The journey that COVID-19 will take us on

[Naki Rat]

This opinion piece is a great look at the philosophy of why we have COVID-19, how we're dealing with it and where it will eventually take us. Pull up a chair and a coffee; it's a long read, but well worth the effort.

The Coronation (https://charleseisenstein.org/essays/the...n/?_page=5)

[OddDuck]

I just got to (a rather good) piece titled "The Need For Venture Science", not a mention of Covid-19 anywhere. Is it this?

https://charleseisenstein.org/essays/the-coronation/

[Trade_nancy]

WTF is this crap?

[OddDuck]

Yeah, I have to agree with you Trade_Nancy... it's a bit hippie love-in at the end isn't it?

He's missed humans playing ruthlessly for competitive advantage and completely missed 'sometimes people are just dicks' stuff too. The big picture stuff that the essay started with was good, very thought provoking... shame it went downhill badly toward the end.

[James Deuce]

Yeah, I have to agree with you Trade_Nancy... it's a bit hippie love-in at the end isn't it?

He's missed humans playing ruthlessly for competitive advantage and completely missed 'sometimes people are just dicks' stuff too. The big picture stuff that the essay started with was good, very thought provoking... shame it went downhill badly toward the end.

The shrooms kicked in.

[slofox]

May not be the place to post this, but...

According to something I read recently, about 7 million people die each year as a result of air pollution.

If this many were to die of Covid, the entire world would be filled with weeping, wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

How come we don't react the same to air pollution deaths?

[FJRider]

... How come we don't react the same to air pollution deaths?

Because the deaths mostly occur in 3rd world cities ... or places where it's not mentioned in the papers. Like japan and China.

It's just regarded as a hazard of living in big cities ...

[OddDuck]

May not be the place to post this, but...

According to something I read recently, about 7 million people die each year as a result of air pollution.
During the current pandemic, with lockdowns etc and a vast drop in transport, this number will drop significantly.

If this many were to die of Covid, the entire world would be filled with weeping, wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

How come we don't react the same to air pollution deaths?

The author made that exact point in his article: because air pollution is under our control (or could be), but Covid-19 isn't and therefore is terrifying.

[sidecar bob]

May not be the place to post this, but...

According to something I read recently, about 7 million people die each year as a result of air pollution.
During the current pandemic, with lockdowns etc and a vast drop in transport, this number will drop significantly.

If this many were to die of Covid, the entire world would be filled with weeping, wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

How come we don't react the same to air pollution deaths?

More people have died from vaping in nz than covid so far.
No doubt that is down to the fantastic response to this by our government.

[MaxPenguin]

May not be the place to post this, but...

According to something I read recently, about 7 million people die each year as a result of air pollution.
During the current pandemic, with lockdowns etc and a vast drop in transport, this number will drop significantly.

If this many were to die of Covid, the entire world would be filled with weeping, wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

How come we don't react the same to air pollution deaths?

Air pollution deaths wont significantly drop at all. Air pollution deaths are a long term thing,

[sidecar bob]

Air pollution deaths wont significantly drop at all. Air pollution deaths are a long term thing,

Well then the whole world needs to peak out & go into lockdown about it.

[caspernz]

It's all about perspective, here's a line from an article I read recently:

Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year.

The covid-19 pandemic has so far taken about 110,000 and while I wouldn't want to compare it with the flu, many elements are similar.

The global figures reported at present make it rather plain that China is dodgy :cool:

[slofox]

Air pollution deaths wont significantly drop at all. Air pollution deaths are a long term thing,

Well, yeah, I prolly could have phrased that more betterer.

[MaxPenguin]

Well then the whole world needs to peak out & go into lockdown about it.

I sense a bit of lockdown angst. Chill, it will be over soon.

[sidecar bob]

I sense a bit of lockdown angst. Chill, it will be over soon.

I'm in a happy bubble & am planning to spend a lot more time living this way when it's over.
I'm just seeing a double standard.

[MaxPenguin]

I'm in a happy bubble & am planning to spend a lot more time living this way when it's over.
I'm just seeing a double standard.

I know how you feel about bubble living.

Double standard??

[sidecar bob]

I know how you feel about bubble living.

Double standard??

Not from you, from the govrenments of the world regarding causes of death & their responses to them.

[MaxPenguin]

Not from you, from the govrenments of the world regarding causes of death & their responses to them.

Yeah if you drill down into the causes there are some questions, but I still believe locking down is all we have.

[nerrrd]

Not from you, from the govrenments of the world regarding causes of death & their responses to them.

I don't blame governments, they're being steered into their responses by the medicos, who have all apparently been scared sh*tless by Covid-19.

[mashman]

I'm in a happy bubble & am planning to spend a lot more time living this way when it's over.

I've been doing it for the last 5 years. My everyday simply got better with the kids and missus being told to stay at home :wari:

[sidecar bob]

Yeah if you drill down into the causes there are some questions, but I still believe locking down is all we have.

It probably is. But for example, the total covid deaths in India today stand at around the same as their daily road toll & you don't see them banning cars.
Covid will pass, their daily road toll will likely rise.

[MaxPenguin]

It probably is. But for example, the total covid deaths in India today stand at around the same as their daily road toll & you don't see them banning cars.
Covid will pass, their daily road toll will likely rise.

Yeah but one car crash can't infect all the other cars and cause a whole lot of car crashes that exponentially grows into a car crash Armageddon something like the blues brothers.

[Gearup]

It probably is. But for example, the total covid deaths in India today stand at around the same as their daily road toll & you don't see them banning cars.
Covid will pass, their daily road toll will likely rise.


Covid -19 can kill anyone of any age although certain people are more vulnerable. The road toll is a different issue.

Incidently, Singapore and Korea are reporting a new wave of infections, some in Korea are relapses apparently.

[Naki Rat]

May not be the place to post this, but...

According to something I read recently, about 7 million people die each year as a result of air pollution.
During the current pandemic, with lockdowns etc and a vast drop in transport, this number will drop significantly.

If this many were to die of Covid, the entire world would be filled with weeping, wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

How come we don't react the same to air pollution deaths?The powers that be have villified COVID-19 and thereby made it into a common foe. Easy to do with a potentially lethal invisible threat to any human but not for the threat presented by byproducts of products that many consider essential to everyday life.

Humans are a social species and will unify readily if a threat presents itself such as a predator at the entrance to the cave our ancestors would have faced. That primal instinct has been ignited in the anti COVID-19 campaigns that many governments have initiated. To extend the analogy, dying as a result of the campfire asphyxiating the cave dwellers just doesn't present the same us vs. them opportunity so is more difficult to motivate retaliatory action against.

[Gearup]

The powers that be have villified COVID-19 and thereby made it into a common foe. Easy to do with a potentially lethal invisible threat to any human but not for the threat presented by byproducts of products that many consider essential to everyday life.

Humans are a social species and will unify readily if a threat presents itself such as a predator at the entrance to the cave our ancestors would have faced. That primal instinct has been ignited in the anti COVID-19 campaigns that many governments have initiated. To extend the analogy, dying as a result of the campfire asphyxiating the cave dwellers just doesn't present the same us vs. them opportunity so is more difficult to motivate retaliatory action against.


It doesn't help though when there is denial of the problem ie:India's air pollution is very bad but their Environment Minister recently denied any link between it and premature death. This was despite a study showing there was.

[sidecar bob]

Covid -19 can kill anyone of any age although certain people are more vulnerable. The road toll is a different issue.


Exactly the same really. Can kill anyone of any age through no fault of their own, & certain people are more vulnerable.
I'm not sure if my earlier post was clear, the number of deaths from covid in the entire history of india to date, is almost the same number as their daily road.
In other words you have as much chance of being killed there in a traffic accident in one day, as all covid deaths combined ever.
I think their traffic issues are far greater than their covid ones, but meh, can't help traffic deaths ay?

[Gearup]

Exactly the same really. Can kill anyone of any age through no fault of their own, & certain people are more vulnerable.
I'm not sure if my earlier post was clear, the number of deaths from covid in the entire history of india to date, is almost the same number as their daily road.
In other words you have as much chance of being killed there in a traffic accident in one day, as all covid deaths combined ever.
I think their traffic issues are far greater than their covid ones, but meh, can't help traffic deaths ay?


Well you can address the road toll problem but this is what they've been really crap at doing over there. For example only recently has something positive been done about it in the form of a National Safety Strategy etc.

The place has major issues though: Really bad drivers, drunk drivers galore, mixing slow and fast traffic to name a few.

[MaxPenguin]

Exactly the same really. Can kill anyone of any age through no fault of their own, & certain people are more vulnerable.
I'm not sure if my earlier post was clear, the number of deaths from covid in the entire history of india to date, is almost the same number as their daily road.
In other words you have as much chance of being killed there in a traffic accident in one day, as all covid deaths combined ever.
I think their traffic issues are far greater than their covid ones, but meh, can't help traffic deaths ay?

So what should India do? Lockdown until all the road deaths go away? First day of lockdown they have stopped so let everyone out again and people die again rinse and repeat. Covid isn't like that.

[Naki Rat]

It doesn't help though when there is denial of the problem ie:India's air pollution is very bad but their Environment Minister recently denied any link between it and premature death. This was despite a study showing there was.As per my analogy the caveman probably argued that he needed his campfire but the threat from the sabre-tooth tiger was undeniable and, more compellingly, immediate.

[sidecar bob]

So what should India do? Lockdown until all the road deaths go away? First day of lockdown they have stopped so let everyone out again and people die again rinse and repeat. Covid isn't like that.

Well its killing innocent people & a precedent has been set by the dangerous plague that's killed as many people all told as car crashes do in a day, seems logical, good thinking on your part.

[sidecar bob]

Now I hear on the news this afternoon that going back to normal is an unprecedented challenge that we will need to manage carefully.
Is it some peoples job to over think this shit, its called normal, the clue is in the name & this country has decades of precedent at doing it for fucks sake.
I get the feeling that "normal" isint what is wanted in the future by the powers that be.

[MaxPenguin]

Well its killing innocent people & a precedent has been set by the dangerous plague that's killed as many people all told as car crashes do in a day, seems logical, good thinking on your part.

And if left unchecked what happens with coronavirus?

[sidecar bob]

And if left unchecked what happens with coronavirus?

Well clearly the entire country will peak out.

[FJRider]

Now I hear on the news this afternoon that going back to normal is an unprecedented challenge that we will need to manage carefully.
Is it some peoples job to over think this shit, its called normal, the clue is in the name & this country has decades of precedent at doing it for fucks sake.

If it's on the news it must be true ... right .. ?? All it takes for this comment to be "news" worthy ... is one journo' to take it seriously.

Normal before AND after COVID-19 will be different. Probably in ways we never ever considered before. The favourite cafe or shop that was a daily/weekly stop may never open again. EVER. Those reopening will put measures in place to reduce issues, should another pandemic re-occur in the future. I can see contracts re-drawn to cover employment/wage issues, not of the employers making ... like staff not being allowed to work due to pandemic events (and loss of work insurance policy's becoming popular).

There will be things we will have to manage carefully. After lockdown people will start to move around ... some may still be carrying the virus. Take care one and all ... <_<

[sidecar bob]

If it's on the news it must be true ... right .. ?? All it takes for this comment to be "news" worthy ... is one journo' to take it seriously.

Normal before AND after COVID-19 will be different. Probably in ways we never ever considered before. The favourite cafe or shop that was a daily/weekly stop may never open again. EVER. Those reopening will put measures in place to reduce issues, should another pandemic re-occur in the future. I can see contracts re-drawn to cover employment/wage issues, not of the employers making ... like staff not being allowed to work due to pandemic events (and loss of work insurance policy's becoming popular).

There will be things we will have to manage carefully. After lockdown people will start to move around ... some may still be carrying the virus. Take care one and all ... <_<

I'm quite surprised at the number of businesses that even with a third party paying the wages, that will apparently only take a month to go under.

[FJRider]

I'm quite surprised at the number of businesses that even with a third party paying the wages, that will apparently only take a month to go under.

Bankruptcy may be easier to deal with than paying the bills. Buildings leased or owned ... money owed prior (to covid-19) ... and income from the business prior all play their part in such decisions.

Those intending to open a business ... start an "Essential" business .... ;)

[MaxPenguin]

I'm quite surprised at the number of businesses that even with a third party paying the wages, that will apparently only take a month to go under.

A lot of restaurants/cafes can't even stay open on public holidays without charging a surcharge to cover penal rates, so what does that tell you.

[sidecar bob]

Bankruptcy may be easier to deal with than paying the bills. Buildings leased or owned ... money owed prior (to covid-19) ... and income from the business prior all play their part in such decisions.

Those intending to open a business ... start an "Essential" business .... ;)

Yeah, no doubt it's a fantastic opportunity for some to blame their own impending business failure on something other than themselves.

[sidecar bob]

A lot of restaurants/cafes can't even stay open on public holidays without charging a surcharge to cover penal rates, so what does that tell you.

That theres something seriously wrong with their business model.

[MaxPenguin]

That theres something seriously wrong with their business model.

Yes, or maybe some businesses are vulnerable at the moment. E.h. big loans new owners etc.

[BMWST?]

I'm in a happy bubble & am planning to spend a lot more time living this way when it's over.
I'm just seeing a double standard.
because being anti air pollution is anti establishment...air pollution is a function of the fabled economy and big busuness, thereore is good for the world.Its unfortunate thats its also bad for some peope

[FJRider]

Yeah, no doubt it's a fantastic opportunity for some to blame their own impending business failure on something other than themselves.

The summer tourist/weekend/holiday type businesses were already struggling ... the one's that make enough to see them over the winter.

There will be record numbers unemployed this winter.

[FJRider]

That theres something seriously wrong with their business model.

Pretty much ... they expect Joe Public to pay their staff's wages on Public Holidays. Good quality food and service can stand the same prices every day.

Although some places are more popular to be seen in ... rather than for the quality of food and service.

[sidecar bob]

Pretty much ... they expect Joe Public to pay their staff's wages on Public Holidays. Good quality food and service can stand the same prices every day.

Although some places are more popular to be seen in ... rather than for the quality of food and service.

The smart move would be to charge 10% more every day & advertise no surcharge on public holiday.:msn-wink: win win.

[caspernz]

The smart move would be to charge 10% more every day & advertise no surcharge on public holiday.:msn-wink: win win.

Absolutely right.

Sad fact is many a small business owner is unrealistic about true operating costs.

[Berries]

The smart move would be to charge 10% more every day & advertise no surcharge on public holiday.:msn-wink: win win.
Pretty sure 1% would have done it. Instead they lost my business.

Now Burger King is going down the tubes I don't know where I will turn.

[MaxPenguin]

The smart move would be to charge 10% more every day & advertise no surcharge on public holiday.:msn-wink: win win.

Wouldn't have to be 10%. It's what budgets are for. Spread out over a fiscal year it woul be sweet fuck all margin added to everything they sell, same as any other business cost. Blows my mind the places that charge a surcharge to the point I won't eat there.

[R650R]

I get the feeling that "normal" isint what is wanted in the future by the powers that be.

Apparenty technology is progressing at the extreme rate that in 10 years the amount of jobless will be undescribable. An interesting conspiracy article articulated that this virus and lockdown is a bit of a soft reset/cull before we get to that point. Our world population has gone from 2 billion to 7 billion pretty much in the short time of the industrial revolution which enabled mass food production. If its true that we are running out of oil mega agriculture doesn't work under an electric powered world...

[Naki Rat]

.... If its true that we are running out of oil mega agriculture doesn't work under an electric powered world...Powering farm vehicles and machinery with electricity isn't an issue. The real problem as we wean ourselves off of oil is the manufacturing of the soluble fertilisers that food production have become reliant on; nitrogen fertilisers in particular. And the transportation of produce and its products across the Earth will be seen for the folly that it is, especially in regard to the importation of these into a food producing country such as ours.

[MaxPenguin]

Apparenty technology is progressing at the extreme rate that in 10 years the amount of jobless will be undescribable. An interesting conspiracy article articulated that this virus and lockdown is a bit of a soft reset/cull before we get to that point. Our world population has gone from 2 billion to 7 billion pretty much in the short time of the industrial revolution which enabled mass food production. If its true that we are running out of oil mega agriculture doesn't work under an electric powered world...

Why not stop technology that cuts out jobs, it's only purpose is to make a few more wealthy anyway. Also who is going to buy there products? Meh, more to.e to relax.

[FJRider]

The smart move would be to charge 10% more every day & advertise no surcharge on public holiday.:msn-wink: win win.

I would say that those that advertise that no surcharge is added ... are doing exactly that. Busy holiday weekends should get more customers in anyway.

Quality food and service should be the best advertising. But if the punters are willing to pay the extra ... who are we to argue ... :2thumbsup

[FJRider]

Why not stop technology that cuts out jobs, it's only purpose is to make a few more wealthy anyway. Also who is going to buy there products? Meh, more to.e to relax.

Technology plays a part in job availability ... but it plays a large part in creating a different skill requirement. Technology may cut worker numbers in some areas ... usually in repetitive ... low paid ... non-skilled ... factory type work. Where staff turnover is greatest. All in the interest of cost cutting and lower end costs ... apparently ... :calm:

Why are kids being let loose from schools with no (or little) on the job training for their future employment ??? ;)

Many with a university degree and still no job ... or ideas what they might want to do ... :scratch:

I think it's time work skills and on the job training plays a bigger part in youth education. They can then concentrate their education ... on getting the qualifications they need ... for the job they want. Keep them in school until they get employment.

Some leave high school with no idea what they want to do. And with no work ethic been instilled in them.

[sidecar bob]

Pretty sure 1% would have done it. Instead they lost my business.

Now Burger King is going down the tubes I don't know where I will turn.

I agree that mathematically that's true, but if you're operating so close to the breadline that you have to charge extra on certain days when overheads are higher, then 10% every day will push it into the black a bit more effectively.
Yeah Burger King, they should have sent a rep from head office to take the shops to task for having filthy eating areas, with soft drink & chips all over the floor, maybe people wouldn't have been grossed out & gone somewhere else.

[husaberg]

Powering farm vehicles and machinery with electricity isn't an issue. The real problem as we wean ourselves off of oil is the manufacturing of the soluble fertilisers that food production have become reliant on; nitrogen fertilisers in particular. And the transportation of produce and its products across the Earth will be seen for the folly that it is, especially in regard to the importation of these into a food producing country such as ours.

Using nitrogen fertilizers increases production and yields. it ensures aour animals are feed in times of shortages.
Without it you have to accept a higher cost of production and or a lower yield.
I agree with the coal to Newcastle ,but NZ is the most efficient and chemically safe dairy farmers and beef farmers in the world we can produce and ship it around the world for lower carbon output and pollution than other counties we supply can. there are also economies of scale to be figured in.

