Rule change submissions close 1 March 2016 - be in to win.

[jasonu]

If the restriction is so unimportant there thus should be no issue leaving it in place then is there...............
Yhat old silly rule was designed to be a restriction.

No one has explained why all of a sudden all the other bikes CC need to get bigger but not the 100cc 2 strokes.

That is my angle too.

[TZ350]

Are you sure thermal melt down due to the 24mm carb is the problem? TZ has said numerous times the 24mm carb isn't the limiting factor and I am still not sure why he is hell bent on getting rid of that rule.

I think it is nothing to do with the carb, thermal melt down will be due to the air cooling being unable to shed the waste heat generated from 30+hp.

319579

I once did a back to back test between a std 24mm OKO carb red line, and another OKO 24 bored out to 30mm, blue line. Both carbs were identical in style and layout and both with jetting optimized. Not as big a difference as I expected.

The 24mm carb restriction does not stop tuners from making 30hp or more but a 30+hp 125 seems to have gone beyond what air cooling can handle reliably. Even the air cooled factory race bikes of the 60's and 70's only made mid twenties power.

The legitimacy of my carburettor tuning has been questioned because I can make a tuned 24 flow as well as a factory 30. How to do it is no secret.

People have questioned the legitimacy of improving 24mm carbs so they flow better. The same people have never stopped to question the legitimacy of improving 2T cylinders, clearly they are both a legitimate Bucket thing to do.

Personally I would mourn the loss of the 24 rule because I have had so much fun with it. I have found and published so many ways to defeat it (if it was ever a real restriction on power???) that it is now irrelevant.

If the 24 thing makes people feel better and they want to continue with the comfortable illusion of a 24mm restriction, then sure, that is my first choice but the rule probably needs to be better defined to also cover EFI and throttle plate carbs like the Tillotson pumper as well as the usual motorcycle slide carbs.

The next best thing is to get rid of both carb restriction rules and cut two complicated unnecessary sentences out of the F4 F5 rule book wording.

In broad terms, carb restrictions are irrelevant in limiting power, but cooling ability is everything and air cooling does not cut it.

[husaberg]

I think it is nothing to do with the carb, thermal melt down will be due to the air cooling being unable to shed the waste heat generated from 30+hp.

319579

I once did a back to back test between a std 24mm OKO carb red line, and another OKO 24 bored out to 30mm, blue line. Not as big of a difference as I expected.

The 24mm carb restriction does not stop tuners from making 30hp or more but a 30+hp 125 seems to be beyond what air cooling can handle reliably. Even the air cooled factory race bikes of the 60's and 70's made mid twenties power.

The legitimacy of my carburettor tuning has been questioned because I can make a tuned 24 flow as well as a factory 30. How to do it is no secret.

People have questioned the legitimacy of improving 24mm carbs so they flow better. The same people have never stopped to question the legitimacy of improving cylinders, clearly they are both a legitimate Bucket thing to do.

Personally I would mourn the loss of the 24 rule because I have had so much fun with it. I have found and published so many ways to defeat it (if it ever was a real restriction on power) that it is now irrelevant.

If the 24 thing makes people feel better and they want to continue the comfortable illusion of a 24mm restriction, then sure, that is my first choice but the rule probably needs to be better defined to also cover EFI and throttle plate carbs as well as the usual motorcycle slide carbs. The next best thing is to get rid of both carb restriction rules and cut two complicated unnecessary sentences out of the F4 F5 rule book wording.

In broad terms, carb restrictions are irrelevant in limiting power, but cooling ability is everything.

But that's the kicker if it is truly irrelevant why the need to get rid of it,
I am pretty sure if a bit of development time was spent optimising for a larger carb the HP would go up. and the spread of power would become wider with a larger carb.
Also why do the f4 four strokes need to get bigger? there is no valid explanation offered thus far as for why this needs to happen?

[kel]

Also why do the f4 four strokes need to get bigger? there is no valid explanation offered thus far as for why this needs to happen?
did someone say 110cc 2 strokes :rolleyes:

[mr bucketracer]

Originally Posted by husaberg)
Also why do the f4 four strokes need to get bigger? there is no valid explanation offered thus far as for why this needs to happen?...................
its the only rule that should change ,only wait for the blow ups

[TZ350]

No one has explained why all of a sudden all the other bikes CC need to get bigger but not the 100cc 2 strokes.

The 100cc 2T's have the 110cc re bore allowance so are now effectively 110's, a 10% increase.



If the restriction is so unimportant there thus should be no issue leaving it in place then is there............... that old silly rule was designed to be a restriction.

That is my angle too.

That silly old rule does not work as a restriction. And if it is going to be left in place I think it needs to be better defined to cover a wider range of carburettor types and EFI.

[TZ350]

But that's the kicker if it is truly irrelevant why the need to get rid of it, I am pretty sure if a bit of development time was spent optimising for a larger carb the HP would go up.

Probably the hp may go up but the kicker is that aircooled 125 2T engines are limited to something less than 30rwhp by the thermal limitations of their engines cooling system. It does not matter how big a carb you have and power you make on the dyno, it looks like, that in reality 125 air cooleds are limited to something less than 30hp out on the track if they want to finish a race without melting.

The thought for the day:-

The carburettor is only a small part of a 2T's "transfer efficiency"

If you want to really improve a 2T's performance then concentrate on the "trapping efficiency"

Improving the "trapping efficiency" can improve power and power spread. One way of improving power spread is to improve the "trapping efficiency" by lowering the internal pressure in the pipe when the engine is below peak torque rpm.

Less standing pressure in the pipe means less incoming charge is pushed back down the transfers after BDC and "trapping efficiency" is improved in the lower rpm range.

You will get more low end toque from less standing pressure in the pipe than by fitting any sort of big carburettor.

[jasonu]

I think it is nothing to do with the carb, thermal melt down will be due to the air cooling being unable to shed the waste heat generated from 30+hp.

319579

I once did a back to back test between a std 24mm OKO carb red line, and another OKO 24 bored out to 30mm, blue line. Both carbs were identical in style and layout and both with jetting optimized. Not as big a difference as I expected.

The 24mm carb restriction does not stop tuners from making 30hp or more but a 30+hp 125 seems to have gone beyond what air cooling can handle reliably. Even the air cooled factory race bikes of the 60's and 70's only made mid twenties power.

The legitimacy of my carburettor tuning has been questioned because I can make a tuned 24 flow as well as a factory 30. How to do it is no secret.

People have questioned the legitimacy of improving 24mm carbs so they flow better. The same people have never stopped to question the legitimacy of improving 2T cylinders, clearly they are both a legitimate Bucket thing to do.

Personally I would mourn the loss of the 24 rule because I have had so much fun with it. I have found and published so many ways to defeat it (if it was ever a real restriction on power???) that it is now irrelevant.

If the 24 thing makes people feel better and they want to continue with the comfortable illusion of a 24mm restriction, then sure, that is my first choice but the rule probably needs to be better defined to also cover EFI and throttle plate carbs like the Tillotson pumper as well as the usual motorcycle slide carbs.

The next best thing is to get rid of both carb restriction rules and cut two complicated unnecessary sentences out of the F4 F5 rule book wording.

In broad terms, carb restrictions are irrelevant in limiting power, but cooling ability is everything and air cooling does not cut it.


Mate I have no issue with the way you or anyone else has gone about improving the 24mm carb.

IMO to comply with the 24mm carb rule as long as, somewhere in the throat of the carb or carbs, there is a restriction that has a CSA of no more than 452 sq mm (ie3.14x144) AND MUST BE ABLE TO PROVE IT I'm good with it. It doesn't matter if it is a small carb(s) that has been bored out or a big carb(s) with a restrictor installed or if the throat(s) is round or oval.
I know stuff all about FI so cannot comment as to if a 24mm throttle body is comparable to a 24mm carb.

[husaberg]

The 100cc 2T's have the 110cc re bore allowance so are now effectively 110's, a 10% increase.



That silly old rule does not work as a restriction. And if it is going to be left in place I think it needs to be better defined to cover a wider range of carburettor types and EFI.

Re the 110cc, That is not what was written and what you thought was a great idea though. Go back and have a look a page or two back
PS still no one has explained how a 170cc is a rebore allowance for a 148cc bike

In order to not completely obsolete some of the existing buckets my 11pm at night half pissed idea for buckets would be:

4T - 200cc 2 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 170cc 4 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 160cc 4 valve Water cooled Non Competition
4T - 150cc Competition Engine

2T - 125cc Air Cooled Non Competition
2T - 105cc Water Cooled Non Competition
2T - 85cc Competition Engine
Again - Less rules means less bullshit!!!!!!



Love it .... now if only someone would put in a reduced rules submission.




Hint there was a valid reason for the 110cc to do with pistons not being available:innocent:
Re the carb the rule seems to be working no protests etc what you did with the venturi is perfectly legit.
I have never seen anyone question it, Plenty of people think the restriction works, otherwise why get rid of it.
I am pretty sure the spread of power would be far wider with a larger carb likely more over rev as well.

[jasonu]

The 100cc 2T's have the 110cc re bore allowance so are now effectively 110's, a 10% increase.

.

Did I read correctly that 104cc to 110cc water cooled 2T will have a 24mm carb restriction?????

[husaberg]

Did I read correctly that 104cc to 110cc water cooled 2T will have a 24mm carb restriction?????

When it was introduced a few guys were very adamant that this was in place as a restriction.


did someone say 110cc 2 strokes :rolleyes:

Go back and have a look at the post I quoted.

while you are at it explain how the carb is a restriction that has to be in place one year but is totally irrelevant the next when it suits you.


I think the restricted carb would have been a deliberate decision, 110cc water cooled, open carb would make everything else obsolete.
:facepalm:


I may well be proved wrong but I think we have pretty much found the limit for power production from the 24mm carb without the aid of a plenum or the like
A reliable 30hp out of a 110cc water cooler would be a piece of cake, its f##k all work and easily the winning option. This rule change is the nail in the air cooler coffin. Next year lets clear the way for an open carb size and finally push the 125 air coolers to the back of the sheds


Up to 110cc can be water cooled, but if greater than 104cc then restricted to 24mm carb.

[TZ350]

Did I read correctly that 104cc to 110cc water cooled 2T will have a 24mm carb restriction?????

Currently, Yes.

[TZ350]

Probably the hp may go up but the kicker is that aircooled 125 2T engines are limited to something less than 30rwhp by the thermal limitations of their engines cooling system. It does not matter how big a carb you have and power you make on the dyno, it looks like, that in reality 125 air cooleds are limited to something less than 30hp out on the track if they want to finish a race without melting.

The thought for the day:-

The carburettor is only a small part of a 2T's "transfer efficiency"

If you want to really improve a 2T's performance then concentrate on the "trapping efficiency"

Improving the "trapping efficiency" can improve power and power spread. One way of improving power spread is to improve the "trapping efficiency" by lowering the internal pressure in the pipe when the engine is below peak torque rpm.

Less standing pressure in the pipe means less incoming charge is pushed back down the transfers after BDC and "trapping efficiency" is improved in the lower rpm range.

You will get more low end toque from less standing pressure in the pipe than by fitting any sort of big carburettor.

Did anybody see this about improving power and power spread by improving the trapping efficiency????

[jasonu]

Currently, Yes.

Was this a rule put in place or was it an unintended consequence of allowing water cooled 2t's 110cc?

[TZ350]

When it was introduced a few guys were very adamant that this was in place as a restriction.

They can be as adamant as they like, but they are wrong about it being an effective restriction. And I am adamant about that because I have tested the idea and have posted the back to back dyno results.

[TZ350]

Was this a rule put in place or was it an unintended consequence of allowing water cooled 2t's 110cc?

Looks like an unintended consequence.

[husaberg]

They can be as adamant as they like, but they are wrong about it being an effective restriction. I am adamant about that because I have tested the idea and have posted the back to back dyno results.

Correct, you did post the results of a one off test on a bike that had been optimised over a number of years for a 24mm carb. i certainly never expected an imediate huge increase in power from a one off test with a bike optimised for a smaller carb . Did you?
I was surprised at the time how little it was initially, but then again your bike ihas been developed fror a long time all arround this one restriction.

[TZ350]

Chapter 16 – Road Racing – Miniature

16.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motor and transmission parts are not permitted.

There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility.

All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged.


Plus...


4T - 200cc 2 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 170cc 4 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 160cc 4 valve Water cooled Non Competition
4T - 150cc Competition Engine

2T - 125cc Air Cooled Non Competition
2T - 105cc Water Cooled Non Competition
2T - 85cc Competition Engine

These are maximum capacities, there is no overbore allowance.

- Less rules means less bullshit!!!!!!

It is not perfect but something like this is a whole lot simpler than the Ausie rules.

[TZ350]

Correct, you did post the results of a one off test on a bike

Show me their tests on any bike ....... :bleh: ... I back what I say with evidence, let us see their evidence, I bet there is none other than group think blindly clinging to an old wives tale.

[kel]

while you are at it explain how the carb is a restriction that has to be in place one year but is totally irrelevant the next when it suits you.
Read the quote and try again

[husaberg]

Read the quote and try again

I did read them all you said without the carb restriction the 110 would have too much power, You even repeated it a few more times for dramatic effect.
You even said you viewed it as a deliberate move on the MNZ behalf to limit the power. You stated quite clearly if the restriction on 110cc 24mm carb was lifted nothing would keep up with them.



I think the restricted carb would have been a deliberate decision, 110cc water cooled, open carb would make everything else obsolete.
:facepalm:


I may well be proved wrong but I think we have pretty much found the limit for power production from the 24mm carb without the aid of a plenum or the like
A reliable 30hp out of a 110cc water cooler would be a piece of cake, its f##k all work and easily the winning option. This rule change is the nail in the air cooler coffin. Next year lets clear the way for an open carb size and finally push the 125 air coolers to the back of the sheds


Up to 110cc can be water cooled, but if greater than 104cc then restricted to 24mm carb.


Rob has suggested carb restrictions also in the past

I was just thinking NC (non competition) 125 2T but may be NC air cooled no other restriction and NC 125 2T water cooled with a suitable carb restriction.
.

actually most of the international kart classes are controlled by carb size as well, they view it as a fair way of keeping the playing feild even

[TZ350]

Rob has suggested carb restrictions also in the past

Proposing a group think 24mm comfy blanket as part of a new capacity rule is not the same as claiming there is evidence of its suitability for the purpose.

319582

I used to believe but now, personally I don't think it will do you much good at all.


Correct, you did post the results of a one off test on a bike

I back what I say with evidence, let us see their evidence, I bet there is none other than group think blindly clinging to an old wives tale. But you could convince me, the people who are so adamant, just show me their tests, even on one bike will do.......

[TZ350]

actually most of the international kart classes are controlled by carb size as well, they view it as a fair way of keeping the playing field even

319583

How many ostriches with their heads in the sand does it take to make a false assertion true.

[husaberg]

319583

How many ostriches with their heads in the sand does it take to make a false assertion true.

It was at least three last year, do we need to adjust for inflation:scratch:


I think the restricted carb would have been a deliberate decision, 110cc water cooled, open carb would make everything else obsolete.
:facepalm:


I may well be proved wrong but I think we have pretty much found the limit for power production from the 24mm carb without the aid of a plenum or the like
A reliable 30hp out of a 110cc water cooler would be a piece of cake, its f##k all work and easily the winning option. This rule change is the nail in the air cooler coffin. Next year lets clear the way for an open carb size and finally push the 125 air coolers to the back of the sheds


Up to 110cc can be water cooled, but if greater than 104cc then restricted to 24mm carb.

Here is the rub
When you have two people both who coincidently both have air cooled bikes both suggesting the 24mm carb restriction is utterly irelevent anyway. Why is it so relevent that it must be removed?
I didn't see anyone suggesting that Kel was talking shit when he claimed the carb restiction would limit the power on a 110cc last year.

[BelindaS]

Hi. Everyone. My original question was

"New here. I'm looking at getting into bucket racing. And I'm very glade I came across this thread.
I was wondering if someone could explain to me the Competition Bike Rule i.e meaning"

Thank You for your replies to my question.


Engines must be based on non competition engines , so no gp bike , motocross , go kart or other competition engines or gearbox parts
a good guide would be commuter bikes. FXR150 is not a competition engine




A definition of a competition engine is needed but that's past my pay grade to think about.



I understand the 16.2 Rule.
- Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles (no GP). Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motor and transmission parts are not permitted.

So now I would like to know the definition of a "competition engine".

So if a FXR150 is not a competition engine.
What would have to happen to class it as competition engine.

[seymour14]

Hi. Everyone. My original question was

"New here. I'm looking at getting into bucket racing. And I'm very glade I came across this thread.
I was wondering if someone could explain to me the Competition Bike Rule i.e meaning"

Thank You for your replies to my question.







I understand the 16.2 Rule.
- Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles (no GP). Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motor and transmission parts are not permitted.

So now I would like to know the definition of a "competition engine".

So if a FXR150 is not a competition engine.
What would have to happen to class it as competition engine.

It would have been produced by its manufacturer for the sole purpose of racing, to be a competition engine.

I am waiting to find an RS125 commuter bike... Anyone got an aftermarket acetylene lighting kit?;)

[Yow Ling]

Hi. Everyone. My original question was

"New here. I'm looking at getting into bucket racing. And I'm very glade I came across this thread.
I was wondering if someone could explain to me the Competition Bike Rule i.e meaning"

Thank You for your replies to my question.







I understand the 16.2 Rule.
- Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles (no GP). Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motor and transmission parts are not permitted.

So now I would like to know the definition of a "competition engine".

So if a FXR150 is not a competition engine.
What would have to happen to class it as competition engine.

?Do you have an engine you are unsure about, ask our panel of experts

[BelindaS]

?Do you have an engine you are unsure about, ask our panel of experts

Hi Yow Ling

I'm pretty sure my question has been answered clearly, If I have correctly understood seymour14 kind reply to my question.


It would have been produced by its manufacturer for the sole purpose of racing, to be a competition engine.

