production to consumption demand - increases debt to the point where there is no money left to consume production!

Debt servicing has first priority - non consumption = production compelled to shut down - fortunately out of work producers can focus on changing the flag! :blip:

Simplistic of course but it does appear to be like that! :scratch: Look around - the whole world is wallowing in debt! :buggerd: We appear to be screwed! :corn:

[Ocean1]

Purpose of Production = consumption - matching production to consumption demand - increases debt to the point where there is no money left to consume production!

Debt servicing has first priority - non consumption = production compelled to shut down - fortunately out of work producers can focus on changing the flag! :blip:

Simplistic of course but it does appear to be like that! :scratch: Look around - the whole world is wallowing in debt! :buggerd: We appear to be screwed! :corn:

Nope, there's no requirement in that sequence for debt whatsoever.

[oldrider]

Nope, there's no requirement in that sequence for debt whatsoever.

No body borrows in order to set up and meet production targets? - can you (simplistically) explain what you mean by that? - serious question?

Edit: Anytime - I have to go to bed now. :sleep:

[Ocean1]

No body borrows in order to set up and meet production targets? - can you (simplistically) explain what you mean by that? - serious question?

Edit: Anytime - I have to go to bed now. :sleep:

On the production side, yes, there's projected revenue resulting from the purchase that justifies it. Although, as a manufacturer / supplier I've never borrowed money to purchase capital plant.

On the consumption side, no. The old saying "never borrow to buy a depreciating asset" applies even more.

[Banditbandit]

The problem isn't in reducing the number of "labour units", it's training them to behave like humans, not machines.

No, I'm sorry - but our education system IS all about training human beings to behave like machines - that is exactly why control over the tertiary training system was handed to employers ...


Seriously, nobody's life is enhanced by minimum-skill drudgery. Get a life worth living, contribute to the explosion in living standards.

What a white middle class statement - I have worked with lots of people who are very happy in minimum-skill jobs ... yes, they are not very bright - but they are exactly the sort of peopel we need BECAUSE they are happy in those jobs ...


Taking the path of least resistance wasn't a good idea at school, and it only gets worse when you start asking people to pay for your efforts.

I took the path of maximum resistance ... I was completely resistant to school .. left school and promptly got a job in a shearing gang ... then in a tannery .. etc etc ... my return to education was much later in life ...




Or they could upskill/cross-train as we've been doing since we gave up the caves and mud-huts.

Yeah - people do that ... but many are unable to do that ..

[Tazz]

But as he said, money is still going where it is needed
https://fmacskasy.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/yeah-right.jpg

Try telling that to the folks in working in some government departments who have been on a wage freeze since 2008, meanwhile 5.5% pay rise to MP's last time around (I know allegedly JK doesn't take his $400+ k a year, but he's hardly a José Mujica).

Like I said, I'm not adverse to changing it, and I'm not anti JK by default either (by comparison to what has been on offer past elections) but to me he's said it's essentially chump change and everything else is fine humming along under funded, and that is a crock.

The little comment about the Greens doing it was a bit petty too.

As for choosing how to act, yeah for sure, I don't think we'd ever be that bad, but using that sort of thing as an argument for a flag change, yeah nah.
That said, what's wrong with not being overtly patriotic? Why do we have to copy what others are doing?

[Ocean1]

No, I'm sorry - but our education system IS all about training human beings to behave like machines - that is exactly why control over the tertiary training system was handed to employers ...

Bullshit, it was simply removed from hand-wringing academic socialist wannabe's and placed in the hands of the person who owns it: the student.

Far be it from me to suggest students train with an eye to what their training's worth, just don't whine if underwater tofu basket weaving turns out not to have been a smart career investment move.


What a white middle class statement - I have worked with lots of people who are very happy in minimum-skill jobs ... yes, they are not very bright - but they are exactly the sort of peopel we need BECAUSE they are happy in those jobs ...

What a beige non-productive class statement, out here in the real world the minimum skill class get to be as happy as they can afford to be, just like the rest of us. Ideally they get to afford that without having everyone else pay them more than they're worth.


I took the path of maximum resistance ... I was completely resistajt to school .. left school and promptly got a job in a shearing gang ... then in a tannery .. etc etc ... my return to education was much later in life ...

That's not maximum resistance, that's just doing what you wanted rather than what you should have. Easy. Deferring your wants until you'd made the tools to earn them is a fucking sight more difficult.