[Naki Rat]

Using nitrogen fertilizers increases production and yields. it ensures aour animals are feed in times of shortages.
Without it you have to accept a higher cost of production and or a lower yield.
I agree with the coal to Newcastle ,but NZ is the most efficient and chemically safe dairy farmers and beef farmers in the world we can produce and ship it around the world for lower carbon output and pollution than other counties we supply can. there are also economies of scale to be figured in.Nitrogen fertilisers deplete topsoil/humus over time. Hence the term "rich father, poor son"fertiliser. If soils are treated respectfully they will produce all the nitrogen required for most agriculture and horticulture production. Check out https://www.integritysoils.co.nz/product/for-the-love-of-soil/ for how it is done successfully across multiple countries.


https://youtu.be/5DKOPmxgjJ0

Feeding livestock in times of shortage used to be done by way of hay or silage. These days the production of agricultural systems is all too often heavily reliant on imported feed including PKE and molasses, at the mercy of importation costs and exchange rates. That is not the sign of a sustainable production system and is one of the reasons over leveraged farmers often struggle to cope with the realities of their investment with lethal results. Did you factor that production cost into your calculations?

[Katman]

Did you factor that production cost into your calculations?

Calculations?

Methinks you give him far too much credit.

[husaberg]

Nitrogen fertilisers deplete topsoil/humus over time. Hence the term "rich father, poor son"fertiliser. If soils are treated respectfully they will produce all the nitrogen required for most agriculture and horticulture production. Check out https://www.integritysoils.co.nz/product/for-the-love-of-soil/ for how it is done successfully across multiple countries.


https://youtu.be/5DKOPmxgjJ0

Feeding livestock in times of shortage used to be done by way of hay or silage. These days the production of agricultural systems is all too often heavily reliant on imported feed including PKE and molasses, at the mercy of importation costs and exchange rates. That is not the sign of a sustainable production system and is one of the reasons over leveraged farmers often struggle to cope with the realities of their investment with lethal results. Did you factor that production cost into your calculations?

Nitrogen converts organic matter into plant soluble matter as well as inceasing growth.
try seeing what it does to sawdust.
If you think you can make the most of plant or animal yields without it, you are sadly mistaken.
Nitrogen is a growth multiplier, A tool to maximize yields.
Same as gilliberal acid, they are tools to increase productivity they are not the devil, there is strict guidelines on their use.
nutrients harvested by meat of herbage crops need to be replaced abd factors preventing crops and animals reaching full productivity removed
conserving feed is a high pollutant and has a high cost and losses in feeding and making it, Silage leach-age is far worse pollutant than raw effluent.
Like i said we can happily farm without nitrogen it if people will accept lower yields and higher cost.
there are competition fo land so its use has to be efficient.
Housing subdivisions in pukekohe and into the wiakato is not going to feed NZ or the world.



It has been posited that half the current world’s population would not have been born if it were not for the invention of ammonia fertiliser by German scientists Haber and Bosch in the early 20th century. This is because of the essential requirement of N by plants and animals, and hence food production, to support world population growth. The element nitrogen (N), is the seventh element in the periodic table and is one of the 19 elements essential for life on planet Earth. Despite this, all known life on Earth is referred to as carbon-based lifeforms and it would be impossible for life on Earth to exist without carbon (C) because it is the main component (approximately 45-50% of dry biomass) of most tissues in living things.

Protein synthesis

Carbon is basic to life because it can form stable bonds with many elements, which allows it to form up to 10 million carbon- based molecules in living organisms. Carbon bound to hydrogen (H) and oxygen (O) form the carbohydrates, which are the building blocks of compounds from simple sugars used for energy to structural lignin (eg, wood) in plants. The ability of C to bond with N (together with H and O) forms the building blocks for protein formation.

Proteins are essential in living organisms because they do most of the work in living cells, in terms of structure, function and regulation of tissues. Proteins, and hence N, are essential for making cell membranes, enzymes and nucleic acids (ie, DNA), transporting oxygen, being part of the immune system and messaging between cells.

Food production

All plants, for both human and animal consumption, extract most of their N requirements from the soil solution. Soil solution N is derived mostly from the organic matter in the soil, which is mineralised (decomposed) by the action of soil micro-organisms, as well as from N fertilisers. Soil organic matter accumulates from death and decay of uneaten leaves and stems, dung and urine, crop residues including roots.

Plants take up soil N as either ammonium or nitrate ions and use these to produce amino acids and proteins. Legumes, eg, clovers, lucerne, beans and peas, can form symbiotic relationships with a group of soil bacteria from the Rhizobium family. Legumes allow rhizobia to infect their root systems to form nodules within which rhizobia extract nitrogen gas from the air to form ammonium ions. The rhizobia exchange some of this ammonium in return for carbohydrate (energy) supplies from the legume host. Trial work has shown that in grazed-pasture situations N fixation by legumes can contribute between 25-150kg

N/ha/year (depending on clover content, climate, topography and slope) to the N cycle. Free-living N fixing microorganisms also live in soils and make a small contribution to the N cycle. Animals and humans get proteins and amino acids from eating plants and then synthesise their own proteins from these.

The N cycle in agricultural systems is leaky and losses of N from soil to the air as ammonia, nitrogen gas or nitrous oxide occur under certain soil conditions and contribute to greenhouse gas emission. Surplus N in soils (from excess fertiliser

N or urine of grazing animals) can contribute to N in drainage water, which affects receiving-water quality. Therefore, we must all try to make the N cycle as efficient as possible so that we can enjoy the benefits of healthy, nutritious food production while minimising any effects on the environment we all live in.Dr Ants Roberts



"People hear things like artificial fertilisers are bad because they're chemicals and destroy soil life and cause soil compaction and all that sort of thing. That's complete rubbish, often with no scientific proof of efficacy behind it. The essential concept in New Zealand farming is that we use fertiliser nutrients to create a soil environment to maximise the production of white clover. And why do we do that? Because it's a very good, nutritious feed from which animals produce milk, meat or fibre very effectively.

White clover is the key to New Zealand's huge success as a farming nation because of the entirely natural biochemical process that takes place beneath our feet.

"Soil living bacteria called rhizobia infect the roots of legumes like white clover, and swellings or nodules form on the roots. The rhizobia extract nitrogen gas (N2) from the air, convert it to ammonium ions and supply these to the clover for it to make into essential amino acids and proteins. In return, the 'bugs' get carbohydrates from the plant and so it's a symbiotic relationship, and that is called biological nitrogen fixation."

Another common misconception is that nitrogen-based fertilisers like urea are toxic.

"Of course, you can get farmers who incorrectly use nitrogen fertilisers," says Dr Roberts. "But principally, all the nitrogen that you hear about that is "leaking" out into waterways is coming from urea in the urine of grazing animals, and most of that nitrogen comes from that originally fixed by white clover and the recycling of N from soil organic matter. N fertiliser use does add to this 'pool' of N cycling from the soil to the plant to the animal."

Then there is the idea that chemical fertilisers kill off natural soil bacteria, something Dr Roberts categorically denies.

"There is good published science science to prove you produce more. If you manage your soils to produce more pasture, and graze it so the dung and urine is returned to the grazed area, then this provides more food for everything that lives in the soil which leads to an increase in microorganism numbers and activity. We get accused of not considering the balance of nutrients but that's rubbish, we just don't talk about it in the same way as some of the people using alternative products because we know there are many of the essential major and trace elements which our soils will supply without us having to add any.

[eldog]

A lot of restaurants/cafes can't even stay open on public holidays without charging a surcharge to cover penal rates, so what does that tell you.

perhaps a few things

- the cost of materials and/or labour is too high
- the amount of patronage is too low (or big lulls between rushes) mid morning, lunch, avro smoko etc
- the goods aren't up to scratch
- the service is shit
- the amount the owners are taking is too high
- I have also heard of managers skimming off the top, the owners left with nothing and the staff start a new shop just round the corner
- unclean
- number and cleanliness of toilets (a job I had for a very short time) some people are animals (I would pay for nice toilets Opotiki?, even though I wouldn't want to)
- hate going to pubs with 1 toilet and its usually a mess
- there is a lot of hidden costs to running such a business.
- if its an owner operator - they get sick and tired of working even on the holidays
- need to invent/have something for people to come regularily - all year round - opportunity to pan for gold?

Its in the wrong position/location
A big franchise eg BP Cafe has just opened in town - check out Taihape - I am sure most of the shops there notice this on a week weekend, people will stop at BP fuel and get a snack at the Cafe. Similar at Army base further south. Although the pizza place wasn't too bad last time I was through there - Cold and wet.

Not too many people stopping at remote locations on my recent Sth Is tour. they were all in a hurry to get to next motel or place of rest. Always on a time limit.
If I had more $ and more time, I would have stopped more often, its nice to see/talk to people and observe they live-some places have bugger all.

I know of a Takeaway shop which used to do a roaring trade - food excellent, price not bad, good service, quick service etc.
Sold it, new owners tried to make it cheaper (the usual) I gave it a few tries and gave up, prices up, food was shit, 6 months later closed.

If the economy suffers then extravagant things like lattes and burn outs by the boys will be reduced.
(the number of burn outs has reduced a lot recently to what it used to be like.)
I don't mind the burnouts per se. They come they burn out and bugger off - mostly in off peak times - no one suffers.

Its the dickheads that do it and racing during normal working hours that stupid....

Courier drivers think they are invincible and just cross roads without looking too complacent.

[Naki Rat]

Nitrogen converts organic matter into plant soluble matter as well as inceasing growth.
try seeing what it does to sawdust.
If you think you can make the most of plant or animal yields without it, you are sadly mistaken.
Nitrogen is a growth multiplier, A tool to maximize yields.
Same as gilliberal acid, they are tools to increase productivity they are not the devil, there is strict guidelines on their use.
nutrients harvested by meat of herbage crops need to be replaced abd factors preventing crops and animals reaching full productivity removed
conserving feed is a high pollutant and has a high cost and losses in feeding and making it, Silage leach-age is far worse pollutant than raw effluent.
Like i said we can happily farm without nitrogen it if people will accept lower yields and higher cost.
there are competition fo land so its use has to be efficient.
Housing subdivisions in pukekohe and into the wiakato is not going to feed NZ or the world.The process that nitrogen fuels in decomposing sawdust is replicated in the OM (carbon) that is the major constituent of topsoil, which supports the issue I raised. The biota mass contained in the soil of a biologically active farm system is immense and the life cycles of the organisms that make up that biome produce copious nitrogen as they die and decompose. Your underground livestock mass is multitudes greater than that above ground. As that biological mass reduces with constant use of soluble nitrogen fertilisers the nitrogen generating capacity of those organisms decline and so dependency on nitrogen fertiliser increases, like an addiction. Remember too that our atmosphere is composed of 78% nitrogen which is freely available to legumes and nitrogen fixing bacteria.

Your comparison to the growth hormone gibberilic acid is quite apt as both it and N are dependent on existing soil content to generate plant growth.

In our own case our 2.5 ha drystock lifestyle property receives annual applications of composted poultry manure product with RPR, magnesium and calcium added. The chicken manure is composted to stabilise the N and to foster biological activation in the soil it is spread on.
(https://www.osflo.co.nz/product/osflo-organic-fertiliser/)The actual N content is only 3%. I see our approach as for more efficient than constantly and increasingly applying mineral salts to address deficiencies driven by leaching of minerals in soluble salt form with runoffs then exacerbated by excessive stock levels producing more urine than soils can possibly absorb.

You seem to have some knowledge of soil science so you will probably appreciate the information contained in the book I linked to earlier.

[husaberg]

The process that nitrogen fuels in decomposing sawdust is replicated in the OM (carbon) that is the major constituent of topsoil, which supports the issue I raised. The biota mass contained in the soil of a biologically active farm system is immense and the life cycles of the organisms that make up that biome produce copious nitrogen as they die and decompose. Your underground livestock mass is multitudes greater than that above ground. As that biological mass reduces with constant use of soluble nitrogen fertilisers the nitrogen generating capacity of those organisms decline and so dependency on nitrogen fertiliser increases, like an addiction. Remember too that our atmosphere is composed of 78% nitrogen which is freely available to legumes and nitrogen fixing bacteria.

Your comparison to the growth hormone gibberilic acid is quite apt as both it and N are dependent on existing soil content to generate plant growth.

In our own case our 2.5 ha drystock lifestyle property receives annual applications of composted poultry manure product with RPR, magnesium and calcium added. The chicken manure is composted to stabilise the N and to foster biological activation in the soil it is spread on.
(https://www.osflo.co.nz/product/osflo-organic-fertiliser/)The actual N content is only 3%. I see our approach as for more efficient than constantly and increasingly applying mineral salts to address deficiencies driven by leaching of minerals in soluble salt form with runoffs then exacerbated by excessive stock levels producing more urine than soils can possibly absorb.

You seem to have some knowledge of soil science so you will probably appreciate the information contained in the book I linked to earlier.

2.5 ha, i have farmed and developed land for decades i have developed pakahi and forrest terrace and even silt river flats.
SO i would be impressed if you provide me with the calculations on how adding iNtrogen would not increase your production many fold. because simple science says it will.
Also and just now many 100 of billions of chickens we will need to ferilise the 13,9 million ha of farms in NZ using a no N method and its lower yields.
Even just the extra man power and fuel that would eed to be used to cart and store this cheicken compost
Where and how are we going to grow the chicken feed to feed the grow the 100's billion chickens.
Yes as i said N is a growth multiplier and relies on correcting PH and basic soil deficiencies ofPK and S and the other nutrients. so why insinuate i said anything other.
You can grow crops and pasture without it just no where near as efficiently so to maintain the same yields we need to clear more land or accept lower yields and higher prices.
I stated this directly
RPR is imported we only have a smal local source of serpentine at Dunedin as far as i know. it ld relies on soil acididly to become plant available.
NZ does not have the chickens or the land available tosupport them required to produce the manure to fertilize NZ.
Dr Ants Roberts is a no bullshit scientist respected by the entire farming community who hacs dedicated himself throughout his entire career.
How is it you and your duck know more.

T
he OECD describes nitrogen as one of the most important elements in life on earth, adding about half the world’s population relies on nitrogen fertilisers for food.
there is no proof fertilisers pollute rivers.
Animals can and last year sewerage outflow from local government increased a massive 379% according to an independent survey by Water NZ.
Also, according to the Prime Minister’s former science adviser Sir Peter Gluckman, some water bodies are in a good state but others have been significantly compromised by agriculture intensification, urban expansion, industrial pollution, hydro-electric development or the effects of drought.
Nowhere was either Ballance or Ravensdown mentioned.
Gluckman went on to say our most polluted waterways are in urban, not rural areas, and the fertiliser co-operatives have no control over anything that happens there.
In addition, there is a NIWA report to the Ministry for the Environment that claims the impact of rainfall means storm water picks up sediment, rubbish, contaminants and dog and bird droppings.
Greenpeace made these signs and as a result the Advertising Standards Authority upheld the complaint over the Greenpeace billboard claiming Ravensdown and Ballance pollute rivers.
They were forced to remove them.
https://farmersweekly.co.nz/#Alan Emerson
https://farmersweekly.co.nz/assets/uploaded-files/2019-03/greenpeace-flat.jpg


the Greenpeace accusations that nitrogen is NZ’s hidden climate killer read a 2017 NZ government report to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.
It dealt with our emissions by sector between 1990 and 2015.
The energy sector emissions increased by 36.7% over that period, industrial processes and product use by 47.3% and agriculture by just 16%.
So, during a time when cow numbers increased by 88% and nitrogen fertiliser use increased 500% our emissions increased by just 16%. That alone makes the Greenpeace statement that synthetic nitrogen fertiliser is NZ’s hidden climate change killer wrong in fact.
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development recently released a report entitled Human Acceleration of the Nitrogen Cycle, Managing Risk and Uncertainty.
It is a good read from a highly credible organisation.
It does point out nitrogen is one of the most important elements for life on earth and about half the world’s population relies on nitrogen fertilisers for food consumption, making nitrogen fundamental to global food security.
The OECD also tells us nitrogen will be increasingly essential to global food security as the population grows to an estimated 9.7 billion by 2050.

The OECD document is fascinating. You can read that the majority of nitrogen excretion is from manure and not fertiliser.
It also states natural sources create some 60% of total nitrogen dioxide emissions. Of the 40% attributed to human activity just two-thirds of that comes from agriculture.

The other fact to consider is that nitrogen in NZ is incredibly low by world standards.
We have a nitrogen imbalance of 63kg per hectare compared with the UK at 87 and the Netherlands at 199.
Nitrogen does emit greenhouse gases but most of them come from non-farming sources.
https://farmersweekly.co.nz/#Alan Emerson

[Naki Rat]

2.5 ha, i have farmed and developed land for decades i have developed pakahi and forrest terrace and even silt river flats.
SO i would be impressed if you provide me with the calculations on how adding iNtrogen would not increase your production many fold. because simple science says it will.
Also and just now many 100 of billions of chickens we will need to ferilise the 13,9 million ha of farms in NZ using a no N method and its lower yields.
Even just the extra man power and fuel that would eed to be used to cart and store this cheicken compost
Where and how are we going to grow the chicken feed to feed the grow the 100's billion chickens.
Yes as i said N is a growth multiplier and relies on correcting PH and basic soil deficiencies ofPK and S and the other nutrients. so why insinuate i said anything other.
You can grow crops and pasture without it just no where near as efficiently so to maintain the same yields we need to clear more land or accept lower yields and higher prices.
I stated this directly
RPR is imported we only have a smal local source of serpentine at Dunedin as far as i know. it ld relies on soil acididly to become plant available.
NZ does not have the chickens or the land available tosupport them required to produce the manure to fertilize NZ.
Dr Ants Roberts is a no bullshit scientist respected by the entire farming community who hacs dedicated himself throughout his entire career.
How is it you and your duck know more.

For The Love of Soil (https://www.integritysoils.co.nz/product/for-the-love-of-soil/) addresses and answers most of the issues you raise in support of synthetic fertiliser based farming. There's no point in resorting to extensive cut/pasting from it to support this.

Regarding the use of poultry manure based products to stimulate soil biological activity this can just as effectively be done using fish waste based products and a wide variety of other nitrogen rich products. Even the 180 chicken farm in NZ aren't going to come close to providing the fertiliser requirements of our farming sector particularly if you are using the elemental N export/input model.

