So motorcycle deaths are overrepresented

[The Stranger:Me]

What I was getting at Noel is that a big chunk of the motoring public suffer from what trainers would call "Unconscious Incompetence" i.e. They don't know what they don't know because the current level of driver training is so low. Throw some better quality training in and there's a fighting chance that the penny will drop.

I could bang on all day about it but hope that gives the gist of my thoughts.

You're preaching to the converted here. I have spent long enough at RRRS to see it a hundred times.
That's education though, not as per the original thought of failing to accept responsibility for, or failing to learn from an accident. Few don't play over the events in thier minds and wonder what could have, should have been done.

That said, I wouldn't bother to reply but for a point you do raise.
We see it time and again at RRRS the "alpha" males turn up and do the course, not because they want or need any assistance, but because their partner or mates need it - not them.

When they turn up in this frame of mind it takes about half to three quarters of a day for the penny to drop that actually there are some things they didn't know, when the reality is we can see there was much they didn't know from the start - only they didn't know that.
Somehow I doubt they would start learning ever again if not for the controlled environment and concerted effort.

[MarkH]

Are you suggesting that they "do something about the road conditions" so it's safer for us to go faster?

Far better to leave the loose gravel on the apex of a corner so most will ride with caution and some will die?
It is an interesting idea, but I think I would rather see the roads improved.

[MarkH]

I still think an idea that I put forward on these forums a while back has much merit:
When someone has been naughty and loses their license due to too many demerit points there should be a course they could do that is cheaper than paying a lawyer to get them a limited license. A pass on that course = reinstated license. The course should be well designed and lead to safer drivers - or else, what is the point! This course should be at least 2 days - maybe 2 weekends or 4 weekdays. Maybe drivers could be sentenced to one of these courses instead of a license suspension for minor offenses and as well as whatever else for the more serious offenses. This course should be mandatory for any new driver/rider to gain a license.

I think a well designed 4 day course could cover enough to make a significant improvement to the average drivers ability to keep themselves and others safe.

[oldrider]

So sad to hear so many bikers are dying.
I believe nothing will change, even in 10 years time.
Bikers will be bikers. Im not being negative, just realistic.

Bikers are there own worst enemies, I have to agree.
There are not many bikers that do not want to pass car doing 100km hr

I have not met one yet. If the car is doing 110 /120+ the biker will still pass it.

Bikers cannot admit that they are not fast, cool, and slow, it just aint right.

You also have to keep up with faster bikers, even though you are not really capable or feel safe doing so. Admit it, you cant lose face can you. Even if it costs you your life.

You cannot change human nature, even if you try for 10 years, 100 years, you cannot admit that your bike, your horse, your steel horse, part of you, the bike that you love, is inferior to the dudes bike in front that you are trying to keep up with.Admit it, Dont ever back down and think about your mates family, etc that are going to miss you when you die, or look after you in a wheel chair. Na dont back down, try to catch up, even if you have to go fast through intersections, and push it hard into the corners, you'll catch up with him....When he visits you in hospital.


You'll be right! Mate Dont back down, your bike is better than his and you are a better rider.

There are not many exceptions to this rule!!!

Yeah Right- Human Nature

You are not just talking about motorcyclists here, this is the psyche of almost every motorist in New Zealand, motorcyclists are just an easy group to target!

On our loop ride on Sunday 120 miles of fantastic riding, (views scenery superb) relatively uncluttered roads, the average speed encountered would have been seventy to eighty miles per hour!

Not motorbikes but cars, buses, trucks, including boats trailers and all manner of drivers including your little old lady types!

One mixed line of traffic required (another biker not me) speeds in excess of 100mph (160kph) to even catch them let alone pass them!

New Zealand drivers do not respect or obey the traffic laws because they are almost meaningless, all they do is look out for traffic police and avoid them whenever they can.

Motorcyclists are no different than any other sector of road users!

Tidy up the stupid laws and the judiciary system, give the Police true powers and support, win back public respect and watch our road toll diminish!

[MSTRS:Me]

I think you'll find that the general public believes that motorcyclists should be constrained by the same set of rules that govern the whole of our society.

Until motorcyclists are seen as a whole to be recognising that fact we don't stand a shit show of getting anything changed.

And I think you will find that a fair number of the general public believes that motorcycles should be banned altogether "Bloody dangerous things..."

'Until motorcyclists are seen' - yep, that's one of the dangers we have to deal with. He said, flippantly.

In real terms, though, as approx 3% of the motoring 'fleet', does anyone really think that our needs will be catered for? Cheesecutters, for instance. Generally pretty good for the average car, no? Well, cheap-ish, anyway. Yes, we shouldn't ride so as to risk coming into contact with these killers, but again the reality is it has happened and will again. But not often enough for TPTB to replace with 'biker-friendly' barriers.
I've said it before, and here again, if roads etc were designed with motorcyclists in mind, every motorist would gain. But no, instead what we get is an off-camber corner, with poor quality seal that's lost most of its chip. But fix the seal etc? Nope. Put up a roadside barrier to catch the wayward vehicle (but will kill us). It's cheaper, eh?

[StoneY]

Damn, I'll have to go for the loud pipes then...