I am waiting to find an RS125 commuter bike... Anyone got an aftermarket acetylene lighting kit?;)

The Honda RS125 is a competition Bike/engine
the Aprilia RS125 is not a competition Bike/engine. ( even though it looks like one )

Thank You for everyone's input in helping me with this.

Cheers B

[TZ350]

It was at least three last year, do we need to adjust for inflation:scratch:

Some of those beach bumbs are inflated.

[TZ350]

I was wondering if someone could explain to me the Competition Bike Rule i.e meaning"

I understand the 16.2 Rule.
- Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles (no GP). Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motor and transmission parts are not permitted.

So now I would like to know the definition of a "competition engine".

So if a FXR150 is not a competition engine.
What would have to happen to class it as competition engine.

319586

This bike has a competition engine.

319587

This bike does not.

For Buckets you start with something non competition like the FXR150 commuter bike, and work on it as much as you wish. The rule is, "based on a non competition engine" then you can hot it up as much as you like.

But pretty much a near std FXR150 will make a very good F4 race bike.

[kel]

Here is the rub
When you have two people both who coincidently both have air cooled bikes both suggesting the 24mm carb restriction is utterly irelevent anyway.


I think the restricted carb would have been a deliberate decision, 110cc water cooled, open carb would make everything else obsolete.
:facepalm:



This rule change is the nail in the air cooler coffin. Next year lets clear the way for an open carb size and finally push the 125 air coolers to the back of the sheds

Find your quote where have I said that the 24mm carb is irrelevant. What I have said is that the true limitation to air coolers is ...

You are absolutely right, there's an inherent design flaw i.e. air cooling.
Have a look at the air cooled racers and motocrossers from the seventies , they never made the sort of power we are pulling out of these things. The Japanese aren't silly, they could have made more power but they new to win first you have to finish. :crazy:

We should call you selective edit!

[kel]

Here is the rub
When you have two people both who coincidently both have air cooled bikes.
Oh we sing from the same song sheet don't you worry about that. Besides, he's my mate and he has a dyno :shutup:

[mr bucketracer]

Find your quote where have I said that the 24mm carb is irrelevant. What I have said is that the true limitation to air coolers is ...


24mm carb is irrelevant!!oh man after all are work you say it now:laugh:

[TALLIS]

Aprilia RS125 is not a competition Bike/engine. ( even though it looks like one )

Thank You for everyone's input in helping me with this.

Cheers B

Yes please do bring a aprilia 125 down to your local track. To be fair, if it is air cooled, I guess it is a comutter bike?

[BelindaS]

319586

This bike has a competition engine.

319587

This bike does not.

For Buckets you start with something non competition like the FXR150 commuter bike, and work on it as much as you wish. The rule is, "based on a non competition engine" then you can hot it up as much as you like.

But pretty much a near std FXR150 will make a very good F4 race bike.


Hi. TZ350
Thank You for your reply.

If I have this right. The first pic is of a Honda MX bike that competes in FIM sanctioned, malty manufactures, MX bike race. Competing not only for rider points but also Manufacturer points as well. So therefore a competition Bike/engine.
The second pic is of a Ducati Monster 1. A road bike. Which may have competed at club level events or even a one make series. However this still a Non Competition Bike/engine.

I hope that I have this correct :sweatdrop:sweatdrop:sweatdrop

Cheers B

[TZ350]

If I have this right. The first pic is of a Honda MX bike that competes in FIM sanctioned, MX bike races. So therefore a competition Bike/engine.

The second pic is of a Ducati Monster 1. A road bike. Which may have competed at club level events or even a one make series. However this is still a Non Competition Bike/engine.

Yes, exactly right, there are factory specific race bikes and factory road bikes. We are allowed to use anything made by the factory for non competition use, which usually means road use. Some exceptions exist, piston and ignition to name two, are open and can come from anything.

There are specific capacity limits for Bucket racers but that does not stop someone using parts from a bigger capacity road bike engine or any non competition motorcycle engine and modifying them in all sorts of ways so long as the final engine capacity is within the Bucket rules.

The majority of Bucket bikes are basically standard FXR150's and a great deal of good racing is done with them. There are only a crazy few who go all out in the tuning stakes, I am not sure it does them any good and you do not have to go there to have a good time with Buckets, unless you want to of course.

PS, Hp on its own is over rated, it is the complete bike and rider package that makes a winning formula.

[timg]

Hp on its own is over rated, it is the complete bike and rider package that makes a winning formula.But for folks like me with bugger all talent HP sure helps! :innocent:

[seymour14]

But for folks like me with bugger all talent HP sure helps! :innocent:

HP in the South Island is beneficial.

But us Northies are all Torque...:rolleyes:

Torque is the most useful tool on a Kart track.

[F5 Dave]

Its the most useful tool on KB.

[timg]

HP in the South Island is beneficial.

But us Northies are all talk...:rolleyes:

Talk is the most useful tool on a Kart track. Fixed it for ya :bleh:

[TZ350]

Naturally my interest is the 24mm carb equivalent rule and how it should be measured and should it be updated to specifically include EFI or done away with all together. Rule change submissions close 1st March. Input on the 24mm rule or any Bucket racing rule for that matter that interests others would be welcome.

Nothing hidden, the very 1st post on this thread declared my interest.


To me a "total inlet orifice area of 452mm2" looks a better definition than "24mm carb equivalent".

The very 2nd post shows the direction of my thinking.


Here is the rub When you have two people both who coincidently have air cooled bikes both suggesting the 24mm carb restriction is utterly irrelevant anyway. Why is it so irrelevant that it must be removed?

The rub is that people get involved with what interests them.


There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs.

So Cams are open, pistons are open, ignitions are open, carbs are open, etc.

So ""no restriction on make or design of carburettor"" no restriction on make, that is me, as I am the maker or design, my own design of high flow venturi insert carburettors. I make these from other manufactures carburettor bodies. So total, totally legal, they also make the 24 thing ineffective as a restriction. Also there is the dawning of the 2T EFI throttle body thing becoming a reality.

With MNZ's hopelessly confused clarification. I wanted to see if we could formulate a better way of defining "equivalent to a single 24mm carb" without changing the original thrust of the rule, which was basically, all air through an equivalent 24mm hole.

I am not fussed, keep the rule, change the rule or level the playing field carburetor wise by doing away with the rule.

In hindsight and experience I think it has always been an ineffective rule. But the only way I will lose anything is if the 24mm rule is dropped. The rules may be simpler but I will have lost all of the perceived benefit I may have gained from my hard work.

That is the real rub.

[speedpro]

From a long way away and having plenty of time to consider this discussion, I can honestly say that I see this as a way of allowing the "restriction" to be located seperate from the carburetor. The adantages are obvious. For example a "restrictor" could be placed at the inlet of an airbox which in turn feeds a large carb mounted on the engine with obvious advantages of packaging and throttle control.
I don't think the rule is broken despite the difficulty and confusion trying to be made of it. I think the issues have been created to justify a rule update which would allow changes as described above.
I'd be happy to delete the rule as long as the 125cc engines were banned at the same time. It does seem that the increase to 125cc 2Ts was a mistake

[jasonu]

[QUOTE=TZ350;1130948582]

I am not fussed, keep the rule, change the rule or level the playing field carburetor wise by doing away with the rule.

In hindsight and experience I think it has always been an ineffective rule. QUOTE]

Because of the rule the playing field is mostly level. What is the most HP a 100cc 2t water cooled motor has made? 25ish HP? The top 150cc 4t's? 27ish hp? I see reports of all types of F4 machinery doing the winning.
Maybe if you 125cc 2t guys aimed a bit lower HP wise your motors would be a bit less stressed, would make a bit less heat and might last long enough to do a bit of winning.

The rule has done its job exactly as intended. It made eligible a new type of motor into a failing class while limiting those new motors enough so as not to immediately over power the existing machinery.

[TZ350]

Because of the rule the playing field is mostly level. What is the most HP a 100cc 2t water cooled motor has made? 25ish HP?

Maybe if you 125cc 2t guys aimed a bit lower HP wise your motors would be a bit less stressed, would make a bit less heat and might last long enough to do a bit of winning.

Best I have personally seen from 100cc 2T is 30hp, the graph has been posted on this thread.

""Maybe if you 125cc 2t guys aimed a bit lower HP wise your motors would be a bit less stressed"" agreed and that has been the point of a lot of this discussion, that air cooled 125 2T's are limited by their cooling system.

As you're post pointed out, a 125 2T air cooled engine can make 30hp too but they are more thermally limited than they are limited by the supposed 24mm carb restriction.

Also a bigger carb won't make an air cooled 125 2T run cooler, 30hp of air drawn through a 24 or 34 or 44mm carb is still 30hp worth of waste heat to get rid of. There is no extra air going through the the motor, 30hp is 30hp, if there was extra air then it would be 30+hp.

[jasonu]

Also a bigger carb won't make an air cooled 125 2T run cooler, 30hp of air drawn through a 24 or 34 or 44mm carb is still 30hp worth of waste heat to get rid of. There is no extra air going through the the motor, 30hp is 30hp, if there was extra air then it would be 30+hp.

More fuel/oil must also mean more air (if there wasn't more air it would be running rich) which in turn would add to the amount of cooling.

[TZ350]

More fuel/oil must also mean more air (if there wasn't more air it would be running rich) which in turn would add to the amount of cooling.

It could be made to run rich whatever size carburetor you use.

30hp = 30hp = 30hp = the same amount of air/fuel and waste heat regardless of the size of carburetor the 30hp worth of air was inducted through by the engine.

[TZ350]

But that's the kicker if it is truly irrelevant why the need to get rid of it,

There is no "need" unless you want to start tiding up the rules. 1st of March, two weeks time is the dead line for this year, that's the "need".

[seymour14]

There is no "need" unless you want to start tiding up the rules. 1st of March, two weeks time is the dead line for this year, that's the "need".

Well I propose that Water-cooled 2ts go back to 104cc, the tried and true capacity, and we all go on our merry way...

Crisis and arms race averted, Doomsday Clock gets put back to 11am.:killingme

[jasonu]

There is no "need" unless you want to start tiding up the rules. 1st of March, two weeks time is the dead line for this year, that's the "need".

What you are proposing is more than a 'tidy up'. Getting rid of the 24mm carb rule is a significant change that, by your admission will change the way you go about building a 125cc 2T air cooled motor.

[seymour14]

What you are proposing is more than a 'tidy up'. Getting rid of the 24mm carb rule is a significant change that, by your admission will change the way you go about building a 125cc 2T air cooled motor.

Someone needs to fill me in with history. Have the air cooled 2ts been successful in the past? Or more to the point, too successful?

If not, the suspicion is they may do well on big tracks, but as Regan says, you roll the dice on the smaller ones. Thermal conductivity plays a big part, but whether the rule changes or not, it will be fun to play around with more and see what can be achieved within whatever rules apply to it. Our dyno runs look promising with a 24mm carb, but reality says that the bike still needs to finish a race...

As to water-cooled 2ts, they are already proven successful, it would be sad to make them the only bikes worth while having (buying). I would be proposing to the whole team to buy up 110cc engines if the rules stay as they are.

[cotswold]

[Q
Maybe if you 125cc 2t guys aimed a bit lower HP wise your motors would be a bit less stressed, would make a bit less heat and might last long enough to do a bit of winning.

you only need to check out Rick Fords TF125 to prove that sentence correct, it's won F4 Auckland Championship and the North Island Championship with not much more than 20BHP, oh and Avalon lapped an entire north island field on a 25bhp GP125. You do not need 30bhp to win a series you need a GOOD RIDER on a RELIABLE bike which HANDLES well, you sure as hell will not win series on a rocket ship that spends 1/2 the rounds in bits.

[seymour14]

[Q
Maybe if you 125cc 2t guys aimed a bit lower HP wise your motors would be a bit less stressed, would make a bit less heat and might last long enough to do a bit of winning.

you only need to check out Rick Fords TF125 to prove that sentence correct, it's won F4 Auckland Championship and the North Island Championship with not much more than 20BHP, oh and Avalon lapped an entire north island field on a 25bhp GP125. You do not need 30bhp to win a series you need a GOOD RIDER on a RELIABLE bike which HANDLES well, you sure as hell will not win series on a rocket ship that spends 1/2 the rounds in bits.

More to the point the nikasil peeled off twice... third time was a squish error on a used and reused gasket. Point I was making is that I am happy with 24mm carb or its 452mm squared derivative, if TZ changes that to bring it in line with a rule that works, all good.

My objection is that the rule change for the water coolers has got out of sync with the rest, and will create a class biased towards bought in motors. Mark my words, wait and see...

[TZ350]

Well I propose that Water-cooled 2ts go back to 104cc, the tried and true capacity, and we all go on our merry way...

Crisis and arms race averted, Doomsday Clock gets put back to 11am.:killingme

This would suit me the best as I already have a 104cc crank for my 2T water cooler and would be my personally favored option.

My next personally favored option would be to give the 125 2T's the same 10% over bore allowance that the 100's have been allowed because a group wanted to use over sized pistons without having to go to the trouble of de stroking to stay within the 100cc capacity limit. Then there are the 4T's, and that should be re visited too.


by your admission will change the way you go about building a 125cc 2T air cooled motor.

Still have the thermal limit issue with a air cooled 125 2T whatever way you go carburetor wise.


What you are proposing is more than a 'tidy up'. Getting rid of the 24mm carb rule is a significant change.

True, but there is starting to be a ground swell for change, mostly tidying the rules up, bringing them all into one place and revisiting the capacity limits to allow a broader range of choice.

Before submission cut off is a good time to talk about it and by starting this thread I have tried to get the conversation out of the back rooms and going publicly so you me and everyone else can have our say.

[cotswold]

More to the point the nikasil peeled off twice... third time was a squish error on a used and reused gasket. Point I was making is that I am happy with 24mm carb or its 452mm squared derivative, if TZ changes that to bring it in line with a rule that works, all good.

My objection is that the rule change for the water coolers has got out of sync with the rest, and will create a class biased towards bought in motors. Mark my words, wait and see...

I'm with you on the 110 thing, hell the winningest bike is an 80cc so go figure

[Moooools]

I see this as a way of allowing the "restriction" to be located seperate from the carburetor. The adantages are obvious. For example a "restrictor" could be placed at the inlet of an airbox which in turn feeds a large carb mounted on the engine with obvious advantages of packaging and throttle control.


1. Really easy to make the rule say "The restriction must be down stream of any throttling device". Once you say that it gets very hard to make power without a lot of work and big sacrifices to response. See attached photo for a 450cc single cylinder intake flowing through a 20mm restrictor that is placed down-stream of the throttle and still making 50ish HP. But seriosly hard to tune, annoying to package and as I would never put it anywhere near a bike.


2. I don't think the rule should be gotten rid of all thogether. At the very least it is making the 125 Air-Cooleds harder to make and run, which is another way of creating a bit of parity.

3. DO NOT MAKE AN AREA BASED MEASUREMENT. Oh please god don't do it. Why? Because there is no tool that we keep in our toolboxes that directly measures area. If you can't measure it directly, it is not enforcable, and the problem hasnt been fixed at all. All it would take is one guy to turn up say, a spiral shaped restrictor, and the rule is buggered.

A downstream (of the throttle plate) restrictor with a maximum chordal measurment of 24mm is very, very easy to enforce. It will go something like this:

Guy One: "Guy two is cheating, his restrictor is too big"

Official: "Guy two, where is your restrictor?"

Guy 2: "Right here, infact, my restrictor is part of the outlet of my 24mm carb. Let me take it off so you can measure it"

Offiial: "Okay, let me get out my standard set of calipers...... Hey! I can measure more than 24mm with both of the internal jaws on my calipers inside the bore of your restrictor. You are cheating"

Guy 2: "Oh damn. I thought I was legal. Good thing I am only racing C grade. I will go fix it now"

Guy 1: "Official, Thanks for securing my chances of taking 8th place in C grade this year. I am glad the rules are so easy to enforce."

[TZ350]

All good points in your post ....

Interesting racers, and at Mt Wellington too.

Would love to see more photos of them and the engine setup.


1. Really easy to make the rule say "The restriction must be down stream of any throttling device". Once you say that it gets very hard to make power without a lot of work and big sacrifices to response. See attached photo for a 450cc single cylinder intake flowing through a 20mm restrictor that is placed down-stream of the throttle and still making 50ish HP."

Out of interest, what are the chances of a larger diameter restrictor effectively throttling a smaller motor.

20mm dia restrictor + 450cc = 50ish hp.

24mm dia restrictor + 125cc = ????? hp. what do you recon, and would the compromised air cooling become a limiting factor before the throttle restriction does?

[FastFred]

Out of interest, what are the chances of a larger diameter restrictor effectively throttling a smaller motor.

20mm dia restrictor + 450cc = 50ish hp.

24mm dia restrictor + 125cc = ????? hp. what do you recon, and would the compromised air cooling become a limiting factor before the throttle restriction does?

Interesting discussion. And it would be very telling to have a knowledgeable reply to TZ's question. A bit of a decider really.

[speedpro]

I'm with you on the 110 thing, hell the winningest bike is an 80cc so go figure

Currently the winningest bike is Rick's 125. I'm still waiting for a doomsday 110cc 2T to be built, or even a "non-doomsday" 110cc 2T. A perfectly legal 80cc bike is doing well in Auckland. Perfectly legal because the owner saya so and there has not been a protest and subsequent ruling.

[jasonu]

My objection is that the rule change for the water coolers has got out of sync with the rest, and will create a class biased towards bought in motors. Mark my words, wait and see...


I'm with you on the 110 thing, hell the winningest bike is an 80cc so go figure

Don't forget a water cooled 2t from 104cc to 110cc IS SUBJECT TO THE SAME 24mm carb rule as the 125 2t aircooled motors.

[Moooools]

All good points in your post ....

Interesting racers, and at Mt Wellington too.

Would love to see more photos of them and the engine setup.



Out of interest, what are the chances of a larger diameter restrictor effectively throttling a smaller motor.

20mm dia restrictor + 450cc = 50ish hp.

