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bucketracer
9th March 2016, 21:04
Buckets is about making something from a bike that was not originally intended for competition, the defining requirement is having to make changes to the original purpose of the bike.

320237

It is hard to think of a pitbike as a serious competition machine but it fails the Bucket legal test because it is a purpose built bike, made to be ridden in competitive events with no work required. To compete with it you do not have to make any changes to its original purpose and that is what puts it off side legally with Buckets.

Maybe if the engine by itself is found to be legal, like purchased as a crate engine with the same specs as an overseas road legal mini bike and the rolling chassis by itself is certainly legal but probably not appropriate for Buckets. Use the engine in something else like a FXR chassis, or buy a pitbike chassis of Trade me for $5 and fit an FXR150 motor or something like a TF/TS125 to it, you would have something because both scenarios look like they could be legit, although they maybe not that welcome.

What you cant do is pickup a cheap pitbike rolling chassis and fit a pitbike engine sourced from somewhere else because that is just a restored pitbike.

And to make it as easy as I can for you Belinda. I have quoted TZ again. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

mr bucketracer
9th March 2016, 21:10
And to make it as easy as I can for you. I have quoted TZ again.

Belinda are you reading any of this, or are you just enjoying flapping your gums. Is it YES or NO! http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gifyou...................

Bert
9th March 2016, 21:16
The real question is, and this is just a question for you! are the organizers comfortable with it..... Is it YES or NO! :niceone:


That's black and white. Motor from a road bike, legal for buckets as long as it's inside the capacity limit. Since motors are being built left and right at the over bore limit, due to off the shelf piston availability , run it like it is and wait for a protest.

Go back three pages and I'm sure I point that out too.
No different to grabbing a C90 and grafting a XL200 cylinder and head (or a GY150 scooter cylinder &head).

I'd really be concerned about the class/sport if this type of engine was not allowed to be grafted into a roller (FXR etc.). I don't know why you would ever consider it but, but that up to you.

But if you are a constant dickhead about things - then I wouldn't hold anything against any organiser for telling you to fuck off. Don't forget your entry doesn't need to be accepted & the code of conduct that all riders have to adher too f your entry is accepted (you signed the entry form - adher to the rules). Worthy of note - riders can be banned very easily (breaches of the code of conduct are actually the easiest to action)..

AM6 motors.... Now that's another can of worms. But given their wide spread use from little road engines to miniMX: it's almost impossible to not allow them under the same pretence... Forget about the designation or name on the side of the engine - they are all the same.

BelindaS
9th March 2016, 21:33
And to make it as easy as I can for you Belinda. I have quoted TZ again. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

Hi Bucketracer you failed to answer the question.

lets try this again!! One more time. Is this engine, in this bike, if the motor was de-stroked to below 150cc. Legal YES or NO
http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pro-LXM-155R-TWELVE-p/lxm-155-12-2015.htm

Bucketracer. Please read Drew's reply


That's black and white. Motor from a road bike, legal for buckets as long as it's inside the capacity limit. Since motors are being built left and right at the over bore limit, due to off the shelf piston availability , run it like it is and wait for a protest.

Thank you Drew for your reply

bucketracer
9th March 2016, 21:40
Hi Bucketracer you failed to answer the question. lets try this again!! One more time. Is this engine, in this bike, if the motor was de-stroked to below 150cc. Legal YES or NO http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pro-LXM-155R-TWELVE-p/lxm-155-12-2015.htm

Belinda ...... you failed to answer the question lets try this again!! One more time.


The real question is, and this is just a question for you! are the organizers comfortable with it..... Is it YES or NO! :niceone:

BelindaS
9th March 2016, 21:47
Go back three pages and I'm sure I point that out too.
No different to grabbing a C90 and grafting a XL200 cylinder and head (or a GY150 scooter cylinder &head).

I'd really be concerned about the class/sport if this type of engine was not allowed to be grafted into a roller (FXR etc.). I don't know why you would ever consider it but, but that up to you.

But if you are a constant dickhead about things - then I wouldn't hold anything against any organiser for telling you to fuck off. Don't forget your entry doesn't need to be accepted & the code of conduct that all riders have to adher too f your entry is accepted (you signed the entry form - adher to the rules). Worthy of note - riders can be banned very easily (breaches of the code of conduct are actually the easiest to action)..

AM6 motors.... Now that's another can of worms. But given their wide spread use from little road engines to miniMX: it's almost impossible to not allow them under the same pretence... Forget about the designation or name on the side of the engine - they are all the same.


Hi Bert.

The decision to not only ban the engine but the bike as well, was done with no consultation with use at all.

As I have stated earlier we have moved on with a FXR.

But bucketracer was goading with his replies so asked him a simple question. He is unable to answer the question. His choice.

some get it some don't

Bert
9th March 2016, 21:47
Belinda ...... you failed to answer the question lets try this again!! One more time.

