Planning permission for a new garage: $830!

[The Stranger:Me]

do what you will and tell no-one.

That is truely a very sorry situation.
Not exatcly sure what you are saying here, however it should be noted that recently someone did just this and sold their house. The new owner sued and the vendor had to pay $430,000.00 in compensation + costs.
Concealing the issue may well have it's downside too.
If you find you have a leaky house, you should act and act NOW! BEFORE the 10yrs is up as noted. Get a good lawyer, who specialises in this and get appropriate advice. If you don't, it will cost YOU!

P.S. I do know of one such lawyer if anyone is looking for one.

[Brett]

OK - The reason I blame the builders (to a degree) and I don't blame the timber (as much) is because the timber in question may well have been fine if it had not been put into a situation where any timber would rot after a short period of time.

As I said, builders are not stupid people and the knew the buildings were farked right from the start.

BUT yes I do put most blame with the authorities to have allowed a worldwide know 'failed building practice' to destroy the lives of thousands of innocent people. And then to turn their backs on them. They approved the design and signed it off. They should accept some responsibility. The builder will get away with building as cheaply as possible within the given guidlines. Why shouldn't they? (complete U-turn then)

I think you are under the assumption that builders do more when building a hosue than they actually do.
Process =

- Approach architect/architectural draughtsman to design house. This will have ALL flashing details, timber treatment grades etc stipulated on the plan.
- Take finished plan to council for permit. Council review documents in accordance with NZBC and either pass them or ask for more detail to be provided or ammended.
- Plans are approved, owner or builders sends plans off to prenail manufacturer who does a take off of all timber required (sometimes material and hardware too). Prenail bunch fabricate prenail frames and trusses IN ACCORDANCE with the plans, put together random timber etc and send out to site.
Builder takes delivery of framing and proceeds to put them together until ready for roof & Preline stage. Builder leaves site until he comes back to fit skirtings, doors, architraves, hardware and accessories such as toilet roll holders etc.

Yes one could argue that the builder should have spoken up when they noted the timber was not treated, but as this was legal under the NZBC and was actually pushed by many timber merchants it is not exactly reasonable to place more blame with them than any other party involved in the process.

Still leaky buildings are a horrendous problem to be lumbered with and anyone who builds a house with flat roofs, houses monolithic cladding systems with questionable flashing details and other such leaking indicators need their heads read.

There is a reason I just built our house with Brick & Tile.

Oh yeah, I am not a builder, so have no vested interest in the above statements either.

[MadDuck]

Yes one could argue that the builder should have spoken up when they noted the timber was not treated, but as this was legal under the NZBC and was actually pushed by many timber merchants it is not exactly reasonable to place more blame with them than any other party involved in the process.

Two things are really quite shocking about this whole thing. Two Auckland Frame & Truss merchants went out of business only last year for allegedly using the incorrect timber in the Frames & Trusses for housing. Completely against CHH guidelines. This was in fact picked up by an inspector some ohh 100 homes later......

Problem 1. These companies were undercutting other larger companies on quotes on F&T by $1,000sss. So of course the unsuspecting home owners decide on the cheaper option.

Problem 2. The F&T companies are now bankrupt or in the process of. So the next poor bugger in line is the builder.

Sadly I know of one or two builders who have lost everything just because they built to the architects specification.

[The Stranger:Me]

Yes one could argue that the builder should have spoken up when they noted the timber was not treated, but as this was legal under the NZBC and was actually pushed by many timber merchants it is not exactly reasonable to place more blame with them than any other party involved in the process.

Actually the builder has a legal obligation to speak up if they know or believe something to be amiss on the plans or specs. This has ben established by case law. So building to the plans and specs is not in and of itself a valid defence.
Not applicable in this case as the govt had both tested and approved the use of untreated timber.

[Swoop]

If we trace the issue back to the source...

"Someone" or a group of people had obviously lobbied the regulators who then permitted the building code to allow untreated timber to be used.

The theory went along the lines of "we use kiln dried timber which is too dry for insects to attack". Some of these morons conveniently forgot that timber always takes up moisture/releases moisture to remain at EMC. When that happens Mr Insect & Mr Fungus is really quite happy.

Who the instigators of the legislation change actually are, would be interesting to find out.
They should be held accountable.

[HenryDorsetCase]

If we trace the issue back to the source...

"Someone" or a group of people had obviously lobbied the regulators who then permitted the building code to allow untreated timber to be used.

The theory went along the lines of "we use kiln dried timber which is too dry for insects to attack". Some of these morons conveniently forgot that timber always takes up moisture/releases moisture to remain at EMC. When that happens Mr Insect & Mr Fungus is really quite happy.

Who the instigators of the legislation change actually are, would be interesting to find out.
They should be held accountable.

thats pretty well known to be honest.