[mossy1200]

Just a note.
Some of the flag designs don't have one of the 5 Olympic ring colours? Don't the Olympics pride themselves in including a colour that's on every competing nations flag?

[bogan]

Try telling that to the folks in working in some government departments who have been on a wage freeze since 2008, meanwhile 5.5% pay rise to MP's last time around (I know allegedly JK doesn't take his $400+ k a year, but he's hardly a José Mujica).

Like I said, I'm not adverse to changing it, and I'm not anti JK by default either (by comparison to what has been on offer past elections) but to me he's said it's essentially chump change and everything else is fine humming along under funded, and that is a crock.

The little comment about the Greens doing it was a bit petty too.

As for choosing how to act, yeah for sure, I don't think we'd ever be that bad, but using that sort of thing as an argument for a flag change, yeah nah.
That said, what's wrong with not being overtly patriotic? Why do we have to copy what others are doing?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jY_WWFGfzS8/UtwuiVuIXZI/AAAAAAAAAF4/Vex0A-sVHig/s1600/missingthepoint-1.gif

Tell it to our free / heavily subsidised healthcare and education...

So, are you asking for a tax hike then, because 26mil is chump change compared to how 'under funded' we are.

Petty, but right on the money.

Patriotism seems a better option than apathy.

[Tazz]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jY_WWFGfzS8/UtwuiVuIXZI/AAAAAAAAAF4/Vex0A-sVHig/s1600/missingthepoint-1.gif

Tell it to our free / heavily subsidised healthcare and education...

So, are you asking for a tax hike then, because 26mil is chump change compared to how 'under funded' we are.

Petty, but right on the money.

Patriotism seems a better option than apathy.

I don't think I missed the point at all. I understand where you're coming from, and disagree :bleh:

Why do taxes need to be hiked to cover the 26mil? It shouldn't have been spent on this shit in the first case is the argument, and that type of attitude is why it is chump change compared to what is needed.

Subsiding tertiary education benefits everyone, so long as there is not over 'emphasis' on certain areas, but that and healthcare under a public or private model is another topic. Right now there are people who work within that industry, and cast your mind aside from what and how patients pay, who are on a wage freeze.

That, in my mind anyway, is not having everything covered enough to throw money about on a pet project. Yes people will always want money to go else where than their neighbour, but it's a bit different if you think things are shit enough to implement a financial freeze on multiple sectors, then it's not simply dividing up, it's a shortage... That's how my mind works anyway, hence the whinge :baby:

Right on the money, so lets spend more money and make the same mistake because they did? Very logical and decisive leadership. He is certainly boss of the sand pit :laugh:

Would you say in your experience NZer's are apathetic?

[bogan]

I don't think I missed the point at all. I understand where you're coming from, and disagree :bleh:

Why do taxes need to be hiked to cover the 26mil? It shouldn't have been spent on this shit in the first case is the argument, and that type of attitude is why it is chump change compared to what is needed.

Subsiding tertiary education benefits everyone, so long as there is not over 'emphasis' on certain areas, but that and healthcare under a public or private model is another topic. Right now there are people who work within that industry, and cast your mind aside from what and how patients pay, who are on a wage freeze.

That, in my mind anyway, is not having everything covered enough to throw money about on a pet project. Yes people will always want money to go else where than their neighbour, but it's a bit different if you think things are shit enough to implement a financial freeze on multiple sectors, then it's not simply dividing up, it's a shortage... That's how my mind works anyway, hence the whinge :baby:

Right on the money, so lets spend more money and make the same mistake because they did? Very logical and decisive leadership. He is certainly boss of the sand pit :laugh:

Would you say in your experience NZer's are apathetic?

Nah, your counterpoint that money isn't going everywhere you think it needs to illustrated you missed mine.

They would need to be hiked to cover everything everyone thinks is a need; I dare say past 100% too.

See above.

See above.

What mistake? They exercised democratic process.

Probably, but I can't be arsed :bleh: When it comes to issues concerning our country, I'd say yes.

[Banditbandit]

Bullshit, it was simply removed from hand-wringing academic socialist wannabe's and placed in the hands of the person who owns it: the student.

Crap - to get a new programme approved by NZQA we have to prove that we have consulted with employers and they want the new qualificiatrion and training programme.

