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Thread: Mind control

  1. #1
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    Post Mind control

    I was reading the thread on trolley supermarket behavior and started thinking about the Cialdini effect. I found this pretty easy to understand article on it to get people thinking...

    If you see someone riding dangerously or performing stunts - are you then more inclined to try them yourself? If you see a biker drag off a pimply faced boi racer are you more inclined to try next time?

    It seems the power of suggestion and the Cialdini effect have a lot to answer for...


    I do remember reading an article that investigated the relationship in driver behavior to that of trolley pushing in the supermarket - quite interesting but was not online.


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle5562596.ece

    The Cialdini effect might sound like a new mind-control trick from the illusionist Derren Brown, but it is more sinister than that. It is indeed a mind-control trick, but one that requires no tricksy showman to pull it off. If, like me, you have ever abandoned a shopping trolley in a messy supermarket car park, then you have fallen under its subtly destructive spell and you have only your subconcious to blame.

    The effect takes its name from Robert Cialdini, a American psychology professor who wrote a groundbreaking book called Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion. This was no pap psychology book; it was, appropriately enough, a highly influential work that continues to shape social psychology, that mesmerising scientific discipline which examines the sometimes irrational way we behave in our relationships with others. Cialdini showed, among other things, that people do what they see others doing, even when they know they shouldn't.

    The looting of the MSC Napoli off the coast of Devon two years ago is a perfect example. Media coverage showing people walking off with items washed ashore emboldened others to try their luck, culminating in “looting mayhem”, in the words of an inquiry into the incident published this week. The lack of an “all-powerful commander”, such as a police chief - whose presence would have reinforced the message that “salvaging” amounted to stealing - was blamed for the chaos.

    Now a Dutch study has shown that the Cialdini effect is only the start of our troubles. People can actually be steered into criminal behaviour, such as stealing, simply by tinkering with their environment. In fact, the scientists claim, if you know what psychological buttons to press, you can make antisocial behaviour spread like a contagious disease. The paper, which has gone virtually unnoticed beyond the academic community, should be read by anyone who cares how and why people disobey the rules of civil society.

    It seems common sense that a litter-strewn, graffiti-spattered environment will suffer more petty criminality than a pristine one. This is the nub of the broken windows theory espoused by James Wilson and George Kelling in 1982: disorder begets disorder. But, surprisingly, it has never been proven beyond reasonable doubt, because other factors such as policing levels have fogged the picture. Nonetheless, the concept has been whipped up into the idea of zero tolerance policing, in which the stamping out of minor infractions such as graffiti is believed to deter other criminality.

    And so Kees Keizer and a team of behavioural scientists from the University of Groningen designed some experiments that could settle the matter, all to be conducted secretly on Dutch streets. In the first set-up, they chose an alley near a shopping centre where people park their bikes. In the middle of the alley stood a large No Graffiti sign. Dr Keizer's team looped flyers over the bikes' handlebars; any cyclist would need to remove the flyer before pedalling away. Given there were no rubbish bins, would the cyclists take their litter home, or drop it on the ground? The scientists took up their spying positions, and waited.

    When the alley walls were clean, 33 per cent of cyclists dropped the flyer on the pavement or put it on another bike (both counted as littering). When the scientists added graffiti and repeated the experiment on another day, 69 per cent of the cyclists littered, a far bigger difference than would be expected by chance. Could it be possible that one sign of disorder, graffiti, was triggering another undesirable behaviour, littering?

    So they tested the theory another way, this time in a supermarket car park and using flyers shoved under windscreen wipers. When the car park was tidy, with all the shopping trolleys put away, 30 per cent dropped the flyers on the ground. When the car park looked chaotic, with four shopping trolleys strewn around (their handles smeared with petroleum jelly to deter shoppers from grabbing them and thus ruining the experiment), 58 per cent littered.

    Despoiling the environment is one thing; stealing quite another. Dr Keizer's team left an envelope hanging out of a postbox; the stamped and addressed envelope had a window through which could clearly be seen a five-euro note. How would passers-by, or those posting a letter, react when they saw it? The vast majority (87 per cent) either left it alone, or pushed it into the postbox. Only 13 per cent took it away (this was regarded as stealing).

    But roughing up the environment had a dramatic effect. When the postbox was tagged with graffiti, 27 per cent of people stole the letter. When the postbox was surrounded by rubbish (but not graffitied), 25 per cent pocketed the cash.