Settle petal. Going around in circles (both sides) is quite boring, the thread is a little bigger than this discussion.


Hi Bert.

The decision to not only ban the engine but the bike as well, was done with no consultation with use at all.
As I have stated earlier we have moved on with a FXR.
But bucketracer was goading with his replies so asked him a simple question. He is unable to answer the question. His choice.
some get it some don't

Well I made my view about pitbikes long ago, they fall outside the intent of the class.
Happy riding with them if clubs let them in - happy if they are in their own class - happy if they do their own thing.
Not a reflection on the people riding them - just the bikes.
I always felt it would and in tears at some stage.
MNZ have now made a ruling so everyone has to suck that up (there is no consultation process - when this happens). no matter what view you hold.

Bucketracer isn't MNZ nor the one pulling the strings - so if you think he (and 90% of the rest of us) really have all the answers: that really hold any weight (then you're deluded).
In fact Bugger all people on the thread/forum can answer those questions.
Email the club for their thoughts on the topic (constructively); if you are a member then they would likely reply with their interpretation/application of the Rules and rulings (they may even suggest contacting MNZ or be party to that conversation if they feel they can not provide a suitable answer. Be aware - no is also an answer... It is risk management and up to the club how they submit permits and run events - not the riders)...

If you are not a member of the club and/or hold an MNZ licence: then you should consider where your views/issues or what ever: sit in the pecking order. If you don't have one or both then you are not contributing to the sport, thus you just need to take it as it comes...

Can I suggest starting a new thread.

bucketracer
9th March 2016, 21:55
Email the club for their thoughts on the topic (constructively).

Using Belindas own words in the hope she may understand them, I have been suggesting the same thing myself.


The real question is, and this is just a question for you! are the organizers comfortable with it..... Is it YES or NO! http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

And


Can I suggest starting a new thread.

Belinda hijacked this one, happy to continue to solicit some meaningful answers from her on her own thread.

jasonu
10th March 2016, 03:35
Hi bucketracer

Here is a little test for just you. And the question is !!!!

What engine is in this road legal bike?
http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pro-LXM-155R-TWELVE-p/lxm-155-12-2015.htm

And to make it as easy as I can for you. Is it this engine from the same site.
http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pros-155-engine-p/pp155hocrate.htm

Is it YES or NO! :niceone:

Is it road legal in NZ?????
Is it YES or NO!

You can ride am RM85 on the roads in Nigeria but that doesn't make it road legal or non competition in NZ.
Seriously Belinda, even if you did get your shitty bike OK'ed to race in Buckets how do you think you will be welcomed at the track after all this bullshit you have stirred up and all the shouting you and your dick mates have done at organizers like Henk? I seriously doubt you will be made to feel welcome.

cotswold
10th March 2016, 05:01
Hi bucketracer

Here is a little test for just you. And the question is !!!!

What engine is in this road legal bike?
http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pro-LXM-155R-TWELVE-p/lxm-155-12-2015.htm

And to make it as easy as I can for you. Is it this engine from the same site.
http://www.factorypowerhouse.com/Pitster-Pros-155-engine-p/pp155hocrate.htm

Is it YES or NO! :niceone:

Try this one Bell's,

one is a full on 500 MX bike the other is a road legal commuter I built out of a full on 500 mx bike are they the same ?? ( though that may be the 250 I built first for the trial run )

Drew
10th March 2016, 05:58
Is it road legal in NZ?????
Is it YES or NO!

You can ride am RM85 on the roads in Nigeria but that doesn't make it road legal or non competition in NZ.
Seriously Belinda, even if you did get your shitty bike OK'ed to race in Buckets how do you think you will be welcomed at the track after all this bullshit you have stirred up and all the shouting you and your dick mates have done at organizers like Henk? I seriously doubt you will be made to feel welcome.
You're grasping at straws...runs away and checks quickly...there are no homologation rules in miniature road race.

Try this one Bell's,

one is a full on 500 MX bike the other is a road legal commuter I built out of a full on 500 mx bike are they the same ?? ( though that may be the 250 I built first for the trial run )

You guys are taking the piss eh? You making some hori commuter is not the same as something being mass produced.

FastFred
10th March 2016, 06:36
Is it road legal in NZ????? Is it YES or NO! You can ride am RM85 on the roads in Nigeria but that doesn't make it road legal or non competition in NZ.


Road Legal .... na the wording of the rule is "16.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. ". Even Belinda could tell you that.

FastFred
10th March 2016, 07:02
320268

Powered by a non competition crate engine, totally Bucket legal but not that appropriate.

Spelling it out for Belinda.

In the end it does not matter how Bucket legal it is, if the organizers are uncomfortable with what you have brought to the track they do not have to let you ride.

Now how hard is that to understand.

