NZ Police public image

[Midnight 82]

SO DONT CHASE THEN , THE CHOICE IS YOURS. OH BUT THE LAWS THE LAW SO FUCK THE KIDS AY, IF THE LAW SAYS YOU CAN CHASE ME PAST A SCHOOL IT MUST BE OK.I DONT KNOW HOW YOU BITCHES JUSTIFY YOUR WAGES OR LIFE

:brick: WINJA your walking a fine line here dude I think you need to look at what your saying youll have the whole force looking for you soon. You go passed a school like that what about the kids that will get killed. For fuck sakes think about it. Spudy dont answer him is it really worth the headach :angry2: Come on guys this is getting out of hand!!!!!! :ar15:

[scumdog]

WHAT EVER PIG, THATS WHY I DONT STOP ANYMORE, I THINK YOULL FIND THE MORE THE LAW TIGHTENS UP THE MORE PEOPLE WILL JOIN ME, SOON I WONT HAVE A REG WARRANT NUMBER PLATE OR LICENCE, AND IM GOING TO DO RUNNERS PAST YOUR LOCAL SCHOOLS AT 3 PM SEE WHOS LAUGHING THEN PIG

Ya better have a good set of sneakers 'cos it's a long way from where you "live" to where the schools are in my area. (you DO know how to tie laces don't you?) :spudwave:

My Laugh :yeah:

[Jantar]

SO DONT CHASE THEN , THE CHOICE IS YOURS. OH BUT THE LAWS THE LAW SO FUCK THE KIDS AY, IF THE LAW SAYS YOU CAN CHASE ME PAST A SCHOOL IT MUST BE OK.I DONT KNOW HOW YOU BITCHES JUSTIFY YOUR WAGES OR LIFE

Anyone who would put kids at risk just to avaoid being issued with a traffic ticket does not deserve any respect at all. :tugger:

[gav]

http://home.comcast.net/~dan0421/edna_lg.gif
http://www.2wg.com/icons/deadhorse.gif

[rooster]

Honda it appears from your comments that you really don't understand what the Job (policing) is all about???? Most of us didn't sign up for Traffic Policing, but hell thats now part of the job, so we do it, believe me when dealing with traffic offences the Drivers/Riders attitude plays a major part.
I have been in this job for over twenty years and met some bloody interesting people, a large number I still know today.
REMEMBER it could be your ass were trying to save.
One thing I have learnt about with this job, nine times out of ten the ones that couse problems for everyone else SCREAM the loudest when something happens to them.
We don't make the law's they Govt's that we all VOTE in Do.

Sorry guy's I get pissed off with the cop bashing (media). :done: :done: :done:

[Clockwork]

Honda....... go boil ya head! :Pokey:

The next time I attempt to engage in an intelligent dicourse with another member of these boards and the only contribution you can make is to complain that one or the other of us is "whinging"....please don't bother! :nono:

OK..... so now I'm wound up! :angry2:


It would seem that this post of mine has earned me a bad rep. As a junior member I am not privy to its origins so I was wondering if the issuer was big enough to own up to it? Lets discuss this like adults.

Don't worry, I'm too grown up to retaliate in kind. :bleh:

[marty]

SO DONT CHASE THEN , THE CHOICE IS YOURS. OH BUT THE LAWS THE LAW SO FUCK THE KIDS AY, IF THE LAW SAYS YOU CAN CHASE ME PAST A SCHOOL IT MUST BE OK.I DONT KNOW HOW YOU BITCHES JUSTIFY YOUR WAGES OR LIFE

can i dance and sing 'good fucking job' at your court case/funeral/lynching??? please.

[spudchucka]

OK..... so now I'm wound up! :angry2:


It would seem that this post of mine has earned me a bad rep. As a junior member I am not privy to its origins so I was wondering if the issuer was big enough to own up to it? Lets discuss this like adults.

Don't worry, I'm too grown up to retaliate in kind. :bleh:
Honda had a fit and was dishing it out to pretty much anybody, I've flicked some green rep your way.

[rooster]

It's crap like that, that keeps us in employment

[Clockwork]

Honda had a fit and was dishing it out to pretty much anybody, I've flicked some green rep your way.

Thanks Spud. :niceone: For what its worth I don't think it was Honda. One, I got the idea that he couldn't at the moment. Two, he'd already had his say (fair enuff) and three, the comment just didn't seem his style.

[StoneChucker]

Honda had a fit and was dishing it out to pretty much anybody
I don't know why, but I found that very funny :lol:

[WINJA]

Anyone who would put kids at risk just to avaoid being issued with a traffic ticket does not deserve any respect at all. :tugger:
IM A CRIMINAL SO WE ALL KNOW THAT THE PIGS ARE MEANT TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC EVEN IF IT MEANS ABANDONING A CHASE ,IF THEY KEEP CHASING ME INTO A DANGEROUS SITUATION THEY MUST TAKE A PORTION OF THE BLAME , THEY HAVE THE POWER TO STOP CHASING WHICH WILL STOP ME CONTINUEING THE RUNNER.
E.G. PIGS TOLD TO STOP CHASING THAT GUY NEAR WHANGAREI THEY KEPT CHASING TILL SOMEONE DIED THERFORE THE PIG IS AS GUILTY AS THE RIDER, THE PIG HAD THE CHOICE TO STOP A DEATH INSTEAD HE CHOSE POORLY. FUCK YOU , BET YOU CANT EVEN RIDE PROPERLY

[Blakamin]

IM A CRIMINAL SO WE ALL KNOW THAT THE PIGS ARE MEANT TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC EVEN IF IT MEANS ABANDONING A CHASE ,IF THEY KEEP CHASING ME INTO A DANGEROUS SITUATION THEY MUST TAKE A PORTION OF THE BLAME , THEY HAVE THE POWER TO STOP CHASING WHICH WILL STOP ME CONTINUEING THE RUNNER.
E.G. PIGS TOLD TO STOP CHASING THAT GUY NEAR WHANGAREI THEY KEPT CHASING TILL SOMEONE DIED THERFORE THE PIG IS AS GUILTY AS THE RIDER, THE PIG HAD THE CHOICE TO STOP A DEATH INSTEAD HE CHOSE POORLY. FUCK YOU , BET YOU CANT EVEN RIDE PROPERLY
even a sleep didn't help you did it, winja???



can we give the "slaggin cops" thing a break... leave it to the media... it's pissing us off here....

[scumdog]

IM A CRIMINAL SO WE ALL KNOW THAT THE PIGS ARE MEANT TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC EVEN IF IT MEANS ABANDONING A CHASE ,IF THEY KEEP CHASING ME INTO A DANGEROUS SITUATION THEY MUST TAKE A PORTION OF THE BLAME , THEY HAVE THE POWER TO STOP CHASING WHICH WILL STOP ME CONTINUEING THE RUNNER.
E.G. PIGS TOLD TO STOP CHASING THAT GUY NEAR WHANGAREI THEY KEPT CHASING TILL SOMEONE DIED THERFORE THE PIG IS AS GUILTY AS THE RIDER, THE PIG HAD THE CHOICE TO STOP A DEATH INSTEAD HE CHOSE POORLY. FUCK YOU , BET YOU CANT EVEN RIDE PROPERLY

Nooo! you are not a criminal! - but then you are also not real!!! :tugger:

[Midnight 82]

even a sleep didn't help you did it, winja???



can we give the "slaggin cops" thing a break... leave it to the media... it's pissing us off here....

:angry2: Im with you Blakamin time to give the police a break. Some off the comments on here are just to far out there. There are alot of young ones that see your foul mouth winja :shake: :shake: :shake:

[Jantar]

IM A CRIMINAL SO WE ALL KNOW THAT THE PIGS ARE MEANT TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC EVEN IF IT MEANS ABANDONING A CHASE ,IF THEY KEEP CHASING ME INTO A DANGEROUS SITUATION THEY MUST TAKE A PORTION OF THE BLAME , THEY HAVE THE POWER TO STOP CHASING WHICH WILL STOP ME CONTINUEING THE RUNNER.
...... FUCK YOU , BET YOU CANT EVEN RIDE PROPERLY

Yes, I made in similar observation in the long running thread on doing a runner some time ago. The police do not have to chase, but then again we don't always have to do a runner either.

I have run on occassion, but only when I know the cop who's doing the chasing, I know the roads that I'm running on, and I know the only person at risk is myself. If the rider deliberately puts himself in a situation where he is endangering other people, then it is not the cops fault when an accident occurs, it is the rider's fault.

As for the "FUCK YOU , BET YOU CANT EVEN RIDE PROPERLY" comment, I don't have to prove my riding ability to anyone. I have enough NZACU certifcates to do that for me. but anyway, :whocares:

[denill]

This thread/dialogue has REALLY lost it's way.................

While it is acceptable that one may criticise or question - in this case, the police, and while it is morbidly interesting to read, the personal and derogatory attacks do not have any place here.

BTW: You are all being sucked in by WINJA. As an astute student of human behaviour I determine that; he doesn't/can't ride a bike, is unemployed and unemployable, lives with his mum, is schizophrenic and between his dizzy spells and medication - toggles between kiddie porn and winding up KBrs.

Cheers
Bill

[marty]

i had blocked him, cause i couldn't be f%$ked reading his uneducated drivel, however i read his post about doing the runner into a school zone, which has now just pissed me off, and i will now be dancing on his grave when i hear that he killed himself (hopefully slowly by slashing his wrists), and i just hope he doesn't take anyone else down with him. if he thinks that doing a runner is going to spread the blame across a number of participants, he's got another thing coming.

[WINJA]

This thread/dialogue has REALLY lost it's way.................

While it is acceptable that one may criticise or question - in this case, the police, and while it is morbidly interesting to read, the personal and derogatory attacks do not have any place here.

BTW: You are all being sucked in by WINJA. As an astute student of human behaviour I determine that; he doesn't/can't ride a bike, is unemployed and unemployable, lives with his mum, is schizophrenic and between his dizzy spells and medication - toggles between kiddie porn and winding up KBrs.

Cheers
Bill
YOUR QUITE FAR OFF THE MARK , YOU DONT UNDERSTAND MUCH ABOUT YOUR SUBJECT OF HUMAN BEVAIOUR DO YOU. I HOPE MCDONALDS DONT FIRE YOU CAUSE YOU WONT GET ANOTHER JOB, YOU SOUND LIKE SOMEONE I KNOW , 3 DIFFERENT QUALIFICATIONS AND NO FUTURE :yeah:

[Lou Girardin]

I guess it's obvious that I don't have a lot of respect for what our Police force has turned into, but incidents such as happened yesterday won't improve that.
I was travelling towards the motorway on Onewa Rd and saw one of the Motorway support utes was about to turn left from the off-ramp into Onewa. This cretin looks straight at me and pulls out! So I tootle him vigourously and, thinking he'll stop for a nap soon, follow him onto the motorway. He doesn't stop so I pulled alongside and gave another tootle to attract his attention, like a naughty schoolboy he didn't look to see what all the noise was for, just stared straight ahead.
Now, I've heard that Police drivers will be graded gold, silver, bronze etc. But this guy is a dead cert for lead.

[spudchucka]

I guess it's obvious that I don't have a lot of respect for what our Police force has turned into, but incidents such as happened yesterday won't improve that.
I was travelling towards the motorway on Onewa Rd and saw one of the Motorway support utes was about to turn left from the off-ramp into Onewa. This cretin looks straight at me and pulls out! So I tootle him vigourously and, thinking he'll stop for a nap soon, follow him onto the motorway. He doesn't stop so I pulled alongside and gave another tootle to attract his attention, like a naughty schoolboy he didn't look to see what all the noise was for, just stared straight ahead.
Now, I've heard that Police drivers will be graded gold, silver, bronze etc. But this guy is a dead cert for lead.
Motorway support staff are non-sworn, usually mechanics or otherwise some sort of handyman. The guy was NOT a cop, just a human who on this occasion had very poor judgement. Make a complaint about it.

[marty]

i guess lou would know all about being a non-sworn handyman type of motorway patrol guy

[NC]

I wanna pepper spray Mikey and WINJA, on the eye on their cocks...

[marty]

i dunno - mikey's kinda funny in an idiotic sort of way. i have some mates with pepper spray though if you ask nicely...... :)

[spudchucka]

I wanna pepper spray Mikey and WINJA, on the eye on their cocks...
I know someone that had a dose sprayed into his bike shorts and had to sit in a very cold bath when he got home. :shake:

[Lou Girardin]

I know someone that had a dose sprayed into his bike shorts and had to sit in a very cold bath when he got home. :shake:

I bet it was a lot bigger until the bath took effect. Have you tried it again Spud?

[spudchucka]

I bet it was a lot bigger until the bath took effect. Have you tried it again Spud?
The old red hot love sausage trick aye. Nope, wasn't me and apparently the effect was more along the lines of a Johnny Cash song.

and it burns burns burns
the ring of fire
the ring of fire

[Clockwork]

Many years ago (way too many) I was liberally applying Brut splash on, (you know, the way they do in the commercials) The stuff splashed on to my balls............



:shit::shit: Shit!!! that got hot! :shit::shit:
The dance was somthing like this---> :banana:

[Biff]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Biff]

An old rugby tour trick - wait until one of your fellow rugger buggers has decided to call it a day and collapse in an alcohol induced coma on the floor. Whip their pants down and spray Deep Heat on their sphincter. Then take one condom, spit in it and lay it beside the unfortunate fellow. When he wakes up, his arse is burning and there's a used condom next to him. Just watch the expression on his face when he makes the (incorrect) connection.....oh what fun!! :2thumbsup

[marty]

aahhh the bliss of having winja blocked. no doubt he's calling someone names, or telling them how much their mother likes giving him head. what a boring fuckwit he is

[Blakamin]

[edit] nah, fuck it... WINJA, I told ya I wasn't puttin up with you calling people names so i'll just delete your post

[NC]

i dunno - mikey's kinda funny in an idiotic sort of way. i have some mates with pepper spray though if you ask nicely...... :)
Please please please please please please please LOL

[denill]

I am not a police knocker but have like many others, good reason to question and criticise their priorities. This article appeared in the local newspaper last night.

BillW

Source - <a href=http://hbtoday.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3621063&thesection=localnews&thesubsection=&thesecondsubsection=>HB Today</A><P>

<B>TOP STORY: Body stayed on beach while cop manned speed camera
21.01.2005 </B>

Chris Gardner

"Rescue services left waiting with a drowned man were told police could not attend the Ocean Beach scene - but the man who pulled the body from the waves passed an officer with a speedgun up the road soon after.

Roger Parr, who pulled the body of 79-year-old Havelock North man Jeremiah Henley from the surf at Ranaika with a friend on Saturday, spotted an officer on speed camera duty just minutes from Ocean Beach after being told police were not available after a 40-minute wait.

Ocean Beach Kiwi Surf Patrol was on the scene before Mr Parr, of Napier, and his friend had pulled Mr Henley out.

The Lowe Corporation Rescue Helicopter also responded - taking the body away when they learned police were not coming.

"We waited 40 minutes for the police to come and do their part. Nobody was available to come to the scene of an unexplained death, or to get an account of what had taken place," Mr Parr said.

He thought police must have been busy dealing with essential matters elsewhere, but then saw a police officer with a speedgun about 3km from the scene of the drowning - at the Ocean Beach Road intersection with Waimarama Road.

"I was distressed to see this policeman sitting there in his car and pointing his little speedgun down the road," Mr Parr, patient care co-ordinator at Cranford Hospice, said.

"How can it be that the death of a person is downgraded to such a point of insignificance that it does not warrant any response from the police because they are too busy trying to hand out fines up the road?"

He did not hear from police until Monday, when an officer asked him to go to the Hastings police station and give his statement.

"It would seem that, increasingly, the only way to access any service from the police is to drive at 111km per hour on the open road."

Hastings area commander Inspector Dean Clifford said given the circumstances and staff available he was "happy with how the police staff dealt with this very unfortunate event".

The officer Mr Parr saw was a Road Policing Group member dealing with a crash on Ocean Beach Road, which was experiencing heavy traffic.

"Deployment of resources are made based on the information at hand and, unfortunately, at times those decisions may not meet the expectations of the people involved."

Mr Clifford did not supply details of the crash. A Hastings firestation spokesperson told Hawke's Bay Today that the fire service did not attend any crash in Ocean Beach Road that afternoon.

Mr Henley, a widower, was to be farewelled today at St Luke's Anglican Church in Havelock North.

To set the ledger straight:

Source <a href=http://hbtoday.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3624115&thesection=localnews&thesubsection=&thesecondsubsection=>HB Today:</A>

`Speed-gun' flak a mistake
15.02.2005


Reon Suddaby
"Allegations of police checking for speeding motorists, rather than attending the scene of a drowning at Ocean Beach, have been quashed as more information emerges about decisions made at the time of the death of 79-year-old Jeremiah Henley.

Mr Henley drowned at Ocean Beach on January 15 and Roger Parr, who pulled the body of Mr Henley from the surf, said when he called police he was told they were unavailable.

However, when he drove 3km along the road after the drowning, Mr Parr saw what he thought was a police officer with a speed-gun.




Hastings area commander Inspector Dean Clifford said at the time the officer Mr Parr had seen had not been on speed camera duty, but had been dealing with a crash on Ocean Beach Road. He did not supply details of the crash.
However, Inspector Gary Allcock, of the police central communications centre, later said police attended an accident on the road at 6pm, a fact confirmed by Minister of Police George Hawkins in response to written parliamentary questions lodged by National Party police spokesperson Tony Ryall.

