Police shoot and kill another person

[Swoop]

Used pepperspray a bit have you??
I prefer Lynx or Gillette myself.

[scumdog]

I would have thought that it would be much easier to defend in front of a judge/jury though, even if both were being dispensed at the same time.
"I tried the spray but he didn't stop, so BANG"
In fact, bang x4.
This officer does appear to know how to draw his firearm.

Listen sunshine, try this:

stand back to back with somebody wearing a gun in a holster (OK, maybe you can't actually do that)

On the word 'go' from a third person the guy without gun runs directly away from guy with gun while guy with gun starts drawing said gun.

When guy with gun has it fully drawn and into aim posititon the third guy shouts 'stop'.

At this point guy without gun will have run anything up to 12 metres before the word 'stop' is said.

So having somebody closer then 10 metres means you would be unlikely to be able to draw and fire and aimed shot in time to save yourself.

And if you had a can of pepperspray in one hand (which is limited to 3 or 4 metres outside) your draw-aim-fire time would be even longer.

If I went to a job where I may have to use my Glock without delay I would have it in my hand already to go, not in the holster.

[scumdog]

So thats another moment the cop has to spend taking that off.

No safety on the pistol I am used to, except the one residing between the ears.

No safety to operate.
Load mag into gun, rack one up the spout and she's 'hot' - ready to go just like a gun should be.

[oldrider]

I remember the Police officer first on the scene at (Dunedin) Aramoana/David Gray massacre, did everything by the book and paid for it with his life!

All you PC bastards that want every other Police Officer to do the same, can go and get stuffed as far as I am concerned.

The guy with the problem is the offender not the officer, if he doesn't want to get hurt or have his rights violated, then he shouldn't have offended.

Shoot first and argue later, at least the cop will still be alive and back with his family!

PC bastards give me the shits, get real for f**ks sake, you are shagging this country up! :mad: John.

[98tls]

Bling deserved and given..........something to offset what you will get from the tree huggers.....:sweatdrop

[Swoop]

At this point guy without gun will have run anything up to 12 metres before the word 'stop' is said.

So having somebody closer then 10 metres means you would be unlikely to be able to draw and fire and aimed shot in time to save yourself.

And if you had a can of pepperspray in one hand (which is limited to 3 or 4 metres outside) your draw-aim-fire time would be even longer.

If I went to a job where I may have to use my Glock without delay I would have it in my hand already to go, not in the holster.
Far out. Anything up to 12 metres?
You old buggers shouldn't be allowed to carry a firearm if you are going to have to put your zimmer frame down to draw!:rofl:
2-3 metres would be the expected. What distance do you train at nowadays? Still 2-3 metres?

We are happy with the outcome of the shooting. Dickhead is toast/gene pool improved.

The winner is the gubbinment.
1: More reasons to ban party pills.
2: More reason to override the tazer "review period" and issue them to all.

[oldrider]

I need a Taser to train my dog! :eek:

I was hoping to get one cheap from the Police surplus store when they finally stopped the trials! (thanks to the Greens and their PC mates)

The shot gun uses up too many bloody dogs! :doh: John.

[Grahameeboy]

Maybe someone trained to a high level in Akido may have been able to disarm this person, maybe not. It doesnt really change anything because Police Officers shouldnt have to enter into toe to toe combat with him and take that chance. He had a weapon that i have previously seen used to turn someone into a vegetable and if he doesnt respond to an armed Police Officer appealing to him to drop his hammer and stop advancing then that is his problem. He caused the Police Officer to pull the trigger.

You may not condone the officer for using the gun or me for saying i would do the same thing but it doesnt change the fact that this man did threaten an officers life and he refused to desist. The Officer waited until he was in striking distance before firing; giving the man every reasonable oppurtunity to put the hammer down and stop advancing. I really dont think you can be critical of the Officers actions or his use of a firearm.

Hard to explain but I am not criticising the cop or you..as I said we act in the agony of the moment............just a shame that this happens that is all.

You would be surprised how effective Aikdo is in a newbies hands...they used to teach it in the UK Police Force.

[Grahameeboy]

:banana:damn i just knew this shit would still be going,the guys dead because he tried to hit someone on the head with a hammer,personally i am glad he chose a cop with a gun to do it to instead of some innocent joe public,at least in this case we can be sure its the last time he tries that shit on anyone.

Agree but sad thing is this was probably an out of character thing for this guy and if he had not been shot he may not have done it again.............

[98tls]

Agree but sad thing is this was probably an out of character thing for this guy and if he had not been shot he may not have done it again............. Fair call mate and i agree with your previous post but methinks we will get alot more of the same in the future,its definately not going to get any better thats for sure.

[I Smell Bacon]

I know but they could teach the Police some simple self defence to handle hammer hardnuts.

They do but why put yourself in a position where you could easily get your brains knocked out?

A cops first duty is to allways go home to their family and taking on a lunatic with a hammer is simply taking unneccesary risks.

[peasea]

Listen sunshine, try this:

stand back to back with somebody wearing a gun in a holster (OK, maybe you can't actually do that)

On the word 'go' from a third person the guy without gun runs directly away from guy with gun while guy with gun starts drawing said gun.

When guy with gun has it fully drawn and into aim posititon the third guy shouts 'stop'.

At this point guy without gun will have run anything up to 12 metres before the word 'stop' is said.

So having somebody closer then 10 metres means you would be unlikely to be able to draw and fire and aimed shot in time to save yourself.

And if you had a can of pepperspray in one hand (which is limited to 3 or 4 metres outside) your draw-aim-fire time would be even longer.

If I went to a job where I may have to use my Glock without delay I would have it in my hand already to go, not in the holster.

Can you run that by me again? From the word 'go'.

[peasea]

Agree but sad thing is this was probably an out of character thing for this guy and if he had not been shot he may not have done it again.............

Game over!
He won't get chance numer two.

[98tls]

Once again.........before swallowing handfuls of pills remember to pack iron for later.

[peasea]

Once again.........before swallowing handfuls of pills remember to pack iron for later.

What about iron pills?

[98tls]

What about iron pills? Fucked if i know mate.......if you have enough of em it might fuck up his aim........

[peasea]

Fucked if i know mate.......if you have enough of em it might fuck up his aim........

Enough iron pills and we could all be so peaceful, coz we'd be rusta-farians!

[98tls]

Enough iron pills and we could all be so peaceful, coz we'd be rusta-farians! :clap:mate your a fa$k%n unit.............hurry up and move south before it takes hold.

[peasea]

:clap:mate your a fa$k%n unit.............hurry up and move south before it takes hold.

Was plastering the dunny today, last legs, don't panic.

Jeez, someone has to lighten up around here, ffs. I'm sick and tired of saying sensible shit, everyone gets soooooo intense. And we're not even camping!

[98tls]

Was plastering the dunny today, last legs, don't panic.

Jeez, someone has to lighten up around here, ffs. I'm sick and tired of saying sensible shit, everyone gets soooooo intense. And we're not even camping! Careful mate you will have the interweb police chasin your arse......i keep postin but they keep disappearing:wari:

[peasea]

Careful mate you will have the interweb police chasin your arse......i keep postin but they keep disappearing:wari:

They can chase this arse........

Hey, where'd my picture go?
bastards, they're onto me.

[98tls]

They can chase this arse........

Hey, where'd my picture go?
bastards, they're onto me. no shit............................thought we were doing this quite civily..fuck xcuse the spelling..pissed

[Grahameeboy]

Game over!
He won't get chance numer two.

Bit like Space Invaders I guess.

[Grahameeboy]

They do but why put yourself in a position where you could easily get your brains knocked out?

A cops first duty is to allways go home to their family and taking on a lunatic with a hammer is simply taking unneccesary risks.

See one of my previous posts.

A guy with a hammer would actually be easy to take out with simple moves.....but I do understand your point,

[Kickaha]

A guy with a hammer would actually be easy to take out with simple moves.....

Do we have anyone here who'd like to try this out?, they will get a hammer and try to bash Grahameeboy with it and he will show us how to take them out with "simple moves"

Then we'll give Scumdog a pistol and try the same thing again

[Edbear]

Do we have anyone here who'd like to try this out?, they will get a hammer and try to bash Grahameeboy with it and he will show us how to take them out with "simple moves"

Then we'll give Scumdog a pistol and try the same thing again




I bags not bein' the guy with the hammer...:no:

(Can't run to save meself!)

[I Smell Bacon]

See one of my previous posts.

A guy with a hammer would actually be easy to take out with simple moves.....but I do understand your point,

Its equally as easy for the guy with the hammer to take out your brains and how do you know whether or not he's some kind of super hoo flung dung trained crazy prick himself?

Better to not take the risk, the law allows the cop to use a firearm in that situation so why try and be a super hero and risk your own life. Bravery medals are a nice memento for your family but in most cases I'm sure they'd much rather just have you come home at the end of your shift.

[Grahameeboy]

Do we have anyone here who'd like to try this out?, they will get a hammer and try to bash Grahameeboy with it and he will show us how to take them out with "simple moves"

Then we'll give Scumdog a pistol and try the same thing again

Hah...well if Scumdog has the hammer he will not be in a position to try the gun:shit:

[Grahameeboy]

Its equally as easy for the guy with the hammer to take out your brains and how do you know whether or not he's some kind of super hoo flung dung trained crazy prick himself?

Better to not take the risk, the law allows the cop to use a firearm in that situation so why try and be a super hero and risk your own life. Bravery medals are a nice memento for your family but in most cases I'm sure they'd much rather just have you come home at the end of your shift.

I know what you are saying, just making a point....all I can say is that the hammer guy would take just 1 move to take out and immobiles and if you really wanted to you could dislocate his shoulder with just a nudge and at no risk to cop.

You would know if the hammer head was a mad kung foo guy.....

[Finn]

A guy with a hammer would actually be easy to take out with simple moves.....

You can't get more simple that pulling a trigger. The bullet does all the work from there.

[Grahameeboy]

You can't get more simple that pulling a trigger. The bullet does all the work from there.

Like your employees I guess.........:shutup:

[Finn]

Like your employees I guess.........:shutup:

Sorry, I don't get it.

[Grahameeboy]

Sorry, I don't get it.

Ah well, somethings are just too hard to explain, enjoy your day Finny:sunny:

[Usarka]

You would know if the hammer head was a mad kung foo guy.....

you've been watching too much hong kong fooey. :lol:

some people get taught to appear like a noob when in a confrontation - no point giving away the element of surprise.

[Finn]

Ah well, somethings are just too hard to explain, enjoy your day Finny:sunny:

I will. Counting money is always fun.

[Grahameeboy]

you've been watching too much hong kong fooey. :lol:

some people get taught to appear like a noob when in a confrontation - no point giving away the element of surprise.

Its the feet that do the work

[Grahameeboy]

I will. Counting money is always fun.