24mm dia restrictor + 125cc = ????? hp. what do you recon, and would the compromised air cooling become a limiting factor before the throttle restriction does?

A 20mm restrictor can theoretically flow heaps more than 50hp. With a 30% thermal efficiency in the engine, some napkin math is saying more like 90hp is possible. (Anecdotally I know this to be a bit conservative). However, even though the engine only needs 60hp of air, the air does not flow continuously through the restrictor, and instead pulses once every second cycle as the inlet valves open. This restricts the maximum power output of the engine, and the intake plenum is there to smooth out these pulses. (You would know all of this Rob, but just here for completeness). Multi-cylinder engines reduce the pulsing a great deal, and some 4cylinder 600cc engines are producing 80HP+ through the 20mm restrictor.
I have heard accounts of some 450cc single cylinder engines being restricted down to about 18hp by the 20mm restrictor when not using any plenum at all. (But still with a nice converging/diverging restrictor). These are usually teams that have run out of time to make a plenum however so maybe not entirely indicative of the absolute limits of performance with this arrangement.

A 24mm restrictor has 44% more area and so by the same math will flow 130HP+ as continuous choked flow. The two strokes engines used in buckets are smaller capacity, higher revving, small displacement, and pull twice as often as a four stroke (being two stroke). I would therefore expect much less pulsing through the restrictor, and so a higher HP limit. At the very minimum with a nice restrictor I would say 40hp is possible. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more at all.

Some napkin math I did the other day estimating the amount of air required to cool an air cooled engine making 40hp is over 1.5m3/s. Like...a lot. So yes I would say that that limit comes first currently.

HOWEVER - Just because cooling limit comes before intake air limit, it does not mean that the rule has no effect the class. Careful consideration of restrictor design, carb selection, tuning and engineering outside of the normal scope of two stroke building is required to make it all 'click'. This requirement takes development time away from other aspects of the engine, which helps to keep development speed in line with other engine configurations. As such I think the rule is working, and should only be modified for clarity and ability to be applied to EFI.

[TZ350]

A 24mm restrictor has 44% more area and so by the same math will flow 130HP+ as continuous choked flow. The two strokes engines used in buckets are smaller capacity, higher revving, small displacement, and pull twice as often as a four stroke (being two stroke). I would therefore expect much less pulsing through the restrictor, and so a higher HP limit. At the very minimum with a nice restrictor I would say 40hp is possible. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more at all.

Some napkin math I did the other day estimating the amount of air required to cool an air cooled engine making 40hp is over 1.5m3/s. Like...a lot. So yes I would say that that limit comes first currently.

HOWEVER - Just because cooling limit comes before thermal efficiency limit, it does not mean that the rule does not affect the bike. Careful consideration of restrictor design, carb selection, tuning and engineering outside of the normal scope of two stroke building is required to make it all 'click'. This requirement takes development time away from other aspects of the engine, which helps to keep development speed in line with other engine configurations. As such I think the rule is working, and should only be modified for clarity and ability to be applied to EFI.

Thanks for that, very interesting to see some numbers.

[FastFred]

A 24mm restrictor has 44% more area and so by the same math will flow 130HP+ as continuous choked flow.

Ya for science, I guess nobody is seriously expecting 130+hp from a 125cc 2T but it sort of shows the folly of a 24mm carb restriction.

[husaberg]

So ""no restriction on make or design of carburettor"" no restriction on make, that is me, as I am the maker or design, my own design of high flow venturi insert carburettors. I make these from other manufactures carburettor bodies. So total, totally legal, they also make the 24 thing ineffective as a restriction. Also there is the dawning of the 2T EFI throttle body thing becoming a reality.

With MNZ's hopelessly confused clarification. I wanted to see if we could formulate a better way of defining "equivalent to a single 24mm carb" without changing the original thrust of the rule, which was basically, all air through an equivalent 24mm hole.

I am not fussed, keep the rule, change the rule or level the playing field carburetor wise by doing away with the rule.

In hindsight and experience I think it has always been an ineffective rule. But the only way I will lose anything is if the 24mm rule is dropped. The rules may be simpler but I will have lost all of the perceived benefit I may have gained from my hard work.

That is the real rub.


There is no "need" unless you want to start tiding up the rules. 1st of March, two weeks time is the dead line for this year, that's the "need".


Someone needs to fill me in with history. Have the air cooled 2ts been successful in the past? Or more to the point, too successful?

If not, the suspicion is they may do well on big tracks, but as Regan says, you roll the dice on the smaller ones. Thermal conductivity plays a big part, but whether the rule changes or not, it will be fun to play around with more and see what can be achieved within whatever rules apply to it. Our dyno runs look promising with a 24mm carb, but reality says that the bike still needs to finish a race...

As to water-cooled 2ts, they are already proven successful, it would be sad to make them the only bikes worth while having (buying). I would be proposing to the whole team to buy up 110cc engines if the rules stay as they are.


My recollection of the intent of the rule (that allowed 125 2T's to be introduced) was two pronged restriction air cooling and 24mm throat.
I needs to be remembered at the time and as it is still now hardly any 100cc 2 strokes were actually water cooled.
Even Speedpros 30HP is partially air-cooled likely even achieved the 30hp without the water cooled head. (Mike can confirm)

If the MNZ considered it farcical why did they include the 110cc with the same 24mm restriction.

[FastFred]

If the MNZ considered it farcical why did they include the 110cc with the same 24mm restriction.

Don't think they included it, its in a different part of the MOM's, nobody reminded them so they just forgot to take it out or adjust it for 110.

[husaberg]

Don't think they included it, its in a different part of the MOM's so they just forgot to take it out or adjust it for 110.

Are they really that useless? Even I find that hard to fathom. Has anyone got the original ruling and submission?

IMO the fact that the restricted 125 2ts are producing around exactly the same hp as the unrestricted 100cc 2ts proves to me the current restriction rule work.

[jasonu]

are they really that useless? .
Not so much useless, rather they just don't give a fuck about Buckets. (except of course for the huge amounts of cash the class generates...)

[TZ350]

Has anyone got the original ruling and submission?

No, it did not come from us.

[Pumba]

Would love to see more photos of them and the engine setup.

Plenty of photos here https://www.facebook.com/UoAfsae/photos_stream even a few of the car. A google image search on Formula SAE throws up some interesting pics as well https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=formula+sae&espv=2&biw=1304&bih=683&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR5t6oy4DLAhWhKaYKHUUsBIcQ_AUIBigB#

[F5 Dave]

OK, let's get one thing clear. Presuming he is capable of learning different bikes, Nathaniel would beat us all on a hot FXR or the GP125 Av made everyone look a bit average on.

Does anyone still have a problem with that?

Ok continue, but stop making out a peaky mid 20s 80 in an NF4 is some sort of magic combination.

[rambaldi]

Plenty of photos here https://www.facebook.com/UoAfsae/photos_stream even a few of the car. A google image search on Formula SAE throws up some interesting pics as well https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=formula+sae&espv=2&biw=1304&bih=683&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR5t6oy4DLAhWhKaYKHUUsBIcQ_AUIBigB#

As evidenced in the photos they have a few of the old cars sitting in the lobby here. I am sure if you sent them a message or something someone would show off the cars to you.

[seymour14]

OK, let's get one thing clear. Presuming he is capable of learning different bikes, Nathaniel would beat us all on a hot FXR or the GP125 Av made everyone look a bit average on.

Does anyone still have a problem with that?

Ok continue, but stop making out a peaky mid 20s 80 in an NF4 is some sort of magic combination.

You obviously have a problem with it cos you keep bringing it up...;)

[TZ350]

Plenty of photos here https://www.facebook.com/UoAfsae/photos_stream even a few of the car. A google image search on Formula SAE throws up some interesting pics as well https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=formula+sae&espv=2&biw=1304&bih=683&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR5t6oy4DLAhWhKaYKHUUsBIcQ_AUIBigB#

Great pictures, thanks Pumba.

[F5 Dave]

No, I've accepted it. On that bike I'd beat at least 1/2 the field, but I'd want to have my bike running well (which it rarely did,;)) before I'd take on say Kel on his 125 or Regan on his 150 and expect to be racing.

I don't think I'd keep up on the Derbi.

[steamroller]

OK, let's get one thing clear. Presuming he is capable of learning different bikes, Nathaniel would beat us all on a hot FXR or the GP125 Av made everyone look a bit average on.

Does anyone still have a problem with that?

Ok continue, but stop making out a peaky mid 20s 80 in an NF4 is some sort of magic combination.

I will bring the old fxr up and we will get him out on it for a ride then look at some lap times then we will all no. I do not think he will go any where near as fast on it.

[F5 Dave]

OK that's one for the magic bike theory.

[TZ350]

Some napkin math I did the other day estimating the amount of air required to cool an air cooled engine making 40hp is over 1.5m3/s. Like...a lot. So yes I would say that that limit comes first currently.

I am not sure what 1.5m3/s looks like and even with ducting if a motorcycle moving at an average of 60km/hr is able to pass that much air over the engine.


HOWEVER - Just because cooling limit comes before intake air limit, it does not mean that the rule has no effect the class. Careful consideration of restrictor design, carb selection, tuning and engineering outside of the normal scope of two stroke building is required to make it all 'click'. This requirement takes development time away from other aspects of the engine, which helps to keep development speed in line with other engine configurations. As such I think the rule is working, and should only be modified for clarity and ability to be applied to EFI.

Not everyone's cup of tea I know, but for me its that affordable engineering challenge that makes Buckets so much fun.

[jasonu]

You obviously have a problem with it cos you keep bringing it up...;)

But it is true.

[goose8]

I will bring the old fxr up and we will get him out on it for a ride then look at some lap times then we will all no. I do not think he will go any where near as fast on it.

I have seen Nathaniel an Gavin do a bike swap at mt Wellington , I didn't get lap times but Gavin was similar speed on Nathaniel's bike after riding it all day to his fxr an Nathaniel looked pretty fast on the fxr after just doing 15 or so laps at the end of the day on it . Would still be interesting to see at tokoroa I'm sure he would be happy to have a go on your bike if you asked.

[mr bucketracer]

But it is true.if his bike and him self is the same weight as me and bike i would beat him in a 10 lap race every time

[steamroller]

I have seen Nathaniel an Gavin do a bike swap at mt Wellington , I didn't get lap times but Gavin was similar speed on Nathaniel's bike after riding it all day to his fxr an Nathaniel looked pretty fast on the fxr after just doing 15 or so laps at the end of the day on it . Would still be interesting to see at tokoroa I'm sure he would be happy to have a go on your bike if you asked.

I think it would be interesting as my fxr is so ruff to ride to the 2t there is no doubt in my mind he is a good rider. him and his bike are the complete package in my mind.

[husaberg]

I am not sure what 1.5m3/s looks like and even with ducting if a motorcycle moving at an average of 60km/hr is able to pass that much air over the engine.


It looks like a pod and a half per second.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjIyWDYyMA==/z/QZkAAOSwnDZULC2T/$_35.JPG

Stephen AKA Briandemarge has done clever like calculations for aircooled bikes before.
I will quote him in order to ask him to post them.


Hahahaaaa. Didn't see that one coming

Sent from my SC-01G using Tapatalk

[goose8]

if his bike and him self is the same weight as me and bike i would beat him in a 10 lap race every timeHis weigHt advantage does help him a lot for sure?

[mr bucketracer]

His weigHt advantage does help him a lot for sure?yes like 50-60 kgs , he could not even stand up with that on his back lol:lol:

[mr bucketracer]

I think it would be interesting as my fxr is so ruff to ride to the 2t there is no doubt in my mind he is a good rider. him and his bike are the complete package in my mind.yip the package

[goose8]

yes like 50-60 kgs , he could not even stand up with that on his back lol:lol:Haha yes I think he is going to have a T least 40kg on me in f5
So will be happy if I can keep him in sight for couple of laps

[mr bucketracer]

Haha yes I think he is going to have a T least 40kg on me in f5
So will be happy if I can keep him in sight for couple of lapsi'm shore you will , good times you were doing last time , feel like given you my 4 stroke to ride ,at least you will last over 16 laps lol

[TZ350]

I'm still waiting for a doomsday 110cc 2T to be built.

319710319711319712319713

You might not have to wait that much longer, 110cc water cooled 2T.

319714

Porting lovelyness

This plenum (on an air cooled engine) has been test ridden at Mt Welly and performed Ok.

I would describe the plenum as softening the throttle response but this had an up side as it was possible to start opening the tap much earlier and get the wave action in the pipe really building up by the time we were exiting the corner, so it launched much harder.

There was another up side to the plenum. On the dyno, depending on configuration (resonance) I could get a big torque boost in the lower rpm range. This could be very useful. A possibility is a variable volume plenum or more practically a plenum divided into two different volume chambers.

[TZ350]

It looks like a pod and a half per second.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjIyWDYyMA==/z/QZkAAOSwnDZULC2T/$_35.JPG

Stephen AKA Briandemarge has done clever like calculations for aircooled bikes before.
I will quote him in order to ask him to post them.

That looks like a lot of air, it will be interesting hear what Brian has to say.

[goose8]

i'm shore you will , good times you were doing last time , feel like given you my 4 stroke to ride ,at least you will last over 16 laps lolI'd love to have a couple of laps on one of the gpr150s At some stage .will see on Sunday how close I can get to Nathaniel in f5

[husaberg]

That looks like a lot of air, it will be interesting hear what Brian has to say.

It does seem a lot, but remember at peak revs, your engine is both consuming and exhausting about the same amount, each and every minute, All through a 24mm and about a 20mm orifice respectively. Plus air is generally pretty abundant at race tracks.;)

[F5 Dave]

You might not have to wait that much longer, 110cc water cooled 2T.

Porting lovelyness

This plenum (on an air cooled engine) has been test ridden at Mt Welly and performed Ok.

I would describe the plenum as softening the throttle response but this had an up side as it was possible to start opening the tap much earlier and get the wave action in the pipe really building up by the time we were exiting the corner, so it launched much harder.

There was another up side to the plenum. On the dyno, depending on configuration (resonance) I could get a big torque boost in the lower rpm range. This could be very useful. A possibility is a variable volume plenum or more practically a plenum divided into two different volume chambers.
If you'd put that GP in a decent chassis with a six speed box you'd get a bigger jump than engine configuration.

[TZ350]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/home-living/outdoor-garden-conservatory/garden-power-tools/leaf-blowers-vacuums/auction-1035878828.htm

319717

There are possibilities, plenty of hi volume/pressure air directed to where its needed.

[F5 Dave]

if his bike and him self is the same weight as me and bike i would beat him in a 10 lap race every time
So you'd have a better handling bike with more power and a better spread and the same weight which would hurt a peaky bike proportionally more. Yeah it would certainly help for sure.

It's not fair that kids are light, but at over 80kg I'm more than a bit heavy for a 50 so I know the feeling.

[TZ350]

If you'd put that GP in a decent chassis with a six speed box you'd get a bigger jump than engine configuration.

319718319719

MC18 chassis, RS forks and rear shock, splitter plate so a six speed can be fitted. When it is ready (hopefully soon) the water cooler is intended to replace the air cooled engine.

[F5 Dave]

aaand that's what I'm talkin about.

[Brian d marge]

It looks like a pod and a half per second.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjIyWDYyMA==/z/QZkAAOSwnDZULC2T/$_35.JPG

Stephen AKA Briandemarge has done clever like calculations for aircooled bikes before.
I will quote him in order to ask him to post them.
9mm between fins and a short path from heat source to coolant

When I get home I'll find the doc and post it

Hope it's of some help

If I stop off at pub .......but I try to remember

Sent from my SC-01G using Tapatalk

[FastFred]

A 24mm restrictor has 44% more area and so by the same math will flow 130HP+ At the very minimum with a nice restrictor I would say 40hp is possible. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more at all.

HOWEVER - Just because cooling limit comes before intake air limit, it does not mean that the rule has no effect the class. Careful consideration of restrictor design, carb selection, tuning and engineering outside of the normal scope of two stroke building is required to make it all 'click'.

From what I read. A 24mm carb is not going to hold back a 110 water cooler or 124 air cooled Bucket. But the engineering required will hold back a few who lack the resources or inclination to do the development required although that is not much considering TZ has posted details of how its done.

So in a real sense the 24mm carb restriction does not matter much one way or another.

[mr bucketracer]

So you'd have a better handling bike with more power and a better spread and the same weight which would hurt a peaky bike proportionally more. Yeah it would certainly help for sure.

It's not fair that kids are light, but at over 80kg I'm more than a bit heavy for a 50 so I know the feeling.how do you know that ?i swaped my bike with kobas and i could pull up on my bike so what dose that say ? seen i had not raced a 2 stroke bucket in 15- 20 years

[jasonu]

So in a real sense the 24mm carb restriction does not matter much one way or another.

Then there is no reason to get rid of that rule.:banana:

[F5 Dave]

Well you've posted some nice dyno curves over the years and your frames are an improvement over the NF4 no question (only a short ride on Brents 100 showed me that). You'd go a squat load faster on my bike than the other way around as I struggle to adapt to 4strokes.

[cotswold]

I like all the new capacity changes and have built this one for the GP, I have left the engine stock for now but if needs be I'll get a few tweeks done to it for the coming season

[seymour14]

I like all the new capacity changes and have built this one for the GP, I have left the engine stock for now but if needs be I'll get a few tweeks done to it for the coming season

Can't see a derbi part on it, but I do spot a racing Ferrari badge...protest!;)

[TZ350]

We have a European engine 50cc 2T bike doing 30s, or less, can't remember. On top of that we now have Gary on the John Connor Honda XL100 also in the 30s. You couldn't get 2 much more different bikes and yet it will be only them and Tim, if he turns up, battling at the front of F5.

What happened to all those old 125cc 4T bucket racers, they certainly don't seem to fit in F4 anymore.

Would opening F5 up to them have any merit?

Something like:-

F5
50cc 2T
100cc 4T
125cc 4T two valve air cooled.

[Bert]

What happened to all those old 125cc 4T bucket racers, they certainly don't seem to fit in F4 anymore.