Your reference to RPR is correct in that it requires soil acidity to activate it into a soil soluble form. Of course this is done chemically by using sulphuric acid to produce super phosphate, which in term has an acidifying effect on soils which then needs to be addressed by way of heavy liming. In a biologically active soil this acidification occurs from the action of humic acids. Also the limited supply of RPR globally is seen as a future limiting factor for our farming sector as this is an element sadly lacking in our own soils. One upside to reduced RPR importation will be a linked reduction of the cadmium content in our soils (http://flrc.massey.ac.nz/workshops/17/Manuscripts/Paper_TaylorM_2017.pdf), pastures and meat and dairy products which has already become an alarming potential barrier to exports of our produce to many countries. Along with the USDA's increased sensitivity to the use of CCA treated fencing, the European's moves to limit food miles and the coming restrictions and cost transferral related to climate change activities, it is yet another case of our 'chickens coming home to roost' in regard to our long established farming practices that are now recognised as having significant downstream effects.

In regard to your pasted text I have had sufficient exposure to academics and other so called experts in my time in university, orcharding and Organics certification bodies to be very wary of the financial interests that often shape their opinions. As in all political and business information streams it is a matter of 'following the money'.

The ongoing theme that Nicola follows in her book is that less can usually be more. The farmer's primary driver is their bottom line but their is more than just increased production levels that are key to maximising profits. Many of those that are now practicing regenerative agricultural successfully enjoy major savings in fertiliser inputs as well as animal health cost reductions. I've also seen many examples of well run Organic farming enterprises reduce their vet bills to a fraction of those they paid under conventional farming practices. Those sort of savings offset the reduced stocking levels to a significant degree so therefore the threat of reduced income and more expensive produce isn't what many from conventional farming mindsets portray.

In particular New Zealand is probably the farthest from its major markets of any trading nation and therefore we have the best reason to be adding value to our exported products. The more is better model just isn't going to work for us as this isolation increasingly adds to the costs we must incur in getting our produce to market. Selling whole sheep carcasses went down the tubes largely for this reason but we are still exporting milk with the water removed as a large proportion of our dairy exports. And I don't need to explain the folly of exporting whole logs. We must add value to our exported produce in order to maintain its viability. We need to fill the same amount of shipping containers with more valuable contents rather than filling more containers with the same low value dross. Sustainably produced primary produce is a step in the direction we must take to maintain relevance in international markets and the inward reflection that will happen as we move forward from this dark period will make our customers increasingly sensitive to their wants and needs, particularly in terms of the health of them and their environment. This is a huge potential marketing opportunity for New Zealand if we will only recognise its real implications.

[husaberg]

For The Love of Soil (https://www.integritysoils.co.nz/product/for-the-love-of-soil/) addresses and answers most of the issues you raise in support of synthetic fertiliser based farming. There's no point in resorting to extensive cut/pasting from it to support this.

Regarding the use of poultry manure based products to stimulate soil biological activity this can just as effectively be done using fish waste based products and a wide variety of other nitrogen rich products. Even the 180 chicken farm in NZ aren't going to come close to providing the fertiliser requirements of our farming sector particularly if you are using the elemental N export/input model.

Your reference to RPR is correct in that it requires soil acidity to activate it into a soil soluble form. Of course this is done chemically by using sulphuric acid to produce super phosphate, which in term has an acidifying effect on soils which then needs to be addressed by way of heavy liming. In a biologically active soil this acidification occurs from the action of humic acids. Also the limited supply of RPR globally is seen as a future limiting factor for our farming sector as this is an element sadly lacking in our own soils. One upside to reduced RPR importation will be a linked reduction of the cadmium content in our soils (http://flrc.massey.ac.nz/workshops/17/Manuscripts/Paper_TaylorM_2017.pdf), pastures and meat and dairy products which has already become an alarming potential barrier to exports of our produce to many countries. Along with the USDA's increased sensitivity to the use of CCA treated fencing, the European's moves to limit food miles and the coming restrictions and cost transferral related to climate change activities, it is yet another case of our 'chickens coming home to roost' in regard to our long established farming practices that are now recognised as having significant downstream effects.

In regard to your pasted text I have had sufficient exposure to academics and other so called experts in my time in university, orcharding and Organics certification bodies to be very wary of the financial interests that often shape their opinions. As in all political and business information streams it is a matter of 'following the money'.

The ongoing theme that Nicola follows in her book is that less can usually be more. The farmer's primary driver is their bottom line but their is more than just increased production levels that are key to maximising profits. Many of those that are now practicing regenerative agricultural successfully enjoy major savings in fertiliser inputs as well as animal health cost reductions. I've also seen many examples of well run Organic farming enterprises reduce their vet bills to a fraction of those they paid under conventional farming practices. Those sort of savings offset the reduced stocking levels to a significant degree so therefore the threat of reduced income and more expensive produce isn't what many from conventional farming mindsets portray.

In particular New Zealand is probably the farthest from its major markets of any trading nation and therefore we have the best reason to be adding value to our exported products. The more is better model just isn't going to work for us as this isolation increasingly adds to the costs we must incur in getting our produce to market. Selling whole sheep carcasses went down the tubes largely for this reason but we are still exporting milk with the water removed as a large proportion of our dairy exports. And I don't need to explain the folly of exporting whole logs. We must add value to our exported produce in order to maintain its viability. We need to fill the same amount of shipping containers with more valuable contents rather than filling more containers with the same low value dross. Sustainably produced primary produce is a step in the direction we must take to maintain relevance in international markets and the inward reflection that will happen as we move forward from this dark period will make our customers increasingly sensitive to their wants and needs, particularly in terms of the health of them and their environment. This is a huge potential marketing opportunity for New Zealand if we will only recognise its real implications.

If you cant answer the questions say so.
The world can't be fed on good intentions........
Whilst i am sure you mean well you suggestions are not viable in any scale much past a backyard level
You really need to think stuff through in regards to scale.
You talk of transport and efficiencies for export yet expect someone to transport a low active ingredient compost on a vast scale compared to highly concentrated fertilizers..:msn-wink:
Not to mention how you are going to generate the required level of compost.
Tell what the 100's of billions of chickens and fish are going to eat to make the fertiliser.
Instead of refering people to read your bible give us the answers that are scientifically robust


To have raised all U.S. crops as organic in 2014 would have required farming of 109 million more acres of land. That is an area equivalent to all the parkland and wildland areas in the lower 48 states, or 1.8 times as much as all the urban land in the nation.

[Naki Rat]

If you cant answer the questions say so.
The world can't be fed on good intentions........
Whilst i am sure you mean well you suggestions are not viable in any scale past a backyard level
You really need to think stuff through in regards to scale.
you talk of transport and efficiencies for export yet expect someone to transport a low active ingredient compost on a vast scale compared to highly concentrated fertilizers..:msn-wink:
Not to mention how you are going to generate the required level of compost.
Tell what the 100's of billions of chickens and fish are going to eat to make the fertiliser."Low active ingredient compost" indicates that you just don't get the biological component of the issue.

As I said, read the book so I'm not going to paste screeds of information here to address your lack of understanding of the mechanics of regenerative farming. Some of the case studies quoted in that book relate to very large acreage holdings in AU and USA so can hardly be regarded as "backyard level" enterprises.


To have raised all U.S. crops as organic in 2014 would have required farming of 109 million more acres of land. That is an area equivalent to all the parkland and wildland areas in the lower 48 states, or 1.8 times as much as all the urban land in the nation.

I'm guessing that this is based on mineral replacement ideology. In reality most of the minerals required to support plant growth are already present in the soil profile; it's just a matter of stimulating the soil biology to access that reservoir.

If you're averse to gaining knowledge from a book then maybe this video presentation by the book's author will open your mind to its perspective:
https://www.facebook.com/IntegritySoils/videos/702657700245527/

[husaberg]

"Low active ingredient compost" indicates that you just don't get the biological component of the issue.

As I said, read the book so I'm not going to paste screeds of information here to address your lack of understanding of the mechanics of regenerative farming. Some of the case studies quoted in that book relate to very large acreage holdings in AU and USA so can hardly be regarded as "backyard level" enterprises.



I'm guessing that this is based on mineral replacement ideology. In reality most of the minerals required to support plant growth are already present in the soil profile; it's just a matter of stimulating the soil biology to access that reservoir.

If you're averse to gaining knowledge from a book then maybe this video presentation by the book's author will open your mind to its perspective:

Chicken manure is average values of
NPKS
Chicken Manure 1.1 0.8%0.5 0.3 25% of this manure is water even after a year.

You will need 20X the amount to supply less nutrients than DAP based fertiliser or 10 times for a Superphoshate based fetiliser.
the average chook produces 25 tons of manure per thousand hens. great stuff but you will need about 7500KG of manure per ha so for each HA you need to fertilse you need 7500 chooks.
for a farm producing 10000ms /HA for each hectare.
this is just one nutrient and doesnt not include the capital fertilisers which is about 11 KG of phosphorus needed to raise the olsen p to the biological optimium of 30 for Taranaiki soils which is a mind boogling 81 tons/ha if its an olsen 5 of 15.
The average farm in NZ is 140ha so you will need 1 million chocks for just one average farm. just for maintence
hint we have about 12000 dairy farms alone in NZ that 12 billion chooks. just for the dairy farms alone. assuming you could even capture 100% of the chicken manure.
and at 1.6 million HA its only about 7.5% of NZ 12 million ha in farming and horticulture.:psst:

My Maths is based on maths, My science is based on simple science, my farming experience is based on being a farmer for over 20 years. not the ramblings of some organic zealot idiot.
simply put no matter your good intentions You can't answer the questions as you dont understand the scale. Thats why you keep avoiding answering the questions.
Where are going to run the 100 of billions of Chickens needed to produce the manure needed? what are you going to feed them, hint we will need to feed the chocks and they eat feed we like to eat like grains these are simple questions what are we going to feed these 12 billion chooks alone thats just for the dairy farms. Just the need to store the 1000's ton of manure needed fo reach dairy farm for a year prior to application should be an hint

[sidecar bob]

What about the urea you're going to have to put on the corn to feed that many chickens?

[husaberg]

What about the urea you're going to have to put on the corn to feed that many chickens?

13kg of nitrogen or nearly 30KG of urea per ton of grain
at 12t Grain yeild/HA you will need a lot of Chickens. and a lot of HA to feed them corn.

Thats 1200kg of Chicken manure / ton of grain or 14.4tt/HA of chicken shit.
Thats the problem with such ill conceived ideas.
wait to those ones come home to roost...........
if we go organic we need to cut done all the rainforests to grow enough food to survive.

[Naki Rat]

Chicken manure is average values of
NPKS
Chicken Manure 1.1 0.8%0.5 0.3 25% of this manure is water even after a year.

You will need 20X the amount to supply less nutrients than DAP based fertiliser or 10 times for a Superphoshate based fetiliser.
the average chook produces 25 tons of manure per thousand hens. great stuff but you will need about 7500KG of manure per ha so for each HA you need to fertilse you need 7500 chooks.
for a farm producing 10000ms /HA for each hectare.
this is just one nutrient and doesnt not include the capital fertilisers which is about 11 KG of phosphorus needed to raise the olsen p to the biological optimium of 30 for Taranaiki soils which is a mind boogling 81 tons/ha if its an olsen 5 of 15.
The average farm in NZ is 140ha so you will need 1 million chocks for just one average farm. just for maintence
hint we have about 12000 dairy farms alone in NZ that 12 billion chooks. just for the dairy farms alone. assuming you could even capture 100% of the chicken manure.
and at 1.6 million HA its only about 7.5% of NZ 12 million ha in farming and horticulture.:psst:

My Maths is based on maths, My science is based on simple science, my farming experience is based on being a farmer for over 20 years. not the ramblings of some organic zealot idiot.
simply put no matter your good intentions You can't answer the questions as you dont understand the scale. Thats why you keep avoiding answering the questions.
Where are going to run the 100 of billions of Chickens needed to produce the manure needed? what are you going to feed them, hint we will need to feed the chocks and they eat feed we like to eat like grains these are simple questions what are we going to feed these 12 billion chooks alone thats just for the dairy farms. Just the need to store the 1000's ton of manure needed fo reach dairy farm for a year prior to application should be an hintI'm not answering the questions you're posing because in a biologically driven production system the mineral replacement model you're using is largely irrelevant. My scenario perceives soil biological levels as the yardstick of production potential and that isn't just measured in NPKS.

In the case of nitrogen in particular it is hugely abundant in the air we breath and the bacteria and plants that fix that nitrogen are well able to supply it in the soil environment in sufficient levels to support plant growth. That is why the plants that we grow exude carbohydrates from their roots in order to feed those bacteria and associated soil biota. Nitrogen doesn't need to come from a sack of salts if your soil is functioning as it was designed. Nitrogen fixation is simple biology and it is also why farmers not so long ago included clover in their sward, back before oil derived nitrogen products became the crutch to support today's production levels.

Your reasoning is as relevant to regenerative farming methods as equating how much fossil fuel is needed to charge an electric car. The two ideologies aren't interchangeable in those respects. Regenerative farming works with naturally available resources and is designed and fine tuned by observation of the farm environment. When did your fertiliser rep last dig a hole and observe the root and earthworm activity in your soil?

[Naki Rat]

This discussion from a trio of top-line journalists addresses the coming scenario for our world along with the the changing landscape for their profession in a world where two top leaders are both doing their best to rewrite history in real time. An intriguing discussion.

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1lPKqVkjwANGb

[husaberg]

I'm not answering the questions you're posing because in a biologically driven production system the mineral replacement model you're using is largely irrelevant. My scenario perceives soil biological levels as the yardstick of production potential and that isn't just measured in NPKS.

In the case of nitrogen in particular it is hugely abundant in the air we breath and the bacteria and plants that fix that nitrogen are well able to supply it in the soil environment in sufficient levels to support plant growth. That is why the plants that we grow exude carbohydrates from their roots in order to feed those bacteria and associated soil biota. Nitrogen doesn't need to come from a sack of salts if your soil is functioning as it was designed. Nitrogen fixation is simple biology and it is also why farmers not so long ago included clover in their sward, back before oil derived nitrogen products became the crutch to support today's production levels.

Your reasoning is as relevant to regenerative farming methods as equating how much fossil fuel is needed to charge an electric car. The two ideologies aren't interchangeable in those respects. Regenerative farming works with naturally available resources and is designed and fine tuned by observation of the farm environment. When did your fertiliser rep last dig a hole and observe the root and earthworm activity in your soil?

How about all the nutrients
Yes, legume can and do contribute to N supply.They form the backbone of pastoral farming in Nz that's why 25% of the pasture seeds we plant are clover, but they dont supply enough to feed the world or produce at the biological optimum as they top out at about 200KG/N per ha. Not using N would be cool but only if you stump up with the 20% extra land or the 20% increase in price for out products.
We would need to clear another 1/5 of NZ to supply the same amount of yields we currently have with using Urea and ammonium sulphate.
Legumes also only grow when the soil temp is over 10 degrees C ie about 60-70% of the year but livestock need feeding year around and nitrogen doesn't accumulate in the soil for periods either.
You also conveniently again dodge where all the P,K and s are going to come from as they have to be replaced as they leave with the product as does the Nitrogen.
its simple maths you remove NPK and S and they have to be replaced. if they come from chicken shit or fertilier the nutrients have to be replaced.
uless you intend to ship back the feaces of the people that eat the NZ cheese and the meat they need to be replaced.
Your points are illogical and are not based on science they simply dont add up.
100's of billions of chickens eating grain and us trucking around their poop while dancing arround with hairy arm pitted vegetarians are the answer to sustainable agriculture..... nice one.

[Berries]

What about the urea you're going to have to put on the corn to feed that many chickens?
Come on, don't take the piss.

[Naki Rat]

How about all the nutrients
Yes, legume can and do contribute to N supply.They form the backbone of pastoral farming in Nz that's why 25% of the pasture seeds we plant are clover, but they dont supply enough to feed the world or produce at the biological optimum as they top out at about 200KG/N per ha. Not using N would be cool but only if you stump up with the 20% extra land or the 20% increase in price for out products.
We would need to clear another 1/5 of NZ to supply the same amount of yields we currently have with using Urea and ammonium sulphate.
Legumes also only grow when the soil temp is over 10 degrees C ie about 60-70% of the year but livestock need feeding year around and nitrogen doesn't accumulate in the soil for periods either.
You also conveniently again dodge where all the P,K and s are going to come from as they have to be replaced as they leave with the product as does the Nitrogen.
its simple maths you remove NPK and S and they have to be replaced. if they come from chicken shit or fertilier the nutrients have to be replaced.
uless you intend to ship back the feaces of the people that eat the NZ cheese and the meat they need to be replaced.
Your points are illogical and are not based on science they simply dont add up.
100's of billions of chickens eating grain and us trucking around their poop while dancing arround with hairy arm pitted vegetarians are the answer to sustainable agriculture..... nice one.Okay, this conversation will remain at an impass as long as you keep regurgitating the mineral replacement ideology, which is understandable as it is the basis of soil science theory at university level.

Look at it this way. I'll assume you are familiar with the basics of composting but just in case here we go.
The composting process is reliant on a C:N ratio of around 25:1 for efficient breakdown of the carbon rich material that makes up the bulk of the compost's mass. The nitrogen is required as fuel for the organisms (mainly bacteria) that initiate this breakdown and it is the biological activity of those bacteria that causes the heating phase of the composting process which serves to accelerate that breakdown while also killing most of the pathogenic (and potentially phytotoxic) components of the compost ingredients. This nitrogen input can come from a wide variety of sources including chicken manure as we've discussed but any animal manure will suffice, as will slaughterhouse or fish processing wastes and a variety of food wastes or byproducts. Virtually every food production system has a potentially valuable byproduct stream that can be used to fuel a composting process to be used by themselves or by an upstream supplier. This makes a lot of sense, especially as many food producing enterprises currently regard such 'waste' streams as an expensive problem (e.g. dairy effluent).

In that scenario the nitrogenous input serves as a catalyst in the process not as a mineral component in a fertiliser sense. Also those same bacteria that break down the carboniferous content are also present in your soil and are activated to perform that same process when nitrogen is added in the form of soluble fertilisers. You referred to the process that occurs when nitrogen was added to sawdust but in the soil environment the most readily available carbon source is the humus. This is why the repeated application of soluble nitrogen fertilisers is so harmful to your soil; it fuels a process whereby it consumes itself. Goodbye topsoil!