I am so glad I do not have your job..............sounds too tough to me

[scumdog]

Far out. Anything up to 12 metres?
You old buggers shouldn't be allowed to carry a firearm if you are going to have to put your zimmer frame down to draw!:rofl:
2-3 metres would be the expected. What distance do you train at nowadays? Still 2-3 metres?

We are happy with the outcome of the shooting. Dickhead is toast/gene pool improved.

The winner is the gubbinment.
1: More reasons to ban party pills.
2: More reason to override the tazer "review period" and issue them to all.

Hmm, action beats reaction.

A person 10 metres or so away who rushes at you will very likely be onto you before you can draw and take proper aim.
And given that it (obviously) might take more than one shot to incapacitate that person then if they had a weapon you could well be injured/dead as a result of the weapon being used on you.

Using a Glock is a two-handed proposition - so if you had pepper-spray in one hand your draw would be even slower.

If you had the pistol in both hands, ready to raise then you would have a good chance of dropping the sucker by the time he takes two steps - and that's the way I operate.

[Usarka]

Its the feet that do the work

yeah true you got me its a well known fact that people proficient in hand to hand combat cannot stand like a normal person to confuse their enemy.

and by the time your average grunt copper notices any fancy footwork they'll have a hammer through their scone.

a-cha-cha-chaa

http://www.johnrozum.com/images/hongkongphooey.jpg

[scumdog]

yeah true you got me its a well known fact that people proficient in hand to hand combat cannot stand like a normal person to confuse their enemy.

and by the time your average grunt copper notices any fancy footwork they'll have a hammer through their scone.

a-cha-cha-chaa



I think the sight of the exposed genitalia in that picture is the biggest threat...

[Grahameeboy]

yeah true you got me its a well known fact that people proficient in hand to hand combat cannot stand like a normal person to confuse their enemy.

and by the time your average grunt copper notices any fancy footwork they'll have a hammer through their scone.

a-cha-cha-chaa



I was talking about the defender's feet.....a-cha-cha-chaa.....fooey....pooey

[Usarka]

I was talking about the defender's feet.....a-cha-cha-chaa.....fooey....pooey

rofl - sorry you've lost me mate. the cops should be able to deal with hammer weilding maniacs by using martial arts or some other form of unarmed combat training. they should be able to identify when someone is an expert fighter. in the event that the assailants skill level is greater than the cop anticipated the cop should run away.

Presumably the cops then wait for backup while the offender continues to smash what and whomever.

:mega:"attention this is the police, put down the hammer or we will run away!"

bahahahahahaha

[caesius]

So why was the tazor not used in this case?

[I Smell Bacon]

So why was the tazor not used in this case?

Jeez mate, because they don't have the f'n things.

[Hitcher]

So why was the tazor not used in this case?

Please try and keep up. Tazers were used as a trial by NZ Police in some Districts and were withdrawn from service after the trial ended. Christchurch Police District was never part of the Tazer trial.

And this "what if" stuff is specious nonsense. If the cop had called in sick the shooting wouldn't have happened either. A crazed idiot weilding a hammer continued to run at an armed Constable despite being warned to stop. He was shot. Fatally. If I had been on the same side of the Glock as the Constable I would probably have done the same thing. Most of you would have. Get over it.

[I Smell Bacon]

I know what you are saying, just making a point....all I can say is that the hammer guy would take just 1 move to take out and immobiles and if you really wanted to you could dislocate his shoulder with just a nudge and at no risk to cop.

You would know if the hammer head was a mad kung foo guy.....

Regardless of how easy or hard it might be with the right training it would be a foolish action on the part of the cop to take on a hammer wielding maniac hand to hand when the cop has other more effective tactical options available.

Too many of the NZ public want the cops to protect them but won't face up to the ugly reality of what that actually involves in cases like this.

[Grahameeboy]

Regardless of how easy or hard it might be with the right training it would be a foolish action on the part of the cop to take on a hammer wielding maniac hand to hand when the cop has other more effective tactical options available.

Too many of the NZ public want the cops to protect them but won't face up to the ugly reality of what that actually involves in cases like this.

I guess I just do not 100% agree............never been a cop so am not in a prime position but with the right training I do not consider that the cop would be at risk.

I mean what would happen if this maniac has managed to get to cop and grab his gun........what defence would the cop have then.............

Just dont agree with shooting someone with a hammer who had just smashed up cars....different story if the attacker had a sword, then I would agree that shooting (not to kill) would be only option

[scumdog]

Regardless of how easy or hard it might be with the right training it would be a foolish action on the part of the cop to take on a hammer wielding maniac hand to hand when the cop has other more effective tactical options available.

Too many of the NZ public want the cops to protect them but won't face up to the ugly reality of what that actually involves in cases like this.

Wot 'e sed.

Too many want Police to 'do this that way' and 'do that' and 'they shoulda done" etc etc ad nauseum ad infinitum.

But they don't actually want to do it themselves, oh no, that's too dangerous/nasty/icky.

[Grahameeboy]

Please try and keep up. Tazers were used as a trial by NZ Police in some Districts and were withdrawn from service after the trial ended. Christchurch Police District was never part of the Tazer trial.

And this "what if" stuff is specious nonsense. If the cop had called in sick the shooting wouldn't have happened either. A crazed idiot weilding a hammer continued to run at an armed Constable despite being warned to stop. He was shot. Fatally. If I had been on the same side of the Glock as the Constable I would probably have done the same thing. Most of you would have. Get over it.

Am I allowed to say that I would not have shot him................:shutup:

[scumdog]

Just dont agree with shooting someone with a hammer who had just smashed up cars....different story if the attacker had a sword, then I would agree that shooting (not to kill) would be only option

In case you missed the point GB:

HE WAS NOT SHOT 'BECAUSE HE HAD JUST SMASHED UP CARS".

[scumdog]

Am I allowed to say that I would not have shot him................:shutup:

And at what point as you lay on dying on the ground with a hammer sticking out of your head and the madman now blazing away with the pistol he has just taken off you would you reconsider???

[Grahameeboy]

In case you missed the point GB:

HE WAS NOT SHOT 'BECAUSE HE HAD JUST SMASHED UP CARS".

Why was he shot then?

[Grahameeboy]

And at what point as you lay on dying on the ground with a hammer sticking out of your head and the madman now blazing away with the pistol he has just taken off you would you reconsider???

Well it has been a few years but I know enough not to get to that stage........but first I would run away.

[scumdog]

Why was he shot then?

Cos as a result of a drug-related non-thinking act he decided to to attack a man holding a pistol who was telling him to drop the hammer.....or so I have been led to believe.

[scumdog]

Well it has been a few years but I know enough not to get to that stage........but first I would run away.
And you KNEW you could out-run him?

Cos if you didn't do so you would (a) likely end up dead/dying) and (b) now provided a pistol to add to the hammer-wielders arsenal..


OR Allowed the guy to take out some bystander with said hammer - how would you feel then??

"I had a gun but ran away and now some person/people are dead/injured".

Being NOT in the Police seems waaay easier than being in it right about now.

[Grahameeboy]

Cos as a result of a drug-related non-thinking act he decided to to attack a man holding a pistol who was telling him to drop the hammer.....or so I have been led to believe.

I know, I know.............just the whole think does not sit right with me and at same time I do see where you are coming from.

[Grahameeboy]

And you KNEW you could out-run him?

Cos if you didn't do so you would (a) likely end up dead/dying) and (b) now provided a pistol to add to the hammer-wielders arsenal..


OR Allowed the guy to take out some bystander with said hammer - how would you feel then??

"I had a gun but ran away and now some person/people are dead/injured".

Being NOT in the Police seems waaay easier than being in it right about now.

I understand...............

[Dilligaf]

Well it has been a few years but I know enough not to get to that stage........but first I would run away.

Super! Just what I want.... our police force to run away and anarchy to reign!!!!!!!


p/t



Too many want Police to 'do this that way' and 'do that' and 'they shoulda done" etc etc ad nauseum ad infinitum.

But they don't actually want to do it themselves, oh no, that's too dangerous/nasty/icky.

Nah, you can shoot as many layabouts and no gooders as you want. :shutup:

[I Smell Bacon]

Why was he shot then?

In self defence.

[Coldrider]

Why was he shot then?
It's like the clip that was on telly TV1 current affairs at 7:30pm, the yank holding the knife outside the whitehouse, shot in front of five cops. The Uni lecturer said legal yes, moral no. (That will start a few more off). Not quite the circumstances but the arguement remains.

[scumdog]

It's like the clip that was on telly TV1 current affairs at 7:30pm, the yank holding the knife outside the whitehouse, shot in front of five cops. The Uni lecturer said legal yes, moral no. (That will start a few more off).

Man, TV1 was really dragging the bottom of the barrel for those clips....still, it keeps the ratings/contoversy going...

[Grahameeboy]

It's like the clip that was on telly TV1 current affairs at 7:30pm, the yank holding the knife outside the whitehouse, shot in front of five cops. The Uni lecturer said legal yes, moral no. (That will start a few more off). Not quite the circumstances but the arguement remains.

Yep you would think that 5 cops could handle a guy with a knife eh?

[scumdog]

Yep you would think that 5 cops could handle a guy with a knife eh?

They did.

One of them shot the guy.

[Grahameeboy]

They did.

One of them shot the guy.

That is a worry.............1 on one different but 1 on 5...........

[Coldrider]

Man, TV1 was really dragging the bottom of the barrel for those clips....still, it keeps the ratings/contoversy going...
But that is reality TV these days, some people chase & film turnadoes for a living, others prefer to film cops in action. Hell all the american murder shit programs that we have to watch, there on three channels at once.

[Usarka]

That is a worry.............1 on one different but 1 on 5...........

the other 4 ran away

[Grahameeboy]

the other 4 ran away

Most amusing..............I now retreat..............:scooter:

[I Smell Bacon]

Yep you would think that 5 cops could handle a guy with a knife eh?

A one in five chance of getting a knife in the guts or fire a bullet and no chance of getting knifed??? What would you choose?

[I Smell Bacon]

That is a worry.............1 on one different but 1 on 5...........

Should they have put away their guns and armed themselves with a knife to make it a fair fight?

My rules of engagement are simple, always win, always go home at the end of my shift.

[Grahameeboy]

A one in five chance of getting a knife in the guts or fire a bullet and no chance of getting knifed??? What would you choose?

Sorry but surely 5 trained cops can deal with 1 man with a knife without injury to themselves.

[Grahameeboy]

Should they have put away their guns and armed themselves with a knife to make it a fair fight?

My rules of engagement are simple, always win, always go home at the end of my shift.

I guess I want everyone to win.....the cops and the offender alive

[Coldrider]

I guess I want everyone to win.....the cops and the offender alive

Yep, Dog the Bounty Hunter would have done that, he even sells himself as doing a favour to the offenders as turning them in, (for cash of course).

[I Smell Bacon]

Sorry but surely 5 trained cops can deal with 1 man with a knife without injury to themselves.

