Rule change submissions close 1 March 2016 - be in to win.

[TZ350]

It is an over size rule so the motor would have to start out as a 100cc or 150cc ?, just building a 110cc or a 158cc is against the rules is it not? After talking to a couple of people at the track yesterday ,they had similar feelings any thoughts on this.


I agree building an engine to max oversize straight off is a grey area that probably needs addressing along with other issues like, what size is a 24mm carb equivalent really? and there are some who would like totally open fuel rules like they had in the original Bucket racing days.

Naturally my interest is the 24mm carb equivalent rule and how it should be measured and should it be updated to specifically include EFI or done away with all together.

Rule change submissions close 1st March.

Input on the 24mm rule or any Bucket racing rule for that matter that interests others would be welcome.

[TZ350]

The measurement should be square mm, which is what the "equivalent" alludes to equivalent of 24mm carburettor is 452mm2, I like the idea of it being measured within the carb body. Actually a definition of a carb is also important, in this age of efi

To me a "total inlet orifice area of 452mm2" looks a better definition than "24mm carb equivalent".

[Grumph]

To me a "total inlet orifice area of 452mm2" looks a better definition than "24mm carb equivalent".

With a rider that "for the purposes of measurement, carburettor air bleed jets and orifices are to be ignored"

Just trying to avoid arguments when someone's carb measures up exactly and a bright cunt says "what about the air bleeds?"

[jasonu]

a bright cunt ?"

Not sure that will be a problem...

[Yow Ling]

To me a "total inlet orifice area of 452mm2" looks a better definition than "24mm carb equivalent".

measured at the position of the original carburettor

[Grumph]

measured at the position of the original carburettor

Oh god NO...

[Yow Ling]

Oh god NO...

Actually just get rid of the rule, if you just go with the 450mm2 restrictor thing you may as well not have a rule if there is a plenum between the restrictor and the 36mm butterfly, then that will allow open carbs on 110cc watercooled , 2 problems solved in one go

[Grumph]

My suggestion

Two stroke air-cooled engines may be used to a maximum size including rebores of 130.5cc.
Providing that, at some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2.
For the purposes of measurement, carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.
The point for measurement shall maintain the restricted diameter for a minimum length in the tract(s) of at least 2.0mm.

[TALLIS]

Regarding the 24mm carb sizing. I would think that it has been ok with the current rules as is, I would of thought if there was a problem; or is a problem, someone would of put a protest in. (I know it's not in the Sprint of buckets to protest, but I know first hand it happens for much less) maybe it's a good chance to clarify, more of interest is the efi sizing... but an efi 2 stoke bucket, that's crazy talk. :sweatdrop

[speedpro]

I like Grumph's wording but I also think there is no need for a change.

We all know what's required or allowed. There has been no huge leap in technology which has resulted in the rule, or the intent, becoming a mockery. The only fly in the ointment is FI but if you got real picky the rule actually restricts F4 2Ts over 104cc to carburetion - no FI allowed.

The rule says - "F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburetor" - cut & pasted from the MOMS.

Of course the clever dicks will go on about how it doesn't say anywhere that FI is NOT allowed and they would be right. However the rule is very clear in that having a carburetor is a restriction. The FI aspect hasn't become a reality on the track yet. Certainly not to the point of being regularly competitive.

[Grumph]

Carburation is the act of mixing fuel and air so that rule as it stands does include injection.
If you want it to refer to carburettors only then at least a comma after carburation is required and preferably more for clarification.

[Grumph]

Regarding the 24mm carb sizing. I would think that it has been ok with the current rules as is, I would of thought if there was a problem; or is a problem, someone would of put a protest in. (I know it's not in the Sprint of buckets to protest, but I know first hand it happens for much less) maybe it's a good chance to clarify, more of interest is the efi sizing... but an efi 2 stoke bucket, that's crazy talk. :sweatdrop

I agree in principle, but MNZ were 'kind' enough to go on record with a definition which does not accord with how the rule has been interpreted for decades...

[TZ350]

... but an efi 2 stoke bucket, that's crazy talk. :sweatdrop

Certainly nearly driven me crazy learning what to do ...... :laugh:

But tackling new chalanges is the Bucket way.

319293319294319292

EFI 2T, three injectors, Throttle body with TPS and dyno chart with runs at different throttle openings.

I have found the trick is to use split injection for high and low power and the smallest low power injector possible because that gives the widest range of tunability for closed or trailing throttle under 30% TP (throttle position).

The low power runs on the graph show that I have not got the nearly closed throttle fuelling anywhere good enough to be useful on the track yet.

319292

100% TP = 27hp
50% TP = 24hp
40% TP = 20hp
30% TP = 12hp
(TP = throttle position)

From 60% to a 100% TP typically (for any engine) there is not a great change in power, 25 - 27hp, a 2 hp change and consequent fuel demand in this case. The tricky fueling problems are all in the area between 0 to 40% TP, which is a 20hp change or ten times the variation in fuel demand as 60 to 100% TP on my EFI engine.

So you need a primary injector that can be turned right down to next to nothing and ramped right up to 50% of the total fuel demand. The secondary big injector, actually the two side injectors fired together as a pair in my case need to be larger but their on time does not vary nearly as much as the single smaller injector needs too.

Hopefully get the new bike finished soon so I can get back onto developing the EFI thing.

So there we have it, a 2T EFI Bucket wannabe.

[TZ350]

Actually just get rid of the rule,

Personally I agree.


I like Grumph's wording but I also think there is no need for a change.


I agree about Grumph's wording and maybe no change is required if the rule sort of covers EFI.


Carburation is the act of mixing fuel and air so that rule as it stands does include injection.

[jasonu]

Actually just get rid of the rule, if you just go with the 450mm2 restrictor thing you may as well not have a rule if there is a plenum between the restrictor and the 36mm butterfly, then that will allow open carbs on 110cc watercooled , 2 problems solved in one go

I thought there was no carb restriction on 110cc water cooled 2T.

[TZ350]

I thought there was no carb restriction on 110cc water cooled 2T.

As it stands, the rules restrict anything 2T over 104cc to a 24mm carb equivalent.

[Bert]

As it stands, the rules restrict anything 2T over 104cc to a 24mm carb equivalent.

Yip, that's how I read it too, but... Championship class specs under appendix a - fails to define that limit... Or any limit and carb size...Thus under scrutiny the rules conflict each other.
Yay for the rewrite. Happy to help.

[TZ350]

Yay for the rewrite. Happy to help.

Great .....

[mr bucketracer]

I thought there was no carb restriction on 110cc water cooled 2T.yip 24mm , should make it 22mm

[jasonu]

Yip, that's how I read it too, but... Championship class specs under appendix a - fails to define that limit... Or any limit and carb size...Thus under scrutiny the rules conflict each other.
Yay for the rewrite. Happy to help.

Hey anyone from the MNZ rule writing department that happens to read this thread, YOU ARE A BUNCH OF FUCKWITS!!!

[mr bucketracer]

Hey anyone from the MNZ rule writing department that happens to read this thread, YOU ARE A BUNCH OF FUCKWITS!!!buckets should go free lance:banana:

[Grumph]

Hey anyone from the MNZ rule writing department that happens to read this thread, YOU ARE A BUNCH OF FUCKWITS!!!


That would be the rules amendment department....The rulebook as it stands is a hodge podge of amended and added to rules and sections which don't make any logical sense now.

The majority of section 10 - if it's still called that - is still how I rewrote it in the 80's. But amendments are there too. Nothing is static, bikes are a moving target...

The only rule which seems to apply is the rule of unintended consequences.

[Grumph]

buckets should go free lance:banana:

Go and talk to ACC about a levy amount. One accident causing a hospital visit and the whole lot is gone.

I'm told that the whole dirt scene outside MNZ umbrella which was flourishing is now dying due to OSH concerns.

[mr bucketracer]

Go and talk to ACC about a levy amount. One accident causing a hospital visit and the whole lot is gone.

I'm told that the whole dirt scene outside MNZ umbrella which was flourishing is now dying due to OSH concerns.ok bring back smoke advertiseing then (-; and ban rugby

[Bert]

That would be the rules amendment department....The rulebook as it stands is a hodge podge of amended and added to rules and sections which don't make any logical sense now.

The majority of section 10 - if it's still called that - is still how I rewrote it in the 80's. But amendments are there too. Nothing is static, bikes are a moving target...

The only rule which seems to apply is the rule of unintended consequences.

That's a fair point Grumph: however on this version they have attempted to seperate (maybe consolidate) parts that are common across the classes (fuel, championship classes etc.) and really made a shit job of it.
I certainty understand it's a pig of a job writing standards and rules...
But rule number one - if you have to repeat something make sure it's the same....:facepalm:

I liked the pre2000 versions, much more workable and understandable.


ok bring back smoke advertiseing then (-; and ban rugby
i recon we chase coffee manufactures/importers. I'm sure I'd fund at least two bikes per season...

[sidecar bob]

Why is there a carb size rule? It's not like carbs are a big ticket item.
Surely making carbs open would very quickly sort out what size carb is best for maximum performance & the playing field would be level again in no time & one less complex & potentially variable rule to police.
Pre '82 senior has open carb size & we each have our own favourite recipie that works best for us.

[Yow Ling]

Why is there a carb size rule? It's not like carbs are a big ticket item.
Surely making carbs open would very quickly sort out what size carb is best for maximum performance & the playing field would be level again in no time & one less complex & potentially variable rule to police.
Pre '82 senior has open carb size & we each have our own favourite recipie that works best for us.

but if you had pre 82 aircooled with a capacity limit of say1300cc with 30mm carbs and a pre82 watercooled with a 900cc limit with unlimited carbs it would be a different story, in buckets case its trading extra capacity with shit thermal stability against 20% less capacity with no carb restrictions and thermally stable engines

[sidecar bob]

but if you had pre 82 aircooled with a capacity limit of say1300cc with 30mm carbs and a pre82 watercooled with a 900cc limit with unlimited carbs it would be a different story, in buckets case its trading extra capacity with shit thermal stability against 20% less capacity with no carb restrictions and thermally stable engines

Oh, chur. Weld a washer over their tailpipes all the same size? :msn-wink:

[mr bucketracer]

That's a fair point Grumph: however on this version they have attempted to seperate (maybe consolidate) parts that are common across the classes (fuel, championship classes etc.) and really made a shit job of it.
I certainty understand it's a pig of a job writing standards and rules...
But rule number one - if you have to repeat something make sure it's the same....:facepalm:

I liked the pre2000 versions, much more workable and understandable.


i recon we chase coffee manufactures/importers. I'm sure I'd fund at least two bikes per season...prombly right ,coffee has taken over in are lives , not mine but must be somthing out there for road racing, pre 97 buckets would be good , just before the fxrs and got to prove it was bucketerised then lol i know this guy with a shed load of old buckets

[Grumph]

That's a fair point Grumph: however on this version they have attempted to seperate (maybe consolidate) parts that are common across the classes (fuel, championship classes etc.) and really made a shit job of it.
I certainty understand it's a pig of a job writing standards and rules...
But rule number one - if you have to repeat something make sure it's the same....:facepalm:

I liked the pre2000 versions, much more workable and understandable.

So did I. I reckon that if you look at a class rules whether Buckets or posties or sidecars, everything you need to know about rules specific to that class - including fuel - should be in that chapter.
The idea of the old section 10 technical was that those rules dictated the basics of building a race bike safely. Any variations or additions went in the class chapters.
I find it bloody difficult to find anything now.

[jasonu]

buckets should go free lance:banana:

Which cunt from the MNZ said Buckets is a 'self regulating class'?

If there was someone willing to do the leg work (and that's the hard part), a break away from the MNZ would probably be a good thing. It is not like Buckets doesn't generate plenty of cash...

[mr bucketracer]

Which cunt from the MNZ said Buckets is a 'self regulating class'?

If there was someone willing to do the leg work (and that's the hard part), a break away from the MNZ would probably be a good thing. It is not like Buckets doesn't generate plenty of cash...or send mnz a bill for getting so meany great riders out there :devil2:

[jasonu]

Why is there a carb size rule? It's not like carbs are a big ticket item.
Surely making carbs open would very quickly sort out what size carb is best for maximum performance & the playing field would be level again in no time & one less complex & potentially variable rule to police.
Pre '82 senior has open carb size & we each have our own favourite recipie that works best for us.

Not havin a go but have you ever been or are you directly involved with the class?