Back to the compost. Once it has completed its breakdown process it has become a very valuable soil conditioning input to your garden or farm. Not in the sense of an NPK analysis fertiliser but as a catalyst in its own right to stimulate the organisms in your soil environment to release the nutrients that naturally exist there. Of particular importance in a farming system is nitrogen which as you're correctly stated is temperature (seasonally) regulated. However the nitrogen in your farming environment is stored in the plants and soil organisms. The live cycles of all of the organisms on your farm produce nitrogenous wastes whether it be the above ground livestock or the much smaller but collectively huge mass of soil organisms. This below ground population starts with bacteria and moves up through protozoa, nematodes, arthropods and on to earthworms. Each consumes those below them and excretes (shits) out excess nitrogen. In addition leguminous plants work in conjunction with nitrogen fixing bacteria to convert atmospheric nitrogen which ends up in the foliage of the plant to be consumed by either farm livestock (who then excrete nitrogen rich manure and urine) or soil organisms if foliage returns directly to the soil. Additionally the soil contains free living nitrogen fixing bacteria that do so without the photosynthetic advantage involved in living symbiotically with legumes.

The other major component of the compost and soil environments is fungi. These organisms play a huge role in physically and nutritionally supporting soil health. Their 'root' or hyphae extend for kilometres and function as virtual (vascular) extensions to plant roots enabling nutrient and water transfer that plants aren't able to directly perform themselves. They also exude strong acids that are capable of extracting minerals from the rock (e.g. sand) component of soils. Fungal strands also bind together soil particles into crumbs and larger aggregates that aid water holding capacity, combats erosion and maintains the texture of soils that enable them to act as organism friendly structures for the myriad of life that exists under your feet. Fungi's wide network also allow plants to communicate in times of stress or pest predation thereby aiding the quorum sensing proces (https://academic.oup.com/femsec/article/66/2/197/570519)s. Repeated cultivation is also devastating to the fungal community in soils and is to a large part responsible for the accelerated erosion, by wind or water, that often occurs in soils that are treated in this manner.

The dominance of either fungi or bacteria (https://web.extension.illinois.edu/soil/SoilBiology/fw&soilhealth.htm) in any soil environment is another crucial factor in how well suited it will be in supporting the particular crop required. Fungally dominant soils are best suited for tree and vine crops and other woody species. The form of nitrogen produced by such soils is best suited to these plants and the fungi are best suited to breaking down fallen leaves, woody material and other such carbon rich debris. Conversely bacterially dominant soils (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0038071716000249) are where pastures, vegetables and other such 'soft' plants do best. Their wastes readily rot in this bacterial environment and in turn are converted to a nitrogen form more readily taken up by those plants.

Nicola also refers late in her video presentation to methane consuming soil organisms (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1392950/). These organisms directly consume methane within the soil (or water) environment and similar organisms are capable of breaking down other hydrocarbon products (e.g. Gulf of Mexico oil spill). This is an example of how well suited nature is in correcting, or in other words using, all manor of inputs when allowed to do so. This is why the continual dousing of soils with elements in salt form, which is what modern fertilisers usually are, is so damaging. The salt solutions that result when water is added are lethal to many of the organisms that soil functions rely on and so the soil nutrient cycle gradually declines with the soil becoming ever more dependent on synthetic inputs as its biology declines and topsoil content shrinks. Add to this the adverse effects to soil of many herbicides as is demonstrated by the lack of soil texture and prevalence of problem weed species (soil remedial varieties) in the 'herbicide strip' commonly found in horticultural settings.

Soil function is not so much based on maths as you put it so much as biology. Though if you want to apply maths to the input output equation you should be using the correct base inputs and outputs in order to do it accurately but be aware that to do so is hellishly complex and well beyond NPK in/NPK out. The multiplier effect of enlisting soil microbes in the nutrient cycling of their environment is far beyond the understanding of a conventional (chemistry based) soil science ideology. The power of microbes is absolutely immense, as the ongoing battle with a certain virus is currently showing us.

[Jaeger]

And what about the Sun,s protons?

[Naki Rat]

And what about the Sun,s protons?Covered those under photosynthesis.:sunny::cool:

[husaberg]

blather


So you have no answers just faith in the magic beans then ...............
odd that science is so wrong and a hippy is so right without being able to answer simple questions..................
best not waste in more time i need to count my chickens. i will be needing at least 1000 to produce the Nitrogen i just spread in the last few weeks. and i still have PKS and lime to go in yet the planet just doesn't violate itself you know.
then i have to plow up the neighbours to grow the corn to feed them of course. zThen plant the others neighbours in Rapeseed to have enough diesel to kart the extra hundreds of tons of fertilser i need to cart, cover store for a year and carry to spread , then i have to cut down all the remaining bush to make up for the shortfall of having no Nitrogen to grow the extra 20% grass. then of course i will need to start plowing rather then direct no tillage drilling as we dont get to use herbicide, then we need to spend all our time hand weeding the maize. accept the losses for pest and yeild of at least 40%
but as it has yto be great fo the environment cause the Youtube lady said so. the same yutube lady that peddling fher services fo a fee of course with not a single case study on her website from a single commercial farmer.
https://www.integritysoils.co.nz/case-studies/

[Naki Rat]

..... the same yutube lady that peddling fher services fo a fee of course with not a singlecase study on her website form a single commercial farmer.
https://www.integritysoils.co.nz/case-studies/I'm seeing three glowing case studies from your link to Integrity soils'website. Perhaps your internet connection is as incapable of receiving information as you.

There are none so blind as those who will not see :rolleyes:

[husaberg]

I'm seeing three case studies from your link. Perhaps your internet connection is as incapable of receiving information as you.

There are none so blind as those who will not see :rolleyes:

Yet not a single one is a commercial farmer
Why dont you post the imaginary one you seem to think exists form a commercial farmer in the Three Case studies then not using convetional ferilisers only using magic beans and the manure of a few chocks
https://www.integritysoils.co.nz/case-studies/
i will give you a hint a horsey guy
and grape farmer are not commercial farmers
the other i take with a grain of salt as the glowing testomony is nothing to do with not using conventional fertilisers and neglects to mention he still uses conventional fertilisers, did he forget?
https://www.superior.net.nz/testimonial/Chris-Dagg-Hazeel-Downs-Queenstown
so much for the magic beans:facepalm:

[Naki Rat]

Yet not a single one is a commercial farmer
Why dont you post the imaginary one you seem to think exists form a commercial farmer in the Three Case studies then not using convetional ferilisers only i=uso=ing magic beans and the manure of a few chocks
https://www.integritysoils.co.nz/case-studies/
i will give you a hint a horsey guy
and grape farmer are not commercial farmers
the other i take wit a grain of salt as the glowing testomony is nothing to do with not using conventional fertilisers and neglects to mention he still uses conventional fertilisers, did he forget?
https://www.superior.net.nz/testimonial/Chris-Dagg-Hazeel-Downs-Queenstown
so much for the magic beans:facepalm:Raising racehorses, drystock and vineyards are all commercial enterprises who have revised their fertiliser inputs based on Integrity Soils' consultancy with them. I didn't say that regenerative farming was reliant on completely abandoning conventional fertilisers. You're the one that seems to have gained a fixation on chook shit.

We have had the fertiliser spreader here today spreading composted Osflo (https://www.osflo.co.nz/product/osflo-organic-fertiliser/), RPR, lime dolomite and MOP. Incidentally the Osflo facility is a couple of kms from our property so we also benefit from the reduced fuel use in their providing us with their product. Our soil was fertilised with the least environmentally damaging inputs required that would rebalance the mineral profile we require for healthy pasture and livestock. Not strictly organic in terms of what would be demanded if we were under a recognised certifier but the best compromise in terms of soil health, cost effectiveness and optimum fertility. That is also the underlying logic of regenerative agriculture, which you seem to be confusing with strict organic standards. If you'd taken the time to watch the video I posted earlier you might have realised this.

[husaberg]

Raising racehorses, drystock and vineyards are all commercial enterprises who have revised their fertiliser inputs based on Integrity Soils' consultancy with them. I didn't say that regenerative farming was reliant on completely abandoning conventional fertilisers. You're the one that seems to have gained a fixation on chook shit.

We have had the fertiliser spreader here today spreading composted Osflo (https://www.osflo.co.nz/product/osflo-organic-fertiliser/), RPR, lime dolomite and MOP. Incidentally the Osflo facility is a couple of kms from our property so we also benefit from the reduced fuel use in their providing us with their product. Our soil was fertilised with the least environmentally damaging inputs required that would rebalance the mineral profile we require for healthy pasture and livestock. Not strictly organic in terms of what would be demanded if we were under a recognised certifier but the best compromise in terms of soil health, cost effectiveness and optimum fertility. That is also the underlying logic of regenerative agriculture, which you seem to be confusing with strict organic standards. If you'd taken the time to watch the video I posted earlier you might have realised this.

I said commercial farming ,like i said stick to your magic beans you will soon need to eat them unless you supply the inputs to match your output its not magic its science and maths.
hense why to fertilise with chicken compost and you said you will need 100's of billions of chickens and to cut down all the trees in need to plant enough maize to feed them, then of course whoops you need to fertilse the maize so you will need to bulzoze all the mountains into the south pacific to feed more chickens for that.....................

[Naki Rat]

I said commercial farming ,like i said stick to your magic beans you will soon need to eat them unless you supply the inputs to match your output its not magic its science and maths.
hense why to fertilise with chicken compost and you said you will need 100's of billions of chickens and to cut down all the trees in need to plant enough maize to feed them, then of course whoops you need to fertilse the maize so you will need to bulzoze all the mountains into the south pacific to feed more chickens for that.....................You're getting repetitive and tiresome. Time to end the chat I feel :bye:

[caspernz]

You're getting repetitive and tiresome. Time to end the chat I feel :bye:

Oh c'mon now, I'll admit it's a challenging wank, but I'm almost there :wacko:

[husaberg]

You're getting repetitive and tiresome. Time to end the chat I feel :bye:

really bacause no mater how many times i ask you simply avoid the questions and try and sell me magic beans
I will give you a hint fertisers are easy, its inputs to reach biological optimum, then its inputs in vs outputs out.
The fert companies will give the advice for free no need for a "expert charging by the hour" its a simply computer model.
your cant answer the easy questions as you simply cant fathom you are trying to make outs its some special science instead of admitting you are getting sold some magic beans.......
Next thing you will be extolling the virtues of Maxicrop
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxicrop
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell-Booth_Group_Ltd_v_Attorney-General
he lives down the road from you....
he claims that it was special and didtnt need to provde the chemicals as it was "special"

[Jaeger]

I have been watching a guy called Sadhguru.
India used to farm with x amount of trees and x amount of cattle per there patch of dirt.
It worked for long time leaf matter combined with cow dung, blah blah.
Since they have changed their farming practices, they only have 25% of their land left to support growing of crops. They were told to cut the trees down due to the supposed fact that the trees would consume the expensive fertilizers .
Below is a small list of sources where some NPK can be gained.
My wife's family are rice and insect farmers in North east Thailand and its interesting watching them break from old traditions vs modern.

Fertiliser

Nitrogen (n)

Phosphorus (p)

Potassium (k)

Cottonseed Meal

6.6

2 - 3

1 - 2

Ground Fish (Dried)

8.5

7.4

0

Fish, Blood & Bone meal

5

5

6.5

Activated Sewage Sludge

5

3

0

Blood Meal

12

0

0

Rock Phosphate (Ground)

0

26 - 35

0

Bone Meal

3.5

17

0

Chicken Manure (Dried)

5

2

1

Goat Manure (Dried)

1.35

1

3

Sheep Manure (Dried)

1.51 - 3.09

1 - 2.5

0.33 - 2.25

Poultry Litter (Dried)

5

2

1

Alfalfa (Hay)

2.45

0.5

2.1

Tankage

11 - 12

1 - 2

0

Apple (Fruit)

0.05

0.02

0.1

Apple (Leaves)

1

0.15

0.35

Apple (Pomace)

0.2

0.02

0.15

Apple (Skin, Ash)

0

3.08

11.74

Basic Slag

0

18

0

Cana Tree (Ash)

0

0

15.65

Banana Skin (Ash)

0

3.25

41.76

Banana Stalk (Ash)

0

2.34

49.40

Barley (Grain)

1.75

0.75

0.5

Bat Guano

1 - 12

2.5 - 16

0

Beet (Root)

0.25

0.1

0.5

Brewery Grain (Wet)

0.9

0.5

0.05

Brigham Tea (Ash)

0

0

5.94

Bone (Ground, Ash)

Ash)

0

34.7

Silk Mill (By products)

8.37

1.14

0.12

Cantaloupe skin (Melon) (Ash)

0

9.77

12.21

Castor-Bean (Pomace)

5 - 6

2 - 2.5

1 - 1.25

Cattail / Bulrush reed & Stem

2.02

0.81

3.43

Cattail / Bulrush Seed

0.98

0.39

1.71

Coal (Anthracite) (Ash)

0

0.1 - 0.15

0.1 - 0.15

Coal (Bituminous) (Ash)

0

0.4

Cocoa shell (Dust)

1.04

1.49

2.71

Coffee Grounds

2.08

0.32

0.28

Coffee Grounds (Dried)

1.99

0.36

0.67

Corncobs (Ground Charred)

0

0

2.01

Common Crab

1.95

3.6

0.2

Nettles (Stinging European)

5.6

0.7

3.7

Comfrey

1.8

0.5

5.3

Corn (Grain)

1.65

0.65

0.4

Corn (Green Forage)

0.3

0.13

0.33

Cottonseed

3.15

1.25

1.15

Cottonseed - hull ashes

0

7-10

15-30

Cottonseed - hull (Ash)

0

8.7

23.93

Cotton Waste (Factory)

1.32

0.45

0.36

Cowpeas (Green forage)

0.45

0.12

0.45

Black-eyed Peas (Green forage)

0.45

0.12

0.45

Cowpeas (Seed)

3.1

1

1.2

Black-eyed Peas (Seed)

3.1

1

1.2

Crabgrass (Green)

0.66

0.19

0.71

Cucumber (Skin) (Ash)

0

11.28

27.2

Dog Manure

1.97

9.95

0.3

Jellyfish (Dried)

4.6

0

0

Mussel Mud (Dried)

0.72

0.35

0

Duck Manure (Fresh)

1.12

1.44

0.49

Eggs

2.25

0.4

0.15

Eggshell (Burned)

0

0.43

0.29

Eggshell

1.19

0.38

0.14

Feathers

15.3

0

0

Field Bean (Seed)

4

1.2

1.3

Field Bean (Shell)

1.7

0.3

0.35

Smokehouse Ashes

0

0

4.96

Fish Scraps (Fresh)

2 - 7.5

1.5 - 6

0

Mud / Silt (Freshwater)

1.37

0.26

0.22

Greasewood Ashes

0

0

12.61

Beans - Garden Beans & Pods

0.25

0.08

0.3

Gluten feed

4 - 5

0

0

Greensand (Glauconite)

0

1 - 2

5

Grapes (Fruit)

0.15

0.07

0.3

Grapefruit (Skin) (Ash)

0

3.58

30.6

Hair

12 - 16

0

0

Harbour Mud

0.99

0.77

0.05

Hoof & Horn Meal

13

0

0

Incinerator Ash

0.24

5.15

2.33

Kentucky Bluegrass (Green)

0.66

0.19

0.71

Kentucky Bluegrass (Hay)

1.2

0.4

1.55

King Crab (Dried - Ground)

10

0.26

0.06

King Crab (Fresh)

2 - 2.5

0

0

Leather (Acidulated)

7 - 8

0

0

Leather (Ground)

10 - 12

0

0

Leather Scraps (Ash)

0

2.16

0.35

Lemon Culls

0.15

0.06

0.26

Lemon Skins (Ash)

0

6.3

31

Limekiln Ash

0

0.75

2

Lobster Scraps

4.5

3.5

0

Lobster Shell

4

3.52

0

Milk

0.5

0.3

0.18

Mussels

0.9

0.12

0.13

Molasses residue (Brewing)

0.7

0

5.32

Oak Leaves

0.8

0.35

0.15

Oats (Grain)

2

0.8

0.6

Olives (Pomace)

1.15

0.78

1.26

Olive Waste

1.22

0.18

0.32

Orange Culls

0.2

0.13

0.21

Orange Skins (Ash)

0

2.9

27

Pea Pods (Ash)

0

1.79

9

Peanuts (Seed or Kernel)

3.6

0.7

0.45

Peanut (Shells)

0.8

0.15

0.5

Peanut (Shell Ash)

0

1.23

6.45

Pigeon Manure (Fresh)

4.19

2.24

1.41

Pigweed (Amaranth)

0.6

0.16

0

Pine needles

0.46

0.12

0.03

Potato (Tuber)

0.35

0.15

0.5

Potato (Leaves / Stalks)

0.6

0.15

0.45

Potato skin (Ash)

0

5.18

27.5

Poudrette (Compost toilet)

1.46

3.68

0.48

Prune Waste

0.18

0.07

0.31

Pumpkin (Flesh)

0.16

0.07

0.26

Pumpkin (Seeds)

0.87

0.5

0.45

Rabbitbrush Ashes

0

0

13.04

Ragweed (Great / Common)

0.76

0.26

0

Red Clover (Hay)

2.1

0.5

2

Redtop (Bentgrass) (Hay)

1.2

0.35

1

Raw Sugar Residue

1.14

8.33

0

Seaweed (Ascophyllum nodosum)

1.9

0.25

3.68

Rose (Flowers)

0.3

0.1

0.4

Rhubarb (Stems)

0.1

0.04

0.35

Sagebrush Ashes

0

0

4.1

salt marsh hay (salt hay grass)

1.1

0.25

0.75

Salt Mud

0.4

0

0

Sardine Scraps

7.97

7.11

0

Sewage Sludge (Filter bed)

0.74

0.83

0.24

Shoddy & Felt

4 - 12

0

0

Shrimp Waste

2.87

9.95

0

Shrimp Meal

6

6

0

Silkworm Cocoons

9.42

1.82

1.08

Chimney Soot

0.5 - 11

1

0.35

Spanish Moss

0.6

0.1

0.55

Starfish

1.8

0.2

0.25

Sunflower Seed

2.25

1.25

0.79

Sweetpotato Skin (Boiled) (Ash)

0

3.29

13.89

Sweetpotato

0.25

0.1

0.5

Tanbark (Ash)

0

0.24

0.38

Tea Leaves (Grounds)

4.15

0.62

0.4

Tea-leaf Ash

0

1.6

0.44

Timothy Hay (Cat's tail)

1.25

0.55

1

Tobacco Leaves

4

0.5

6

Tobacco Stalks

3.7

0.65

4.5

Tobacco Stems

2.5

0.9

7

Tomato (Fruit)

0.2

0.07

0.35

Tomato (Leaves)

0.35

0.1

0.4

Tomato (Stalks)

0.35

0.1

0.5

Rabbit Manure

7

1.7 - 3.1

0

Wheat (Bran)

2.65

2.9

1.6

Wheat (Grain)

2

0.85

0.5

Wheat (Straw)

0.5

0.15

0.6

White Clover (Green)

0.5

0.2

0.3

White Sage (Ash)

0

0

13.77

Wood Ashes (Leached)

0

1 - 1.5

1 - 3

Wood Ashes (Unleached)

0

1 - 2

4 - 10

Wool Waste

5 - 6

2 - 4

1 - 3

Insect Frass

3

2

3

[Berries]

Brewery Grain (Wet)

0.9

0.5

0.05

Brigham Tea (Ash)

0

0

5.94

Bone (Ground, Ash)

0

34.7 Did I just miss the Melbourne Cup or something?

[Naki Rat]

I have been watching a guy called Sadhguru.
India used to farm with x amount of trees and x amount of cattle per there patch of dirt.
It worked for long time leaf matter combined with cow dung, blah blah.
Since they have changed their farming practices, they only have 25% of their land left to support growing of crops. They were told to cut the trees down due to the supposed fact that the trees would consume the expensive fertilizers .
Below is a small list of sources where some NPK can be gained.
My wife's family are rice and insect farmers in North east Thailand and its interesting watching them break from old traditions vs modern.

