Licence Fraud

**madboy** · 25th March 2005, 11:50

Three points -

1 - I agree that this license thing is a bloody shocker, but I disagree that it should fall on the asian "community", rather the sector of the asian community that was involved. Of course, we know that's bloody optimistic and most asians will now be tarred (in the short term) by this shocker.

2 - How many insurance claims are made when your car was broken into and you just happened to claim another 20 or so CDs, plus that ski jacket and video camera that were on the back seat (and currently reside in your wardrobe). For some reason many people think nicking a pack of chewing gum from the dairy is theft, but embellishing an insurance claim is not.

3 - I did the CBTA. Yes, the instructor did put a lot of effort in to those people who required more attention than others, and yes there was some generosity involved in my opinion. Yes, I learned a lot too. But overall I think the standard of the people on my course was high enough to warrant them attaining their licenses.

**Marmoot** · 25th March 2005, 13:31

4. What makes fake license deserve more debate than few hundred unlicensed drivers we see everyday?

5. What makes those AA employees worse than speeding ACC staffs or corrupt police officers or MPs snoozing during Parliamentary meets? (clue: all of them are similar in not-doing-their-job-they-are-paid-to-do)

At least, if I understand it correctly, those $400 license are properly entered into database (just did not have practical test done) and thus if something happens the offender can be traced....probably ironically a slight better than unlicensed driver eh?

ah well, don't mind me....just a random thoughts...I'd better go back to my porn surfing and stop wasting bandwidth

**idb** · 26th March 2005, 23:23

I'm on dial-up.
My porn surfing pretty much uses all of my available band-width.
It's either KB or porn...porn or KB....
I can't always decide. I need to see more photos in your profiles people!

**James Deuce** · 26th March 2005, 23:42

Originally Posted by Marmoot

4. What makes fake license deserve more debate than few hundred unlicensed drivers we see everyday?

They are less likely to be picked up as being inappropriately trained to drive a motor vehicle if they have a "valid" license. Most unlicensed drivers were once licensed and have driven for years, not NEVER as some of these people were alleged to have.

Originally Posted by Marmoot

5. What makes those AA employees worse than speeding ACC staffs or corrupt police officers or MPs snoozing during Parliamentary meets? (clue: all of them are similar in not-doing-their-job-they-are-paid-to-do)

I resent the implication that NZ has anything like the level of corruption in the NZ Police Force that has been proven to exist in MOST other countries. Independent research into levels of corruption in different countries always place NZ near the top of the list of least corrupt bureacracies. I assume that you have cultural baggage that you leads you to that assumption?

That MP snoozing had probably pulled a week of all nighters. I know most people assume that politicians are feckless slackers, but I doubt that people on this site would put up with the punishing schedule that they keep as a matter of course.

**thehollowmen** · 27th March 2005, 01:19

I didn't mean to open a can of worms about the CBTA.. was just taking the piss.

I did learn from it, but I don't know if I learnt enough: In a hairy situation I could still be a danger to myself and / or others. I will gain more experiance.

And at that price, it is a 'those who can afford it can get their full" option... should the price be taken down to try and let more of the KBs do it? What about group rates?

Motorcycle club down here is getting group rates for the basic skills course because they've got a lot of newbies interested...

**Marmoot** · 27th March 2005, 11:06

Originally Posted by Jim2

I resent the implication that NZ has anything like the level of corruption in the NZ Police Force that has been proven to exist in MOST other countries. Independent research into levels of corruption in different countries always place NZ near the top of the list of least corrupt bureacracies.

Good point, Jim2, BUT:

I was NOT talking about levels. I was merely pointing out that even though NZ is the so-called 3rd uncorrupt nation, there is corruption in every levels regardless.

The one just dragged into court for high-profile rape case, weren't they police? What about the one used excessive force and beat a teenager out in petrol station forecourt, wasn't he police? Or the so-called "sick police culture" that was exposed, etc etc.

I don't mean to be unfair (sorry spud, etc). But we have to acknowledge that corruption is everywhere, proven by these blacksheeps. Only by acknowledging that coruption is there then we can think about fighting and preventing it.
Denial and wrapping ourselves in a silk cotton ball will simply shut our eyes while the society gets more corrupt.

P.S.
It is actually good that these license fraud gets exposed so that they can be eradicated in root level. I am just confused on why similar cases are not exposed and warranted crackdown hard enough (unlicensed driver, etc)

**James Deuce** · 27th March 2005, 11:26

Originally Posted by Marmoot

Good point, Jim2, BUT:

Or the so-called "sick police culture" that was exposed, etc etc.

I don't mean to be unfair (sorry spud, etc). But we have to acknowledge that corruption is everywhere, proven by these blacksheeps. Only by acknowledging that coruption is there then we can think about fighting and preventing it.
Denial and wrapping ourselves in a silk cotton ball will simply shut our eyes while the society gets more corrupt.

You'e talking crap. You are expressing an opinion that is formed entirely on the picture presented by a media with an agenda to use the Police as a medium to discredit certain Government policies.

It is not everywhere. It is not endemic. You are talking about a few, a very few individuals, who are alleged to behaved in a certain way or committed a crime. They are now committed to a disciplinary process or to a judicial one. NZ cops, as a general rule, do not quietly fold the $20 bill you passed them to avoid a breathalyser test at a checkpoint into their wallet.