Belinda now its your turn, do you understand that, its a simple answer ... Yes or No

Cheesy
10th March 2016, 07:24
320268

Powered by a non competition crate engine, totally Bucket legal but not that appropriate.

Spelling it out for Belinda.

In the end it does not matter how Bucket legal it is, if the organizers are uncomfortable with what you have brought to the track they do not have to let you ride.

Now how hard is that to understand.

Belinda now its your turn, do you understand that, its a simple answer ... Yes or No

Are you sure? looks like it is derived from a chainsaw not a "non-competition motorcycle"

FastFred
10th March 2016, 08:45
Good spotting and when I look at it you may be right about this one, but the point was, that a bike that is technically legal may not be appropriate.


Are you sure? looks like it is derived from a chainsaw not a "non-competition motorcycle"

Quoting myself just in case you missed the real point of the post the first time.



In the end it does not matter how Bucket legal it is, if the organizers are uncomfortable with what you have brought to the track they do not have to let you ride.

Anyway it is worth a Google look at the motor powered bicycles as there are some pretty cleaver units.

jasonu
10th March 2016, 10:29
You're grasping at straws...runs away and checks quickly...there are no homologation rules in miniature road race.

.

Not grasping at anything mate, I know the rules.
My point was that silly bitch was trying to say that because the pitbike she is bleating on about is road legal in the states then that should make it bucket legal in NZ.

jasonu
10th March 2016, 10:30
Road Legal .... na the wording of the rule is "16.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. ". Even Belinda could tell you that.

I know the fucking rules.
See my reply to Drew.

seymour14
10th March 2016, 11:13
Now if I could only do something about my ugly riding style...:laugh:

jasonu
10th March 2016, 14:25
Road Legal .... na the wording of the rule is "16.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. ". Even Belinda could tell you that.

Sorry mate. My sarcasm sensor was turned off.....:Oops:

Drew
10th March 2016, 16:41
Not grasping at anything mate, I know the rules.
My point was that silly bitch was trying to say that because the pitbike she is bleating on about is road legal in the states then that should make it bucket legal in NZ.

'She' is a 'he' called Jason (if I read what Henk wrote correctly). And yeah, being released as a road bike over there means it's 'non competition'. That the motor is also in a competition bike makes no difference, as has been the 'company line' with regards to the Derbi.

To sum up, the only reason to exclude is down to the lines taken. Bruce Telford proved beyond doubt that without dirt sections and jumps, knee out swooping lines is fastest on a motard.

Cut the bars to 915mm and go at it I reckon

jasonu
10th March 2016, 17:16
'She' is a 'he' called Jason (if I read what Henk wrote correctly). And yeah, being released as a road bike over there means it's 'non competition'. That the motor is also in a competition bike makes no difference, as has been the 'company line' with regards to the Derbi.

To sum up, the only reason to exclude is down to the lines taken. Bruce Telford proved beyond doubt that without dirt sections and jumps, knee out swooping lines is fastest on a motard.

Cut the bars to 915mm and go at it I reckon

So Belinda is a geezer?????

Drew
10th March 2016, 17:18
So Belinda is a geezer?????

That's the way I read it.

Yow Ling
10th March 2016, 18:27
So Belinda is a geezer?????

Nobody would have been interested in his story otherwise

bucketracer
10th March 2016, 20:45
So Belinda is a geezer?????

I am pretty sure Belinda is a girl.

husaberg
10th March 2016, 20:55
I am pretty sure Belinda is a girl.

I am pretty sure there are traditional ways of finding out.
http://i.imgur.com/f4LuhoF.gif

Rick 52
11th March 2016, 06:53
I am pretty sure there are traditional ways of finding out.
http://i.imgur.com/f4LuhoF.gif

Hahahah that is gold !

She is a Man and a complete warmonger at that !

Take a CRF250 to a PIt bike dirt track and see if they would let you race ?

The free time and effort that has gone into this rubbish is criminal,
If this has a effect on the Fun we have had over the past years, racers will not come back, organisers will leave !

Please leave all this at home this weekend, lets enjoy the racing, camping and Port on the corner :cool:

FastFred
11th March 2016, 11:34
Never Happy to see someone bagged but he in the guise of Belinda was happy to start off letting us think he was a she, no doubt to garner a bit of attention for her story.

So I guess a bit of a public outing is a hazard for gilding the truth.

TZ350
12th April 2016, 12:04
.

I was tempted to just leave it but in the interests of democracy.

The proposed Rule Changes are out on the MNZ site:- https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/2016-summary-of-all-proposed-rule-changes-for-website.pdf?sfvrsn=2

The ones probably most relevant to this thread are:-

Chapter 16 – Miniature Road Racing, New Rule: -

16.2h Pitbikes:Pit bikes such as, but not limited to, Forza, Thumpstar and PitsterPro, are not permitted. The final decision as to what constitutes a pit bike will be at the discretion of the Steward of the meeting inconjunction with the machine examiner.