But it wasnt JUST the use of unteated timber or JUST the changes to the Building Act and Code or JUST the debt fuelled housing bubble... it was all those things.

[Ixion]

Another shoddy product from jimmy hardly.
The product is delaminating and the failure rate is shocking.

I have been surprised by the lack of skills that it takes to become a building inspector. One example is an ex jib-stopper who works for the Auckland council as an "inspector".

Those aren't weather boards. They're just another fibroboard crap thing. Weatherboards is made of wood , from tree things.

[Swoop]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10588536

A new-home warranty system has been announced as part of a shake-up of the construction industry to tackle the leaky-building disaster.

Building and Construction Minister Maurice Williamson says it will guarantee that houses are fit for sale.

Mr Williamson told the Building Research Association's Build magazine he was surprised at the enormity of the leaky homes saga and previously "had no idea of the magnitude". That had changed.

"The best estimate we have currently is that the repair bill will be about $3.6 billion - a huge number. We think that's about 20,000 properties."

Early this year, Mr Williamson announced a major investigation into the scale of the problem and the Department of Building and Housing led the weathertightness project taskforce. Its findings are yet to be released.

Now, Mr Williamson plans a radical shake-up of the leaky-building system, which he says is not working.

"It's just dreadful. We are going to completely revamp the whole process because the whole weathertight resolution process so far has seen huge chunks of money go into the hands of lawyers and litigation and tribunals and almost nothing going into fixing the rotting buildings," he told the magazine.


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A new-home warranty insurance scheme is part of the big changes he plans to promote and he released some details.

"Why, on the most valuable asset you're ever going to buy in your life, wouldn't you want to have some sort of guarantee that it's fit for purpose and is going to function as promoted for many years?" he said.

"Everything we do from the new policy will be targeted to fixing the problem and lawyers won't like me at all because it won't be going to them." Last week, Mr Williamson said the Building Amendment Bill would reform the construction sector and reduce delays and costs.

The warranty could be through insurance companies or builder guarantees, but homeowners could opt out of taking the warranty if they were confident the builder was up to the job, the magazine reported.

Mr Williamson told the Building Industry Federation annual meeting in Wellington last month that the Government was taking a fresh look at weathertight issues and was committed to getting leaky homes fixed.

"The Department of Building and Housing has undertaken a comprehensive review of the approach currently taken to weathertight issues. Once the results are known, the Government will decide on the best option to address the problem," he said.

Auckland law firm chief Paul Grimshaw said he was keen to know more about the minister's plans. Grimshaw & Co is representing about 6000 property owners who are suffering after buying leaky houses. Many are in body corporates in large apartment blocks.

The High Court at Auckland is also handling leaky building cases on an almost-daily basis.

The country's largest leaky building claim is apartment block Hobson Gardens, Hobson St in Auckland's CBD. That twin-tower complex could cost $20 million to fix.

But John Gray, president of the Homeowners and Buyers Association, said Mr Williamson had severely under-estimated the scale of the problem.

Industry sector estimates that 80,000 houses and units would cost $5 billion to fix could even be a big under-estimate, he said.

"I think it might be higher than that."

He called for Mr Williamson to urgently release the national investigation into the scale of the problem, saying this would come closer to revealing the true nature of the systemic failure.

Local councils were the very entities driving up legal costs on leaky building litigation, Mr Gray said, fighting victims in court over payments.

"They're defending the indefensible."

Mr Gray said he was concerned to hear that Mr Williamson wanted to stop private litigation. This would deny people of their right to access the court system.

* Estimates

Maurice Williamson:

$3.6 billion, 20,000 properties

Homeowners and Buyers Association:

$5 billion, 80,000 properties

[SPman]

and absolute b.s. 'new' safer regulations (e.g. unable to use galvanised exterior bolts on a deck because my house now deemed as high salt spray area - but original bolts had zero rust on them after 14 years outside...the new an unbelievably expensive stainless steel bolts etc already have 'tea stains' i.e. rust...oh and $3000 worth of extra stainlees steel strapping ).

I had a,"strong" argument with the auditing officer over this point on one job - didn't help any - left the poor householder in tears and she had to spend another $1000 on fittings for no good reason that I could see. I wasn't happy.

I have been surprised by the lack of skills that it takes to become a building inspector. One example is an ex jib-stopper who works for the Auckland council as an "inspector".

Who was that? There were 2 or 3 Bozo's in there, when I was there that the rest of us would quite happily have buried in any convenient foundation! There are some good ones in Auckland, though, as well. The new minimum requirement is a Diploma in Building Surveying, which was being introduced in 2005 and we all started doing extramuraly. The English guys normally had a Degree in Building Surveying. My experience was Advanced Trade Certificate in Carpentry, 25yrs building in house and commercial, with 3 yrs cabinetmaking and joinery thrown in, and a Diploma of Quantity Surveying. I generally found the ex trades guys had a better handle on things, apart from the power junkies who were there, who were just arseholes!