All unit standards are written by the employer/producer sector. We have no say about what goes into those at all. We get told by the bosses what we are allowed to teach in our training programmes.


Far be it from me to suggest students train with an eye to what their training's worth, just don't whine if underwater tofu basket weaving turns out not to have been a smart career investment move.

Course they do - that's why we produce so many lawyers and accountants (even tho' we don't need them) becasue students see that is where the money is ...




What a beige non-productive class statement, out here in the real world the minimum skill class get to be as happy as they can afford to be, just like the rest of us. Ideally they get to afford that without having everyone else pay them more than they're worth.


Why is part of the non-productive class to challenge your statement that "Nobody's life is enhanced by minimum-skill drudgery." Some of the people I have worked with were very happy in minimum skill low paid jobs ... some of us wherer just there to pay the rent and buy food ... but for others that was what they would do for the rest of their lives .. adn they were happy ...


Where did this come from? "without having everyone else pay them more than they're worth"? We're talking about employed people here



That's not maximum resistance, that's just doing what you wanted rather than what you should have. Easy. Deferring your wants until you'd made the tools to earn them is a fucking sight more difficult.


:rofl: "doing what you should have ... " ... Yeah ..

Earn them .. Yeah ... hat's how I ended up with a freehold home, a boat, two motorbikes ... I certainly did not get those on the dole ...

[Banditbandit]

Just a note.
Some of the flag designs don't have one of the 5 Olympic ring colours? Don't the Olympics pride themselves in including a colour that's on every competing nations flag?

I suggested this as a new flag design ...


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ue2_vDGeEV8/TUegLJ8BkmI/AAAAAAAAFpU/Jnsrv_HPCSk/s1600/for+sale+clip+art.gif



They wouldn't accept it - because "it is not your orignal design".

[Swoop]

Crap - to get a new programme approved by NZQA we have to prove that we have consulted with employers and they want the new qualificiatrion and training programme.

All unit standards are written by the employer/producer sector. We have no say about what goes into those at all. We get told by the bosses what we are allowed to teach in our training programmes.

There is the rub, right there. It will become harder and harder for Polytech's and Universities to start up courses due to "industry" input dictating what the graduate profile should look like.
Then there is the demand that training should be taking place "in industry", so the ed. providers are screwed. On top of that there is the expense of carrying a bloated administration and management structure which ramps up the fees exorbitantly, making the "train in industry" pathway even more enticing.

The cherry on top is that the student gets paid to learn, rather than ramping up a massive student debt at Uni.


I doubt the teaching unions are happy with the approaching future.

[Banditbandit]

There is the rub, right there. It will become harder and harder for Polytech's and Universities to start up courses due to "industry" input dictating what the graduate profile should look like.
Then there is the demand that training should be taking place "in industry", so the ed. providers are screwed. On top of that there is the expense of carrying a bloated administration and management structure which ramps up the fees exorbitantly, making the "train in industry" pathway even more enticing.

The cherry on top is that the student gets paid to learn, rather than ramping up a massive student debt at Uni.


I doubt the teaching unions are happy with the approaching future.

Yeah .. all that - but industry once provided the training ... then they moved it all into Polytechs .. and PTEs. Saved the employer shit loads . but added to the tax load ..

They don't really want it back .. it's too expensive for them ...and there are major issues with quality control in workplaces - how do you ensure that workers in different workplaces have learnt the same stuff?

My preference is really for experential learning - and I would suggest that for every year a student sits in a tertiary classroom they need to spend three years on the job to really learn it - so a one year certificate - now do three years on the job. For a degree - now spend nine years on the job (3 classroom years times 3 years expereince). After nine years on the job post-graduation the student might have learnt the job ...

[Voltaire]

Yeah .. all that - but industry once provided the training ... then they moved it all into Polytechs .. and PTEs. Saved the employer shit loads . but added to the tax load ..

They don't really want it back .. it's too expensive for them ...and there are major issues with quality control in workplaces - how do you ensure that workers in different workplaces have learnt the same stuff?

My preference is really for experential learning - and I would suggest that for every year a student sits in a tertiary classroom they need to spend three years on the job to really learn it - so a one year certificate - now do three years on the job. For a degree - now spend nine years on the job (3 classroom years times 3 years expereince). After nine years on the job post-graduation the student might have learnt the job ...