[mr bucketracer]

Not havin a go but have you ever or are you directly involved with the class?he raced the fastist bucket sidecar in new zealand:laugh:

[kel]

Well I want to go after aftermarket cylinders.
All good and well if non OEM parts are the same or equal to the OEM parts but when you can buy an aftermarket cylinder that only shares the stud pattern of the original cylinder then that's just (am I really going to type this :facepalm:) not in the spirit of bucket racing. Buckets is (in part) about innovative engine building, specifically turning a non competition engine into something worth racing. Whether as simple as my approach of cut, port, epoxy, or GPR's building their own cylinder out of a block of aluminium, we push the boundary's of our non competition motors. This Derbi cup buy off the shelf bolt up performance is not buckets

Let me expand a little on this. While I don't want to reignite the MX85 debate we already have the equivalent in buckets. If I had a Derbi 50 I could buy an aftermarket multi plate complete clutch kit, a close ratio gear set, a multi port race orientated cylinder (label it sport, competition or racing, I don't care as its not from a Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro or Go Kart motor), super fancy cranks, special heads, etc, etc. And guess what they come in 110cc kits!

So what do we think, something along the lines of "aftermarket parts must be the same or equal in construction to OEM parts" Help me out here please

[Grumph]

To still allow innovation I'd word it something along the lines of "commercially available aftermarket replacement parts shall be identical to the OE parts they replace."
Bloody internet purchasing has changed the landscape.

[jasonu]

he raced the fastist bucket sidecar in new zealand:laugh:

Then I guess I'll shut my mouth for a short time...

[kel]

"commercially available aftermarket replacement parts shall be identical to the OE parts they replace."
I think that would do it :niceone:

[Bert]

So did I. I reckon that if you look at a class rules whether Buckets or posties or sidecars, everything you need to know about rules specific to that class - including fuel - should be in that chapter.
The idea of the old section 10 technical was that those rules dictated the basics of building a race bike safely. Any variations or additions went in the class chapters.
I find it bloody difficult to find anything now.

100% Agree. At minimum you need to read three different chapters (to obtain little snips of information relevant to your class)...

I really struggle with my juniors, explaining which bits they need to focus on. Ok you could say read everything but: they don't need too.

Keep the General Technical chapter. Class chapters and if they must do a championship chapter.
Table common rules and cut-paste across all the class chapters. Common structure easy to use...;)

[TZ350]

... in buckets case its trading extra capacity with shit thermal stability against 20% less capacity with no carb restrictions and thermally stable engines

125 air cooled vis 100 water cooled, the 20% difference sort of made it worthwhile persevering with air cooling.

Now that 110 water cooled is possible, a 125 air cooled engine starts to get pointless, even at its max oversize of 130cc the now 15% capacity advantage is not enough to make the extra air cooled engine capacity attractive.

As Husaberg once pointed out, the 125's air cooling with its shit thermal stability was a bigger restriction on power than a 24mm carb.

319306

Speedpros 100 at 30hp with its water cooled head made more power than my 29hp 125 air cooled in a back to back test.

So maybe water cooled 2T's should have the 24mm carb restriction and air cooled 2T's are open.

Just a thought, based on evidence.

To limit the arms race it would be logical to restrict the water cooled 2T's to a 24mm carb equivalent and let the air coolers have any size carb they like because getting rid of 30hp's worth of waste heat is the air cooler's true performance limiting feature.

Not saying I wan't that, just putting it out there.

[TZ350]

And then there is the 20mm carb restriction rule for 100cc 4T's in F5.

It is probably a rule that could be usefully dropped.

In the face of 14+ hp Derbie/Aprilia 50's with their off the shelf cylinders and other hotup bits it makes no sense to limit an old 8hp Honda 100 to a 20mm carb, that you can't easily get anyway.

[jasonu]

125 air cooled vis 100 water cooled, the 20% difference sort of made it worthwhile persevering with air cooling.

Now that 110 water cooled is possible, a 125 air cooled engine starts to get pointless, even at its max oversize of 130cc the now 15% capacity advantage is not enough to make the extra air cooled engine capacity attractive.

As Husaberg once pointed out, the 125's air cooling with its shit thermal stability was a bigger restriction on power than a 24mm carb.

319306

Speedpros 100 at 30hp with its water cooled head made more power than my 29hp 125 air cooled in a back to back test.

So maybe water cooled 2T's should have the 24mm carb restriction and air cooled 2T's are open.

Just a thought, based on evidence.

To limit the arms race it would be logical to restrict the water cooled 2T's to a 24mm carb equivalent and let the air coolers have any size carb they like because getting rid of 30hp's worth of waste heat is the air cooler's true performance limiting feature.

Not saying I wan't that, just putting it out there.

But you keep pointing out that the carb size isn't the 125cc air cooled motors limiting factor so why are you now intent on getting rid of the 24mm restriction and adding that same restriction to 100cc water cooled motors?

[TZ350]

But you keep pointing out that the carb size isn't the 125cc air cooled motors limiting factor so why are you now intent on getting rid of the 24mm restriction and adding that same restriction to 100cc water cooled motors?

Read the bottom line. ""Not saying I wan't that, just putting it out there."" the evidence that is.

[jasonu]

Read the bottom line. ""Not saying I wan't that, just putting it out there."" the evidence that is.

Mate this is Kiwi Biker where you read only part of the post, come to the wrong conclusion then make a fool out of yourself by slagging the OP for something he didn't actually say...

[TZ350]

Sounds fair ..... :laugh:

[richban]

Let me expand a little on this. While I don't want to reignite the MX85 debate we already have the equivalent in buckets. If I had a Derbi 50 I could buy an aftermarket multi plate complete clutch kit, a close ratio gear set, a multi port race orientated cylinder (label it sport, competition or racing, I don't care as its not from a Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro or Go Kart motor), super fancy cranks, special heads, etc, etc. And guess what they come in 110cc kits!

So what do we think, something along the lines of "aftermarket parts must be the same or equal in construction to OEM parts" Help me out here please

Ok ok. I will bite. Tell me how the above hurts the sport? Explain to me how this really hurts the sport. "THE SPORT" as in motorcycle racing. Not fucking about in your shed. I think the best change that should be submitted is open mods and capacity restricted. I think they might get submitted this year. :woohoo: F4. Water cooled 2 strokes 104cc and under. Air cooled 2 strokes 126cc and under. Water cooled 4 valve 4 strokes 152cc and under. Air cooled 4 strokes 170cc and under. Air cool 2 valve 4 strokes 192cc and under. F5 52cc open 2 strokes 104cc open 4 strokes.


Fuck yeah. Lets do it. Who's with me?

[TZ350]

I think the best change that should be submitted is open mods and capacity restricted. Fuck yeah. Lets do it. Who's with me?

Would that exclude the super/turbo charged 2T and 4T's?

I am for anything that simplifies the rules and encourages unlimited innovation.

[Grumph]

First rule of rule changes is - Don't obsolete what you've already got. With stated capacities tweaked to match existing limits - and within the existing "non competition origins" of the engines, why not.

[TZ350]

Water cooled 4 valve 4 strokes 152cc and under. Air cooled 4 strokes 170cc and under. Air cool 2 valve 4 strokes 192cc and under.

Good idea, opens up a whole range of options, you have covered air and water cooled but where does the Oil cooled 4T's like the FXR150 fit into this?

319310319311

Suzuki FXR150 SACS (suzuki advanced cooling system).

[richban]

Good idea, opens up a whole range of options, but where does the Oil cooled 4T's like the FXR150 fit into this?

170 cc.

The numbers need to be worked out so with proper tuning the bikes will reach around the 30hp mark. But they also need to not kill off the current bikes. Too build a 27hp fxr 158cc is not easy at all. So thats close to 175hp per litre from that bike. So make that a 170 and you should be close to 30. But you will still have to spend cash on cams porting and exhaust design to get there... The people in this discussion know full well that there would be advantages and disadvantages for each configuration. It would not change much at all. Turners should be happy. And racers probably don't give a fuck.

There could be more bums on seats and growth for Motocycle road racing in NZ.


As for turbo and super charged stuff. Well I don't really know enough about that stuff. To stop silly hp and unnecessary deaths! :sweatdrop F5 capacity rules apply to turbos and supercharged bikes. And yes NOS in forbiden before you ask. fuel appendix blah blah blah.

[kel]

"THE SPORT" as in motorcycle racing. Not fucking about in your shed. I think the best change that should be submitted is open mods and capacity restricted.
troll ....

[jasonu]

Ok ok. I will bite. Tell me how the above hurts the sport? Explain to me how this really hurts the sport. "THE SPORT" as in motorcycle racing. Not fucking about in your shed. I think the best change that should be submitted is open mods and capacity restricted. I think they might get submitted this year. :woohoo: F4. Water cooled 2 strokes 104cc and under. Air cooled 2 strokes 126cc and under. Water cooled 4 valve 4 strokes 152cc and under. Air cooled 4 strokes 170cc and under. Air cool 2 valve 4 strokes 192cc and under. F5 52cc open 2 strokes 104cc open 4 strokes.


Fuck yeah. Lets do it. Who's with me?

104cc 2 strove vs 192cc 4 stroke... not sure about that.

[TZ350]

Turners should be happy. And racers probably don't give a fuck. There could be more bums on seats and growth for Motorcycle road racing in NZ.

I like ideas where it is win - win - win for everyone. Because it is great for growth.

[richban]

I like ideas where it is win - win - win for everyone. Because it is great for growth.

Yeah Me 2. Anyway My last post for a while. No I won't submit this rule! Maybe someone will. Have fun.

[TZ350]

Bert where are you ........

[Sketchy_Racer]

Ok ok. I will bite. Tell me how the above hurts the sport? Explain to me how this really hurts the sport. "THE SPORT" as in motorcycle racing. Not fucking about in your shed. I think the best change that should be submitted is open mods and capacity restricted. I think they might get submitted this year. :woohoo: F4. Water cooled 2 strokes 104cc and under. Air cooled 2 strokes 126cc and under. Water cooled 4 valve 4 strokes 152cc and under. Air cooled 4 strokes 170cc and under. Air cool 2 valve 4 strokes 192cc and under. F5 52cc open 2 strokes 104cc open 4 strokes.


Fuck yeah. Lets do it. Who's with me?

Best concept yet. How simple is that to police.

Leaves the tinkerers to carry on making cool shit but gets rid of all bollocks ambiguous rules.

Just remember rules are bad, the more rules you have the more bullshit there is and the less likely people can be arsed dealing with the shit and will just not bother.

[TZ350]

If it can be fleshed out a bit and if enough people are enthusiastic about it we should put it to MNZ.

[seymour14]

Ok ok. I will bite. Tell me how the above hurts the sport? Explain to me how this really hurts the sport. "THE SPORT" as in motorcycle racing. Not fucking about in your shed. I think the best change that should be submitted is open mods and capacity restricted. I think they might get submitted this year. :woohoo: F4. Water cooled 2 strokes 104cc and under. Air cooled 2 strokes 126cc and under. Water cooled 4 valve 4 strokes 152cc and under. Air cooled 4 strokes 170cc and under. Air cool 2 valve 4 strokes 192cc and under. F5 52cc open 2 strokes 104cc open 4 strokes.


Fuck yeah. Lets do it. Who's with me?

I like that to, especially if water cooled two strokes are put back that little bit, they already have the best chance of any of the bikes, we opened a massive incentive by going up to 110cc.

Those capacities look workable, and keeping the other crap about modifications out of the way just makes it easier to police.

Simple is usually best...

[speedpro]

Makes me laugh. All this chatter about changing the rules to make different configuration bikes competitive, and, I'll call it "axe grinding", about certain bikes with European sourced engines and also how watercooled 2Ts have such an advantage. The European engine bike makes a whopping 24hp, less than a few others at Mt Wgtn at the moment, and gives nearly everybody a good ass-whooping. The lap record, again at Mt Wgtn, has recently been held by the aforementioned bike or an Aprilia chassis with an MB100 aircooled engine making a huge 22hp. Okay, both are 2Ts, but the FXR brigade is not far behind and there are a couple of extremely fast 125cc 2Ts as well. The lap records are held by the fastest riders who could probably go even faster on a more powerful bike. Lap records must surely be a good measure of where things are at performance wise and they are saying the rider is of more significance.
We also have a European engine 50cc 2T bike doing 30s, or less, can't remember. On top of that we now have Gary on the John Connor Honda XL100 also in the 30s. You couldn't get 2 much more different bikes and yet it will be only them and Tim, if he turns up, battling at the front of F5. Funny thing is both those F5 bikes would be competitive in F4, not because of the bike/engine but because of the riders.