Would opening F5 up to them have any merit?

Something like:-

F5
50cc 2T
100cc 4T
125cc 4T two valve air cooled.

125 4t.
I'd see a few issues forming esp with pit bike motors....
I'm struggling with the concept of making everything bigger especially if we make no effort to improved safety (brakes etc.) runoff zones blablabla.
All we are doing to increasing Hp and speeding up the bikes more and more.
Kart tracks will soon be too small and not match the Hp.

[cotswold]

What happened to all those old 125cc 4T bucket racers, they certainly don't seem to fit in F4 anymore.

Would opening F5 up to them have any merit?

Something like:-

F5
50cc 2T
100cc 4T
125cc 4T two valve air cooled.

oi leave F5 out of the shit fight, it aint broke
:Oi:

[cotswold]

[QUOTE=TZ350;1130949255]What happened to all those old 125cc 4T bucket racers, they certainly don't seem to fit in F4 anymore.

Would opening F4


Something like
125cc 4T two valve air cooled turbo or supercharged left in F4

[TZ350]

125 4t. I'm struggling with the concept of making everything bigger...

Yes agreed, but 125 air cooled 2 valve 4T's have been run for years and now to keep them active, they maybe need a new home (retirement home .... :)), would they be out of place in F5?

[TZ350]

What happened to all those old 125cc 4T bucket racers, they certainly don't seem to fit in F4 anymore.

Would opening F4 Something like 125cc 4T two valve air cooled turbo or supercharged left in F4

Yes just thinking of the old naturally aspirated two valve air cooled 125cc 4t's like the Honda 125.

319816

There must be quite a few around still but they aren't brought to the track anymore.

[cotswold]

Yes just thinking of the old naturally aspirated two valve air cooled 125cc 4t's like the Honda 125. There must be quite a few around still but they aren't brought to the track anymore.

i have no problem seeing the old school 125's in with F5 it would bump the numbers up but would rather they had their own classification, I wont see which way Gary has gone and he's on a 100

[goose8]

i have no problem seeing the old school 125's in with F5 it would bump the numbers up but would rather they had their own classification, I wont see which way Gary has gone and he's on a 100
The cb100 was going good today, are you coming tomorrow?

[goose8]

Yes just thinking of the old naturally aspirated two valve air cooled 125cc 4t's like the Honda 125.

319816

There must be quite a few around still but they aren't brought to the track anymore.

I think the cb125t would be to fast for f5 , as they have done 29.2 at mt Wellington .

[cotswold]

The cb100 was going good today, are you coming tomorrow?

yes bringing just the 50, not that you will see much of it as i'm still doing 33's :(

[Pumba]

There must be quite a few around still but they aren't brought to the track anymore.

I genuinely believe it would make no difference to numbers on the grid for thefollowing reasons:
The guys that have them in the shed have inteerest in sellling them because the believe they have no value
The small number of pepole that woud be interested in using such a bike would want to pay sweet FA for them, refer back to my first point
Even if you manage to extract them from there owners most probally require another $500 plus spent on them before they are track worthy



As nice as it is to think that these bikes are sitting around doing nothing and SHOULD be raced, they are old tech and have been surpassed with more modern tech that is easier to race and easier to maintain. While I acknowledge that some of this is perception rather than reality, what is the first piece of advice that is given to most new guys that post on this forum?

[TZ350]

I think the cb125t would be to fast for f5 , as they have done 29.2 at mt Wellington .


I genuinely believe it would make no difference to numbers on the grid for the following reasons: As nice as it is to think that these bikes are sitting around doing nothing and SHOULD be raced, they are old tech and have been surpassed with more modern tech that is easier to race and easier to maintain.

Its good to get others perception, thanks.

[Bert]

Yes agreed, but 125 air cooled 2 valve 4T's have been run for years and now to keep them active, they maybe need a new home (retirement home .... :)), would they be out of place in F5?


i have no problem seeing the old school 125's in with F5 it would bump the numbers up but would rather they had their own classification, I wont see which way Gary has gone and he's on a 100

I'd rather see a classification of "classic buckets" (and old rules), they could be raced/included in the F4 or F5 depending on numbers.
A few of us still have our oldies sitting in the shed (needing a little restoring) and it would be a hoot to peddle them again.

[Drew]

I'd rather see a classification of "classic buckets" (and old rules), they could be raced/included in the F4 or F5 depending on numbers.
A few of us still have our oldies sitting in the shed (needing a little restoring) and it would be a hoot to peddle them again.

Because of the low entry numbers at the moment, and the constant struggle to fill a days program?

[F5 Dave]

Yes just thinking of the old naturally aspirated two valve air cooled 125cc 4t's like the Honda 125.

319816

There must be quite a few around still but they aren't brought to the track anymore.

Darrin races Pete Sales old one in an RG chassis. You would have seen it at Taumarunui. I have one of the fastest 50s and I'm one of the fastest racers on that track. He's a good mate and my old rival. In free practice I was behind him and throwing everything I had at it. I wanted to pass him. But I just couldn't quite keep up.

So no, I don't think that's a very good idea at all.

[richban]

oi leave F5 out of the shit fight, it aint broke
:Oi:

F5 is so fine how it is. No fucking with the best class please.

125 2 valve engines. Slap a bigger piston and cam in it and 20 odd hp all day with long stroke toque. F4 thank you very much. Stay away from F5.

[TZ350]

So no, I don't think that's a very good idea at all.


F5 is so fine how it is. No fucking with the best class please. Stay away from F5.

Thanks for the input ......

[Bert]

Because of the low entry numbers at the moment, and the constant struggle to fill a days program?

Just being Constructive Drew. Ummm are you willing to provide your in depth experience in answering the question at hand?

To save you flicking back: should 125 2valves be included into F5? (Note, my answer was no)

Sub question: how do we cater for the older F4 bikes sitting in shed that are apparently outdated over a decade ago?
(Note2, I put a suggestion forward).

Carl sums it up nicely.

I genuinely believe it would make no difference to numbers on the grid for thefollowing reasons:
The guys that have them in the shed have inteerest in sellling them because the believe they have no value
The small number of pepole that woud be interested in using such a bike would want to pay sweet FA for them, refer back to my first point
Even if you manage to extract them from there owners most probally require another $500 plus spent on them before they are track worthy



As nice as it is to think that these bikes are sitting around doing nothing and SHOULD be raced, they are old tech and have been surpassed with more modern tech that is easier to race and easier to maintain. While I acknowledge that some of this is perception rather than reality, what is the first piece of advice that is given to most new guys that post on this forum?

Then a view from someone else with insight.


125 2 valve engines. Slap a bigger piston and cam in it and 20 odd hp all day with long stroke toque. F4 thank you very much. Stay away from F5.

[richban]

Sub question: how do we cater for the older F4 bikes sitting in shed that are apparently outdated over a decade ago?
(Note2, I put a suggestion forward).

Not really an issue is it? Where are all these slow old shitters? Plenty of people start out on a slow old shitter then get something a little better if they get the bug. They have there place as a cheap way to go racing init?

[Drew]

Sub question: how do we cater for the older F4 bikes sitting in shed that are apparently outdated over a decade ago?
(Note2, I put a suggestion forward).

Carl sums it up nicely.
Why do old shitters need to be catered for?

Own an old un-competetitive bike? Bad luck I say. Classes get brought up in real racing quite often, by people whinging that their bike doesn't have a class. "Too fucken bad, you bought it".
The rest of the racers aren't responsible for some other muppet's poor life choices. Fuck 'em.

[husaberg]

From what I read. A 24mm carb is not going to hold back a 110 water cooler or 124 air cooled Bucket. But the engineering required will hold back a few who lack the resources or inclination to do the development required although that is not much considering TZ has posted details of how its done.

So in a real sense the 24mm carb restriction does not matter much one way or another.

I just read the Aussie bucket rules it seems they use the carb as a restriction as well, on all 2 strokes the air cooled are allowed 111cc plus 2%(?)and the liquid cooled ones are allowed 85cc plus 2%
Induction will be by carburettors only.

28mm (carburettor maximum on 2 strokes).
RANDOM INSPECTIONS OF:
-- FUEL,
-- ENGINE CAPACITY,
-- 2 STROKE CYLINDERS,
-- 2 STROKE CARBURETTOR SIZE
-- 4 STROKE HEADS (VALVE SIZES) WILL BE CARRIED OUT DURING THE YEAR.
http://ozbucketracing.com/rules.html

[Bert]

Not really an issue is it? Where are all these slow old shitters? Plenty of people start out on a slow old shitter then get something a little better if they get the bug. They have there place as a cheap way to go racing init?

Na no issue - not in my book. But, Just putting a suggestion forward.

[TZ350]

Because of the low entry numbers at the moment, and the constant struggle to fill a days program?

No and No as there are plenty of starters.

319845

Buckets is pretty much run with common sense and goodwill and as there are still some of the classic 125cc Buckets around, it was suggested to do a pole to see if some space could be opened up for them to run in without getting run over. F5 could have been a good idea, but maybe not.

[Drew]

Na no issue - not in my book. But, Just putting a suggestion forward.

This right here, is the issue. Be it real bike racing or buckets, people wanna fuck with stuff that needn't be fucked with. Why is it unacceptable to tell folk. "Not all bikes are equal and yours is shit, but it ain't our probem"?

[TZ350]

Induction will be by carburettors only.

Not as innovative as us then!!! :crazy: glad I am not running in a ham strung limited vision Aussie class.

[Drew]

No and No as there are plenty of starters

Buckets is pretty much run with common sense and goodwill and as there are still some of the classic 125cc Buckets around, it was suggested to do a pole to see if some space could be opened up for them to run in, it could have been a good idea.

I'm being deliberately obtuse and probably don't need to be. But I honestly think accross all of bike racing in New Zealand we are trying to pander to those we needn't.

A lot of bike racers here could do with just stepping up and racing what's in the shed. We're a tiny pacific island where the majority are just out for shits and giggles. Get amongst it (those who are upset their shit is...shit), or shut your hole.

[Drew]

Not as innovative as us then!!! :crazy: glad I am not running in a ham strung limited vision Aussie class.

It does seem overly restrictive for what here, is a class dreamed up by punters who really just wanted to fuck with shit.

[TZ350]

here, it is a class dreamed up by punters who really just wanted to fuck with shit.

Yes, not everyone wants to, but that is what I enjoy about Buckets, f..king with shit...... :D

[Bert]

This right here, is the issue. Be it real bike racing or buckets, people wanna fuck with stuff that needn't be fucked with. Why is it unacceptable to tell folk. "Not all bikes are equal and yours is shit, but it ain't our probem"?

Actually Drew, there is an opportunity for groups that are willing: to cater for older bikes or new to the sport riders. That is how clubs grow and people get involved and stay involved.
Maybe clubs shouldn't bother with post classics or classics...

It don't disagree about not catering for every Tom dick and Harry. But occasionally, those the care should have a chance to discuss opportunities? Isn't that what this thread is about.

[husaberg]

Not as innovative as us then!!! :crazy: glad I am not running in a ham strung limited vision Aussie class.

yes but they include all sorts of other stuff it seems other than engine size or restricted items such as injection or carb size valve size or number and fuel it seems anything goes (other than forced induction)

[Drew]

Actually Drew, there is an opportunity for groups that are willing: to cater for older bikes or new to the sport riders. That is how clubs grow and people get involved and stay involved.
Maybe clubs shouldn't bother with post classics or classics...

It don't disagree about not catering for every Tom dick and Harry. But occasionally, those the care should have a chance to discuss opportunities? Isn't that what this thread is about.
Classics only run at classics or street meetings. Posties is a fluid thing, and very well subscribed.

The title of this thread suggests rule submissions. Redefining requires a different conversation

[Bert]

Classics only run at classics or street meetings. Posties is a fluid thing, and very well subscribed.

The title of this thread suggests rule submissions. Redefining requires a different conversation

:brick::brick::brick::facepalm: yip your right, as normal.

[TZ350]

319853

CB125 Well we probably have an answer of sorts about whether a CB125 can still be competitive in F4 or if the old 125 4T's should be retired to F5.
319852
Garry Cunningham last weekend peddled his F5 CB100 around Mt Wellington in under 31 sec which would make him definitely competitive in F4 and I expect that an intelligently worked and set up, bored out CB125 could still be a very competitive fun ride in F4. And one year Av out rode a lot of the F4 field with her F5 100 4T at Taupo.

[jasonu]

319853

CB125 Well we probably have an answer of sorts about whether a CB125 can still be competitive in F4 or if the old 125 4T's should be retired to F5.
.

F5 is not a dumping ground for old bikes that are no longer competitive in their own class.

[TZ350]

F5 is not a dumping ground for old bikes that are no longer competitive in their own class.

True that ....

[mr bucketracer]

True that ....false (-;...

[husaberg]

It looks like a pod and a half per second.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjIyWDYyMA==/z/QZkAAOSwnDZULC2T/$_35.JPG

Stephen AKA Briandemarge has done clever like calculations for aircooled bikes before.
I will quote him in order to ask him to post them.


That looks like a lot of air, it will be interesting hear what Brian has to say.


9mm between fins and a short path from heat source to coolant

When I get home I'll find the doc and post it

Hope it's of some help

If I stop off at pub .......but I try to remember

Sent from my SC-01G using Tapatalk

I was sent this From Brian d marge
I have only had a quick peek but it looks very interesting

Air cooled tech ignore the extra valves and oiling.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g83k5qveoa533v8/_cylinder%20review%20.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qumzhe8k27wffh6/_fins.pdf?dl=0

[goose8]

I'd love to have a couple of laps on one of the gpr150s At some stage .will see on Sunday how close I can get to Nathaniel in f5
Well I got close to Nathaniel in the second race on the weekend , but his pace down the straight is just abit to much for me. Will do some tinkering before the gp an give it another go, was only .2 off his fastest lap in the second race an 1.5 seconds at end of race So better than I thought I'd do.

[TALLIS]

Well I got close to Nathaniel in the second race on the weekend , but his pace down the straight is just abit to much for me. Will do some tinkering before the gp an give it another go, was only .2 off his fastest lap in the second race an 1.5 seconds at end of race So better than I thought I'd do.

Mate, bloody hell. When comparing Apple's with Apple's your in a league of your own.

[kel]

Well I got close but his pace down the straight is just abit to much for me.
That would be those bolt up go fast bits :msn-wink:

[BelindaS]

Hi. Guy's

Posted this in "Where do you want to see bucket racing go in the next 10 years?"
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/177814-Where-do-you-want-to-see-bucket-racing-go-in-the-next-10-years?p=1130953175&posted=1#post1130953175




Tell us a little about your self and how you got involved in the sport (friends, seen at a car park etc , type of bike you like ( 2 or 4 stroke ) and why , what keeps you in the sport , and what would pee you of if rules changed , do you like bulding your own bike .frame ,engine etc , or just the riding . i may add more to this later , will post my thoughts later . thanks

Hi Mr Bucketracer

New to the "sport" of Bucket racing. And I was excited to get involved in buckets. But I have grave reservation as to weather to get into the sport now or not. As should anyone else who is thinking about getting involved.

I don't like what I have been hearing and have witnessed as well, which I think is very sad, as I considered buckets as a steeping stone to other fields of motorbike racing. (Well I mean road / track racing.)

My background in motor bikes has been more from a farming background. My riding started with a DS80, but mostly Honda XL's and XR's of different sizes. I have also ridden a verity of road bikes as well.

"what keeps you in the sport'
Certainly not the shenanigans that has been going on at the moment. Which has affected my family and friends as well. I am seriously considering as to why to get involved at all!!

"and what would pee you of if rules changed"
Well I'm sorry to inform you, the rules have changed!! Mid season!! With no consultation or discussions with competitors within the bucket community.
To me. How this came about is pure bullying at its worst! Which at the moment it looks as though it is supported by MNZ

You may ask what am I referring to. Well it's this message left on my friends answer phone
by Brian Steffensen My friend dose not know who he is and Brian Steffensen did not leave a contact number to discuses the issue.


("Just letting you know that to reduce any further confusion we have added a new supplementary
regulation to all of our events going forward and that is.
Pit bikes such as but not limited to Forza Thumpster and Pitsta Pro are not eligible.
And the final discussion as to what does and doesn't constitute a pit bike is at the discretion of the steward of the meeting and the machine examiner.")

What alarms me the most, as it should you, is the finale sentence.

So basically, it doesn't matter if your bike complies with the rules. If they don't like you because you are Male,Female,Black or White, Guy or Straight. They can exclude you by simply referring to your bike as a pit bike and you do not have any recourse what so ever.

Cheers
Belinda

[TZ350]

Hi Belinda, actually the rules have not changed midseason, clarified possibly but not changed. Pit bikes have always been excluded by their oversized capacity and the non competition rule, they by definition are not eligible now or have ever been eligible for F4 or F5, but some people like them and a few would like to race them.

I see you are from Auckland, Bucket racing at Mt Wellington has always tried to accommodate pit bikes one way or another in a common sense sort of way. The AMCC Bucket racing organisers have bent over backwards to accommodate pitbikes. Controversially letting them race in F4 and as numbers grew offering to run their own class if they could field six or more, they did the same for scooters.

From what I have seen there recently most pitbike riders have graduated to Bucket legal bikes but a die hard pitster having been allowed to ride is now behaving as if it is their right, well it is not. It looks like a case of give an inch and they demand a mile.

The situation has been discussed at some length by the committee and generally by the riders in the pits, I am one of those.

I understand that recently the pitsters side had been put rather forcefully to Mel a voluntary organiser (Also Brian's partner) at several meetings where she was taking the entries. I guess the pitsters have pushed their point far enough that there was no more room for compromise, common sense and good will so a definitive decision and a clear statement had to be made.

If this is upsetting you and your family you may need to look at what part they have played.

But as it is, pitsters are not an eligible bike so are not going to be allowed to run in F4 or F5.

Because the organisers have spoken about it at riders briefings on a number of occasions. I understand that if you can field six or more the organisers were open to running a class specifically for you and the other riders are happy to give up some of their track time, or at least that was the way it was.

