86km in a 100km zone = speeding ticket?

[sinned]

This thread is getting boring.

Sure is

12 pages for a non existent ticket...

This is KB

this thread has gone on too long

It is posted in "General Bike Ravings" - note to myself: get a life and don't read anything posted in General Bike Ravings or Rant and Rave.

[Tony]

I doubt it. The law may be an ass but it's still the law and you broke it.

I agree but if you are doing 70km/h on the motorway you are actually breaking a more severe law than the second tier learner restriction rule.

Possibly your ticket was issued by "Rules are Rules" Officer Richard Armstrong?

The New Zealand Police have become victims of a phenomenom called M.T.P. (Mindless technical Policing). Most of the police I know have become frustrated and demoralised with their jobs. They no longer see that their policing activities have much effect on safety. As a consequence many of them are now carrying out MTP with little or no regard to traffic safety. Many of the traffic officers no longer bother to keep current with traffic safety research and issues - they have basically become so frustrated with the buracracy that hinders their jobs and a court system that can no longer function.

The biggest problem with M.T.P. is that this type of policing loses police the support and respect of the public for the police and the law.

Rule 7 of the 1998 Transport Cct states "(2) A person may not drive a motor vehicle, or cause a motor vehicle to be driven, at a speed or in a manner which, having regard to all the circumstances, is or might be dangerous to the public or to a person." (ref: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/p...DLM433613.html)

Diving a motorcycle at 70km/h is clearly in breach of this law.

The ex Minister of Transport Harry Dynhoven clearly stated on the record that it is dangerous tor drive at 70km/h on the motorway and has cited research to back this up. "This restriction is largely ignored. When this speed restriction is adhered to it creates a large difference in the speed of vehicles travelling on the open road. Which is a known safety problem." This speed discrepancy safety issue is also covered in the "Down with Speed" published by the ACC which has become a cornerstone document in the fromulation of LTSA and Ministry of Transports policy directions.

In theory traffic cops should be issuing tickets to all motorcyclists travelling at the dangerous speed of 70km/h for dangerous driving.

The ACC claims "ACC is the lead agency for mortorcycle safety in New Zealand".

The ACC has published safey advice for motorcyclists that includes much good safety advice including. "Move with the traffic as much as you can". This is admittedly open to interpretation but I think you know what they meant.

The LTSA, ACC and the Ministry of Transport have all refered to research conducted by Monash University which states "Until 1987 Victoria had a requirement that drivers could not exceed 80km/h in the first year of licensing. After this restriction was removed, an analysis showed no evidence of an increase in serious crashes" they went on to say "restricting young drivers from high-speed roads was associated with a 5 percent increase in their crash inbolvement" (ref http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/muarc240.pdf)

The Government published a Regulatory Impact Statement on the recommendation to remove the 70Km/h limit on safety grounds. This document has been endorsed by the Natrional Road Safety Committee, Ministry of Transport, Land Transport New Zealand, the Accident Compensation Corportation, the Ministry of Justiceand the New Zealand Police. (ref http://www.transport.govt.nz/about/f...Safety-RIS.pdf)

The road code advises that when merging on to a motorway "change your speed to match the speed of the motorway traffic" for obvious safety reasons. In effect if the traffic is doing 100km/h the road code directs you to match speed with that traffic flow.

Some would argue that the learner restrictions take precedence over the 1998 New Zealand Transport Act but this is not the case. The Learner restrictions are encompased as "Land Transprot Rules". Regulatios and Rules are the key second-tier legislation governing land transport registration, licensing and compliance systems. (ref http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/legislation/...gulations.html.)

If any one would like any further references or source information please let me know. I am happy to assist in the defense of any case around this matter -provided you wern't travelling faster than a 100km/h in which case you do deserve a ticket.

[pzkpfw]

Diving a motorcycle at 70km/h is clearly in breach of this law.

What if you're doing it in a 70 km/hr zone?

The ex Minister of Transport Harry Dynhoven clearly stated on the record that it is dangerous tor drive at 70km/h on the motorway and has cited research to back this up. "This restriction is largely ignored. When this speed restriction is adhered to it creates a large difference in the speed of vehicles travelling on the open road. Which is a known safety problem."

I don't think anybody in this thread would argue against this.

But the point then becomes why the rider is on a road with a limit over 70 km/hr.

In theory traffic cops should be issuing tickets to all motorcyclists travelling at the dangerous speed of 70km/h for dangerous driving.

Depends where they are doing it, doesn't it?

The ACC has published safey advice for motorcyclists that includes much good safety advice including. "Move with the traffic as much as you can". This is admittedly open to interpretation but I think you know what they meant.

So stay out of 100 km/hr zones when you are restricted to 70 km/hr.

The road code advises that when merging on to a motorway "change your speed to match the speed of the motorway traffic" for obvious safety reasons. In effect if the traffic is doing 100km/h the road code directs you to match speed with that traffic flow.

So stay out of 100 km/hr zones when you are restricted to 70 km/hr.

[Mom]

Diving a motorcycle at 70km/h is clearly in breach of this law.

Diving a motorcycle is risky at any speed

[mowgli]

I agree but if you are doing 70km/h on the motorway you are actually breaking a more severe law than the second tier learner restriction rule.