There is no denial here. There are obviously measures in place that are detecting "corruption" within the Police force. As for the culture being sick, by current PC standards it probably is. I don't have much truck with PC bollocks, or someone retrospectively deciding that the Police maltreated them 20 or 30 years ago, when the behaviour exhibited by the Cop was within the normal parameters of behaviour in regard to the macro-culture of NZ.

If you think NZ is corrupt, try bribing a NZ Customs Service officer at a port of entry. You may want to bring some KY jelly with you, because they sure as hell aren't going to use any when they cavity search you, then put you on a flight back to where you came from.

**RDJ** · 27th March 2005, 22:22

Originally Posted by Jim2

I resent the implication that NZ has anything like the level of corruption in the NZ Police Force that has been proven to exist in MOST other countries. Independent research into levels of corruption in different countries always place NZ near the top of the list of least corrupt bureacracies. I assume that you have cultural baggage that you leads you to that assumption?

You're absolutely correct. Having worked across Asia - Indonesia, Philippines, Malaysia, Cambodia, Thailand, China, then Eastern Europe mainly Russia and the Trashcanistans, now Singapore - with the exception of Singapore and Finland (where IMO officialdom is as corruption free as NZ) in all other mentioned places corruption is not just endemic but flourishing.

(pulls on asbestos suit)

Hard to believe anything other than that the recent license fraud episodes demonstrate the import to NZ of unwanted overseas habits.

**Marmoot** · 27th March 2005, 22:56

Originally Posted by Jim2

You'e talking crap. You are expressing an opinion that is formed entirely on the picture presented by a media with an agenda to use the Police as a medium to discredit certain Government policies.

It is not everywhere. It is not endemic. You are talking about a few, a very few individuals....

Never said anything about 'endemic' or 'majority' either there, jim2. I did indicate clearly I was talking about a few individuals. But nevertheless the corruption is there, regardless of what levels. Or are you trying to do whitewash by simply pointing the fact that New Zealand is 99% Corruption Free?

Remember that 95% fat free food actually contains 5% fat.

And if I'm talking crap, I think you'd better not read it, unless you have some crap-fetish building in you. The last time I checked NZ is still a free country? Or are we trying to import one more of those so-called 3rd world behaviour by introducing censorship on opinions?

**Krusti** · 27th March 2005, 23:10

I can assure you that the NZ Police force is probably the least corrupt of any in the world. This licence deal was carried out by an EX cop. Maybe there is a reason why he is EX.

The one thing that is really hated in the NZ Police is any form of corruption and in my experiance is dealt with with a sledge hammer approach.

Just dont get me started on some other areas of NZ Policing.

The total lack of corruption here is one of the few things I am proud of regarding our Police Force.

**Ixion** · 27th March 2005, 23:22

Originally Posted by RDJ

You're absolutely correct. Having worked across Asia - Indonesia, .. corruption is not just endemic but flourishing.

..

Yep. Cost me 50000 rupiah slipped to the immigration guy to get into Jakarta. Luckily I was told the deal by another traveller. No pay, you will get through. Eventually. After a hard time. Slip the vigourish and I was waved straight through.

Freaked a bit at first, I got confused about the currency and thought it was 50000 rupees (about $2500) But 50000 rupiah is only $50. I'm OK with that if that's how it works.

But later in Jakarta I had to go and get a visa for China at the Chinese Embassy. And was warned very strongly not to even *hint* at anything in the way of baksheesh.

Don't know though whether it is better to have officials on the take for the money, or those who are in it for the power trip it gives them (*Lots* of those in NZ).

And there's other sorts of corruption than used notes in a brown paper bag. Not so sure that we're really squeaky clean, just more sophisticted in how officials get their payback.

**James Deuce** · 28th March 2005, 00:00

Originally Posted by Marmoot

Never said anything about 'endemic' or 'majority' either there, jim2. I did indicate clearly I was talking about a few individuals. But nevertheless the corruption is there, regardless of what levels. Or are you trying to do whitewash by simply pointing the fact that New Zealand is 99% Corruption Free?

Remember that 95% fat free food actually contains 5% fat.

And if I'm talking crap, I think you'd better not read it, unless you have some crap-fetish building in you. The last time I checked NZ is still a free country? Or are we trying to import one more of those so-called 3rd world behaviour by introducing censorship on opinions?

Free speech means the ability to call what some else says, "crap." Censorship is not letting someone spout the crap in the first place.

You did not, at any point, clearly state that you were singling individuals within the NZ Police force out. You made a broad sweeping statement that said the NZ Police force was corrupt, based on very limited, unreferenced evidence. You then, in the tradition of every statistician, concluded that corruption was clearly a major problem in NZ. It is not.

**Marmoot** · 28th March 2005, 00:25

Originally Posted by Jim2

You made a broad sweeping statement that said the NZ Police force was corrupt, based on very limited, unreferenced evidence. You then, in the tradition of every statistician, concluded that corruption was clearly a major problem in NZ. It is not.

Correction, according to the initial post it was "...than speeding ACC staffs or corrupt police officers...", which in essence pointed to officers instead of the whole force. I never said corruption was a major problem in NZ either; perhaps this was a conclusion made from wrong interpretation of my original posting by yourself?

In any case, I do believe corruption warrants utmost attention and, as krusti has said, deserve a sledgehammer approach. I came from a country where corruption was rampant, and I tell you it would be sad if NZ becomes like that. But I strongly believe denial of corruption will only hide the real problem, until it is too late to repair. I am simply hoping that other cases of problems get dealt with similar approach as the one they are having with the license fraud. And what is crap about that?