Now how much fairer than that did you want it to be????

[BelindaS]

Hi TZ350

Thank you for your reply.

And I truly appreciate that you are taking the time to explaining this to me.

OK so the Honda RS 125 ( a competition Bike) rolling chassis fitted with Brembos and Ohlins is legal, But the pit bike rolling chassis is illegal.

Or have I miss understood that.

So what I am getting at is if my friend or I installs a FXR150 motor 4t or a Derbi 2t into the chassis. Then would it comply or is it still illegal?

As I thought frames and suspension where free.

Cheers B

[TZ350]

Hi TZ350 Thank you for your reply. And I truly appreciate that you are taking the time to explaining this to me.

OK so the Honda RS 125 ( a competition Bike) rolling chassis fitted with Brembos and Ohlins is legal, But the pit bike rolling chassis is illegal.

Hi, if you care to post a copy of the F4 Bucket rules, you will find them on the MNZ site, chapter 16. I will be happy to go through them with you.

[husaberg]

Hi, if you care to post a copy of the F4 Bucket rules, you will find them on the MNZ site, chapter 16. I will be happy to go through them with you.


10.9.1 Handlebars must not be of greater width than 92cm and must have the ends securely capped or plugged. All handlebars on off road motorcycles must be plugged.
It would have to comply with this.
In street racing super motards were banned from racing with F3 etc, as the racing lines were deemed to be vastly different. (plus big $$$$ F3 f2 and F1 bikes were getting there asses kicked my lightly moded chook chasers:killingme)

Off the AMC page rather than the MNZ regs
http://amcc-dev.org.nz/index.php/menu-bucketracing.html

Bucket racing rules

The rules that govern what types of bikes can be used for bucket racing and how bucket race meetings must be run are set out by MNZ (Motorcycling New Zealand) among the rules that govern all motorcycle racing in New Zealand. These rules can be found on the MNZ website. Below is some general information and some useful links to the rules that relate to bucket racing.

To be eligible for bucket racing a motorcycle must have an engine that is derived from a road-legal motorcycle. Engines from motocross bikes, enduro bikes, road-race bikes and pitbikes are not eligible.

[TZ350]

OK so the Honda RS 125 ( a competition Bike) rolling chassis fitted with Brembos and Ohlins is legal, But the pit bike rolling chassis is illegal.

Or have I missunderstood that.

Cheers B
Yes, I think so, as any motorcycle rolling chassis would be legal if it meets the general road racing machine technical and safety regulations.

Thanks Husa. ""Bucket racing rules .... To be eligible for bucket racing a motorcycle must have an engine that is derived from a road-legal motorcycle. Engines from motocross bikes, enduro bikes, road-race bikes and pitbikes are not eligible.""

Ok B, you asked, the reg's are all about the engine, so what does this tell us.​

[BelindaS]

Thanks Husa.

""Bucket racing rules .... To be eligible for bucket racing a motorcycle must have an engine that is derived from a road-legal motorcycle. Engines from motocross bikes, enduro bikes, road-race bikes and pitbikes are not eligible.""

Ok Belinda, so what does this tell us.​



Hi TZ350
From reading the above rule,the frame is not allowed as well. And by using the generic term "pit bike" they have excluded all Chinese bikes.
I accept that.
Cheers for your help
B

[husaberg]

Hi TZ350
From reading the above rule,the frame is not allowed as well. And by using the generic term "pit bike" they have excluded all Chinese bikes.
I accept that.
Cheers for your help
B

I don't agree with you about the frame, by all intents the frame design is open.

Bucket racing rules .... To be eligible for bucket racing a motorcycle must have an engine that is derived from a road-legal motorcycle. Engines from motocross bikes, enduro bikes, road-race bikes and pitbikes are not eligible.""

[TZ350]

""Bucket racing rules .... Engines from motocross bikes, enduro bikes, road-race bikes and pitbikes are not eligible.""
Hi TZ350 From reading the above rule,the frame is not allowed as well.I accept that. Cheers for your help. B

I was pretty sure it was only the engine they were talking about but I can see what you mean.

Maybe you are right, ..:scratch:... pitbikes are totally out, well there you have it I guess. In your own words, pitbikes are not legal for Buckets, so it looks like there is no class for road racing pit bikes currently.

So if you are keen, maybe you could start a club, draw up some rules, affiliate with MNZ, get some friends qualified up as stewards, find some volunteer helpers, a venue and run your own meetings. If you can get the mini bike and scooter guys on board too that would be great.

F4 & F5 (the Bucket people) have done it so everyone knows it is a bit of work, but it could be quite good for you to have your own officially recognised class and control over how your own rules are worded and how you run your own race meetings.

Just depends on how much you want to race pitbikes I guess.

[Yow Ling]

Belinda, Have you purchased a bike yet, is it a pit bike or are you open to the more mainstream bucket style bike.

Can I ask why the pitbike style is so important to you when there are many other options available and competitive right out of the box in the class.

It does appear that you are relitigating an old chestnut here, if you are a member of a club you could have requested a rulechange and have your club submit it, but that deadline has now passed, so maybe next year.

[jasonu]

Hi. Guy's

Posted this in "Where do you want to see bucket racing go in the next 10 years?"
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/177814-Where-do-you-want-to-see-bucket-racing-go-in-the-next-10-years?p=1130953175&posted=1#post1130953175





Hi Mr Bucketracer

New to the "sport" of Bucket racing. And I was excited to get involved in buckets. But I have grave reservation as to weather to get into the sport now or not. As should anyone else who is thinking about getting involved.

I don't like what I have been hearing and have witnessed as well, which I think is very sad, as I considered buckets as a steeping stone to other fields of motorbike racing. (Well I mean road / track racing.)

My background in motor bikes has been more from a farming background. My riding started with a DS80, but mostly Honda XL's and XR's of different sizes. I have also ridden a verity of road bikes as well.

"what keeps you in the sport'
Certainly not the shenanigans that has been going on at the moment. Which has affected my family and friends as well. I am seriously considering as to why to get involved at all!!

"and what would pee you of if rules changed"
Well I'm sorry to inform you, the rules have changed!! Mid season!! With no consultation or discussions with competitors within the bucket community.
To me. How this came about is pure bullying at its worst! Which at the moment it looks as though it is supported by MNZ

You may ask what am I referring to. Well it's this message left on my friends answer phone
by Brian Steffensen My friend dose not know who he is and Brian Steffensen did not leave a contact number to discuses the issue.


("Just letting you know that to reduce any further confusion we have added a new supplementary
regulation to all of our events going forward and that is.
Pit bikes such as but not limited to Forza Thumpster and Pitsta Pro are not eligible.
And the final discussion as to what does and doesn't constitute a pit bike is at the discretion of the steward of the meeting and the machine examiner.")

What alarms me the most, as it should you, is the finale sentence.

So basically, it doesn't matter if your bike complies with the rules. If they don't like you because you are Male,Female,Black or White, Guy or Straight. They can exclude you by simply referring to your bike as a pit bike and you do not have any recourse what so ever.

Cheers
Belinda

Are you or are you related to that wanker that started imported those fucking forza pit bikes then tried to sell more of them by attempting to get them Bucket legal eventhough they do not fit the Bucket class rules? How about take your fucking forzas and start your own series somewhere else and basically fuck off.

[jasonu]

Hi TZ350

Thank you for your reply.

And I truly appreciate that you are taking the time to explaining this to me.

OK so the Honda RS 125 ( a competition Bike) rolling chassis fitted with Brembos and Ohlins is legal, But the pit bike rolling chassis is illegal.

Or have I miss understood that.

So what I am getting at is if my friend or I installs a FXR150 motor 4t or a Derbi 2t into the chassis. Then would it comply or is it still illegal?

As I thought frames and suspension where free.

Cheers B


Hi TZ350
From reading the above rule,the frame is not allowed as well. And by using the generic term "pit bike" they have excluded all Chinese bikes.
I accept that.
Cheers for your help
B

Are you trolling or are you really that stupid?

[husaberg]

Okay guys what am I missing? I read it as pitbike engines are not allowed.

Bucket racing rules .... To be eligible for bucket racing a motorcycle must have an engine that is derived from a road-legal motorcycle. Engines from motocross bikes, enduro bikes, road-race bikes and pitbikes are not eligible.""

[jasonu]

Okay guys what am I missing? I read it as pitbike engines are not allowed.

Mate you are not missing anything. Fuck those forza importers which quite obviously Belinda is one.

[Bert]

It doesn't have to get nasty.

I won't say I told you so, but....
AMCC let them in (as too welly). One to offer up track time, the other result of low numbers/providing an opportunity).
So the cat is out of the bag.
What both clubs did was actually good, the problem was not enough actually turned up.

Like F3 and motards: pit bikes do create a small issue on track (those around me long enough will remember a few issues...)... I hold some really strong view on pit bikes and buckets - but I'm not going into this.
So they really need their own class and be done with it.

Not really convinced there should be so much concern around the engines (applying the performance/race rules: means race spec pit bike engines can't enter).
As too, bolt on performance parts.
4 speed means it will never be any better than a good Bgrade motor (even with 20Hp).
It's the frame design, that's the kicker.
The class is called "miniature road racing" (buckets being the slang term).
The intent is road racing motorcycles (not motards)..
I'm sure years ago something was written in the opening paragraph about this.

I'd personally go as far to say, the rules resolve the issues, pull the motors out and chuck them into a frame that represents/meets the intent of the class and go for it....

BelindaS, not quite sure why you are attacking mr bucketracers thread and why you are so aggressive towards AMCC: whom have been accomodating in the past (and have done all the hard work getting racing organised). The only way forward really is to be positive and proactive (not aggressive) and work with AMCC or organise your own events (sorting out hireage, insurance and facilities).

[jasonu]

It doesn't have to get nasty.
.

Sure it does.
They were told a while back the forzas do not fit the class rules. If one wants to go Bucket racing one must obtain a bike that fits the rules, not import some Chinese shit boxes then whine that they don't fit the rules. Apparently that has not sunk in. Fuck 'em.

[BelindaS]

Hi TZ350


I was pretty sure it was only the engine they were talking about but I can see what you mean.

And that's part of the problem I suppose. We keep getting different answers from everyone.

Even you thought the chassis would still be able to be used.

So did husaberg


Okay guys what am I missing? I read it as pitbike engines are not allowed.


I don't agree with you about the frame, by all intents the frame design is open.

And I agree with husaberg and yourself. I thought that issue was with the engine.


Hence my original question can we use the chassis and install a legal engine


Hi TZ350

Thank you for your reply.

And I truly appreciate that you are taking the time to explaining this to me.

OK so the Honda RS 125 ( a competition Bike) rolling chassis fitted with Brembos and Ohlins is legal, But the pit bike rolling chassis is illegal.

Or have I miss understood that.

So what I am getting at is if my friend or I installs a FXR150 motor 4t or a Derbi 2t into the chassis. Then would it comply or is it still illegal?

As I thought frames and suspension where free.

Cheers B



Belinda, Have you purchased a bike yet, is it a pit bike or are you open to the more mainstream bucket style bike.

Can I ask why the pitbike style is so important to you when there are many other options available and competitive right out of the box in the class.

It does appear that you are relitigating an old chestnut here, if you are a member of a club you could have requested a rule change and have your club submit it, but that deadline has now passed, so maybe next year.


Hi Yow Ling

No I have not purchased a bike as of yet. I am waiting to see what the new rules would do to potential other bikes that I may consider. The friend that I have been mentioning does have one of the Forza pit bikes. He, like my self prefers a more sitting up position on the bike. (he being 6'5'' It's imposable for him to ride gp style if you know what I mean)

The hope was to comply the bike with a legal engine. Or change the FXR gp style to a more up right position running the smaller wheels possibly. Due to his 6'5'' frame.
But due to the wording that has now been put in place. Anything on 12'' wheels could be construed as a pit bike depending on the steward on the day.


As for rule changes we were never after that. Just simple clarification of the rules

As TZ350 had already explained to me in great detail what a non competition bike was/is. We felt the bike complied.
Is this not a road going bike? Its legal in 50 states of the USA. Available since 2008/9

http://shop.pitsterpro.com/2009lxm155rtwelve.aspx

Hence why we thought the engine complied.

And no we / I don't wont to be seen as relitigating an old chestnut.
But ever time we ask politely for clarification or simply does this comply we are accused of trolling.


It doesn't have to get nasty..

Hi Bert
I apologise. it was never meant to be intentionally nasty. I suppose it's just our frustration of not getting a straight answer from anyone.
I have been honest with everyone and I'm still being called a liar!



Cheers B

[husaberg]

Hi TZ350



And that's part of the problem I suppose. We keep getting different answers from everyone.

Even you thought the chassis would still be able to be used.

So did husaberg


And I agree with husaberg and yourself. I thought that issue was with the engine.


Hence my original question can we use the chassis and install a legal engine





Cheers BBut I also stated about the issues with the motards running with race bikes. The rest of the chassis stuff has to comply with the race rules ie handlebar widths as well as satisfying the safety concerns of the organisers.

It would have to comply with this.
In street racing super motards were banned from racing with F3 etc, as the racing lines were deemed to be vastly different. (plus big $$$$ F3 f2 and F1 bikes were getting there asses kicked my lightly moded chook chasers:killingme)

Off the AMC page rather than the MNZ regs
http://amcc-dev.org.nz/index.php/menu-bucketracing.html

[BelindaS]

But I also stated about the issues with the motards running with race bikes. The rest of the chassis stuff has to comply with the race rules ie handlebar widths as well as satisfying the safety concerns of the organisers.

Hi husaberg the chassis complies with the race rules as does the handlebar width of 92cm.
As to safety concerns, the bike was scrutinised this year at Taumarunui by Malcolm from the Wellington club. He said he wanted to take pictures to show what a well set up bike should look like.

Cheers B

[Yow Ling]

Hi husaberg the chassis complies with the race rules as does the handlebar width of 92cm.
As to safety concerns, the bike was scrutinised this year at Taumarunui by Malcolm from the Wellington club. He said he wanted to take pictures to show what a well set up bike should look like.

Cheers B

Can they be road registered in New Zealand?

[husaberg]

Hi husaberg the chassis complies with the race rules as does the handlebar width of 92cm.
As to safety concerns, the bike was scrutinised this year at Taumarunui by Malcolm from the Wellington club. He said he wanted to take pictures to show what a well set up bike should look like.

Cheers B

I am talking about the racing lines different bikes take rather than the bikes overall tidiness.

[bucketracer]

As to safety concerns, the bike was scrutinised this year at Taumarunui by Malcolm from the Wellington club. He said he wanted to take pictures to show what a well set up bike should look like. Cheers B

Is scrutinized the same as scrutineered?

[bucketracer]

As for rule changes we were never after that. Just simple clarification of the rules. It's just our frustration of not getting a straight answer from anyone. Cheers B

Reading your post below, it looks like you have got your clarification.


... message left on my friends answer phone by Brian Steffensen.

("Just letting you know that to reduce any further confusion we have added a new supplementary regulation to all of our events going forward and that is. Pit bikes such as but not limited to Forza Thumpster and Pitsta Pro are not eligible. And the final discussion as to what does and doesn't constitute a pit bike is at the discretion of the steward of the meeting and the machine examiner.")

Legal as what in the USA? doubt that it is as a commuter bike, and for certain sure that is not a bike that can be registered here as a road legal bike and that is what counts. If I am wrong show me at least one, but preferably several off the floor shop standard bike(s) registered here in NZ for use on the road or at least a photo of several bikes on the show room floor that are clearly able to be legally used on the road.


We felt the bike complied. Is this not a road going bike? Its legal in 50 states of the USA. Available since 2008/9 http://shop.pitsterpro.com/2009lxm155rtwelve.aspx hence why we thought the engine complied.

Being more upfront about your commercial interests in getting pitbikes accepted into Buckets may have been more honest.


I have been honest with everyone and I'm still being called a liar! Cheers B

Being sly and manipulative on the net will get you being called a troll.

[BelindaS]

Can they be road registered in New Zealand?

Hi Yow Ling
Yes it can be registered in New Zealand

[steamroller]

Reading your post below, it looks like you have got your clarification.



Legal as what in the USA? doubt that it is as a commuter bike, and for certain sure that is not a bike that can be registered here as a road legal bike and that is what counts. If I am wrong show me at least one, but preferably several off the floor shop standard bike(s) registered here in NZ for use on the road.



Being more upfront about your commercial interests in getting pitbikes accepted into Buckets may have been more honest.



Being sly and manipulative on the net will get you being called a troll.

I still have my crf50 that i had registered like 10 years ago me and all my mates raced them on the road after the pubs good times.

[BelindaS]

I am talking about the racing lines different bikes take rather than the bikes overall tidiness.

As far as I am aware the initial problem was with riders putting their leg out in the corners. This is not an issues as the rider keeps his size 50 feet on the foot pegs.
As to different racing lines taken their are mutable different lines that can be taken. Regardless of the bike, depending on traffic, braking distance,speed and tyres.

[Yow Ling]

As far as I am aware the initial problem was with riders putting their leg out in the corners. This is not an issues as the rider keeps his size 50 feet on the foot pegs.
As to different racing lines taken their are mutable different lines that can be taken. Regardless of the bike, depending on traffic, braking distance,speed and tyres.

The rules arent made for one person with size 50 shoes. Cant he just race it in superbikes or something like that

[TALLIS]

A pit bike is never going to win A grade, all the ones i have seen at north island series have been tidy and well prepared. Not knowing the full story of what has been happening in auckland, but all seem to be good cunts and do more than there share in the flaging and turn up to more meetings than most posting on here. We need to be careful of cutting our own hands off here..... think about it guys, is a two valve posty motor worth crying about? what about a mx 50 we all seem to look past.

[BelindaS]

Reading your post below, it looks like you have got your clarification.



Legal as what in the USA? doubt that it is as a commuter bike, and for certain sure that is not a bike that can be registered here as a road legal bike and that is what counts. If I am wrong show me at least one, but preferably several off the floor shop standard bike(s) registered here in NZ for use on the road or at least a photo of several bikes on the show room floor that are clearly able to be legally used on the road.