Rule 7 of the 1998 Transport Cct states "(2) A person may not drive a motor vehicle, or cause a motor vehicle to be driven, at a speed or in a manner which, having regard to all the circumstances, is or might be dangerous to the public or to a person." (ref: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/p...DLM433613.html)

Diving a motorcycle at 70km/h is clearly in breach of this law.

Nice post but you've got your references wrong. A learner isn't riding dangerously (in terms of the Act) doing 70kph any more than a truck is driving dangerously when crawling up an incline. Both are travelling at less than the posted limit and both may be holding up other traffic.

They may be in breach of the Act s37 if they "...operate a vehicle on a road carelessly or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road." In other words if they fail to pull over when it is safe to do so to let others past.

Your comments around Mindless Technical Policing are spot on IMHO.

[caseye]

...Diving a motorcycle at 70km/h is clearly in breach of this law...

Diving a motorcycle is risky at any speed

LOL yep other motorists seeing a frogman on a motorcycle just wouldn't know what was about to happen next I reckon.Definitely UNSAFE.

[Tony]

So stay out of 100 km/hr zones when you are restricted to 70 km/hr.

At first glance your suggestion makes apparent self evident sense. However the Monash University study makes several points regarding this.

"Doherty and Andrey (1997, cited in Senserrick & Whelan,2003) found that restricting young drivers from high-speed roads was associated with a 5 percent increase in their crash involvement. They attributed this finding to the restriction forcing young drivers off the highest standard roads onto lower standard, less safe, roads."

Most 100km/h roads have fewer intersections and driveways and less man made obstacles to negotiate and observe - roundabouts, traffic islands, traffic lights, moms dropping kids off to school, etc. On many 100km/h roads that are motorways or expressways traffic travelling in oposite directions is divided by a central barrier (hopefully not a cheesecutter). It may be that these factors contribute to making 100km/h zones the safest zones for novice riders.

New Zealand road 'safety' rules are based on unresearched premises and hunches and the opinions of uninformed people like us and them. The reality is that our road 'safety' rules are not based on research and if we did try to base them on research as we should we would actually need to start doing some real research.

Stephen Joyce has no budget for this so he asks for submissions from us and them and we don't know and neither do them. (We just think we do and so do them).

[vgcspares]

I am happy to assist in the defense of any case around this matter -provided you wern't travelling faster than a 100km/h in which case you do deserve a ticket.

beg to differ - riding slightly faster than the prevailing traffic is a necessary safety device for morcyclists as we can then wholly focus on what's in front

to that end I ride to the prevailing speed PLUS 10 whatever the legal speed limit is

[MSTRS:Me]

beg to differ - riding slightly faster than the prevailing traffic is a necessary safety device for morcyclists as we can then wholly focus on what's in front

to that end I ride to the prevailing speed PLUS 10 whatever the legal speed limit is

Which makes you stand out. To Mr HP. Plus, one would assume that you are passing everything in sight, which means that you are taking an increased number of risks (as there is risk associated with a passing manouevre). I can totally understand why you would think you are safer...but I also think that all you are doing is swapping one sort of danger for another.

[Ixion]

beg to differ - riding slightly faster than the prevailing traffic is a necessary safety device for morcyclists as we can then wholly focus on what's in front

to that end I ride to the prevailing speed PLUS 10 whatever the legal speed limit is

I also like to keep clear of traffic. I like a little clear box around me, free of idiots.

However I use a slightly different formula. Prevailing speed + 10 unless that would involve too much plod-risk. In which case, prevailing speed MINUS 10 , and let the idiots go on ahead.

Sometime though you have a whole bunch of idiots at various speeds. In which case neither plus or minus will work. So then you have to assess the risk of a few seconds at DECENT speed to get clear of the fast idiots.

[sleemanj]

beg to differ - riding slightly faster than the prevailing traffic is a necessary safety device for morcyclists

There should be no need (except amusement or splitting) for extended travel at above the prevailing speed of traffic.

Just open up a space and do what you need to keep it open, but you don't need to keep pushing through the traffic flow.

You should be doing this no matter if you're on a bike or in a car, properly spaced traffic is not only safer it is much more efficient and has a very noticable affect on traffic flows.

as we can then wholly focus on what's in front

You should very much always be aware of what's going on behind you! "Wholly focussing" your attention ahead isn't a good idea. Adopt a state of constant awareness of everything around you.

[vgcspares]

we've all ridden for many years and have our own formulae - mine hasn't killed me yet, nor broken any bones, nor attracted more than an acceptable level of interest from the cops on three continents (US, UK and here) so each to his own I guess

[scumdog]

beg to differ - riding slightly faster than the prevailing traffic is a necessary safety device for morcyclists as we can then wholly focus on what's in front

to that end I ride to the prevailing speed PLUS 10 whatever the legal speed limit is

Sooooo, lemme see, when the rest of the traffic is doing 100 to 105 kph YOU are doing bursts of 135+kph then back down to 115 or so - and zipping in and out of the 'slower' vehicles as you pass them??

Nice troll.

[vgcspares]

the answer will depend on what you do for a living