Mr Hawkins confirmed two police cars had been working in the Hastings area at the time of Mr Henley's drowning, and that one of the cars attended the road accident after police were made aware of the situation at 5.17pm.

Mr Allcock said it appeared a vehicle spun out on Ocean Beach Road, with the four occupants thought to be uninjured. However, a later report from a volunteer fire brigade which attended the crash said two of the car's occupants had delayed shock.

Yesterday, Mr Clifford said police first heard of the drowning at 5.33pm, at which point Mr Henley was confirmed dead.

As ambulance services and the Lowe Corporation Rescue Helicopter were already at the scene of the drowning, and because of the location of the body, the decision was made for the helicopter to bring the body back. Police met the helicopter at Hawke's Bay Hospital."

Cheers
BillW

[Blakamin]

Mr Hawkins confirmed two police cars had been working in the Hastings area at the time of Mr Henley's drowning,
For a town with the troubles it has, I find it amazing they only had 2 cops on the road...
shit, the place is so crime-ridden it has its own court!!!

[Pixie]

I have serious doubts regarding that comment, but I would try to help in a non violent way. The only law I am aware of that says you can assault someone is if they are attempting suicide, then you can use any force required to stop the person :Playnice:
Including killing them?

[inlinefour]

Including killing them?

Just to stop them. Killing is murder...

[Pixie]

I guess it's obvious that I don't have a lot of respect for what our Police force has turned into, but incidents such as happened yesterday won't improve that.
I was travelling towards the motorway on Onewa Rd and saw one of the Motorway support utes was about to turn left from the off-ramp into Onewa. This cretin looks straight at me and pulls out! So I tootle him vigourously and, thinking he'll stop for a nap soon, follow him onto the motorway. He doesn't stop so I pulled alongside and gave another tootle to attract his attention, like a naughty schoolboy he didn't look to see what all the noise was for, just stared straight ahead.
Now, I've heard that Police drivers will be graded gold, silver, bronze etc. But this guy is a dead cert for lead.
No...he was a gold

[Pixie]

Honda it appears from your comments that you really don't understand what the Job (policing) is all about???? Most of us didn't sign up for Traffic Policing, but hell thats now part of the job, so we do it, believe me when dealing with traffic offences the Drivers/Riders attitude plays a major part.
I have been in this job for over twenty years and met some bloody interesting people, a large number I still know today.
REMEMBER it could be your ass were trying to save.
One thing I have learnt about with this job, nine times out of ten the ones that couse problems for everyone else SCREAM the loudest when something happens to them.
We don't make the law's they Govt's that we all VOTE in Do.

Sorry guy's I get pissed off with the cop bashing (media). :done: :done: :done:
As Homer Simpson put it:do a half arsed job...it's the american way

[jimbo600]

Yeah the old feds get a bashing alright. However when they catch a dickhead like the guy in Wanganui who murdered the girl on the riverbank they get fuck all attention. Pats on the back to spud and all the other cops on this forum who work stupid hours and get crap all recognition unless it's a bashing. Some HP do let you guys down though but most of us know theres a difference.

[jaybee180]

I've just spent the last hour reading through all this - mmmmm interesting reading.

I've worked as a non-sworn (yes one of those front counter receptionists Marty) for the last 13 years and have to say that I'm always impressed with how most of them handle themselves. I tell ya guys, it's not easy for them out there. Let's face it, no one calls a cop coz they are happy. Financial constraints by the Govt are tight and some stations work in conditions that most people would be surprised at.

Overall (and there are always some wankers in any job!) they are a good bunch of guys and I'm proud to have known most of them. If most people dropped the attitude then they would be dealt with professionally and quickly.

Go for it guys and keep up the good work. I don't usually tell people who I work for as it usually results in a lot of crap, and yes, lately there have been more than a few incidents that deserve to be looked at, but most of you work long hours, end up in situations that most people would never experience in a million life times.

To all the cops out there that are dedicated and hard working, keep your chins up and just ignore the people who really couldn't handle what it is that you face every day.

[MSTRS]

Yea, for all the brickbats *we* hand out, I think the old 80/20 rule works as well as it ever did. Apply it any which way you like.

[spudchucka]

To all the cops out there that are dedicated and hard working, keep your chins up and just ignore the people who really couldn't handle what it is that you face every day.
Thanks for the support.

[Sniper]

Thanks for the support.


You deserve it Spud. Well done mate.

[inlinefour]

Thanks for the support.

As I know that I would not want to do the job, good on ya! :niceone:

[idb]

As I know that I would not want to do the job, good on ya! :niceone:
Whaaaat?
That's it? That's the end? What are you all doing???
I've followed this thread since the middle of January - two whole months!!!
I've laughed, I've sucked in my breath between my teeth through pursed lips, I've even shaken my head.
You've teased me, you've excited me and just when I can't stand any more and need release............ you end with a :niceone: ?
Nice threads get bad reputations doing this sort of thing!!!!!!

[WINJA]

Whaaaat?
That's it? That's the end? What are you all doing???
I've followed this thread since the middle of January - two whole months!!!
I've laughed, I've sucked in my breath between my teeth through pursed lips, I've even shaken my head.
You've teased me, you've excited me and just when I can't stand any more and need release............ you end with a :niceone: ?
Nice threads get bad reputations doing this sort of thing!!!!!!
QUITE RIGHT. SO ILL SAY FUCK THE PIGS, MOST OF YOU ARE DOING A SHIT JOB AND YOUR MOTHERS ARE ASHAMED OF YOU , SO THEY SAY WHEN I SEE THEM WORKING THE STREETS. (EXCEPT THAT GOOD COP THATS ON HERE)

[idb]

QUITE RIGHT. SO ILL SAY FUCK THE PIGS, MOST OF YOU ARE DOING A SHIT JOB AND YOUR MOTHERS ARE ASHAMED OF YOU , SO THEY SAY WHEN I SEE THEM WORKING THE STREETS. (EXCEPT THAT GOOD COP THATS ON HERE)
Yaaaay.
Onwards and downwards!!!

[gav]

:killingme
Check this out!
http://kroq.wmod.llnwd.net/a168/o1/kbaudio/911_tape.asf

[spudchucka]

It must have been one of WINJA's rellies that made that call.

[Dafe]

I feel sorry for the cops. Some of the Police genuinely want to make a difference to the well being of the public. Problem is, there are other cops who are just big headed and arrogant.
Once upon a time the Police were very well respected.
Now with the equal rights bill being passed into legislation, thats all changed.
I remember about ten years ago when I was walking along the street in Wellington, around the corner came this copper in his uniform. I almost cracked up in laughter.....He looked like he must have been five foot four! I don't think I'd ever seen a cop under six foot before.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, The Police no longer have the publics respect, The job they do is no longer appealing or admirable to any person, they are considered "Revenue Collectors" first and foremost!
The Police can only be building an arogant attitude now due to the fact that they have lost the respect of the public.

[WINJA]

It must have been one of WINJA's rellies that made that call.
DONT MATTER WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT ME , YOU ARE STILL A WORTHLESS PIG AND A FUCKIN LOSER WHO COULDNT GET A PROPER JOB

[spudchucka]

DONT MATTER WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT ME , YOU ARE STILL A WORTHLESS PIG AND A FUCKIN LOSER WHO COULDNT GET A PROPER JOB
Hows your mum?

[inlinefour]

Hows your mum?

Allready written him out of the will (PT) :msn-wink:

[scumdog]

I've just spent the last hour reading through all this - mmmmm interesting reading.
To all the cops out there that are dedicated and hard working, keep your chins up and just ignore the people who really couldn't handle what it is that you face every day.

Thanks for the + comments, good to hear from somebody that REALLY knows what it's like at the coal-face. :niceone:

And oh yeah, that WINJA guy? just another wannabe cop who couldn't make the grade so being the petulant sort of person has thrown all the toys out of the cot. :Pokey:

[madboy]

Is this thread still going? Jeez... I can't be bothered going back to page 16 or so where I last left it... are we still bashing the police, or have we reached the logical conclusion that they're just a bunch of human beings (with varying qualities) doing a job?

[RDJ]

Y'know, a few days back I read this thread all at once and it left a very bad taste... some of the comments in this thread are really inappropriate no matter what contacts we may have had with individual police which have left us unhappy.

Are there "bad apples" in the police force? Of course, as in every human endeavour.

Should we judge all police by the actions of a (very) few? Hmmm... let's see... should all car drivers judge all bikers by the actions of a few?

The percentage of police that are stupid / corrupt / venal etc in NZ is IMO significantly far less than that in the average population, and certainly much less than in many (most?) other countries, and speaking for myself I am grateful that these men and women put themselves at risk usually to protect us.

Please give the police-bashing a rest. We are bikers. We are a community as much as police are. But if we fall off who - besides the medics - will pick us up, redirect the traffic, listen to our story, help us get home, and if the worst happens, tell our loved ones? The police. As a community they help us a lot more than we help them.

Policing may be interesting, challenging, even rewarding, but it cannot often be fun.

Please give the police community as a whole a break and let's at the very least show some respect by being polite when we disagree with them as individuals.

(Steps off soapbox)

Yes I know if we speed we get ticketed. Solution: I shouldn't speed if I don't want a ticket. (Full disclosure: my last ticket was on SH1 in 2003...)

[Sniper]

And oh yeah, that WINJA guy? just another wannabe cop who couldn't make the grade so being the petulant sort of person has thrown all the toys out of the cot. :Pokey:

Oh yea and if I called him an arsehole, would I be wrong? :drinknsin

[outlawtorn]

Y'know, a few days back I read this thread all at once and it left a very bad taste... some of the comments in this thread are really inappropriate no matter what contacts we may have had with individual police which have left us unhappy.

Are there "bad apples" in the police force? Of course, as in every human endeavour.

Should we judge all police by the actions of a (very) few? Hmmm... let's see... should all car drivers judge all bikers by the actions of a few?

The percentage of police that are stupid / corrupt / venal etc in NZ is IMO significantly far less than that in the average population, and certainly much less than in many (most?) other countries, and speaking for myself I am grateful that these men and women put themselves at risk usually to protect us.

Please give the police-bashing a rest. We are bikers. We are a community as much as police are. But if we fall off who - besides the medics - will pick us up, redirect the traffic, listen to our story, help us get home, and if the worst happens, tell our loved ones? The police. As a community they help us a lot more than we help them.

Policing may be interesting, challenging, even rewarding, but it cannot often be fun.

Please give the police community as a whole a break and let's at the very least show some respect by being polite when we disagree with them as individuals.

(Steps off soapbox)

Yes I know if we speed we get ticketed. Solution: I shouldn't speed if I don't want a ticket. (Full disclosure: my last ticket was on SH1 in 2003...)

Hear hear, leave the cops alone, they are only doing their job.

FYI, now that I have permanent residence I am looking into becoming a police officer, dunno what field yet, but I would really like to help support and police this wonderful country. I know some of you are thinking "oh fuck, this prick in the police force" but I do reckon I would enjoy it, I like helping people out.

But WINJA, please note that if I do join the police force I do not automatically become a bastard, I'll have you know I am already a bastard and I already dislike you. :lol:

[outlawtorn]

Oh yea and if I called him an arsehole, would I be wrong? :drinknsin
No you wouldn't, so feel free to call him an arsehole from the rooftops

[scumdog]

Oh yea and if I called him an arsehole, would I be wrong? :drinknsin

Probably not - but then again it might just be an otherwise honourable member of the site trolling (lot of :shifty: buggers out there) - in which case he IS an arsehole for trolling so well!

Having said that I reckon yup, he's just another arsehole.

[Lou Girardin]

I do reckon I would enjoy it, I like helping people out.

:lol:

You're immediately disqualified from applying.

[scumdog]

You're immediately disqualified from applying.
Lous right, you have to be bigotted, you have to lie, you have make motorists lives a misery, you have speed when theres no need, you have to drink to excess, you have to fall into a certain 'culture' and you have to have no brain, crikey it's no wonder I feel like I don't 'fit in' with my job!!! :whistle: ( PT)

BTW, most of the above comments seem to on par for a lot of members of this site!! :bleh:

[WINJA]

Hear hear, leave the cops alone, they are only doing their job.

FYI, now that I have permanent residence I am looking into becoming a police officer, dunno what field yet, but I would really like to help support and police this wonderful country. I know some of you are thinking "oh fuck, this prick in the police force" but I do reckon I would enjoy it, I like helping people out.

But WINJA, please note that if I do join the police force I do not automatically become a bastard, I'll have you know I am already a bastard and I already dislike you. :lol:
IF YOU JOIN THE POLICE AND YOU HAND OUT TICKETS FOR 115KMH ON AN EMPTY MOTORWAY THEN YOU ARENT A BASTARD, YOURE A CUNT. AND THIS IS MY PROBLEM COPS THAT HAND OUT THESE KIND OF TICKETS ARE REVENUE GATHERING AND WE ALL KNOW IT, THROW ALL THE STATISTICS AT IT YOU LIKE THE AVERAGE SPEED IS LOWER THAN EVER BUT THE HOLIDAY ROAD TOLL IS AT 9. SO TARGETING THE SPEEDERS AT THE LOWER END OF THE SPECTRUM IS BULLSHIT.
SPUD , SCUM AND NOD YOU CAN ALL FUCK OFF , YOUVE BEEN BRAINWASHED BY YOUR SUPERIORS INTO BELIEVING THIS SPEEDING BULLSHIT AND YOUR ALL A BUNCH OF HOMOS

[Morepower]

I have just read a fair bit of this thread and am sorry I wasted so much time but want to put in my 2c.

I would hate to be a cop (and I am talking real police not Highway Patrol), the main reason is the low life scum that they have to deal with that thankfully most of us never meet in our daily lives.
Secondly the force is ultimately controlled by Politics and and the need to provide good statistics so some fat prick gets a bonus.

Also the Police have to act within the law , the lowlife dont and that must be frustrating as hell.

Sure we all hear the horror stories when things go wrong or a cop gets it all wrong. The media dont help ,thier reporting of facts in my first hand experience is often nothing short of ficticious.

There are pricks in all walks of life.

I note that Winja makes a lot of unreasoned comment behind a good deal of anonimity by not disclosing model of bike or location. There are plenty of people on this board who know who I am , I have nothing to hide.
There are a few idiots on the force who should not be there but there are plenty of good Cops, its not intelligent to make sweeping generalisations.


My 2c

Dave

[peterjdaly]

Alas, there is a village out there somewhere missing it's idiot. Winja, get back in touch with your village and get back to work, the village needs people like you in order to realise what decent people actually think. :shake:

[Lou Girardin]

Lous right, you have to be bigotted, you have to lie, you have make motorists lives a misery, you have speed when theres no need, you have to drink to excess, you have to fall into a certain 'culture' and you have to have no brain, crikey it's no wonder I feel like I don't 'fit in' with my job!!! :whistle: ( PT)

BTW, most of the above comments seem to on par for a lot of members of this site!! :bleh:

Mr Dog, I have to say you're a true gem and definitely the exception that proves the rule.
As for winja, if he ever formulates a cogent argument, I might almost agree with him.

[scumdog]

IF YOU JOIN THE POLICE AND YOU HAND OUT TICKETS FOR 115KMH ON AN EMPTY MOTORWAY THEN YOU ARENT A BASTARD, YOURE A CUNT. AND THIS IS MY PROBLEM COPS THAT HAND OUT THESE KIND OF TICKETS ARE REVENUE GATHERING AND WE ALL KNOW IT, THROW ALL THE STATISTICS AT IT YOU LIKE THE AVERAGE SPEED IS LOWER THAN EVER BUT THE HOLIDAY ROAD TOLL IS AT 9. SO TARGETING THE SPEEDERS AT THE LOWER END OF THE SPECTRUM IS BULLSHIT.
SPUD , SCUM AND NOD YOU CAN ALL FUCK OFF , YOUVE BEEN BRAINWASHED BY YOUR SUPERIORS INTO BELIEVING THIS SPEEDING BULLSHIT AND YOUR ALL A BUNCH OF HOMOS

winja, are you trying to make a point? please explain a little bit more clearly what you are attempting to tell us....

and the "your" in the sentence 'your all a bunch of homos' should actually be "you're", BTW...

[RDJ]

IF YOU JOIN THE POLICE AND YOU HAND OUT TICKETS FOR 115KMH ON AN EMPTY MOTORWAY THEN YOU ARENT A BASTARD, YOURE A CUNT. AND THIS IS MY PROBLEM COPS THAT HAND OUT THESE KIND OF TICKETS ARE REVENUE GATHERING AND WE ALL KNOW IT, THROW ALL THE STATISTICS AT IT YOU LIKE THE AVERAGE SPEED IS LOWER THAN EVER BUT THE HOLIDAY ROAD TOLL IS AT 9. SO TARGETING THE SPEEDERS AT THE LOWER END OF THE SPECTRUM IS BULLSHIT.
SPUD , SCUM AND NOD YOU CAN ALL FUCK OFF , YOUVE BEEN BRAINWASHED BY YOUR SUPERIORS INTO BELIEVING THIS SPEEDING BULLSHIT AND YOUR ALL A BUNCH OF HOMOS

ah the sweet sound of reasoned discourse.... seriously, if you are looking to convince people of the rightness of your position and the soundness of your arguments, this is not the way. If on the other hand you are trolling to provoke replies and annoy people, I apologize to others on the forum for feeding the troll.