Being more upfront about your commercial interests in getting pitbikes accepted into Buckets may have been more honest.



Being sly and manipulative on the net will get you being called a troll.


The Derbi is road legal in the Europe not sold in NZ
The LXM 155 is road legal commuter bike in 50 States of the USA. It is legal in New Zealand.

http://shop.pitsterpro.com/2009lxm155rtwelve.aspx

I have no affiliation with or have any commercial interest to do with pit bikes.

I have being open and honest and yet still called a troll. Brilliant!

Cheers B

[speedpro]

Chassis, among other things, are open. Hence the RS125 chassis being used. They were never intended to be registered so are a good example of why that aspect of the argument is irrelevant.

[Henk]

The Derbi is road legal in the Europe not sold in NZ
The LXM 155 is road legal commuter bike in 50 States of the USA. It is legal in New Zealand.

http://shop.pitsterpro.com/2009lxm155rtwelve.aspx

I have no affiliation with or have any commercial interest to do with pit bikes.

I have being open and honest and yet still called a troll. Brilliant!

Cheers B

The pitster pro might well be legal. The bike in question is this one.

http://www.nzmotorfactory.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&y=$2,050&nm=FORZA%20155Z

[speedpro]

The problem as I understand it is possibly two fold
1 - There is a suggestion that most of the pit bikes are "competition" bikes. Certainly some of the promotional literature suggests so. Competition engines are prohibited.
2 - The capacity of the bikes to start with, 155cc. That means they do not technically comply with the MNZ rules which I have posted below. Technically they must start out at a maximum capacity of less than 150cc. They can then be bored to 158.09cc. Technically I think if you started with an earlier 140cc engine, and could get over the "competition engine" hurdle, then you would be OK.

As I said earlier the chassis is OK as there is no mention in the rules about what is a legal chassis.


MNZ RULES:
Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled

The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4 2 stroke 55-110cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc

[speedpro]

The pitster pro might well be legal. The bike in question is this one.

http://www.nzmotorfactory.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&y=$2,050&nm=FORZA%20155Z

The first line of the first paragraph . . . . .

[TALLIS]

Wellington guys should have abit of understanding here, how many years has it taken to be accepted at kaitoke? Hell, we still aren't allowed any voting rights as members. We all help out at working bees and have members on the comity. I just don't understand the problem, just cos we're Maori and there Maori ores
(Still waiting for somebody to say there not allowed cos there not real bikes)

[mr bucketracer]

The problem as I understand it is possibly two fold
1 - There is a suggestion that most of the pit bikes are "competition" bikes. Certainly some of the promotional literature suggests so. Competition engines are prohibited.
2 - The capacity of the bikes to start with, 155cc. That means they do not technically comply with the MNZ rules which I have posted below. Technically they must start out at a maximum capacity of less than 150cc. They can then be bored to 158.09cc. Technically I think if you started with an earlier 140cc engine, and could get over the "competition engine" hurdle, then you would be OK.

As I said earlier the chassis is OK as there is no mention in the rules about what is a legal chassis.


MNZ RULES:
Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled

The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4 2 stroke 55-110cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cckind off makes your 250 4- 125 twin a non bucket ? seen it started as a 250? bugger i need to stop new project lol , buckets is now sounding boring

[bucketracer]

The Derbi is road legal in the Europe not sold in NZ The LXM 155 is road legal commuter bike in 50 States of the USA. It is legal in New Zealand. http://shop.pitsterpro.com/2009lxm155rtwelve.aspx

LXM155, pity that is not the bike in question.


The bike in question is this one. http://www.nzmotorfactory.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&y=$2,050&nm=FORZA%20155Z


Hi Yow Ling Yes it can be registered in New Zealand

320200

Belinda is this the bike? you can register this in NZ???? for what? duck shooting? certainly not for road use as it is.

Imported Derbies were registered and used on the road here in NZ. There may even be a photo of Chambers one on the ESE thread.

[mr bucketracer]

320200

Belinda is this the bike? How do you register it for road use?piss easy , we live in new zealand:Police:

[Bert]

can of worms is started to be opened...

So no reduced bore KTM200 Dukes or RG150s or TZR125 or VTR250 cylinder barrels & heads.
What about converted line4s. Or 600cc cut heads. So no cool engineering allowed or out of the box solution.
Grey is the colour you get mixing Black and white.... And there is darker shades of grey than pitbikes...

If it is a safety, track protection, stance or dislike let's make sure that decisions are justfied the right way.

Conflicted views:

Personally - I'd rather them not out there (bikes not the riders), due to intent of the class and a few minor safety concerns... But if the numbers were up and track time available then it's a not brainer (great opportunity for sourcing new riders). Problem is it hasn't grown very quickly as people had suggested...
But if clubs try and accomodate them then it's all cool (but not a right).
And as per standard MNZ briefing notes; if safety concerns can not be resolved then go home (I've always stayed)...
Riders, same crazy nutters as the rest of us. Great to have a beer with.

When the pitbike discussion arose I alway held the belief the simple solution (and within the intent of the class) was a minimum wheel size of 16". Pitbikes could be modified easily (requiring some engineering) to accomodate larger wheels.
Or just slot the engine into a roller. Same view on the use of the YB80s and the mini wheeled NS-50s.

Rider size argument and comfort: sorry this doesn't wash. I'm 6 foot (stuffed hip and back), Scotty bigger again: and I've seen much larger people on FXRs and God, even smaller shit back in the day. It's about setup.

P.s. Where the F##k does this registered rule come from?
It's rubbish.
Never (since circa 1994) have I ever read a rule about being road registered under the MNZ rules...
Some club members used this as a guide to help describe what bikes could be used - it is not a bloody rule...

[mr bucketracer]

can of worms is started to be opened...

So no reduced bore KTM200 Dukes or RG150s or TZR125 or VTR250 cylinder barrels & heads.
What about converted line4s. Or 600cc cut heads. So no cool engineering allowed or out of the box solution. Grey is the colour you get mixing Black and white....

If it is a safety, track protection, stance or dislike let's make sure that decisions are justfied the right way.so so so so true ...sad times :facepalm: , time us bucket racing got together and had this out over some drinks

[ellipsis]

you are relitigating


...well yes , today I was doing precisely that, but something went wrong and I hurt my knee...it was in sight of my old chinese powered bucket too, luckily it was looking the other way...I have no idea how to break the news to her that she may be relegated to F5...is there any F5's down here?...my wee CG will be heartbroken...ahhh, buckets...I only need one more letter to go faster, can I add an M so it can be an MCG?...

[bucketracer]

message left on my friends answer phone by Brian Steffensen My friend dose not know who he is and Brian Steffensen did not leave a contact number to discuses the issue.

("Just letting you know that to reduce any further confusion we have added a new supplementary
regulation to all of our events going forward and that is.
Pit bikes such as but not limited to Forza Thumpster and Pitsta Pro are not eligible.
And the final discussion as to what does and doesn't constitute a pit bike is at the discretion of the steward of the meeting and the machine examiner.")

What alarms me the most, as it should you, is the finale sentence.

So basically, it doesn't matter if your bike complies with the rules. If they don't like you because you are Male,Female,Black or White, Guy or Straight. They can exclude you by simply referring to your bike as a pit bike and you do not have any recourse what so ever.

Cheers Belinda

Well it looks like you have got your unambiguous answer, your at the track behavior has pissed them off so they have told you to fuck off, having watched you get in their face, cant say I am surprised or unhappy.

[BelindaS]

The pitster pro might well be legal. The bike in question is this one.

http://www.nzmotorfactory.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&y=$2,050&nm=FORZA%20155Z

Hi Henk

From the beginning the engine has been the hart of the issue.

So I came on here to asked what defines a competition engine. And seymour14 replied with


It would have been produced by its manufacturer for the sole purpose of racing, to be a competition engine.

I am waiting to find an RS125 commuter bike... Anyone got an aftermarket acetylene lighting kit?;)

I was further asked did I understand the reply so I answered


The Honda RS125 is a competition Bike/engine
the Aprilia RS125 is not a competition Bike/engine. ( even though it looks like one )

Thank You for everyone's input in helping me with this.

Cheers B

TZ350 added to this with


319586

This bike has a competition engine.

319587

This bike does not.

For Buckets you start with something non competition like the FXR150 commuter bike, and work on it as much as you wish. The rule is, "based on a non competition engine" then you can hot it up as much as you like.

But pretty much a near std FXR150 will make a very good F4 race bike.

And I replied with this

Hi. TZ350
Thank You for your reply.

If I have this right. The first pic is of a Honda MX bike that competes in FIM sanctioned, malty manufactures, MX bike race. Competing not only for rider points but also Manufacturer points as well. So therefore a competition Bike/engine.
The second pic is of a Ducati Monster 1. A road bike. Which may have competed at club level events or even a one make series. However this still a Non Competition Bike/engine.

I hope that I have this correct :sweatdrop:sweatdrop:sweatdrop

Cheers B

TZ350 replied with


Yes, exactly right, there are factory specific race bikes and factory road bikes. We are allowed to use anything made by the factory for non competition use, which usually means road use. Some exceptions exist, piston and ignition to name two, are open and can come from anything.

There are specific capacity limits for Bucket racers but that does not stop someone using parts from a bigger capacity road bike engine or any non competition motorcycle engine and modifying them in all sorts of ways so long as the final engine capacity is within the Bucket rules.

The majority of Bucket bikes are basically standard FXR150's and a great deal of good racing is done with them. There are only a crazy few who go all out in the tuning stakes, I am not sure it does them any good and you do not have to go there to have a good time with Buckets, unless you want to of course.

PS, Hp on its own is over rated, it is the complete bike and rider package that makes a winning formula.

So my understanding as to this rule, was as long as the engine was from a road going bike. the engine is legal.

The engine in the LXM 155r 12
http://shop.pitsterpro.com/2009lxm155rtwelve.aspx

Is identical to the Forza FXR 155
http://www.nzmotorfactory.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&y=$2,050&nm=FORZA%20155Z

Both are manufactured and suplied by Zong Sheng (ZS) from China.

So to make this clear the Forza is a re bagged Pitsta Pro for the New Zealand market with Identical engine.

This is no different to
aprila rs 50 same as Derbi gpr 50
aprilia sx 50 same as Derbi DRD X-Treme 50 SM

NZ motor factory sell both the Pitsta Pro and Forza. Again I will state I have no affiliation with NZ motor factory.


The problem as I understand it is possibly two fold
1 - There is a suggestion that most of the pit bikes are "competition" bikes. Certainly some of the promotional literature suggests so. Competition engines are prohibited.
2 - The capacity of the bikes to start with, 155cc. That means they do not technically comply with the MNZ rules which I have posted below. Technically they must start out at a maximum capacity of less than 150cc. They can then be bored to 158.09cc. Technically I think if you started with an earlier 140cc engine, and could get over the "competition engine" hurdle, then you would be OK.

As I said earlier the chassis is OK as there is no mention in the rules about what is a legal chassis.


MNZ RULES:
Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled

The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4 2 stroke 55-110cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc

Hi Speedpro

As to your first point the engine is available from a road legal bike. I could also add, just because it has a sticker or advertising blurb saying its a competition model does this make it so.
And to your second point about cc size, we gave information to different people about a crank that was used to bring the bike under the 150cc F4 rule.
This one
http://shop.pitsterpro.com/53mmgpxyx150crank.aspx

This crank was installed a ran for some time, then broke. At that point the standard crank of 55mm was put back in. Which still complied with the 158.06 over bore rule.

As some are a wear the engine is based of a Honda CT 110. the engine comes in many different sizes from 125cc up to 160cc by changing bore or stroke.
Their are three cranks that fit this bike 53mm =149.85cc 55mm = 155.51cc and 57mm = 161.16cc the bore is 60mm.



LXM155, pity that is not the bike in question.


320200

Belinda is this the bike? you can register this in NZ???? for what? duck shooting? certainly not for road use as it is.

Imported Derbies were registered and used on the road here in NZ. There may even be a photo of Chambers one on the ESE thread.

Hi bucketracer
They are different bikes but the same engine. As I have explained

Cheers B

[jasonu]

The first line of the first paragraph . . . . .

Well that is that!!!

[Yow Ling]

Read it how you like Belinda, just because you see an angle to have your way doesnt mean you will get it, there is a whole other catergory that should on the face of it be allowed but isnt and thats scooters, just think of your pitsters as deformed scooters.

[FastFred]

Hi Belinda, actually the rules have not changed midseason, clarified possibly but not changed. Pit bikes have always been excluded by their oversized capacity and the non competition rule, they by definition are not eligible now or have ever been eligible for F4 or F5, but some people like them and a few would like to race them.

I see you are from Auckland, Bucket racing at Mt Wellington has always tried to accommodate pit bikes one way or another in a common sense sort of way. The AMCC Bucket racing organisers have bent over backwards to accommodate pitbikes. Controversially letting them race in F4 and as numbers grew offering to run their own class if they could field six or more, they did the same for scooters.

From what I have seen there recently most pitbike riders have graduated to Bucket legal bikes but a die hard pitster having been allowed to ride is now behaving as if it is their right, well it is not. It looks like a case of give an inch and they demand a mile.

The situation has been discussed at some length by the committee and generally by the riders in the pits, I am one of those.

I understand that recently the pitsters side had been put rather forcefully to Mel a voluntary organiser (Also Brian's partner) at several meetings where she was taking the entries. I guess the pitsters have pushed their point far enough that there was no more room for compromise, common sense and good will so a definitive decision and a clear statement had to be made.

If this is upsetting you and your family you may need to look at what part they have played.

But as it is, pitsters are not an eligible bike so are not going to be allowed to run in F4 or F5.

Because the organisers have spoken about it at riders briefings on a number of occasions. I understand that if you can field six or more the organisers were open to running a class specifically for you and the other riders are happy to give up some of their track time, or at least that was the way it was.

Now how much fairer than that did you want it to be????

Sort of sums it up. Mini Motards (or pitsters as the little ones are called) are not eligible or wanted for F4 but could be run as a separate class if they can get 6 or more bikes to a meeting.

As TZ says, Now how much fairer than that did you want it to be????

[FastFred]

I have no affiliation with or have any commercial interest to do with pit bikes. I have being open and honest and yet still called a troll. Brilliant! Cheers B

At the last Mt Welly meeting when you and your mate were pushing the pitbike case you were advised to take it to MNZ.

I understand the MNZ Road Race Commissioner has got involved and ruled that pitbikes are ineligible for F4.

Now nobody anywhere can run their pitbikes in a MNZ sanctioned F4 race.

Thats it, its finished. I expect you will need to bring something else to Mt Wellington now.

And Pitbikes could do what TZ suggested, start their own club and run their own races.

[TALLIS]

Is this supermotard in my garage bucket legal? As the engine clearly is, or is this an illegal engine? I don't know anymore...:rolleyes:

[mr bucketracer]

Is this supermotard in my garage bucket legal? As the engine clearly is, or is this an illegal engine? I don't know anymore...:rolleyes:well the derby engine is used as a mx engine as well like the posty bike engine in a pit bike with a new top end, gas gas the same ? going to be a fun gp lol

[cotswold]

Is this supermotard in my garage bucket legal? As the engine clearly is, or is this an illegal engine? I don't know anymore...:rolleyes:

narrow bars, 17" wheels, keep your feet on the pegs, stick a race seat on it, who would know??

here is a cr85

[Bert]

At the last Mt Welly meeting when you and your mate were pushing the pitbike case you were advised to take it to MNZ.

I understand the MNZ Road Race Commissioner has got involved and ruled that pitbikes are ineligible for F4.

Now nobody anywhere can run their pitbikes in a MNZ sanctioned F4 race.

Thats it, its finished. I expect you will need to bring something else to Mt Wellington now.

And Pitbikes could do what TZ suggested, start their own club and run their own races.

Now - that's the missing link....

MNZ has made a ruling.
Meetings are run under MNZ thus can't be done anymore.
That explains everything.

AMCC did the correct thing and contacted interested parties.

[TALLIS]

Ok, this bike of mine is a gas gas sm50, it has a derbi am6 engine. It is a supermotard with 17 wheels and trick pipe, it also comes in mx form. Is this classed as a mx bike? Under the same ruling of the posty engines in all there forms, dose this now excluded am6 engines?

[Bert]

Ok, this bike of mine is a gas gas sm50, it has a derbi am6 engine. It is a supermotard with 17 wheels and trick pipe, it also comes in mx form. Is this classed as a mx bike? Under the same ruling of the posty engines in all there forms, dose this now excluded am6 engines?

Black white and grey....
I'd say no currently (within the championship class definition and the decision made by MNZ). As a bike.
Engine well, it meets all the definitions, AM6 engines have been used widely by many manufactures.
Same as my TZR125 engine... But it has always been grey.
Anyway aren't you using a RM80 anyway?? ;)

How do you guys take the current written rules?

[Yow Ling]

Ok, this bike of mine is a gas gas sm50, it has a derbi am6 engine. It is a supermotard with 17 wheels and trick pipe, it also comes in mx form. Is this classed as a mx bike? Under the same ruling of the posty engines in all there forms, dose this now excluded am6 engines?

Yea but they ok if from Aprilia RS50, Yamaha TZR50, just so long as they not from Gasgas SM50's

[TALLIS]

Yea but they ok if from Aprilia RS50, Yamaha TZR50, just so long as they not from Gasgas SM50's
Sweet, if that's the case, I've got a new rm85 crate engine which has never been in a frame. Legal az

[Yow Ling]

Sweet, if that's the case, I've got a new rm85 crate engine which has never been in a frame. Legal az
That must be the super rare FXR85

[Bert]

Yea but they ok if from Aprilia RS50, Yamaha TZR50, just so long as they not from Gasgas SM50's

Can't seem to find any specs that support the fact the a GasGas SM50 is a race derived motorcycle other than the use of supermotard as a name.:msn-wink:

No doubt Husa will be along shortly with some further details...