Chapter 16 – Miniature Road Racing, Proposed Changes to the Existing Rule 16.2:-

16.2 (Version 1)Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make,type or design of carburetor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged.

16.2 (Version 2)Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the use of commercially available after-market engine parts for non-competition motorcycles other than aftermarket parts shall be identical to the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) parts they replace.There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburetor, ignition, exhaust, piston,cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburetor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted toa single 20mm carburetor.

Page 11 of .... https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/2016-summary-of-all-proposed-rule-changes-for-website.pdf?sfvrsn=2 ... Feedback MUST be submitted before the 30th of April 2016 to:- admin@mnz.co.nz

Now don't waste your energy debating these on here, if you have a worthwhile opinion then MNZ is calling for submissions on these proposed rule changes, you have until the end of the month, that is about two weeks.

Bert
12th April 2016, 17:10
Thanks rob for posting that.

Time to have a good think about the two options (already knowing they had been suggested).

The question for everyone to consider is: how do they feel about what has been proposed and the source/problem that is trying to be addressed.
Note: I think it has been good that two options have been put forward for the communitee to vote on.

Does what is proposed solve the grey area and said bikes/engineering/solutions that fall inside the grey area.

goose8
12th April 2016, 18:10
.

I was tempted to just leave it but in the interests of democracy.

The proposed Rule Changes are out on the MNZ site:- https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/2016-summary-of-all-proposed-rule-changes-for-website.pdf?sfvrsn=2

The ones probably most relevant to this thread are:-

Chapter 16 – Miniature Road Racing, New Rule: -

16.2h Pitbikes:Pit bikes such as, but not limited to, Forza, Thumpstar and PitsterPro, are not permitted. The final decision as to what constitutes a pit bike will be at the discretion of the Steward of the meeting inconjunction with the machine examiner.

Chapter 16 – Miniature Road Racing, Proposed Changes to the Existing Rule 16.2:-

16.2 (Version 1)Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make,type or design of carburetor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged.

16.2 (Version 2)Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the use of commercially available after-market engine parts for non-competition motorcycles other than aftermarket parts shall be identical to the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) parts they replace.There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburetor, ignition, exhaust, piston,cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburetor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted toa single 20mm carburetor.

Page 11 of .... https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/2016-summary-of-all-proposed-rule-changes-for-website.pdf?sfvrsn=2 ... Feedback MUST be submitted before the 30th of April 2016 to:- admin@mnz.co.nz

Now don't waste your energy debating these on here, if you have a worthwhile opinion then MNZ is calling for submissions on these proposed rule changes, you have until the end of the month, that is about two weeks.
So version 2 would make big bore derbi's outside of the rules because they are not the same size as oem am I reading this right ?

F5 Dave
12th April 2016, 18:11
Oh lordy! Both versions still have the (s). And that just leaves it legally still wide open. Why won't that move? Oh well not my problem.

mr bucketracer
12th April 2016, 18:25
So version 2 would make big bore derbi's outside of the rules because they are not the same size as oem am I reading this right ?guess a bored out standard cylinder would work

TZ350
12th April 2016, 19:31
So version 2 would make big bore derbi's outside of the rules because they are not the same size as oem am I reading this right ?

I think the intention was, that if OEM has a single exhaust port then to be legal the after market cylinder must only have single a exhaust port too. Otherwise its purchased performance when Buckets is about creating performance, not buying it.

husaberg
12th April 2016, 19:49
I think the intention was, that if OEM has a single exhaust port then to be legal the after market cylinder must only have single a exhaust port too. Otherwise its purchased performance when Buckets is about creating performance, not buying it.

Only issue there is identical to my mind rules out that, plus better say silver plated or straight cadged bearings etc,etc.
Plus as Dave said that bloody S.

TZ350
12th April 2016, 19:54
if you intend of reviewing the whole portion the S needs to be clarified.


Isnt that S suppose to be removed?


What ..... :facepalm: Ok I am confused, someone else can do that bit.

A better definition of a 24mm carb equivalent was my interest, the "S" well apparently someone else did not get to it.


Oh lordy! Both versions still have the (s). And that just leaves it legally still wide open.

Sketchy_Racer
12th April 2016, 20:04
Who wrote that Version 2???

Good luck enforcing that one......

Pumba
12th April 2016, 20:07
Got to love this proposed change


Chapter 18 – Sidecar (Road)
18.7h - Change last sentence to read:
This section does not apply to sidecars (Buckets) as described in Chapter 24 and does not apply to International Sidecars temporarily competing in NZ.

There is no chapter 24 in the MOMS :brick::brick::brick::brick:

husaberg
12th April 2016, 20:07
A better definition of a 24mm carb equivalent was my interest, the "S" well apparently someone else did not get to it.