Personally I think there is some worthwhile tinkering to be done with the 4T capacity limits/how many valves/cooling scheme. I wonder what bikes the suggested changes would allow and who would be in a position to make them competitive.

Otherwise, if it isn't broken, and I'm convinced it isn't, then don't fix it.

Just because someone chooses to go down a different path to you doesn't mean the rules need to be changed to make your path the only one to be taken.

[chrisc]

Agreed ^

The problem with people pointing at other peoples bikes and saying "see it's faster, it has an advantage because of X" is that there is such a large spread of rider weight, skill etc. I don't think the rules are causing the problem here at all, regardless of how I feel about how they match up technically.

I personally think that Nathaniel would have the exactly the same effect riding any of the other pointy end A grade bikes. He's light, done a million laps of Mt Welly, and a very skilled consistent as hell rider. Rod's bike probably falls into a similar category. He's currently doing 30s Mt Welly laps. Which isn't far off what Gary did on his bloody 100cc 4 stroke F5 bike! You still have to ride what ever you build. It helps Rod also weighs as much as a t-shirt.

I'm unsure if the so called 'arms race' is real or just standard Kiwibiker talk, or just perceived as being a real thing because of a 110cc rule change. Bleh

[F5 Dave]

Your post kinda sums it up Mike.

[jasonu]

Makes me laugh. All this chatter about changing the rules to make different configuration bikes competitive, and, I'll call it "axe grinding", about certain bikes with European sourced engines and also how watercooled 2Ts have such an advantage. The European engine bike makes a whopping 24hp, less than a few others at Mt Wgtn at the moment, and gives nearly everybody a good ass-whooping. The lap record, again at Mt Wgtn, has recently been held by the aforementioned bike or an Aprilia chassis with an MB100 aircooled engine making a huge 22hp. Okay, both are 2Ts, but the FXR brigade is not far behind and there are a couple of extremely fast 125cc 2Ts as well. The lap records are held by the fastest riders who could probably go even faster on a more powerful bike. Lap records must surely be a good measure of where things are at performance wise and they are saying the rider is of more significance.
We also have a European engine 50cc 2T bike doing 30s, or less, can't remember. On top of that we now have Gary on the John Connor Honda XL100 also in the 30s. You couldn't get 2 much more different bikes and yet it will be only them and Tim, if he turns up, battling at the front of F5. Funny thing is both those F5 bikes would be competitive in F4, not because of the bike/engine but because of the riders.

Personally I think there is some worthwhile tinkering to be done with the 4T capacity limits/how many valves/cooling scheme. I wonder what bikes the suggested changes would allow and who would be in a position to make them competitive.

Otherwise, if it isn't broken, and I'm convinced it isn't, then don't fix it.

Just because someone chooses to go down a different path to you doesn't mean the rules need to be changed to make your path the only one to be taken.

Wot he said!!!!!

[F5 Dave]

And then there is the 20mm carb restriction rule for 100cc 4T's in F5.

It is probably a rule that could be usefully dropped.

In the face of 14+ hp Derbie/Aprilia 50's with their off the shelf cylinders and other hotup bits it makes no sense to limit an old 8hp Honda 100 to a 20mm carb, that you can't easily get anyway.
Well to be fair a 2:1 ratio has again and again been shown to be unfair in MX and road racing.

If that was 2 valve hondas OK. But there's a heap of pit bike tuning stuff that gets pretty serious if you spend the money. Or destroke an FXR. A 24hp tune would become a 16hp engine, maybe hope the carb restrictions reduce that a little. Also large valve head for a 100 and lower piston speed. A 27hp tune would be 18hp.

But you also get a better spread with the 4 stroke. Don't just compare peak power outputs.

[TZ350]

If that was 2 valve hondas OK. But you also get a better spread with the 4 stroke. Don't just compare peak power outputs.

Yes, Honda 100, hadn't thought about other options....:blank:

And agree hp isn't everything, spread and ease of use play a big part and explains the FXR's success in F4. Also it is why people should not get too hung up on bigger 2T hp numbers in F4.

[TZ350]

I'm unsure if the so called 'arms race' is real or just standard Kiwibiker talk, or just perceived as being a real thing because of a 110cc rule change.

Kel and I talked to day and agreed that probably the only thing that would happen if Nathanial rode Kels 28hp 125, would be that he would just kick our arses harder and win by a greater margin and if we rode his 22hp bike our chances would probably not have improved.

I had been made aware that there was serious talk about limiting the arms race, it was all hush hush secret squirrel stuff. If it is true, the way I see it is, we get three choices.

(1) Take what comes.
(2) Object and shoot down if you can whatever is proposed because it does not suit you.
(3) Get proactive and float some ideas of our own and see what comes of it, even if it is maintaining the status quo or tidying up an issue like what size is a 24mm carb realy.

If you have not been proactive then come the 1st of March you have forgone the chance to improve things and only have options 1 and 2 left.

Unless you want to take what you're given then a bit of a group chat like we are doing here, before submissions close might be a good idea.

That way anything sensible can be proposed as a rule change and/or intelligent submissions can be made in April on any "for the good of the sport" personal agenda proposals that some secret squirrel group may be trying to quietly slip through.

Forewarned about what we are all thinking is forearmed and our best chance of keeping it sensible and the way we as a group think it should be.

Don't be shy about floating an idea because you will only get flamed, have your eyes gouged out with hot spoons, stabbed with pitchforks and burnt at the stake KiwiBiker style by people you enjoy as friends .... see nothing to be shy about at all. :laugh:

[TALLIS]

I would say... if you have a problem with anyone else's bike who is "unfair" build one yourself, leave the rules as is. If you want to be a cock sucker and by barrels from Europe, well we can all play at that game, so its no unfair. Why change the rules? look at whats out there, see whats best (in your mind), build one. Then ride the thing and win! not an easy feat, but doable. I just got toweled today, by the next big thing......

[timg]

My suggestion

Two stroke air-cooled engines may be used to a maximum size including rebores of 130.5cc.
Providing that, at some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2.
For the purposes of measurement, carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.
The point for measurement shall maintain the restricted diameter for a minimum length in the tract(s) of at least 2.0mm.


I would say... if you have a problem with anyone else's bike who is "unfair" build one yourself, leave the rules as is. If you want to be a cock sucker and by barrels from Europe, well we can all play at that game, so its no unfair. Why change the rules? look at whats out there, see whats best (in your mind), build one. Then ride the thing and win! not an easy feat, but doable. I just got toweled today, by the next big thing......

I don't want no changes, except clarification of the 24mm carb restriction which MNZ have recently confused even more :pinch: We've all made our choice of machinery based on our needs, abilities, budgets, pet prejudices, likes and dislikes. There will never be a completely level playing field. Both 2T & 4T will continue to develop under the present rules as will the one off 'special' engines being worked on by Sketchy, GPR and others. It's working - don't break it. :oi-grr:

[F5 Dave]

Yeah. Get a bit more worried about where you are going to buy tyres from when the 125s disappear, maybe as early as next year.

[husaberg]

Ok ok. I will bite. Tell me how the above hurts the sport? Explain to me how this really hurts the sport. "THE SPORT" as in motorcycle racing. Not fucking about in your shed. I think the best change that should be submitted is open mods and capacity restricted. I think they might get submitted this year. :woohoo: F4. Water cooled 2 strokes 104cc and under. Air cooled 2 strokes 126cc and under. Water cooled 4 valve 4 strokes 152cc and under. Air cooled 4 strokes 170cc and under. Air cool 2 valve 4 strokes 192cc and under. F5 52cc open 2 strokes 104cc open 4 strokes.


Fuck yeah. Lets do it. Who's with me?

Rich call me suspicious, but please define what how a FXR fits into this:bleh:



Why is there a carb size rule? It's not like carbs are a big ticket item.
Surely making carbs open would very quickly sort out what size carb is best for maximum performance & the playing field would be level again in no time & one less complex & potentially variable rule to police.
Pre '82 senior has open carb size & we each have our own favourite recipie that works best for us.

The carb size restriction is a form of restriction designed to argument the increased engine size of the air cooled engine. remember the rules were originally formulated for only up to 100cc 2 strokes and 125 four strokes, (plus an allowance for few rebores)
they were then changed a few times to allow the 125 2 strokes (air-cooled only with additional carb restriction) plus then the GL145 then the FXR150's

[TZ350]

I don't want no changes, except clarification of the 24mm carb restriction which MNZ have recently confused even more :pinch:

Yep, agreed about changes but clarification of the 24 thing is the bit that interests me too.

[speedpro]

Buying bits from Europe seems to be a bit of a cause for concern. What about FI from Taiwan or Lectron carbs from the USA or Honda RS125 chassis' from Oz? Maybe there needs to be a rule about buying stuff only from here in NZ. Or maybe an annual $ limit on overseas purchases, receipts to be sighted, limit to be inclusive of GST and all import duties and taxes, and to vary from country to country. TPPA would need to be taken into consideration. Or we could go the Aussie route and have homologated motorcycles. Not standard production then not allowed, production road going or trail / farm bike chassis being the only options. All rules that make about as much sense as some of those proposed by the axe grinders amongst us.

[Bert]

Descending into axe grinding....

As I see it (having not been around as long a Speedpro, F5Dave and a few other). I watched the class change generally for the better.

In lifting of the fourstroke capacity from 125-145-150odd changed this for the best (else it is unlikely we would talking now about buckets - FXRs made the class)...

Introduction of the 125 air cooled twostrokes - really didn't add anything to the twostroke numbers - not really sure why - maybe as the FXRs were just easier for the current gen.

People tinkered, GP machinery came up (frames, wheels etc.) all within the existing rules. Engines went in and the class changed a little bit (closer to a full blown race class). Home engineering started again and other cool stuff started to fall out of the woodwork (frames, significant Hp increases for four strokes within rule constraints). Some very cool efforts and results have been made on two strokes as well and shared with the masses - all within the constraints of the rules.

Access to international parts. Grey zone but not limited by the rules - Game changers,mprimarily cost and availability. Significant engine performance could be gained by more people... Then enter 50cc upgrade/big bore kits. Cleaver and hats off to those that took advantage under the rules.
Championships have been won by good fit riders on good machines (this is the general accepted result in Motorsport) - it's a combination: Mikes comments earlier on around lap times in Auckland provides context to this comment.

Rules...
It's been left by our governing body to be self policing, most of us whom contribute to this - generally have left it as it is controlled by the general Sprit of the class. So there can't really be any bitching and moaning: as it should have been addressed early on.

2016 rules fuckup... Our governing body has attempted to clean up the wider rules documentation for motorcycle racing and in doing so (while introducing some new rules) have made a bloody mess that needs cleaning up ASAP - any club running the GP needs to consider supplementary rules to correct for the errors/discrepancies or hope that the spirt is stronger than the individuals...

Rewriting current rules. Before anything else gets added I'd suggest that the current intended rules get cleaned up into a workable set that can be in forced (that matches the sprit). Then consideration is needed to mop up the grey areas (with consideration to status quo). This may well require the introduction of a new class (covering almost GP spec machinery) and more classical intended classes (more production like class).

[gav]

To still allow innovation I'd word it something along the lines of "commercially available aftermarket replacement parts shall be identical to the OE parts they replace."
Bloody internet purchasing has changed the landscape.
So does this include Camshafts, exhausts, pistons, carbs etc as well ?

[TZ350]

Buying bits from Europe seems to be a bit of a cause for concern. What about FI from Taiwan or Lectron carbs from the USA or Honda RS125 chassis' from Oz?

Purchasing over the Net is so quick and reliable and anyone can do it, it has become a routine part of modern life. The only question is the legitimacy of what is purchased.

[TZ350]

Rewriting current rules. Before anything else gets added I'd suggest that the current intended rules get cleaned up into a workable set that can be enforced (that matches the sprit).

What is the spirit of Bucket Racing? I expect it is a bit different for different people and that is one of its beauties. Before trying to tidy up the rules, maybe we could start by expressing what the spirit of Bucket Racing means to us as individuals.

For me it's the ethos of unrestrained but affordable development within some basic rules.

[TZ350]

319376319377

Back to the 24mm carb equivalent thing. This is my EFI throttle body. The bellmouth and throttle spigot onto the rotary valve cover which has the 24mm equivalent choke or 452mm2 area machined into it.

The present rule leaves anything that is not a standard motorcycle slide carburettor in a grey place.


My suggestion.

An edited version of Grumphs suggestion.

""Two stroke engines may be used to a maximum size including rebores of 110cc and two stroke air-cooled engines to a maximum size including rebores of 130.5cc.