What are the percentages? Why take the risk?

[Grahameeboy]

What are the percentages? Why take the risk?

What risk....you have 5 trained cops with batons against 1 guy with a knife......they could have aimed for his legs if they used their guns.

What real risk was the guy to the cops. Did they really fear for their lives??

With the NZ cop I accept that he feared for his life and whilst I am not in favour of guns, I am not critical of what he did as it was him alone with the hammer guy

[Goblin]

I guess I want everyone to win.....the cops and the offender aliveC'mon Grahameeboy, this is getting pathetic...The guy IS dead! The Cop did the RIGHT thing so get over it!

[Grahameeboy]

C'mon Grahameeboy, this is getting pathetic...The guy IS dead! The Cop did the RIGHT thing so get over it!

Over what? just stating how I see things. If my way of viewing things is considered pathetic I can wear that.

Not criticising the cop as I have said before.

[Goblin]

Yeah and there's 9 pages of you telling us how you see things. We get the picture! You wish that nobody would ever put a foot out of line and that every one will love each other and live happily ever after! Real life doesn't always go how we want so suck it up and handle it ok!

[jrandom]

Sorry but surely 5 trained cops can deal with 1 man with a knife without injury to themselves.

Dude, you are so trolling. Stop it. Bad Graham!

You know the story about knife fighting. The winner is the guy who dies later, at the hospital.

Way I see it, determined individual with a knife, back to the wall, no matter how many guys are there to take him down, somebody's almost certainly going to get cut in the process if they get within contact range.

The guy we're discussing here made an informed choice to die when he picked up a lethal weapon and failed to surrender to an armed cop.

Biggest lesson from this event, I think, is that Tasers are a damn good idea.

[Grahameeboy]

Yeah and there's 9 pages of you telling us how you see things. We get the picture! You wish that nobody would ever put a foot out of line and that every one will love each other and live happily ever after! Real life doesn't always go how we want so suck it up and handle it ok!

Okay.................

[Grahameeboy]

Dude, you are so trolling. Stop it. Bad Graham!

You know the story about knife fighting. The winner is the guy who dies later, at the hospital.

Way I see it, determined individual with a knife, back to the wall, no matter how many guys are there to take him down, somebody's almost certainly going to get cut in the process if they get within contact range.

The guy we're discussing here made an informed choice to die when he picked up a lethal weapon and failed to surrender to an armed cop.

Biggest lesson from this event, I think, is that Tasers are a damn good idea.

Bugger....................have you been going through my rubbish.:nono:

Tis still a shame this kinda thing happens................I know when I put that guy in hospital I felt like stink which is why I gave up.....plus all the Police questioning..............just don't like violence of any kind....

[I Smell Bacon]

What risk....you have 5 trained cops with batons against 1 guy with a knife......they could have aimed for his legs if they used their guns.

What real risk was the guy to the cops. Did they really fear for their lives??

With the NZ cop I accept that he feared for his life and whilst I am not in favour of guns, I am not critical of what he did as it was him alone with the hammer guy

A determined offender will knife at least one of them, nowhere in my job description does it say that I have to take a knife in the interest of fair play.

[Grahameeboy]

A determined offender will knife at least one of them, nowhere in my job description does it say that I have to take a knife in the interest of fair play.

Okay....................

[pritch]

just don't like violence of any kind....

While that is admirable it is completely out of step with the world at large.

There are a lot of violent people out there and if they meet with a violent end of their own choosing it may sadden you, but don't waste too many tears for them.

There are others more worthy of your concern, for instance right now hundreds of Bhudist monks in Burma...

[Mr Merde]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=124&objectid=10466842

12:35PM Sunday September 30, 2007


Two police officers were forced to take evasive action when they were confronted by a man swinging an axe in Napier early today.
One officer managed to get out of the way, so the man turned his attention to the other officer, who got behind a parked car, Senior Sergeant Andy Sloane said.
The man's associates then managed get the axe off him before he ran into a nearby property.
When he approached the two officers again shortly afterwards, he was pepper sprayed and handcuffed.
The man is due to appear in court tomorrow facing two charges of assault with a weapon.
Mr Sloane said the incident happened after police were called to McGrath St about 3.45am by residents concerned about a group of people milling around vehicles in the street.
When the two officers were talking to the group and taking down details, the man ran at them from "out of nowhere" with the axe.
He praised the officers for the way they handled the situation and said the pair had come through the incident "as good as gold".



Ok answer me this.

This man with an axe was over come and disabled whilst a man with a hammer was shot and killed.

Are the levels of training that different over the country?

I know this is a simplistic view but what is the difference between and axe and a hammer in the danger they pose?

Merde

[Usarka]

[Ok answer me this.

This man with an axe was over come and disabled whilst a man with a hammer was shot and killed.

Are the levels of training that different over the country?

it read to me that it was the guys mates that took the axe off him.

The cops were following gbs advice and legging it. would'a been interesting if he'd chopped one of his mates.

[Goblin]

The man's associates then managed get the axe off him before he ran into a nearby property.

MerdeThere's the difference right there!

[scumdog]

Ok answer me this.

This man with an axe was over come and disabled whilst a man with a hammer was shot and killed.

Are the levels of training that different over the country?

I know this is a simplistic view but what is the difference between and axe and a hammer in the danger they pose?

Merde

Different circumstances.

Timing?

i.e. the first officer was face to face with the ofender who may/may not have attacked a bystander but potentially posed a threat to them.

Second guy seemed to be only after the police - who had time/circumstances to distance themselves from him AND he was disarmed by 'associates'

Had the officers been armed Darwins law may have struck again.

[jrandom]

This man with an axe was over come and disabled whilst a man with a hammer was shot and killed.

Disarmed, not overcome and disabled, and by his associates, not by the cops.

Differences:

1. As far as I'm aware, NZ cops don't typically go forth armed unless they're called to an "offender with weapon" type of situation, so responding to the surprise axe attack with Glocks wasn't an option.

2. 'Associates' were present and able to disarm the offender while he was focused on the cops. Presumably at much lesser danger to themselves, since the guy wouldn't have been interested in attacking them.

Imagine if no 'associates' had been there, and either:

(a) one of the cops had been axed; or

(b) the cops had escaped successfully, given their unarmed state and consequent inability to neutralise the offender, and he had gone on to murder a bystander.

What would the unwashed masses be calling for then?


I know this is a simplistic view but what is the difference between and axe and a hammer in the danger they pose?

Same ballpark, I'd say, but that's not really the issue here.

[I Smell Bacon]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=124&objectid=10466842

12:35PM Sunday September 30, 2007

Ok answer me this.

This man with an axe was over come and disabled whilst a man with a hammer was shot and killed.

Are the levels of training that different over the country?

I know this is a simplistic view but what is the difference between and axe and a hammer in the danger they pose?

Merde


The man's associates then managed get the axe off him before he ran into a nearby property.

Stupid question mate, he didn't have an axe when he was apprehended, therefore the risk was reduce considerably.

[HenryDorsetCase]

hopefully he resisted arrest and was vigorously restrained.

Fucked if I would put up with that sort of shit for what, $50k a year?

[peasea]

hopefully he resisted arrest and was vigorously restrained.

Fucked if I would put up with that sort of shit for what, $50k a year?

But you get better work stories, remember.

What was that guy in Napier on? Anyone figured that out yet?

[Coldrider]

But you get better work stories, remember.

What was that guy in Napier on? Anyone figured that out yet?
I think it is called 'dumb'. A natural occuring process of chemicals hard wired to the brain manifested by procreation.

[Hitcher]

Am I allowed to say that I would not have shot him...

Of course. The best twat is a dead twat.

[idleidolidyll]

Friggin Pigs!
The punishment for bad driving is death by cop, the punishment for vandalism is death by cop............looks like the fukkin cops have been paying too much attention to yanks and their murderous cops!

Cops investigated by cops? what bullshit! They are there to serve the people of NZ not themselves and without a completely independent police complaints authority; there will nevcer be any answerability for crimes committed by cops.

[Hitcher]

Friggin Pigs!

Welcome back, III. We have missed your politely cheerful ways. Much like one misses a red-hot rusty poker being thrust up one's bottom.

[Grahameeboy]

Of course. The best twat is a dead twat.

Well I guess it is good to be good at something rather than nothing at all eh?

[idleidolidyll]

i'm not likely to last long; i refuse to suck up to anyone regardless of their perceptions of their own power or importance

i tell it as i see it and bugger the whiners

[Hitcher]

i'm not likely to last long; i refuse to suck up to anyone regardless of their perceptions of their own power or importance

i tell it as i see it and bugger the whiners

I can think of more productive pursuits than buggering whiners or indulging in fellatio with self-important people. But I otherwise largely concur with your sentiments.

[I Smell Bacon]

Friggin Pigs!
The punishment for bad driving is death by cop, the punishment for vandalism is death by cop............looks like the fukkin cops have been paying too much attention to yanks and their murderous cops!

Cops investigated by cops? what bullshit! They are there to serve the people of NZ not themselves and without a completely independent police complaints authority; there will nevcer be any answerability for crimes committed by cops.

Now there's a (un)balanced opinion.

[scumdog]

i'm not likely to last long; i refuse to suck up to anyone regardless of their perceptions of their own power or importance

i tell it as i see it and bugger the whiners

Me too.

Fuck off, wanker.

[idleidolidyll]

a whining copper doesn't like the truth

tuff shit

[Finn]

Friggin Pigs!
The punishment for bad driving is death by cop, the punishment for vandalism is death by cop............looks like the fukkin cops have been paying too much attention to yanks and their murderous cops!

PUT THE HAMMER DOWN!!!

[Skyryder]

Of course. The best twat is a dead twat.




Fuck where you been man? Fucking the ghouls.

I prefer a pulsating one.:bleh:

Skyryder

[Mr Merde]

Fuck where you been man? Fucking the ghouls.

I prefer a pulsating one.:bleh:

Skyryder

Necrophillia is dead boring

[Hitcher]

Necrophillia is dead boring

Incest is relatively boring.

[Mr Merde]

Incest is relatively boring.

A new one for me

[peasea]

a whining copper doesn't like the truth

tuff shit


The police are our friends. We should respect them and all they stand for. They are above reproach, bribery, drug taking and deviant sexual behaviour.

Oh, hang on...........

[peasea]

Me too.

Fuck off, wanker.

Don't mince your words SD, tell him how you REALLY feel.

[peasea]

Incest is relatively boring.

Does that mean beastiality is furballing?

[peasea]

Anyone recall Monty Python's Lumberjack Song? I think I found the correct lyrics.

Oh, I'm a commissioner, and I'm okay,
I sleep all night and I work all day.

CHORUS: He's a commissioner, and he's okay,
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

I shoot down folk, I eat my lunch,
I go to the lava-tree.
On Wednesdays I go shoppin'
And have buttered scones for tea.