    The academics, who reported their startling results last month in Science, suggest that disorder does indeed beget disorder; when one social or legal norm is obviously violated, we are tempted to loosen our grip on others. Or, as Dr Keizer writes in the more precise language of psychology: “The most likely interpretation of these results is... that one disorder (graffiti or littering) actually fostered a new disorder (stealing) by weakening the goal of acting appropriately... The mere presence of graffiti more than doubled the number of people littering and stealing.”

    Exactly why our capacity to act honourably melts away in nasty settings is a mystery. Dr Keizer speculates that, when the instinct to act appropriately is pushed to one side, competing instincts - such as to do what feels good or to give in to greed - take over. If we can see that bad behaviour has gone unpunished, perhaps we feel that our own lapses will go uncensured.

    Whatever the reason, the implications for policy are clear.Slapdashery in the environment breeds slapdashery in behaviour, and small transgressions can lead to bigger ones. A community left in squalor will, we can speculate, eventually see its social norms dramatically lowered.

    If you are so inclined, you can summon supporting evidence. Remember the media portraits of Dewsbury Moor, the unhappy setting for the abduction of the schoolgirl Shannon Matthews? This was no Yorkshire idyll: journalists found sink estates peopled by the unemployed and single mothers, where children are raised by a shifting cast of stepfathers against a lapping tide of low-level lawlessness. The missing girl was found to have vanished at the hands of her own mother, who hoped to collect a reward.

    Andrew Norfolk wrote of the place, for this paper, as “a bleak mix of pebbledash council blocks and neglected wasteland... one's attention is all too easily distracted by the rubbish-strewn gardens, the smashed windows, the discarded broken toys”.

    Perhaps we shouldn't underestimate the power of a garden rake and a good glazier.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco Dan View Post
    I was reading the thread on trolley supermarket behavior and started thinking about the Cialdini effect. I found this pretty easy to understand article on it to get people thinking...

    If you see someone riding dangerously or performing stunts - are you then more inclined to try them yourself? If you see a biker drag off a pimply faced boi racer are you more inclined to try next time?

    It seems the power of suggestion and the Cialdini effect have a lot to answer for...


    I do remember reading an article that investigated the relationship in driver behavior to that of trolley pushing in the supermarket - quite interesting but was not online.
    .......so?

  3. #3
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    Oh for goodness sake...

    Seems everything has to be spelt out....

    http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=98779

    http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...d.php?t=104778

    A couple of threads I came across that relate to the article.

    ..well that and pretty much the whole of south Auckland.

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    I like launching the trolley back to the parking bay like it's a long golf putt.

    The rest is appears a wordy way of saying 'lacks self control'.

  5. #5
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    Very true. People follow the lead of other people. Monkey see, monkey do.

    Seen some demonstrations of this once. One they put a person sprawled out on the sidewalk in a busy street. People would keep walking past thinking that maybe the person was just drunk and no one would stop to check. (as everybody else was just walking past too)

    Once they put someone in to check on the person lying on the footpath... then people stopped to help as well. (because they saw someone else helping first)

  6. #6
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    So have any of you seen a bike speed past you, zig zag through a few cars... then you did it?

    Or perhaps just speeding?

    The monkey analogy is very appropriate for a certain 'extremist' group on here that seems to relish law breaking activity and feeds off negative attention.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by short-circuit View Post
    .......so?
    If young Johnny sees dad driving home drunk time and time again... then he will probably grow up with the same behaviour as well.

    Or if young learner motorcycle riders see other riders trying to do stunting on a motorway, then they will think it is cool and want to do it as well.

    Monkey see, monkey do.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco Dan View Post
    I was reading the thread on trolley supermarket behavior and started thinking about the Cialdini effect. I found this pretty easy to understand article on it to get people thinking...

    If you see someone riding dangerously or performing stunts - are you then more inclined to try them yourself? If you see a biker drag off a pimply faced boi racer are you more inclined to try next time?

    It seems the power of suggestion and the Cialdini effect have a lot to answer for...


    I do remember reading an article that investigated the relationship in driver behavior to that of trolley pushing in the supermarket - quite interesting but was not online.

    I don't think your logic is sound.

    The essential element of the experiments your quote could be describes as "No-one seems to care (about this place , it's a mess,) so why should I care (about messing it up a bit more)".