[Brett]

Two things are really quite shocking about this whole thing. Two Auckland Frame & Truss merchants went out of business only last year for allegedly using the incorrect timber in the Frames & Trusses for housing. Completely against CHH guidelines. This was in fact picked up by an inspector some ohh 100 homes later......

Problem 1. These companies were undercutting other larger companies on quotes on F&T by $1,000sss. So of course the unsuspecting home owners decide on the cheaper option.

Problem 2. The F&T companies are now bankrupt or in the process of. So the next poor bugger in line is the builder.

Sadly I know of one or two builders who have lost everything just because they built to the architects specification.

That is why, if you are not familiar with construction, for the sake of all things good, DO NOT TRY PROJECT MANAGE IT YOURSELF!!!!! Pay a Building Company, they understand the industry, the pitfalls and are legally and professionaly set up to carry out such works.

Actually the builder has a legal obligation to speak up if they know or believe something to be amiss on the plans or specs. This has ben established by case law. So building to the plans and specs is not in and of itself a valid defence.
Not applicable in this case as the govt had both tested and approved the use of untreated timber.

In the case of inadequate or incorrect specific detailing such as flashing details, wall junctions etc I agree.
Would struggle to see that a case could be put forward saying that a builder, back when untreated kiln dried radiata pine was being promoted heavily and indeed was legal under the legislation of the time, could be found culpable and having acted in error in allowing the timber to be used.
The theory behind untreated timber is sound...it wont rot or get eaten by NZ bugs SO LONG AS IT STAYS DRY. The timber only failed as a result of systematic failure of other building elements such as cladding, water proofing membranes etc.
I am not defending any particular party here, I just think that average Joe Public is not well enough aware of the industry to make an informed and fair comment. And it does seem that people are quick to come out with their verdict rather quickly without knowing the facts behind the facade.

[Molly]

I think if I'd faced the collapse of a $400k house due to rot I'd have torched the f'ker and claimed on the insurance. Not an honourable thing to admit but how does an average working bloke recover from that kind of loss?

One question for the builders. I see houses going up in my area and the framework seems to be a mix of green and pink stained wood. What do the colours signify?

Wish I'd been a builder by the way. Must be nice to have something to show for your efforts. You get f'k all back from a day's teaching.

[Brett]

I think if I'd faced the collapse of a $400k house due to rot I'd have torched the f'ker and claimed on the insurance. Not an honourable thing to admit but how does an average working bloke recover from that kind of loss?

One question for the builders. I see houses going up in my area and the framework seems to be a mix of green and pink stained wood. What do the colours signify?

Wish I'd been a builder by the way. Must be nice to have something to show for your efforts. You get f'k all back from a day's teaching.

Different colours can be a few things, different treatment plants treating the timber use different colour dyes to distinguish timber types and in some cases it can also indicate the timber treatment.

I started out as a builder, but am glad I moved off into project management because you get exposure to many different types of projects, you have to know a lot about a lot, ie I need to be able to do QA etc on all different trades which means I get to learn about a lot of different stuff, you get to be involved in the design aspects, the financial control aspects and the more technical aspects of construction that the builder does not, ie engineering etc.
Once upon a time builders were able to do a lot more than they get to today. The way the residential construction industry is moving here (very similar to the states and aussie) it is becoming very modular, ie like putting a puzzle together except different companies and trades do their little bit of the puzzle. The only party who really get to be involved in the whole process is the project manager, hence I didn't find the decision to move into it years ago very hard.

[Molly]

Sounds like the right move. I take a walk past local builds all the time and like to watch the day to day developments. Would love to spend some time out of my job and on some of these sites getting a bit of exercise and maybe some skills. Maybe one summer holiday.

[The Stranger:Me]

One question for the builders. I see houses going up in my area and the framework seems to be a mix of green and pink stained wood. What do the colours signify?

Wish I'd been a builder by the way. Must be nice to have something to show for your efforts. You get f'k all back from a day's teaching.

Used to be that the pink was boron treated and the green was tanalith treated.
Generally - green for in and on ground and where exposed and pink for where dry and enclosed. Although there were different grades of pink and green.
That was before I was a nerd, may have changed somewhat of late however.

[Swoop]

I see houses going up in my area and the framework seems to be a mix of green and pink stained wood. What do the colours signify?

Pink = H1.2 Boron treated
Blue = H1.2 Permethrin plus.
Green = H3.1.

*Places pens back into pen protector pocket, folds up pointer stick, exits classroom*