[Krusti]

Hey WINJA when you have been there, done that then you can mouth off all you like. :cool:

[scumdog]

Hey WINJA when you have been there, done that then you can mouth off all you like. :cool:

Good point but see my post (#559) on why he can't!

[Ixion]

ah the sweet sound of reasoned discourse.... seriously, if you are looking to convince people of the rightness of your position and the soundness of your arguments, this is not the way. If on the other hand you are trolling to provoke replies and annoy people, I apologize to others on the forum for feeding the troll.


winja, are you trying to make a point? please explain a little bit more clearly what you are attempting to tell us....


Well, it is polemic rather than discourse. But there are three points in Mr WINJA's statement which are at least arguable.

His implicit objection to the present no-discretion magic number approach to speed enforcement is one that I suspect is shared by a good many on the board.And the counterpoint, that speed enforcement should make allowance for the circumstances is certainly not unreasonable.

Mr WINJA suspects that police policies are overly driven by revenue recognition. In this he is supported by a large section of the public. Although it is doubtless false at the coalface level, it is hard to avoid suspicion that overall strategy in the Commissioner's office at least casts an eye at the numbers (incidentally the oft repeated statement that the Police force derive no benefit from the generated revenue is not quite true). Although Mr WINJA does not expressly make the point, there is a implicit corollary also that the police concentrate over much on easily measurable offences (speed, blood alcohol) at the expense of "judgement" offences.

And Mr WINJA's observation that the road toll this Easter is the highest for some years, despite the efforts of the no-discretion policy, and an admitted reduction in average speed is unarguable. The statistics are not robust, since the numbers involved are small enough that random variation can cause such swings (no, not you Mr jrandom, it's not your fault) . But, I think we can be sure that if the road toll had been lower than previous years , then the no-discretion policy would have been given credit for the good. So it is only reasonable that it should at least be questioned when the reverse happens
.

Hopefully, this will serve to clarify somewhat the gist of Mr WINJA's argument

Strictly speaking , a troll is not one who makes an aggressive statement, even if it be unpopular, but rather one who initiates a provocative thread then disappears and makes no attempt to defend his position. I do not think that is so in Mr WINJA's case . He always hangs around to reiterate his opinion

[RDJ]

Happy to be corrected on the definition of troll...

I think few KBs would disagree that the perceived emphasis on collecting cash from speeders is driven from the top of the police / political hierarchy - all the more reason IMO for us not to abuse the people on the ground.

And yes every time the toll falls the politicos in police and Govt circles claim credit for their policies... and when it rises they insist more of the same are needed.

And, 1 car crash alone with a self-confessed speed addict is responsible for the statistical bump upwards.

Trouble is the signal-to-noise ratio in the way these arguments have previously been presented.

regards

[scumdog]

Well, it is polemic rather than discourse. But there are three points in Mr WINJA's statement which are at least arguable.

Mr WINJA suspects that police policies are overly driven by revenue recognition. In this he is supported by a large section of the public. Although it is doubtless false at the coalface level, it is hard to avoid suspicion that overall strategy in the Commissioner's office at least casts an eye at the numbers (incidentally the oft repeated statement that the Police force derive no benefit from the generated revenue is not quite true).

Hopefully, this will serve to clarify somewhat the gist of Mr WINJA's argument



Not defending Govt policy but if revenue gathering was the ONLY reason tickets are given out then how come the Govt. lets us away with issuing "compliance" tickets for worn tyres, non-funtional head/tail lights, recently expired WOFs etc?? :confused: - THEY sure as hell don't raise ANY revenue (unless the ticket recipient is too slack to rectify the fault).

[MSTRS]

Not defending Govt policy but if revenue gathering was the ONLY reason tickets are given out then how come the Govt. lets us away with issuing "compliance" tickets for worn tyres, non-funtional head/tail lights, recently expired WOFs etc?? :confused: - THEY sure as hell don't raise ANY revenue (unless the ticket recipient is too slack to rectify the fault).
I take that to mean 'proof of repair or else a fine' since I've never had one of these. If so, it could be to moderate the image derived from other ticketing activities :whistle:

[Ixion]

Not defending Govt policy but if revenue gathering was the ONLY reason tickets are given out then how come the Govt. lets us away with issuing "compliance" tickets for worn tyres, non-funtional head/tail lights, recently expired WOFs etc?? :confused: - THEY sure as hell don't raise ANY revenue (unless the ticket recipient is too slack to rectify the fault).

Perhaps because such matters are (a) not worth much revenue in total (b) in some cases at least not easily "measurable" - eg worn tyres. Don't talk too loudly about it though you you may get a directive !

I don't think anyone has ever suggested that revenue is the ONLY reason that tickets are issued. Only that the revenue implications skew the strategic direction (not the decisions you guys make, but the way resources are allocated etc). I find it hard to believe that the decision of how many manhours (ie how many people assigned) to spend on speeding enforcement versus how many to burglary is not skewed by the fact that one generates a revenue stream and the other does not . The revenue stream doesn't go directly to the Police , but it does follow back through the LTSA and eventually wind up as extra budget for the Police department.

[Krusti]

The main driving force for alocation of man hours in certain areas, ie seatbelt hours etc is Local Govt funding. Each area is funded to supply X number of hours for seatbelt ,Excess breath alcohol etc traffic duties. No proof of hours...no funding.

[Ixion]

The main driving force for alocation of man hours in certain areas, ie seatbelt hours etc is Local Govt funding. Each area is funded to supply X number of hours for seatbelt ,Excess breath alcohol etc traffic duties. No proof of hours...no funding.

See, this is where , from a public perception point of view, the problem arises.

Police funding is driven by external agencies (LTSA, Local bodies etc). So cops get told "Spend X hours on seatbelts (or whatever)" . Because as you note, if they don't then the police lose out on funding. So the word comes down from on high.

But PC Blogs, who is told to spend all those hours, also has to justify to his immediate superiors what he is doing. If it appears that he is just bumming around they'll come down on him. So, while he's putting in those hours on seatbelts (or whatever) he has to generate some tickets . Otherwise Sergeant will be saying "Just what the hell were you doing all day yesterday Blogs" . So PC Blogs must ticket away , which is where the public see "revenue generation" He's not really doing because it raises money, but it is still the revenue issue that is driving the tickets.

What doesn't enter the picture is whether FROM THE PUBLICS POINT OF VIEW those hours would be better spent , say, in chasing up shoplifters and maybe getting some young guy straightened out before it's too late. LTSA , local council just say (logically enough) "we're not responsible for that"

Effectively the decisions on policing resource have been allowed to migrate outside the police force, and are being taken by people who are not publically accountable for them.

And since the traffic operations do indeed generate a big net profit, LTSA/Local bodies etc have no difficulty getting central government to fund more of it. Which in turns means that central governemnt screws down the amount that it funds direct to the police, since it can (truthfully) claim that police funding has (overall) increased. Unfortunately catching burglars doesn't generate any revenue to justify more resources

Net result is that the public get told that there is no police resource to protect them from burglers, shoplifters, bashers. And then see all the police cars parked up at the road side. Justifiably they think something's wrong.

[Pixie]

Happy to be corrected on the definition of troll...

I think few KBs would disagree that the perceived emphasis on collecting cash from speeders is driven from the top of the police / political hierarchy - all the more reason IMO for us not to abuse the people on the ground.


I vas chust followink orders

[vifferman]

Probably not - but then again it might just be an otherwise honourable member of the site trolling (lot of :shifty: buggers out there) - in which case he IS an arsehole for trolling so well!.
Like me for instance? :whistle:

its good being able to be someone else sometimes so you can be ruder than you normally are or whatever.

OR TYPE IN CAPITALS AND PRETENT THERES SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR EYES, AYE WINJA? :yes:
THE ONLY THING WRONG WITH WINJAS EYES IS BLINDNESS CAUSED BY TOO MUCH MONKEY SPANKING, SAME WITH HIS HAIRY PALMS. :tugger:

[Lou Girardin]

I'd respect the rank and file cops a lot more if they publicly disagreed with current policies. Just like several UK Police Associations have done. The fact that they don't seems to indicate that they agree with them.

[outlawtorn]

Like me for instance? :whistle:

its good being able to be someone else sometimes so you can be ruder than you normally are or whatever.

OR TYPE IN CAPITALS AND PRETENT THERES SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR EYES, AYE WINJA? :yes:
THE ONLY THING WRONG WITH WINJAS EYES IS BLINDNESS CAUSED BY TOO MUCH MONKEY SPANKING, SAME WITH HIS HAIRY PALMS. :tugger:
Is that what winja claims? :killingme :lol: :killingme
I wonder if he's heard of screen resolution adjustment? Or maybe it is from too many nights spent in front of the PC doing some one handed surfing!
:killingme

[RDJ]

I vas chust followink orders

mmm... unusual moral equivalence alert. Police ticketing speeders according to the law of the land (not singling us out on the basis of race, not putting us against the wall and shooting us, not 'concentrating' us in 'camps') being - if I understand the accented phrase above - equated with Nazi tactics? I don't see the connection / equivalence at all.

Actually, I obey orders at work myself, a lot. I obey my professional association's orders regarding my work practice, a lot. I better continue to do so if I want to keep my job.

Don't you obey orders as well, Pixie? I'm sure you do. :niceone:

[Ixion]

mmm... unusual moral equivalence alert. Police ticketing speeders according to the law of the land (not singling us out on the basis of race, not putting us against the wall and shooting us, not 'concentrating' us in 'camps') being - if I understand the accented phrase above - equated with Nazi tactics? I don't see the connection / equivalence at all.



Uhh. I think it was actually a Sgt Schultz take off

A humorous or ironic reference to the necessity we are all under at times of doing that which we may disagree with, or think unwise, because "the boss" says to.

Although the legendary Sgt was a member of the Wehrmacht, I think that few would regard him as a "Nazi" . :2thumbsup

[RDJ]

Ah! Hogans Heroes - "Colonel Klink, I know nuffink! NUFFINK!"

My apologies Pixie if that was the intent. I thought I was seeing an example of Godwin's Law in action.

As they say "paranoia is its own reward..."

[inlinefour]

Oh yea and if I called him an arsehole, would I be wrong? :drinknsin

As he has not yet given us any reason to believe otherwise...

[WINJA]

I'd respect the rank and file cops a lot more if they publicly disagreed with current policies. Just like several UK Police Associations have done. The fact that they don't seems to indicate that they agree with them.
IN THE LATE 90'S I WAS GIVEN A CHOICE BY MY EMPLOYER, COMPLY WITH AN IMMORAL REQUEST OR FACE DISMISSAL, I CHOSE DISMISSAL. PEOPLE HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS, WE ALL KNOW THE POLICE ARE REVENUE GATHERING YET THE GUY ON THE COAL FACE CONTINUES TO DO ROAD SIDE TAX COLLECTORS,ITS UP TO THESE INDIVIDUALS TO SAY FUCK THE BOSS ILL DO WHATS RIGHT. IF SPEEDING WAS THAT SERIOUS HELEN CLARK WOULD NOT HAVE PERMITTED HER DRIVER TO SPEED, AND THE POLICE WOULD HAVE A LIMITED PURSUIT POLICY.
I COULD BE WRONG ABOUT THIS BUT IN AUSTRALIA NT WAS THE ONLY STATE WITHOUT FATALITIES DURING EASTER AND THEY ARE THE ONLY STATE WITH NO SPEED LIMIT(CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG)

[Ixion]

As he has not yet given us any reason to believe otherwise...

See the post immediately below perhaps ? Strident, yes, but principled also.

[WINJA]

Like me for instance? :whistle:

its good being able to be someone else sometimes so you can be ruder than you normally are or whatever.

OR TYPE IN CAPITALS AND PRETENT THERES SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR EYES, AYE WINJA? :yes:
THE ONLY THING WRONG WITH WINJAS EYES IS BLINDNESS CAUSED BY TOO MUCH MONKEY SPANKING, SAME WITH HIS HAIRY PALMS. :tugger:
THIS IS ALL TRUE, EXCEPT YOU FORGOT THE PART ABOUT YOUR MUM BEING A $2 WHORE WHO GIVES HANDJOBS FOR CIGARETTES

[MikeL]

Ixion, I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything you have written: your analysis will be very hard to refute.

And MR WINJA, we all have an axe to grind: it's the way we go about it that determines whether we will derive any more benefit from airing our views than the short-lived satisfaction of scoring a cheap shot through scurrilous personal invective.

[spudchucka]

And since the traffic operations do indeed generate a big net profit, LTSA/Local bodies etc have no difficulty getting central government to fund more of it. Which in turns means that central governemnt screws down the amount that it funds direct to the police, since it can (truthfully) claim that police funding has (overall) increased. Unfortunately catching burglars doesn't generate any revenue to justify more resources
Just out of interest how do you see the ACC funded Booze Bus police operations fitting within this framework of funding and revenue collection?

These units account for a reasonable chunk of police resources. There core business is to target drink drivers. Every drink driver that gives a positive result ends up in the court system. Some plead guilty very early, others drag the process out and end up costing the justice system $$$$. There are no instant fines for drink driving to flush up the Govt coffers.

Are these units about revenue gathering or are they about road safety?

By the way I'm not trying to crap on your arguements, I'm just interested in what people think of this part of police work.

[RDJ]

I'll stick my neck out Spud :-)

Drivers who drink are operating heavy and dangerous machinery while heavily impaired and are ipso facto dangerous to other road users and pedestrians - they cannot react properly to either expected or unexpected changes in the environment. Keeping these drivers off the road saves hospital and health care budget money as well as doing the job we need the police to do - keeping us safe.

Drivers who speed are operating heavy and dangerous machinery faster than an arbitrary limit - which may or not be dangerous. A queue of 10 cars spaced by the two-second rule along the Desert Road on a clear day doing 110 km/hr is not necessarily more dangerous than if they all did 100 k - and certainly less dangerous than 9 cars doing 100 and 1 car doing 75... Ticketing the queue has a different imperative behind it.

IMO
My 2 rubles worth
YMMV
and other disclaimers...

[spudchucka]

I take your points as they are valid. The blanket speed limit is not always appropriate, sometimes it should be higher, other times it should be lower.

I didn't wan't a drink driving versus speed enforcement versus criminal enforcement type analysis though.

What I'd like to know is simply whether people think that targeting drink drivers and funding resources specifically for that purpose is motivated, (from a police & Govt point of view), primarily as a revenue gathering exercise or as a legitimate road safety strategy?

[Jantar]

I take your points as they are valid. The blanket speed limit is not always appropriate, sometimes it should be higher, other times it should be lower.

I didn't wan't a drink driving versus speed enforcement versus criminal enforcement type analysis though.

What I'd like to know is simply whether people think that targeting drink drivers and funding resources specifically for that purpose is motivated, (from a police & Govt point of view), primarily as a revenue gathering exercise or as a legitimate road safety strategy?

I do agree with stopping drunk drivers, but not with targetting them. Its also a bit like with the speeding issue, I disagree with an abitrary limit. Some people have a much higher tolerance to alcohol than others, and I fail to see that some who is 1 point over the limit is 6 months disqualification more dangerous than someone who is 1 point under the limit. I realise that there is no instant fine for being over the limit, but the fine does still go to the government, and is therefore another form of revenue collecting.

Perhaps the government need to remember that ALL accidents have at least one, and usually more, primary causes. Driving while slightly over the legal limit, or exceeding the speed limit by a small amount while otherwise driving safely is almost never a primary cause. Failing to give way, failing to keep left, dangerous overtaking etc are primary causes, and these are the ones that should be hit the hardest.

[250learna]

wow now this is one crazy thread! Everyone is fireing up and hostile. I dont want to get involved but i will laydown my experiances with the law.
@I had one ticket ever... rolling over a stop sign (maybe 5 or 10kph) in a pitch black street with no cars or people around (except the cop hiding in the dark down the street) $150
@i have been rear ended on the motorway by a car at 110kph on motorway because i beeped at him when he fell asleep at the lights - went in and layd a complaint... told that have to go to court and can go either way, i said i want to press on and they advised me not to!!!!!!! i said i will anyways and was told they will press on and get back to me, never herd from them again!!!
@have had some big maori guy drive right up my arse and then drive next to me trying to push me to the wrog lane of the motorway with his ss comodore because i was not going fast enough for him, than he overtook and slamed his breaks - another complaint at the police station was told he is not supose to even be on the road, i asked for follow up and to be kept updated on situation, they assured me they would - never herd from them again!!!!

Seems to me that the only thing that they are interested in is the quota, while serious trouble is there they are all trying to give speeding tickets on SH1 where a bit of speed in a straight line is not realy dangerous. Try focusing on windy roads where te dangers realy is, not a straight streatch of road.
Saying that a few times i have had good experience with cops giving a helping hand...
and also have to say that wellington water cops are cool... gave me and some m8s a lift bak after the motor on the boat craped out by somes island, and saved us from some 2 hours worth of rowing :banana:
It comes down to the individual cop and i personaly think that cops should not only focus on the speeding done by your average joe at 115kph, theres planty of other "serious" crime that they can spend their time on

And yes if a cop was in trouble and i felt that i could make a difference to the outcome and not just get my arse kicked i would do my best to assist just like i would to any of you.

[RDJ]

What I'd like to know is simply whether people think that targeting drink drivers and funding resources specifically for that purpose is motivated primarily as a revenue gathering exercise or as a legitimate road safety strategy?