Constables: He shoots down folk, he eats his lunch,
He goes to the lava-tree.
On Wednesdays 'e goes shoppin'
And has buttered scones for tea.

CHORUS

I shoot down folk, I skip and jump,
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing,
And hang around in bars.

Constables: He shoots down folk, he skips and jumps,
He likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing
And hangs around.... In bars???????

CHORUS

I shoot down folk, I wear high heels,
Suspenders and a bra.
I wish I'd been a girlie
Just like my dear papa.

Constables: He cuts down trees, he wears high heels
Suspenders?? and a .... a Bra????
(spoken, raggedly) What's this? Wants to be a *girlie*? Oh, My!
And I thought you were so rugged! Poofter!

CHORUS

All: He's a commissioner, and he's okaaaaaaayyy..... (BONG)

[puddy]

Sooooooo....just to recap...........if a Cop points a gun at you and tells you to stop. YOU STOP whatever you are doing! Sounds fair to me. Also, if you can't drive for shit, don't run from the Cops or you'll crash and die, then your parents or any soft-cock bleeding heart liberals that you know (and lots that you don't) will complain about the Cops all because you can't drive and have shit for brains! As you were..........

[I Smell Bacon]

Anyone recall Monty Python's Lumberjack Song? I think I found the correct lyrics.

Oh, I'm a commissioner, and I'm okay,
I sleep all night and I work all day.

CHORUS: He's a commissioner, and he's okay,
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

I shoot down folk, I eat my lunch,
I go to the lava-tree.
On Wednesdays I go shoppin'
And have buttered scones for tea.

Constables: He shoots down folk, he eats his lunch,
He goes to the lava-tree.
On Wednesdays 'e goes shoppin'
And has buttered scones for tea.

CHORUS

I shoot down folk, I skip and jump,
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing,
And hang around in bars.

Constables: He shoots down folk, he skips and jumps,
He likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing
And hangs around.... In bars???????

CHORUS

I shoot down folk, I wear high heels,
Suspenders and a bra.
I wish I'd been a girlie
Just like my dear papa.

Constables: He cuts down trees, he wears high heels
Suspenders?? and a .... a Bra????
(spoken, raggedly) What's this? Wants to be a *girlie*? Oh, My!
And I thought you were so rugged! Poofter!

CHORUS

All: He's a commissioner, and he's okaaaaaaayyy..... (BONG)

ha ha - (courtesy laugh)

You're a comic genius!

[peasea]

ha ha - (courtesy laugh)

You're a comic genius!

What? I've got comical genitals?

[I Smell Bacon]

What? I've got comical genitals?

Small willy syndrome?

That could explain why you have issues.

[devnull]

It's pretty ironic that people moan about offenders being shot & killed here, and compare it to the US.

You know what? This place IS a lot like the US, with the exception that the average bloke doesn't have the same rights as far as defending home and property goes (S.48 isn't that great)

In 2005, the violent crime rate for Washington D.C. was 1459/100000 people.
Auckland was 1180/100000 people. And the best bit? Counties/Manakau was 1621/100000 people.

Surprisingly, in Virginia, where it's legal to carry a concealed handgun, it was 282/100000.

Food for thought, isn't it? If a crim thinks there's a good chance he'll die, he'll think again before committing a crime huh?

[peasea]

Small willy syndrome?

That could explain why you have issues.

I don't have and FARKIN' issues

[riffer]

I don't have and FARKIN' issues

well, other than an inability to type properly.. :laugh:

[idleidolidyll]

Sooooooo....just to recap...........if a Cop points a gun at you and tells you to stop. YOU STOP whatever you are doing! Sounds fair to me. Also, if you can't drive for shit, don't run from the Cops or you'll crash and die, then your parents or any soft-cock bleeding heart liberals that you know (and lots that you don't) will complain about the Cops all because you can't drive and have shit for brains! As you were..........

So you want to live in a fascist police state where they serve themselves and don't care about people. A place where speeding is punishable by death and where vandalism is also a death sentence.
Tell ya what, why don't you fuck off and live your dream in Amerikkka. I for one prefer a place where people are treated with humanity and the police serve the people not politicians and companies.

The cynical whine by police that this is a case for tasers is sickening. It's actually a case for better training for police and the REMOVAL of dangerous weapons from trigger happy nutcases.
Don't tell me there was no other choice; that's bullshit. Back off and let the guy smash up some more property; insurance will cover the damage. In the meantime work on some non lethal strategies. Get some gun fired deer/goat nets etc. Only trigger happy wankers would kill a person without considering other means to bring him under control. Fuck the police, they don't have my respect and given their fascism, they don't deserve it either.

It's time we dumper the Police Complaints Authority and introduced a truly impartial investigation service to stop these police abuses of power.

[Coldrider]

Pommy metroploitan police on trial today, for putting 7 leads into the head of an electrician. Apparently he 'looked' like someone who they had been following as a suspect for the London bombings.
After the first head shot he refused to comply with police orders.
They are charged (the police not individuals) under a H & S law that they 'endangered' the life of the electrician and genreal public! I think they later claimed his head was packed with 'mmunitions.
Electricians must get paid enough to go home in a box etc......
I hope no-one looks like Michael Jackson.

[idleidolidyll]

bollocks!
that's just REPORTED stats.

the fact is the US is the worlds most violent 1st world nation with some 30,000 gun killings every year. A place where cops shoot first and ask questions later. If you think that's what NZ should be, you're my enemy. I hate fascism and that's what you're advocating.

Government and it's dpeartments (including Police) are elected to serev the people. Not to control the people as in Amerika. Big Brother has arrived there and it is creeping in here. I despise and reject it and recognise that it is the creeping fascism of capitalism gone mad.
The middle path is the only honest way; a capitalist economic system with socialist safeguards to prevent abuse from the powerful. That is what has made NZ the envy of so many people around the world. Why change to a system employed by one of the most despised nations on the planet: the USA? That would only invite trouble and abuse.

[riffer]

So you want to live in a fascist police state where they serve themselves and don't care about people. A place where speeding is punishable by death and where vandalism is also a death sentence.

Please provide emperical evidence to prove people have been deliberately executed for speeding or vandalism. Crashes during police chases don't count.


Tell ya what, why don't you fuck off and live your dream in Amerikkka. I for one prefer a place where people are treated with humanity and the police serve the people not politicians and companies.

You may prefer a place like this; surely 99% of all human beings do. There isn't one on this earth currently unfortunately.


The cynical whine by police that this is a case for tasers is sickening. It's actually a case for better training for police and the REMOVAL of dangerous weapons from trigger happy nutcases.
Don't tell me there was no other choice; that's bullshit. Back off and let the guy smash up some more property; insurance will cover the damage. In the meantime work on some non lethal strategies. Get some gun fired deer/goat nets etc. Only trigger happy wankers would kill a person without considering other means to bring him under control. Fuck the police, they don't have my respect and given their fascism, they don't deserve it either.

Rather than whine and complain on here, have you considered making a submission to your MP? However, it seems to me you have a very simplistic view of a complicated situation. You appear to disagree with 90% of the people here. The point remains, only an idiot would continue to act aggressively in the face of a policeman with a gun.

It's time we dumper the Police Complaints Authority and introduced a truly impartial investigation service to stop these police abuses of power.Not only is it time; it's actually been announced.

Your argument that police are abusing power leaves me a little confused. The policeman was acting totally lawfully, and responsibly, and IMO did everything by the book. Are you suggesting that the law is at fault, or that the policeman's personal actions were somehow contrary to his legal instructions?

I feel you may have some valid points here, but TBH its hard to read through the opinion and invective to find them here.


Government and it's dpeartments (including Police) are elected to serev the people. Not to control the people as in Amerika. Big Brother has arrived there and it is creeping in here. I despise and reject it and recognise that it is the creeping fascism of capitalism gone mad.
The middle path is the only honest way; a capitalist economic system with socialist safeguards to prevent abuse from the powerful. That is what has made NZ the envy of so many people around the world. Why change to a system employed by one of the most despised nations on the planet: the USA? That would only invite trouble and abuse.

Crikey, you've got a bee in your bonnet today! It's hard to keep up with all the things about this country that piss you off.

Could you please give an example of a country you believe DOES have it right?

[idleidolidyll]

"Crashes during police chases don't count."

yes they do, that's the whole point. Trying to destroy someones argument by denying it to them is fascile and i'm not interested in your silly games.
If the police are prepared to chase peole to the point of death and beyond, it IS a policing issue and a methodology issue. It's also a legal issue. If I stood to have my bike confiscated I too might decide to do a runner rather than be punished so drastically based on the whimsy of cops. What the fuck else do they expect?

[idleidolidyll]

"You may prefer a place like this; surely 99% of all human beings do. There isn't one on this earth currently unfortunately."

NZ is a whole lot closer to it than the USA is but with fascists like you demanding more punitive powers for police without independent monitoring and reporting; we'll soon be as ugly. The fact that no nation is perfect does not mean we should cease striving toward perfection. That's inane.

Our reputation for honesty, our quality of life etc were not based on our capitalist models. They were based on the intent of the Welfare State and socialist attitudes. If the world were to revert to pure capitalism we may as well just adopt feudalism because that's pretty much the major corporate model being promoted by yanks and their politicians in the (dis)guise of freedom and democracy. Freedom and democracy in the US? THAT'S HILARIOUS! Any serious research will uncover a raft of legal changes that have created corporate law allowing businesses to be superhuman; more rights than people. Graft and corruption are the name of that game.

[Patrick]

Sorry but surely 5 trained cops can deal with 1 man with a knife without injury to themselves.

But our superman suits were at the drycleaners....


[COLOR=DarkOrange] A place where speeding is punishable by death and where vandalism is also a death sentence.


It is real, it is a place in OZ... they call it DARWIN.

[idleidolidyll]

"
Rather than whine and complain on here, have you considered making a submission to your MP? However, it seems to me you have a very simplistic view of a complicated situation. You appear to disagree with 90% of the people here. The point remains, only an idiot would continue to act aggressively in the face of a policeman with a gun."

bite me. This is a forum and the subject was raised. I have as much right to comment as you have. Any actions I have or have not taken outside this forum are irrelevant. The point is being made here and now and if you don't like it, don't read and reply. I won't miss you.

[idleidolidyll]

"Not only is it time; it's actually been announced.
Your argument that police are abusing power leaves me a little confused. The policeman was acting totally lawfully, and responsibly, and IMO did everything by the book. Are you suggesting that the law is at fault, or that the policeman's personal actions were somehow contrary to his legal instructions?
I feel you may have some valid points here, but TBH its hard to read through the opinion and invective to find them here."

acting lawfully perhaps; repsonsibly? Nope! Plus; acting responsibly and humanely can and are completely different ideas. Just because it's legal for cops to kill doesn't mean they should and it doesn't mean we should not seek better ways to solve problems than resorting immediately to slaughter.