    To put that into your context would not be seeing a single example of prohibited behaviour, but seeing many. Which is indeed the case. You see it on large group rides - if you are with 50 riders and they are all speeding, you are more likely to do so "They are speeding, and no one seems to care - so why should I care ".

    What the experiment really shows is that laws derive their efficacy from endorsement by society. A notice saying "No graffiti" will be respected if it appears that other people are respecting it - ie that society is endorsing the prohibition. If we see that society (or that part of it that is around those parts ) does not endorse the law (as shown by the fact that they ignore it) then we will also regard that law as a nullity.

    If we see that the laws about speeding are not endorsed by society (cos lots of people speed) we will do so to. Our obedience to the law will only be driven by fear of the consequences, not by respect for it. We won't speed when a cop is around, but will once the coast is clear.

    We have seen exactly this happening with drink driving. Some years ago, there were laws against drink driving. They were not generally endorsed by society, and lots of people drank and drove. Now society's attitudes have changed, and the law is respected for itself. Most people won't drink drive, not so much because they fear being caught, but rather because they see everyone respecting the law, and therefore do so themselves. The change is not because the consequences have gotten more serious, but because the law has become respected.

    Education, not legislation, saves lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    This world has lost it's drive, everybody just wants to fit in the be the norm as it were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Vincent
    The manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to find out what the average rider prefers, because the maker who guesses closest to the average preference gets the largest sales. But the average rider is mainly interested in silly (as opposed to useful) “goodies” to try to kid the public that he is riding a racer

  9. #9
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    I saw a major collision of supermarket trolleys this morning when I was wasting time...errrr I mean, doing industrial espionage in PaknSlave. Some dude comes backing up and another dude comes blasting through the intersection of the aisles. BOOOOMMMMM!!!!! (slofox pisses himself laughing from the cover of the biscuit shelf...)
    Now if this had happened on the road, between cages say, there would have been a major slanging match if not fisticuffs as well. But in the supermarket, they were both as apologetic as hell....so how does Cialdini explain that?
    Oh, and incidentally, it did NOT make me want to try it for myself....
    . “No pleasure is worth giving up for two more years in a rest home.” Kingsley Amis

  10. #10
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    The thing is people think they have a free will to do what they like. When actually they are largely a product of their society.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    I don't think your logic is sound.

    To put that into your context would not be seeing a single example of prohibited behaviour, but seeing many. Which is indeed the case.
    Indeed, my attempt to simplify a few examples to ease understanding lost some of the overall meaning of the effect.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco Dan View Post
    I was reading the thread on trolley supermarket behavior and started thinking about the Cialdini effect. I found this pretty easy to understand article on it to get people thinking...

    If you see someone riding dangerously or performing stunts - are you then more inclined to try them yourself? If you see a biker drag off a pimply faced boi racer are you more inclined to try next time?

    It seems the power of suggestion and the Cialdini effect have a lot to answer for...


    I do remember reading an article that investigated the relationship in driver behavior to that of trolley pushing in the supermarket - quite interesting but was not online.
    I was reading the thread on trolley supermarket behavior and started thinking about the Cialdini effect. I found this pretty easy to understand article on it to get people thinking...

    If you see someone riding dangerously or performing stunts - are you then more inclined to try them yourself? If you see a biker drag off a pimply faced boi racer are you more inclined to try next time?

    It seems the power of suggestion and the Cialdini effect have a lot to answer for...[/B]

    I do remember reading an article that investigated the relationship in driver behavior to that of trolley pushing in the supermarket - quite interesting but was not online.

    Or did someone already say that???????


    Quote Jan 2020 Posted by Katman

    Life would be so much easier if you addressed questions with a simple answer.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipshit View Post
    If young Johnny sees dad driving home drunk time and time again... then he will probably grow up with the same behaviour as well.

    Or if young learner motorcycle riders see other riders trying to do stunting on a motorway, then they will think it is cool and want to do it as well.

    Monkey see, monkey do.
    .......and?

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    I agree with this theory to a point.

    I believe it is true if the individual has not very strong values/beliefs regarding the activity he/she has observed.

    If however the given actions contradict with ones personal moral values and views, then the given actions are not likely to have a "monkey see, monkey do" effect on the individual. It will be more like "Monkey see, monkey starts a KB thread, winging about it" effect.
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