[TALLIS]

As a bike.
Engine well, it meets all the definitions, AM6 engines have been used widely by many manufactures.



This may very well be tested this weekend, if the bike was to be excluded, May very well force some interesting outcomes.

[TALLIS]

That must be the super rare FXR85

Your onto it :cool:

[Bert]

This may very well be tested this weekend, if the bike was to be excluded, May very well force some interesting outcomes.

Esp if it is found to have a big bore kit...:psst:

[bucketracer]

This may very well be tested this weekend, if the bike was to be excluded, May very well force some interesting outcomes.

:banana: that is the spirit ..... reward the organizers with a bit of a difficult challenge, no sense in making it easy for them.

[F5 Dave]

This may very well be tested this weekend, if the bike was to be excluded, May very well force some interesting outcomes.
But didn't you exchange the original engine with anRS50 engine? :msn-wink:

[TALLIS]

:banana: that is the spirit ..... reward the organizers with a bit of a difficult challenge, no sense in making it easy for them.

I have the up most respect for the organisers, they do a fantastic job and a good bunch of people. Mostly I was after feed back from the users/racers here on there views. It seems to have hit a nerve as most are so very quiet.
Now there is also a chocy fish up for grabs on the other little engine that maybe affected by this...

[TALLIS]

But didn't you exchange the original engine with anRS50 engine? :msn-wink:

Ssshhhhhhhhhhhh

[wildman]

Hi Henk

From the beginning the engine has been the hart of the issue.

So I came on here to asked what defines a competition engine. And seymour14 replied with



I was further asked did I understand the reply so I answered



TZ350 added to this with



And I replied with this


TZ350 replied with



So my understanding as to this rule, was as long as the engine was from a road going bike. the engine is legal.

The engine in the LXM 155r 12
http://shop.pitsterpro.com/2009lxm155rtwelve.aspx

Is identical to the Forza FXR 155
http://www.nzmotorfactory.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&y=$2,050&nm=FORZA%20155Z

Both are manufactured and suplied by Zong Sheng (ZS) from China.

So to make this clear the Forza is a re bagged Pitsta Pro for the New Zealand market with Identical engine.

This is no different to
aprila rs 50 same as Derbi gpr 50
aprilia sx 50 same as Derbi DRD X-Treme 50 SM

NZ motor factory sell both the Pitsta Pro and Forza. Again I will state I have no affiliation with NZ motor factory.



Hi Speedpro

As to your first point the engine is available from a road legal bike. I could also add, just because it has a sticker or advertising blurb saying its a competition model does this make it so.
And to your second point about cc size, we gave information to different people about a crank that was used to bring the bike under the 150cc F4 rule.
This one
http://shop.pitsterpro.com/53mmgpxyx150crank.aspx

This crank was installed a ran for some time, then broke. At that point the standard crank of 55mm was put back in. Which still complied with the 158.06 over bore rule.

As some are a wear the engine is based of a Honda CT 110. the engine comes in many different sizes from 125cc up to 160cc by changing bore or stroke.
Their are three cranks that fit this bike 53mm =149.85cc 55mm = 155.51cc and 57mm = 161.16cc the bore is 60mm.




Hi bucketracer
They are different bikes but the same engine. As I have explained

Cheers B

Hi Belinda i can solve all your problems real easy, take the engine out of your pit bike, cut the frame around a little , add some more steel, fit a go-kart wheel somewhere, add a Lonchin150 and presto you have a Bucket Sidecar. And much more fun than running with those solo poofters:banana: Wait a minute i just remembered who mostly race the sidecars :doh::doh: As you were.

[speedpro]

. . . .
2 - The capacity of the bikes to start with, 155cc. That means they do not technically comply with the MNZ rules which I have posted below. Technically they must start out at a maximum capacity of less than 150cc. They can then be bored to 158.09cc. Technically I think if you started with an earlier 140cc engine, and could get over the "competition engine" hurdle, then you would be OK.

Quoting myself?

Bert made a comment about what I said a few posts back. He pointed out that if what I said above is correct then things like my cut in half FZR are illegal as the engine started out at a capacity greater than 150cc. Nigel's sleeved down RGV100 is also illegal as originally it was a 125cc watercooled 2T. In my mind there has never been any thoughts from anyone along those lines, certainly none directed to me at least. In actual fact the rules do not stipulate that engines must originally be 150cc(4T) or less. The "150cc" in the MNZ rules seems more a label and the 158.09cc is the actual capacity limit.
That being the case it seems that any non-competition engine that is of a lesser capacity than 158.09cc 4T should be allowed to compete. My thoughts are that this rule is needlessly complex and there should simply be a maximum capacity stated for various types of engines in the various classes.

How the capacity is arrived at is immaterial and that has been the bucket ethos for as long as I can remember which is way before MNZ was involved.

[Bert]

Quoting myself?

Bert made a comment about what I said a few posts back. He pointed out that if what I said above is correct then things like my cut in half FZR are illegal as the engine started out at a capacity greater than 150cc. Nigel's sleeved down RGV100 is also illegal as originally it was a 125cc watercooled 2T. In my mind there has never been any thoughts from anyone along those lines, certainly none directed to me at least. In actual fact the rules do not stipulate that engines must originally be 150cc(4T) or less. The "150cc" in the MNZ rules seems more a label and the 158.09cc is the actual capacity limit.
That being the case it seems that any non-competition engine that is of a lesser capacity than 158.09cc 4T should be allowed to compete. My thoughts are that this rule is needlessly complex and there should simply be a maximum capacity stated for various types of engines in the various classes.

How the capacity is arrived at is immaterial and that has been the bucket ethos for as long as I can remember which is way before MNZ was involved.

I can't give you any more rep (good rep).

You have hit the nail on the head regarding bucket ethos and how many read the rules around maximum rebore limit (being the max capacity). But of course it can be interpreted both ways (the ambergity in the intent of the rule is problematic)..
If the ambergity has been applied as a sledgehammer then in one way; then it needs to be applied across the board (note I'm not saying it has nor will be: but it does provide an interesting conversation starter for Friday beers)...

[chrisc]

but it does provide an interesting conversation starter for Friday beers)...

I know most all of you on here and have loads of respect for each one of you but please, please, if you absolutely MUST bring these conversations up, please don't ruin one of the best racing weekends of the entire year with a cat fight. Remember we're all just here for some fun. Whilst rules are important, they're not so important as to destroy the amazing class that is buckets.

I'm super looking forward to this weekend :Punk:

[F5 Dave]

I think the big challenge for us all to consider is how to keep the beer cold for Saturday night.

[Grumph]

Quoting myself?

Bert made a comment about what I said a few posts back. He pointed out that if what I said above is correct then things like my cut in half FZR are illegal as the engine started out at a capacity greater than 150cc. Nigel's sleeved down RGV100 is also illegal as originally it was a 125cc watercooled 2T. In my mind there has never been any thoughts from anyone along those lines, certainly none directed to me at least. In actual fact the rules do not stipulate that engines must originally be 150cc(4T) or less. The "150cc" in the MNZ rules seems more a label and the 158.09cc is the actual capacity limit.
That being the case it seems that any non-competition engine that is of a lesser capacity than 158.09cc 4T should be allowed to compete. My thoughts are that this rule is needlessly complex and there should simply be a maximum capacity stated for various types of engines in the various classes.

How the capacity is arrived at is immaterial and that has been the bucket ethos for as long as I can remember which is way before MNZ was involved.


I think the big challenge for us all to consider is how to keep the beer cold for Saturday night.

Speedpro is correct in that the rules do not stipulate the engines used have to be less than 150cc originally - neither do they say they can't start out larger than 150cc - only that they must come from a non competition motorcycle. I tend to agree that that the "overbore" wording is ambiguous and things would be clearer with a straightforward maximum capacity.

Dave - just keep the beer away from the hot air.......

[seymour14]

I know most all of you on here and have loads of respect for each one of you but please, please, if you absolutely MUST bring these conversations up, please don't ruin one of the best racing weekends of the entire year with a cat fight. Remember we're all just here for some fun. Whilst rules are important, they're not so important as to destroy the amazing class that is buckets.

I'm super looking forward to this weekend :Punk:

But I was going to protest anyone and everyone if they failed to do port on the corner...:drinkup:;)

[Henk]

:banana: that is the spirit ..... reward the organizers with a bit of a difficult challenge, no sense in making it easy for them.

Dead right. Anybody up for running the NI series? I've had so much of a guts full of all the whinging I'm starting to seriously consider walking away from the whole deal.

[FastFred]

if you absolutely MUST bring these conversations up, please don't ruin one of the best racing weekends of the entire year with a cat fight.

I wouldn't worry, things sometimes need talking about and when you have had your say, threads like this make it easy to leave it all behind when the serious weekend racing fun begins. roll on Fridaynight ..... :drinkup:

[FastFred]

there should simply be a maximum capacity stated for various types of engines in the various classes.

+ 1 ................. maybe a good conversation for later in the year.

[kel]

Whilst rules are important, they're not so important
That's exactly what I tell my kids and the authorities.

[mr bucketracer]

Dead right. Anybody up for running the NI series? I've had so much of a guts full of all the whinging I'm starting to seriously consider walking away from the whole deal.and we all turn up to the meeting and forgot all about this everytime lol:innocent:

[TZ350]

... there should simply be a maximum capacity stated for various types of engines in the various classes. ...

I think so too, it would tidy up a lot of unnecessary ambiguity.

[BelindaS]

Hay. Guys

Re the new supplementary regulations

A little bit of history.


Just letting you know that to reduce any further confusion we have added a new supplementary
regulation to all of our events going forward and that is pit bikes such as but not limited to Forza Thumpster and Pitsta Pro are not eligible. And the final discussion as to what does and doesn't constitute a pit bike is at the discretion of the steward of the meeting and the machine examiner.

Brian Steffensen

My friend was excluded form the Mt Wellington event. (After he had spent 40+ minutes cleaning the track with his weed blower. The timing was. Excelliant )
And the reason he was exclude from the Mt Wellington event. Given by both the Steward and Clark of the Course, was on the grounds that the engine did not start of within the F4 4t class of 55-150cc. And on those grounds it was a MNZ health and safety reason that he was being excluded.
My friend excepted the ruling.

But he also pointed out to both the Steward and Clark of the Course that the two Darbi's racing that day in the F4 2T class 55-100cc. Also did start out within the F4 2T class as well, being 49.9cc.
Therefore under the same ruling they exclude him. Then the two Darbi's should be excluded as well. being a "MNZ health and safety" reason.
They both choose to ignore that. He then asked. How can you ignore your own ruling which includes the Derbi, on the grounds it was a "MNZ health and safety reason" as well.
The stewards reply was 'WE ARE MNZ"


He was directed by the Steward and Clark of the Course to go to MNZ.
So he went to MNZ to get the engine clarified.
The two questions that need to be clarified. As directed by the Steward and Clark of the Course was
1. Is it a competition engine.
2. Does the engine comply with the F4 4T class of 55-150cc with the 158.06 over bore rule

And the decision made by the Road Race Commissioner (Obviously without throwing the toys out of the MNZ health and safety cot)

Now all pit bikes, The frames and the suspension and their engines are Banned.

And the final discussion as to what does and doesn't constitute a pit bike is at the discretion of the steward of the meeting and the machine examiner.

And of course, none of this is following F.I.M regulation. ie Following the protest rule or process.



OK OK OK So now moving forward. And forgetting all the above. With the spirit of bucket racing in mind.

My friend and I are looking to see what we can use and or build for use in the (F4 class) Miniature road racing! (Buckets)
Obviously there are two main engines to choose from at the moment. The FXR 150 or the Derbi 50.
Well maybe not the Derbi 50 engine i.e the AM6 engine.

Based on the following grounds and precedents that have now been set with the experience with the Pit Bike.
The Derbi 50 doesn't comply ether. Or does it?

1. It is out side the F4 2T class range. (The reason given for my friends exclusion from the Mt Wellington race.) MNZ "health and safety" reason

2. The AM6 engine is also available in a Pit Bike!
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Hot-Sell-Engine-am6-49cc-Mini_60056833979.html?spm=a2700.7724857.29.161.VDs ajl
And due to the new ruling it could be construed that it is a Pit Bike engine. well it is, as its in one.

3. All the literature I have read on line for the 80cc barrels or big bore kits, say they are racing parts or derived from racing engines.

So as far as I can tell the AM6 engine is now or was always illegal with a big bore kit.

Is this right or wrong. Moving forward, he doesn't want to turn up with a illegal bike.


Speedpro is correct in that the rules do not stipulate the engines used have to be less than 150cc originally - neither do they say they can't start out larger than 150cc - only that they must come from a non competition motorcycle. I tend to agree that that the "overbore" wording is ambiguous and things would be clearer with a straightforward maximum capacity.

It's now a health and safety issue brought up by MNZ officials.


Hi Belinda i can solve all your problems real easy, take the engine out of your pit bike, cut the frame around a little , add some more steel, fit a go-kart wheel somewhere, add a Lonchin150 and presto you have a Bucket Sidecar. And much more fun than running with those solo poofters:banana: Wait a minute i just remembered who mostly race the sidecars :doh::doh: As you were.

Lonchin 150 have now Been banned.


I can't give you any more rep (good rep).

You have hit the nail on the head regarding bucket ethos and how many read the rules around maximum rebore limit (being the max capacity). But of course it can be interpreted both ways (the ambergity in the intent of the rule is problematic)..
If the ambergity has been applied as a sledgehammer then in one way; then it needs to be applied across the board (note I'm not saying it has nor will be: but it does provide an interesting conversation starter for Friday beers)...

I think this is the only place that this can be discussed at the moment and it is appropriate that people get to voice their opinion in an open forum.


Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
... there should simply be a maximum capacity stated for various types of engines in the various classes. ...
I think so too, it would tidy up a lot of unnecessary ambiguity.

And I agree totally

[seymour14]

I would be coming at all this from the opposite angle, and that is that the frame is not allowing a style of riding that fits within the rest of the class. That appears to be more where this has come from in a Health and Safety perspective.

As for the engines, this really does need to be discussed openly and fairly after the GP, there are "grey" areas and maybe even a few unintentional rule breakers now. Or possibly none at all.

Some interesting discussions may be had with a few beverages in hand this Friday night.

I'll bring the knuckle dusters...:laugh:

[kel]

I would be coming at all this from the opposite angle, and that is that the frame is not allowing a style of riding that fits within the rest of the class.:
Fully agree, this is the at the heart of the pit bike exclusion.


Some interesting discussions may be had with a few beverages in hand this Friday night.
I'll bring the knuckle dusters...:laugh:

I guess I should be fronting for this, but won't be. The submitted rule changes will be out for discussion soon enough, my door (and inbox) is always open for sensible discussion.

[Grumph]

An open reply to Belinda..

You're pushing a barrow uphill. You appear to be trying to graft pitbikes onto buckets for some unknown purpose.

They are different animals. Ridden in different styles. The styles are not compatible. Motards do not run with roadrace bikes for vey good reasons.

You appear to have been offered your own races. I consider that this was as far as a bucket club could have been expected to go.

If this arrangement was not satisfactory to you, you should have investigated running your own meetings. There are precedents where new types and classes have done just that.

You will not be forgiven easily for causing the amount of discord which has resulted from your efforts to muddy the rules.

I'm extremely thankful we don't see anyone stupid enough to try and run pitbikes with buckets on the big tracks down here.

[BelindaS]

An open reply to Belinda..

You're pushing a barrow uphill. You appear to be trying to graft pitbikes onto buckets for some unknown purpose.

They are different animals. Ridden in different styles. The styles are not compatible. Motards do not run with roadrace bikes for vey good reasons.

You appear to have been offered your own races. I consider that this was as far as a bucket club could have been expected to go.

If this arrangement was not satisfactory to you, you should have investigated running your own meetings. There are precedents where new types and classes have done just that.

You will not be forgiven easily for causing the amount of discord which has resulted from your efforts to muddy the rules.

I'm extremely thankful we don't see anyone stupid enough to try and run pitbikes with buckets on the big tracks down here.

Hi Grump
Thank you for your reply.

As I said we are moving forward. Planing on using a FXR chassis and wheels. So that there would be no confusion as to it being a "pit bike". Was looking at what engines we could possibly use and at they moment, the most used ones were stated. The FXR 150 or Derbi 50 with a big bore kit. But looking into it the Derbi 50. It has issues as stated in my previous post. I'm posting my concerns as I feel they are justified and hope for a honest debate about those concerns. As we don't want any more issues moving forward.

[TZ350]

... there should simply be a maximum capacity stated for various types of engines in the various classes. ... I think so too, it would tidy up a lot of unnecessary ambiguity.

And I agree totally

It is not just about the engine capacity.

It may be too late for your favorite style of pit bike now as you seem to have made them unwelcome at Mt Wellington and any other race meeting where the AMCC Bucket comity is involved in the organisation.

A legal engine slotted into a FXR chassis, now that is probably worth looking at. It is probably time to stop talking and start working.

[jasonu]

Hay. Guys

Re the new supplementary regulations

A little bit of history.



My friend was excluded form the Mt Wellington event. (After he had spent 40+ minutes cleaning the track with his weed blower. The timing was. Excelliant )
And the reason he was exclude from the Mt Wellington event. Given by both the Steward and Clark of the Course, was on the grounds that the engine did not start of within the F4 4t class of 55-150cc. And on those grounds it was a MNZ health and safety reason that he was being excluded.
My friend excepted the ruling.

But he also pointed out to both the Steward and Clark of the Course that the two Darbi's racing that day in the F4 2T class 55-100cc. Also did start out within the F4 2T class as well, being 49.9cc.
Therefore under the same ruling they exclude him. Then the two Darbi's should be excluded as well. being a "MNZ health and safety" reason.
They both choose to ignore that. He then asked. How can you ignore your own ruling which includes the Derbi, on the grounds it was a "MNZ health and safety reason" as well.
The stewards reply was 'WE ARE MNZ"


He was directed by the Steward and Clark of the Course to go to MNZ.
So he went to MNZ to get the engine clarified.
The two questions that need to be clarified. As directed by the Steward and Clark of the Course was
1. Is it a competition engine.
2. Does the engine comply with the F4 4T class of 55-150cc with the 158.06 over bore rule

And the decision made by the Road Race Commissioner (Obviously without throwing the toys out of the MNZ health and safety cot)

Now all pit bikes, The frames and the suspension and their engines are Banned.