I'm sure if one of your loved ones had gone off the rails and been shot by the cops you'd be telling us a different story. But you probably think it could never happen: sheer ignorance.
In the end, another human being was executed for the crime of property damage. That disgusts and angers me. Life is more important than the law and more important than the will of the cops.

[idleidolidyll]

"Crikey, you've got a bee in your bonnet today! It's hard to keep up with all the things about this country that piss you off.

Could you please give an example of a country you believe DOES have it right?" More fatuous and fallacious debate? YAWN!
Why does there have to already exist a perfect model before we strive towrad perfection ourselves? That's ignorant and ridiculous.
However, I CAN point to models for society but you'd probably whine because most as modern socialist states in Northern europe and not what seems to be your pet rock: Fascist Amerika.

As for the text colour: like i give a shit, it's there, i'll use it if and when i wish and self assigned cops like you be damned.

[scumdog]

"Not only is it time; it's actually been announced.
Your argument that police are abusing power leaves me a little confused. The policeman was acting totally lawfully, and responsibly, and IMO did everything by the book. Are you suggesting that the law is at fault, or that the policeman's personal actions were somehow contrary to his legal instructions?
I feel you may have some valid points here, but TBH its hard to read through the opinion and invective to find them here."

acting lawfully perhaps; repsonsibly? Nope! Plus; acting responsibly and humanely can and are completely different ideas. Just because it's legal for cops to kill doesn't mean they should and it doesn't mean we should not seek better ways to solve problems than resorting immediately to slaughter.

I'm sure if one of your loved ones had gone off the rails and been shot by the cops you'd be telling us a different story. But you probably think it could never happen: sheer ignorance.
In the end, another human being was executed for the crime of property damage. That disgusts and angers me. Life is more important than the law and more important than the will of the cops.

After skimming the last your last few posts I reiterate my previous comment to you.

Have a nice day!

[imdying]

If putting a bullet into some hopped up scumbag who wants to stove your head in with a hammer isn't acting responsibly, then good luck to the police force. All the people having a bitch cause the poor policeman didn't want to get the bash and thus capped another waste of space will get their time soon enough.... eventually a nice large percentage of the police will chuck the job, and then the streets will be even more of a free for all than it is now.

This copper deserves a medal, but I'm picking that he's probably just thankful to have survived another day dealing with the shit that you'd scrape off your shoe.

[idleidolidyll]

as if your opinion is worth a bent penny to me; rotflmfao! I'll save that for those i respect

[idleidolidyll]

good boy, you suck down that cop propaganda like a good lemming.

no doubt you'd be whining if it were your child or brother slaughtered for property dmage though..............

[imdying]

no doubt you'd be whining if it were your child or brother slaughtered for property dmage though..............

Pfft, my child, mother, father, brother, son, daughter... they'd all be pieces of shit that serve no purpose in society and we'd be better off without them... if they were running around with hammers like that. Good riddance I say.

If it were my mother, then my father would need a slap upside the head as well for not keeping her in line in the first place.

[idleidolidyll]

cheersa, it's nice of you to show the board exactly the kind of callous ugly people on the side of murderous coppers

[imdying]

cheersa, it's nice of you to show the board exactly the kind of callous ugly people on the side of murderous coppersWhat, I should be all supportive of people who do shit like that, just because they're a blood relation???! WTF? That's all the more reason to pour scorn on them... if they want to drag the family name through the mud by becoming criminals, then scorn is what they shall have!

/edit: Just for clarification, the guy that got shot, no relation :blip:

[idleidolidyll]

do what? break windows and drive fast?

hey, go tell your mamma you're gonna shoot her if she speeds.

fucked if i want to live in your ugly world

[scumdog]

cheersa, it's nice of you to show the board exactly the kind of callous ugly people on the side of murderous coppers

Once again I repeat my first comment.

Oh, and I'd waste anybody in the blink of an eye who I considered was a serious threat to other or myself.

[idleidolidyll]

sure you would; cops aren't hired for their brains or humanity

nowdays they're hired for their anti social bent

[imdying]

do what? break windows and drive fast?

hey, go tell your mamma you're gonna shoot her if she speeds.

fucked if i want to live in your ugly worldI think you'll find the topic is about a man who was going to take on an armed cop with a hammer, presumably with a view to killing him by smashing his head open.... keep up will ya :yawn:

[Finn]

Could you please give an example of a country you believe DOES have it right?

Monte Carlo. Okay, not really a country but it's a great place to live. Crime is basically unheard of.

Hey, weren't you in the military? You got paid to kill people.

[Patrick]

cheersa, it's nice of you to show the board exactly the kind of callous ugly people on the side of murderous coppers

I guess you would have preferred for the cop to die then...


do what? break windows and drive fast?

hey, go tell your mamma you're gonna shoot her if she speeds.

fucked if i want to live in your ugly world

Nowhere in these parts has anyone ever been shot for breaking windows or for speeding, getting real ridiculous here suddenly.....

[imdying]

Nowhere in these parts has anyone ever been shot for breaking windows or for speeding, getting real ridiculous here suddenly.....What do you expect? He's got nothing.

[jrandom]

Monte Carlo. Okay, not really a country but it's a great place to live. Crime is basically unheard of.

Monte Carlo is barely a suburb, and one of the wealthiest in the world. As a valid example, your statement is on a similar level to saying that your living room isn't really a country, but it's a great place to live because crime is basically unheard of there.

I expect far better arguments that that from you, Mr Finn...

[Finn]

Monte Carlo is barely a suburb

The Gaza Strip ain't that big either. Monaco has its own Government (constitutional monarchy), Police, Health and Education systems. It is completely independent from France.

I think it's a great example, even if on the edge of extremes.

[Usarka]

Monte Carlo is barely a suburb, and one of the wealthiest in the world.
I bet they don't let in unskilled immigrants to live.....

[Coldrider]

How 'bout Singapore, poor yank boy got a floggi'n for scratching a car.
How 'bout Bali, at least they deal to the route cause of the problem.

[jrandom]

The Gaza Strip ain't that big either. Monaco has its own Government (constitutional monarchy), Police, Health and Education systems. It is completely independent from France.

I think it's a great example, even if on the edge of extremes.

Neither the Gaza strip nor Monte Carlo (you did say Monte Carlo, not Monaco) exist as identifiably separate and independent sociopolitical and economic countries. They are heavily reliant upon monetary input and social context from their neighbours.

Any analysis of crime or other statistics must be seen in that light. Your using Monte Carlo as an example of a safe place to live is like trying to apply lessons learned in Epsom to fix the social issues in Mangere.

It's underpants gnome logic.

Step 1: collect underpants, step 3: profit.

Or, in your case, step 2: be wealthy, step 3: low crime.

Step 1 in your logic is the hard part which you are not addressing.

[Coldrider]

I think you'll find the topic is about a man who was going to take on an armed cop with a hammer, presumably with a view to killing him by smashing his head open.... keep up will ya :yawn:
Unfortunately that is not a fact, but a presumption put forward to justify.

[imdying]

It's gnome logic.Oooh, subtle, I like it :lol:

[jrandom]

Oooh, subtle, I like it :lol:

Gosh! Of course.

Now we know Finn's secret business plan; he must have figured out Step 2...

[imdying]

Unfortunately that is not a fact, but a presumption put forward to justify.Yeah, I'm making an ass of u and me... but, I don't think it's unreasonable given the situation to assume that he had no other purpose in mind :blip:

Unless there's something else you can do with a hammer and a policeman (ideas on the back of a postcard to the usual address)?

[jrandom]

Unfortunately that is not a fact, but a presumption put forward to justify.

If someone runs at me with a hammer held aloft, making threats, I am going to presume that his intention is to cause me harm, and if I have a gun, I'm gonna shoot him with it.

If you would react differently, you're a very odd individual indeed.

[Coldrider]

good boy, you suck down that cop propaganda like a good lemming.

no doubt you'd be whining if it were your child or brother slaughtered for property dmage though..............
Donuts aren't they.

15 year old schoolgirls are right into BZP and herbal highs, wait till one of those runs amoc in the street.

[jrandom]

15 year old schoolgirls are right into BZP and herbal highs, wait till one of those runs amoc in the street.

Mm hmm, and if she has a lethal weapon, I'll fully support any cop who shoots her.

[imdying]

There's already street gangs full of lower socio economic girls running amoc. Sooner they start popping rounds into them the better... they think they can't be touched because they're female... nice.

[Finn]

Your using Monte Carlo as an example of a safe place to live is like trying to apply lessons learned in Epsom to fix the social issues in Mangere.

But it is safe and there's a good reason for it. I was responding to a question - Name a country that does get it right. Monte Carlo is a municipality of Monaco - a small technicality. I did say it was an extreme example.

Singapore is another good example but I wouldn't want to live there. It feels like you're in Auckland minus the low lifes.

[Coldrider]

Yeah, I'm making an ass of u and me... but, I don't think it's unreasonable given the situation to assume that he had no other purpose in mind :blip:

Unless there's something else you can do with a hammer and a policeman (ideas on the back of a postcard to the usual address)?
You and jrandom are correct, but certain elements are not fact.

[Mr Merde]

My concerns arent with the shooting but more with the attitude of the senior police officers and the government.

We have the Armed Forces and the Police.

The former includes the Army, the Navy and the Airforce.

It does not include the Police force.

Yet more and more the policew are being armed.

The Armed Forces have a combined muster of about 8500 persons and their job is to defend this country's citizens

The police force musters in at about 9500 persons and their job id to keep this country's citizens in control.

If a citizen dares to defend themselves by violent means then the police force pushes for prosecution of that person as hard as they can (using our money to do so).

If a police officer uses force then they defend that person to their utmost capabilities (again using our money).

All this is backed by a government that has lost the trust of its citizens.

It all sounds so hypocritical.

[imdying]

Yet more and more the policew are being armed.I did wonder what one of our unarmed police force was doing their with a gun... what's the deal with carrying firearms these days?

[Coldrider]

Mm hmm, and if she has a lethal weapon, I'll fully support any cop who shoots her.
Yes, correct also, but won't the shit hit the fan this happened, what would the public demand then, this is a deviation from the story I know, but also why answers need to be found on this case.
No one wants to take a step back to the original approach to see if it could be dealt with differently, (maybe the Napier cops). The economical approach is would we want to see a coppa beaten with a hammer. ....repeat......repeat......
That is why we have numerous official inquiries started.

[Coldrider]

I did wonder what one of our unarmed police force was doing their with a gun... what's the deal with carrying firearms these days?
A few policeman have shot themselves with drawing a glock, they are at danger to themselves, anyway hammers are so last year, any self respecting nutcase should have a gas powered nail gun by now.

[Mr Merde]

A few policeman have shot themselves with drawing a glock, they are at danger to themselves, anyway hammers are so last year, any self respecting nutcase should have a gas powered nail gun by now.