Fertiliser

Nitrogen (n)

Phosphorus (p)

Potassium (k)

.....
Tankage

11 - 12

1 - 2

0

.....
Interesting mineral resource list, and that's got to be one of the longest posts ever!

In case anybody was wondering 'tankage' is ground up animal carcasses after they had the fat rendered off; essentially what we know as blood and bone meal.

In addition to the difficulties farmers in developing countries are experiencing as they are pushed into using expensive synthetic fertilisers is the patenting of seed stocks which in many cases bans the practice of seed saving effectively forcing those farmers to purchase new seed every year, and that seed is often selectively bred (including by genetic modification) with production characteristics that are ill-suited to local environments. In India in particular these factors are leading to extreme economic failure and a soaring rural suicide rate.

[pritch]

One way of keeping the number of confirmed cases down. Or would have been if...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/17-bodies-found-inside-jersey-nursing-home-amid/story?id=70181840

[Naki Rat]

One way of keeping the number of confirmed cases down. Or would have been if...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/17-bodies-found-inside-jersey-nursing-home-amid/story?id=70181840Similar under-reporting of COVID-19 deaths has happened in the UK. Someone 'forgot' to include deaths in elderly care facilities until recently, and add to that the deaths that happen in people's own homes as COVID-19 victims choose not to go to hospital where they would be forced to potentially die alone away from their families.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/15/uk-care-home-inspectors-did-not-ask-about-covid-19-deaths-until-april

[Naki Rat]

I said commercial farming ,like i said stick to your magic beans you will soon need to eat them unless you supply the inputs to match your output its not magic its science and maths.
hense why to fertilise with chicken compost and you said you will need 100's of billions of chickens and to cut down all the trees in need to plant enough maize to feed them, then of course whoops you need to fertilse the maize so you will need to bulzoze all the mountains into the south pacific to feed more chickens for that.....................Was the planting of sunflowers on tonight's Country Calender close enough to magic beans for you? An economically viable large scale farming venture distancing themselves from synthetic fertilisers and not a hairy hippy or bulldozed mountain to be seen ;)
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/country-calendar/episodes/s2020-e7

[husaberg]

Was the planting of sunflowers on tonight's Country Calender close enough to magic beans for you? An economically viable large scale farming venture distancing themselves from synthetic fertilisers and not a hairy hippy or bulldozed mountain to be seen ;)
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/country-calendar/episodes/s2020-e7

So that makes him perform better then conventional farming....Wow i am impressed..........only that was never mentioned or quantified now was it, thus it is magic beans until those sunflowers can magically replace the nutrients sent of that farm in protein wool and other protects sent of f the farmit isnt sustainable farming its raping the land of nutrients. unless he has 100 million chicken tons of chicken shit.
That why your case studies on the websites were not case studies at all, they have no scientific basis to make claims.

[Katman]

So that makes him perform better then conventional farming....Wow i am impressed..........only that was never mentioned or quantified now was it, thus it is magic beans until those sunflowers can magically replace the nutrients sent of that farm in protein wool and other protects sent of f the farmit isnt sustainable farming its raping the land of nutrients. unless he has 100 million chicken tons of chicken shit.
That why your case studies on the websites were not case studies at all, they have no scientific basis to make claims.

You seem fixated on the idea that New Zealand has to feed the world.

It doesn't - it really only needs to feed New Zealand.

[husaberg]

You seem fixated on the idea that New Zealand has to feed the world.

It doesn't - it really only needs to feed New Zealand.

Yeah so those 90% of farmers whose product is exported ,should just go bankrupt then, as Steve from taupo doesn't understand GDP and trade deficits or economics of a small populated island in the south pacific. Or indeed Farming.
How about instead of trolling you contribute your vast farming knowledge:2thumbsup

[Katman]

Yeah so those 90% of farmers who product is exported should just go bankrupt then, as Steve from taupo doesn't understand GDP and trade deficitsor economics of a small populated island in te south pacific. Or indeed Farming.
How about instead of trolling you contribute your vast farming knowledge:2thumbsup

Yeah, inconvenient truths have never sat well with you, have they?

[husaberg]

Yeah, inconvenient truths have never sat well with you , have they?

Its not an inconvenient truth its a fact 90% of farm products are exported in NZ, you just dont understand why that is, or why its important.
But seeing as you pretty much exclusively sell imported goods, to a hobby market and service imported products, i can see why you could not understand basic market fundamentals.
Nor would you be able to fathom why NZ is so amendable to growing cereals small seeds and pasture based agriculture yet, so shit at tropical fruit like bananas an pineapples and coconuts
Maybe you think that selling burgers to each other or trolling the internet with conspiracy theories will pay for these products.
Actually stuff that doesn't sit well is you claims that there are numerous cost effective alternatives to 1080 or your claims that rodeo 100-180kg calves get sent to the works after the rodeos. which were both fabrications of your imagination along with your other misinformation troll you do on KB.

But troll away steveo, that's all you are good for.

[FJRider]

You seem fixated on the idea that New Zealand has to feed the world.

It doesn't - it really only needs to feed New Zealand.

True. But the downside is that they get more money from the stuff they export to feed the world. For New Zealanders that want to get the quality stuff being exported ... they need to pay more. Those selling it don't want to be paid less.

So the NZ population gets what's left.

Isn't capitalism great ... <_<

[Katman]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-police-raid-palestinian-coronavirus-testing-clinic-in-east-jerusalem-1.8767788?fbclid=IwAR05gJKSFL-HDuKkyrMyBztBTikH9MvUPXT0opTAm7M_CQsQ__jqH0EDPZM

[sidecar bob]

You seem fixated on the idea that New Zealand has to feed the world.

It doesn't - it really only needs to feed New Zealand.

Well if that's not the most ignorant & stupid thing ever posted in the history of the internet, then it must be a close second.:facepalm:

[Katman]

Well if that's not the most ignorant & stupid thing ever posted in the history of the internet, then it must be a close second.:facepalm:

Okay, I'll bite....

How so?

[sidecar bob]

Okay, I'll bite....

How so?

Well I guess using your logic, businesses could simply buy & sell things amongst their staff, thus removing the pesky annoyance of customers, while also removing the income generated from folk outside the business.
You should try that & see how it goes for you.
You're around 200 years too late for a NZ that works like that.

[Katman]

Well I guess using your logic, businesses could simply buy & sell things amongst their staff, thus removing the pesky annoyance of customers, while also removing the income generated from folk outside the business.
You should try that & see how it goes for you.

I suppose it depends on the importance you place on making ever increasing sums of money.

[sidecar bob]

I suppose it depends on the importance you place on making ever increasing sums of money.

Or the importance you place on servicing your debt, or paying your Bills. Or simply making enough money to put food on the table.
I personally put a very low importance on making ever increasing sums of money, so you're preaching to the converted there.
I've been nearly three years earning less than 25% of my income potential, should I decide to work to capacity.

[Katman]

Or the importance you place on servicing your debt, or paying your Bills. Or simply making enough money to put food on the table.

I've not questioned the need to make enough money to put food on the table.

I would suggest though that the food doesn't have to stretch to 8 courses each night.

(Are you still upset over the fact that I don't want to be your friend?) :baby:

[sidecar bob]

I've not questioned the need to make enough money to put food on the table.

I would suggest though that the food doesn't have to stretch to 8 courses each night.

(Are you still upset over the fact that I don't want to be your friend?) :baby:

No, I'm simply flabbergasted how quickly you put the keyboard into overdrive without switching the brain on.
Do you have any idea what this country's current national debt is, or the mechanisms implemented to repay it, or at least keep up on the interest payments?
Seems not.
Stop digging, you come across as a very slow moving target.

[caspernz]

Someone needs to call you out on your uneducated bullshit

Only reason why I choose to chime in occasionally. After all, when someone fills the bowl with crap, we gotta stop by to flush it :yawn:

[Viking01]

See that NZ Treasury has published some papers on some of the background financial modelling they have performed for Covid, and the main scenarios that Government has been considering. Two links below.

The first link is a quick introduction and summary; the second contains content relating to the scenarios considered .

The financial commentary is within the second link. Note the Table of Contents on the right hand side as you scroll down (you can then jump to various sections as takes your interest).

Note also:

1. That there are metrics for measuring poverty and unemployment (in addition to just economic measures such as GDP) included in the analysis;
2. Government recognised that while an additional $20 million spend would not materially increase GDP over a five year period, it would have a significant (positive) impact upon reducing unemployment - which seems to be the direction (and scenario) that Government has adopted.

Some of the data is more "useful" when extracted and presented in graphical form. Related data tables are present on the Treasury website (I didn't say that they were easy to find).

https://treasury.govt.nz/publications/media-statement/treasury-publishes-covid-19-economic-scenarios-weekly-data

https://treasury.govt.nz/publications/tr/treasury-report-t2020-973-economic-scenarios-13-april-2020-html#section-1

[Stylo]

Couple of tips if you've lost your job or, it looks like it may happen.

Do it anyway regardless. Get your class 2 license . Means you can drive a truck and deliver things while you're thinking about what to do next. Worked for me. Just saying. Do it.

We have no idea where this is going.

Tip number two, be positive. I'm doing my best too. :-)

[James Deuce]

The little fuckers stick shit bigger and further than the COVID-19 test up their noses every day. Just test them, FFS.

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/23-04-2020/siouxsie-wiles-what-we-know-about-children-and-covid-19/

[Black Knight]

Can someone answer this for me-I have a mate who is self employed (a builder works under contract only)-applied and received the 3 month wage subsidy-He is due to go back to work next week after the 5 week lockdown,what does he do about the 7 week surplus money he is holding?

[Katman]

Can someone answer this for me-I have a mate who is self employed (a builder works under contract only)-applied and received the 3 month wage subsidy-He is due to go back to work next week after the 5 week lockdown,what does he do about the 7 week surplus money he is holding?

I'm assuming the reason behind it being a 3 month subsidy as opposed to a 4 week one, is that businesses will likely be still facing a considerable downturn in income for some time after the lockdown ends.

[Black Knight]

Cant quite understand your answer-He starts work after 5 weeks but has received a 3 month subsidy,no real downturn in his business the company he contracts to has heaps of ongoing work.
Is it fair that he should just be able to pocket the money,there must be 100's of folk in this position?

[pete376403]

Cant quite understand your answer-He starts work after 5 weeks but has received a 3 month subsidy,no real downturn in his business the company he contracts to has heaps of ongoing work.
Is it fair that he should just be able to pocket the money,there must be 100's of folk in this position?

If it was me I would be putting that money aside in case IRD ask for it back later. Certainly wouldn't be spending it on the assumption that "they will forget about it"

[russd7]

Can someone answer this for me-I have a mate who is self employed (a builder works under contract only)-applied and received the 3 month wage subsidy-He is due to go back to work next week after the 5 week lockdown,what does he do about the 7 week surplus money he is holding?

if he employs staff and can show that he has had a 30% or more downturn in revenue due to Covid-19 then i wouldn't think there should be a problem, otherwise i would say he will need to pay the unused portion back, the subsidy was put in place to try and keep people employed long enough for business to start to recover, just because he is returning to work doesn't mean he is going to be able to do his full job, there could be hold ups in getting materials etc which could mean less work, there could be restrictions on how he is able to operate which could mean more cost etc, the company i work for are returning to work in a limited capacity, so some will get paid to stay at home and some of us are returning to get export orders fulfilled.
back to work this afternoon to start preparation for start up on tuesday, lots to think about and put in place before more come back on tuesday

[jasonu]

Can someone answer this for me-I have a mate who is self employed (a builder works under contract only)-applied and received the 3 month wage subsidy-He is due to go back to work next week after the 5 week lockdown,what does he do about the 7 week surplus money he is holding?

Does any of this apply to your mate?
If it were me I'd stick it in my mattress then wait to see what happens.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12326947

[Kickaha]

The little fuckers stick shit bigger and further than the COVID-19 test up their noses every day.

Treat them like the fucking little plague rats they are

[JimO]

Cant quite understand your answer-He starts work after 5 weeks but has received a 3 month subsidy,no real downturn in his business the company he contracts to has heaps of ongoing work.
Is it fair that he should just be able to pocket the money,there must be 100's of folk in this position?
you may find that lots of the ongoing work will evaporate , most of the builders i deal with have had several jobs go on the back burner because of the customers change in circumstances

[husaberg]

Can someone answer this for me-I have a mate who is self employed (a builder works under contract only)-applied and received the 3 month wage subsidy-He is due to go back to work next week after the 5 week lockdown,what does he do about the 7 week surplus money he is holding?


When you need to repay
You need to repay some or all the COVID-19 Wage Subsidy if:

you no longer meet the criteria for the subsidy
you're not meeting your obligation to use the subsidy to retain and pay your employees
you've received insurance (eg, business continuity insurance) for any costs covered by the subsidy
you provided false or misleading information in your application.

https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/online-services/covid-19/wage-subsidy-declaration.html

[Black Knight]

Following everyones posts and in discussions with him he will be refunding the unused portion-thanks all for the clarifications.

[pritch]

Stephen Moore, a member of Trump's Economic Task Force, has been thinking. Or whatever it is that he does instead. He wants everybody in space suits.

The government can't supply swabs for testing, they can't provide masks for medical staff, but hey let's put everybody in space suits.

And that's nowhere near the silliest statement of the week. The Mayor of Las Vegas is heading off strong challengers with her suggestion that Las Vegas be a "control group".

This interview is just amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlD8Mjxigws

[Viking01]

Stephen Moore, a member of Trump's Economic Task Force, has been thinking. Or whatever it is that he does instead. He wants everybody in space suits.

The government can't supply swabs for testing, they can't provide masks for medical staff, but hey let's put everybody in space suits.

And that's nowhere near the silliest statement of the week. The Mayor of Las Vegas is heading off strong challengers with her suggestion that Las Vegas be a "control group".

This interview is just amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlD8Mjxigws

Pritch,
I can't see why you're ridiculing the suggestion. I think you're missing the big picture. The Las Vegas mayor obviously realises that it's one thing to gamble with your money, but another thing to gamble with your health. And by judicious positioning at the head of the queue, they stand to make a killing (financially, I mean) when they sell out their stake.

I just hope that they have one in my size and preferred colour.

[pritch]

Pritch,
I can't see why you're ridiculing the suggestion. I think you're missing the big picture. The Las Vegas mayor obviously realises that it's one thing to gamble with your money, but another thing to gamble with your health. And by judicious positioning at the head of the queue, they stand to make a killing (financially, I mean) when they sell out their stake.

I just hope that they have one in my size and preferred colour.

Ah yes. You mean like those senators did when they sold of millions in stocks each after a confidential briefing on the likely effects of the virus?
And as yet nobody has been charged with insider trading, even the one who is married to the CEO of the NY Stock Exchange - who also, by a remarkable coincidence, unloaded millions of dollars worth of shares at the same time as his wife.

Oh, and a random thought that has been bothering me for a few days now: The way things are going, in a week or two Trumps idiocy and incompetence and the virus will have killed more Americans than Ho Chi Minh and General Giap managed during an entire war.

[Katman]

And as yet nobody has been charged with insider trading.....

That shouldn't come as any surprise.

No-one's been charged over the insider trading that went on immediately before 9/11 either.

You know the one - the one where they said no-one could have envisaged planes flying into buildings.

Except they were conducting a military exercise at the time that included the scenario of planes flying into buildings.

It's all very confusing. :wacko:

[husaberg]

That shouldn't come as any surprise.

No-one's been charged over the insider trading that went on immediately before 9/11 either.

You know the one - the one where they said no-one could have envisaged planes flying into buildings.

Except they were conducting a military exercise at the time that included the scenario of planes flying into buildings.

It's all very confusing. :wacko:

You are confused though, as there werre investigation into alleged insider trading after 911 they found no evidence of insider trading.
Do you have some evidence of some insider trading prior to 911 by people other than those directly related to the attack. ie the terrorists and their organization.

[Katman]

You are confused though, as there werre investigation into alleged insider trading after 911 they found no evidence of insider trading.

By the 9/11 Commission.

You know - the one that was "set up to fail".

[husaberg]

By the 9/11 Commission.

You know - the one that was "set up to fail".


You are confused though, as there werre investigation into alleged insider trading after 911 they found no evidence of insider trading.
Do you have some evidence of some insider trading prior to 911 by people other than those directly related to the attack. ie the terrorists and their organization.

Lets see is it a fact as usual have no evidence though.........
Do you understand it is a fact that both the FBI and the SEC investigated the rumors of insider trading and that both reported they uncovered no evidence..

Investigations by the SEC and the FBI “uncovered no evidence"

Isntit odd that you consider yourself to be etter at identifuying insider trading than SEC and the FBI.
Its almost like how you claim to have more knowledge about Medicine and vaccine safety than the doctors and scientist do.........
What experience and qualification qualifies you above the SEC and FBI investigators Stevo?

[Katman]

Do you understand it is a fact that both the FBI and the SEC investigated the rumors of insider trading and that both reported they uncovered no evidence..

All you're doing is quoting the 9/11 Commission report.

You know - the commission that was "set up to fail".

[husaberg]

All you're doing is quoting the 9/11 Commission report.
".

really The FBI and the SEC investigated the rumours neither found any evidence the fact you have had two opportunities to list the evidence you have and you have yet to offer a single piece of evidence suggests you as normal have no evidence.
It also seems you have no logical basis to claim you have superior abilities of investigation abilities beyond the FBI or THE SEC either.
https://www.sec.gov/news/press/2004-98.htm
345741


Dennis Lormel
Chief, Financial Crimes Section, FBI
Federal Bureau of Investigation "we have examined three transactions involving individuals in San Diego. Based on all of the evidence, we have concluded that none of these transactions involved a net transfer of funds to the hijackers."