I got those already-

Still got hit- youth on RGV 250 trying to make all 3 lanes of the motorway in one move hit my tail end

I didnt hear him- see him- or even to be honest really register he had hit the 1100 from behind,

Bright, loud, BIG bike- stiill got hit BY ANOTHER BIKER being a womble!!

Its all about how we behave imho (or misbehave) on public roads
(yes I am guilty too, thanksfully not THAT time)

[JMemonic]

Who's saying class is the only issue?

I am talking about 16-24 representing 50% of the deaths on our roads and the ability of a 17 year old to obtain full licence at that age.

You did, see here

16 year olds get their restricted licences, pay the government $ sit in a classroom and accelerate their time and get full at 17. It's a licence to kill.

[mynameis]

You did, see here

Yes and if you use your brains and interpret it properly it's not only the class it's the age.

[2wheeldrifter]

For me it would have to start when you get you licence..


Learners licence = Do a Defensive driving course -

Restricted = Do a advanced driving course/Drink driving education

Full = Skid pad training/advanced control training...

Costs I hear some cry? the cost will get the new driver cheaper insurance premiums for under 25 years... (most parents would love!) ACC rego costs for these new drivers would be cheaper to if the vehicle is registered in their name.
For the rest of us we will have to wait for this sort of training system to gather momentum for our ACC costs to drop.

Now for motorbikes... The Basic handling skills test needs to be way improved on.. what I have seen and heard it's a joke. Keeping this simple,

Basic handling test = Learners

Riding skills/understanding motorcycles = Restricted

Advanced riding skills coruse = full

Costs the some deal as the car. You want to drive/ride then you pay for the privilege with the ofset costs will be your insurance and your ACC levys etc.

Driver education and training.... as normal needs a kick in the pants and the money.

If you want to fight and fix a problem, start at the first possible cause,not half way though it.

Just my thoughts.......................

[JMemonic]

Yes and if you use your brains and interpret it properly it's not only the class it's the age.

Thought I had made myself clear the first time back on page 3

I had my full M/C licence at 17, didn't get my car till I was 18 or 19 neither hear nor there, its not the class of licence that's the issue, its attitude, education and distractions.

nice of you not to notice.

Ban car radios, cellphones, all the other distractions going on in the car and who knows, get rid of airbags and ABS, make people actually learn how to drive instead of dependent on technology hmm too hard really.

Oh for those who say ABS, dayglow vests etc, every bike and car ever built has ABS, its the rider or driver, as to dayglow and abundance of these this suddenly makes them invisable, think of the saying cant see the wood for the trees.

[jono035]

Ban car radios, cellphones, all the other distractions going on in the car and who knows, get rid of airbags and ABS, make people actually learn how to drive instead of dependent on technology hmm too hard really.

Oh for those who say ABS, dayglow vests etc, every bike and car ever built has ABS, its the rider or driver, as to dayglow and abundance of these this suddenly makes them invisable, think of the saying cant see the wood for the trees.

Back to horse drawn buggies perhaps?

I don't actually think that 'dayglow' colours are common enough yet to make people 'invisible' and I don't think it will be that way until it becomes fashionable to make houses and fences those colours... It is a matter of contrast, not colour.

[MSTRS:Me]

I don't actually think that 'dayglow' colours are common enough yet to make people 'invisible' and I don't think it will be that way until it becomes fashionable to make houses and fences those colours... It is a matter of contrast, not colour.

So how do you explain the fact that road cones and road workers are being bowled as much as they ever were??? The fact is, bright colours etc do not protect you from those who aren't looking.

[jono035]

So how do you explain the fact that road cones and road workers are being bowled as much as they ever were??? The fact is, bright colours etc do not protect you from those who aren't looking.

I certainly never claimed anywhere in my post that they would save you from anything... I don't think the fact that brightly coloured fabric/plastic doesn't protect you from cars has much to do with how common dayglow is now... You could have all the flashing lights, bright signs, honking horns etc. in the world and it still only helps if the person is actually paying attention.

Still, I'm sure if they went to wearing black overalls there would probably be more accidents.

[Mom]

Back to horse drawn buggies perhaps?

I don't actually think that 'dayglow' colours are common enough yet to make people 'invisible' and I don't think it will be that way until it becomes fashionable to make houses and fences those colours... It is a matter of contrast, not colour.

See and I think they make not a blind bit of difference at all. The only reason I would wear one would be in low light/dark situations where the reflective stripes on them stand out like the perverbial dogs balls. I ride with a really focussed attitude to my riding, I am not of the school that says you will have a crash, it is part of motorcycling. To that I say bullshit. I dont hold with that sentiment at all, I ride to avoid risk and do everything I can to help prevent me becoming a statistic.

[mynameis]

Thought I had made myself clear the first time back on page 3



nice of you not to notice.

Ban car radios, cellphones, all the other distractions going on in the car and who knows, get rid of airbags and ABS, make people actually learn how to drive instead of dependent on technology hmm too hard really.

Oh for those who say ABS, dayglow vests etc, every bike and car ever built has ABS, its the rider or driver, as to dayglow and abundance of these this suddenly makes them invisable, think of the saying cant see the wood for the trees.

Haha your IQ is obviously flying below the radar