Don't get me wrong, the S is great loophole , its a gap big enough that a bus can be driven through:2thumbsup

Grumph
12th April 2016, 20:10
Who wrote that Version 2???

Good luck enforcing that one......

Not that bad...onus of proof is always on the competitor so take your stock derbi barrel along in the spares. Nicasil rather than an iron liner may be a giveaway in some cases...

Nothing to prevent home made stuff either.

Pumba
12th April 2016, 20:11
Who wrote that Version 2???

Good luck enforcing that one......

My thoughts exactly.

So the way I see it we have the choice between a rule that removes the 24mm carb restriction and another that is almost un-enforcable with out the complete tear down of an engine to inspect.

I can see what I the intent was this is not right

mr bucketracer
12th April 2016, 20:18
My thoughts exactly.

So the way I see it we have the choice between a rule that removes the 24mm carb restriction and another that is almost un-enforcable with out the complete tear down of an engine to inspect.

I can see what I the intent was this is not rightback in the day , first 3 bikes had tops removed after gp , maybe time to bring this back

Pumba
12th April 2016, 20:39
back in the day , first 3 bikes had tops removed after gp , maybe time to bring this back

Maybe. Sounds like extra work for the organisers that are already sick of the BS though.

Sketchy_Racer
12th April 2016, 20:41
Not that bad...onus of proof is always on the competitor so take your stock derbi barrel along in the spares. Nicasil rather than an iron liner may be a giveaway in some cases...

Nothing to prevent home made stuff either.

Yeah but you see, my "OEM" replacement Cylinder started life as a single port with an Iron bore, and the I added Aux exhaust ports and had the liner removed and Nickasiled, you can tell by my grinding marks that I added.. honest.

What defines "home made" If i grind every surface of a barrel just a little bit is it now homemade as by definition I started with a "block of metal" and ended up with a barrel suitable to go racing, just same if I started with a billet "block of metal" and just removed more of the metal until it was a barrel suitable to go racing.

I am being facetious here, but this just reaffirms my belief that buckets should be going through a rule minimisation, not adding more rules!


My thoughts exactly.

So the way I see it we have the choice between a rule that removes the 24mm carb restriction and another that is almost un-enforcable with out the complete tear down of an engine to inspect.

I can see what I the intent was this is not right

All the rules should go. The only rule in my opinion should be a capacity rule. End of story. No more moaning about "cheater bikes". Either your with in the capacity of your chosen engine configuration or you are not. Simple.

mr bucketracer
12th April 2016, 21:15
Maybe. Sounds like extra work for the organisers that are already sick of the BS though.i agree....but , i wright something out but can't post lol:brick:

Yow Ling
12th April 2016, 21:41
Don't get me wrong, the S is great loophole , its a gap big enough that a bus can be driven through:2thumbsup

Its a silent S , and like family violence its best not talked about in public.

Nobody has dared test it to its limits yet

TZ350
12th April 2016, 21:48
Got to love this proposed change



There is no chapter 24 in the MOMS :brick::brick::brick::brick:

Its chapter 16 now.


So the way I see it we have the choice between a rule that removes the 24mm carb restriction and another that is almost un-enforcable

There is three choices, (1) the current 16.2 rule, (2) proposed version 1 or (3) proposed version 2.

husaberg
12th April 2016, 21:52
Its a silent S , and like family violence its best not talked about in public.

Nobody has dared test it to its limits yet

Oh contraire, likely plenty of people have, with blissful ignorance of the officials.

TZ350
12th April 2016, 21:53
The only rule in my opinion should be a capacity rule. End of story. No more moaning about "cheater bikes". Either your with in the capacity of your chosen engine configuration or you are not. Simple.

I like the idea of a set of maximum capacity's, do away with this re bore nonsense.

Moooools
13th April 2016, 10:31
Yeah but you see, my "OEM" replacement Cylinder started life as a single port with an Iron bore, and the I added Aux exhaust ports and had the liner removed and Nickasiled, you can tell by my grinding marks that I added.. honest.

What defines "home made" If i grind every surface of a barrel just a little bit is it now homemade as by definition I started with a "block of metal" and ended up with a barrel suitable to go racing, just same if I started with a billet "block of metal" and just removed more of the metal until it was a barrel suitable to go racing.

I had the same thought. It is kind of a 'Ship of Theseus' problem that renders the rule un-enforcable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Yow Ling
13th April 2016, 14:17
So if we take option 1 , then next year argue the meaning of "competition " we should be very close to the ideal rule set

TALLIS
13th April 2016, 16:17
Maybe. Sounds like extra work for the organisers that are already sick of the BS though.
What the point of having rules if no one is going to enforce them, I'm swaying towards the "simplest" set of rules to enforce, witch is capacity. There's no arguing if an engine is measured up over, simple. Is that con rod a competition part? Or that set of rings? Or that oil filter? Now that's making it hard.