With a solar powered compressor on their back.

Oh shit I see another ban comming on.

What would it be classed as

Military Style Construction Tool , MSCT,

just imagine Mitre 10 asking to see your buiders federation Id before selling you such a device.

[jrandom]

A few policeman have shot themselves with drawing a glock, they are at danger to themselves

Amazing how badly trained and/or thick operators can injure themselves with all sorts of tools, isn't it?


anyway hammers are so last year

Tell that to the 1911 fans...

[idleidolidyll]

no, the argument is that the cops are more than willing to kill people rather than seek other methods

[Finn]

no, the argument is that the cops are more than willing to kill people rather than seek other methods

Stop being so one-eyed.

[idleidolidyll]

and if the cop hadn't challenged him with death he might have wrecked a few more cars and been alive to pay for it today.

instead the fuckin cop slaughtered him for the offence of property damage.

[idleidolidyll]

Monte Carlo. Okay, not really a country but it's a great place to live. Crime is basically unheard of.

Hey, weren't you in the military? You got paid to kill people.
no, i was never in the army.

BTW: the question asked was by someone else not me (imdying). I just cut and pasted their silly fallacious argument into my post and answered it. Missed out the quotation mark at the end.

[Coldrider]

no, the argument is that the cops are more than willing to kill people rather than seek other methods
economical

[idleidolidyll]

Mm hmm, and if she has a lethal weapon, I'll fully support any cop who shoots her.

define 'lethal weapon'.

any pair of hands could be a lethal weapon and all the cop has to do is say "they were coming at me" and the Police Complaints Authority will whitewash it for the force.

it STILL boils down to human beings being punished with the death penalty for property offences and minor traffic violations.

[Finn]

Do you think pepper spray would be effective against this?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10467245

[Mr Merde]

...

it STILL boils down to human beings being punished ...for property offences ....

The courts have always been harder on property offences.

The Great Train Robbers got 30 years and be out in 20 years

whilst a murderer can be out in 15 years served of a life sentence

[Finn]

The Great Train Robbers got 30 years and be out in 20 years

So that's where all the good trains in NZ have gone.

[Coldrider]

Have they opened the boot of the subaru yet?

[idleidolidyll]

Do you think pepper spray would be effective against this?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10467245

what's your point finn?

comparing chalk and cheese is a silly game

[idleidolidyll]

The courts have always been harder on property offences.

The Great Train Robbers got 30 years and be out in 20 years

whilst a murderer can be out in 15 years served of a life sentence

yep; because the people with the power to make and/or influence lawmaking have usually been the rich and powerful who care more about property than life

[Finn]

what's your point finn?

Weight. So the police are expected to carry a radio, hand cuffs, baton, pepper spray, tazer and a widow maker, then, within milliseconds decide which politically correct weapon to pull from their arsenal based on an unpredictable assailant.

Sorry, call me a red neck but I say shoot the bastard.

[idleidolidyll]

no, if they merely carried around a brain and some humanity we'd be a lot closer to a reasonable solution

[idleidolidyll]

bring back beat cops, local bobbies; that'd help solve crime at source (and make the bastards walk instead of getting fat handing out speeding tickets for the IRD)

[Finn]

no, if they merely carried around a brain and some humanity we'd be a lot closer to a reasonable solution

Oh the humanity!

[Finn]

bring back beat cops, local bobbies; that'd help solve crime at source (and make the bastards walk instead of getting fat handing out speeding tickets for the IRD)

Maybe, but while your Government focuses its spending on low life's for vote catching, the Police are left high and dry. Given that recent memo in CHCH about "just shoot the bastards" you can really start to feel the discontent within the force.

Did you realise that WINZ give away the equivalent of the annual Police budget in just 4 weeks? There's the problem right there.

[idleidolidyll]

my government?

don't leap to conclusions, i didn't give them my vote

as for police moral; that's no excuse to allow them to kill people for traffic and property offences

[Patrick]

No one wants to take a step back to the original approach to see if it could be dealt with differently, (maybe the Napier cops). The economical approach is would we want to see a coppa beaten with a hammer. ....repeat......repeat......
That is why we have numerous official inquiries started.

The Napier cops was a different scenario. They attended a gathering of people (read: disorderly behaviour...) The axe man appears and they have no weapons... If they had firearms, my bet is they would have shot him too... but in the Napier case, at least his mates were there to take the axe off him, unlike the CHCH daisy pusher...


no, the argument is that the cops are more than willing to kill people rather than seek other methods

TUI.... TUI.... Like it happens every day or something? WTF?????????? Blame the cops for the car chase that ends in a crash, blame the cop for the drug taker who tries to smash the cops head open with a hammer...


no, if they merely carried around a brain and some humanity we'd be a lot closer to a reasonable solution

The solution was reasonable... he wanted to go home to his family in one piece. You clearly don't want this to occur. Can you explain???

Drugged out madman intent on stoving in an innocent cops head verses a cop out doing his job....

[idleidolidyll]

"Did you realise that WINZ give away the equivalent of the annual Police budget in just 4 weeks? There's the problem right there."

that's a fallacious argument: a red herring AND a Cause/Effect fallacy in fact

start another thread if you want to complain about dole bludgers

[pritch]

A few policeman have shot themselves with drawing a glock,

I don't think so Tim. They were probably shot while holstering it :(

That may seem a prevarication but there are enough inaccurate ideas circulating hereabout already. And that's just what's in the news media:whistle:

[Ixion]

Neither the Gaza strip nor Monte Carlo (you did say Monte Carlo, not Monaco) exist as identifiably separate and independent sociopolitical and economic countries. They are heavily reliant upon monetary input and social context from their neighbours.

The distinction between Monaco and Monte Carlo is a pedantic one. Monaco is certainly a sovereign state with a distinct and independant sociopolitcal policy. It may be argued that their economic destiny is controlled by others, but the same criticism would apply to almost all the Pacific nations (including ours).

One might add most of the homonymic gentleman's Northern socialist democracies to the list of places that arguably "have it right".

Apropos of the original question, a point touched on by the excremental gentleman deserves wider voice.

I am old enough to remember when we had an unarmed police force (except in special circumstances). Now, the police are routinely armed. This has occurred without any mandate from the public (or , indeed, from parliament).

Whilst I am as keen as the next man to eliminate parasites, and certainly would have no hesitation in shooting someone who came at me with a hammer, the change to an armed force does engender two negative consequences.

One is that the gun becomes the method of first choice rather than the last. And, by corollary of something Mr Scumdog said, if a cop is to use a gun, he needs both hands for it. Which means that as soon as he considers even the possibility of shooting, means of less lethal force become impractical.

The other is that , by slow degree, the gun becomes a means of the police asserting authority, rather than a means of defence. ("You'll do as I tell you, I've got a gun"). The law at present gives very little special exemption to a police officer in the matter of shooting people. He may not shoot people to make his job easier, or to effect an arrest. Only to protect himself or others. Yet little by little (and I think i see the first signs of it in some of the comments here), the case will alter.

And, if the criminal element come to realise that the first response of the police is likely to be lethal force, is it not logical that they will also arm themselves and "get in first"

If the arming of the police force be justified (as it usually is) on the basis that "nowdays we have more criminals, and they more violent", then the counter of that argument has also been expressed here: that if the police require to be armed because of the greater violence of society, then so too do the public. There is nothing new in this . I remember as a boy that all bank mangers kept (by law) a loaded revolver in their desk drawer.

The logical case for allowing the public to carry firearms if the police do is incontestable IMHO. But it is not the society I would wish for this country. The homonymic gentleman is correct. America is not the pattern we should model ourselves on.

[Finn]

that's a fallacious argument: a red herring AND a Cause/Effect fallacy in fact

What has a blow job and a fish got to do with it? You wanted to know why we don't have cops on the beat and local bobbies anymore. It's because the Government wants to spend its (our) money elsewhere.

[Patrick]

and if the cop hadn't challenged him with death he might have wrecked a few more cars and been alive to pay for it today.

instead the fuckin cop slaughtered him for the offence of property damage.

And if he didn't "challenge him to stop" and just sat there, what then? The guy had already tried to get into occupied cars, what if he whacked them on the skull while the cop sat there?

And, again...... He wasn't shot for property offences. He was shot for trying to stove in the head of the cop. Who gives a toss about a few broken windows?


as for police moral; that's no excuse to allow them to kill people for traffic and property offences

There is the old blame shifting again....

[idleidolidyll]

You wanted to know why we don't have cops on the beat and local bobbies anymore.

No I didn't; I suggested we needed more beat cops and less ticket givers, I never asked why. that was YOUR leap of untellect

[Coldrider]

The Napier cops was a different scenario. They attended a gathering of people (read: disorderly behaviour...) The axe man appears and they have no weapons... If they had firearms, my bet is they would have shot him too... but in the Napier case, at least his mates were there to take the axe off him, unlike the CHCH daisy pusher...
No, good policing in Napier at work, bet the coppas loved giving the hoods a good bash, hell it is not PC for their parents to do it these days, unless they are Samoan with a jandal yielding mother.

[idleidolidyll]

The Napier cops was a different scenario. They attended a gathering of people (read: disorderly behaviour...) The axe man appears and they have no weapons... If they had firearms, my bet is they would have shot him too... but in the Napier case, at least his mates were there to take the axe off him, unlike the CHCH daisy pusher...

so they shoot him because they don't have the patience or intelligence to look for a better solution: fuck em, they don't deserve my respect



TUI.... TUI.... Like it happens every day or something? WTF?????????? Blame the cops for the car chase that ends in a crash, blame the cop for the drug taker who tries to smash the cops head open with a hammer...

still taken in by police propaganda? tsh tsh! I blame the cops for not having the wherewithall, training, humanity, instructions to look for a solution that doesn't end in death.
In the end, I don't believe shooting the guy was the only way; it was an overreaction that lead to the tragic death of a human being and ALL unnecessary death is a tragedy.



The solution was reasonable... he wanted to go home to his family in one piece. You clearly don't want this to occur. Can you explain???

Drugged out madman intent on stoving in an innocent cops head verses a cop out doing his job....

bollocks! If he'd backed off and let the guy wreck a few more cars both would still be alive and all that would be hurt would be an insurance company's bank account.

[Coldrider]

Who gives a toss about a few broken windows?
There is the old blame shifting again....
Why was he interupted in his play then

[idleidolidyll]

And if he didn't "challenge him to stop" and just sat there, what then? The guy had already tried to get into occupied cars, what if he whacked them on the skull while the cop sat there?

And, again...... He wasn't shot for property offences. He was shot for trying to stove in the head of the cop. Who gives a toss about a few broken windows?



There is the old blame shifting again....

I see; challenge him to stop and if he doesn't, it's OK to kill him for damaging cars. Yes, he WAS shot for damaging property. The cop had other choices but decided to kill instead of using them.