Providing that, at some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2.

For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.

Two strokes of 104cc or less are unrestricted in the inlet tract.""

Ok not perfect, but it tries to better define 24mm equivalent (452mm2) and allow for EFI and pumper and other carbs with a butterfly throttle plate.

[kel]

Buying bits from Europe seems to be a bit of a cause for concern. What about FI from Taiwan or Lectron carbs from the USA or Honda RS125 chassis' from Oz?

The concern is based on the premise of buckets being "non competition engines". The rules were written before such times that you could buy over the counter performance parts for your non competition engine (and we are not JUST talking cylinders). If everyone is so OK with full on little race bikes built with over the counter performance parts then lets go full open as Rich has suggested.
Not sure why you keep harping on about "axe to grind".

[Grumph]

Works for me. Now do what i can't do and print out the existing regs and work out what it's going to replace or change. And the rule numbering.

remember that the finished remit has to make sense in terms of what's in the book now and how it has to change.
Also write a short justification to go with the remit - then find a club to submit it.....

That's if the restrictions are to stay at all.

[TZ350]

Not sure why you keep harping on about "axe to grind".

319388

An ax to grind.

[TZ350]

Current MNZ rule 24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.


Works for me, print out the existing regs and work out what it's going to replace or change. Remember that the finished remit has to make sense in terms of what's in the book now and how it has to change.

Proposed MNZ rule 24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc at some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored. F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.

PS I have just realised I have used the 2014 version of rule 24.2 so a little out of date but you get the idea.

[husaberg]

Current MNZ rule 24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.



Proposed MNZ rule 24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc at some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored. F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.

if you intend of reviewing the whole portion the S needs to be clarified.

[TZ350]

319390

Origins of the English idiom "an axe to grind"

[TZ350]

if you intend of reviewing the whole portion the S needs to be clarified.

Which "S" please explain.

[husaberg]

319390

Origins of the English idiom "an axe to grind"

Note the term is normally pointed at people that are not that sharp.:2thumbsup


Which "S" please explain.
Current MNZ rule 24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted

[TZ350]

Thanks.......

[gav]

My only issue with that change is no "newbie" looking at racing a Suzuki GP125 or a twin 125 2 stroke is going to be able to make sense of 452mm2 where at least a 24mm carb did maybe?

[husaberg]

My only issue with that change is no "newbie" looking at racing a Suzuki GP125 or a twin 125 2 stroke is going to be able to make sense of 452mm2 where at least a 24mm carb did maybe?

the AMA at Daytona used a plug that was pushed into the carb intake track, pretty simple stuff.

[Bert]

My only issue with that change is no "newbie" looking at racing a Suzuki GP125 or a twin 125 2 stroke is going to be able to make sense of 452mm2 where at least a 24mm carb did maybe?


the AMA at Daytona used a plug that was pushed into the carb intake track, pretty simple stuff.

I think he means wording of the rules rather than physical measurement.

In terms of plug, how does one deal with odd shaped inlets?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Or remove said carb size rule all together and then said newbie doesn't have to get his knickers in a twist over rules and comes racing....:devil2:

[Bert]

Or remove said carb size rule all together and then said newbie doesn't have to get his knickers in a twist over rules and comes racing....:devil2:

That will get a few excited...
:corn:

[husaberg]

I think he means wording of the rules rather than physical measurement.

In terms of plug, how does one deal with odd shaped inlets?

With the AMA restrictor it was a simple go or no go.

[Bert]

With the AMA restrictor it was a simple go or no go.

Quite flexible then? Or is everything round?

[mr bucketracer]

That will get a few excited...
:corn:make it you have to run a 45mm carb , no smaller , and the intake to handle it :laugh:

[Grumph]

Put a semi colon after 104cc : then capital At....and it makes sense. 24mm equivalent in brackets after the sqmm figure...

Why not put up a second version which has no restrictions on the inlet tracts. Get MNZ to poll licence holders as to which goes forward...In theory the remits are supposed to be circulated for discussion before the AGM so if it's in on time it's workable.

And ignore Husa - that bloody S has become his mission in life. It can stay as it is thanks.

[husaberg]

Quite flexible then? Or is everything round?

Pretty sure the rules specified a round hole "X" diameter. KISS

[Grumph]

Pretty sure the rules specified a round hole "X" diameter. KISS

You will no doubt have noted the tract(s) - I at least am thinking of twins, one gauge won't fit all.
Also a lot of the std Keihins are oval throat as well as others.

[husaberg]

You will no doubt have noted the tract(s) - I at least am thinking of twins, one gauge won't fit all.
Also a lot of the std Keihins are oval throat as well as others.

As Rob said he wanted to clarify the measurement procedure.
I feel Two gauges is still easier. KISS
Besides we could just get rid of them if they don't fit my one gauge idea:laugh:

[Grumph]

As Rob said he wanted to clarify the measurement procedure.
I feel Two gauges is still easier. KISS
Besides we could just get rid of them if they don't fit my one gauge idea:laugh:

Bugger that - if I've got to build a restricted inlet tract it's going to be as hard to verify area as i can make it. Formula for the area of an ellipse anyone ?

[husaberg]

Bugger that - if I've got to build a restricted inlet tract it's going to be as hard to verify area as i can make it. Formula for the area of an ellipse anyone ?

Hence my KISS round bungy thingy, saves on potential arguments. Its surprising how many people can't actually read a vernier.

[Grumph]

Hence my KISS round bungy thingy, saves on potential arguments. Its surprising how many people can't actually read a vernier.

You actually think I'm going to make it so that a vernier can reach the restriction ? I've got bore gauges and i'm damm well going to use them....

[husaberg]

You actually think I'm going to make it so that a vernier can reach the restriction ? I've got bore gauges and i'm damm well going to use them....

AMA tech bulletin 78-1
319394
Cameron covers it thoroughly in TDC 1
Plus in performance street bike handbook were this attachment came from
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=J7tQp2LtsYIC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=ama+tech+bulletin+78-1&source=bl&ots=qeR4Fpktzy&sig=4V5j9PJHmQtpjz9SY3lPCvqxpnk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijrtfJzufKAhWKmJQKHV5_D5EQ6AEIIDAB#v=on epage&q=ama%20tech%20bulletin%2078-1&f=false

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=iv1GVZSCOVsC&pg=PT570&lpg=PT570&dq=ama+tech+bulletin+78-1&source=bl&ots=etWs7_lK7v&sig=R8hVFl-UB9fukCCMjg0LwubuTT4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijrtfJzufKAhWKmJQKHV5_D5EQ6AEIIzAC#v=on epage&q=ama%20tech%20bulletin%2078-1&f=false

[Yow Ling]

Formula for the area of an ellipse anyone ?
A =pi × a × b

[Yow Ling]

Or remove said carb size rule all together and then said newbie doesn't have to get his knickers in a twist over rules and comes racing....:devil2:
This is probably the most simple solution

[TZ350]

Put a semi colon after 104cc : then capital At....and it makes sense. 24mm equivalent in brackets after the sqmm figure...

Proposed MNZ rule 24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored. F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.

[husaberg]

Proposed MNZ rule 24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored. F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/177791-Rule-change-submissions-close-1st-March-be-in-to-win?p=1130945850#post1130945850

[TZ350]

Help .... I have been unable to get onto the MNZ site to download the latest 2015 version of the rules to work with. Is this just me or is it MNZ's website?

[husaberg]

Help .... I have been unable to get onto the MNZ site to download the latest 2015 version of the rules to work with. Is this just me or is it MNZ's website?

Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature
24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the
make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system
except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less
than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or
supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single
24mm carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single
20mm carburettor


https://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/MoMS/proposed-rule-changes

[koba]

I think the rules are largely OK, we are all managing to build bikes that are quite close and most paths that one can choose are workable within the rules, with some pros and cons. Brilliant.

What I would like to see is one change to the status quo that is more inclusive.

There are A LOT of air-cooled 2 valve singles in our capacity range. There are lots of old Hondas and newer Chinese and other cheap engines available.
Currently they are screwed as they have to fit in with the other 4 valve 4-strokes yet will never keep up.

I'm all for giving them more capacity.

The only question in my mind is; how much?

175?
180?
190?
200?

The objective would to be to get one to be competitive with what we already have.
Horsepower may not be the full story here either, as we know it's not about the total number.

Grumph, what's your opinion?

[TZ350]

Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature
24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the
make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system
except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less
than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or
supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single
24mm carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single
20mm carburettor

https://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/MoMS/proposed-rule-changes

Thanks Husa. You know, that link does not work for me, strange!!!!

Ok so now we have the up to date 2015 text with the rule change possibilities and an S after the word "Kart motor".

Option 1, a refined definition of 24mm carb equivalent that takes into account EFI and throttle plate carbs like the Tillotson pumper carb.

Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature
24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the
make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system
except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less
than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or
supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored. F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single
20mm carburettor

Option 2 same as 1 but without the F5 4T 20mm carb restriction

Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature
24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the
make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system
except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less
than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or
supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.

Option 3, no carb restrictions at all.

Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature
24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the
make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system
except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less
than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or
supercharged.

Now if we could have no restrictions on fuel type or additives for 4T's of less than 100cc and 2T's of less than 70cc then we could see some very interesting machines indeed.

[TZ350]

What I would like to see is one change to the status quo that is more inclusive. There are A LOT of air-cooled 2 valve singles in our capacity range. There are lots of old Hondas and newer Chinese and other cheap engines available.

Yes it would be good to get them included, some cheap but usable engines are excluded because they are 155cc to start with.

[jasonu]

some cheap but usable engines are excluded because they are 155cc to start with.

Then why not increase the upper limit to say 300cc to include them as well.
Hell why not just make it all comers run what you brung...That way every time some old/obscure or newly imported motor comes out of the wood work or if someone runs out of oversizes or finds cheaper larger pistons from the space shuttle they won't have to worry about the rules because there won't be any. While you are at it make it open fuel incase someone has a jug of old rocket fuel or some plutonium in the back yard.

[Grumph]

I think the rules are largely OK, we are all managing to build bikes that are quite close and most paths that one can choose are workable within the rules, with some pros and cons. Brilliant.

What I would like to see is one change to the status quo that is more inclusive.

There are A LOT of air-cooled 2 valve singles in our capacity range. There are lots of old Hondas and newer Chinese and other cheap engines available.
Currently they are screwed as they have to fit in with the other 4 valve 4-strokes yet will never keep up.

I'm all for giving them more capacity.

The only question in my mind is; how much?

175?
180?
190?
200?

The objective would to be to get one to be competitive with what we already have.
Horsepower may not be the full story here either, as we know it's not about the total number.

Grumph, what's your opinion?

I know that without much development - but quite a lot of clever fabrication - 20plus(a little) HP is available from a legal 2 valver. 185 would be an easy build but IMO would only see maybe another 5HP or so. Better torque though which for kart tracks may be a factor. 2V really need alcohol to go against 4V on equal capacity terms.


Then why not increase the upper limit to say 300cc to include them as well.
Hell why not just make it all comers run what you brung...That way every time some old/obscure or newly imported motor comes out of the wood work or if someone runs out of oversizes or finds cheaper larger pistons from the space shuttle they won't have to worry about the rules because there won't be any. While you are at it make it open fuel incase someone has a jug of old rocket fuel or some plutonium in the back yard.

Oh certainly. But I'd point out that the bucket rules have been one of the most stable classes over the years. This may be the last chance for some time to do an "adjustment".
Personally I like Rob's three proposals as it mandates rider involvement in any changes. Note that as a non licence holder, currently I won't get a say.
And yes, i know i can get a vote but I feel i'm better to just stir as I'm currently doing.

[FastFred]

While you are at it make it open fuel incase someone has a jug of old rocket fuel or some plutonium in the back yard.

You are serious right! Best suggestion yet.

[gav]

Isnt that S suppose to be removed?

[F5 Dave]

We'll end up with a second one so we'll have to pronounce motorss with a lisp.

[TZ350]

Isnt that S suppose to be removed?

What ..... :facepalm: Ok I am confused, someone else can do that bit.

[jasonu]

someone else can do that bit.

That is probably what the last person said which is why it is still there...

[TZ350]

Yep I guess LOL

[Skid Mark]

Hi. Can anyone one tell me if I can run a 50cc
2t in the F4 class. Cheers

[Yow Ling]

Hi. Can anyone one tell me if I can run a 50cc
2t in the F4 class. Cheers

just read the rules

[Yow Ling]

Thanks Husa. You know, that link does not work for me, strange!!!!