I did an Electrical apprenticeship in the early 80's and we used to go 1 day f/n at tech and two nights a week.

My Son is doing one now and he says no one will fail the course....

A mix of on the job and tech/uni is probably the way to go.

I suspect some of the so called training places are just business's taking money and giving out certificates.

I've been doing interviewing for an electrical ( air con would be a bonus) technical role and bugger all out there.

[Erelyes]

The powers to be seem to be hell bent on both changing it and getting rid of the union jack.

John Key pointed out that they could well have just cast a vote amongst the MPs and be done with it, but the country would have been well pissed off if they did that. So hence the referenda.

The local paper had an interesting poll, calling for votes between 5 flags: 4 of the 40 proposed flags, and the incumbent.

The incumbent won at around 127, but the next choice after was 90-something, and if you add the 'alternatives' together it was within a few votes of the incumbent.

I was pleasantly surprised, I would have thought the paper-reading populace more conservative than that.

In fact if anything it's Facebook that seems to be dominated by 'keep the flag' views.

[Swoop]

Saved the employer shit loads . They don't really want it back .. it's too expensive for them ...

Not so. The areas I've seen/been involved with are saying that employees disappearing to a provider means unproductive time. Employers are demanding that all training is done in the workplace and just get an assessor in to check them and sign them off.

If students wise up, they will soon just get a job, then a bit of experience then just apply for RPL/RCC to get the qual. ITO's haven't cottoned on to this yet...

[Ocean1]

Crap - to get a new programme approved by NZQA we have to prove that we have consulted with employers and they want the new qualificiatrion and training programme.

All unit standards are written by the employer/producer sector. We have no say about what goes into those at all. We get told by the bosses what we are allowed to teach in our training programmes.

So, you have to go cap in hand to Acme Bakery Ltd for agreement that they're personally happy with your course?

You sure about that?

I rather think it's just that the construction of industry training standards should probably involve representatives from that industry, don't you? Only, we've done it the other way before if you recall, with less than stellar results.


Course they do - that's why we produce so many lawyers and accountants (even tho' we don't need them) becasue students see that is where the money is ...

And you'd rather they learned what you think they aught to learn. Big fuck off, there dude, you can teach them what you want when you're paying them to do so. In the meantime, where does the money for the training come from?


Why is part of the non-productive class to challenge your statement that "Nobody's life is enhanced by minimum-skill drudgery." Some of the people I have worked with were very happy in minimum skill low paid jobs ... some of us wherer just there to pay the rent and buy food ... but for others that was what they would do for the rest of their lives .. adn they were happy ...

Same reason it's part of white middle class to challenge people to do better than minimum-skill drudgery. I suggest it's an almost blasphemous waste of a life. But hey, if they're happy it's all good. Innit?


Where did this come from? "without having everyone else pay them more than they're worth"? We're talking about employed people here.

It came form the simple fact that NZ's minimum wage law means that anyone working at that level is paid more than their customers want to pay for their service.



:rofl: "doing what you should have ... " ... Yeah ..

Earn them .. Yeah ... hat's how I ended up with a freehold home, a boat, two motorbikes ... I certainly did not get those on the dole ...

Which you could have had a fucking sight earlier if you'd chosen different career training options. Nor did I mention any dole. Your life's none of my business, sounds like it's working OK for you. Just don't whine about the effect of study options when the student is 95% of the cause of the outcomes.

[Ocean1]

There is the rub, right there. It will become harder and harder for Polytech's and Universities to start up courses due to "industry" input dictating what the graduate profile should look like.
Then there is the demand that training should be taking place "in industry", so the ed. providers are screwed. On top of that there is the expense of carrying a bloated administration and management structure which ramps up the fees exorbitantly, making the "train in industry" pathway even more enticing.

The cherry on top is that the student gets paid to learn, rather than ramping up a massive student debt at Uni.


I doubt the teaching unions are happy with the approaching future.


Yeah .. all that - but industry once provided the training ... then they moved it all into Polytechs .. and PTEs. Saved the employer shit loads . but added to the tax load ..

They don't really want it back .. it's too expensive for them ...and there are major issues with quality control in workplaces - how do you ensure that workers in different workplaces have learnt the same stuff?

My preference is really for experential learning - and I would suggest that for every year a student sits in a tertiary classroom they need to spend three years on the job to really learn it - so a one year certificate - now do three years on the job. For a degree - now spend nine years on the job (3 classroom years times 3 years expereince). After nine years on the job post-graduation the student might have learnt the job ...

