The Group Ride Guide Announcement

[_STAIN_]

So, it would be up to me to ensure the competency of any rider that turned up for a ride I had planned on here?

Surely not?

there has always been the chance of someone taking a legal challange against an organiser... but now in coroners court they have a document they can print out and use to say we did not uphold

[MadDuck]

Texting is looking better and better to me

Dont text me tomorrow I will be busy riding

By myself

[Squiggles]

So, it would be up to me to ensure the competency of any rider that turned up for a ride I had planned on here?

Surely not?

If you enforced a guideline then wouldnt you be making that call? Else its up to them to decide. Suggesting the ride is/isnt suitable to learners has been going on for ages on rides posted here...
Some rides arent suitable and a rider who isnt up to it shows up... umms and arrs then because they've come to the meeting point decides what the hell i'll go along, they might be fine they might not be (could spoil a beautiful day with an hourlong stop to clean things up). If they'd known the ride wasnt going to suit then they might've picked to go on another...

^^ Long example, badly written but hope it conveys my thoughts

Oh that makes it all good, best I go and study up on them then.

Texting is looking better and better to me

Ill take texting to mean inviting a couple of select friends, what be the difference anyway? (imo) Is it still not a good idea to all know where ya going, have someone watching the back yadayada... People seem to hung up over the mention of liability, rather than all the other ideas.

[Ixion]

There seems to be an enormous amount of scaremongering going on here by the Heaven Born based on this nebulous "legal liability". They (the HB) would have us believe that if someone posts up "I'm riding to XYZ, anyone who wants to tag along is welcome", and said someone tagging along stuffs up a corner and injures self (or worse) and smashes up his bike, then the organiser is off to gaol right fast.

Now, given the size of the bogeyman that is being presented to us, I'd be VERY interested to see this "legal opinion". And know the qualifications of the person giving it. QC is he?

How does he get round one of the principle provisions of the ACC act, that no tort can lie for personal injury?

And I would suggest, that when the "organiser" receives no payment, has no recognised position, and there is no written sign up, that any legal liability is indeed, scaremongering, pure and simple.

If I am on a ride , alone, and I stop at a gas station to fill up, and another bikes pulls up (I've never met him before): the usual "Howdy do". "I'm riding to XYZ". "Why so am I ". And of course, we ride out at much the same time, and (perhaps, if our riding styles are similar) may accompany one another for many miles to our common destination. Now, if I crash while following him, is he liable as "ride organiser" for not having ascertained by skill level, briefed me on many page of stuff etc? Similarly , if he crashes following me, am I likewise liable? What if I deem him not so skilled as I? Am I supposed to tell him "No, you may not ride on this road, because I am riding on it, and you, a mere tyro, are not sufficiently skilled to accompany me". What humbug.

And if he (an I) are so liable, what about if we just catch up to one another on the roa ? never a word said. I've often followed such chance met riders for many leagues.

If the Heaven Born are to be believed, if someone so chance met crashes following me, I'm off to gaol.

I don't believe it. In the immortal words of Mr Bumble, "If the law says that, Sir, the law's an ass". And I don't believe it is such an ass as that.

This whole thing seems a storm in a teacup, whipped up by the Heaven Born.

[Virago]

Who are these "Heaven Born" anyway? I'd like to meet them.

[MadDuck]

This whole thing seems a storm in a teacup, whipped up by the Heaven Born.

Mr Ixion you are so correct. Wanna go for a ride?

KB guidelines dont apply

[Squiggles]

There seems to be an enormous amount of scaremongering going on here based on this nebulous "legal liability".

Agreed, and i believe your post just added to it Biker God (Heavenly one surely? XD) That the ideas of many have been collated into a single set of posts is a scary concept for some it seems. (Or at least, they are on the topic of Group Ride Safety but not Removing Helmets, Riding out Tank slappers, or riding at "the Pace".)

[Mental Trousers]

Who are these "Heaven Born" anyway? I'd like to meet them.

Now don't be like that. You know you can't meet imaginary friends.

What I find interesting is that some people seem to think that The Stranger has the power to make up a set of rules and enforce them. I always thought that Spank and me were the only ones around here who could set the rules but apparently not.

As for legal liability, that was included because 99% of the population have no idea about it so hopefully that advice will help them understand that there shouldn't be any problem.

[The Stranger:Me]

There seems to be an enormous amount of scaremongering going on here by...

This whole thing seems a storm in a teacup, whipped up by the Heaven Born.

I'm sure you do find Mom and MadDuck quite attractive, who wouldn't, but heaven born, come on.

The explanation of legal liability opens -

"Legal advice obtained is that it is highly unlikely that the organiser of a social group ride could be held accountable for the ride or the actions of others on the ride."

Now I thought that meant there is a remote chance.
Unfortunately, nonetheless there is a chance. I am sorry if people find the concept of being held accountable for their actions scarey, but it is possible and does happen from time to time that people are held accountable for their actions.

So if the heaven born would read the information the storm would quickly pass.

By all means Ixion, engage a QC should you desire to spend the money, I would welcome their opinion.

I shall leave you with a quote from a lawyer from another public thread.

"However, when someone dies - and there have been far too many deaths already on KB-assisted rides - then you can be sure that the coroners will increasingly be focussing on how the rider's deaths occurred, and who organised what. All it needs is for someone's Mummy to say at an inquest, "Oh, Clint from KB organised this and made it too hard for my little Deadikins", and the brown will meet the whirly thing. Coroners can and do recommend criminal prosecutions."

[_STAIN_]

Now don't be like that. You know you can't meet imaginary friends.

What I find interesting is that some people seem to think that The Stranger has the power to make up a set of rules and enforce them. I always thought that Spank and me were the only ones around here who could set the rules but apparently not.

As for legal liability, that was included because 99% of the population have no idea about it so hopefully that advice will help them understand that there shouldn't be any problem.

you have allowed someone to post a document containing guidelines / rules for conduct of the organizer / group

I love the continued use of these words "shouldn't " "highly unlikely" "remote chance"
you are just acknowledging the huge Grey Area

isn't this kiwibitcher, talk shit "Forum"
time you and spank had a good think about this direction away from running a forum to allowing ride conduct rules to be set in place, but not by you... this doesn't give you an out

if big shit happens I know where you 2 will be standing

[The Stranger:Me]

you have allowed someone to post a document containing guidelines / rules for conduct of the organizer / group

I love the continued use of these words "shouldn't " "highly unlikely" "remote chance"
you are just acknowledging the huge Grey Area

isn't this kiwibitcher, talk shit "Forum"
time you and spank had a good think about this direction away from running a forum to allowing ride conduct rules to be set in place, but not by you... this doesn't give you an out

if big shit happens I know where you 2 will be standing

_STAIN_ Your posts rarely have a conclusion. There is nothing actually said, and nothing to which one can reply thus they generally appear purely as rantings. Now working on the assumption that your post was an attempt to be constructive, and not just talking shit.

Yes, they have allowed someone free speach, both spankme and MT appear to be very pro free speach. Great isn't it?

Hello, there IS a huge grey area - it's the law FFS, it IS grey. What's your point?

Where exactly will Spank and MT be standing?

[Kiwi Graham:Me]

For those of you busy throwing your teddy’s around and stamping your feet over these guidelines;

They’re bloody GUIDELINES!!!

You’re all grown ups so make your own mind up………..dont want to follow them?.....then don’t…..your call…… there clearly not for you, so wind your neck in and carry on your merry way with that rushing wind sound being the point travelling way overhead.

The reason there here is because a fair portion of the KB community asked for something to be done (can only assume the teddy throwers weren’t among them) about trying to reduce the number of accidents and tragedies that happen on group rides.

I say again they are guidelines, not rules. They won’t be enforced; they are there, if followed to reduce the chances of something happening to ruin the day for someone (it might even be you). It is to raise awareness of the responsibilities that each and every one of us has to another and remind us the cloak of invincibility can be breached if the worst happens.

None of us go out for a ride with the thought of not returning, however this has happened to an ever increasing number of participants on group rides advertised on this forum. Read the guidelines, follow all if not some of them, hope those you’re riding with do the same and all things considered you should get to do it all again another day.

[caseye]

While I've said that in principal the guidelines are good ones, I've not had much to say about them since then, in general terms their intent and if implimented by a ride organiser their meaning are quite clearly there to help protect all who attend an organised (by a KB member)ride.
No problem there.
As someone who has had high risk operations going on, on building sites, I can tell you that if there is a set of guidelines and they are not followed, when something goes wrong the first thing OSH look for is this.
Who was responsible for "this" operation.
Are there 'GUIDELINES'?
Were they followed?
Yes I know I said OSH and under the present law they have no jurisdiction in recreational activities where no one is employed or contracted to do/organise something.
BUTT People believe me they are trying hard to get in there and when they do, we as KB Members who now have a written set of "Guidelines" will most certainly be expected to make every attempt to follow them.
Coroners having the power to order enquiries and recomment criminal proceedings agaisnt individuals is a fact, it has been done before and I'm sure will be again.
We are probably damnd if we do and damnd if we don't.
Pesonally I'd rather have some sort of guide than nothing and I do actually think that 'The Ride Guide" is a reasonable document( a couple of exceptions. Organisers assessing other riders? on what basis? are they quialified to do so?, splitting rides into smaller pods, why?)
I've posted ride notices before, lead them, TEC'd them and had one or two unexpected incidents, the possiblity of being made responsible for someone elses mistakes makes my blood boil, it should not even have to be considered, but here we are.
I will continue to do as I have in the past for the social group/s I belong to and to hell with the weather,Um sorry Authorities.
What I think everyone here should be aware of now is this.
"In my humble opinion" Though "The Ride Guide" is not a KB sanctioned/approved document, it is nevertheless a written how too and would become by default what any investigation would refer to in assessing blame or culpability.The gib board fixing guidelines if not followed to the letter will Null and Void any warranty claim by the fixer if it is discovered they were not followed exactly,"Fact"

In conclusion, though our members involved in the conception of "The Ride Guide" did so with the very best of intentions.
We the riders now have a yardstick by which we "can" be measured and found wanting, or not by any official body who thinks they can butt in and have a go at us.
The words and thoughts printed above are simply my observations and opinions based on actual experience of having investigative authorities ( Osh in the example of building sites) involved.

[Squiggles]

BUTT People believe me they are trying hard to get in there and when they do, we as KB Members who now have a written set of "Guidelines" will most certainly be expected to make every attempt to follow them.

If that day comes im sure material all over the internet (& in prints like the road code) will have to be reviewed...

[The Stranger:Me]

BUTT People believe me they are trying hard to get in there and when they do, we as KB Members who now have a written set of "Guidelines" will most certainly be expected to make every attempt to follow them.

Thank you for what is obviously a considered response.

I too am from the building industry. I did a lot of work in the early stages after the OSH act became law which was used by Master Builders. Whilst it was some time ago, I am somewhat familiar with the principals.

Using your OSH analogy.
Head in the sand is not accepted excuse, neither is ignorance. This is the principal I have adopted here. Some seem to be of the view that ignoring or pleading ignorance will be a better defence, as with OSH, I sincerely doubt that this would be the case.