IMO this is a legitimate safety strategy. The same way WOFs are. Compared to registering vehicles and petrol taxes which are (almost) purely for revenue generation.

Regards

[Ixion]

Just out of interest how do you see the ACC funded Booze Bus police operations fitting within this framework of funding and revenue collection?

These units account for a reasonable chunk of police resources. There core business is to target drink drivers.
Are these units about revenue gathering or are they about road safety?

By the way I'm not trying to crap on your arguements, I'm just interested in what people think of this part of police work.

First thing is whether the ACC demand a pound of flesh from the police in exchange for the funding.

In a sense the drink driving operations are revenue positive for the ACC because reducing drink driving saves them money. That's good for everybody provided that they're not using their funding as a lever to influence priorities. Which I believe does happen with the LTSA.

I don't think anyone is silly enough to believe that even the HP say "Yippie another guy going X kph. Thats another $400 I've earned". But the public do perceive that the revenue earned by fines cycles back, through central government into the LTSA and then sways resource prioritisation decisions. Since there's no direct revenue from drink policing I would think the public sentiment would not be so opposed.

But, I recall a few years ago there was a period when the police were doing a lot of breath testing at peak hours. The percentage of positives was minute, the public were annoyed, and even more annoyed when the police said that they had to do it because they were contracted to (I think) ACC to test so many drivers per month. The was a bit of a stink about that. It is the same sort of thing, people feel that the police should allocate their time based on the seriousness of crimes reported , not because they have a contract with some third party.

What concerns me about (eg) the LTSA is that the funds come with conditions. If the ACC say "Well, keeping drink drivers off the road saves us paying out in ACC claims. We know you (the police) want that too. Here's some buses and some money to run them, no strings attached " then that's all good by me. What I don't like about the LTSA (and probably other) funding is the strings that appear to come with it. As someone earlier said "no hours, no funding" . That means that strategic decisions at headquarters level get slanted by the need to support the funding. I don't know if that's the case with the ACC or not.

In essence I'm asking if the Police are calling the shots (" We , the police, have decided to have X coppers focused on drink driving. Will the ACC help fund that cost of that . You will, oh good") Or does the ACC call the shots (" We , the ACC , want to see Y hours of targeted drink drive enforcement . We will pay Z dollars for that. But you can't use the hours paid for by us for other police purposes"). This is bad, because central government adds the amounts paid by LTSA, ACC into the budget, so that it reduces in effect the amount of "strings free" funding available to the police. And it is that strings free funding that pays for most of the traditional copper functions. Hence we have the Minister saying that the police funding is higher than ever before, and the police saying that they don't have the resources to deal with burglary and such like.

Its a nice deal for the government. They can reduce the amount they pay directly because of all the other people paying. And although the government still indirectly pays that, it recovers it all and more through the revenue generated . (The revenue from instant fines and speed cameras *is* set as a credit in the LTSA vote)

Ideally I'd prefer to see the LTSA, the ACC and all the rest of them just put the money into a big pot and the pot given to the police to divide up as they see fit. Or even simpler, instead of the government taking it off the taxpayer, giving it to the LTSA/ACC and the latter giving it back to the police, why not have the government give it directly to the police in the first place. And have them decide how much for booze buses, how much for general duties etc.

[Lou Girardin]

If it's not about revenue, perhaps the police should stop budgeting for fines revenue in the following financial year.

[Pixie]

[QUOTE=Ixion]First thing is whether the ACC demand a pound of flesh from the police in exchange for the funding.

QUOTE]
Govt. says to LTNZ:reduce road toll (it gets votes)

LTNZ buys time from the police for enforcement.

Police set minimum value of fines to match money from LTNZ.

Police admin get on the back of frontline cops to meet tickets per cop quota.

LTNZ wants evidence of value for money from police.

Police wave wad of money at LTNZ and say:Look $40 million in fines.

LTNZ pats Rob Robinson on the head and says"good boy your' boys can have another $40 million for next year.

Govt. says "Good boy,Rob;you can keep your $400K job for another year.

Everybody's happy,get pissed and have a party! :banana:

[MikeL]

I don't think I ever got a satisfactory answer to the question I posed some time ago:
"Why do we need an LTSA?" (or LTNZ or whatever acronym is current - it will no doubt change again before long)
Can anyone show convincingly that the LTNZ is more effective and more efficient than the old government departments which used to have its responsibilities?

(Just as I need convincing that NZQA has materially improved the state of education in this country...)

[Ixion]

[QUOTE=Ixion]First thing is whether the ACC demand a pound of flesh from the police in exchange for the funding.

QUOTE]
Govt. says to LTNZ:reduce road toll (it gets votes)
LTNZ buys time from the police for enforcement.
Police set minimum value of fines to match money from LTNZ.
Police admin get on the back of frontline cops to meet tickets per cop quota.
LTNZ wants evidence of value for money from police.
Police wave wad of money at LTNZ and say:Look $40 million in fines.
LTNZ pats Rob Robinson on the head and says"good boy your' boys can have another $40 million for next year.
Govt. says "Good boy,Rob;you can keep your $400K job for another year.
Everybody's happy,get pissed and have a party! :banana:

Definately so with LTNZ. Not sure about ACC (Accident Compensation Corp)

[Ixion]

I don't think I ever got a satisfactory answer to the question I posed some time ago:
"Why do we need an LTSA?" (or LTNZ or whatever acronym is current - it will no doubt change again before long)


Or why we need a Minister of Road Safety, a Minister of Transport , and a Police Minister.

[scumdog]

IN THE LATE 90'S I WAS GIVEN A CHOICE BY MY EMPLOYER, COMPLY WITH AN IMMORAL REQUEST OR FACE DISMISSAL, I CHOSE DISMISSAL. PEOPLE HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS, WE ALL KNOW THE POLICE ARE REVENUE GATHERING YET THE GUY ON THE COAL FACE CONTINUES TO DO ROAD SIDE TAX COLLECTORS,ITS UP TO THESE INDIVIDUALS TO SAY FUCK THE BOSS ILL DO WHATS RIGHT. IF SPEEDING WAS THAT SERIOUS HELEN CLARK WOULD NOT HAVE PERMITTED HER DRIVER TO SPEED, AND THE POLICE WOULD HAVE A LIMITED PURSUIT POLICY.
I COULD BE WRONG ABOUT THIS BUT IN AUSTRALIA NT WAS THE ONLY STATE WITHOUT FATALITIES DURING EASTER AND THEY ARE THE ONLY STATE WITH NO SPEED LIMIT(CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG)

I was done for drink driving and I only had a reading of 420mgm, sometimes it's suitable to drive with that blood alcohol level, they're just revenue gathering by making the limit 400, why don't they give a bit of discretion?
(this is a PT in case WINJA can't figure it out) :whistle:

It should be like in the U.S. where the fines go back into the state/county and they can set the fines/speed-limits etc, then you WOULD see revenue gathering and nobody would have an argument 'cos they would not be told any different!! :killingme

[Kickaha]

ITS UP TO THESE INDIVIDUALS TO SAY FUCK THE BOSS ILL DO WHATS RIGHT.


Define "whats right"

Whats right according to you? the guy next door? Brian Tamaki? Helen Clark?

I think everyone will have a very different idea of "whats right"

[spudchucka]

First thing is whether the ACC demand a pound of flesh from the police in exchange for the funding. Yes, of course they do. They expect that their money will be used in the specified tasks that were agreed on when the funding was negotiated.


In a sense the drink driving operations are revenue positive for the ACC because reducing drink driving saves them money. That's good for everybody provided that they're not using their funding as a lever to influence priorities. Which I believe does happen with the LTSA.Good point about being revenue positive. The way the funding is provided does influence prioities and outcomes because the cops assigned to ACC booze busses are tasked specifically with drink drive enforcement. They only divert away from these duties when there are no other units available to attend urgent jobs.


Since there's no direct revenue from drink policing I would think the public sentiment would not be so opposed. The perceived harm of drink driving is widely accepted as being something that needs to be tightly controlled. The majority of the public accept that it is necessary.


But, I recall a few years ago there was a period when the police were doing a lot of breath testing at peak hours. The percentage of positives was minute, the public were annoyed, and even more annoyed when the police said that they had to do it because they were contracted to (I think) ACC to test so many drivers per month. People often question the sense of testing for drunks at peak traffic times, early in the morning and teh middle of the day. I've picked up a good number of spectacularly drunk drivers at these times, you never know when or where they wil pop up.

Also the fact that testing can happen anywhere and at any time enhances the perceived risk of getting caught. It makes people think before drinking & driving. Its more of a prevention strategy than a get out and catch some drunks strategy.


What concerns me about (eg) the LTSA is that the funds come with conditions.It concerns me too. What you end up with is a police service that is effectively controlled by third parties. Police must be able to operate independantly of direct outside influence, including that of central Govt. The mandate of polcie is of course set by Govt and police remain answerable to Govt but the day to day operation of the police should remain a police matter.


In essence I'm asking if the Police are calling the shots (" We , the police, have decided to have X coppers focused on drink driving. Will the ACC help fund that cost of that . You will, oh good") Or does the ACC call the shots (" We , the ACC , want to see Y hours of targeted drink drive enforcement . We will pay Z dollars for that. But you can't use the hours paid for by us for other police purposes"). As I see it it is somewhere in between the two.


Hence we have the Minister saying that the police funding is higher than ever before, and the police saying that they don't have the resources to deal with burglary and such like. Almost all the new initiatives over the last few years have been directed at traffic. People need to ask Govt why general policing is not given the same priorities.


Or even simpler, instead of the government taking it off the taxpayer, giving it to the LTSA/ACC and the latter giving it back to the police, why not have the government give it directly to the police in the first place. And have them decide how much for booze buses, how much for general duties etc.They would never go for that! Too many bureaucrats would be made redundant and end up on the dole cue, which would blow out our wonderfull unemployment figures.

[Holy Roller]

The perceived harm of drink driving is widely accepted as being something that needs to be tightly controlled. The majority of the public accept that it is necessary.

Still a mindset that a couple of boxes after work and then drive home is OK. The sober driver message seems to be getting thru. Only way to really stop it is peer pressure and random check points.
Still wont stop the silly broad who after a few drinks decides to go for a drive and is involved in an accident :angry2: (my rant over)
Must be frustrating for the officers to man check points when other crime needs to be allocated. We hear that police are understaffed all the time yet politics seem slow in anwsering this issue. Yet here in the BOP the Police have seen a huge reduction in crime and more being solved, freeing up officers for more traffic duties I presume by the number and frequency of check points.
More power to them I say, they are doing a great job. They found the driver who did the runner after my accident after a couple of hours even though the car had no plates.

[Lou Girardin]

IN THE LATE 90'S I WAS GIVEN A CHOICE BY MY EMPLOYER, COMPLY WITH AN IMMORAL REQUEST OR FACE DISMISSAL, I CHOSE DISMISSAL. PEOPLE HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS, WE ALL KNOW THE POLICE ARE REVENUE GATHERING YET THE GUY ON THE COAL FACE CONTINUES TO DO ROAD SIDE TAX COLLECTORS,ITS UP TO THESE INDIVIDUALS TO SAY FUCK THE BOSS ILL DO WHATS RIGHT. IF SPEEDING WAS THAT SERIOUS HELEN CLARK WOULD NOT HAVE PERMITTED HER DRIVER TO SPEED, AND THE POLICE WOULD HAVE A LIMITED PURSUIT POLICY.
I COULD BE WRONG ABOUT THIS BUT IN AUSTRALIA NT WAS THE ONLY STATE WITHOUT FATALITIES DURING EASTER AND THEY ARE THE ONLY STATE WITH NO SPEED LIMIT(CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG)

Quite right, it's called moral courage. The courage to stand up and question actions you know to be wrong. The UK Police rank and file aren't scared to do so. Why are ours?
An example is Gregg O'Connor of the Police Association, he said this morning that Police were relieved that the situation with unallocated files has been made public.
If they're so bloody relieved, why didn't THEY bring it to our attention sooner?

[scumdog]

Yes, of course they do. They expect that their money will be used in the specified tasks that were agreed on when the funding was negotiated.
People often question the sense of testing for drunks at peak traffic times, early in the morning and teh middle of the day. I've picked up a good number of spectacularly drunk drivers at these times, you never know when or where they wil pop up.

Also the fact that testing can happen anywhere and at any time enhances the perceived risk of getting caught. It makes people think before drinking & driving. Its more of a prevention strategy than a get out and catch some drunks strategy.
.

Too right, my mate and I got a drunk driver yesterday who had two near head-ons in the distance they travelled before we stopped them - less than 4km!

Both other motorists involved stopped and thanked us for getting the drunk off the road.

Drunk driver blew 1224mgm on the 'machine' and it was 1:20pm on a Friday arvo!!

"I've only had three jugs over a four-hour period" - Yeah right! (Maybe it was bourbon?).'

Why do they come up with pathetic stories like that? Do they think the cop is going to say "Ooops, the machine must be wrong, I'll let you go and see you later, have a good day?" :angry2:

[scumdog]

Quite right, it's called moral courage. The courage to stand up and question actions you know to be wrong. The UK Police rank and file aren't scared to do so. Why are ours?
An example is Gregg O'Connor of the Police Association, he said this morning that Police were relieved that the situation with unallocated files has been made public.
If they're so bloody relieved, why didn't THEY bring it to our attention sooner?

How soon was 'sooner' Lou? 1 file? 5 files?

Do you go to the media every time your 'boss' does something you don't like/believe in/think provides a poor service?

Don't feed the trolls!! :lol:

[Lou Girardin]

How soon was 'sooner' Lou? 1 file? 5 files?

Do you go to the media every time your 'boss' does something you don't like/believe in/think provides a poor service?

Don't feed the trolls!! :lol:

Ok. How long would it take for rank and file cops to get concerned. One year, two, ten?
As for my boss, I always have the option of resigning.

[Pixie]

[QUOTE=Lou Girardin]Quite right, it's called moral courage. The courage to stand up and question actions you know to be wrong. The UK Police rank and file aren't scared to do so. Why are ours?
Because they are chosen for their low intelligence and compliance.
Did you know an alarm goes off in Robinson's office if a cop has an original thought?

[Pixie]

I don't think I ever got a satisfactory answer to the question I posed some time ago:
"Why do we need an LTSA?" (or LTNZ or whatever acronym is current - it will no doubt change again before long)
Can anyone show convincingly that the LTNZ is more effective and more efficient than the old government departments which used to have its responsibilities?

(Just as I need convincing that NZQA has materially improved the state of education in this country...)
The road toll is shit
more men die of prostate cancer every year than die on the roads
why not throw some money at that for a change?
Of couse,no ones thought of a way to make revenue out of that one
and it might require a cop to stick a finger up some ones arse.

[spudchucka]

"Pixie", seems an appropriate name for someone that isn't yet a fully fledged Troll. :shake:

[inlinefour]

The road toll is shit
more men die of prostate cancer every year than die on the roads
why not throw some money at that for a change?
Of couse,no ones thought of a way to make revenue out of that one
and it might require a cop to stick a finger up some ones arse.

Pixie, IF THERE WAS NOT SO MANY STPID FAKING CUNTS ON THE BLOODY ROAD THEN MAYBE LESS REVENUE WOULD BE GAINED????
Really what sort of farking lame comment was that? "Oh, officer if you are going to make me pay for that ticket, then I'll hate all coppers for ever" <---------about as lame as that statement I think.
If more men got themselves checked for prostate cancer earlier, like they SHOULD, then less would die. Bit like your comment, its easier to bury one's head in the sand instead??? :killingme

[Pixie]

Pixie, IF THERE WAS NOT SO MANY STPID FAKING CUNTS ON THE BLOODY ROAD THEN MAYBE LESS REVENUE WOULD BE GAINED????
Really what sort of farking lame comment was that? "Oh, officer if you are going to make me pay for that ticket, then I'll hate all coppers for ever" <---------about as lame as that statement I think.
If more men got themselves checked for prostate cancer earlier, like they SHOULD, then less would die. Bit like your comment, its easier to bury one's head in the sand instead??? :killingme

Obviously any suggestion that cops are tax collectors hits a very raw nerve

[RDJ]

I appreciate this may be trawling a red herring across the bows, or should I say the forks, of forum readers, but... at this stage there is little benefit from scrutinizing men for prostate cancer, nothing like the benefit to women from checking for cervical cancer.

The U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, reviewed all major previous studies of PSA (prostate specific antigen) tests and another common screening tool, the digital rectal exam (no, I'm not going to explain further :-) ). In summary, while screening can detect prostate cancer in its early stages, there is no evidence that screening led to fewer prostate cancer deaths but that it can lead to unnecessary treatment, for small cancers that did not necessarily pose a danger to patients; when treatment could also lead to serious side effects, or even death. As a result, the task force said "there is no way of determining whether the benefits of screening outweighed the possible harms."

[inlinefour]

Obviously any suggestion that cops are tax collectors hits a very raw nerve

But the mere suggestion of that is just showing how ignorant you are...

[inlinefour]

I appreciate this may be trawling a red herring across the bows, or should I say the forks, of forum readers, but... at this stage there is little benefit from scrutinizing men for prostate cancer, nothing like the benefit to women from checking for cervical cancer.

The U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, reviewed all major previous studies of PSA (prostate specific antigen) tests and another common screening tool, the digital rectal exam (no, I'm not going to explain further :-) ). In summary, while screening can detect prostate cancer in its early stages, there is no evidence that screening led to fewer prostate cancer deaths but that it can lead to unnecessary treatment, for small cancers that did not necessarily pose a danger to patients; when treatment could also lead to serious side effects, or even death. As a result, the task force said "there is no way of determining whether the benefits of screening outweighed the possible harms."