TZ350
13th April 2016, 16:35
.

I like the concept of the F4 F5 bucket rules being three simple sentences and a list of maximum capacity's for various engine types. With no over bore allowance as it will have already been allowed for in the maximum capacity's stipulated.


Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature

24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motor and transmission parts are not permitted except for class eligibility.

There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility.

All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged.



4T - 200cc 2 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 170cc 4 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 160cc 4 valve Water cooled Non Competition
4T - 150cc Competition Engine

2T - 125cc Air Cooled Non Competition
2T - 105cc Water Cooled Non Competition
2T - 85cc Competition Engine


The Bucket rules could be as simple as the above.

goivy26
13th April 2016, 21:13
Wow, there are some very heated posts to this thread. Makes me not want to finish my bucket build.

I 1st rode a bucket in 2011, it was a Forza motard 140 it cost me $1500 brand new and I rode it to death, but I sold it because I knew it was upsetting a few racers and I agree that yeh it doesn't fit the rules but the thing was it was cheap and fairly competitive straight off.

I brought an FXR 150 and started building a bucket racer with it , I brought wheels and big piston and looked into cams and carbs when the build bill got over the 2 grand mark and still a long way to go to finish it I sold it for $900 to a bloke in Wellington, I wonder if he ever got it going?

I still wanted to bucket race but like anyone wanted a decent bike but they cost a lot to build if you don't have an engineering shop in the garage or mates etc, and to purchase a awesome bucket if you can find one isn't cheap either!

So jump forward to now and I've been building my NSR / TS 125 which is now close to completion but has cost a fortune, I won't post how much as my wife may see it.

I know that many bucket purists love the existing rules for various reasons but I truely believe that the capacity rules touted by Glenn and Rich would make for such an easy low cost formula that would encourage those people with limited resources, funds or experience into bucket racing and would suggest that it would be imperative to have changes such as this for the growth of the sports future.

I'm not trying to be know it all just an objective view.

seymour14
13th April 2016, 22:47
I don't think anyone here is causing a stir at all, some good options are being put up.

There is big merit in making this as simple as possible, capacity being a set upper rule with no worries about how you achieve it.

The real controversy comes in with what is determined a competition part and how to police that. Because I can manufacture any competition part that is asked of me at a price...:facepalm::no::shifty:

Now you need to stop me, because I have been trained by Dr Evil and I will do anything for one million dollars...:laugh:

Pumba
29th April 2016, 20:15
Last chance to make a submission if you haven't already done so!

F5 Dave
29th April 2016, 20:18
I say biofuel or diesel you polluting barstards.

Grumph
30th April 2016, 07:14
I say biofuel or diesel you polluting barstards.

Been there, missed that chance in '89 or so.
We had the opportunity to use NZ made methanol and synthetic oils...and banned meth.
Bastards.

TZ350
30th April 2016, 07:43
I say biofuel or diesel you polluting bastards.

It is Buckets the premier no holds barred development class. CNG and Water injection!

I am all for open fuel regs, I am with you, maybe next year ..... :niceone:

Grumph
30th April 2016, 09:25
It is Buckets the premier no holds barred development class. CNG and Water injection!

I am all for open fuel regs, I am with you, maybe next year ..... :niceone:

Open fuel, yes. Pressurised tanks, not so much.
I don't personally like what i see as an increased risk of fire from pressurised injection lines either.

TZ350
30th April 2016, 19:56
Open fuel, yes. Pressurised tanks, not so much. I don't personally like what i see as an increased risk of fire from pressurised injection lines either.

Makes sense, I think about it too.

There are a few EFI bikes out there now. There are four EFI bikes that I know of at Mt Wellington, five if you count mine. And time to time there has been an RG50 running NOS out there thrashing a lot of the F4 B grade field.

321257

Maybe pursuing new ideas in Bucket building is just too dangerous.

321256

F5 Dave
30th April 2016, 20:12
FZR600. UK as it has a Harrison 6 potter on well, the disc.

husaberg
30th April 2016, 20:16
FZR600. UK as it has a Harrison 6 potter on well, the disc.

it would say it was a pisstake photoshop out of PB or FB bike mag possibly on Andy Idiot or Dan Harris.
Edit on closer inspection it looks like the name on the screen is indeed Dan harris... maybe?

jasonu
3rd May 2016, 14:38
I say biofuel or diesel you polluting barstards.

Except everyone knows you are a bit of a dick and no one cares what you say...


BTW Start saving for a trip over here July 2016 for my 50th... and tell Gossamer too

Kickaha
3rd May 2016, 18:36
Except everyone knows you are a bit of a dick

Only "a bit of a dick" are we talking about the right Dave here?