Ok so now we have the up to date 2015 text with the rule change possibilities and an S after the word "Kart motor".

Option 1, a refined definition of 24mm carb equivalent that takes into account EFI and throttle plate carbs like the Tillotson pumper carb.

Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature
24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the
make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system
except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less
than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or
supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored. F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single
20mm carburettor

Option 2 same as 1 but without the F5 4T 20mm carb restriction

Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature
24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the
make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system
except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less
than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or
supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.

Option 3, no carb restrictions at all.

Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature
24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the
make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system
except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less
than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or
supercharged.

Now if we could have no restrictions on fuel type or additives for 4T's of less than 100cc and 2T's of less than 70cc then we could see some very interesting machines indeed.

I think this is worded just for your own needs, maybe it would be better and fit the purpose for which it was intended if it read
F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between throttle slide or butterfly and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.

[Skid Mark]

Simple question can I run a 50cc 2t in f4

[seymour14]

Simple question can I run a 50cc 2t in f4

You can, but don't get run over.

[mr bucketracer]

You can, but don't get run over.club meets but dont think a gp

[mr bucketracer]

only one new rule i would like ,only realy for us heavy weights if people want to play fair , 2 things 190kg+ bike rider combo more cc's or weigh your bike up , i rode regans new bike the other day and was shock horered what 10kg less in a bike on how it feels like there is no bike under you!! you gay light weight riders dont have any idea on how good you have it ! guess you will all be scared pumba , nick, rich, and me and other fast heavey weights would smash you all:ar15:

[Skid Mark]

So have I got it right that the rule states 55cc to100cc water cooled yes so 50cc is not enough to meet f4 class yes or no

[jasonu]

only one new rule i would like ,only realy for us heavy weights if people want to play fair , 2 things 190kg+ bike rider combo more cc's or weigh your bike up , i rode regans new bike the other day and was shock horered what 10kg less in a bike on how it feels like there is no bike under you!! you gay light weight riders dont have any idea on how good you have it ! guess you will all be scared pumba , nick, rich, and me and other fast heavey weights would smash you all:ar15:

There should be a ban on fat cunts.

[rambaldi]

There should be a ban on fat cunts.

Fuck that, the skinny cunts need to ride around with ballast. I ain't going to the gym.

[TALLIS]

So have I got it right that the rule states 55cc to100cc water cooled yes so 50cc is not enough to meet f4 class yes or no
Your bike will be classed as f5 regardless. The race groups are usually "a" "b" and possibly "c" depending on your lap times. Then your bike is classed f4 or f5 depending on what it is.... hope you can understand

[Grumph]

I think this is worded just for your own needs, maybe it would be better and fit the purpose for which it was intended if it read
F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between throttle slide or butterfly and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.

Well I tried to word things to leave it as open for experiment as possible. As you'd know, I have no axe to grind - or skin in this particular game.
If you're inferring that what may result is an airbox/plenum chamber with a 24mm entry, why not ? It's been proved I think that the carb throat size ain't a limiting factor, at least at 24mm.
Have a look at most kart classes, they have to run a specific airbox - with a couple of small entry holes. Allegedly as an intake silencer...
The way you've worded it means the carbs which have the restriction either before or at the slide/butterfly won't be legal.

[Skid Mark]

So what your saying is a 50cc non comp 2 stroke is to small for f4 So the derbis 49.9 is to small for f4 also and the rs aprilia is also well under class capacity so how is that allowed ??

[jasonu]

So what your saying is a 50cc non comp 2 stroke is to small for f4 So the derbis 49.9 is to small for f4 also and the rs aprilia is also well under class capacity so how is that allowed ??

No. What he is saying is read the fucking rules. it is all there.

[TZ350]

I think this is worded just for your own needs, maybe it would be better and fit the purpose for which it was intended if it read
F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between throttle slide or butterfly and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.

Actually after advice submitted on this thread and by PM, my proposal was worded as best I could to be a very good reflection of the existing rule without changing it but refines the definition of 24mm equivalent to cover a wide range of carburettor types and EFI throttle bodies in an unambiguous way without changing the thrust of the original rule itself. Yours might have a hidden agenda as your proposal restricts things in a way the original rule did not.

At this point I intend submitting my proposal the way it is and if it is accepted by MNZ you will get a chance to put your views forward on its merits to them in April.

[F5 Dave]

Not trying to be rude mark, but you've pointed it out and you still want someone to tell you different?

F5 is where its at and its legal.

[TZ350]

So what your saying is a 50cc non comp 2 stroke is to small for f4 So the derbis 49.9 is to small for f4 also and the rs aprilia is also well under class capacity so how is that allowed ??

When has an Aprilia 50 been allowed to run in F4, it is news to me. I have seen a few 50's in B grade but F4???

[TALLIS]

When has an Aprilia 50 been allowed to run in F4??? news to me.

I think maybe he's abit simple rob, one more try. An f5 bike can beat f4 bikes in lap times and compete in the same race. An f4 bike cannot race in a f5 race ( which the only sole f5 race is the nz f5 gp) if you have a f5 bike, please bring it to a track and race it!

[Yow Ling]

Actually it was worded as best I could after advice and is the best reflection of the existing rule with the aim of a definition covering a wide range of carburettor types and EFI throttle bodies. Yours might have a hidden agenda as your proposal restricts things in a way the original rule did not as it does not allow for any taper or other variations in the carburettor or inlet tract.

At this point I intend submitting my proposal the way it is and if it is accepted as a proposal by MNZ you will get a chance to put your views forward on its merits in April.

Mine has no agenda . As the current rule stipulates carburetion equivelent, not restrictor size into plenum or helmholtz resonator. the 24mm hole into the plenum can easily pass 2x the air that will pass through a 24 mm CARBURETTOR but you may not want a 24 mm carb in there but a 40mm throttlebody for example. The wording Carburation equivelent is what is in the current rules , no mention of a 24mm restrictor.

Your idea may well be what bucket people are looking for but maybe not

A 500 hp V8 can breathe through 2x 30.6mm restrictors, you may as well have no restriction

Toyota RV8KLM Specification
Designation: Toyota RV8KLM
Configuration: 90° V8
Displacement: 3400 cc
Valve Train Dual overhead camshaft with four valves per cylinder
Cylinder Block: Aluminium
Fuel: Petrol, specification according to ACO regulations
Weight: Approx 120kg
Power Over 500PS
Air Intake Restrictor 2 x 30.6mm
Engine Management: Pectel MQ12 ECU by Cosworth Electronics
Lubrication: Dry sump
Cooling: Water cooled

[F5 Dave]

Why would anyone bother to race a 50 against 100s and 150s? Sounds silly to me. Oh.. . right. ;)

I got excluded at an away meeting by a jobsworth (not that common in this bunch). I told him id just fitted my 55cc barrel so i wouldnt run in f5 for this meeting. He muttered, realised he was beaten and gave in.

[Skid Mark]

No. What he is saying is read the fucking rules. it is all there.

Thanks jasonu
I have read the rules and a couple of derbi 49.9 is winning everything in f4 just wondering how that works if 55cc is starting limit not a silly question really for a bike that wins everything !!!

[F5 Dave]

Ahh, aftermarket 80cc kit.

[TZ350]

a couple of derbi 49.9 is winning everything in f4.

No ... Derbi 50's with big bore kits are.

[Yow Ling]

Anything over 55cc is F4, is what he needs to hear

[TZ350]

The wording Carburation equivelent is what is in the current rules , no mention of a 24mm restrictor.

Or throttle body, so that makes EFI suspect, maybe time to change that.


A 500 hp V8 can breathe through 2x 30.6mm restrictors, you may as well have no restriction.

I agree, trying to limit things by carburettor restriction is missguided.

I would regret the loss of all my legitimate development work and hard earned power advantages it has given me but would be happy if you submitted a proposal that did away with the carb restrictions in F4 and F5.

But if you do I pick nothing much in the hp stakes would change, those that do the work will reap the rewards and those that don't wont.

I have published everything and there is nothing I have done that others can't do too if they want too.

You are sort of faced with two choices, do the work or try and cut down others successes by fiddling with the rules.

[Skid Mark]

No. What he is saying is read the fucking rules. it is all there.
So if your bike is fast enough you can break the written rules hello !!!

[TZ350]

So if your bike is fast enough you can break the written rules hello !!!

Probably .... and if you can pilot your bike fast enough you are a hero, God like even, sadly I have never been there....:weep:

[Skid Mark]

Aprilia derbi start life under 55c which means they don't meet your f4 rules

[Yow Ling]

Aprilia derbi start life under 55c which means they don't meet your f4 rules

And TZ350 thought I was thick, take your ritalin and read the whole rule

[TZ350]

Aprilia derbi start life under 55c which means they don't meet your f4 rules

That is sharp, why has anyone else not thought of that..... :scratch:

[husaberg]

Aprilia derbi start life under 55c which means they don't meet your f4 rules

It doesn't mater at what engine size it started life at, its what size it is on race day.
A plenty of bikes over the years have been destroked or debored. As well as bored or stroked.
You could if you felt inclined disconect a couple of cylinders and run a CBR250RR prefectly legallly if you so desired.
Or bore and or bore and stroke a 50. As long as it is over 55cc it is F4 class

[TZ350]

And TZ350 thought I was thick...

Never ever .... I think you'er very clever LOL

[Yow Ling]

Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled 4 stroke 55-150cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled

Appendix A MOMS

[Skid Mark]

That's OK guys I had someone try and tell me you can't start of with an engine outside the class cc rating and mod to comply so thanks for clearing that up for me

[chrisc]

On the topic of capacity and older style engines (such as 2 valve 4ts), it's worth looking at the Australian NSW bucket racing rules as they've done just this.
They split it into motolite, commuterlite and superlite. Motolite being the more modified class which is open rules on frames etc. Superlite is pretty much stock bike racing. I don't think we need 3 classes but there is definitely scope for 2 classes which are raced on the same grid as we do currently. That is, F4 and F5 grids but with two sub classes.

I really like this set of rules. It's super simple and not a bunch of crammed together sentences with poor grammar pretending to be rules.

CLICK HERE FOR FULL RULES (http://www.ozbucketracing.com/rules.html#2011_Motolite_Rules)

2014 Motolite Rules
Classes: One class combining:

- 111cc Air-cooled single cylinder 2 stroke
- 159cc Air-cooled 2 valve twin cylinder 4 stroke
- 175cc Air-cooled 3, 4 or 5 valve 1cyl. 4 stroke
- 190cc Air-cooled Horizontal 4 Valve 4 speed
gearbox (Laydown Motor)
- 230cc Air-cooled 2 valve single cylinder 4 stroke
- 85cc Water-cooled 2 stroke
- 159cc Water-cooled 4 valve single cyl. 4 stroke
- 185cc Water-cooled 2 valve single cyl 4 stroke

[Henk]

That's OK guys I had someone try and tell me you can't start of with an engine outside the class cc rating and mod to comply so thanks for clearing that up for me

Was in the middle of a long winded response to this. Not going to bother.
Why don't you stop trolling and let the one guy that has an interest in the case sort it because you aren't helping his cause.

[Skid Mark]

If asking for clarification is trolling I'm sorry but I keep getting different answers to the same questions

[Skid Mark]

If asking for clarification on a rule is trolling IM SORRY but I keep getting different answers to the same questions

[wildman]

Shit i don't know if my new bucket sidecar will fit the rules, better get some rule change proposals in before i finish it:banana::banana:

[TZ350]

It's worth looking at the Australian NSW bucket racing rules.

I really like this set of rules. It's super simple and not a bunch of crammed together sentences with poor grammar pretending to be rules.

CLICK HERE FOR FULL RULES (http://www.ozbucketracing.com/rules.html#2011_Motolite_Rules)


There is a lot of verbage in the Aus rules. Would something like this work better? Original MNZ rules. Spaced out a bit and re numbered. Done away with some of the clutter and no talk of re bore allowances.

Road Racing – Miniature

24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles.

24.3 - Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motor and transmission parts are not permitted.

24.4 - There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility.

24.5 - All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged.

24.6 - Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes: (these are maximum capacities)

F4
2 stroke 55-110cc
2 stroke 55-131cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-158cc

F5
2 stroke 0-53cc
4 stroke 0-104cc air cooled

24.7 - Side Cars ....

How hard would that be to understand?

I can't get onto the MNZ site to check the actual re bored capacities so some of the capacities may be wrong, its the uncluttered layout that I wanted to talk about.