If prostate cancer is detected and treated there is a much higher chance of survival. The reason why its such a large problem is that males fail to go to their GP and deny that there is a problem. Hence the problem is worse, if men took a proactive stance and did get screened or knew the initial symptoms are (does RDJ know what they are, yes I do, look at my place of work...) and do something about it the incidents of prostate cancer would reduce (common sense?).
In summary guys, get to know what the initial signs and symptoms and be prepared to do something about it. If people think that a finger up the arse is worse that dying of prostate cancer then those individuals have a few farking screws loose...

[spudchucka]

Obviously any suggestion that cops are tax collectors hits a very raw nerve
Obviously clear evidence of an apprentice troll hard at work.

[RDJ]

Dear Honda

Unfortunately, the medical evidence is against the fact that mass screening of the male population at or above a certain age will result in a reduction in deaths.

Fortunately, the evidence is firmly in favor of the fact that if men at risk / with symptoms or signs present early for checking and treatment, there will be a reduction in (preventable, early) deaths from Ca prostate.

I don't think we're disagreeing here.

Best regards

[inlinefour]

Dear Honda

Unfortunately, the medical evidence is against the fact that mass screening of the male population at or above a certain age will result in a reduction in deaths.

Fortunately, the evidence is firmly in favor of the fact that if men at risk / with symptoms or signs present early for checking and treatment, there will be a reduction in (preventable, early) deaths from Ca prostate.

I don't think we're disagreeing here.

Best regards

But the statement from the US in your previous post was not quite correct either. Its a well know fact that its more of a problem and I've allready pointed out why...
Besides I am more interested in your comment regarding the Police being revenue gatherers. If people knew how to follow the law then no tickets would be issued. The problem is not the Police, revenue gathering, or legislation, but actually the people who are breaking the law :whistle:

[Jackrat]

I appreciate this may be trawling a red herring across the bows, or should I say the forks, of forum readers, but... at this stage there is little benefit from scrutinizing men for prostate cancer, nothing like the benefit to women from checking for cervical cancer.

The U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, reviewed all major previous studies of PSA (prostate specific antigen) tests and another common screening tool, the digital rectal exam (no, I'm not going to explain further :-) ). In summary, while screening can detect prostate cancer in its early stages, there is no evidence that screening led to fewer prostate cancer deaths but that it can lead to unnecessary treatment, for small cancers that did not necessarily pose a danger to patients; when treatment could also lead to serious side effects, or even death. As a result, the task force said "there is no way of determining whether the benefits of screening outweighed the possible harms."


Q.
Why is it called a "cervical smear"??

A.
Because if it was called a "cunt scrape" no woman would get one.

Errr, carry on :Punk:

[inlinefour]

Q.
Why is it called a "cervical smear"??

A.
Because if it was called a "cunt scrape" no woman would get one.

Errr, carry on :Punk:

Well done, well done. :whistle:

[inlinefour]

I wish I could lock this thread because its turned into a complete pansy whinging bitch session lately. :confused:

[scumdog]

I wish I could lock this thread because its turned into a complete pansy whinging bitch session lately. :confused:

You are so right Mr H. but then the pansy whinging bitch type people are good targets for trolling. :msn-wink:

[Lou Girardin]

I appreciate this may be trawling a red herring across the bows, or should I say the forks, of forum readers, but... at this stage there is little benefit from scrutinizing men for prostate cancer, nothing like the benefit to women from checking for cervical cancer.

The U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, reviewed all major previous studies of PSA (prostate specific antigen) tests and another common screening tool, the digital rectal exam (no, I'm not going to explain further :-) ). In summary, while screening can detect prostate cancer in its early stages, there is no evidence that screening led to fewer prostate cancer deaths but that it can lead to unnecessary treatment, for small cancers that did not necessarily pose a danger to patients; when treatment could also lead to serious side effects, or even death. As a result, the task force said "there is no way of determining whether the benefits of screening outweighed the possible harms."

This crap is the same argument our health authorities use. I, for one, would rather have an unecessary op, than die. If men had proper lobby groups as women do, this kind of nonsense would be instantly dismissed.

[Lou Girardin]

I wish I could lock this thread because its turned into a complete pansy whinging bitch session lately. :confused:

Stop reading it then

[Lou Girardin]

I just saw a recruitment article about the Police, it appears that there are no minimum qualifications for entry and of those accepted the failure rate is just 2%.
Even for the MOT you had to have School Cert as a minimum and a drivers licence.
If they became a bit more discriminating they might not have to face the image problems they currently have.

[scumdog]

I just saw a recruitment article about the Police, it appears that there are no minimum qualifications for entry and of those accepted the failure rate is just 2%.
Even for the MOT you had to have School Cert as a minimum and a drivers licence.
If they became a bit more discriminating they might not have to face the image problems they currently have.

No School Cert anymore Lou and drivers licence was easier to get back then ($400 instant licences not withstanding)

Bottom line is: They need more staff but won't up the pay/conditions to get the people MOST likely to be the right ones as opposed as to what they can get at budget prices.

[Lou Girardin]

No School Cert anymore Lou and drivers licence was easier to get back then ($400 instant licences not withstanding)

Bottom line is: They need more staff but won't up the pay/conditions to get the people MOST likely to be the right ones as opposed as to what they can get at budget prices.

OK. NCEA then. Which I guess is the same as no qualification.
Granted, the conditions are crap. (Imagine having everyone pissed off at you all the time.) But the pay's not bad. You start on 45 - 50 grand? Have ticket immunity and get to wear a uniform and thrash someone elses car to death.
Where's the problem?

[Wolf]

OK. NCEA then. Which I guess is the same as no qualification.
Granted, the conditions are crap. (Imagine having everyone pissed off at you all the time.) But the pay's not bad. You start on 45 - 50 grand? Have ticket immunity and get to wear a uniform and thrash someone elses car to death.
Where's the problem?
Answered your own question, you have.

[Ixion]

...
Where's the problem?

Sergeants ?

[scumdog]

OK. NCEA then. Which I guess is the same as no qualification.
Granted, the conditions are crap. (Imagine having everyone pissed off at you all the time.) But the pay's not bad. You start on 45 - 50 grand? Have ticket immunity and get to wear a uniform and thrash someone elses car to death.
Where's the problem?

To add to the others comments: "The politicians and the media" a quote I heard.

And the "ticket immunity" is not a given for 100% of the time.

[Lou Girardin]

To add to the others comments: "The politicians and the media" a quote I heard.

And the "ticket immunity" is not a given for 100% of the time.

Sure you've got the HP, which means "hanging paper".
But you never used to be so disliked. What's changed?
Oh that's right. The public perception that it's all about cash for the Govt. Plus the fact that the MOT used to do the dirty work.
Right or wrong, that's a perception you have to change.

[scumdog]

Sure you've got the HP, which means "hanging paper".
But you never used to be so disliked. What's changed?
Oh that's right. The public perception that it's all about cash for the Govt. Plus the fact that the MOT used to do the dirty work.
Right or wrong, that's a perception you have to change.

About 13 or more years since the merger and NOW we get that perception? A lot of it is media driven, after all there was not the same furore as little as two years ago and nothing has changed THAT much in those couple of years, anybody got any other sensible (not WINJA type rants) as to WHAT has caused this change?

[Ixion]

About 13 or more years since the merger and NOW we get that perception? A lot of it is media driven, after all there was not the same furore as little as two years ago and nothing has changed THAT much in those couple of years, anybody got any other sensible (not WINJA type rants) as to WHAT has caused this change?

Removal of the discretion factor. Which was done about 2 years ago. Previously even HP could "let it go" if it was a bit over the limit, but otherwise safe. So if a driver did get pinged he/she usually felt at least a bit guilty. But nowdays thousands (lliterally) of motorists are getting stopped and more or less being accused of being murderers becuase their speedo's crept up to 111k or thereabouts. They look at what they were doing, think about it , ask themselves "was I actually dangerous ?" and decide that "No - it wasn't" .I'm not talking about the "speed demons" here who always thought that. I'm talking grandma and grandpa. Add in the revelations that the cops have a quota to meet, and loss of respect is a certainty.

Add to that that all the funding going to HP has left general duties running on a shoe string (despite the fact that they are the ones the public see as the real police). Need any more ?

I also think that the police badly need another advertising agency. Their advertisments in the last few years have actually generated a lot of negativity.

To fix it ? Dead easy. Tell every cop (including - especially - HP) that they have some discretion. Give more money / manpower to the general duties section.

[scumdog]

Removal of the discretion factor. Which was done about 2 years ago. Previously even HP could "let it go" if it was a bit over the limit, but otherwise safe.
To fix it ? Dead easy. Tell every cop (including - especially - HP) that they have some discretion. Give more money / manpower to the general duties section.

Not that easy, ACC wants "proof" that the money they are fronting for "road safety" is being spent on exactly that, tickets are that "proof" hence the "quota' i.e. a link to the hours allegedly spent on traffic work.

Discretion is still there but if a traffic guy is struggling to meet his 'quota'?....

I still flash headlights/wave finger/stop and rant even today as well as 'ticket'

BTW Why does somebody moan about a ticket for 111kph but NOBODY whimpers about a blood/alcohol level of 444mg?
It's the same percentage over and theoreticly (sp) one would have thought the argument "111kph isn't making me any more dangerous than 100kph" should have a parrallel one for drink-driving but there is a thunderous silence in that department.

[The Tazman]

Man you guys are fucked if you think we can operate without the police.
Yes they are inefficent, but they are still there.
Dont blame the force, blame the system - cops arent robots.
:angry2: Infact fuck you guys who think cops are all wankers, some of them are ok guys/girls. Id rather pay a cop, then a bum who cant be bothered getting a job, a crim in prison or some bludger who will claim for 'back pain' while on holiday in Fiji.
1000's of people in NZ who do fuck all for NZ, and you want to bitch about some cop who caught u breaking the law.
Ive been in plenty of situations where cops have done a no show, but as i said before its the systems fault.
And if i saw a cop in a fight gettin kickd, i would jump in to help em out - thats some one brother/sister guys

Well said avgas

I think that allot of people have forgotten that the police are just like you and me getting up and going to work. They have to go by rules and regulations the same as we do at work. If they came to work for or with you and started doing what they wanted rather than how it was supposed to be done you would give them a warning. There rules dictate they give you the same, which can mean a ticket, fine or court.

Yes there are some bad ones but that is the same in any job you go to. How many of you have worked somewhere that has at least one idiot???? If you look at the ratio of idiots to staff in that job then apply the same to the police force then you will have some idiots!!!!!!!!!!

Remember that it is the government that makes the laws!! and who put the government in?? the majority of the country!!

I could go on but I think that will do for my 2 cents worth

Stay happy and look out for each other

[Lou Girardin]

BTW Why does somebody moan about a ticket for 111kph but NOBODY whimpers about a blood/alcohol level of 444mg?
It's the same percentage over and theoreticly (sp) one would have thought the argument "111kph isn't making me any more dangerous than 100kph" should have a parrallel one for drink-driving but there is a thunderous silence in that department.

There used to be 20 odd years ago. But it's drawing a long bow to correlate the two offences.
The fact is that people have travelled safely for years at 110 - 120 on the open road. That is not the speed that people kill themselves doing unless there are other, greater, causative factors. And we've been told that 85% of accidents happen below the speed limit as well.
The drop in public regard for cops tracks the gradual increase in persecution of drivers.
Remember when cameras were introduced? We were told that they'd only target the 85 percentile offender. Then the tolerance was dropped to 10 k's over. Reason = the Govt got a taste for the revenue and wanted more.
Laser guns were introduced to target the dangerous speeder using heavy traffic as a shield, now they ping drivers in the Victoria tunnel at 61 k's.
Ticket quotas for cops were introduced when it became apparent that camera revenue was falling. Now you guys write more tickets than the cameras.
Then you get Gregg Murphy stating, in an article in a Sunday paper, some very pertinent ideas about the road toll and for dealing with young drivers.
John Kelly dismisses him with some puerile comment about speed being the problem.
We don't like being treated as cash cows or having our intelligence insulted.
The balls in your bosses court now, but I don't think Robbie is up to the job.

[Ixion]

..

BTW Why does somebody moan about a ticket for 111kph but NOBODY whimpers about a blood/alcohol level of 444mg?
It's the same percentage over and theoreticly (sp) one would have thought the argument "111kph isn't making me any more dangerous than 100kph" should have a parrallel one for drink-driving but there is a thunderous silence in that department.

Because John Public by and large accepts the 400mg (or whatever it is) level as reasonable. And if he gets caught over it, will be pissed off (good pun there), but feel guilty about it.

John P has found that he can have a couple of beers, or a glass or two of wine, and still be OK on the screening test. Being a reasonable guy he figures that any more than that actually is "knocking it back a bit" and doesn't have too much sympathy for someone who complains when they get caught over it. He thinks that the 400mg figure shouldn't be a problem to a reasonable , lawabiding person

But the 111 is often under circumstances that he doesn't feel are reasonable. He wasn't caning it not even intentionally speeding. Light traffic, good road etc etc. He comes away with a ticket and thinks that the limit is a problem for a reasonable law abiding person

If the blood level were reduced to 100mg I think you'd see the same complaints.

If the discretionary limit was raised to (say) 130kph ,ie ticket at 130 regardless but 110 to 130 it's the cop's call on whether it was risky (and the cop explains *why* he thinks it was dangerous) , then I think the level of complaint would drop to similar to the breath test limit.

Bottom line is that if John P thinks the rules are reasonable he doesn't bitch (too much) and doesn't support those who do. If he feels they're unreasonable he will.

So, John P feels the present *policing* of the speed limit is unreasonable . Not the limit himself, surveys tend to show that he goes along with that. And he's all in favour of the police cracking down on "real speeding". But, too often he's getting pinged for what he sees as technical offences not "real speeding"

Either he's right, and the police need to review their position. Or he's wrong and the police need to show him (and convince him) that that 111kph really was dangerous.At present he feels that the police aren't giving him a fair break.

I think maybe Mr Scumdog and Mr Spudchucka are able to exercise a bit more discretion than is allowed their counterparts in the big smoke.

[inlinefour]

Stop reading it then

I take it then that you like to carry on like that then? :whistle:

[spudchucka]

I just saw a recruitment article about the Police, it appears that there are no minimum qualifications for entry and of those accepted the failure rate is just 2%.
Even for the MOT you had to have School Cert as a minimum and a drivers licence.
If they became a bit more discriminating they might not have to face the image problems they currently have.
What we need is higher unemployment and shitty working conditions in the private sector then people would look at things like police as being a viable option. At the moment there are so many better options why would anyone want to get assaulted, spat at, abused, risk their lives etc etc for a pathetic $42,000.

[sAsLEX]

What we need is higher unemployment and shitty working conditions in the private sector then people would look at things like police as being a viable option. At the moment there are so many better options why would anyone want to get assaulted, spat at, abused, risk their lives etc etc for a pathetic $42,000.

saw a cop in taupo who had all the toys. Green Mufti wagon with all the radar and even a dog!!! Now that would be an alright job, the jack of all trades cop in a smaller country area! But being sent into South Auckland for 40k, nup not for me.

[WINJA]

What we need is higher unemployment and shitty working conditions in the private sector then people would look at things like police as being a viable option. At the moment there are so many better options why would anyone want to get assaulted, spat at, abused, risk their lives etc etc for a pathetic $42,000.
$42000 , FUCK THAT MUCH .I SUPOSE YOU GET PAID WHAT YOUR WORTH, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT GET ANOTHER JOB.

[inlinefour]

$42000 , FUCK THAT MUCH .I SUPOSE YOU GET PAID WHAT YOUR WORTH, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT GET ANOTHER JOB.

I guess someone who has never worked a day of his life would not be actually qualified to have an opinion regarding pay and worth... :shake:

[WINJA]

I guess someone who has never worked a day of his life would not be actually qualified to have an opinion regarding pay and worth... :shake:
LUCKILY IM A HARD WORKER AND PAY TAXES AND HAVE MY OWN BUSINESS AND IM AN EMPLOYER AND A LANDLORD SO YEAH IM QUALIFIED. YOU SOUND LIKE A FUCKWIT HONDA I BET YOUR A NOBODY IN A DEAD END JOB

[inlinefour]

LUCKILY IM A HARD WORKER AND PAY TAXES AND HAVE MY OWN BUSINESS AND IM AN EMPLOYER AND A LANDLORD SO YEAH IM QUALIFIED. YOU SOUND LIKE A FUCKWIT HONDA I BET YOUR A NOBODY IN A DEAD END JOB

But probably not. I suspect that your full of shyte, have the personality of a dyslexic maggot and generally talk that much bullshit, that even you believe your own lies...

But then again :whocares: not me, I'm just sitting here laughing at you like everyone else :killingme

[Lou Girardin]

But then again :whocares: not me, I'm just sitting here laughing at you like everyone else :killingme

With him, at him, at least we're having a laugh.

[inlinefour]

With him, at him, at least we're having a laugh.

Cheers :cool:

[scumdog]

LUCKILY IM A HARD WORKER AND PAY TAXES AND HAVE MY OWN BUSINESS AND IM AN EMPLOYER AND A LANDLORD SO YEAH IM QUALIFIED. YOU SOUND LIKE A FUCKWIT HONDA I BET YOUR A NOBODY IN A DEAD END JOB

Oh c'mon, you expect us to believe you do all that from a loony-bin? Hell, you're so full of shit!!!