Do you have any evidence that the FBI and the SEC did not investigate the rumours?
becuase both the SEC and the FBI say they did.
I look forward to your rebuttal that will not cover any of the facts that you clearly have no facts at.
345743

[Katman]

You'll be quoting NIST next.

:tugger:

[MaxPenguin]

Ah yes. You mean like those senators did when they sold of millions in stocks each after a confidential briefing on the likely effects of the virus?
And as yet nobody has been charged with insider trading, even the one who is married to the CEO of the NY Stock Exchange - who also, by a remarkable coincidence, unloaded millions of dollars worth of shares at the same time as his wife.

Oh, and a random thought that has been bothering me for a few days now: The way things are going, in a week or two Trumps idiocy and incompetence and the virus will have killed more Americans than Ho Chi Minh and General Giap managed during an entire war.

Pretty sure that members of the Senate cannot be charged with insider trading. Basically to protect them as they have private investments as well as being politicians, and are privy to info that everyday investors aren't. But they do have a moral obligation to be impartial and not act on the insider info they get.
Ask yourself the question, would you unload the shares if you knew what they KNEW?

[Katman]

Do you have any evidence that the FBI and the SEC did not investigate the rumours?

See this quote here.....


Dennis Lormel
Chief, Financial Crimes Section, FBI
Federal Bureau of Investigation "we have examined three transactions involving individuals in San Diego. Based on all of the evidence, we have concluded that none of these transactions involved a net transfer of funds to the hijackers."

That's all the FBI investigated - whether the transfer of funds went to the hijackers.

The real question has to be, 'who did the transfer of funds go to?'

That's who should have been charged with insider trading.

[husaberg]

That shouldn't come as any surprise.

No-one's been charged over the insider trading that went on immediately before 9/11 either.

You know the one - the one where they said no-one could have envisaged planes flying into buildings.

Except they were conducting a military exercise at the time that included the scenario of planes flying into buildings.

It's all very confusing. :wacko:


You are confused though, as there werre investigation into alleged insider trading after 911 they found no evidence of insider trading.
Do you have some evidence of some insider trading prior to 911 by people other than those directly related to the attack. ie the terrorists and their organization.


By the 9/11 Commission.

You know - the one that was "set up to fail".


Lets see is it a fact as usual have no evidence though.........
Do you understand it is a fact that both the FBI and the SEC investigated the rumors of insider trading and that both reported they uncovered no evidence..


Isntit odd that you consider yourself to be etter at identifuying insider trading than SEC and the FBI.
Its almost like how you claim to have more knowledge about Medicine and vaccine safety than the doctors and scientist do.........
What experience and qualification qualifies you above the SEC and FBI investigators Stevo?


All you're doing is quoting the 9/11 Commission report.

You know - the commission that was "set up to fail".


really The FBI and the SEC investigated the rumours neither found any evidence the fact you have had two opportunities to list the evidence you have and you have yet to offer a single piece of evidence suggests you as normal have no evidence.
It also seem you have no logical basis to claim you have superior abilities of investigation abilities beyond the FBI or THE SEC either.
https://www.sec.gov/news/press/2004-98.htm
345741



Do you have any evidence that the FBI and the SEC did not investigate the rumours?
becuase both the SEC and the FBI say they did.
I look forward to your rebuttal that will not cover any of the facts that you clearly have no facts at.
345743


See this quote here.....



That's all the FBI investigated - whether the transfer of funds went to the hijackers.

The real question has to be, 'who did the transfer of funds go to?'

That's who should have been charged with insider trading.

Lets see spin a lie and then try and act like you were right..................
by ignoring all the facts that clearly show you were entirely and utterly wrong.

[Katman]

...and act like you were right..................

Unfortunately for you, it ain't no act.

[pritch]

Pretty sure that members of the Senate cannot be charged with insider trading.

Sorry, wrong.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2020/03/20/senators-accused-of-insider-trading-dumping-stocks-after-coronavirus-briefings/#4e3d601d4a45

And then there was Congressman Collins who was sentenced to 26 months jail recently for using information received through his position in share trades..

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/former-rep-chris-collins-sentenced-to-just-over-two-years-in-federal-prison/ar-BBZ4BOZ

[husaberg]

Unfortunately for you, it ain't no act.

You are not fooling anyone stevo
https://www.psychologytoday.com/nz/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/200807/do-narcissists-really-hate-themselves-deep-down-inside
As because, despite your allegations, your claims, your posturing and your denials . Its irrefutable (to anyone that is logical and of sound mind), that both the FBI and the SEC investigated the allegations and found no evidence of insider trading and its clear that both of the organisations are far more qualified than you are.

[MaxPenguin]

Sorry, wrong.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2020/03/20/senators-accused-of-insider-trading-dumping-stocks-after-coronavirus-briefings/#4e3d601d4a45

And then there was Congressman Collins who was sentenced to 26 months jail recently for using information received through his position in share trades..

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/former-rep-chris-collins-sentenced-to-just-over-two-years-in-federal-prison/ar-BBZ4BOZ

Ok, good info. I was wrong by the looks of it, still my question stands.

[pritch]

Ok, good info. I was wrong by the looks of it, still my question stands.

Briefly? No. I have no desire to share a cell with big Bubba.

[pritch]

If this is true, can a vaccine even be a possibility?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/04/25/coronavirus-latest-news/

[husaberg]

Trump has likely done his last Q&A


Trump Twitter “What is the purpose of having White House News Conferences when the Lamestream Media asks nothing but hostile questions, & then refuses to report the truth or facts accurately,”


Trump Twitter “Was just informed that the Fake News from the Thursday White House Press Conference had me speaking & asking questions of Dr. Deborah Birx. Wrong, I was speaking to our Laboratory expert, not Deborah, about sunlight etc. & the CoronaVirus. The Lamestream Media is corrupt & sick!” he tweeted.

The transcript released by the White House shows that he did direct a question to Birx.


“Deborah, have you ever heard of that? The heat and the light, relative to certain viruses, yes, but relative to this virus –” Trump asked her.
“Not as a treatment,” Birx responded cautiously. “I mean, certainly fever is a good thing.”

Trump then claims

"I was asking a question sarcastically to reporters ... to see what would happen," the president said on Friday as he signed another coronavirus relief bill into law. He had faced a torrent of ridicule for his comments, which were directed at doctors on his coronavirus taskforce, not at reporters.


Shortly after Vice President Mike Pence delivered his mutterings.
Trump walked directly out as reporters shouted from the gallery "is now the time for sarcasm?"​

[Gearup]

If this is true, can a vaccine even be a possibility?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/04/25/coronavirus-latest-news/


It certainly doesn't look good. Was also just reading about US Doctors reporting a 7 fold increase in stroke cases from blood clots, linked to the virus, but happening to otherwise healthy 30s and 40s age groups.

[Gearup]

Trump likely done his last Q&A

Twitter “What is the purpose of having White House News Conferences when the Lamestream Media asks nothing but hostile questions, & then refuses to report the truth or facts accurately,”

Twitter “Was just informed that the Fake News from the Thursday White House Press Conference had me speaking & asking questions of Dr. Deborah Birx. Wrong, I was speaking to our Laboratory expert, not Deborah, about sunlight etc. & the CoronaVirus. The Lamestream Media is corrupt & sick!” he tweeted.

“Deborah, have you ever heard of that? The heat and the light, relative to certain viruses, yes, but relative to this virus –” Trump asked her.
“Not as a treatment,” Birx responded cautiously. “I mean, certainly fever is a good thing.”

Trump then claims
"I was asking a question sarcastically to reporters ... to see what would happen," the president said on Friday as he signed another coronavirus relief bill into law. He had faced a torrent of ridicule for his comments, which were directed at doctors on his coronavirus taskforce, not at reporters.

Shortly after Vice President Mike Pence delivered his word salad,
Trump walked directly out as reporters shouted from the gallery "is now the time for sarcasm?"​


Lolz, even his mate Piers Morgan had a go at him publicly about it. Trump responded by unfollowing him on Twitter.

[Viking01]

https://archive.is/20200418182037/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh

[Edit]

Now that Boris is back on deck, he has announced that all is well, that the UK is now past its peak and is sliding down the hill:

https://www.france24.com/en/20200430-united-kingdom-uk-boris-johnson-coronavirus-covid-19-death-toll-past-peak

Though some of his critics disagree:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/apr/30/breathless-boris-is-left-floundering-as-he-faces-foe-he-cant-outbluster

Check back in a week's time and see how well placed his optimism was.

[09.05.2020]
Can't see any (appreciable) improvement in the interim.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

[Viking01]

I see that Trump has refused to sign off on any further social payouts unless a cut in payroll tax (funding social security) is agreed at the same time.

https://consortiumnews.com/2020/05/07/covid-19-seniors-rip-trump-for-tying-relief-to-social-security-cuts/

This comes a week after Mitch McConnell stated that he was agreeable with states declaring bankruptcy, and in doing so, wiping out accrued entitlements for state pensions.

Seems to be just another attempt to erode the existing US social welfare systems (based on past articles):

https://truthout.org/articles/in-destroying-social-security-gop-has-no-plans-for-elderly-americans/

https://truthout.org/articles/our-counterfeit-social-security-crisis/

Not to mention the fact that the underlying investments - supposedly to fund such schemes - have already been pillaged, and that the accrued entitlements are currently represented in large by " government IOU's " - with actual payments to be funded by future tax take.

[Naki Rat]

The Plandemic documentary is currently being posted onto YouTube as fast as it is being blocked. It contains some pretty damning claims relating to the vaccine research industry and the movers and shakers in it. Take a watch of it while this link exists, or search the movie title once it's blocked. (This video seems to be a continuing loop of the first 25 minutes or so).


https://youtu.be/YWb2GwUACHU

As the presenter says fear makes a very effective motivator but which fear is well founded?

[Katman]

Take a watch of it while this link exists, or search the movie title once it's blocked.

And the greater the effort they put into removing it makes me even more convinced that it's something we should all be watching.

[Viking01]

The Plandemic documentary is currently being posted onto YouTube as fast as it is being blocked. It contains some pretty damning claims relating to the vaccine research industry and the movers and shakers in it. Take a watch of it while this link exists, or search the movie title once it's blocked. (This video seems to be a continuing loop of the first 25 minutes or so).


https://youtu.be/YWb2GwUACHU

As the presenter says fear makes a very effective motivator but which fear is well founded?

I'm not commenting either way, but seems to have been a number of opinions on the points contained within the video e.g.

https://www.rt.com/usa/488215-plandemic-conspiracy-documentary-censorship/

But on an area of interest to me (Scandinavia) - where there has been a difference in the approach adopted - with Sweden not adopting a lock-down approach (vs Norway, Denmark and Finland) , it was interesting to see the latest comment from Sweden's chief epidemiologist Anders Tegnell:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/coronavirus-sweden-lockdown-chief-says-high-death-toll-was-surprise-2020-5

[pritch]

I'm not commenting either way, but seems to have been a number of opinions on the points contained within the video


It's difficult to know the truth, you'd need an advanced degree and insider knowledge of the system. Her tale of being locked up without cause though is apparently bollocks and that's a bad start.

[Katman]

I'm not commenting either way, but seems to have been a number of opinions on the points contained within the video e.g.

On the subject of 'lacking supporting evidence', the video that is being studiously hidden from us is just the trailer for the full documentary.

Perhaps the supporting evidence will be presented at a later date.

Either way, she's called Anthony Fauci out in a way that he surely can't ignore.

Maybe Judy might be found with a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the back of the head.

[Naki Rat]

It's difficult to know the truth, you'd need an advanced degree and insider knowledge of the system. Her tale of being locked up without cause though is apparently bollocks and that's a bad start.
Kim Hill raised the veracity of Dr Mikovits's claims with a virologist on her show yesterday morning and apparently the claim of there being no vaccines for RNA viruses doesn't hold water. Veterinary vaccines exist for rabies among others.

The blocking of alternative views by YouTube recently is concerning though. Dr Andrew Saul who promotes high dose IV vitamin C has had numerous posts taken down in relation to treatment research trials using this against COVID-19 in Chinese studies. There is also increasing evidence of vitamin D being effective in protecting against COVID-19 but that isn't grabbing much traction. Is it due to the fact that vitamins are cheap and can't readily be patented by big pharma??


https://youtu.be/Bga_qG30JyY

[Katman]

The blocking of alternative views by YouTube recently is concerning though.

And I suspect there's a large proportion of people who are quite happy about that blocking.

That's the real concern.

[pete376403]

re the Plandemic "documentary"

"At one point, Mikovits claims that she “taught” Ebola cells in a U.S. Army laboratory at Fort Detrick how to infect human cells in 1999, effectively saying that she weaponized the disease against humans.

“Ebola couldn’t infect human cells until we took them in the laboratories and taught them,” Mikovits.

If accurate, that would mean that Mikovits is partially responsible for 11,300 deaths from the 2014-2016 Ebola outbreak alone. But her claim doesn’t make any sense, because the first recorded cases of human Ebola infection were recorded 23 years earlier, in 1976. The Daily Beast was not able to verify that Mikovits worked at the laboratory.

And she makes the bizarre argument that wearing a mask somehow makes a person more susceptible to the virus.

“Wearing the mask literally activates your own virus,” Mikovits said. “You’re getting sick from your own reactivated coronavirus expressions.”

“Plandemic” throws out so many false claims in its 22 minutes that it’s difficult for a lay viewer to keep track of what’s true, according to Gorski.

“You just shoot so much misinformation out there that it blasts you back,” Gorski said.

Willis has a history of his own that suggests he isn’t rigorously committed to scientific accuracy in his films."

[Katman]

…..according to Gorski.

Nobody would expect 'Gorski' to write any different.

[pritch]

“You just shoot so much misinformation out there that it blasts you back,” Gorski said.


Or as Steve Bannon put it, "Flood the zone with shit." The problem then is that there are too many people who are unable to sort the shit from the rest. People like the serially ill informed anti-vaxxers.

These days the zone is indeed flooded and it is getting difficult to distinguish the truth from nonsense even for people who were not previously easily deluded.

The social media giants are currently causing concern by what they censor and what they don't. This clip has reportedly been censored by some but is still on YouTube. The Lincoln project paid $5000 to have the ad shown during Tucker Carlson's show on Fox. In one area only, the District of Columbia. They had just the one viewer in mind, and hours later in the wee small hours Trump was still firing off angry tweets. Job done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_yG_-K2MDo

[Naki Rat]

.....

These days the zone is indeed flooded and it is getting difficult to distinguish the truth from nonsense even for people who were not previously easily deluded.

[/url]When the conspiracy video is convincing enough for Kim Hill to ask about its veracity you know they've done a good job of baffling the masses.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018745802 Question asked at 7:23 The answer eventually is influenza, measles, polio and rabies are all RNA viruses with vaccines.

[pete376403]

When the conspiracy video is convincing enough for Kim Hill to ask about its veracity you know they've done a good job of baffling the masses..

Perhaps it is similar to the reporter who asked Jacinda about "5g spreading the virus" - sometimes the stupid question has to be asked and answered, otherwise if the topic is not raised, the conspiracy freaks see it as "obvious suppression of important facts"

[F5 Dave]

Lord Satin Hulalooyuh. It raining mien. Hullalooya, it raining mien.

[pritch]

Perhaps it is similar to the reporter who asked Jacinda about "5g spreading the virus" - sometimes the stupid question has to be asked and answered, otherwise if the topic is not raised, the conspiracy freaks see it as "obvious suppression of important facts"

That's a good point. The quality of some of the questions asked has been somewhat depressing. Haven't listened to all the 1.00PM prayer meetings but will for the next few days.

[Kickaha]

The Plandemic documentary is currently being posted onto YouTube as fast as it is being blocked. It contains some pretty damning claims relating to the vaccine research industry and the movers and shakers in it. ?

It has already been thoroughly debunked by multiple sources however that does not get anywhere now as much publicity as the Doco itself

Judy Mikovits has posted a fair amount of questionable material around vaccines in the past which has also been shown to be false

[Kickaha]

I've been trying to upload YouTube vids of me ramming Gods Arse. He squeals like a bitch.

Any Anti vaxers like to take the 45 second challenge? :second:

That means up the number two's.

Are you fucking drunk again ?

[F5 Dave]

Uh, duh. Its Sunday and I've made an out standing dinner. Lamb loins baked with garlic, Wooster sauce and dads vegetable relish.


Then I boiled some potatoes and roughly chopped them. Added some super fine onion. Mustard, left over ham. Feta, garlic and herbs. Egg and parmesan. Then baked. Finally with some cheese.

And frozen home grown scarlet runner beans boiled just for a moment.

Golly it was good.

I might have had some fancy beer. Behemoth pils. Then Something Hoppy then Hazy (7,2%)

Then sav which nz is famous for with good reason.

[Kickaha]

. Then baked.

You sound baked

[F5 Dave]

Mate, it was beautiful. I was trying to create a new side dish. Missus was pretty happy which considering the specific day, made it like it was specifically specific.

[mashman]

Gotta wonder what's gonna happen if it comes back. Will we go back to bubble living or we will say fuck it, you gotta die for the benefit of the economy.

[pritch]

This came under the heading "Life comes at you fast."

[Kickaha]

This came under the heading "Life comes at you fast."

Nek minute, headline reads "shooting at a law firm"

What can you expect from a country when a security guard is shot dead for asking people to wear a mask and employees at Maccas are shot for not allowing people to dine in

[Viking01]

https://www.vox.com/2020/5/11/21254451/south-korea-nightclub-outbreak-coronavirus-infections-reopening-dangers

[Berries]

Or even staying in lockdown - Faster faster. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/the-coronavirus-pandemic-emptied-americas-highways-now-speeders-have-taken-over/2020/05/10/c98d570c-8bb4-11ea-9dfd-990f9dcc71fc_story.html)

Actually, pretty cool active bar chart towards the bottom of this page - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51235105?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world/asia&link_location=live-reporting-story

[pritch]

Actually, pretty cool active bar chart towards the bottom of this page -

Yeah,interesting. The Financial Times have good international coverage too. Normally most of their content is behind a paywall but access to the pandemic content is free.

One interesting point they make is that scientists suspected the death rate might be much higher than reported. As a check they are looking at the average deaths for that month for each country and then comparing the result to the current figure. The current figure is often higher, sometimes much higher. The conclusion is that deaths attributable to the virus are being under reported.

https://www.ft.com/content/a26fbf7e-48f8-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441

[Naki Rat]

https://youtu.be/QcUAG6t5aN8

[Viking01]

https://www.thenational.ae/world/coronavirus-antibody-studies-show-herd-immunity-experiments-are-very-dangerous-1.1018403

[pritch]

Making other countries look really bad?

https://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=311504&fm=psp,tsf

[husaberg]

Making other countries look really bad?

https://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=311504&fm=psp,tsf

If you cant trust a one party dictatorship to give you the good information about how great they are doing who can you trust..............
What interesting is how infectious this one is compared to Sars
if this one had the same death rate as SARS did we would all be in big dodo.
from memory the SARs death rate one was about 1 in 10 but a lot faster incubation period, its looks like Covid 19 is one 1 in 100. bt seems to be more infectious and harder to stop as most dont display symptoms till after they have spread it.