The COP could have backed away and sought other means. There was no threat to life or limb other than to the cop AFTER the cop challenged him and offered the death sentence.

[idleidolidyll]

Why was he interupted in his play then

exactly!

let him smash up a few cars until a non lethal solution could be managed

[Coldrider]

I don't think so Tim. They were probably shot while holstering it :(

That may seem a prevarication but there are enough inaccurate ideas circulating hereabout already. And that's just what's in the news media:whistle:

What is the difference on a technicality, did they intend to shoot themselves.

[Patrick]

Now, the police are routinely armed.

No they aren't. Never have "routinely" armed myself, but do have access if needed, as we all do. And this includes working on Auckland as well as may other parts of the North Island

Only to protect himself or others. Yet little by little (and I think i see the first signs of it in some of the comments here), the case will alter.

Unsure where you're at, here... the cop shot to protect himself???

And, if the criminal element come to realise that the first response of the police is likely to be lethal force, is it not logical that they will also arm themselves and "get in first"



Hello... they already are armed, look at DUTHIE, shot at two unarmed cops at West Auckland... BURTON on parole and look what he did, DIXON and the list goes on.... It is the Police who are not armed "routinely" and I for one hope it never gets that way.


"Did you realise that WINZ give away the equivalent of the annual Police budget in just 4 weeks? There's the problem right there."

Finally something I agree with you on. THAT is a waste of taxpayer money in a huge proportion of cases... as well as paying $90,000 each per year to keep the likes of BURTON, DIXON and company fed...

[Ocean1]

No, good policing in Napier at work, bet the coppas loved giving the hoods a good bash, hell it is not PC for their parents to do it these days, unless they are Samoan with a jandal yielding mother.

Believe I see the barest hint of a solution coalescing from all this drivel… Get the Samoan mothers out on the streets. Fuck most of ‘em’d scare me straight.

The fact is the time to administer “human” reactions to violent behaviour is when they’re much younger. By the time these idiots are waving clubs/axes/hammers at cops you continue to treat then as human only at the cost of other humans. Kill them before they get to me or mine thanks. Cheers.

[idleidolidyll]

quoting burton and dixon as an excuse to kill the latest human being is ridiculous. it's as fascile as saying tasers should be introduced for cops because they kill people with guns

[idleidolidyll]

The fact is the time to administer “human” reactions to violent behaviour is when they’re much younger. By the time these idiots are waving clubs/axes/hammers at cops you continue to treat then as human only at the cost of other humans. Kill them before they get to me or mine thanks. Cheers.

yep, that was my point about bringing back beat cops.

local bobbies walking about the neighbourhood would be a far better use of public money than tasers and handguns

[Patrick]

No, good policing in Napier at work,

Nope... good luck at work was all... good luck that they weren't armed.


bollocks! If he'd backed off and let the guy wreck a few more cars both would still be alive and all that would be hurt would be an insurance company's bank account.

Soooooooo..... call the Police, theres a guy smashing up cars with a hammer. You say, why bother calling the cops, coz they should sit there and do absolutely nothing anyhow?

The person who rang the cops... its THEIR fault!!!!!!!!

Or have I got it wrong again?????


I see; challenge him to stop and if he doesn't, it's OK to kill him for damaging cars. Yes, he WAS shot for damaging property. The cop had other choices but decided to kill instead of using them.

The COP could have backed away and sought other means. There was no threat to life or limb other than to the cop AFTER the cop challenged him and offered the death sentence.


After the cop pulled up, to do his job, as is expected by those who rang the Police in the first place, (you know, that bit about protecting life and property) this idiot tries to take him on with a hammer. So now the cop is protecting his own life and still the property of strangers.

This slant is what you don't seem to comprehend... he was not shot for breaking windows (is there an echo from Waitara going on in this guys head?). He was shot for trying to kill a cop. Full stop, end of story.

Why isn't your argument more like... "The Offender could have dropped his hammer?"

[Patrick]

quoting burton and dixon as an excuse to kill the latest human being is ridiculous. it's as fascile as saying tasers should be introduced for cops because they kill people with guns

Claiming I am using DIXON nad BURTON as excuses to kill the latest human being shows how out of touch with reality you really are.... where the hell did that little gem of yours above come from? Not this planet, surely???

[idleidolidyll]

Nope... good luck at work was all... good luck that they weren't armed.



Soooooooo..... call the Police, theres a guy smashing up cars with a hammer. You say, why bother calling the cops, coz they should sit there and do absolutely nothing anyhow?

The person who rang the cops... its THEIR fault!!!!!!!!

Or have I got it wrong again?????

Oh sure, ring the cops and have them bring a gun, my cars being attacked and I want the perp killed! fukkin yank philosophy.

If the cop can't handle the situation without resorting to a death penalty he should have waited for cops with brains to come and help him sort it out.



After the cop pulled up, to do his job, as is expected by those who rang the Police in the first place, (you know, that bit about protecting life and property) this idiot tries to take him on with a hammer. So now the cop is protecting his own life and still the property of strangers.

Sorry, I don't automatically buy into police propaganda the way you do. I believe there would have been other non lethal choices if the cops trained their grunts properly. The cop was NOT protecting his own life the ONLY way he could; he COULD have backed off for a while.

This slant is what you don't seem to comprehend... he was not shot for breaking windows (is there an echo from Waitara going on in this guys head?). He was shot for trying to kill a cop. Full stop, end of story.

Yes he was. The cop refused to consider non lethal alternatives and therefore the guy WAS killed for damaging property. That's the police message: "We don't value human life highly and we'll kill you or force you to kill yourself if you speed or break things"

It's time for this yank menatlity to stop.

Why isn't your argument more like... "The Offender could have dropped his hammer?"

I see, "drop your hammer or we'll kill you" is fine and dandy with you. tell that to me after someone you love has been slaughtered by police unwilling to seek non lethal alternatives

[Finn]

I see, "drop your hammer or we'll kill you" is fine and dandy with you. tell that to me after someone you love has been slaughtered by police unwilling to seek non lethal alternatives

I was beginning to wonder about this. Did you know this guy Idle?

[Coldrider]

Nope... good luck at work was all... good luck that they weren't armed.


Nah , you can't knock me for praising good policing. Bet they didn't get on TV1 news.(didn't see 6pm news), wouldn't have aided the Govt broadcast machine.

[idleidolidyll]

no, i'd even argue the same if partick was killed by a cop: I value human life and in my opinion it is always better to have broken toys than dead people

[idleidolidyll]

I was beginning to wonder about this. Did you know this guy Idle?

it's called empathy Finn; a few people here have it and the rest are ignorant rednecks

[jrandom]

I value human life and in my opinion it is always better to have broken toys than dead people

The guy who got shot was moving toward the cop, holding a hammer, apparently expressing a clear intention of attacking the cop with it.

How about telling us what the fuck you think the cop should have done?

[idleidolidyll]

go back 5 hours and read my posts; i don't care to repeat myself for the lazy

[Finn]

it's called empathy Finn; a few people here have it and the rest are ignorant rednecks

Yeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaa boooooyyyyyy!!!

[Coldrider]

It is the Police who are not armed "routinely" and I for one hope it never gets that way..
That's a myth, you and I know it, and hopefully most don't know it.

[Scouse]

Soooooooo..... call the Police, theres a guy smashing up cars with a hammer. You say, why bother calling the cops, coz they should sit there and do absolutely nothing anyhow?Ok Patrick this is not me having a go at you just me playing devils advocate
Sooooo why is it at any thing to do with maori protest like "Motua gardens" or that recent protest up north where maori radicals were blocking a public road the cops seem to "sit there and do absolutely nothing"? I personaly would like to see them go in guns blazing in these circumstances.

[I Smell Bacon]

This slant is what you don't seem to comprehend... he was not shot for breaking windows (is there an echo from Waitara going on in this guys head?). He was shot for trying to kill a cop. Full stop, end of story.

He's just a bent individual who doesn't want to comprehend, you're wasting precious cyber space by answering this morons posts.

[Patrick]

I see, "drop your hammer or we'll kill you" is fine and dandy with you. tell that to me after someone you love has been slaughtered by police unwilling to seek non lethal alternatives

Soooo.... you're saying the cop got out of the car, weapon drawn, racked and one up the spout, and ready to shoot? You seem to know more about the story than some?


no, i'd even argue the same if partick was killed by a cop: I value human life and in my opinion it is always better to have broken toys than dead people

No worries there... I wouldn't have a go at a cop, let alone if he was armed....

I too value human life, but I value my own life a hell of a lot more than some sack trying to stove my head in with a hammer.


The guy who got shot was moving toward the cop, holding a hammer, apparently expressing a clear intention of attacking the cop with it.

How about telling us what the fuck you think the cop should have done?

You get it, he doesn't... or is it just me????

[idleidolidyll]

Soooo.... you're saying the cop got out of the car, weapon drawn, racked and one up the spout, and ready to shoot? You seem to know more about the story than some?



Nope but YOU have been quoting the police propaganda as if THAT were gospel regardless of what a number of witnesses say in contrast.

I'M saying the cop had choices but he chose lethal force before giving non lethal options a chance

[jrandom]

go back 5 hours and read my posts; i don't care to repeat myself for the lazy

I've read your posts; I'm not lazy. You haven't actually suggested any way the cop could have safely disarmed the drugged-up hammer-wielding nutjob without a firearm or Taser.

What's he supposed to do, use Jedi mind control tricks?

In the end, the guy with the hammer needed to be neutralised.

We're going round in circles here. You're reacting emotionally to the fact that someone did something stupid and got killed; others are pointing out that there wasn't any reasonable alternative available at the time.

Are you just trolling for shits and giggles, or are you really as incapable of rational and emotionally-detached thought as your comments in this thread would indicate?

[jrandom]

he chose lethal force before giving non lethal options a chance

What non lethal options?

Please. Enlighten us. Be specific, or shut the fuck up.

[idleidolidyll]

No worries there... I wouldn't have a go at a cop, let alone if he was armed....

neither would i but does that mean it's ok to kill someone else because they were too stoned to think clearly?

I too value human life, but I value my own life a hell of a lot more than some sack trying to stove my head in with a hammer.

still swallowing i see


You get it, he doesn't... or is it just me????

fellow rednecks are often in agreement

[idleidolidyll]

go back and read the posts; i'm not willing to repeat myself for lazy people

[idleidolidyll]

I've read your posts; I'm not lazy. You haven't actually suggested any way the cop could have safely disarmed the drugged-up hammer-wielding nutjob without a firearm or Taser.



yes i have and obviously you have NOT read all my posts

[jrandom]

fellow rednecks are often in agreement

And here you descend into inanity.

Do you realise you've lost the argument?

I bet it burns. ;)

[avgas]

i personally think that some guy walking down the street smashing peoples cars up with a hammer being killed isnt a major loss to society.
Plenty of other ways to vent it on his property.