Still, you make us laugh :lol:

[scumdog]

$42000 , IF YOU DONT LIKE IT GET ANOTHER JOB.

Yes, I think that's what Spuddy said in case you han't noticed.

[inlinefour]

Oh c'mon, you expect us to believe you do all that from a loony-bin? Hell, you're so full of shit!!!

Still, you make us laugh :lol:

That if he actually knew what I do for a job, he might not put his feet so completely into the....

[T.I.E]

2)the member of the police may ask the person for help of any kind only if it is, in the cirumstances a reasonable necessity.

so just run past te police with ya fingers in ya ears so you can't hear them asking for help.

they have to ask for it.

but besides that they are right their image in the publics eye sucks big time. you can't protect your equpiment or possesions from being stolen by force. but when will the police turn up.

everyone needs to study the laws or legalities of a normal citizen and what you can actually do.

summary offences act, tresspass act, privacy act, bill of rights, aswell as many others.



have a look.

[scumdog]

2)the member of the police may ask the person for help of any kind only if it is, in the cirumstances a reasonable necessity.

so just run past te police with ya fingers in ya ears so you can't hear them asking for help.

they have to ask for it.

but besides that they are right their image in the publics eye sucks big time. you can't protect your equpiment or possesions from being stolen by force. but when will the police turn up.

everyone needs to study the laws or legalities of a normal citizen and what you can actually do.

summary offences act, tresspass act, privacy act, bill of rights, aswell as many others.



have a look.

What the hell happened here????? :confused: :spudwhat:

[Indoo]

If the discretionary limit was raised to (say) 130kph ,ie ticket at 130 regardless but 110 to 130 it's the cop's call on whether it was risky (and the cop explains *why* he thinks it was dangerous) , then I think the level of complaint would drop to similar to the breath test limit.

Thats just bullshit, all that would mean is that the defacto speed limit would raise to 130kmhs and anyone getting ticketed under that limit would bitch and whine that the cops were unfairly ticketing him. No doubt people travelling at 131kmh would kick up a hell of a stink as well if the Police dared stop them.

Not to mention the fact that the fatality rate would go through the roof, cages and bikes would still make the same ratio of stupid errors only have less chance to correct themselves and have a guarantee on death upon colllision.


So, John P feels the present *policing* of the speed limit is unreasonable . Not the limit himself, surveys tend to show that he goes along with that. And he's all in favour of the police cracking down on "real speeding". But, too often he's getting pinged for what he sees as technical offences not "real speeding"

Yeh because John P is the greatest driver on earth, its safe for him to drive at high speed becaues hes so fkin fantastic. Hes not a real speeder its only the other drivers eh.



Either he's right, and the police need to review their position. Or he's wrong and the police need to show him (and convince him) that that 111kph really was dangerous.At present he feels that the police aren't giving him a fair break.

The speed limit is 100kmh, giving someone a ticket for 11kmh over is wanky but needed in a way as well. If they didn't the defacto speed limit would raise higher and higher.

However that said the 'contact' ratio should be reduced and not as it often is be based on solely on speed. While excessive speed can make an otherwise avoidable crash avoidable ,attention should also be paid to poor driving which creates the possibility of a crash as well.

[scumdog]

Thats just bullshit, all that would mean is that the defacto speed limit would raise to 130kmhs and anyone getting ticketed under that limit would bitch and whine that the cops were unfairly ticketing him. No doubt people travelling at 131kmh would kick up a hell of a stink as well if the Police dared stop them.

Yeh because John P is the greatest driver on earth, its safe for him to drive at high speed becaues hes so fkin fantastic. Hes not a real speeder its only the other drivers eh.

The speed limit is 100kmh, giving someone a ticket for 11kmh over is wanky but needed in a way as well. If they didn't the defacto speed limit would raise higher and higher.

However that said the 'contact' ratio should be reduced and not as it often is be based on solely on speed. While excessive speed can make an otherwise avoidable crash avoidable ,attention should also be paid to poor driving which creates the possibility of a crash as well.

Good points there, a few years ago almost nobody got a ticket for 120kph or less due to "discretion" and wouldn't you know, the 'de facto speed limit WAS 120kph!!!

Most people would almost admit to being a poor lover than a poor driver- true, when was the last time somebody unprompted said "Shit, my drivings hopeless, I'm a below average driver at least"?

Pull up somebody for one offence and what is a common response? - you should be 'picking on' drivers who XXXXX (put in whatever offence that comes to your head) as if the offence they committed is less serious somehow??

And finally we have not yet developed that great device I have mentioned in other threads - the 'stupidometer' so apprehending other driving offences is a little harder than detecting speeding.

[Lou Girardin]

Good points there, a few years ago almost nobody got a ticket for 120kph or less due to "discretion" and wouldn't you know, the 'de facto speed limit WAS 120kph!!!

Most people would almost admit to being a poor lover than a poor driver- true, when was the last time somebody unprompted said "Shit, my drivings hopeless, I'm a below average driver at least"?

Pull up somebody for one offence and what is a common response? - you should be 'picking on' drivers who XXXXX (put in whatever offence that comes to your head) as if the offence they committed is less serious somehow??

And finally we have not yet developed that great device I have mentioned in other threads - the 'stupidometer' so apprehending other driving offences is a little harder than detecting speeding.

But no one went past a cop at 120.
People don't admit to being crap drivers, but periodic retesting would put it beyond doubt.
Your last point is the crux of the enforcement problem. Speeding is easy to detect and lucrative. The other offences are the true killers.

BTW The Northern Comms centre have done it again. They 'lost' a 111 call, they didn't respond till a second call 1 hr 20 mins later. Meanwhile, a teenager was beaten to a pulp.
Give these people a foot and a gun and they're the best marksmen in the world.

[scumdog]

But no one went past a cop at 120.

People don't admit to being crap drivers, but periodic retesting would put it beyond doubt.
Your last point is the crux of the enforcement problem. Speeding is easy to detect and lucrative. The other offences are the true killers.

BTW The Northern Comms centre have done it again. They 'lost' a 111 call, they didn't respond till a second call 1 hr 20 mins later. Meanwhile, a teenager was beaten to a pulp.
Give these people a foot and a gun and they're the best marksmen in the world.

(a)They still don't!!

(b)I agree, need tougher penalties for failing to give way, crossing 'no passing' lines etc - hell $150 ticket for a potentially lethal breach of rode code!! Not good enough.

(c)Don't work part time for the Otago Daily Times do you? :whistle:

[inlinefour]

(a)They still don't!!

(b)I agree, need tougher penalties for failing to give way, crossing 'no passing' lines etc - hell $150 ticket for a potentially lethal breach of rode code!! Not good enough.

(c)Don't work part time for the Otago Daily Times do you? :whistle:

B/ yes of course, max them out then maybe people will follow the rules/law.

C/ probably... :whistle:

[Pixie]

This crap is the same argument our health authorities use. I, for one, would rather have an unecessary op, than die. If men had proper lobby groups as women do, this kind of nonsense would be instantly dismissed.

True.Please note Tamihere's latest gaff;describing how our Feminazi govt.throws money at wimins issues but mens health isn't on the radar.

[Pixie]

[QUOTE=
The speed limit is 100kmh, giving someone a ticket for 11kmh over is wanky but needed in a way as well. If they didn't the defacto speed limit would raise higher and higher.
.[/QUOTE]

Bullshit. But from an objective point of view it's interesting to see how the propaganda inculcates itself amongst the plebs.

[Lou Girardin]

(a)They still don't!!

(b)I agree, need tougher penalties for failing to give way, crossing 'no passing' lines etc - hell $150 ticket for a potentially lethal breach of rode code!! Not good enough.

(c)Don't work part time for the Otago Daily Times do you? :whistle:

What's with the ODT?

[idb]

And finally we have not yet developed that great device I have mentioned in other threads - the 'stupidometer' so apprehending other driving offences is a little harder than detecting speeding.
Maybe not but I make sure that I only own vehicles made of a very rare substance called cleveronium.
I notice that anyone not in or on vehicles made of this substance are unskilled, unco-ordinated idiots. In fact most other vehicles seem to be made of cretinium.
And the trouble is, I think my cars and bikes are the only vehicles in the world made of cleveronium and I'm the only one who drives them.
Explains a lot I reckon. :msn-wink:

[Pixie]

Who heard the race commentator (moto GP I think) describe a rider as "riding his bike like a brocking bunco" last night?

[Ixion]

The speed limit is 100kmh, giving someone a ticket for 11kmh over is wanky but needed in a way as well. If they didn't the defacto speed limit would raise higher and higher.
.

Bullshit. But from an objective point of view it's interesting to see how the propaganda inculcates itself amongst the plebs.

Well, it may not be wanky, if 111 is unwise. My objection is to the automatic 111 = greater than magic number = ticket.

Sometimes people should get a ticket for 101 kph.

That's what I object to about the way the speed limit is presented. Lower than magic number and you are completely safe. Higher than magic number and you are automatically dangerous. Both statements are nonsense.

In theory it is possible for a cop to give a ticket for driving at an unsafe speed even if it is less than the speed limit. I've never heard of it happening, doubt it has ever been done, but I see instances every day where such tickets should be given out.

Every day I see people driving at dangerous speeds BUT WITHIN THE SPEED LIMIT. And they'll never learn until they crash and kill someone. The law is happy for them to continue driving dangerously. And I sometimes see someone driving at more than the speed limit but quite safely. Yet the law says the man driving dangerously is OK , and the man drivng safely isn't. What nonsense.

[Pixie]

Well, it may not be wanky, if 111 is unwise. My objection is to the automatic 111 = greater than magic number = ticket.

Sometimes people should get a ticket for 101 kph.

That's what I object to about the way the speed limit is presented. Lower than magic number and you are completely safe. Higher than magic number and you are automatically dangerous. Both statements are nonsense.

In theory it is possible for a cop to give a ticket for driving at an unsafe speed even if it is less than the speed limit. I've never heard of it happening, doubt it has ever been done, but I see instances every day where such tickets should be given out.

Every day I see people driving at dangerous speeds BUT WITHIN THE SPEED LIMIT. And they'll never learn until they crash and kill someone. The law is happy for them to continue driving dangerously. And I sometimes see someone driving at more than the speed limit but quite safely. Yet the law says the man driving dangerously is OK , and the man drivng safely isn't. What nonsense.

I agree entirely,but as one of our cop friends said earlier in this thread"failure to indicate is chickenshit" meaning that it is unimportant.We can only expect that attitude to result in easy tickets (speeding) and the rest in the too hard category.(or the too taxing of a cop's intellectual faculties)

[spudchucka]

That's what I object to about the way the speed limit is presented. Lower than magic number and you are completely safe. Higher than magic number and you are automatically dangerous. Both statements are nonsense.If you can put aside the LTSA anti speed advertising for a moment and look it simply as being a speed limit and a tolerance applied to the enforcement of that speed limit, then to me it seems completely reasonable. Everyone knows the prescribe limits that will incur an infringement notice.

Its only when you apply the arguement that once you step over the magic number then you become dangerous that it seems stupid. And yes Lou, before you point out the obvious, we have the LTSA and police mega-brains to thank for all that advertising

If you look at it objectively, without emotions then it is quite reasonable and 100% transparent.


In theory it is possible for a cop to give a ticket for driving at an unsafe speed even if it is less than the speed limit. I've never heard of it happening, doubt it has ever been done, but I see instances every day where such tickets should be given out.You haven't heard of it because;
1: You aren't a cop, (as far as I know).
2: The media don't report it.


Every day I see people driving at dangerous speeds BUT WITHIN THE SPEED LIMIT. And they'll never learn until they crash and kill someone.Backing out of a driveway can be one of the most dangerous things you can do in a car and that usually at abou 10 kph. But as you say, people don't give it a thought until they bowl the neighbours kid off their bike.

[Ixion]

If you can put aside the LTSA anti speed advertising for a moment and look it simply as being a speed limit and a tolerance applied to the enforcement of that speed limit, then to me it seems completely reasonable. Everyone knows the prescribe limits that will incur an infringement notice.


I haveno problem with the police applying it. Same as parking tickets. X minutes, more than that costs money. 111 kph costs money. What does annoy me is the extension that more than 110 kph is *always* dangerous (and then the logic jump to less than 100kph is *never* dangerous)



You haven't heard of it because;
1: You aren't a cop, (as far as I know).
2: The media don't report it.


No , not a cop. If you mean that cops do ticket for excessive speed under the speed limit, then I wish they would publicise the fact. Everybody would be safer if the message could be got through to J Public that what matters most is whether the speed is safe in the given circumstances or not . And often 100kph isn't (nor is 50kph often, either)

[Wolf]

If you mean that cops do ticket for excessive speed under the speed limit, then I wish they would publicise the fact.
But that would confuse the poor widdle cage-dwivers who would see the publicity and get totally confused as to what speed they're allowed to do.

Letters would get written to the edtors of all the papers (presumeably they must know someone who can write the letter for them) complaining that the cops are running around ticketing people for "dangerous driving" at below the legal limit.

Also ACC would get their undies in a knot because the revelation will be making a lie of their simplistic "all those filthy speeders are killing us" ads.

[Lou Girardin]

The charge wouldn't be excessive speed, more like speed/dangerous or careless driving.

[scumdog]

What's with the ODT?

If you read it you would know what I was on about - and if the ODT did the same hatchet job on people that sold motorbikes I would hear the screams from here!!

[denill]

If you can put aside the LTSA anti speed advertising for a moment and look it simply as being a speed limit and a tolerance applied to the enforcement of that speed limit, then to me it seems completely reasonable. Everyone knows the prescribe limits that will incur an infringement notice.

Its only when you apply the arguement that once you step over the magic number then you become dangerous that it seems stupid. And yes Lou, before you point out the obvious, we have the LTSA and police mega-brains to thank for all that advertising

If you look at it objectively, without emotions then it is quite reasonable and 100% transparent.

You haven't heard of it because;
1: You aren't a cop, (as far as I know).
2: The media don't report it.

Backing out of a driveway can be one of the most dangerous things you can do in a car and that usually at abou 10 kph. But as you say, people don't give it a thought until they bowl the neighbours kid off their bike.

After 45 bloody pages this thread is starting to make sense.......
Referring to the post quoted and the posts immediately subsequent to it.

That is - that speed per se does not hurt. What does hurt is bad/stupid driving on the part of one or more persons.

Forget about the artificial and arbitrarily imposed all enveloping speed limits.
Whoever said "the law is an ass". will get no argument from me............

[inlinefour]

That the 111 system is in the spotlight again. A telephonist failed to pass on an urget call and get some action in the way of Police assistance, and some poor turkey is a gonner as a result. This was not a Police officer's fault, but was human error. Sad that it had to happen, but they are keen to learn from it and improve their stanards to avoid it.
For all those people bitching aboout the law and the rules and the speed limit, have a cup of this and stop using the public roads if you can't stick to the limit and get caught.

[Lou Girardin]

That the 111 system is in the spotlight again. A telephonist failed to pass on an urget call and get some action in the way of Police assistance, and some poor turkey is a gonner as a result. This was not a Police officer's fault, but was human error. Sad that it had to happen, but they are keen to learn from it and improve their stanards to avoid it.
For all those people bitching aboout the law and the rules and the speed limit, have a cup of this and stop using the public roads if you can't stick to the limit and get caught.

Yeah, whatever you do don't complain. Robbie's upset and George is threatening to resign.

BTW How long does it take for them to improve their standards. People are getting hurt.

[WINJA]

Oh c'mon, you expect us to believe you do all that from a loony-bin? Hell, you're so full of shit!!!

Still, you make us laugh :lol:
YOU MAY THINK IM FULL OF SHIT AND THATS OK, BUT ID TAKE A BET YOU ARE AN ALCOHOLIC WIFE BEATER, COPS ARE SOME OF THE MOST DISTURBED PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET YOU WERE PROBABLY PICKED ON AS A KID SO YOU GOT A JOB THAT GIVES YOU A POWER TRIP. I KNOW YOUR TYPE.

[inlinefour]

YOU MAY THINK IM FULL OF SHIT AND THATS OK, BUT ID TAKE A BET YOU ARE AN ALCOHOLIC WIFE BEATER, COPS ARE SOME OF THE MOST DISTURBED PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET YOU WERE PROBABLY PICKED ON AS A KID SO YOU GOT A JOB THAT GIVES YOU A POWER TRIP. I KNOW YOUR TYPE.


... than some one who knows it all. That is some one, like you, who thinks he knows it all. Might be time for a drink winja.

[scumdog]

YOU MAY THINK IM FULL OF SHIT AND THATS OK, BUT ID TAKE A BET YOU ARE AN ALCOHOLIC WIFE BEATER, COPS ARE SOME OF THE MOST DISTURBED PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET YOU WERE PROBABLY PICKED ON AS A KID SO YOU GOT A JOB THAT GIVES YOU A POWER TRIP. I KNOW YOUR TYPE.

Haha!! That is SO funny once again WINJA!! :lol:

It is me to a "T", just ask anybody that has met me, - I almost think YOU must have met me??