[Grumph]

If asking for clarification on a rule is trolling IM SORRY but I keep getting different answers to the same questions

Don't believe everything you're told, check the internet....wait, have i got that the right way round ?
Learn to read the rules and interpret what they mean and what the intent was when they were drafted.

Given that the current shitstorm was caused by some prick asking MNZ for clarification, in future can I request that anyone who wants a rule clarified should go to a race meeting and ask the competitors before going into print and upsetting the bloody applecart.

Rob - simple and uncluttered is good. If you go like the Aussies, it's too complicated and performance equivalency questions come up. Their equivalency formula may well work on kart tracks but I have doubts about the big tracks.

[jasonu]

So if your bike is fast enough you can break the written rules hello !!!

I hear tennis is fun. Maybe you should try that...

[jasonu]

You are sort of faced with two choices, do the work or try and cut down others successes by fiddling with the rules.

Owners of already developed 100cc water cooled 2t bikes could say that. They are getting no benefits at all from the rule change proposals where as pretty much all other types of F4 engines are.

[F5 Dave]

Mark. Some advice on another note. You only have ten posts, I suggest you abandon that name and start with another. There was a Skidmark with no space some years back. Do a search on some of his posts and see if you want to be confused for him. You don't.

[Skid Mark]

Someone told me old skid mark was an arse but I'm not him I promise and people get lots of shit wrong so that's OK as for all the other f4 what choice is there a four valve fxr and Italian syte 2 stroke or some 2 valve engines I got of noahs arch, at least there maybe 2 ,is this f4 or classics. ??

[Skid Mark]

A field 80 percent fxr s so it fxr racing with a few smart complying rocket surgeons on serious hybrids which is great and I'm all for guys that can do that and they will always be fast .all the bikes in the world and this is all we have ,choice please guys thanks

[jasonu]

A field 80 percent fxr s so it fxr racing with a few smart complying rocket surgeons on serious hybrids which is great and I'm all for guys that can do that and they will always be fast .all the bikes in the world and this is all we have ,choice please guys thanks

There is plenty of choice in the clubmans and F3 classes.

[FastFred]

Someone told me old skid mark was an arse but I'm not him I promise ....

Talks the same ... what smells like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, I promise you, it may very well be a duck.

[FastFred]

You are sort of faced with two choices, do the work or try and cut down others successes by fiddling with the rules.
Owners of already developed 100cc water cooled 2t bikes could say that. They are getting no benefits at all from the rule change proposals where as pretty much all other types of F4 engines are.

Not sure how a proposal that is adding clarity by better defining a 24mm carburetor equivalent technically disadvantages or benefits anyone. If I have missed something please point it out.

[jasonu]

Not sure how a proposal that is adding clarity by better defining a 24mm carburetor equivalent technically disadvantages or benefits anyone. If I have missed something please point it out.

Has talk of proposing removing the 24mm carb restriction for 125cc aircooled 2t AND adding a 24mm carb restriction to over 104cc watercooled 2t been abandoned???

If that is the case then it looks like skid mark is not the only one with comprehension issues...

[FastFred]

Has talk of proposing removing the 24mm carb restriction for 125cc aircooled 2t AND adding a 24mm carb restriction to over 104cc watercooled 2t been abandoned???

I have been following this with interest, and things do get a bit disjointed, the idea may have been floated. But pretty sure the 24mm restriction for any 2T over 104cc is currently in the rules and its just the clarification thing of what a 24mm equivalent means. Or better yet now 100's can be 110cc removing the restriction all together for everyone as air cooleds are more effectively thermally limited than they are by a 24mm carb. Anyway that is the way I understand it.

[Moooools]

Rule:
Down-stream of all throttling devices, a SINGLE restrictor with a maximum internal chord length of 24mm, OR, TWO restrictors with a maximum internal chord length of 17(?)mm must be implemented. All air entering the engine(s) must flow through the restrictor(s).

----------------------

If you can't remember your high school geometry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_(geometry)
Pretty much, it doesnt matter what shape it is, if you can measure more than 24mm (or 17mm for two) anywhere arross the smallest section of the restrictor, the rule has been broken. This restrictor could of course be a part of the carb, as long as it is down stream of the throttle (buterfly/slide/whatever

Sure this leaves it open to making massive plenums down stream of the carb, but have fun with throttle response if you start plaing that game. Also oval carbs might get a little shafted, or someone might want to build a triple, but hey, you can't please everyone.

[Grumph]

I think this is worded just for your own needs, maybe it would be better and fit the purpose for which it was intended if it read
F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between throttle slide or butterfly and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.

Oh for fucks sake, how about a compromise.

F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc: At some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, but within the confines of the carburettor body or Injector throttle body(s) the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.

[mr bucketracer]

On the topic of capacity and older style engines (such as 2 valve 4ts), it's worth looking at the Australian NSW bucket racing rules as they've done just this.
They split it into motolite, commuterlite and superlite. Motolite being the more modified class which is open rules on frames etc. Superlite is pretty much stock bike racing. I don't think we need 3 classes but there is definitely scope for 2 classes which are raced on the same grid as we do currently. That is, F4 and F5 grids but with two sub classes.

I really like this set of rules. It's super simple and not a bunch of crammed together sentences with poor grammar pretending to be rules.

CLICK HERE FOR FULL RULES (http://www.ozbucketracing.com/rules.html#2011_Motolite_Rules)

2014 Motolite Rules
Classes: One class combining:

- 111cc Air-cooled single cylinder 2 stroke
- 159cc Air-cooled 2 valve twin cylinder 4 stroke
- 175cc Air-cooled 3, 4 or 5 valve 1cyl. 4 stroke
- 190cc Air-cooled Horizontal 4 Valve 4 speed
gearbox (Laydown Motor)
- 230cc Air-cooled 2 valve single cylinder 4 stroke
- 85cc Water-cooled 2 stroke
- 159cc Water-cooled 4 valve single cyl. 4 stroke
- 185cc Water-cooled 2 valve single cyl 4 strokei agree with most of this if weight limits put in place

[F5 Dave]

OK how about this, everyone else starts and you have to weight at least a lap?

[mr bucketracer]

OK how about this, everyone else starts and you have to weight at least a lap?2 laps to give you guys any chance , going to bring a divers belt to the track (-; who wants 60kg added to there weight:killingme

[FastFred]

LOL :laugh: looking back over this thread it is amusing to see people who think that cleverly modifying a 2T cylinder is a perfect Bucket thing to do but when it comes to cleverly modifying a carb or inlet system within the rules they get all worked up as if it was somehow cheating .....
Cleverly modifying a carb or cylinder or anything else to get the best out of it,:rockon: its all a perfect Bucket thing to do.

[Yow Ling]

LOL :laugh: looking back over this thread it is amusing to see people who think that cleverly modifying a 2T cylinder is a perfect Bucket thing to do but when it comes to cleverly modifying a carb or inlet system within the rules they get all worked up as if it was somehow cheating .....
Cleverly modifying a carb or cylinder or anything else to get the best out of it,:rockon: its all a perfect Bucket thing to do.

Yea , if you can modify your carbs , we want an extra 30cc !!

[TZ350]

Yea , if you can modify your carbs , we want an extra 30cc !!

See you and raise you one. You can have 30cc if we can have nitro to play with too ...... :eek:

[husaberg]

See you and raise you one. You can have 30cc if we can have nitro to play with too ...... :eek:

I was actually thinking the other day about a 180 degree u turn.
Just Maybe it is time for MX 80's but only if they are cylinder reed that gets rid of the potential flash harrys that would turn up on 2013 KTM85 engined bikes.

[Yow Ling]

Just have a "no flash harrys" rule

[husaberg]

Just have a "no flash harrys" rule

But i would really like to do it myself.:laugh:

[mr bucketracer]

smoke and mirrors thread , what happing we don't know about

[chrisc]

I was actually thinking the other day about a 180 degree u turn.
Just Maybe it is time for MX 80's but only if they are cylinder reed that gets rid of the potential flash harrys that would turn up on 2013 KTM85 engined bikes.

Or just 80cc MX engines before a certain manufacture date...
Really, there are loads of different ways to prevent the problems of why people don't want them, it's just doing it which is hard thing.

[husaberg]

Or just 80cc MX engines before a certain manufacture date...
Really, there are loads of different ways to prevent the problems of why people don't want them, it's just doing it which is hard thing.

Cylinder reed models is easy and no need for rocket scientists to figure out what model year it is etc. Plus they have a lower HP potential Crafty aye.

[TZ350]

Just Maybe it is time for MX 80's but only if they are cylinder reed that gets rid of the potential flash harrys that would turn up on 2013 KTM85 engined bikes.

Flash Harry's Dad could buy him one but isn't the current quick 2T up here at Mt Welly about 24.5hp and 60kg. Being a real Bucket I am sure if they weren't restricted in what cylinder they could use they would easily better the KTM85's 25+.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GKEHiXFI9qg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

25.5 hp 12.3 tq ... MX85 all the way, well 85cc no restrictions, all or nothing, simple rules, love it.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BJ70FaG_Y8Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

I am doing my bit to tidy the carb equivalent thing up, MX85's are up for dibs, so someone else should put in a rule change proposal.

At 3:20 I am sure that was Nathaniel that blew past, it was his quick easy clean style anyway.

[husaberg]

Isn't the current quick 2T up here at Mt Welly about 24hp and 60kg

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GKEHiXFI9qg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

25.5 hp 12.3 tq ... MX85 all the way no restrictions, all or nothing, simple rules, love it.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BJ70FaG_Y8Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Those KTM85's are available as a 105 as well :laugh:
but seriously they are too quick and too dear they are basically a Reed valve RSA inside.
Hence my cylinder reed and 80cc only, thus no flash Harrys. otherwise far too many bikes would be made obsolete overnight and no one wants that.

[goose8]

Or just 80cc MX engines before a certain manufacture date...
Really, there are loads of different ways to prevent the problems of why people don't want them, it's just doing it which is hard thing.

Personally I think mx125s are the go with a weight limit bike an rider , would be crazy to watch .

[TZ350]

The Aprilia and Derbi are case reed, so it has to be 85cc open anything goes.

[TZ350]

Personally I think mx125s are the go with a weight limit bike an rider , would be crazy to watch .

Me to, min 220 kg all up, now that has me thinking, still time to get another proposal in. Any additional weight required is worn in the style of a dive belt. And happy about MX's so long as all 125's are air cooled and restricted to an unmodified controled standard production 24mm carb from a single approved manufacturer like Amal.

319501

$1,250 NZD before buying any jets or needles. Keeping Buckets simple.

[goose8]

Me to, min 220 kg all up, now that has me thinking, still time to get another proposal in. Any additional weight required is worn in the style of a dive belt. And happy about MX's so long as all 125's are air cooled and restricted to an unmodified controled standard production 24mm carb from a single approved manufacturer like Amal.

319501

$1,250 NZD before buying any jets or needles. Keeping Buckets simple.

That carb costs more than my bucket so not for me .
But I was thinking standard watercalled 125s standard carb ign etc with around 170kg combined weight those motors being so light bikes would be around the 70 kilo mark so rider around 100kg seems like a place to start?

[husaberg]

The Aprilia and Derbi are case reed, so it has to be 85cc open anything goes.

They are case reed but are designed as a 50 they are also a road based engine where as i said the KTM85 is a virtual GP bike engine. Not to mention expensive.
I am trying to keep the playing feild fair for all, remember this is a pretty dramatic rule change in both philosophy and equipment eligability here. Baby steps

[TZ350]

That carb costs more than my bucket so not for me .

Na not for me either, just trying to mock the idea of a control carburettor.... :laugh:


But I was thinking standard watercooled 125s standard carb ign etc

F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.

[TZ350]

Well I want to go after aftermarket cylinders. All good and well if non OEM parts are the same or equal to the OEM parts but when you can buy an aftermarket cylinder that only shares the stud pattern of the original cylinder then that's just not in the spirit of bucket racing.
Ok ok. I will bite. Tell me how the above hurts the sport? Explain to me how this really hurts the sport. "THE SPORT" as in motorcycle racing. Not fucking about in your shed.

I thought the sport was f..king about in the shed to build dyno bragging rights... what have I missed...:scratch:

[mr bucketracer]

I thought the sport was f..king about in the shed to build dyno bragging rights... what have I missed...:scratch:what have we missed .bolt on boys racing:facepalm:

[Cheesy]

Na not for me either, just trying to mock the idea of a control carburettor.... :laugh:



F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc ; At some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2 (24mm equivalent) in total. For the purposes of measurement, EFI throttle body idle air circuit if any and carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.