F5 Dave
3rd May 2016, 20:39
Two and a half k! Sorry bud that's not going to happen, at least while the job situation is a bit, well, dicky.

Grumph
4th May 2016, 11:16
Two and a half k! Sorry bud that's not going to happen, at least while the job situation is a bit, well, dicky.

Start a "give a little" page....I'm thinking of financing my next build this way as it seems a popular way of raising cash for strange things....

bucketracer
19th June 2016, 19:39
... there should simply be a maximum capacity stated for various types of engines in the various classes.

Hopefully this discussion will start soon.

TZ350
26th June 2016, 22:52
322561
Speaking of 85's, here is an example of one... Not to upset anyone, but was done more to test the concept as sketchy has done. Was put together in about 6 hours.

Good looking bike.

To get away from the standard capacity plus oversize re-bore issues there is talk about just having a list of maximum capacity's.

Maybe there is a place for the MX85.



... this rule is needlessly complex and there should simply be a maximum capacity stated for various types of engines in the various classes.
Hopefully this discussion will start soon.

FastFred
27th June 2016, 09:53
I truely believe that the capacity rules touted by Glenn and Rich would make for such an easy low cost formula that would encourage those people with limited resources, funds or experience into bucket racing.


There is big merit in making this as simple as possible, capacity being a set upper rule with no worries about how you achieve it.


Rules should be capacity based and that should be the end of it.

4T - 200cc 2 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 170cc 4 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 160cc 4 valve Water cooled Non Competition
4T - 150cc Competition Engine

2T - 125cc Air Cooled Non Competition
2T - 105cc Water Cooled Non Competition
2T - 85cc Competition Engine

Less rules means less bullshit!!!!!!


On the topic of capacity and older style engines (such as 2 valve 4ts), it's worth looking at the Australian NSW bucket racing rules as they've done just this.

CLICK HERE FOR FULL RULES (http://www.ozbucketracing.com/rules.html#2011_Motolite_Rules)

2014 Motolite Rules
Classes: One class combining:

- 111cc Air-cooled single cylinder 2 stroke
- 159cc Air-cooled 2 valve twin cylinder 4 stroke
- 175cc Air-cooled 3, 4 or 5 valve 1cyl. 4 stroke
- 190cc Air-cooled Horizontal 4 Valve 4 speed
gearbox (Laydown Motor)
- 230cc Air-cooled 2 valve single cylinder 4 stroke
- 85cc Water-cooled 2 stroke
- 159cc Water-cooled 4 valve single cyl. 4 stroke
- 185cc Water-cooled 2 valve single cyl 4 stroke

Some people have already floated good ideas about suitable capacities.

F5 Dave
27th June 2016, 12:50
How about a super bucket class? No engine restrictions but kart track only and road legal 90 width rear tyre maximum.

Drew
27th June 2016, 17:34
How about a super bucket class? No engine restrictions but kart track only and road legal 90 width rear tyre maximum.

Easy. FZR 250 could win that all day I should think...geared down to all fuck.

richban
27th June 2016, 18:43
Easy. FZR 250 could win that all day I should think...geared down to all fuck.

I reckon we should do some controlled to out of control experiments. Like put a 450 mx engine in a bucket and see it is dangerous to ride on a kart track. Bags first go!

Then like if that seams silly, we go to like 40hp something and so on. But I spoz Mototardo's run 450s on kart tracks.

Really, I have nothing constructive to add. Go the 50!!!!!!!. Whoop whoop.

Kickaha
27th June 2016, 18:57
I reckon we should do some controlled to out of control experiments. Like put a 450 mx engine in a bucket and see it is dangerous to ride on a kart track. Bags first go!

Then like if that seams silly, we go to like 40hp something and so on. But I spoz Mototardo's run 450s on kart tracks.

Really, I have nothing constructive to add. Go the 50!!!!!!!. Whoop whoop.

I know a 675 has been tried on a Kart track

husaberg
27th June 2016, 18:59
I reckon we should do some controlled to out of control experiments. Like put a 450 mx engine in a bucket and see it is dangerous to ride on a kart track. Bags first go!

Then like if that seams silly, we go to like 40hp something and so on. But I spoz Mototardo's run 450s on kart tracks.

Really, I have nothing constructive to add. Go the 50!!!!!!!. Whoop whoop.

450's are for pussies.
its on Rs125 slicks........

Kickaha
27th June 2016, 19:06
its on Rs125 slicks........
Reminds me, Kart track has been done on an RS125 as well

Pumba
27th June 2016, 19:29
I know a 675 has been tried on a Kart track

I know a GSXR1000 as been on Mt Wellington.......

F5 Dave
27th June 2016, 20:35
Reminds me, Kart track has been done on an RS125 as well
Yeah Yak ran his RS125 in the 90s for a laugh. We smashed him and he wasn't that keen on the clutch abuse required.