[pete376403]

Science and facts. Might upset some people.Its quite long and not many pictures. https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR1dWRoqz0GM_a6fPUx215shF2TfcUfynTSd k42W41G25Z59cin9VFWTqdk

[eldog]

Only in humans?:wait:

dont other mammals breathe as well?

or have I missed something?

[eldog]

Science and facts. Might upset some people.Its quite long and not many pictures. https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR1dWRoqz0GM_a6fPUx215shF2TfcUfynTSd k42W41G25Z59cin9VFWTqdk

Sobering reading....

people complaining about limiting numbers should read the section about ‘Bob’

most people seem to think it’s all over here in NZ.
hard to visualise so many deaths overseas.

wondering if the Swedish model is better (the virus kind of model)

but it will it evolve?:shit::soon:

[jasonu]

Science and facts. Might upset some people.Its quite long and not many pictures. https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR1dWRoqz0GM_a6fPUx215shF2TfcUfynTSd k42W41G25Z59cin9VFWTqdk

Good read thanks

[pritch]

Science and facts. Might upset some people.Its quite long and not many pictures. https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR1dWRoqz0GM_a6fPUx215shF2TfcUfynTSd k42W41G25Z59cin9VFWTqdk

Makes sense.

[pritch]

Yuk! And I used to dislike the idea American hormone packed meat and chicken...


https://www.businessinsider.com.au/coronavirus-federal-memo-reveals-trucks-used-for-dead-2020-5?r=US&IR=T

[husaberg]

Yuk! And I used to dislike the idea American hormone packed meat and chicken...


https://www.businessinsider.com.au/coronavirus-federal-memo-reveals-trucks-used-for-dead-2020-5?r=US&IR=T

Jimmy hoffa was all for the Meat Packers and Teamsters working together..............

[Viking01]

The Erin Bromage article was well written. With some good comments on contagion, and types of venues one might like to avoid in the short term (and why).

Strains

One aspect of this Covid experience that seems lacking (in terms of availability of reliable information) is the number of and variation between strains (viral load) that are in circulation. Some strains appear to be up to 270x more potent than the least virulent .

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/shocking-study-finds-coronavirus-mutations-are-much-deadlier-original

The point being that our "Covid experience" may vary with location, and which particular strains are in circulation.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8206625/America-hit-COVID-19-two-continents-studies-suggest.html

Also an important consideration when trying to synthesise a vaccine that will provide wide coverage (high efficacy).

"Immunity" for a decent period afterwards (say > 1 year) may be dependent upon how rapidly that various strains mutate, and whether the vaccine will also address those new mutations as well. You cannot make presumptions of immunity until there has been some clinical testing (of immunoglobulin serum) and follow-up for reinfection. Which will take some time.

Sweden

Eldog raised the topic of Sweden earlier. Which is acting in contrast with its near neighbours (not only Denmark, but also Norway and Finland - who are following the Danish approach of lockdown). Hence my interest.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/03/26/neighbours-denmark-and-sweden-miles-apart-on-coronavirus-confinement

The "Swedish experience" seems to be quite political, with opinion varying with political viewpoint (left vs right), as well as value of human life vs business cost incurred. I think it still too early to make a judgement on Sweden's adoption of a high trust model based upon "social distancing". Though politicians still have to make decisions (supposedly on behalf of their wider population).

[Edit]
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/05/foreign-affairs-runs-propaganda-from-swedish-employers-on-swedens-covid-19-fiasco-failing-to-disclose-sponsorship-and-misrepresenting-results.html

I'm not an epidemiologist, and I don't profess to have any expertise in this area. Just my own opinion, like everyone else. But I post four links quoting the Swedish epidemiologists themselves. The first and second relate to an interview with the chief Swedish epidemiologist, Anders Tignall, while the third relates to handling of "hotspots" such as immigrant communities.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/coronavirus-sweden-lockdown-chief-says-high-death-toll-was-surprise-2020-5

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/coronavirus-sweden-open-no-lockdown-effects-result-anders-tengell-a9495806.html

https://apnews.com/1d7916cf6e48b7a231b894ef9cda1a19

The fourth link is from an interview with Johan Giesecke (Tignall's recruiter as well as an advisor to the Swedish government). I include it only because of the last bullet point in the article.

https://www.zerohedge.com/health/sweden-vs-covid-19-why-herd-immunity-matters-why-lockdown-doesnt-really-work

I posted a link on "herd immunity" earlier in the thread (#166).

The "herd immunity" theory rests on the idea of shielding the most vulnerable members of a country's population from infection while allowing a large percentage of others to catch the virus. The hope is that most of these people would experience relatively mild symptoms, recover, and wind up immune, stopping the virus’s further transmission.

But this kind of herd immunity, experts say, could require upwards of 60% of the population becoming infected. Herd immunity as a deliberate policy, is usually achieved through a vaccination program (i.e. when a vaccine is already available and is being deployed in parallel - which is not the case here) . Herd immunity is untested as a tool for responding to a pandemic.

From very recent bulk testing of an increasing proportion of the Swedish population, only between 5-10% of the tested population are currently showing signs of Covid-19 related antibodies being present. Which conflicts with Giesecke's assertion.

Meaning that a considerable proportion of the Swedish population would still need to be infected if this type of "experiment" was to be deliberately pursued.

So, if all the infection and death count statistics currently available online (e.g. John Hopkins) relate only to a 5-10% actual infection level within the Swedish population, what would have been the impact - on Sweden's health system and death counts - had a higher level of infection been present ? You'll have to make your own judgement.

[Edit] Swedish economy not immune

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/30/coronavirus-sweden-economy-to-contract-as-severely-as-the-rest-of-europe.html

[pritch]

Slight change of subject and referring back to some earlier posts on insider trading.

As dramatic as the move against Burr is, and it definitely is serious, there does not seem to have been a similar move against Senator Kelly Loeffler who will by now have sanitised her phone. Sanitizing the cloud may be more difficult though.

She too had sold off shares immediately following the briefing, as had her husband who is CEO of the company that owns the New York Stock Exchange.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/14/fbi-richard-burr-warrant/

[Viking01]

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/05/15/roaming-charges-unmasked-and-anonymous/

[pritch]

I was listening to a podcast discussing the current situation in the US movie industry which is currently parked and motionless. The thought was expressed that some directors want to bring their crews to NZ and Australia to do filming.

Obviously the low case count appeals to them, but I'm not sure importing a load of Americans would be the best way to keep the count that way.

[Naki Rat]

I was listening to a podcast discussing the current situation in the US movie industry which is currently parked and motionless. The thought was expressed that some directors want to bring their crews to NZ and Australia to do filming.

Obviously the low case count appeals to them, but I'm not sure importing a load of Americans would be the best way to keep the count that way.One of the movies that has intentions along those lines is a dramatisation of the Thai cave rescue. I have a relative within the industry that has been asked about NZ's likely similarity to Thailand. Those in the industry are fully aware and potentially compliant with current quarantine measures apparently.

[Viking01]

https://sputniknews.com/science/202006291079751750-gilead-plans-to-charge-over-3000-for-covid-19-antiviral-remdesivir/

[ Edit ]

https://www.aljazeera.com/ajimpact/gilead-prices-covid-19-drug-remdesivir-faces-competition-200629141223536.html

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/06/29/absolute-robbery-gilead-announces-3120-price-tag-covid-19-drug-developed-70-million

[Viking01]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/us-buys-up-world-stock-of-key-covid-19-drug

[Naki Rat]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/us-buys-up-world-stock-of-key-covid-19-drugTrials on remdesivir have shown it reduces the duration of symptoms but doesn't improve mortality. $3,200 for six days' worth of this drug doesn't sound like a very good deal, until you realise what US hospital stays cost I guess.

Seems like just another case of Trump not having a f*ckin clue on scientific matters but thinking he's a financial whiz in cornering markets.= :facepalm:

[Naki Rat]

Excellent podcast with Michael Moore interviewing Laurie Garrett. A brutally honest appraisal of the current COVID situation in the US and where we're all headed.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-98-ladies-gentlemen-this-is-plague-feat-laurie-garrett/id1490354763?i=1000482810591

[MD]

Can't be bothered reading 13 pages of posts but I am bloody proud of NZ and how we eradicated Covid in such a short time. No pain no gain as they say and it worked. Now we have this hard earned but fragile safe haven we must keep it that way. There is only one way we can get Covid- by letting people step off a plane or boat onto NZ soil. It's really that simple - close the border. It's getting scary watching over the last week how Victoria is deteriorating so fast after border security failures. There's just no room for error.

I'm with Winston when he takes aim at these late returning Kiwis that ignored the earlier February & March calls to 'GET HOME NOW'. The writing was loud and clear back then that the world was about to turn to shit with a global pandemic. Every case we now have (20+) stepped of a recent plane- spot the problem?

The ones in hotels for 2 weeks at our expense that are moaning and sneaking out should be put on a plane back to where they came from. Aussie has introduced user pay for returning ex-pats, so should we. Anyone who sneaks across the Victoria to NSW border faces a $11,000 fine and 6 months in prison. Tough love for the good of the many.

Everything we gained from lockdown and the job loses that we have had to bear will all be lost, and a hell of a lot worse will follow if it gets back in. Hey this should be in the have a whinge thread.

[Viking01]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/300051726/coronavirus-melbourne-will-reenter-lockdown-for-six-weeks-amidst-unsustainably-high-numbers-of-new-cases

[Katman]

It's really that simple - close the border. It's getting scary watching over the last week how Victoria is deteriorating so fast after border security failures. There's just no room for error.

Well it's not quite that simple.

Whether we like it or not, no-one has the right to deny a citizen of a particular country re-entry into that country.

What can be done (and most certainly needs to be done) is to regulate the rate at which those people return, to a number that can effectively and safety be managed.

Once those people are here the isolation protocol needs to be followed to the letter of the law - without exception.

That means tough luck for anyone wanting early release to attend funerals, weddings or anything similar.

[husaberg]

Confidential patient information available just contact the National party head office direct.


Not only do we have the latest two leaks.

Boag has done it previous

In 2012, Boag was implicated in an ACC scandal relating to leaked information of 6700 claimants.
Former National Party president Michelle Boag also said some elements within the National Party may have leaked information relating to ACC and Bronwyn Pullar
A recording of a critical meeting between senior ACC managers and the whistleblower who exposed a massive privacy breach reveals the corporation misled its minister and the public.
The corporation has alleged that client Bronwyn Pullar threatened at the meeting to go to the media unless she was given a guaranteed two-year benefit.
It also alleged she said that she would withhold details of the breach involving the private details of 6500 other clients – including sexual abuse victims – if her demands were not met.
Once details of the privacy breach were revealed by The Dominion Post, the ACC referred its extortion allegations against Pullar to police.
However, a recording of a key meeting in December between Pullar, her support person Michelle Boag – a senior National Party figure – and two ACC managers is at odds with the corporation's claims that were included in a report ordered by ACC Minister Judith Collins.
The ACC was given a transcript of the meeting more than three weeks ago, but has refused to correct its report.


i am not sure why it surprise people when the fromer deputy leader did the same

Social Development Minister Paula Bennett has refused to apologise to a single mother whose income details she released in 2009 - and will not rule out taking the same action again in the future


Allegations on the Bridge: Paula Bennett's press secretary leaking info to media about Te Puea's Hurimoana Dennis under police investigation

then we have crusher

Former police minister Judith Collins is depicted in alleged social media conversations discussing the leak of evidence in a high profile case to blogger Cameron Slater, according to new information from the hacker Rawshark.
The Rawshark files have Ms Collins contacting Slater late at night in September 2011 to complain about a TVNZ interview subject's views on the Urewera raids. Charges against 13 of the 17 people charged had just been dropped creating a contentious issue for Ms Collins to manage as police minister.



udith Collins has resigned as a Minister from Cabinet, with the emergence of an email that suggests that she was undermining the then-head of the Serious Fraud Office while she was Police Minister.
The email refers to former SFO chief executive Adam Feeley to the State Services Commission for celebrating the laying of charges against failed company Bridgecorp with a bottle of champagne recovered from Bridgecorp's former headquarters in 2010.

or more Anne Tolley

Former National Party minister Anne Tolley says she shared confidential details of Winston Peters' pension overpayments with family members and staff.
She first learned of the issue at a weekly meeting with former Ministry of Social Development chief executive Brendan Boyle on July 31, 2017.

[MD]

Well it's not quite that simple.

Whether we like it or not, no-one has the right to deny a citizen of a particular country re-entry into that country.

What can be done (and most certainly needs to be done) is to regulate the rate at which those people return, to a number that can effectively and safety be managed.

Once those people are here the isolation protocol needs to be followed to the letter of the law - without exception.

That means tough luck for anyone wanting early release to attend funerals, weddings or anything similar.
Quite right they have right to return but that must be weighed up against any harm their return will cause us all. Good to see on last night's News the PM is slowing the rate with Air NZ to stop taking bookings for the next 3 weeks to reduce the strain on the isolation centres. As she responded to the new Nat leader feeble attack, 'we're not denying them the right to return, we're just spreading out the arrivals so the risks can be safely managed.'

As for the arsehole from India who absconded yesterday to pop down to the Supermarket after testing Covid POSITIVE - Send the prick back to India. He has given the finger to all NZers and clearly thinks that he is more important than anything else in the world and with one selfish action potentially undone all we worked for. What is it with all this self entitlement behaviour these days. It's bloody everywhere. I grew up in a world of caring people.

[Murray]

As for the arsehole from India who absconded yesterday to pop down to the Supermarket after testing Covid POSITIVE - Send the prick back to India. He has given the finger to all NZers and clearly thinks that he is more important than anything else in the world and with one selfish action potentially undone all we worked for. What is it with all this self entitlement behaviour these days. It's bloody everywhere. I grew up in a world of caring people.

Nah just charge him Countdowns loss of Revenue for the day they now have to be closed and the wage of the staff that now are self isolating. Stuff these bastards

[husaberg]

Quite right they have right to return but that must be weighed up against any harm their return will cause us all. Good to see on last night's News the PM is slowing the rate with Air NZ to stop taking bookings for the next 3 weeks to reduce the strain on the isolation centres. As she responded to the new Nat leader feeble attack, 'we're not denying them the right to return, we're just spreading out the arrivals so the risks can be safely managed.'

As for the arsehole from India who absconded yesterday to pop down to the Supermarket after testing Covid POSITIVE - Send the prick back to India. He has given the finger to all NZers and clearly thinks that he is more important than anything else in the world and with one selfish action potentially undone all we worked for. What is it with all this self entitlement behaviour these days. It's bloody everywhere. I grew up in a world of caring people.

Karen as usual, is wrong in his reply to you.
No mater If you are a citizen by grant,or If you are a citizen by birth or If you are a citizen by descent
Citizenship can be removed by the minister of internal affairs if you voluntarily act against the interests of New Zealand.
https://www.govt.nz/browse/passports-citizenship-and-identity/nz-citizenship/changing-your-citizenship-status/being-stripped-of-nz-citizenship/

[Katman]

Karen as usual, is wrong in his reply to you.
No mater If you are a citizen by grant,or If you are a citizen by birth or If you are a citizen by descent
Citizenship can be removed by the minister of internal affairs if you voluntarily act against the interests of New Zealand.
https://www.govt.nz/browse/passports-citizenship-and-identity/nz-citizenship/changing-your-citizenship-status/being-stripped-of-nz-citizenship/

Expecting to be allowed back into the country that you're a citizen of is certainly not grounds for having your citizenship revoked.

(And btw, if you hold no other citizenship other than that of the country of your birth, that citizenship cannot be revoked).

[husaberg]

Expecting to be allowed back into the country that you're a citizen of is certainly not grounds for having your citizenship revoked.

(And btw, if you hold no other citizenship other than that of the country of your birth, that citizenship cannot be revoked).

only thats not what you said now is it, or what i said either.
this is what you said
"Whether we like it or not, no-one has the right to deny a citizen of a particular country re-entry into that country."
This is what i said.
No mater If you are a citizen by grant,or If you are a citizen by birth or If you are a citizen by descent
Citizenship can be removed by the minister of internal affairs if you voluntarily act against the interests of New Zealand.

Seeing as i what i said is the LAW in NZ and what you said is a half baked opinion that's is clearly wrong.

Your statement is patently untrue, feel free to ague it all you want but it wont be with me, as you are not worth the typing.

[Katman]

only thats not what you said now is it or what i said either."

Whether we like it or not, no-one has the right to deny a citizen of a particular country re-entry into that country."

No mater If you are a citizen by grant,or If you are a citizen by birth or If you are a citizen by descent
Citizenship can be removed by the minister of internal affairs if you voluntarily act against the interests of New Zealand.

Your statement ispatently untrue, feel free to ague it al you want but it wont be with me, as you are not worth the typing.

Well if you've done nothing that qualifies as acting against the interests of New Zealand then your citizenship certainly cannot be revoked - doubly so if it's the only citizenship you hold.

But continue shooting yourself in the foot if you wish.

[jellywrestler]

So once the vaccines here and all but 50000anti vaxxers have had it and are reasonably well protected from it, what sacrifices will we have to make to keep the anti vaxxers away from Covid? I see a lifetime of like we are right now simply.

[husaberg]

So once the vaccines here and all but 50000anti vaxxers have had it and are reasonably well protected from it, what sacrifices will we have to make to keep the anti vaxxers away from Covid? I see a lifetime of like we are right now simply.

the most vocal of the antivaxer on Kb has no children yet vaccinates their dog. Go figure........:facepalm:

[Katman]

So once the vaccines here and all but 50000anti vaxxers have had it and are reasonably well protected from it, what sacrifices will we have to make to keep the anti vaxxers away from Covid? I see a lifetime of like we are right now simply.

You should be fine Spyda. Your body must be so pickled by now that any sensible virus would run a mile from it.

[jellywrestler]

You should be fine Spyda. Your body must be so pickled by now that any sensible virus would run a mile from it.

Maybe, but what about the anti-vaxxers, I'm not one, myu neighbour is however and he has his rights to choose i beleive.
But what happens to those like me who have had a vaccine and our freedom when the ant-vaxxers are still exposed to the virus?