Ive got an EFI idle air valve with a 16mm hole through it, Im sure you could make an even bigger stepper driven one if you wanted.... The whole 24mm carb equivalent rule seems to create more problems than it solves.

Oh yea, let the mx 85s in so I can sell the engine Ive got sitting in the garage

[Bert]

I thought the sport was f..king about in the shed to build dyno bragging rights... what have I missed...:scratch:

What we have missed is that NZ became part of the wider world, gone of the days of needing to number8 wire everything (while great fun) can be a little limiting for some.
Buckets became popular again with the inclusion of FXRs - ask yourself why? 1000s of TF/TS engines sitting around. Plenty of 250 frames. But we didn't see stuff all being built...
Play station generation has the income and the ability to purchase something that was reliable and worked. Then the arms race started (hot cams from over seas, kelford if asked nicely, etc...)...
The flood gates opened and other new stuff - performance parts... Etcetcetc... All allowed under the rules as they stood (all be it very grey).
No real way to remove these things out of the mix now.
Only solution is to modify the class structure (my view) or introduce weight limits. Last thing we need is to make the rule set that so long and complicated that no one will be bothered...

But... Power doesn't always equal wins - I'm the perfect example of this...

Fast guys will always be fast, some people will have the money or the skill to make cool stuff. Some people do it just for fun.

[Yow Ling]

Those KTM85's are available as a 105 as well :laugh:
but seriously they are too quick and too dear they are basically a Reed valve RSA inside.
Hence my cylinder reed and 80cc only, thus no flash Harrys. otherwise far too many bikes would be made obsolete overnight and no one wants that.

I think the cost side of all this is a red herring, so what if they cost nearly $9,000 , FXRs used to cost $3500 nearly 15 years ago. You cant exclude a bike because of its new price, what if you buy a wreck on Tard me for $1500 or get a stolen one for a couple of hundy.

Most of the bikes in lightweight production are wrecks from Turners , imagine if they sent the $15,000 bike home.

I think 85s will be fine, but maybe a couple of years away if there is a problem with FXRs, it would be good to get the rules tidied up before we start introducing major changes.

the fast guys will always be fast , it is dumb to try and slow them down with picky rules

[TZ350]

Ive got an EFI idle air valve with a 16mm hole through it.

Sure you have, lets see it idle ... :laugh:

[husaberg]

I think the cost side of all this is a red herring, so what if they cost nearly $9,000 , FXRs used to cost $3500 nearly 15 years ago. You cant exclude a bike because of its new price, what if you buy a wreck on Tard me for $1500 or get a stolen one for a couple of hundy.

Most of the bikes in lightweight production are wrecks from Turners , imagine if they sent the $15,000 bike home.

I think 85s will be fine, but maybe a couple of years away if there is a problem with FXRs, it would be good to get the rules tidied up before we start introducing major changes.

the fast guys will always be fast , it is dumb to try and slow them down with picky rules

I was attempting to keep it fair with something cost focused. Remember i am probably the most vocal objector of the MX85's anyway.

[kel]

. Then the arms race started (hot cams from over seas, kelford if asked nicely, etc...)...
The flood gates opened and other new stuff - performance parts... Etcetcetc... All allowed under the rules as they stood (all be it very grey).

There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs
So Cams are open, pistons are open, ignitions are open, carbs are open, etc. What do you guys have in those engines that is grey then ... :spanking:

[seymour14]

There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs
So Cams are open, pistons are open, ignitions are open, carbs are open, etc. What do you guys have in those engines that is grey then ... :spanking:

The dark side of the force...:msn-wink:

[jasonu]

.... The whole 24mm carb equivalent rule seems to create more problems than it solves.



Do you know why that rule was introduced?

[Cheesy]

Sure you have, lets see it idle ... :laugh:

Who said it has to idle? (well it works fine on my 4.5l RV8) Realistically though there is no reason it couldnt be done, I dont think most fly by wire systems have a separate idle control anymore and they can control 60mm up throttle bodies. Just pointing out an obvious loophole

[TZ350]

True, thanks. I am finding It's harder than it looks to develop simple workable rules. :)

[richban]

True, thanks. I am finding It's harder than it looks to develop simple workable rules. :)

Well what is the problem really at the moment? You are trying to figure the 24mm carb rule. That seams very very straight forward to me. 24mm hole in some carb. Boom done, sweet as mate. Can someone please point out a time when there was an official protest lodged in buckets.

People cry about the Derbi and bolt on bits. But who has had the balls to protest! You ether protest or you have no leg to stand on. Crying after the fact just comes across as exactly that. Crying coz you are a cry baby. Not talking about that other incident. handle bars hit the ground or did they? Glad I missed that ugly business.


(((re-bore))) This causes lots of discussion. Re-boring! Re-place bore, re-sleeve bore, Ditch the words rebore and replace with must not exceed capacity blah blah blah.

I have no agenda at all. I am building a 50 for F5 fun. Otherwise bucket racing has taken a back seat. More and more these discussions piss me off. Its just a bit of fun kids.

Please tell me this. How many of the posters in this tread were in the top 5 of ether the last GP. or the BOB. (I sure as fuck wasn't otherwise I would have totally won by miles ha ha ha).

[TZ350]

Can someone please point out a time when there was an official protest lodged in buckets.

How many of the posters in this tread were in the top 5 of ether the last GP. or the BOB. (I sure as fuck wasn't otherwise I would have totally won by miles ha ha ha).

Last race meeting at Mt Wellington.

And I have stood on the GP podium three times in my Bucket racing career.

[richban]

Last race meeting at Mt Wellington.

Really? What was the protest about. Bloody hell.

Was not talking about the past. I was talking about the last GP BOB.

[TALLIS]

Yes, I first hand hand have been protested (thanks Rob for the cash advance) I do tho agree somewhat of what rich is saying. If we are talking about clearing up 24mm carbs in the rules, it's not rocket science. If we want new engines introduced, different story. What we need is a bucket racers club, all bucket racers should have to have a membership, then we have a true gauge to pole members ( racers) and can sort out shit before asking mnz to change rules.

[richban]

Yes, I first hand hand have been protested (thanks Rob for the cash advance)

Ok. Well there I was thinking it never happened. Fuck a duck. It is proper motorsport then. Right, back to the shed to pull the 110 cylinder of the 50.

[husaberg]

Ok. Well there I was thinking it never happened. Fuck a duck. It is proper motorsport then. Right, back to the shed to pull the 110 cylinder of the 50.

Are you doing Mikes punchlines now Rich?
https://youtu.be/rtxbM7-jAD0

[TZ350]

What we need is a bucket racers club, all bucket racers should have to have a membership, then we have a true gauge to pole members ( racers) and can sort out shit before asking mnz to change rules.

This forum is the best we have, and why I started the thread so we could talk about the 24 and 110 thing after I was made aware of some squirrels working in secret on their own submissions.

[richban]

Are you doing Mikes punchlines now Rich?
https://youtu.be/rtxbM7-jAD0

Good point. Hey I am a 2 stroke guy now. No need to be a hater.

[TALLIS]

This thread is the best we have, and why I started the post so we could talk about it after I was made aware of some secret squirrels working on their own submissions.

ok, yes i get your intentions. But truth of the matter is, without some sort of group body (a club) mnz do not give a shit, of should i say, cannot judge on any grounds what is a true submission and a cock and bull submission from someone for there own benefit (the secret squirrel)

[richban]

This forum is the best we have, and why I started the thread so we could talk about the 24 and 110 thing after I was made aware of some squirrels working in secret on their own submissions.

Fare cop Rob. I think it worked we all will be keeping a keen eye on rules change submissions after this little chat. Good work.

[mr bucketracer]

Ok. Well there I was thinking it never happened. Fuck a duck. It is proper motorsport then. Right, back to the shed to pull the 110 cylinder of the 50.lol........

[richban]

lol........

Shut up you or I will protest you weight disadvantage.

[TZ350]

ok, yes i get your intentions. But truth of the matter is, without some sort of group body (a club) mnz do not give a shit, of should i say, cannot judge on any grounds what is a true submission and a cock and bull submission from someone for there own benefit (the secret squirrel)

The way I understand how it works is, if a rule change submission looks sensible to MNZ then they are pretty much aware of who the main players are and canvas their opinion. If MNZ accept the rule change proposal they publish it 1st April (or there abouts) on the MNZ site and invite submissions from all of us and from all of that feedback they make up their minds to accept or reject it.

Some of those people MNZ turn to for an opinion have already read this thread, I have seen their login names in the thread information field below.

So your opinion here does count and can influence things.

[husaberg]

Good point. Hey I am a 2 stroke guy now. No need to be a hater.

Shit Rich No one he hated you because you had a FXR
<marquee behavior="scroll" direction="left" scrollamount="3">There where likely many other reasons!</marquee>

[TALLIS]

The way I understand how it works is, if a rule change submission looks sensible to MNZ then they are pretty much aware of who the main players are and canvas their opinion. If MNZ accept the rule change proposal they publish it 1st April (or there abouts) on the MNZ site and invite submissions from all of us and from all of that feedback they make up their minds to accept or reject it.

I hope this is how it works, im guessing we will end up feeling like this.....

[richban]

Shit Rich No one he hated you because you had a FXR
<marquee behavior="scroll" direction="left" scrollamount="3">There where likely many other reasons!</marquee>

Oh man! Is it because I am beautiful. You cunts are shallow.

[jasonu]

I was made aware of some squirrels working in secret on their own submissions.

Do everyone a favor and out the secret squirrels and their submissions for all to see.
Shit this could be better than wankileaks!!!!!

[richban]

Do everyone a favor and out the secret squirrels and their submissions for all to see.
Shit this could be better than wankileaks!!!!!

So it turns out that the protest was about rider conduct. Seams Nick was racing and someone else was on there way to the shops and got lost. They found themselves on a race track and got upset about some passing that was close to them. I think I got that right? But this is all hear say so please don't believe me.

So now thats cleared up. Has the been a protest against an engine?

[TZ350]

Has there been a protest against an engine?

Not that I know of.

[Yow Ling]

Has the been a protest against an engine?

Do you think there should have been?
There were protests in development class at the nationals , thats getting closer to buckets, and a few in 250 production not even the strouds were safe

[BelindaS]

Hi. New here. I'm looking at getting into bucket racing. And I'm very glade I came across this thread.
I was wondering if someone could explain to me the Competition Bike Rule i.e meaning.

[Pumba]

So now thats cleared up. Has the been a protest against an engine?

I was going to a couple of years back Rich at Tokoroa. But you were good enough to open your engine up for every one to have a look inside, so saved me the fee:nya:

[F5 Dave]

Shit Rich No one he hated you because you had a FXR
<marquee behavior="scroll" direction="left" scrollamount="3">There where likely many other reasons!</marquee>
Well gee, I'm pretty sure I did. Guess I'm pretty confused now. Do we hug?

[Yow Ling]

Hi. New here. I'm looking at getting into bucket racing. And I'm very glade I came across this thread.
I was wondering if someone could explain to me the Competition Bike Rule i.e meaning.

Engines must be based on non competition engines , so no gp bike , motocross , go kart or other competition engines or gearbox parts
a good guide would be commuter bikes. FXR150 is not a competition engine

[husaberg]

Well gee, I'm pretty sure I did. Guess I'm pretty confused now. Do we hug?

Of course you can hug Rich (as long as I don't have to watch):killingme

[speedpro]

Ok. Well there I was thinking it never happened. Fuck a duck. It is proper motorsport then. Right, back to the shed to pull the 110 cylinder of the 50.
I knew it!

[Sketchy_Racer]

Do you all see how much of a fuck up rules make a sport!! The less rules in a class the better. Soon it'll end up its only ok to have 24mm carb or a 20x30mm oval as long as the radius in no larger than the moon and Richban is allowed infinite capacity to deal with his infinite mass :innocent:


In all seriousness why all the complicated bollocks. Rules should be capacity based and that should be the end of it. No if buts and maybes from where I sit. It does not matter how hard you regulate a class there will always be some combination that will be of an advantage its just up to people to find that out.

In order to not completely obsolete some of the existing buckets my 11pm at night half pissed idea for buckets would be:

4T - 200cc 2 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 170cc 4 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 160cc 4 valve Water cooled Non Competition
4T - 150cc Competition Engine

2T - 125cc Air Cooled Non Competition
2T - 105cc Water Cooled Non Competition
2T - 85cc Competition Engine

A definition of a competition engine is needed but that's past my pay grade to think about.

Again - Less rules means less bullshit!!!!!!