Maybe when you got that 111kph ticket? :killingme :killingme

[Lou Girardin]

YOU MAY THINK IM FULL OF SHIT AND THATS OK, BUT ID TAKE A BET YOU ARE AN ALCOHOLIC WIFE BEATER, COPS ARE SOME OF THE MOST DISTURBED PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET YOU WERE PROBABLY PICKED ON AS A KID SO YOU GOT A JOB THAT GIVES YOU A POWER TRIP. I KNOW YOUR TYPE.

Nah. His wife beats him............at everything.

[scumdog]

Nah. His wife beats him............at everything.

Only with the velvet whips.....

[inlinefour]

Yeah, whatever you do don't complain. Robbie's upset and George is threatening to resign.

BTW How long does it take for them to improve their standards. People are getting hurt.


if people did not do farking stupid and dangerous acts on the road and in the process break the law. Then perhaps less people would be getting hurt??? :confused:

[Kickaha]

YOU MAY THINK IM FULL OF SHIT AND THATS OK, BUT ID TAKE A BET YOU ARE AN ALCOHOLIC WIFE BEATER, COPS ARE SOME OF THE MOST DISTURBED PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET YOU WERE PROBABLY PICKED ON AS A KID SO YOU GOT A JOB THAT GIVES YOU A POWER TRIP. I KNOW YOUR TYPE.


It's all true mate,I've visited his house and you can hardly walk down the hall without tripping over empty whiskey bottles and drunken comatose police officers,but he doesn't beat his wife it's the other way around and then only if he asks her nicely :msn-wink:

[avgas]

Its not a true relationship till ya wife can beat ya back........you guys are all just rookies that hit girls :lol:

[1500 Phil]

Hi,
I own and Manage a Security firm so this is what I believe you can do.

1/ Do not get involved in any Police work as you are Joe Public and the Police are time and time again telling Joe Public to leave the Police work to the Police.. If in doubt read your Sunday papers and Watch Tv police 10/7 is good one, they are always telling you as the Public to watch and record details but don't get involved.

2/ If a Lone Police officer is arresting someone and it turns to Crap and the cop gets a beating and you as Joe Public get involved and give the Crim a bash then you could be liable for your actions ..

3/ Crims have rights ( thanks to the do gooders ) and they use these rights to the MAX, there are Scumbag lawyers out there that just love this kind of work !! Yep they do it for FREE if they loose but look out if they win and you get finded and have to pay !!!

4/ If you are protecting your castle or belongings you are allowed to use " reasonable force " to deter or send the CRIM packing ..

" reasonable Force " is decided by the court on the day of your hearing, I have 7 versions of " reasonable force " action brought againist me by yes the Police and all 7 have been TOSSED by the COURT !!!

We should be able to assist the Police if they are in trouble , but due to the do gooders of NZ we have our hands tied..

You help out the police at your own risk ..


I have serious doubts regarding that comment, but I would try to help in a non violent way. The only law I am aware of that says you can assault someone is if they are attempting suicide, then you can use any force required to stop the person :Playnice:

[Skyryder]

What we need is higher unemployment and shitty working conditions in the private sector then people would look at things like police as being a viable option. At the moment there are so many better options why would anyone want to get assaulted, spat at, abused, risk their lives etc etc for a pathetic $42,000.

I don't often comment on your posts Spud but you got it wrong here. Are you seriously suggesting that to increase Police recruitment we should go back to the Rodgenomics philosophy and the associated social problems that went with it. As for the Employment Contract Act that was part and parcel of the shity working conditions that you espouse, that caused more social problems than HART ever did. It's just that they were hidden in private dwellings, out of the glare of the TV cameras.


Skyryder

PS $42,000 is not a bad starting rate with little or no qualifications.

[MSTRS]

It's not about the money - it's a calling. Besides where else can a young fella(ess) get that sort of money if they are income driven.

[spudchucka]

I don't often comment on your posts Spud but you got it wrong here. Are you seriously suggesting that to increase Police recruitment we should go back to the Rodgenomics philosophy and the associated social problems that went with it. As for the Employment Contract Act that was part and parcel of the shity working conditions that you espouse, that caused more social problems than HART ever did. It's just that they were hidden in private dwellings, out of the glare of the TV cameras.


Skyryder

PS $42,000 is not a bad starting rate with little or no qualifications.
No I'm not seriously suggesting we go back to those days. I'm just highlighting some of the difficulties in recruiting the right people into policing when they can do so much better in the private sector. Its been seen in the past when the private sector strikes difficult times and employees are made redundant you get a percentage of the work force that will look at Govt occupations because they provide relative stability. Police being one of those Govt jobs.

I agree that $42,000 is agood starting salary if you are young, single, mortgage free, don't live in Dorkland etc etc. However if you are a thirty something with wife, kids, mortgage blah blah blah when you join like the majority of recruits these days are then $42,000 does not go very far.

Bottom line is that nobody joins the police for the money these days. I gave up a $60K+ job to join up because I hated what I was doing and I had always wanted to have a go at policing. I'm not moaning about what I earn now, (although naturally I think I should be paid shit loads more, who doesn't?) but I believe a lot of people that would otherwise join up don't join once they have sat down and done the math.

As for qualifications, most recruits these days have had careers outside of police for many years prior to joining. They are tradesmen, teachers, university graduates of all types, some have little or no schooling but have applied themselves well and have great common sense and general knowledge. They are a true cross section of society.

Recruits are required to complete university papers as part of their probationary period before they are granted a permanent appointment. To be promoted above constable requires further university study and many internal police exams. If they were uneducated and unqualified when they joined then that soon changes once they have graduated from the police college.

Would you be willing to referee domestics, break up street fights, risk life and limb on a daily basis, get abused simply for doing your job, clean up dead bodies in the local morgue, escort relatives of the dead ones to the morgue to facilitate formal ID's, spend endless hours on pointless paper work, work long hours and night shifts, miss out on your kids special moments because you have to go to Court on your days off, deal with people daily who have the personality of WINJA and remain polite, proffessional and courteous for a paultry $42K?

It appears that not many people are willing to and the ones who have answered the call are leaving faster than they can find new ones.

[MSTRS]

You just said it yourself. It's not the money that attracts.

[750Y]

on the topic of police, it must be pretty frustrating for them at times & some must surely question their career choice at certain pivotal moments.
That guy Greg O'connor?(I think that's his name) he is the president of the 'police association'? or something, he's the guy who seems to make the most sense to me. He seems to have a way of bringing all the politics down to ground level & seems pretty reasonable & realistic & seems to have his finger on the pulse. Is he like a union delegate type guy for the police?
what do you guys in the force think of him?

[spudchucka]

Greg is the president of the police association, which is the police union. He has about 25 - 30 years as a police officer. The big brass don't always like what he says because he doesn't have to answer to the pollies and therefore, what he says is usually a pretty accurate representation of what the majority of front line coppers think.

He is a really interesting guy to talk to and apparently a bloody good laugh to have a beer with.

[scumdog]

With my PM saying much the same it should give you an idea of the front-line guys estimation of him 750Y. :niceone:

[Lou Girardin]

With my PM saying much the same it should give you an idea of the front-line guys estimation of him 750Y. :niceone:

Except that his support speed tax collection is definitely not winning the public over.
Don Brash will fix it. If he wasn't unelectable.

[750Y]

I sorta thought that might be the case. he is much more realistic than that guy Hawkins who reminds me of one of the puppets off thunderbirds. man he comes across as being very rigid and a little condescending at times, i always feel a bit deflated after seeing him on tv cos I'm thinking 'ok great, but what about the average cop on the street'? seems a bit 'ivory tower' to me.
I'm just keeping it in line with the public image theme of the thread.
this is only my opinion so try not to flame me, i don't know everything about it.

[spudchucka]

He's saying leave road policing as it is because it has made a difference but increase the resources allocated to general policing.

Its an election year, Brash will say whatever he thinks the public wants to hear.

[spudchucka]

this is only my opinion so try not to flame me, i don't know everything about it.
I have no intention of flaming you....

[idb]

He's saying leave road policing as it is because it has made a difference but increase the resources allocated to general policing.

Its an election year, Brash will say whatever he thinks the public wants to hear.
I heard Brash interviewed this morning and he wants some of the resources taken from road-policing - primarily speeding - and re-allocated to general duties.

[inlinefour]

I heard Brash interviewed this morning and he wants some of the resources taken from road-policing - primarily speeding - and re-allocated to general duties.

I doubt if he really knows what he wants. Probably just trying to save face because of the elections? :confused:

[spudchucka]

I heard Brash interviewed this morning and he wants some of the resources taken from road-policing - primarily speeding - and re-allocated to general duties.
He's saying that because he thinks it is what the public want him to say, deep down inside he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.

[denill]

He's saying that because he thinks it is what the public want him to say, deep down inside he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.

That's your take. But can't disagree with the "it's what the public want him to say" - because that's right and that is what could very well get his party elected. That is just the way it works. Right?

Hey, the HPs here may get to be *real* cops one day........... If Brash gets his way.

[Lias]

Here's one for the police thread..

I just got back from visiting a guy Wolf & I work with at the hospital. He's just had his right hand (main) thumb surgically amputated this morning after having it crushed in the door of a paddy wagon on sunday morning.

His crime? Yelling out "fucking pigs" at a passing patrol car while he was in town. They pulled over, cuffed him, threw him in the paddy wagon and slammed the door on him while he was only half in (and yes he has witnesses). He's a cheeky prick while hes sober , let alone drunk, as am I but he's not an aggro type of bloke or anything.

I'll be the first to admit he shouldnt have abused the cops, but I know I've done exactly the same thing and not even been arrested. Hell worst he deserved was maybe a bash in the cells, but now hes seriosuly crippled, and his future career in IT is in doubt.

Who's willing to bet the thin blue line will close and this will be written off as a "tragic accident" instead of police brutality caused by stressed out and overworked coppers.

[idb]

He's saying that because he thinks it is what the public want him to say
That's a given I'd suggest.
Once the interviewer tried to go a bit deeper it was obvious that there was no deeper.
He had no proposals, figures or targets beyond trying to aim towards (and it really was as fluffy as that - not saying that they would aim for it) for the Aussie ratio of cops per population.
For a supposedly intelligent and principled bloke I'm surprised how quickly he descended into populist politics.

[spudchucka]

That's your take. But can't disagree with the "it's what the public want him to say" - because that's right and that is what could very well get his party elected. That is just the way it works. Right?

Hey, the HPs here may get to be *real* cops one day........... If Brash gets his way.
What makes you think there are any "HP,s" here?

[spudchucka]

Who's willing to bet the thin blue line will close and this will be written off as a "tragic accident" instead of police brutality caused by stressed out and overworked coppers.
Police brutality? Really? Did the cop intentionally jam his thumb in the door or was he still being an idiot as he was being taken into custody? I've seen enough of these types, you know the ones, "instant arsehole - just add alcohol", to know how things like this can happen unintentionally.

[Ixion]

What makes you think there are any "HP,s" here?


I think that there are a couple at least. I've a notion that they enjoy their job (overall anyway), and wouldn't think being sent off to domestic incidents a great advance. Though maybe (I hope) they would prefer to be able to spend more of their time on actually keeping people safe,and improving driving generally, rather than clocking up "contacts" to satisfy the statistics reports.

[Lias]

Police brutality? Really? Did the cop intentionally jam his thumb in the door or was he still being an idiot as he was being taken into custody? I've seen enough of these types, you know the ones, "instant arsehole - just add alcohol", to know how things like this can happen unintentionally.

Well i've worked with him for a year, hung out with him socially on occasion and been on the piss with him a few times, and he's never given me any indication he's an asshole or aggro etc while drunk.. Cheeky for sure, but hes cheeky when sober.. just cheekier when drunk.

I'm sure Wolf could back me up on this, this person isnt yer trouble maker sort. Me on the other hand :whistle:

[scumdog]

Well i've worked with him for a year, hung out with him socially on occasion and been on the piss with him a few times, and he's never given me any indication he's an asshole or aggro etc while drunk.. Cheeky for sure, but hes cheeky when sober.. just cheekier when drunk.

I'm sure Wolf could back me up on this, this person isnt yer trouble maker sort. Me on the other hand :whistle:

Due to understaffing the boys saw your mate as "oh shit ANOTHER wise guy" after having dealt with a whole raft of drunken abusive "wise guys" who but for alcohol, bravado and mates would be otherwise nice guys.

I'm sure the injury was not a result of deliberate action but shit happens sometimes, my sympathy for him and hope they 'save' his thumb. :niceone:

[Lias]

my sympathy for him and hope they 'save' his thumb

Well its sort of saved. They amuptated most of it, but he still has a ~1inch stub left so he will have some use of it, but its still gonna be pretty crippling I'd imagine.. a thumb is apretty blood essential piece of yer anatomy.

[denill]

What makes you think there are any "HP,s" here?

Well wouldn't blame them if they didn't own up.

[Wolf]

I'm sure Wolf could back me up on this, this person isnt yer trouble maker sort. Me on the other hand :whistle:
Yeah, he's just a cheeky bugger; Lias, on the other hand, is a prick :lol:

[inlinefour]

The emergency 111 system is again under fire after claims that police phoned a farmer to attend a callout in Northland saying that they were too busy to do it themselves.
Farmers say the incident cuts against the message police have been sending them - not to take the law into their own hands.
Farmer Ian Russell was woken by the late night phone call in March telling him that a distressed woman had called for help and that she had called back a short time later to say "not to worry".
The Dargaville constable said he could not attend the scene by himself because he was busy, says Russell.
"He started saying...that the woman may have rung back...because she could have been stood over by someone...so he was definitely genuinely concerned," says Russell.
Russell was about 12 km away at the Pouto Peninsula, so he called friends who were closer to the situation to help.
Northland Federated Farmers say the case of Paul Mcintyre, who has spent two years fighting charges after firing on thieves on his property, highlights why they should not be expected to play police officers.
"The police are saying, 'look, we want to do the job', but in this particular case they rang up a farmer said, 'look, you go down and suss it out for us'. That's just absolutely ridiculous," says Bill Guest of Northland Federated Farmers.
Northland's district commander says police had already ascertained they were not required to attend. While he confirmed Russell had been called he would not say whether he was asked to go to the scene.

[drummer]

The police here are a disgrace generally... but it is largely because of the withering bloated excuse we have for a Government at the moment... about as spineless as a slug.

[denill]

The police here are a disgrace generally....

My opinion FWIW is that the Police are NOT a disgrace GENERALLY in fact generally the Police men & women are VERY good and are out there to look after us as best they can. There are exceptions but the operative word here can only be - generally.

There are many things within the Police that are not good - and that is the fault of the Administration and the Government and I agree Drummer that the "Government at the moment... is about as spineless as a slug".

The Cops here on KR have been defending the indefensible for a long time - and good on them as they need to justify their position and we have no reason to suspect that they are not 'good guys'. Just guys who are required to perform duties that are far too often incompatible with society. Not just the 'stirrer's' here - but the little old ladies et al.

Just listen to Leighton Smith and his callers.

The status quo will not prevail for too much longer and that will mean less police emphasis on 'speeding'. Yeeehaaa.
Whoops. Did I just write that??? I didn't really mean Yeehaaa. Or did I??

PS What are the 5 stars under denill? Does that mean I am a stirrer???

[drummer]

I returned from Auctralia 3 years ago after 20 years there. I noticed two main things... firstly the racism inherent in Government and the second was anytime I have spoken to the police, they have either done noting... if I had to report something... or were short tempered if I asked them a question... never been booked or pulled up yet but I and most others I know have totally lost confidence in the police.... I do agree that it is mainly the admin and Government we should blame, however the individual officers standard is sliding as well from what I have experienced. I absolutely winced the other day when I was seeing "Police 10-7"... some moron was arested after a theft... the police molycoddled him and kept saying "Sweet Bro"... NO.... IT AIN'T SWEET BRO.... Being arrested after stealing some victims poccessions ain't sweet bro... that particular officer deserved an uppercut...

[drummer]

He's saying leave road policing as it is because it has made a difference but increase the resources allocated to general policing.

Its an election year, Brash will say whatever he thinks the public wants to hear.
Brash makes sense... and what is wrong with saying what the public wants to hear.... isn't that what should happen?

[Fart]

Surely the Minister of police and the commissioner my be under review. Both should be replaced with leaders who can restructure the organisation that can run efficiently and effectively.

[drummer]

Police brutality? Really? Did the cop intentionally jam his thumb in the door or was he still being an idiot as he was being taken into custody? I've seen enough of these types, you know the ones, "instant arsehole - just add alcohol", to know how things like this can happen unintentionally.
Seems to me that the police involved here can't take a statement that many believe is warranted... maybe not in my opinion but to many yes... when the police clean up their act then they will deserve more respect... meanwhile... you may be a decent Cop... but too many of your colleagues are letting the police down.

[drummer]

Surely the Minister of police and the commissioner my be under review. Both should be replaced with leaders who can restructure the organisation that can run efficiently and effectively.
replace the moronic twits posing as the Government, then you will see an improvement.

[inlinefour]

replace the moronic twits posing as the Government, then you will see an improvement.

With who? They are all as equally as worthless as each other. :confused:

[drummer]

With who? They are all as equally as worthless as each other. :confused:
No.... on the one hand we have a current mob saying that you are treated differently because of the colour of your skin... a Government that makes a profit of 8 billion but can't affort 1.6 million to help Asthmas sufferers, a government that makes crime pay... need I go on? On the other hand we have someone who is saying ENOUGH!