F5 Dave
27th June 2016, 20:38
And I was more thinking CR250 in an RG frame with Shinkos.:corn::scooter::Oops::doctor:

richban
27th June 2016, 20:40
450's are for pussies.
its on Rs125 slicks........

Oh god. Is that a CR500. Now that would be silly.

husaberg
27th June 2016, 21:16
Oh god. Is that a CR500. Now that would be silly.

They did say open.............

Kickaha
27th June 2016, 21:19
Yeah Yak ran his RS125 in the 90s for a laugh. We smashed him and he wasn't that keen on the clutch abuse required.

This was Invergiggle, early 2000s pre Nationals testing :msn-wink:

speedpro
27th June 2016, 21:26
Someone, possibly a Steadman, years ago suggested a "box" class. If it fitted in a set size box you could race it. Classes would simply be defined by different size boxes. No other rules.

jasonu
28th June 2016, 04:39
I know a GSXR1000 as been on Mt Wellington.......

Last century a real wanker who shall remain nameless almost got Buckets banned from Mt Wellington by laying darkies on the straight on a (IIRC) FZR1000, filming it and getting it put on the TV news just before he went to Daytona to race the Britten. The Kart club prez saw it and went ape shit.

husaberg
28th June 2016, 18:02
Last century a real wanker who shall remain nameless almost got Buckets banned from Mt Wellington by laying darkies on the straight on a (IIRC) FZR1000, filming it and getting it put on the TV news just before he went to Daytona to race the Britten. The Kart club prez saw it and went ape shit.

They should have made him a eunuch..............:nya:

TZ350
7th July 2016, 23:12
Well, the rule changes are out, it seems that there are no changes to the Bucket rules so the F5 4T 20mm and F4 2T 24mm carb rules are still there.

And that is Ok by me, :2thumbsup I am very pleased that all my carburetor development work is not going to be wasted. .... if you know what to do, 24mm is absolutely no impediment at all to a 2T Bucket looking to make reasonable sized power.

F5 Dave
8th July 2016, 07:29
:crazy:Reasonable?!??

Who wants stinkn Reasonable?

FastFred
8th July 2016, 07:39
Well, the rule changes are out, it seems that there are no changes to the Bucket rules so the F5 4T 20mm and F4 2T 24mm carb rules are still there.

And that is Ok by me, :2thumbsup I am very pleased that all my carburetor development work is not going to be wasted. .... if you know what to do, 24mm is absolutely no impediment at all to a 2T Bucket looking to make reasonable sized power.


:crazy:Reasonable?!??

Who wants stinkn Reasonable?

Reasonable ..... maybe TeeZee deliberately misspelled that, I think he meant, it is possible to make Un-Reasonably large amounts of power with a 24 and just did not want to frighten the anxious hanky wringers.

322907

Henk
8th July 2016, 18:36
The thing that cracks me up a bit is that all these rule changes always seem to be suggested by people who aren't part of actually running the events, you know the folk that would be expected to enforce said rules. It's not like we have a surplus of volunteers to help run things at the moment without making things more difficult to work out and police.

Bert
8th July 2016, 18:42
The thing that cracks me up a bit is that all these rule changes always seem to be suggested by people who aren't part of actually running the events, you know the folk that would be expected to enforce said rules. It's not like we have a surplus of volunteers to help run things at the moment without making things more difficult to work out and police.

Yea, have to feel for you guys. Lucky that bucketeers aren't over sentitive around the rules or who wins (until recently)...

I'll buy you a set of verniers for Christmas

Henk
8th July 2016, 21:27
Yea, have to feel for you guys. Lucky that bucketeers aren't over sentitive around the rules or who wins (until recently)...

I'll buy you a set of verniers for Christmas

Got verniers, get me beer.

Pumba
8th July 2016, 22:36
Yea, have to feel for you guys. Lucky that bucketeers aren't over sentitive around the rules or who wins (until recently)...

I'll buy you a set of verniers for Christmas


Got verniers, get me beer.

As opposed to Stolen Rum

Bert
9th July 2016, 07:32
Got verniers, get me beer.


As opposed to Stolen Rum

On tour stays on tour...:msn-wink:

Henk
9th July 2016, 07:58
On tour stays on tour...:msn-wink:

Bad ideas are bad ideas not matter where they occur. I should have known better, sup reg 17, no hard liquor.

TZ350
7th August 2016, 13:57
The thing that cracks me up a bit is that all these rule changes always seem to be suggested by people who aren't part of actually running the events, you know the folk that would be expected to enforce said rules. It's not like we have a surplus of volunteers to help run things at the moment without making things more difficult to work out and police.

Agreed, simple rules are best. Instead of the complexity of capacity's and over bore allowances maybe just a simple list of maximum sizes for different engine configurations, 2 valve, 4 valve, air cooled 2T etc.