[husaberg]

Do you all see how much of a fuck up rules make a sport!! The less rules in a class the better. Soon it'll end up its only ok to have 24mm carb or a 20x30mm oval as long as the radius in no larger than the moon and Richban is allowed infinite capacity to deal with his infinite mass :innocent:


In all seriousness why all the complicated bollocks. Rules should be capacity based and that should be the end of it. No if buts and maybes from where I sit. It does not matter how hard you regulate a class there will always be some combination that will be of an advantage its just up to people to find that out.

In order to not completely obsolete some of the existing buckets my 11pm at night half pissed idea for buckets would be:

4T - 200cc 2 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 170cc 4 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 160cc 4 valve Water cooled Non Competition
4T - 150cc Competition Engine

2T - 125cc Air Cooled Non Competition
2T - 105cc Water Cooled Non Competition
2T - 85cc Competition Engine

A definition of a competition engine is needed but that's past my pay grade to think about.

Again - Less rules means less bullshit!!!!!!



By that set of rules the 100cc two strokes get penalised two fold with the removial of the carb restriction on the 125 aircooled and the four stokes also get a capacity increase why?

[TZ350]

Less rules means less bullshit!!!!!!

Love it .... now if only someone would put in a reduced rules submission.

[cotswold]

Personally I think mx125s are the go with a weight limit bike an rider , would be crazy to watch .

If a weight limit were ever to be brought in I'd quit immediately, if you larger folk want a class based on weight go race a Harley.
Race bikes are supposed to be light

PS Weight wise I'm mid 70's and the bike is low 80's and both of us could do with going on a weight loss program.

[jasonu]

So it turns out that the protest was about rider conduct. Seams Nick was racing and someone else was on there way to the shops and got lost. They found themselves on a race track and got upset about some passing that was close to them. I think I got that right? But this is all hear say so please don't believe me.

So now thats cleared up. Has the been a protest against an engine?

Make it PC and give everyone a trophy for showing up and doing their best...



Actually I was curious as to what TZ said about un named others that are devising a self serving rule change. Names and rule proposal please!!!

[jasonu]

By that set of rules the 100cc two strokes get penalised two fold with the removial of the carb restriction on the 125 aircooled and the four stokes also get a capacity increase why?

Maybe 3 fold. An 85cc MX'r right out of the box (and from a previous thread I think Schetchy has one and wants to use it) should dust any standard or mild 100 2T water cooled bike.

[TZ350]

If a weight limit were ever to be brought in I'd quit immediately, if you larger folk want a class based on weight go race a Harley.

That is not the spirit. Everyone wants a level playing field, set at their level of course ...... :laugh:

[TZ350]

Fuck a duck. It is proper motorsport then.


I knew it!

Me too .... :scooter:

[richban]

Do you all see how much of a fuck up rules make a sport!! The less rules in a class the better. Soon it'll end up its only ok to have 24mm carb or a 20x30mm oval as long as the radius in no larger than the moon and Richban is allowed infinite capacity to deal with his infinite mass :innocent:


In all seriousness why all the complicated bollocks. Rules should be capacity based and that should be the end of it. No if buts and maybes from where I sit. It does not matter how hard you regulate a class there will always be some combination that will be of an advantage its just up to people to find that out.

In order to not completely obsolete some of the existing buckets my 11pm at night half pissed idea for buckets would be:

4T - 200cc 2 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 170cc 4 valve Air cooled Non Competition
4T - 160cc 4 valve Water cooled Non Competition
4T - 150cc Competition Engine

2T - 125cc Air Cooled Non Competition
2T - 105cc Water Cooled Non Competition
2T - 85cc Competition Engine

A definition of a competition engine is needed but that's past my pay grade to think about.

Again - Less rules means less bullshit!!!!!!

NO GP ENGINES. I think an air cooled rs125 might go ok. It would mean you could run old air cooled cr 125 engines and the like. Oh and fuck you skinny! Get back in the shed and sort that 320 Honda beast. 110hp should do fine thanks.

[Sketchy_Racer]

By that set of rules the 100cc two strokes get penalised two fold with the removial of the carb restriction on the 125 aircooled and the four stokes also get a capacity increase why?

Have we not all learnt from TZ's and Kels 125 Aircoolers that even if you took away the carb restriction the things wont handle more than 30hp at best before thermal melt down. So removing the carb restriction just gets rid of a silly hard to define and police rule around carb size measurement.


Maybe 3 fold. An 85cc MX'r right out of the box (and from a previous thread I think Schetchy has one and wants to use it) should dust any standard or mild 100 2T water cooled bike.

I had one that I built and raced last year at kaitoke for a couple of rounds. The 85 went well. It was a 02 RM85 motor with nothing more than the squish set up and a 28mm flat slide carb and a run on the dyno to setup ignition and jetting in the ball park. It was in the same chassis as my MB100 bucket so was a good comparison. The 85 was harder to ride and for lap times I was 0.2 seconds faster on the MB100. An 85 out of the box wont dust a medium to good 100cc bucket.

I have now pulled the bike apart and got rid of the motor as it was just an experiment to see what the performance of an 85 is actually like in real life, not from hyped up dyno run sheets on the internet.


NO GP ENGINES. I think an air cooled rs125 might go ok. It would mean you could run old air cooled cr 125 engines and the like. Oh and fuck you skinny! Get back in the shed and sort that 320 Honda beast. 110hp should do fine thanks.

Put your glasses back on fool, 2T Competition engines are limited to 85cc Air cooled or water cooled!
I may or may not have already got engmod telling me that it will do 110hp without too much fuss.... I might have to learn to port though!!

[Sketchy_Racer]

So also, if one wanted to submit a rule change how does one go about doing so? Does it need to be submitted to a club to represent the change then they forward it onto MNZ?

[kel]

So also, if one wanted to submit a rule change how does one go about doing so? Does it need to be submitted to a club to represent the change then they forward it onto MNZ?

Not that I'd know anything about this ...

We would like to remind you that all rule changes for 2016 must be submitted to the MNZ Office on the correct form before the 1st of March 2016
To assist you in this process we have links to the correct forms below.
https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/guidelines-to-making-a-rule-change.pdf?sfvrsn=2
https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/rules/application-to-make-a-rule-change---club592afd456e51694ab575ff0000938921.pdf?sfvrsn=2
https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/rules/application-to-make-a-rule-change---commissioner.pdf?sfvrsn=2

[TZ350]

Have we not all learnt from TZ's and Kels 125 Aircoolers that even if you took away the carb restriction the things wont handle more than 30hp at best before thermal melt down.

So removing the carb restriction just gets rid of a silly hard to define and police rule around carb size measurement.

Without the carb restrictions (F4 & F5) and that "S" the current rule blurb looks like this:-

Chapter 16 – Road Racing – Miniature

16.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro
and Go Kart motor and transmission parts are not permitted.

There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility.

All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged.

The current rule blurb without any carb restrictions is just three sentences .... pretty simple.

[TZ350]

Maybe this could work.

Chapter 16 – Road Racing – Miniature

16.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles or home built in whole or part. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motor and transmission parts are not permitted except for the capacities specified.

There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility.

All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged.

Three sentences, now just add suitable capacities.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Maybe this could work.

Chapter 16 – Road Racing – Miniature

16.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles or home built in whole or part. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motor and transmission parts are not permitted except for the capacities specified.

There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility.

All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged.

Three sentences, now just add suitable capacities.\

Love it!

[jasonu]

Have we not all learnt from TZ's and Kels 125 Aircoolers that even if you took away the carb restriction the things wont handle more than 30hp at best before thermal melt down. So removing the carb restriction just gets rid of a silly hard to define and police rule around carb size measurement.

!!

Are you sure thermal melt down due to the 24mm carb is the problem? TZ has said numerous times the 24mm carb isn't the limiting factor and I am still not sure why he is hell bent on getting rid of that rule). I think it is more of an engineering, design and execution issue that holds back the 125's...
If you remove the carb restriction and the 30hp 125 2t air coolers go better and actually hold together (I am not convinced they will) then they should easily dust all of the 100cc 2t water cooled bikes. How is that fair? The 100cc 2t water cooled folks will then want some sort of leveler... then the diesels will want more...
As for 85mx motors, that is the easy way for lazy cunts to get good HP. Put one of those in a (say) NX4 chassis, breath on it a bit, light touch paper and stand back

[Sketchy_Racer]

Are you sure thermal melt down due to the 24mm carb is the problem? TZ has said numerous times the 24mm carb isn't the limiting factor and I am still not sure why he is hell bent on getting rid of that rule). I think it is more of an engineering, design and execution issue that holds back the 125's...
If you remove the carb restriction and the 30hp 125 2t air coolers go better and actually hold together (I am not convinced they will) then they should easily dust all of the 100cc 2t water cooled bikes. How is that fair? The 100cc 2t water cooled folks will then want some sort of leveler... then the diesels will want more...
As for 85mx motors, that is the easy way for lazy cunts to get good HP. Put one of those in a (say) NX4 chassis, breath on it a bit, light touch paper and stand back

I can't imagine that changing the carb will change anything with the thermal issues. If you're making that level of power and you can't improve the thermal efficiency of the motor with fuels like alcohol then you'll always be up against the wall at 30hp. Let's not forget that it is actually quite a challenge to get them to 30hp in the first place.

As for 85s been the easy way out, then yes they are which is the point, because not everyone wants to build motors. As for putting one in a RS chassis and waxing everyone; that combination already exists, it just has "Derbi Racing" on the side of it and is deemed legal aparently.....

[Cheesy]

Now I don’t have a bucket (well actually I do but its for spare parts), and I have never been to a race. But this little corner of the internet is very interesting and a good place to learn from those that contribute their hard earned knowledge. So with that in mind take this suggestion with a grain of salt.
Chapter 16 – Road Racing – Miniature

16.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart engines are not permitted. For the definition of this rule an engine is considered crank cases and cylinder(s)

4T-160cc Naturally Aspirated
4T-110cc Forced Induction
2T-130cc Air Cooled Naturally aspirated
2T-110cc Naturally Aspirated
2T-70cc Forced Induction

Reasoning; overbores are gone and replaced with a hard capacity limit (my numbers may not be correct though), makes the rule simpler. Carburation limit removed as it has been shown that it is not a limit, it also had unintended implications with overbored 100cc 2Ts. Open engine components, simply it opens a wider range of parts that are more easily available, rod kits and pistons are much easier to get for a modern MX bike than an old commuter bike and the parts themselves are not going to give a huge performance advantage. As it is now someone could design a piston and get it custom made, said piston may be exactly the same as some 105cc MX bike but cost 10x as much. Similarly, with transmission parts. Calling an engine a set of cases and cylinder is just an arbitrary line in the sand that seems to keep the spirit of the bucket class as it is now (well to me anyway).
I think allowing the competition engines would open a whole can of worms, they could be good worms or bad worms but it would cause some pretty big changes to the class. Maybe there could be a separate mini supermoto class for the 85s and 150s?

[jasonu]

I can't imagine that changing the carb will change anything with the thermal issues. If you're making that level of power and you can't improve the thermal efficiency of the motor with fuels like alcohol then you'll always be up against the wall at 30hp. Let's not forget that it is actually quite a challenge to get them to 30hp in the first place.

As for 85s been the easy way out, then yes they are which is the point, because not everyone wants to build motors. As for putting one in a RS chassis and waxing everyone; that combination already exists, it just has "Derbi Racing" on the side of it and is deemed legal aparently.....

Yes mate I know just how much work goes into building a competitive reliable decent HP motor.

If you want to include 85cc mx'rs then how long do you think it will take until someone wants to run a CRF150R's as well?

[kel]

Are you sure thermal melt down due to the 24mm carb is the problem? I think it is more of an engineering, design "removed, cheeky bastard" that holds back the 125's...
You are absolutely right, there's an inherent design flaw i.e. air cooling.
Have a look at the air cooled racers and motocrossers from the seventies , they never made the sort of power we are pulling out of these things. The Japanese aren't silly, they could have made more power but they new to win first you have to finish. :crazy:

[husaberg]

Have we not all learnt from TZ's and Kels 125 Aircoolers that even if you took away the carb restriction the things wont handle more than 30hp at best before thermal melt down. So removing the carb restriction just gets rid of a silly hard to define and police rule around carb size measurement.

I!!

If the restriction is so unimportant there thus should be no issue leaving it in place then is there...............
Yhat old silly rule was designed to be a restriction.

No one has explained why all of a sudden all the other bikes CC need to get bigger but not the 100cc 2 strokes.