So, cadetships? Apprenticeships?

Who pays for them?

[Ocean1]

I suspect some of the so called training places are just business's taking money and giving out certificates.

I know of one institution that produced certificates costing $2000, they supplied one CD and one laptop. Attendance not compulsory.

Funny that, every time you subsidise something someone immediately takes it, and supplies the absolute minimum in order to do so.

Doesn't help that those subsidising shit are almost always using other peoples money to do so.

[Banditbandit]

So, you have to go cap in hand to Acme Bakery Ltd for agreement that they're personally happy with your course?

You sure about that?

Absoluterly - I am involved as part of my job in developing new tertiary courses - and they all need industrry support (The university sector is a different - I don't work in a university). If we can';t show industry support we don't get our courses approved for funding ..


I rather think it's just that the construction of industry training standards should probably involve representatives from that industry, don't you? Only, we've done it the other way before if you recall, with less than stellar results.

I agree. We should not have teaching programes and qualifications if they do not lead to the student getting a job at the end. An argument I have with some of the teaching staff who think they are the best peopel to decide what gets taught.

Hasving said that, ut is the total control of the training programmes by employers that I dislike. Sure, students need the skils to work in the industry, but the industry just wants robots - education is more than producing skilled robots. Education should be life-changing, not just training for a job.



And you'd rather they learned what you think they aught to learn. Big fuck off, there dude, you can teach them what you want when you're paying them to do so. In the meantime, where does the money for the training come from?

No - I never said that, and as you will gather from my answer above, I don't agree with that. Students certainly need to learn skills, have knowledge, but they should also become better citizens, whatever that idea means to the stduents, NOT to me ...



Same reason it's part of white middle class to challenge people to do better than minimum-skill drudgery. I suggest it's an almost blasphemous waste of a life. But hey, if they're happy it's all good. Innit?

I put the last part first - as long as they are happy. It's their judgement, not yours or mine . To suggest that "it's almost a blasphemous waste of life" is a white middle class judgement - I refuse to judge another person's life that way. .




It came form the simple fact that NZ's minimum wage law means that anyone working at that level is paid more than their customers want to pay for their service.

In that case, the laws of the free market come into play. If a service costs more than the customers want to pay the customers wil not pay and the jobs will cease to exist.

That is clearly the case in our coal industry - it's collapsing because the world does not want to pay high prices for coal - the price of coal is less than the cost of getting it out of the ground and shipping it to industry -




Which you could have had a fucking sight earlier if you'd chosen different career training options.

As I gave you no time frame on when I got that - how the hell can you say that ? I've owned more than one motorcycle at any one time since way back .. I only recently bought the boat because I live on the coast ... and love to fish ..



Your life's none of my business, sounds like it's working OK for you. Just don't whine about the effect of study options when the student is 95% of the cause of the outcomes.


My point was that I took an alternative path - and still had similar life outcomes ...

[Swoop]

So, cadetships? Apprenticeships?

Who pays for them?

Apprenticeships have been around for centuries.
Young lad/lass goes and finds employer and signs up. Employer pays wages and also pays for training (sometimes in-house, sometimes at a polytech).

Alternative path:
Young lad/lass can't find employment. Goes to polytech to gain experience in chosen field. Government pays 75%, student pays 25% via a student loan. Employment prospects are greater after sucessfully completing course.
Employers like this as the person is more productive than someone straight off of the street.



Polytech & Universities rorted the system with CD-rom/free laptop scams which slurped up money from government. Government cottoned on to this and conducted the TRoQ review of qualifications. Result: only one course approved by NZQA in the country with Uni/Poly delivering what is requested by the "owners" of the course (the industry). Industry thinks it can "do it cheaper" in-house.

Interesting times...

[mashman]

John Oliver reveals 'greatest' NZ flag design which didn't make shortlist (https://nz.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/29287741/john-oliver-reveals-greatest-nz-flag-design-which-didnt-make-shortlist/#page1)

[Pixie]

Half an arse on a black background - obviously.

....but we'll get some crappy rag with a white feather on it.