[Katman]

Maybe, but what about the anti-vaxxers, I'm not one, myu neighbour is however and he has his rights to choose i beleive.
But what happens to those like me who have had a vaccine and our freedom when the ant-vaxxers are still exposed to the virus?

If you've had the vaccine why the fuck should you care that your neighbour hasn't?

Or do you suspect that deep down you won't actually have any faith in the vaccine working?

[jellywrestler]

If you've had the vaccine why the fuck should you care that your neighbour hasn't?

Or do you suspect that deep down you won't actually have any faith in the vaccine working?

vaccines will only cover the strains they are designed for, or we'd have no flu for example.

my neighbours a good mate, and his choice is for him .

whther i care about my neighbour or not what will our government do to protect the anti vaxxers, and will that mean we are all up on blocks for the rest of our lives to keep the anti vaxxers safe?

[Katman]

vaccines will only cover the strains they are designed for, or we'd have no flu for example.

my neighbours a good mate, and his choice is for him .

whther i care about my neighbour or not what will our government do to protect the anti vaxxers, and will that mean we are all up on blocks for the rest of our lives to keep the anti vaxxers safe?

Have you been drinking again?

[Grumph]

Have you been drinking again?

He asks a reasonable question. It'll come down to just what is an acceptable level of active Covid infections in NZ post any vaccination programme.

Once any vaccination programme has been done and the borders are open, there will be the occasional case come in. Those most at risk are the unvaccinated.

I'd pick that there would be no public support for any measures to protect those who chose not to vaccinate.

We all have a Public Health Identifier number. Those who choose not to vaccinate should have it noted on their permanent record - and be charged for any treatment required for a Covid infection.

[Katman]

Those most at risk are the unvaccinated.

And why should that bother you? You don't seem to like unvaccinated people anyway.



I'd pick that there would be no public support for any measures to protect those who chose not to vaccinate.

Why not?

We expect the public to support putting motorcyclists back together when they crash, don't we?

[jellywrestler]

Have you been drinking again?

didn't think it was an unreasonable question, seems you did?
i do believe vaccines work simply,but i also beleiee it's an individuals choice to have or to not have them

i suspect this virus is going to hold us to ransom in one way or another for a very very long time.

[husaberg]

And why should that bother you? You don't seem to like unvaccinated people anyway.

Thats not really true , As whilst most people dont like you, respect you, or believe your paranoia, we still know you have been vaccinated, as was your pet your wife ,your sister your mother, father and most likely your nieces and nephews.
But dont let that stop you from spreading misinformation to those that actually do have children or believe those that actually have medical degrees or indeed even a degree of common sense.

[jellywrestler]

And why should that bother you? You don't seem to like unvaccinated people anyway.



Why not?

We expect the public to support putting motorcyclists back together when they crash, don't we?

all accidents are under the same deal, it was to stop people sueing each other, we also pay for cancer treatment on people who are on their way out too, and smoking illnesses is so i guess we are going to have to keep NZ shut because of the anti vaxxers....
thanks for answering my question

[Katman]

so i guess we are going to have to keep NZ shut because of the anti vaxxers....

I don't see how you figure that.

Those who choose not to be vaccinated do so accepting any risk they might be taking.

Much like those who choose to ride motorcycles.

[Bonez]

Thats not really true , As whilst most people dont like you,respect you or believe your paranoia, .What an idiotic statement Husaberk.But of course we have come to expect it after all these years......

[jellywrestler]

IThose who choose not to be vaccinated do so accepting any risk they might be taking.

until they start dying and point out the government must protect all citizens regardless of their beliefs I fear. We live in a world where the minority gt their way more often than not, often at whatever cost to others.

[Katman]

until they start dying and point out the government must protect all citizens regardless of their beliefs I fear. We live in a world where the minority gt their way more often than not, often at whatever cost to others.

Cry me a river Spyda. Do you really want to live in a 100% user pays society?

Where would that leave the aforementioned motorcyclists?

Or indeed, even those parents who allow their children to run the risk of serious injury riding dirt bikes.

Whether you like it or not, in an enlightened egalitarian society, everyone should have the same rights - vaccinated or unvaccinated.

[MaxPenguin]

Do you guys think that unvaccinated people will have travel bans after a covid vaccine is produced?

[jellywrestler]

Cry me a river Spyda.

Whether you like it or not, in an enlightened egalitarian society, everyone should have the same rights - vaccinated or unvaccinated.

I clearly said that's their right didn't I? try enlarging the font on your screen.

[Katman]

I clearly said that's their right didn't I?

But you thought you'd still have a little cry about it.

[Katman]

we also pay for cancer treatment on people who are on their way out too, and smoking illnesses is so i guess we are going to have to keep NZ shut because of the anti vaxxers....

And we also pay for the people who fuck their livers up through excessive drinking.

So what exactly is your point?

'Cos I'll tell you what it looks to me like you're trying to achieve....

As if it's not bad enough that we have a certain bloc of New Zealanders trying to alienate other New Zealand citizens and permanent residents who are trying to return home, you appear to be getting in early on the bandwagon (with Grumph tagging along for the ride) of trying to encourage alienation of those who choose not to be vaccinated, if and when one becomes available.

[MaxPenguin]

And we also pay for the people who fuck their livers up through excessive drinking.

So what exactly is your point?

'Cos I'll tell you what it looks to me like you're trying to achieve....

As if it's not bad enough that we have a certain bloc of New Zealanders trying to alienate other New Zealand citizens and permanent residents who are trying to return home, you appear to be getting in early on the bandwagon (with Grumph tagging along for the ride) of trying to encourage alienation of those who choose not to be vaccinated, if and when one becomes available.

Without generalizing, but generally anti-vaxxers are fuckwits.

[Katman]

Without generalizing, but generally anti-vaxxers are fuckwits.

And therein lies the problem.

Far too many people only ever consider the subject as two extreme opposing views - pro vs anti.

Until those people begin to realise that the truth lies somewhere in the grey area in the middle, there will never be any understanding of someone else's view point.

[MaxPenguin]

And therein lies the problem.

Far too many people only ever consider the subject as two extreme opposing views - pro vs anti.

Until those people begin to realise that the truth lies somewhere in the grey area in the middle, there will never be any understanding of someone else's view point.

Not really, the anti vaxxers generally have ridiculous opinions on many subjects making them giant pains in the ass.

[Katman]

Not really, the anti vaxxers generally have ridiculous opinions on many subjects making them giant pains in the ass.

If you really think it's as clear cut as that, you should probably let the Vaccine Injury Compensation Programme know.

You could have saved them over 4 billion dollars by now.

[onearmedbandit]

If there are undeniable links to adverse reactions in certain individuals from a particular vaccine (and I'm not stating either way whether there is or isn't) then I can fully support the right to choice. To force someone to take something that could potentially harm them is inhumane. Unfortunately the spread of fear has meant that there are now many who have no basis for choosing not to get vaccinated other than what they read on facebook. On top of that unless there is an obvious genetic marker how can determine risk? I guess it comes down to a numbers game, one that most of us are willing to play. But do we get to force everyone to play?

This certainly doesn't make me an anti-vaxxer though, I've had all mine, so have my children. In fact I can't think of anyone I know who hasn't.

[jellywrestler]

And we also pay for the people who fuck their livers up through excessive drinking.

So what exactly is your point?

'Cos I'll tell you what it looks to me like you're trying to achieve....

As if it's not bad enough that we have a certain bloc of New Zealanders trying to alienate other New Zealand citizens and permanent residents who are trying to return home, you appear to be getting in early on the bandwagon (with Grumph tagging along for the ride) of trying to encourage alienation of those who choose not to be vaccinated, if and when one becomes available.

This is a discussion, i'm putting in points to consider, it seems that you are determined to pick holes and/or undermine pretty much everything everyone says to me.
Maybe you should become a talk back host?

[Katman]

This is a discussion, i'm putting in points to consider,

And I'm countering your points.

That's what normally happens in a discussion.

[husaberg]

If you really think it's as clear cut as that, you should probably let the Vaccine Injury Compensation Programme know.

You could have saved them over 4 billion dollars by now.

More than 5,300 petitions alleging autism caused by vaccines have been filed in the vaccine court. In 2002, the court instituted the Omnibus Autism Proceeding in which plaintiffs were allowed to proceed with the three cases they considered to be the strongest before a panel of special masters. In each of the cases, the panel found that the plaintiffs had failed to demonstrate a causal effect between the MMR vaccine and autism.

As of OCT 2019 3,454,305,356vaccinations vs 4,153 cases awarded compensation for all vaccines for all conditions .

[jellywrestler]

And I'm countering your points.

That's what normally happens in a discussion.

yip, but no accusations of are you having a cry and have you been drinking etc.

You also seem to be bringing in other examples like crashing motorcycles rather than actually outlining stuff pertaining to it.

[scumdog]

More than 5,300 petitions alleging autism caused by vaccines have been filed in the vaccine court. In 2002, the court instituted the Omnibus Autism Proceeding in which plaintiffs were allowed to proceed with the three cases they considered to be the strongest before a panel of special masters. In each of the cases, the panel found that the plaintiffs had failed to demonstrate a causal effect between the MMR vaccine and autism.

As of OCT 2019 3,454,305,356vaccinations vs 4,153 cases awarded compensation for all vaccines for all conditions .



A waste of space those anti-vaxers, probably flat earth society members too...

[Katman]

yip, but no accusations of are you having a cry and have you been drinking etc.

You also seem to be bringing in other examples like crashing motorcycles rather than actually outlining stuff pertaining to it.

Those points are absolutely pertinent to the discussion that you've raised.

You're suggesting that those who choose not to be vaccinated against Covid-19 will somehow end up costing the country a fortune.

I'm countering that suggestion by pointing out that there are already a great many people costing the country a fortune.

[Viking01]

https://www.france24.com/en/20200721-troubled-trump-changes-his-tune-on-mask-wearing-calls-it-patriotic-gesture

I'm not sure whether this belongs here, or over in the Covid humour thread.

[pritch]

https://www.france24.com/en/20200721-troubled-trump-changes-his-tune-on-mask-wearing-calls-it-patriotic-gesture


It'll be interesting to see how his new briefings go. Trump would not permit the head of the Centre for Disease Control (CDC) appear before Congress. A week or two back he launched a smear campaign against Dr Fauci the nations number one pandemic expert.

It'll be interesting to see if we return to the lunacy of injecting bleach, or as is more likely the "briefings" are more in the nature of a campaign rally.

Trump's recent comment on the pandemic, "It is what it is," is correct as far as it goes. It is what it is because of his almost total inaction except to politicise it and monetise it.

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.france24.com/en/20200721-troubled-trump-changes-his-tune-on-mask-wearing-calls-it-patriotic-gesture

I'm not sure whether this belongs here, or over in the Covid humour thread.

Calling it Patriotic I think is the right move for the American Audience.

Dictating to Americans they HAVE to do something (even something in their best interests) will usually result in active resistance - it flies in the face of the individualistic mindset that has been fostered in the states.

Suggesting people do something likewise has a similar issue.

But calling something Patriotic, that evokes a sense of the bigger picture.

[Viking01]

Calling it Patriotic I think is the right move for the American Audience.

Dictating to Americans they HAVE to do something (even something in their best interests) will usually result in active resistance - it flies in the face of the individualistic mindset that has been fostered in the states.

Suggesting people do something likewise has a similar issue.

But calling something Patriotic, that evokes a sense of the bigger picture.

Noted.

But perhaps Don could have had the Stars and Stripes displayed on his mask, instead of his plain black Dart Vader look-alike ... 8-)

I mean, no-one is disputing that Don is in charge of the "Death Star" (it's well understood overseas). But he might just want to consider
"softening up his image" for the home audience.

[Edit]

https://sputniknews.com/cartoons/202007221079949174-masked-about-face/

[pritch]

So much winning...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uLJkpH__os

[husaberg]

So much winning...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uLJkpH__os

He's a real prize that one. i wonder if they found him in a fruit loop cereal packet.
Its hard to imagine how much more wining he would have done without a small loan of a 100 million dollars.

[pritch]

He's a real prize that one. i wonder if they found him in a fruit loop cereal packet.
Its hard to imagine how much more wining he would have done without a small loan of a 100 million dollars.

He was given a million for his eighth birthday and that was just the start. He (and some of his siblings) shared closer to a billion when Fred kicked the bucket.

According to his niece, before his father died, and while he was suffering from dementia, Donald J tried to get his dad to sign a codicil to the will putting him in charge of all the money. His dad would not sign. Trump's brother showed the paperwork to their mum. Her verdict was that it didn't pass the smell test.

It runs in the family. I read previously that Jr and Ivanka tried to get Donald to write Tiffany out of his will.

The greed knows no bounds.

[Viking01]

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/gop-reach-agreement-covid-19-relief-600-unemployment-boost-becomes-70-wage-replacement

[Viking01]

https://www.thenational.ae/uae/science/researchers-impressed-but-unsurprised-over-russia-s-covid-19-vaccine-development-1.1056872

Diagram of "progress" of various vaccine companies enclosed.

Is it politically correct to consider taking a Russian-made product ? Would I risk being sanctioned ?

[Edit]

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/07/vaccine-research-on-covid-19-an-update.html

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1196376.shtml

[pritch]

Was listening to Mike Hosking this morning (a thankfully rare event) and he was having a little rant about how Dr Bloomfield had mentioned that there is a high risk of Covid 19 becoming established in the community. Hosking considers this to be an admission that the government knows their policies are failing.

Had he actually listened to the news item he would have known what he was talking about, but why break the habit of a life time? Bloomfield's concern is that people on the staff of the isolation facilities, be they medical, housekeeping, or military, could catch the virus from one of their 'guests' and could have passed it to others in the community before showing symptoms.

This would seem to be a real concern but rather than see it as a failure, I'm pleased that they're at least aware of the problem.

The risk being as serious as it is with our current tight border controls, the calls for relaxing the controls from John Key etc appear completely cavalier.

[Viking01]

https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=215156

[pritch]

Wasn't quite sure where to put this, but here'll do.

Many countries are canning mass gatherings but not the Yanks. Sturgis is all go.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/huge-foolish-mistake-sturgis-residents-split-over-giant-bike-rally-n1235677

[F5 Dave]

It's fake news. This will be gone by then. Maybe they'll get a little sniffle and that will be it.

Although seriously, I've just spent a few days with a cold and the thought of having to make an interstate trip in that state is not appealing. Especially towing a trailer.

[sugilite]

Wasn't quite sure where to put this, but here'll do.

Many countries are canning mass gatherings but not the Yanks. Sturgis is all go.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/huge-foolish-mistake-sturgis-residents-split-over-giant-bike-rally-n1235677

Yes, 250000 elderly dumb fucks keen to reduce numbers for next years attendance.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/sturgis-rally-roars-ahead-despite-covid-concerns

[pritch]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/sturgis-rally-roars-ahead-despite-covid-concerns

That T shirt, "Screw COVID I went to Sturgis" will doubtless also also work as an epitaph for some.

[pritch]

We had some new cases last week, so the Trump administration is warning Americans not to travel to New Zealand because of a heightened risk of contracting Covid 19.

Brilliant. They couldn't currently come here if they wanted to, and never mind that the risk is monumentally higher where they are.

It seems that when the US Govt hires people they give them an intelligence test. If they fail the test, they get the job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sfeIoNGq2k

[husaberg]

We had some new cases last week, so the Trump administration is warning Americans not to travel to New Zealand because of a heightened risk of contracting Covid 10.

Brilliant. They couldn't currently come here if they wanted to, and never mind that the risk is monumentally higher where they are.

It seems that when the US Govt hires people they give them an intelligence test. If they fail the test, they get the job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sfeIoNGq2k

I cant remember the exat figure but one organisation said American'ts were something like 15000 times more likely to contact covid 19 in their home country than in NZ.

[F5 Dave]

Oh Lordy, just watched that. FFS!
I liked those guys though.

Maybe they are young enough to encourage the rest of the voters to make some change in that fucked up country. 1/3 of the workers have no sick leave entitlement. At all. Guess who they are? The people serving the rest of the country food and many other tasks where its z bad idea to have someone who will drag thier sick arse out of bed as if they dont go to work they cant make rent this week.

[pritch]

I cant remember the exat figure but one organisation said American'ts were something like 15000 times more likely to contact covid 19 in their home country than in NZ.

Apparently they’ve had 95,000 times as many cases as us. Here’s hoping community transmission doesn’t return here. :doctor:

[MD]

Bugger bugger shit bastards. What a shocker to hear tonight we have f'ing community spread, and spread it will. I have been so proud to be part of the country that beat the spread and eradicated covid. No known source but ultimately it has to have come from a fucking border breach. All those bleeding liberals going on about peoples rights to return to NZ. THIS IS WHY A CLOSED BORDER SHOULD BE A F'ING CLOSED BORDER.

[MaxPenguin]

Bugger bugger shit bastards. What a shocker to hear tonight we have f'ing community spread, and spread it will. I have been so proud to be part of the country that beat the spread and eradicated covid. No known source but ultimately it has to have come from a fucking border breach. All those bleeding liberals going on about peoples rights to return to NZ. THIS IS WHY A CLOSED BORDER SHOULD BE A F'ING CLOSED BORDER.

And fucken billy tekahika and Jamie Lee Ross are right now inciting their followers to rage against the covid response. Fuckers need a good kicking.

[TheDemonLord]

Well, another one to add to the long list of failed Labour projects.


But if they try and go for another big lockdown - they can get fucked.

[MaxPenguin]

Well, another one to add to the long list of failed Labour projects.


But if they try and go for another big lockdown - they can get fucked.

Well do tell us what to do then.

[TheDemonLord]

Well do tell us what to do then.

Depends on the Context, which for now will be 'Vote the incompetent Fuckers out'.

If we are talking hindsight: Everyone entering the country should have been tested and put into mandatory quarantine until the tests came through. That can either before before the Virus landed in the first instance or the resurgence of cases after the March Lockdown - making the same mistake twice...

In terms of the 'Lockdown can get fucked' - Why should we suffer through it again, when the Government will just open the borders and let the Virus back in?

[MaxPenguin]

Depends on the Context, which for now will be 'Vote the incompetent Fuckers out'.

If we are talking hindsight: Everyone entering the country should have been tested and put into mandatory quarantine until the tests came through. That can either before before the Virus landed in the first instance or the resurgence of cases after the March Lockdown - making the same mistake twice...

In terms of the 'Lockdown can get fucked' - Why should we suffer through it again, when the Government will just open the borders and let the Virus back in?

Don't think any other party would have done a better job, but yeah, the borders should be shut tight now. People have had their chance, and anyone on dual citizenship who don't usually reside here can stay out. Still too many risks in the isolation facilities for my liking. Time to harden up.