[inlinefour]

No.... on the one hand we have a current mob saying that you are treated differently because of the colour of your skin... a Government that makes a profit of 8 billion but can't affort 1.6 million to help Asthmas sufferers, a government that makes crime pay... need I go on? On the other hand we have someone who is saying ENOUGH!

But its a well known fact that they all are equally as good at running the country into the ground. Sure its easy to say thats not good and enough, but if you really think that electing another govt is the cure then you have not been around enough. They all rob Peter to pay Paul. They'd probably make education and health suffer just to save face on this...

[drummer]

Sounds like cynicism to me... The facts are plain... this mob is running the country down badly... the only reason that we are ok financially is that we have a motivated workforce and business sector. I see the greatest problem as being racism... and that is something the Don doesn't tolerate!

[idb]

On the other hand we have someone who is saying ENOUGH!
If I'm right about who you are thinking of - I think his full statement is "Enough is Enough!".
When's the next rally anyway? :Pokey:

[drummer]

If I'm right about who you are thinking of - I think his full statement is "Enough is Enough!".
When's the next rally anyway? :Pokey:
Cripes I am not thinking of Tamaki and his bunch of zeal merchants.... he said Enough is Enough! But I agree with his words... not in his context though!

[Fart]

There needs to be a new leader running the police department to bring confidence back into the public. Then, the entire organisation needs a going over with a fine tooth combe. A review follow by recommendations of restructuring to bring the police department back into a standard that is expected by the public.

[drummer]

There needs to be a new leader running the police department to bring confidence back into the public. Then, the entire organisation needs a going over with a fine tooth combe. A review follow by recommendations of restructuring to bring the police department back into a standard that is expected by the public.
replace Hawkins for a start... then Herr Klarke... then then...

[Ixion]

There needs to be a new leader running the police department to bring confidence back into the public. Then, the entire organisation needs a going over with a fine tooth combe. A review follow by recommendations of restructuring to bring the police department back into a standard that is expected by the public.

None of which will help until the terms of the contract between the Commissioner and the Minister are revised (after which, all of the above are essential).

[drummer]

None of which will help until the terms of the contract between the Commissioner and the Minister are revised (after which, all of the above are essential).
yes... that is essentual. However the whole attitude from the top down needs renewal... and that means Government change. The attitude to government of crime is pathetic currently

[denill]

Hey Drummer, are you the Chairman of the committee to 'Get Rid Of Helen' ??

[drummer]

Hey Drummer, are you the Chairman of the committee to 'Get Rid Of Helen' ??
You mean Herr Dictator... the right unhonourable misery guts ugly Klarke, socialist wonder of Unzud,..... well now... I reckon that's the Don who's leader of that organisation you mention but I am in the frontline!

[igor]

I'm sure the injury was not a result of deliberate action but shit happens sometimes, my sympathy for him and hope they 'save' his thumb. :niceone:

u sensitive new age guy u.

got any letters from the boss. r u on enforced holiday.

my new favorite song "like a puppit on a string"

[RDJ]

This is a concern:

Police ask farmer to investigate 111 call

22.04.05
by Louisa Cleave


A police officer asked a farmer to drive 12km to check on neighbours who made a 111 call from their remote Northland property.

<snip> Mr Russell said the officer asked whether he could "go down and have a look", and establish whether it was a genuine 111 call.

"He said there was a woman that rang 111 and there were male voices in the background and a lot of banging and crashing.

"The people in question had had a couple of serious incidents where they had been threatened and their dogs poisoned. So there was reason for the police to be concerned."

<snip>

"It's a resourcing issue. Policing has to change and that's a management issue."

Mr Rickard said the officer used common sense and made the right decision.

He made it "very clear" he would attend, with back-up if required.

end quote

""He made it "very clear" he would attend, with back-up if required."" So that's all right then? Wait for someone to get hurt or killed and then come?

I am a supporter of police but this response - or lack of it - begs some serious questions to be asked of the management.

[drummer]

u sensitive new age guy u.

got any letters from the boss. r u on enforced holiday.

my new favorite song "like a puppit on a string"
Yeah a total marshmello! Work for myself... no-one else would b hard enough on me!

[drummer]

This is a concern:

Police ask farmer to investigate 111 call

22.04.05
by Louisa Cleave


A police officer asked a farmer to drive 12km to check on neighbours who made a 111 call from their remote Northland property.

<snip> Mr Russell said the officer asked whether he could "go down and have a look", and establish whether it was a genuine 111 call.

"He said there was a woman that rang 111 and there were male voices in the background and a lot of banging and crashing.

"The people in question had had a couple of serious incidents where they had been threatened and their dogs poisoned. So there was reason for the police to be concerned."

<snip>

"It's a resourcing issue. Policing has to change and that's a management issue."

Mr Rickard said the officer used common sense and made the right decision.

He made it "very clear" he would attend, with back-up if required.

end quote

""He made it "very clear" he would attend, with back-up if required."" So that's all right then? Wait for someone to get hurt or killed and then come?

I am a supporter of police but this response - or lack of it - begs some serious questions to be asked of the management.
the police have severely let themselves down... If the police on the ground wanted to instigate change then for cripes sake... speak up!

[Indoo]

""He made it "very clear" he would attend, with back-up if required."" So that's all right then? Wait for someone to get hurt or killed and then come?

I am a supporter of police but this response - or lack of it - begs some serious questions to be asked of the management.

I think you will find that this is a typical media beatup.

Another article i read stated that the guys (who had called 111) Wife then took the phone and stated that Police weren't required.

I dunno if you quite know the area but depending on where this remote Northland farm was it could easily have taken the cop 6 hours to drive there and another 6 to drive back. All to attend a 111 call where the callers have told Police they didn't want them to attend.

Imo he did the right thing, asking a neighboor who lived close if he could just check on them to make sure everything was definately ok.

[RDJ]

Yes, I did read the full article (snipped some to save space) and I left out the response from the wife.

My answer is - how would we know unless the police attended whether a home invader was holding a gun or knife to wife or child to get her to say that?

As for distance - sorry, that doesn't cut it for me. If there is an emergency and you have to drive minutes or hours to get there and back that's what you do. In my last job I had to do the same. It's not whether we like it or not, it's just got to be done.

If the neighbour had found an invader and either was killed himself or killed the invader - police management would then inevitably say either "you have no right to take unnecessary risks" or "you have no right to act as a policeman".

My 2c, YMMV.

[Indoo]

And then something happens in Dargaville like an actual home invasion or serious domestic and the Police yet again get blamed by dipshits because they didn't turn up as they were chasing up a bullshit 111 call out in the boonies.

[drummer]

I think you will find that this is a typical media beatup.

Another article i read stated that the guys (who had called 111) Wife then took the phone and stated that Police weren't required.

I dunno if you quite know the area but depending on where this remote Northland farm was it could easily have taken the cop 6 hours to drive there and another 6 to drive back. All to attend a 111 call where the callers have told Police they didn't want them to attend.

Imo he did the right thing, asking a neighboor who lived close if he could just check on them to make sure everything was definately ok.
So... how did they know the woman was the "wife"... and six hours??? Come on... sounds as though you are defending the complete failure of an essentual service!

[drummer]

And then something happens in Dargaville like an actual home invasion or serious domestic and the Police yet again get blamed by dipshits because they didn't turn up as they were chasing up a bullshit 111 call out in the boonies.
So they are understaffed... but this is just insane to be judging a 111 call as being nonserious!

[Indoo]

So... how did they know the woman was the "wife"... and six hours??? Come on... sounds as though you are defending the complete failure of an essentual service!

Its where i used to live and ive been out with a few of the local cops, so i do actually have a clue as to the realities of rural policing. Unfortunately you need to realise that it isn't Auckland, its completely different.

The fact is that a significant proportion of 111 call are either false or do not require Police attention. If Police were to attend every single call regardless of merit we would need around 20,000 more cops. If there was a real emergency (which is extremely unlikely) what goods a cop gonna to do turning up hours later when theres neighbours mere minutes away in a much better position to help.

The real irony of this is that the same people bitching about cops in this instance were the same people complaining about that incident on the farm when the 111 operator kept the farmers wife on the phone preventing her from calling neighbours for help.

What a joke.

[drummer]

Its where i used to live and ive been out with a few of the local cops, so i do actually have a clue as to the realities of rural policing. Unfortunately you need to realise that it isn't Auckland, its completely different.

The fact is that a significant proportion of 111 call are either false or do not require Police attention. If Police were to attend every single call regardless of merit we would need around 20,000 more cops. If there was a real emergency (which is extremely unlikely) what goods a cop gonna to do turning up hours later when theres neighbours mere minutes away in a much better position to help.

The real irony of this is that the same people bitching about cops in this instance were the same people complaining about that incident on the farm when the 111 operator kept the farmers wife on the phone preventing her from calling neighbours for help.

What a joke.
sorry... that doesn't wash with me.... what right do you or anyone else have to judge what is serious or not... if we need 20000 more cops then so be it... but somehow I believe you figures are wrong. Face it... the police are letting themselves down badly!

[Indoo]

sorry... that doesn't wash with me.... what right do you or anyone else have to judge what is serious or not... if we need 20000 more cops then so be it... but somehow I believe you figures are wrong. Face it... the police are letting themselves down badly!

Are you really suggesting that everyone time someone calls 111 wanting Police to attend cos there 9 year old kid swore at them? (and yes that does happen)

I believe you need to get a reality check, its people like you who do nothing but whine and whinge about things they know absolutely nothing about that are the problem.

Go spend a few shifts with your local cop and come back and tell me exactly how they are letting you down. I can guarantee you would'nt wanna do the job so why blanket insult those who do ?

[Ixion]

Have to say that I think the cops did the right thing there.

Happened all the time when I was young. Somebody would report [something not too serious sounding] at [distant location]. Copper would ring a trusted local "Mate, had a report of [noises, someone hanging around whatever, old Mrs Smith not been seen since Monday] at [place] , could you just nip down and have a shufti, tell me if I need to come out"

Local pops down , has a look around and reports back accordingly. Many a futile wasted trip prevented.

It's a sensible thing to do in the countryside. Genuine community policing I'd call it. I just don't understand why the local is complaining.

[drummer]

Are you really suggesting that everyone time someone calls 111 wanting Police to attend cos there 9 year old kid swore at them? (and yes that does happen)

I believe you need to get a reality check, its people like you who do nothing but whine and whinge about things they know absolutely nothing about that are the problem.

Go spend a few shifts with your local cop and come back and tell me exactly how they are letting you down. I can guarantee you would'nt wanna do the job so why blanket insult those who do ?
Dear me.... how do you know its a five year old kid...???? Are you suggesting that cops make judgement calls on what constitutes a "real" emergency? Are you for one moment suggesting that the 111 system is working well? I hope not... otherwise you obviously have no bleeding idea of what is reality and what is not. NO-ONE absolutely no-one of sound mind would even hint that the 111 system is fine and well in Unzud.... I hear what you are saying about lack of cops... but don't defend a force that is by all standards well below what the public expects of them. Ask anyone here who isn't a Cop wheather the police are tackling crime they way they should... wheather the Police answer emergency calls fast.... They do NOT! What about Manukau City... 4 child rape cases not being investigated... thats sick by any standards. I understand your frustration... but only if you are actively trying to change the situation you are complaining of... I am....

Thats all for today folks!

[drummer]

Have to say that I think the cops did the right thing there.

Happened all the time when I was young. Somebody would report [something not too serious sounding] at [distant location]. Copper would ring a trusted local "Mate, had a report of [noises, someone hanging around whatever, old Mrs Smith not been seen since Monday] at [place] , could you just nip down and have a shufti, tell me if I need to come out"

Local pops down , has a look around and reports back accordingly. Many a futile wasted trip prevented.

It's a sensible thing to do in the countryside. Genuine community policing I'd call it. I just don't understand why the local is complaining.
It maybe ok in thwe circumstances you mention but what about a real; crisis... a member of the public could be in real trouble and the person asked to go down could be for it as well. The Cops are there to do their job... full stop... currently as a result of bad Government they do not have the resourses to do that job. Therefore... bye bye Klarke!

[Indoo]

Dear me.... how do you know its a five year old kid...???? Are you suggesting that cops make judgement calls on what constitutes a "real" emergency?

Yes its often quite obvious what calls require Police attendance and what calls require the local mental health people.


I understand your frustration... but only if you are actively trying to change the situation you are complaining of... I am....



Not to bag you if you really are doing something, but what exactly are you doing? All im seeing is you slagging off all cops on an internet message board based on what you read in tacky papers without having anything constructive or informative to say?

[Ixion]

It maybe ok in thwe circumstances you mention but what about a real; crisis... a member of the public could be in real trouble and the person asked to go down could be for it as well. The Cops are there to do their job... full stop... currently as a result of bad Government they do not have the resourses to do that job. Therefore... bye bye Klarke!

Well, I have always argued that coppers are people who should be able to exercise sensible judgement and discretion, and be allowed to use it (and cut a bit of slack if, in hindsight, they doin't always make the call 100% right) . That's when the local cop makes the call. If it sounds like anything nasty , then of course he goes. Doubt that any of them would argue. In this case, local cop made the call that it wasn't nasty and he probably didn't need to go - but just check anyway.

That seems to me to be the sort of judgement call I'd expect from a good copper.

[Ixion]

Dear me.... how do you know its a five year old kid...???? Are you suggesting that cops make judgement calls on what constitutes a "real" emergency? Are you for one moment suggesting that the 111 system is working well? I hope not... otherwise you obviously have no bleeding idea of what is reality and what is not. NO-ONE absolutely no-one of sound mind would even hint that the 111 system is fine and well in Unzud.... I hear what you are saying about lack of cops... but don't defend a force that is by all standards well below what the public expects of them. Ask anyone here who isn't a Cop wheather the police are tackling crime they way they should... wheather the Police answer emergency calls fast.... They do NOT! What about Manukau City... 4 child rape cases not being investigated... thats sick by any standards. I understand your frustration... but only if you are actively trying to change the situation you are complaining of... I am....

Thats all for today folks!


Well, I'm inclined to agree with you about the police failing to tackle serious crime hard enough. But partly that's because too much of their resource is spent on chasing after non-serious matters (or even non-crime matters). So here's an example of a cop doing a sensible thing, not wasting his time on something that was very unlikely to need his attention. So he can spend that time on serious crime. I wish more police did that.

And I have a stack of correspondance with the Minister, the Commissioner and Area Commanders that says I am trying to do something about it. If you want to improve the problem, that's where it needs to be tackled.

[jimbo600]

Dear me.... how do you know its a five year old kid...???? Are you suggesting that cops make judgement calls on what constitutes a "real" emergency? Are you for one moment suggesting that the 111 system is working well? I hope not... otherwise you obviously have no bleeding idea of what is reality and what is not. NO-ONE absolutely no-one of sound mind would even hint that the 111 system is fine and well in Unzud.... I hear what you are saying about lack of cops... but don't defend a force that is by all standards well below what the public expects of them. Ask anyone here who isn't a Cop wheather the police are tackling crime they way they should... wheather the Police answer emergency calls fast.... They do NOT! What about Manukau City... 4 child rape cases not being investigated... thats sick by any standards. I understand your frustration... but only if you are actively trying to change the situation you are complaining of... I am....

Thats all for today folks!

I think I'll chirp in my 2cents. NZ has the worst police/population ratios in the developed world. Overall they re owed 700 years in TOIL. They are overworked, understaffed and underresourced and this is now being manifested in poor service and standards. The individuals themselves do a remarkable job given the resources allocated. We desperately need a change in governmental attitude towards policing for things to change. The latest email drama is a piss in the eyes for the folk employed in the force and damaging to an already fickle morale.

[RDJ]

Well, I have always argued that coppers are people who should be able to exercise sensible judgement and discretion, and be allowed to use it (and cut a bit of slack if, in hindsight, they doin't always make the call 100% right) . That's when the local cop makes the call. If it sounds like anything nasty , then of course he goes. Doubt that any of them would argue. In this case, local cop made the call that it wasn't nasty and he probably didn't need to go - but just check anyway.

That seems to me to be the sort of judgement call I'd expect from a good copper.

Well put and fair comment. Can we split the difference on the argument in the sense that if this was an isolated incident and not more of a pattern it would be OK... as it is, it indicates IMO that the police on the front line are too few to do the job they would like to do and many of us would like them to be able to do...

[inlinefour]

You mean Herr Dictator... the right unhonourable misery guts ugly Klarke, socialist wonder of Unzud,..... well now... I reckon that's the Don who's leader of that organisation you mention but I am in the frontline!

Just my opinion and all, but. The way you carry on drummer with your nazi rants, I reckon your an even bigger pillick as Helen C.
Its easy to say things are not great and we need to do this and that, but you provide no details how, just like Don, point the finger and complain., but don't actually come up with ANY good solutions...

[inlinefour]

Yes, I did read the full article (snipped some to save space) and I left out the response from the wife.

My answer is - how would we know unless the police attended whether a home invader was holding a gun or knife to wife or child to get her to say that?

As for distance - sorry, that doesn't cut it for me. If there is an emergency and you have to drive minutes or hours to get there and back that's what you do. In my last job I had to do the same. It's not whether we like it or not, it's just got to be done.

If the neighbour had found an invader and either was killed himself or killed the invader - police management would then inevitably say either "you have no right to take unnecessary risks" or "you have no right to act as a policeman".

My 2c, YMMV.

The Police should attend everything? No matter how big or small? Kind of like saying an Ambulance should attend every accident even if its just a 5 year old kid who has just graised his knee. :whistle: