I've been thinking...

[MarkH]

Thinking on this a little further though, what makes a better rider? One who has been taught to ride “properly” or one who has that natural skill, and rides really well despite not having lessons?

To be honest I don't think this is important. I have however much natural skill that I have and I can't do anything to change that. Someone with more natural skill than me has the potential to be a better rider just as I have the potential to be better than someone that has less natural skill than me.

What matters to me is whether a good rider can become a better rider and whether a bad rider can become a reasonable rider or even a good one.

I think that those people who are not interested in learning are not going to become better than what they are. Those that are willing to be taught can improve and become better riders - I would rather listen to a mentor and become better than not, what is wrong with reducing your chances of dying in an accident? I returned to riding less than a year ago and not long after that I went along to an RRRS course - this gave me stuff to think about and has been helpful in self evaluating my performance. I have also ridden over 20,000 Kms - this has helped to become more comfortable with various situations. If there were an advanced riding course that I could do that resulted in paying less ACC then I would be happy to attend - but ACC don't do stuff like that, they really don't do much to reduce accidents at all (I know they do some things like TV ads).

[Genestho]

Have you seen the cost of registering a motorcycle these days? Wow, we are certainly paying for the negative statistics generated from our high ACC claims and accident rates. So one thing leads to another and I go back to figuring out a way to reduce my registration costs. I think about riding lessons and rider education and reduction in accident rates for the BAB’s (Born Again Bikers) that seem to be the highest rating accident statistic generators.

Surely we should all be taking lessons? Learning all we can about the right and wrong way to ride, the technical details, the absolutes to becoming a great rider? This will undoubtedly reduce our accident rate. Then again, perhaps we should embrace the instinctive rider inside us and let it all hang out? Who is the better rider? The educated and practised one, or the one that has natural skill, or is a combination of the two the way to go?

I can hear the cogs turning from here woman!! haha!!

If you want to take this musing a little further....

Check out what's happening with the Auck Roadsafety Group, I'm pretty sure they said Aucks are conducting similar meetings as we are in WBOP.

Following my judge of character and instinct - which has always been pretty good, I feel with the WBOP group, being all bikers or involved in the Bike community in some way - ACC rep and NZ Police Rep included, are zoning in on the issues, using ALL available input from all involved.

I believe there is some listening going on.

The problem is there are alot of ideas, beyond ad's and posters, but let's keep in mind - budget can restrict ideas! Also, things won't happen overnight.

There's another lobbying avenue with a massive network - perhaps, but it may be pointless as this stage when the aboves are happening.

Not sure where you want to take this?

There is no compulsory training that anyone has to do. When you get your license you only need to pass a written and riding test. The riding test much depends on where you are and who is testing. Then you are set to go.



You only have two options:
- Legislation change so all have to do training.
or
- Change the way ppl think.

When/if this happens, guess what our guvernment will settle for...

Mmmmhmmmmm

There is a planning strategy underway with regards to Roadsafety.

Because I've persisted in a few areas, I am now on consultation list directly with Ministry of Transport for the Safer Journeys Roadsafety strategy to 2020

If you're keen to get involved in something Mom, just let me know, I can point you in a few places

[Pussy]

I personally think EVERY holder of a driver licence should HAVE to do a Defensive Driving course every five years

[CookMySock]

I think the first hour on a motorcycle is critical grounding that must take place.

Everyone resorts to their initial instincts in an emergency, and for some it is to stand the bike up and brake, and for others it is to choose a new direction and bar push.

Thats how I brought my newbie riders into the biking world, but of course I am light-years away from drawing any conclusion from it.

Steve

[MarkH]

I personally think EVERY holder of a driver licence should HAVE to do a Defensive Driving course every five years

Or better still - something useful like an advanced driving/riding course. With motorcycles that could involve going through some exercises while experienced mentors watch what you do and how you do it. Have training available that can correct any bad habits that are observed. For the competent riders this may involve less than 1/2 an hour demonstrating your competence then you are on your way with a renewed license. Maybe for those that lose their license due to too many demerit points there could be an option to undergo advanced training and immediately get their license back if they pass the evaluation. Imagine what the road would be like if they were filled with competent riders & drivers! Maybe the well trained drivers would even have the skills to drive on the road without hitting motorcycles.

[eelracing]

Thinking on this a little further though, what makes a better rider? One who has been taught to ride “properly” or one who has that natural skill, and rides really well despite not having lessons?

Interesting post Mom to which I reckon you already answered as a combination of the two.

To use a racing comment "It is easier to teach a fast rider who crashes a lot to slow down,than it is to teach a slow rider who never crashes to go faster".
Or is it? Its gotta depend on the person and there motivation i reckon.

But what is natural ability?Would Tiger Woods have been a MotoGP champ if his dad had put him on a bike instead of a golf course as a toddler?

Are musical talent and athletic talent drawn from the same well?

Genius is one step away from insanity in most cases.

Oh yeah...what was the question?

Seat time backed up by good theory is the best course.
Natural ability will only take you so far as determination/motivation has seen a lot of less talented sportspeople reach there goals
Its just that natural athletes make it look a lot easier than it is. (Bastards)

All bets are off when it comes to the road tho,coz a large slice of self control/awareness better be added to the mix.

[Ixion]

..
To use a racing comment "It is easier to teach a fast rider who crashes a lot to slow down,than it is to teach a slow rider who never crashes to go faster".
..

But in the context of the OP, of SAFETY and NOT crashing we don't WANT to teach the slow rider who never crashes to go faster. If he never crashes, that's all good.

What we need to do is teach the fast rider who crashes a lot how to stop crashing. Which may, or may not, involve persuading him to go slower.

This is the trouble with all discussions like this, they get hijacked by the racers into a good rider = fast rider paradigm.

[dipshit]

Natural ability will only take you so far as determination/motivation has seen a lot of less talented sportspeople reach there goals
Its just that natural athletes make it look a lot easier than it is. (Bastards)

All bets are off when it comes to the road tho,coz a large slice of self control/awareness better be added to the mix.

This is where the waters get muddied. Is the idea for improving "rider skills" meant to make more people be able to pull longer wheelies and scrape their foot pegs around corners and lose their chicken strips... or to stop riders from fucking crashing..??

(important to define what a good rider is as the two are almost polar opposites)

[Big Dave]

Playing a ukelele whilst negotiating a cone-marked slalom or doing an emergency stop would make an interesting YouTube video...

I can juggle 3 golf balls while standing up on the pegs and rolling downhill on a motorcycle.

Co-pilot will not agree to film the stunt however.

[dipshit]

What we need to do is teach the fast rider who crashes a lot how to stop crashing. Which may, or may not, involve persuading him to go slower.

This is the trouble with all discussions like this, they get hijacked by the racers into a good rider = fast rider paradigm.

Exactly. These legions in their own lunchtime types think they are the best thing since carbon fibre was invented.

And they think they need to pass on their "amazing skills" to all the granny riders out there.

[eelracing]

This is the trouble with all discussions like this, they get hijacked by the racers into a good rider = fast rider paradigm.

Thats not my intention at all,but the question asked was what makes a better rider,natural Vs theory.Not what makes a safer rider.

But i'm willing to bet more ACC is payed out to motocross and roadracers than road riders.

Funnily enough since i started roadracing I hav'nt had a single accident on the road (touch wood).

[Ixion]

Thats not my intention at all,but the question asked was what makes a better rider,natural Vs theory.Not what makes a safer rider.

But i'm willing to bet more ACC is payed out to motocross and roadracers than road riders.

Funnily enough since i started roadracing I hav'nt had a single accident on the road (touch wood).

Well, no. The original question was (my emphases)

Have you seen the cost of registering a motorcycle these days? Wow, we are certainly paying for the negative statistics generated from our high ACC claims and accident rates. That got me to thinking (and doing a bit of research) about the reasons why we feature so highly

Motocross and roadracers don't pay registration (or ACC, unless they are professionals) .

In that context it is certainly arguable that 'better' = safer', not 'better' = faster.

And I could certainly envisage that one rider might have a very high natural ability to ride faster , but very little natural ability to not crash n a public road context (and that context is indicated by the registration comment). Whereas another rider might have very little natural "go fast" ability, but a great deal of "keep safe don't crash" ability.

It is surprising how many people are unable to grasp the inherent illogicality in a 'good' rider being extricated from a ditch. Until that is resolved we won't see casualty rates come down.

To eb sure, a few lucky folk have natural ability at both and can ride both fast and safe. (And a few lack both , and crash despite being slow)

[Mom]

Everyone resorts to their initial instincts in an emergency, and for some it is to stand the bike up and brake, and for others it is to choose a new direction and bar push.

I will totally refute that comment for a couple of reasons.

I believe that if you are taught the skills you need to control a motorcycle in an emergency situation, or even if you already have some kind of preprogrammed inherant natural ability to do the right thing under pressure that is what you actually do resort to when faced with an emergency. There is no panic, there is a simple decision to do what you know has to be done.

The other thing I note from many conversations with people, is that the more you practise (for example) emergency braking - you know the "progressive application of brake" as opposed to the "OMG! grab up a handful of front and slam on the rear brake to stop fast" kind of braking, the quicker you will automatically do it when you need to.

Interesting post Mom to which I reckon you already answered as a combination of the two.

Seat time backed up by good theory is the best course.

I have bolded a comment in your post that I think is actually very valid indeed. Experience has to also be the key to safe riding.

But in the context of the OP, of SAFETY and NOT crashing we don't WANT to teach the slow rider who never crashes to go faster. If he never crashes, that's all good.

What we need to do is teach the fast rider who crashes a lot how to stop crashing. Which may, or may not, involve persuading him to go slower.

This is the trouble with all discussions like this, they get hijacked by the racers into a good rider = fast rider paradigm.

Thank you Ixion. See for me speed has absolutely nothing to do with being a safe, reliable and great rider. Roadcraft, and the ability to avoid getting yourself in the doo doo in the first place, along with having the ability to get yourself out of trouble if it happens, is to me the most important thing.

First you need to define what is a "great rider" with good skills..?

Well mate, if you dont actually know what a great rider with good skills actually is, I cant really help you out.

[dipshit]

Well mate, if you dont actually know what a great rider with good skills actually is, I cant really help you out.

Is it this guy...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvsnGQchHn0

Or these guys...?

[Mom]

Is it this guy...?

Or these guys...?

You know I am not sure why you feel the need to bring your agenda in here but seeing as this is the 2nd time you have posted links today I watched them.

The first rider is safe by virtue of the fact that every hazard was pointed out for him. If that is what you think needs to happen to make riding safe then I suggest you lobby the government to adjust signage around the country. If this bloke has to rely on signs to warm him of every potential hazzard along the way then heaven help him is all I can say.

As far as the fellas having a bit of fun out and about goes, I cant comment as I dont actually know anything about their riding apart from what they have chosen to post on some web forum. I not so conceited as to comment on how great a rider they are.

While I may or may not condone some of the skills demonstrated in that second clip being done on the open road, the clip you posted has no relevance to my thread.

In case you missed it, I am talking about safety and reducing accidents primarily, along with the differences between learned skills and God given ones and if that makes a difference.