Group ride sticky

[The Stranger:Me]

Ok, I thought this would be the outcome, I appreciate the intent of the sticky and hopefully it will prove to be a useful means of clarifying the experience level required for a ride.

For our rides how are we going to measure the level of riding ability required?
Public roads: Slow, Medium or Anthrax?
Private property / tracks: Bike size and easy, medium or where's the helicopter?

Is this information going to be enough?

All the upcoming rides, I assume you organising individuals have a plan for this?

Not being an adventure rider, I must apologise and plead ignorance here.

From my intro post
"It is anticipated that the guidelines can not cover every situation nor should all be applicable to every ride. But please, let people know what to expect so that they may make an informed decision as to whether they should attend the ride or not."

That is the key as I see it. People need to know what to expect so they may make an informed decision. If you have done this the decision and thus responsibility is then theirs not yours. The suggestion about using experience is about what the rider should expect and not a hard and fast thing. There are other ways to convey what they should expect - describe the terrain perhaps?

[Waihou Thumper]

Not being an adventure rider, I must apologise and plead ignorance here.

From my intro post
"It is anticipated that the guidelines can not cover every situation nor should all be applicable to every ride. But please, let people know what to expect so that they may make an informed decision as to whether they should attend the ride or not."

That is the key as I see it. People need to know what to expect so they may make an informed decision. If you have done this the decision and thus responsibility is then theirs not yours. The suggestion about using experience is about what the rider should expect and not a hard and fast thing. There are other ways to convey what they should expect - describe the terrain perhaps?

We all ride to our own abilities. The Sunday fundraising trail ride on Smiths' farm. Kids, adults, Mums and all and sundry turn up. We ride, we fall off and break bones.....I haven't really heard of anyone claiming that we shouldn't be doing this because of the terrain, we let peole know by arrows, markings etc and if you choose to do it then you do. (trail rides)
AND, not all make you sign indemnity forms, escpecially the fundraisers....
I know GNCC, Trail Blazers etc will have waivers and things..They have done this for a few years, just got more serious about it I guess due to the jaded past events like these have had.....

Are you saying that because I or someone might not explain that it is slippery and steep in parts I am resposible for the possibility of that person falling or injuring them selves?
Describing the terrain, well, 'it is steep and knarly', this would just get all of us fizzing and excited about being here....

Make it a 'nana' course and no water or mud, shit, then we may as well just ride to a cafe in town and look like ADV riders...
Oh, hang on, that is an organised tea party then, we might have to notify the council for resource consent.....

[CookMySock]

I don't think you are going to achieve your goals at all.

Make it more enjoyable? How exactly?

Get more people to ride in groups? What is the mechanism by which you will acheive that?

Avoid legal comebacks? What legal comebacks exactly and precisely, do you currently face that you are aiming to dodge?

Make things safer? I can see this happening.. if there are group rides any more after OSH gets their toe in the door.

I think you have driven the thin edge of the wedge actually, and potentially wrecked forever the thing you profess to protect. The last thing we need are OSH guidlines or legal precedent set for group rides, but you have inadvertantly given them a headstart.

Be it on your head.

Steve

[Drunken Monkey]

We all ride to our own abilities.

I think one of Noel's points is the sticky has been raised because your statement is in fact false. I'm sure I don't need to direct you to the numerous threads on this site, be it minor accident or tragic accident, that the rider(s) who were injured/killed were done so entirely at their own hands because they rode outside their abilities.
Again, I think this was aimed more at road rides than adventure rides, so don't get too excited. I certainly don't recall any incidents where an adventure/off road ride resulted in a severe or worse accident because someone who shouldn't have been there tagged along because they weren't informed.

[Waihou Thumper]

We ride to our own ADV abilities the majority of time and some ride to their own perceived abilities....Yes. We have all at some stage bitten off more than we could chew on the roads and tracks.
Thanks for pointing that out...

[The Stranger:Me]

Are you saying that because I or someone might not explain that it is slippery and steep in parts I am resposible for the possibility of that person falling or injuring them selves?
Describing the terrain, well, 'it is steep and knarly', this would just get all of us fizzing and excited about being here....

Make it a 'nana' course and no water or mud, shit, then we may as well just ride to a cafe in town and look like ADV riders...
Oh, hang on, that is an organised tea party then, we might have to notify the council for resource consent.....

Hmm, serious communication breakdown right here.
Pretty much I am not suggesting anything of the kind at all.
See post 35 re possible legal outcome.
It's not to say you are or will be found responsible
Look at the aftermath of the court case from Christchurch. No one thought an organiser would be held liable, the shocks caused sporting events to be cancelled and had people running for cover, lawyers and insurance left right and center. All it took was one case.
Now apply that principal to a KB ride and a potential case say as outlined in my post 35. I am suggesting you be aware of the possibility/s and mitigate it. You don't have to, no problem, it's entirely up to you.

What in any of my posts leads you to think I am suggesting we don't undertake tricky rides? Because obviously I need to modify it.

[The Stranger:Me]

Get more people to ride in groups? What is the mechanism by which you will acheive that?

Sorry, did I suggest this was a goal somewhere? But perhaps if they are not percieved as quite so dangerous attendance would increase, who knows?

Avoid legal comebacks? What legal comebacks exactly and precisely, do you currently face that you are aiming to dodge?

Learn to read.

Make things safer? I can see this happening.. if there are group rides any more after OSH gets their toe in the door.

I think you have driven the thin edge of the wedge actually, and potentially wrecked forever the thing you profess to protect. The last thing we need are OSH guidlines or legal precedent set for group rides, but you have inadvertantly given them a headstart.

OSH? What the fuck? You run a business don't you?
You don't have a fucken clue do you? Best you understand the OSH requirements if you are going to run a business or quote this shit. And you think I'm scaremongering, at least I'm not doing it in complete ignorance.

Be it on your head.

Well, I feel bad enough about this. It truely was a collaboration and the input from others was huge and deserves the bulk of the credit, but I thank you for your compliment on behalf of all.

Steve

I know I shouldn't feed the ignorant, but.

[CookMySock]

Haha, /me makes flushing sound.

Steve

[clint640]

Make things safer? I can see this happening.. if there are group rides any more after OSH gets their toe in the door.

Steve

OSH: Occupational Safety & Health.

They have no jurisdiction unless somebody is WORKING. No one is working on our group rides, no one is getting paid, there is no employer.

OSH is not an issue for us unless we are allowed in someone's workplace, like a farm or commercial forest, where the owner/manager will have the duty to warn us about any unusual hazards.

Cheers
Clint

[CookMySock]

OSH: Occupational Safety & Health.

They have no jurisdiction unless somebody is WORKING. No one is working on our group rides, no one is getting paid, there is no employer.

OSH is not an issue for us unless we are allowed in someone's workplace, like a farm or commercial forest, where the owner/manager will have the duty to warn us about any unusual hazards.

Yeah, but you know how goverment things work.. Someone upstairs seems some cool new way of thinking, and ta-da new legislation! An organised ride is very close to a PAID organised ride, which is a completely new situation.

Anyway, like I said, technically I do not take issue with the document, and personally I will use it, but if there are comebacks, possibly it will go bad. Real bad. No one wants this, least of all the authors of the document.

Steve

[The Stranger:Me]

Yeah, but you know how goverment things work.. Someone upstairs seems some cool new way of thinking, and ta-da new legislation! An organised ride is very close to a PAID organised ride, which is a completely new situation.

Sure the govt *may* strrrreeeetttttch the OSH act to include rides. It would be a huge stretch and would require a rewrite of the act, but still, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility. But I would put money on it being done as a result of accidents, not as a result of something I said on the Internet.






I know you are listening John, I have a lot more ideas for you.

[cooneyr]

....Look at the aftermath of the court case from Christchurch. No one thought an organiser would be held liable, the shocks caused sporting events to be cancelled and had people running for cover, lawyers and insurance left right and center. All it took was one case....

Surely Le Race is completely different in a legal sense from a ride organised on here. Having competed in Le Race, Rainbow Rage, Round Taupo etc it is very clear that they are distinctly different from a ride organised on a forum. The key difference is the perceived level of organisation that stems from

1. Paid entry;
2. Signatures on forms;
3. Traffic management on public roads resulting in changes from the road rules i.e. not having to stop at traffic signals cause there is a cop on point duty;
4. Road closures and instructions that can be miss-interpreted

All of these things create a level of exception that "someone" out there is looking after me, I don't have to think for myself cause I'll just do as I'm told. This in my mind is where all the problems stem from - people not taking personal responsibility and using their head.

We never charge for ride entry, we dont get people to sign forms, road rules apply and when in the true back blocks common sense i.e. keep an eye out for others applies. I'd love to get a bit of coin in my pocket for organising the DB1k or similar but I'd have though that would have been the trigger that kicks it from a informal ride to an organised ride and I don't want that hassle.

Cheers R

[clint640]

We never charge for ride entry, we dont get people to sign forms, road rules apply and when in the true back blocks common sense i.e. keep an eye out for others applies. I'd love to get a bit of coin in my pocket for organising the DB1k or similar but I'd have though that would have been the trigger that kicks it from a informal ride to an organised ride and I don't want that hassle.

Cheers R

Exactly, I would hate to have somebody put off from organising the kinds of rides that you & I have run, due to perceived 'OSH Issues'. There aren't any. End of story.

Cheers
Clint

[The Stranger:Me]

Surely Le Race is completely different in a legal sense from a ride organised on here.

Absolutely, as I have noted twice in this thread already, from a legal perspective it is not relavent.

However, I used it in reference to costs and to impact.
Post 35 sets out a possible legal ramification.

[MXNUT]

One simple guideline I would like to see for ADV rides, If someone catches up to you, they are travelling faster than you, get out of there way and let them pass

hmm maybe ??

If someone catches up to you they should have the skills to pass safely.
Don't risk your safety just to let someone past.

I agree totaly

+1

About 100 Years ago when I was an NZACU Steward - the rule was that it was contingent on the person making the pass to do it safely.

I would also add to this that, at any offroad well organized event now they will also tell you to hold your own line and let the other rider find his/her way past. I think this also applies to ADV riding also.

This does pose some questions about etiquette on an adv ride that I think some noobs (and me) do wonder about.

For example :

1. Will you offend someone by passing them (anywhere)?
2. How close is too close to follow ?
Your opinions.........

1. If it is done safely then it should not offend them, if it does then it is their problem. One other thing i try to do when passing on a gravel road is to build speed first then complete the passing manouvre off the throttle so that i dont roost any one
(or pass them on the far right side of the road).

I have a butt ugly rear gaurd extender on the back of my bike which i would lose in a minute other than i think it stops roost to the riders behind !.

2. 3 bike lengths

Hi, my names Bart and I'm a speedaholic.

OK, I'm no angel. I get caught up in the moment, and ride like an idiot at times, but every time I ride, it's totally at my own risk.

Are you sure your name is Bart ??? ( cause it sounds like you just described me )