[idleidolidyll]

We're going round in circles here. You're reacting emotionally to the fact that someone did something stupid and got killed; others are pointing out that there wasn't any reasonable alternative available at the time.

Yes, I do get emotional when life is taken so cheaply. However, I'm also applying human compassion and logic rather than sucking down the official police line as you seem to be doing

Are you just trolling for shits and giggles, or are you really as incapable of rational and emotionally-detached thought as your comments in this thread would indicate?

you think it's rational to kill people for speeding and property damage?
fucked if i want your world view

[Finn]

yes i have and obviously you have NOT read all my posts

Mate, you need to calm down. You have so much anger towards the police, I wouldn't want you to get shot next time you get pulled over.

There, I have got some of that empathy stuff.

[pritch]

What is the difference on a technicality, did they intend to shoot themselves.


If you stop worrying about "technicalities" the discourse could very soon degenerate into a lot of wildly inaccurate nonsense. :argue:

Ummm wait a minute... :whistle:

[jrandom]

you think it's rational to kill people for speeding and property damage?
fucked if i want your world view


Mm, you appear impervious to statements made addressing your position, so all I'll do here is point out that your posted "solution" of letting the guy run amok until someone could find... what, a tranquiliser dart? A giant net to throw over him? A duvet to smother him in? would work real well, right up until drugged-up-dude killed a random innocent passerby.

[idleidolidyll]

And here you descend into inanity.

Do you realise you've lost the argument?

I bet it burns. ;)

nope, i haven't lost the argument at all and the swathes of positive ratings attest to that along with the encouraging pm's

i do concede that i will never turn a redneck into a caring human being though

[idleidolidyll]

Mate, you need to calm down. You have so much anger towards the police, I wouldn't want you to get shot next time you get pulled over.

There, I have got some of that empathy stuff.

it's just the internet Finn but yes, the cops don't deserve my respect (i'm not really angry; more like disgusted)

[idleidolidyll]

He's just a bent individual who doesn't want to comprehend, you're wasting precious cyber space by answering this morons posts.

actually I DO want to comprehend.

I want to comprehend why cops think life is so cheap that killing people for property damage is OK

[Patrick]

That's a myth, you and I know it, and hopefully most don't know it.

There are a few, not many... certainly not a routinely armed masses as suggested... Gotta have some sort of instant armed response for an armed robbery, Aramoana, whatever...


Ok Patrick this is not me having a go at you just me playing devils advocate
Sooooo why is it at any thing to do with maori protest like "Motua gardens" or that recent protest up north where maori radicals were blocking a public road the cops seem to "sit there and do absolutely nothing"? I personaly would like to see them go in guns blazing in these circumstances.

Stirrer!! Protesting is a right, a freedom of speech type thing. As for the road thing up north, saw a protester smack a worker in the head, on film, clearly an assault... but nothing happened??


Nope but YOU have been quoting the police propaganda as if THAT were gospel regardless of what a number of witnesses say in contrast.

I'M saying the cop had choices but he chose lethal force before giving non lethal options a chance


You spout what you want to believe.

"A number of witnesses in contrast" as you put it also say something completely different to those without any possible agenda. It is called independance. The tattoed ex con didn't carry much credibility here....

You seriously think the cop didn't try to talk to the dude? The reaction then from the hammerman was out of the cops hands. He upped the ante by raising the hammer and rushing at him, letting him know what his clear intentions were.

Back off? Where to? Run off? Nah, if he is faster, cop is dead... but that is what you prefer, by the sounds of things...

[jrandom]

nope, i haven't lost the argument at all and the swathes of positive ratings attest to that along with the encouraging pm's

Still far too many NWA fans out there, obviously.

Mmm, we should have a giant jelly-wrestling competition between the peaceniks and the rednecks.

Patrick and I can bring Glocks...

[I Smell Bacon]

cops think life is so cheap that killing people for property damage is OK

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in so much as I think you are just trying to push peoples buttons with these comments. However if that's really what you believe then you are completely on the wrong side of having a sound mind.

[idleidolidyll]

Mm, you appear impervious to statements made addressing your position, so all I'll do here is point out that your posted "solution" of letting the guy run amok until someone could find... what, a tranquiliser dart? A giant net to throw over him? A duvet to smother him in? would work real well, right up until drugged-up-dude killed a random innocent passerby.

oh please! save your delusional ravings for someone who gives a damn

where was the threat to others until the cop forced the issue?

it was about property damage and the COP escalated it to a dead human being.

ever heard of negotiation? ever heard of patience? did you listen to witness accounts? did you see the footage?

i am almost hoping someone you love is killed by cop impatience and ignorance

[KATWYN]

I get so tired of reading about our police coming under fire for
every action they take.

Everyone needs to lay off them and let them get their jobs done - which is to protect US! YOU and ME

There is going to come a time when the police just won't take action at a time its needed for fear of the complaining public.

It may even be one of the complainers friends, relatives or even themselves that goes "under the hammer" and no one will do a thing about it for fear of coming under investigation

[jrandom]

it was about property damage and the COP escalated it to a dead human being.

The guy had a weapon. He was using it to cause property damage. The cop asked him, probably quite nicely at first, to stop doing so. He then attacked the cop with the weapon, and the cop defended himself with his own weapon.

Life's a bitch sometimes, isn't it?

[idleidolidyll]

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in so much as I think you are just trying to push peoples buttons with these comments. However if that's really what you believe then you are completely on the wrong side of having a sound mind.

that's the message they're sending to New Zealand

[jrandom]

that's the message they're sending to New Zealand

Well, maybe to the segment of it that's smoked too much dope and fallen off motorcycles onto their heads a few too many times...

[idleidolidyll]

Still far too many NWA fans out there, obviously.

Mmm, we should have a giant jelly-wrestling competition between the peaceniks and the rednecks.

Patrick and I can bring Glocks...

peacenik?

hilarious! valuing human life gets one branded as a peacenik now.

i suppose it's better than being called cuntstable

[idleidolidyll]

Be honest; declare your interests. Who arguing here are cops?

Here's my interests: I don't hate the cops but I have seen no reason to offer them my respect. Pursuit of arbitrary laws that create little to no harm but gather great revenue pisses me off and loses all my respect particularly when I see dangerous drivers getting off scot free every bloody day in Auckland as the cops sit on the motorway catching speeders etc.

Likewise; ALL death is deplorable and i demand as a citizen, a voter and a taxpayer that the police be accountable to the will of the people and not the will of the police.

[idleidolidyll]

Well, maybe to the segment of it that's smoked too much dope and fallen off motorcycles onto their heads a few too many times...

speak for yourself

btw; don't you know that that kind of fatuous nonsense only means you've run out of logic and lost the argument...........................to spit your own bullshit back at ya

[Patrick]

actually I DO want to comprehend.

I want to comprehend why cops think life is so cheap that killing people for property damage is OK

Comprehend goes with reading and listening...

H e w a s n ' t s h o t f o r b r e a k i n g s t u f f ... ... .... H e w a s s h o t f o r t r y i n g t o k i l l a c o p.

Slow enough for ya? The cops life is more important to me. Yes, I have heard the witnesses accounts. Cop shot someone because he had his hands at his sides? Cop shot someone because he had a go at him with the hammer?

Geez, rocket science is so tricky...



nope, i haven't lost the argument at all and the swathes of positive ratings ...

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


where was the threat to others until the cop forced the issue?

Getting into occupied cars with his hammer and trying to get into others makes it sound threatening, certainly something Police should and always would get involved in...


it was about property damage and the COP escalated it to a dead human being.

DUH.......... AS ABOVE............

ever heard of negotiation? ever heard of patience? did you listen to witness accounts? did you see the footage?

He tried that, again, see earlier posts....

i am almost hoping someone you love is killed by cop impatience and ignorance

No worries, mine aren't that stupid....

[KATWYN]

loses all my respect particularly when I see dangerous drivers getting off scot free every bloody day in Auckland as the cops sit on the motorway catching speeders etc.



Speeders aren't dangerous drivers??

[jrandom]

btw; don't you know that that kind of fatuous nonsense only means you've run out of logic and lost the argument...........................to spit your own bullshit back at ya

Well, I have decided to argue no further, so, yes, fair enough. I don't think either of us are planning on changing our original position...

[idleidolidyll]

Speeders aren't dangerous drivers??

not inherently, no. if they were, F1 would be much more dangerous than it is and so would motorbike racing.

speed doesn't kill, bad driving kills

speed limits are arbitrary numbers much of the time and are aimed at the worst drivers in the worst cars (or bikes)

[idleidolidyll]

Well, I have decided to argue no further, so, yes, fair enough. I don't think either of us are planning on changing our original position...

yep, that's what i said earlier

i don't expect to change anyones mind but i do think it is right to offer the alternate opinion of the events and the outcome

[idleidolidyll]

H e w a s n ' t s h o t f o r b r e a k i n g s t u f f ... ... ....


Y E S H E W A S, I S T I L L R E F U S E T O S W A L L O W P O L I C E P R O P A G A N D A A S R E A D I L Y A S Y O U.

[98tls]

i am almost hoping someone you love is killed by cop impatience and ignorance i am almost hoping next time your out on your bike you ride off a cliff,grow up or fuck off.Dont bother replying as you are on my ignore list for good,prat

[peasea]

not inherently, no. if they were, F1 would be much more dangerous than it is and so would motorbike racing.

speed doesn't kill, bad driving kills

speed limits are arbitrary numbers much of the time and are aimed at the worst drivers in the worst cars (or bikes)

Bravo. Must agree. Don't forget the fact that they are set low so as to ensnare those who buy machines that cruise at comfortable/fuel efficient speeds above 100kph. (And those vehicles arrive by the shipload on an almost daily basis, I can see 'em floating in from my place of work.)

[idleidolidyll]

i am almost hoping next time your out on your bike you ride off a cliff,grow up or fuck off.

sorry, you're out of luck

winding up ignorant rednecks is my mission in life

[peasea]

i am almost hoping next time your out on your bike you ride off a cliff,grow up or fuck off.Dont bother replying as you are on my ignore list for good,prat

No, no, keep going, this is an excellent spectator sport, much better than rugby world cup shite. Where's TV3 when the real entertainment is in town?

BRING IT ON!

[idleidolidyll]

No, no, keep going, this is an excellent spectator sport, much better than rugby world cup shite. Where's TV3 when the real entertainment is in town?

BRING IT ON!

it's not just a good spectator sport it's totally fun to participate too

anyone looking back at my history here would know i don't give a rats arse who i upset.

opinions are like arseholes after all

[peasea]

it's not just a good spectator sport it's totally fun to participate too

anyone looking back at my history here would know i don't give a rats arse who i upset.

opinions are like arseholes after all


So everyone has a brown opinion? Or was that a sly reference to rusty bullet holes?

[Finn]

So everyone has a brown opinion? Or was that a sly reference to rusty bullet holes?

No, I think that Idle was trying to say his opinion is full of shit.