[husaberg]

http://www.flagco.com/prodimages/message/angled/for-sale.png

[Voltaire]

Richie says we should change the flag....and so did Conrad.
While we are at it lets get rid of the New Zealand name, I've been to Zealand and it looks nothing like here. Its flat and boring....maybe Abel Tasman landed in Christchurch first.
New Flag
http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2015/05/15/102682735-3127-flag.530x298.png?v=1431699254

How about AllBlackland, or Newstraylia.:innocent:

[husaberg]

Richie says we should change the flag....and so did Conrad.
While we are at it lets get rid of the New Zealand name, I've been to Zealand and it looks nothing like here. Its flat and boring....maybe Abel Tasman landed in Christchurch first.
New Flag


How about AllBlackland, or Newstraylia.:innocent:

I think the flag should look more like this.
I think it about sums us up.
315352

[J.A.W.]

Richie says we should change the flag....and so did Conrad.
While we are at it lets get rid of the New Zealand name, I've been to Zealand and it looks nothing like here. Its flat and boring....maybe Abel Tasman landed in Christchurch first.
New Flag
http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2015/05/15/102682735-3127-flag.530x298.png?v=1431699254

How about AllBlackland, or Newstraylia.:innocent:


Poor birdie.. Ah well, as mums always said.. "You'll put your bloody eye out doing that.."

[Swoop]

Oh fuck. Now a pointy-ball twat is "endorsing" the change. He seems to like the white feather since he's seen it waved around so much.
Naked-fucking-arse.

[husaberg]

Mk 3.............we need some sponsorship
315353


Oh fuck. Now a pointy-ball twat is "endorsing" the change. He seems to like the white feather since he's seen it waved around so much.
Naked-fucking-arse.
You mean Sir Richard McCrawl.

[Voltaire]

http://www.symtag.co.uk/data/symtag/assets/images/common/animals-header.jpg

On one had they want to get rid of the Union bit on the flag, but still happy to get a Knighthood....maybe the Order of the Fern would be more in line.

[oldrider]

Fuck this flag shit - like we can afford this kind of folly right now - talk about priorities! :facepalm: - meanwhile back at the TPPA public debate? :shutup: - Oh it's secret! :shifty:

[EJK]

New NZ Flag revealed

[Pixie]

Oh fuck. Now a pointy-ball twat is "endorsing" the change. He seems to like the white feather since he's seen it waved around so much.
Naked-fucking-arse.

Why do you think ShonKey has been licking AB arses for the last year?
"I'll Make you "Sir Football Fucktard" if you endorse my memorial flag.

[husaberg]

Why do you think ShonKey has been licking AB arses for the last year?
"I'll Make you "Sir Football Fucktard" if you endorse my memorial flag.
I hope he brings back the three handed handshake. that wasn't awkward at all:2thumbsup

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/D---vjDqdIc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

YouTube has been ordered to remove the awkward 3-way handshake between John key, Richie McCaw and IRB chairman Bernard Lapasset. The moment has gone viral across the internet, making way for a Facebook page called "That awkward moment when John Key crashes your handshake". Popular video streaming site, YouTube, which is owned by Google, has replaced uploads of the video with the message "This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by International Rugby Board". RadioLIVE, however, have found this clip still lurking on YouTube. Watch this space for its removal!
http://www.radiolive.co.nz/VIDEO-John-Keys-3-way-handshake-pulled-from-YouTube-by-IRB/tabid/504/articleID/24021/Default.aspx

315366

[Grumph]

Why do you think ShonKey has been licking AB arses for the last year?
"I'll Make you "Sir Football Fucktard" if you endorse my memorial flag.

And if they don't win ? It'll be interesting to see how fast he can distance himself from the AB's

Announcing the team at the Beehive ? FFS why ? Other than pure political points scoring....

[husaberg]

This was a link on the original vid

If they don't win he will deny any support for them in the first place.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cFnQ2DxUPA8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MSXpNemeg0A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Swoop]

And if they don't win ?
A chap has already bet $70,000 that they wont win. Quite a sensible bet really, as they have proved that they the RWC when it's played at home.

[Oakie]

At least the flag I like is in the last 4.

[Virago]

Once seen you can't unsee it...

315375

[Oakie]

Once seen you can't unsee it...

315375

Shows how much those two symbols are entrenched in the structure of NZ. That's all.

[awa355]

Key would vote for the red, white and blue. "Sorry Barack, this was as close as I could get to the 'Stars and stripes' without arousing suspicion. . :pinch: