Group ride sticky

[PeteJ]

The one I work for was never in the Knock for Knock.
Generally it doesn't work for smaller insurers.
I'm surprised no one has had a go at through the Commerce Commission.
It can be anti-competitive.

Yeah, that's what I thought. However, the result (in eg the UK now) is insurer v insurer litigation. Once that happens here, we'll see a much more litigious environment again than we have yet seen.

[cooneyr]

.....I would never organize another ride if I thought that the ride participants believed I was in any way responsible for their safety....

Me neither - this is scaring the shit out of me.

Basically what I'm hearing is that if somebody died as a result of the DB1k then I'd have a really hard time defending the "it's just too hard for anybody to do given the distance and time" argument. From what I'm hearing this is would be a civil case that might be brought against me by a parent, spouse, sibling etc rather than a criminal case.

If I'm hearing this right then I think I understand why a disclaimer has no weight cause it was the rider that signed up for it not the parent, spouse, sibling etc therefore it is their opinion against mine without even taking into account the thoughts to the rider.

So what the hell do we do? Many people on here rely on the rides organised/ connived/whatever the hell we call it to meet up with others and have a bit of fun?

The ridiculous thing is that I cannot see how there is any more/different legal liability organising a ride here on KB to if I was to text a few mates about a ride. The only thing that changes is the form of communication. Arguably communication is better here on KB - is that the problem?

......and CooneyR...... my left ankles still partialy fucked after that D.B.09 malarky

Ya what? I know nothing and I don't want to know anything! Nobody made you do! Learn how to ride you slow, useless, 80's technology riding geriatric

Cheers R

[PeteJ]

Put it this way, Ryan - the more organising you do, the more likely it is that someone might have a crack at you if it goes pear-shaped. The less organised a ride is, the more ability you have to say that everything was up to the individuals to look after themselves.

Sounds wacky, and objectively it is.

I despise this "blame" culture where people are unwilling to accept that shit occasionally just happens, but I do recognise that that's the way it is, and it shows no sign of abating.

[Crisis management]

The ridiculous thing is that I cannot see how there is any more/different legal liability organising a ride here on KB to if I was to text a few mates about a ride. The only thing that changes is the form of communication. Arguably communication is better here on KB - is that the problem?

The reason I brought this up is that there is a written record on KB of the planning, who organised and now a guide of how you're supposed to do it. To me this is a clear string of "evidence" that could be used against you, if Pete or Stu have any comments as to how we could protect ourselves against any liability I would love to hear.
Failing that, I will preface any ride I "may" organise with the following: "I'm riding to X and will meet you lot there, have a great time and take care".

Can't think of anything else but am open to any suggestions.

[PeteJ]

Yeah, Iain, I'm too old and tired to think about people wanting to have a go at me for failing to look after them when they should have looked after themselves. I would not like to suggest that ride organisers be encouraged to get everyone to sign indemnity forms, but I am told that's been happening in Australia for some time now (see The Bear in several issues last year of "Australian Road Rider"). Blame the blame culture.

However, on KB we read reports after many of the "organised" rides of mishaps up to and including fatalities. Why join that pattern, which is now so established that it must be drawing attention to itself in officialdom, government and private? The more you organise, the more you're on the skyline. And he who walks the skyline presents the best target...

It's not just my observation that group riding on the roads is bloody dangerous - some of my most trusted racing cobbers refuse to ride on the road, especially with a group, because they consider it too dangerous. (An example whom some of you may know: Vince Sharpe).

And in fact, Iain, the group riding thread you mentioned first is introduced on the home page of this forum by a statement that what we do is a dangerous game. That, as such, is bullshit. Motorcycle road and backroad riding can be perfectly safe, and is, for thousands of riders. But you can make it dangerous eg by riding in a group with riders of unknown abilities.

[The Stranger:Me]

Me neither - this is scaring the shit out of me.

Basically what I'm hearing is that if somebody died as a result of the DB1k then I'd have a really hard time defending the "it's just too hard for anybody to do given the distance and time" argument. From what I'm hearing this is would be a civil case that might be brought against me by a parent, spouse, sibling etc rather than a criminal case.

If I'm hearing this right then I think I understand why a disclaimer has no weight cause it was the rider that signed up for it not the parent, spouse, sibling etc therefore it is their opinion against mine without even taking into account the thoughts to the rider.

So what the hell do we do? Many people on here rely on the rides organised/ connived/whatever the hell we call it to meet up with others and have a bit of fun?

The ridiculous thing is that I cannot see how there is any more/different legal liability organising a ride here on KB to if I was to text a few mates about a ride. The only thing that changes is the form of communication. Arguably communication is better here on KB - is that the problem?

I must say, I'm impressed. Honestly
You've nailed a lot of points there.

You've kind of bought home the gravity of the situation. To just blindly say it can't happen (as some seem to be suggesting) is to delude one's self.
You've also noted one of the reasons a disclaimer wasn't included (yet at least). People may rely upon it when it is actually ineffective.

You are very unlikely to face a criminal prosecution. Road rules are very thorough, well established and well tested. So much so that the govt didn't even try and fook with them in the original OSH act - traffic accidents were specifically excluded from the act for this reason.

Just because someone dies or is injured, you are not necessarily going to face a problem. In fact, on the balance of probabilities you are NOT going to have a problem.
That doesn't however mean you won't.


For one thing, if everyone comes home safe and sound, there can be no problems right - a key tenet of the guide.

If you have taken all reasonable steps to inform people what they are getting themselves into and despite this they still attend, how would you expect that a parent, spouse, relative etc could blame you? - another key tenet.

If in the unlikely event you did get charged or prosecuted would you rather say
1) I realise that motorcycling is dangerous, I told him so (in writing in my post), furthermore, I took all reasonable precautions as agreed by a group of very experienced motorcyclists with a combined experience of a million years.
OR
2) I realise that motorcycling is dangerous so I stuck my head in the sand and hoped nothing would go wrong.
Which one do you think a judge/jury would rather hear?

KB or a group of mates - the difference, you have probably cherry picked the riders to suit the conditions. It's going to be hard for my parents to have a go at you as I am big and ugly enough to make my own decisions due to my vast experience - cough , cough.

[The Stranger:Me]

Put it this way, Ryan - the more organising you do, the more likely it is that someone might have a crack at you if it goes pear-shaped. The less organised a ride is, the more ability you have to say that everything was up to the individuals to look after themselves.

I believe you are 100% correct as it relates to rules or the enforcing of guidelines. Essentially, if you try and enforce them they become rules. Rules come with responsibility.
For example, were you to scrutineer bikes, or check for correct gear or license you are taking control and thus responsibility.
The guidelines as published deliberately stay away from this.
However I believe they do offer some potential benefits as set out in my last post.

[tri boy]

except start posting under Tri-boys name

Swap ya the 990 for my pass word.
Alter ego for an Orange nasty.
Bargain of the year.
(for me)

[PeteJ]

Thanks, Brent. Yeah, we were getting all too serious...

Cheers

PJ

[bart]

no ride organizer can be held responsible for people who ride adventure bikes like they were mx'ers

next Bart will want me to pay for his cosmetic reconstructive surgery
(I would have to sell the house)

Ok we even then, but personally I think bart should be paying you.

Haha, if anything, the scars have improved my looks.

To be honest, I've had ten times worse on the rugby feild. The moment you put on a helmet (or rugby boots), you know there may be consequences. All actions have a reaction. If you ride beyond your ability, you will be caught out eventually.

Must admit that this thread has opened my eyes about organising rides. I think the key is to make absolutly sure that all participants know exactly what they are in for.

[marks]

If you ride beyond your ability, you will be caught out eventually.

particularly if there is some bastard pointing a camera at you

[xgnr]

NOT wanting to inflame things further, but you seem to be missing the elephant.
It may not be up to you or the other ride participants to decide, it may be a jury of your peers and it may cost you tens of thousands of dollars for the privilege.

Is this guy a lawyer or what?

What happened to riding with others just for the pleasure of it?

FFS

[Squiggles]

Is this guy a lawyer or what?

What happened to riding with others just for the pleasure of it?

FFS

Have you read the Group Ride Guide?

[clint640]

What happened to riding with others just for the pleasure of it?

Don't worry. It'll be happening again soon on an Adv ride near you

I haven't seen any hard facts in all the above waffle that will stop me organising rides, or even change the way I do things. In fact Oscars assertion that it is very unlikely that an insurance company will have a go at me for someone elses crash actually gives me one less thing to worry about

Ride On
Clint

[MXNUT]

Calling the fun police.........