And of course, none of this is following F.I.M regulation. ie Following the protest rule or process.



OK OK OK So now moving forward. And forgetting all the above. With the spirit of bucket racing in mind.

My friend and I are looking to see what we can use and or build for use in the (F4 class) Miniature road racing! (Buckets)
Obviously there are two main engines to choose from at the moment. The FXR 150 or the Derbi 50.
Well maybe not the Derbi 50 engine i.e the AM6 engine.

Based on the following grounds and precedents that have now been set with the experience with the Pit Bike.
The Derbi 50 doesn't comply ether. Or does it?

1. It is out side the F4 2T class range. (The reason given for my friends exclusion from the Mt Wellington race.) MNZ "health and safety" reason

2. The AM6 engine is also available in a Pit Bike!
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Hot-Sell-Engine-am6-49cc-Mini_60056833979.html?spm=a2700.7724857.29.161.VDs ajl
And due to the new ruling it could be construed that it is a Pit Bike engine. well it is, as its in one.

3. All the literature I have read on line for the 80cc barrels or big bore kits, say they are racing parts or derived from racing engines.

So as far as I can tell the AM6 engine is now or was always illegal with a big bore kit.

Is this right or wrong. Moving forward, he doesn't want to turn up with a illegal bike.



It's now a health and safety issue brought up by MNZ officials.



Lonchin 150 have now Been banned.



I think this is the only place that this can be discussed at the moment and it is appropriate that people get to voice their opinion in an open forum.



And I agree totally

Maybe you should try karting as you sound like a big enough cunt and you would fit right in.

[mr bucketracer]

Maybe you should try karting as you sound like a big enough cunt and you would fit right in.shut up...this dose not help

[F5 Dave]

Dead right. Anybody up for running the NI series? I've had so much of a guts full of all the whinging I'm starting to seriously consider walking away from the whole deal.
That indeed would be a great loss Henk. The rest of us appreciate the hard work the organisers put in and the greif the whingers inflict.

[F5 Dave]

. . .

Dave - just keep the beer away from the hot air.......
Easier said when we arrive sat morning or Fri night and want a cold bevie at the campsite (track)

We actually had some rain here today. I'd forgotten about that stuff. Evaporated by now though.

[Drew]

There is no rule what so ever that says you must ride any line, with all limbs on it's appropriate peg/bar.

The health and safety line was obviously a bollucks answer to end a conversation they didn't want to have.

If anyone asked leaf blower man to do that before he was excluded, I'm impressed they didn't end up getting the thing wrapped upside they head.

[jasonu]

There is no rule what so ever that says you must ride any line, with all limbs on it's appropriate peg/bar.

The health and safety line was obviously a bollucks answer to end a conversation they didn't want to have.

If anyone asked leaf blower man to do that before he was excluded, I'm impressed they didn't end up getting the thing wrapped upside they head.

Ever tried riding a bucket with pit bikes on the track. They take totally different corner lines and the chance of either tee boning one or being tee boned by one are really great. Same as when motards were allowed to ride within F3 (I think) which is why they were kicked into their own class. It would be totally irresponsible of the organizers to not act on a potentially dangerous situation.
Really though, there is nothing worse than some dick trying to fuck with the rules to suit their own agenda. Either get yourself on a rules compliant machine, and there are plenty to choose from or build your own which also isn't terribly difficult, or fuck off.

[husaberg]

There is no rule what so ever that says you must ride any line, with all limbs on it's appropriate peg/bar.

The health and safety line was obviously a bollucks answer to end a conversation they didn't want to have.

If anyone asked leaf blower man to do that before he was excluded, I'm impressed they didn't end up getting the thing wrapped upside they head.

Drew I posted the supplementary rules that the MNZ actually insist on for street racing.
Motards and superlights are not to be run together.


PORT NELSON STREET RACES : SATURDAY 2nd January 2016 MNZ Permit # 15788
Supplementary Regulations: Motards are only eligible to enter the Motard Class. No cross entering will be allowed. This is in the interest of safety.

Paeroa Battle of the Streets Motorcycle Street Race Sunday FEBRUARY 21st 2016 Permit No 15873
9. Supermoto machine shall elect to ride in one of the following classes, BEARS (if eligible) or Supermoto. Final eligibility decision rests with the organiser whose decision shall be final. They are banned from Superlite

METHVEN MOUNTAIN THUNDER STREET RACE 2016 SUPPLEMENTARY RULES.
SUPERMOTARDS: as per MNZ rules. Motards are only eligible for the Motard class

GREYMOUTH MOTOR CYCLE STREET RACE SUNDAY 27TH OCTOBER 2013 (LABOUR WEEKEND) PERMIT 14575
Due to the tight nature of our circuit Supermotard machines can not cross enter into any other class.

[Drew]

Ever tried riding a bucket with pit bikes on the track. They take totally different corner lines and the chance of either tee boning one or being tee boned by one are really great. Same as when motards were allowed to ride within F3 (I think) which is why they were kicked into their own class. It would be totally irresponsible of the organizers to not act on a potentially dangerous situation.
Really though, there is nothing worse than some dick trying to fuck with the rules to suit their own agenda. Either get yourself on a rules compliant machine, and there are plenty to choose from or build your own which also isn't terribly difficult, or fuck off.
But earlier in the thread, everyone wanted to hold hands and sing koombaya, and try and make classic buckets work.

Yes, I have ridden a bucket and been stuck behind a motard one. Fuck it was fast off the turns. I also raced post classics when it was combined with F3 and motard, and B.E.A.Rs when Briggs was punting his Superduke. The last one is a good example, because I actually tagged his back wheel and took a flying lesson off the high side of the 749R. He was holding me up and I misjudged where I could pass him. Not his fault in the slightest, and he had as much right to be there as I did.

[Bert]

Hi Grump
Thank you for your reply.

As I said we are moving forward. Planing on using a FXR chassis and wheels. So that there would be no confusion as to it being a "pit bike". Was looking at what engines we could possibly use and at they moment, the most used ones were stated. The FXR 150 or Derbi 50 with a big bore kit. But looking into it the Derbi 50. It has issues as stated in my previous post. I'm posting my concerns as I feel they are justified and hope for a honest debate about those concerns. As we don't want any more issues moving forward.

Positive move.
Not knowing the full story, but on the face of it.
It's a good outcome if you have enjoyed the racing and despite the issue at hand; that you want to carry on being a part of the community and racing.

FXR chassis are a great starting point (being honest they are a little heavy, but with some minor changes can be made to work very well).
Yes, there are several views on said concerns re engines (not the FXR engine); something that really needs discussion. Sounds like something has been submitted, not sure that's the solution.
Would have liked the community to have resolved it. But given the toys and cots of late - it would have never happened...

But there are plenty of other engine options available (a TF/TS/ER 100/125 twostroke fits in a FXR frame very easily and produce good power).

:niceone:


Drew, can we sing koombaya together buddy?? You can take the high notes.

[Kickaha]

They take totally different corner lines and the chance of either tee boning one or being tee boned by one are really great.
Sounds like fucking near any Bucket race I've ever been in

[jasonu]

Hi Grump
Thank you for your reply.

Planing on using a FXR chassis and wheels. Was looking at what engines we could possibly use and at they moment, .

Why the hell didn't you do this in the first place instead of causing a big shit storm over something you were told was resolved many moons ago?

[Drew]

Sounds like fucking near any Bucket race I've ever been in

I was trying to keep that wee gem for later on. But it seems I don't get many responses since I stopped being abusive and calling everyone a cunt.

[Drew]

Why the hell didn't you do this in the first place instead of causing a big shit storm over something you were told was resolved many moons ago?

If the rules aren't clear (and they obviously arent), exploit them. That's how it works in every constructor class.

[Grumph]

If the rules aren't clear (and they obviously arent), exploit them. That's how it works in every constructor class.

I quite agree, I've made a career out of reading the rulebook and building motors in the loopholes, LOL.

BUT - what you don't do is ask MNZ for a clarification - EVER !!

The only time a clarification is needed it should be done by a protest committee - or an Appeal Committee. Both of those are bound by the rule book - not by one indivdual's interpretation. An opinion is not a rule.

[Bert]

I quite agree, I've made a career out of reading the rulebook and building motors in the loopholes, LOL.

BUT - what you don't do is ask MNZ for a clarification - EVER !!

The only time a clarification is needed it should be done by a protest committee - or an Appeal Committee. Both of those are bound by the rule book - not by one indivdual's interpretation. An opinion is not a rule.

It's a shame rule submissions are not treated with the same level of scrutiny as done by the protest / appeals committee - else the errors currently in the MOMs wouldn't exist...:facepalm:

[Grumph]

It's a shame rule submissions are not treated with the same level of scrutiny as done by the protest / appeals committee - else the errors currently in the MOMs wouldn't exist...:facepalm:

Well they have to look hard at the book - you've paid a fee to make them do it, LOL....

But I suspect the proofreader did it for free....

[wildman]

There is no rule what so ever that says you must ride any line, with all limbs on it's appropriate peg/bar.

The health and safety line was obviously a bollucks answer to end a conversation they didn't want to have.

If anyone asked leaf blower man to do that before he was excluded, I'm impressed they didn't end up getting the thing wrapped upside they head.

Bloody hell now Drew's in on this, Haven't you got a sidecar to re-engineer?.

[Henk]

The guy with the bike in question was not asked to get his leaf blower out, he did that off his own bat. He has also been told since he turned up that his bike was ineligible because of the ENGINE, we also told him that if they got six bikes they could have a race of their own, they managed that once.
We told him that if he could show that his engine was legal that we would allow it. The only response we got was "the Pitster proXXX uses a zongshen engine, the Forza involved has a zongshen engine" that is like saying a duck is a bird, a pigeon is a bird, therefore a pigeon is a duck.

I'm obviously not an unbiased party in this mainly because one of the protagonists has spent the better part of an hour shouting at me about this in the pits, which makes something I do for fun not fun.

As for BelindaS, the only way the amount of information she has on this issue makes sense is if I have spoken to her before, which I suspect is the case, and which makes the name on her drivers licence Jason, and his only interest in buckets isn't racing but being a mouthpiece for the guy who wants to race a bike that doesn't meet the rules, and who we have bent over backwards to accomodate.

[TZ350]

I'm obviously not an unbiased party in this mainly because one of the protagonists has spent the better part of an hour shouting at me about this in the pits.

As for BelindaS, the only way the amount of information she has on this issue makes sense is if I have spoken to her before, which I suspect is the case, and his only interest in buckets isn't racing but being a mouthpiece for the guy who wants to race a bike that doesn't meet the rules.

Belinda might be on a mission or just enjoying trolling trying to generate some sympathy for his friends cause but it has got us talking and thinking.

What I see is, organizers and particularly the steward carry quite a legal liability if things go wrong at a meeting. So it is pretty easy to see that allowing an inappropriate bike on the track that is then involved in an injury incident would leave them very legally exposed. That alone justifies the organizers right to be picky about what bikes are Bucket and track appropriate and meet the F4 - F5 and general Road Racing machine and MNZ's rider/spectator behavior rules.

320248

The underlying ethos of Buckets is to take a non competition bike/engine and make something of it.

320249

A Bucket can be as simple as a FXR150 with the road gear stripped off and ridden for shits and giggles. And that is enough for some people. Others might like to take it a little further and fit more suitable wheels and slicks and then there are the tuning crazies like myself.

Buckets is about making something from a bike that was not originally intended for competition, the defining requirement is having to make changes to the original purpose of the bike.

320237

It is hard to think of a pitbike as a serious competition machine but it fails the Bucket legal test because it is a purpose built bike, made to be ridden in competitive events with no work required. To compete with it you do not have to make any changes to its original purpose and that is what puts it off side legally with Buckets.

Maybe if the engine by itself is found to be legal, like purchased as a crate engine with the same specs as an overseas road legal mini bike and the rolling chassis by itself is certainly legal but probably not appropriate for Buckets. Use the engine in something else like a FXR chassis, or buy a pitbike chassis of Trade me for $5 and fit an FXR150 motor or something like a TF/TS125 to it, you would have something because both scenarios look like they could be legit, although they maybe not that welcome.

What you cant do is pickup a cheap pitbike rolling chassis and fit a pitbike engine sourced from somewhere else because that is just a restored pitbike.

In summary, this is the way I see it. (1) In the end the organizers have a right to refuse entry to whatever makes them feel uncomfortable and (2) if a bikes original purpose however lame is competition then it by definition is not Bucket legal.

So as I see it Belinda there are two requirements, not only does it have to be Bucket legal, maybe more importantly the organizers have to be comfortable with it or they are within their rights to not let it out on the track.

And if the organizers don't like your behavior they are within their legal rights to send you packing.

[wildman]

The guy with the bike in question was not asked to get his leaf blower out, he did that off his own bat. He has also been told since he turned up that his bike was ineligible because of the ENGINE, we also told him that if they got six bikes they could have a race of their own, they managed that once.
We told him that if he could show that his engine was legal that we would allow it. The only response we got was "the Pitster proXXX uses a zongshen engine, the Forza involved has a zongshen engine" that is like saying a duck is a bird, a pigeon is a bird, therefore a pigeon is a duck.

I'm obviously not an unbiased party in this mainly because one of the protagonists has spent the better part of an hour shouting at me about this in the pits, which makes something I do for fun not fun.

As for BelindaS, the only way the amount of information she has on this issue makes sense is if I have spoken to her before, which I suspect is the case, and which makes the name on her drivers licence Jason, and his only interest in buckets isn't racing but being a mouthpiece for the guy who wants to race a bike that doesn't meet the rules, and who we have bent over backwards to accomodate.

Good on you and well said Henk:niceone::niceone:

[BelindaS]

The guy with the bike in question was not asked to get his leaf blower out, he did that off his own bat. He has also been told since he turned up that his bike was ineligible because of the ENGINE, we also told him that if they got six bikes they could have a race of their own, they managed that once.
We told him that if he could show that his engine was legal that we would allow it. The only response we got was "the Pitster proXXX uses a zongshen engine, the Forza involved has a zongshen engine" that is like saying a duck is a bird, a pigeon is a bird, therefore a pigeon is a duck.

I'm obviously not an unbiased party in this mainly because one of the protagonists has spent the better part of an hour shouting at me about this in the pits, which makes something I do for fun not fun.

As for BelindaS, the only way the amount of information she has on this issue makes sense is if I have spoken to her before, which I suspect is the case, and which makes the name on her drivers licence Jason, and his only interest in buckets isn't racing but being a mouthpiece for the guy who wants to race a bike that doesn't meet the rules, and who we have bent over backwards to accomodate.


Hi Henk

You are seriously are beating a dead horse here and you and whoever killed the horse!

As I have stated before the leaf blower guy has moved on.

[FastFred]

Hi Henk You are seriously beating a dead horse here! As I have stated before the leaf blower guy has moved on.

To be honest Belinda I am not sure it was Henk who beat the horse to death, but thank you for promoting a discussion that clarified the status of pitbikes. Glad to hear you have moved on to racing something more appropriate.

[bucketracer]

320248

The underlying ethos of Buckets is to take a non competition bike/engine and make something of it.

320249

A Bucket can be as simple as a FXR150 with the road gear stripped off and ridden for shits and giggles. And that is enough for some people. Others might like to take it a little further and fit more suitable wheels and slicks and then there are the tuning crazies like myself.

Buckets is about making something from a bike that was not originally intended for competition, the defining requirement is having to make changes to the original purpose of the bike.

320237

It is hard to think of a pitbike as a serious competition machine but it fails the Bucket legal test because it is a purpose built bike, made to be ridden in competitive events with no work required. To compete with it you do not have to make any changes to its original purpose and that is what puts it off side legally with Buckets.

Organizers and particularly the steward carry quite a legal liability if things go wrong at a meeting. So it is pretty easy to see that allowing an inappropriate bike on the track that is then involved in an injury incident would leave them very legally exposed. That alone justifies the organizers right to be picky about what bikes are Bucket and track appropriate.

So as I see it Belinda there are two requirements, not only does it have to be Bucket legal, maybe more importantly the organizers have to be comfortable with it or they are within their rights to not let it out on the track.

Obvious when its spelled out ..... :niceone:

[BelindaS]

Obvious when its spelled out ..... :niceone:

Hi bucketracer

Here is a little test for just you. And the question is !!!!

What engine is in this road legal bike?
http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pro-LXM-155R-TWELVE-p/lxm-155-12-2015.htm

And to make it as easy as I can for you. Is it this engine from the same site.
http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pros-155-engine-p/pp155hocrate.htm

Is it YES or NO! :niceone:

[bucketracer]

Hi bucketracer

Here is a little test for just you. And the question is !!!!

What engine is in this road legal bike?
http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pro-LXM-155R-TWELVE-p/lxm-155-12-2015.htm

And to make it as easy as I can for you. Is it this engine from the same site.
http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pros-155-engine-p/pp155hocrate.htm

Is it YES or NO! :niceone:

The real question is, and this is just a question for you! are the organizers comfortable with it..... Is it YES or NO! :niceone:


In the end the organizers have a right to refuse entry to whatever makes them feel uncomfortable.l

[Drew]

Hi bucketracer

Here is a little test for just you. And the question is !!!!

What engine is in this road legal bike?
http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pro-LXM-155R-TWELVE-p/lxm-155-12-2015.htm

And to make it as easy as I can for you. Is it this engine from the same site.
http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pros-155-engine-p/pp155hocrate.htm

Is it YES or NO! :niceone:
That's black and white. Motor from a road bike, legal for buckets as long as it's inside the capacity limit. Since motors are being built left and right at the over bore limit, due to off the shelf piston availability , run it like it is and wait for a protest.