Swerving...

**Ixion** · 9th October 2009, 08:57

Originally Posted by NDORFN

Going round and round on a 250 in a carpark... Dangerous in what way? What could happen? A broken ankle or wrist at worst. You must be the biggest pussy on KB.

Perhaps so, but a pussy that's still going round unscathed after nearly 50 years

Does it not occur to you that the dynamics of adhesion are SPEED RELATED. And that suspension behaviour changes at speed. And under braking. What works in a car park won't work in a 100km corner. And BUMP related. And CAMBER related. And a SHIT load of other stuff related. And that when the car park lean angle doesn't work out in that 100kph corner, the result is likely to be much worse that a broken ankle or wrist.

Car park slow practice is a GoodThing. Falling off is never a GoodThing.

Go round and round in a car park by all means. Just don't assume that means jack shit about "learning how far you can lean your bike before a peg or exhaust hits and levers your wheels out ".

Oh, and BTW, a peg or zorst touching down will NOT "lever your wheels out". Not if you know what you are doing. Otherwise my pegs and silencers wouldn't be ground down and scraped.

**retro asian** · 9th October 2009, 09:05

Put a cone, or other unthreatening obstacle in the middle of a car park.

Ride straight towards it, and then practise going each way to avoid it (using countersteering technique).

Be relaxed, take it slowly to begin with, repeat and very gradually try to do better each time.

**The Pastor** · 9th October 2009, 09:06

Originally Posted by Ixion

Perhaps so, but a pussy that's still going round unscathed after nearly 50 years

Does it not occur to you that the dynamics of adhesion are SPEED RELATED. And that suspension behaviour changes at speed. And under braking. What works in a car park won't work in a 100km corner. And BUMP related. And CAMBER related. And a SHIT load of other stuff related. And that when the car park lean angle doesn't work out in that 100kph corner, the result is likely to be much worse that a broken ankle or wrist.

Car park slow practice is a GoodThing. Falling off is never a GoodThing.

Go round and round in a car park by all means. Just don't assume that means jack shit about "learning how far you can lean your bike before a peg or exhaust hits and levers your wheels out ".

Oh, and BTW, a peg or zorst touching down will NOT "lever your wheels out". Not if you know what you are doing. Otherwise my pegs and silencers wouldn't be ground down and scraped.

technically it will lever you wheel off the gound, but you have to hit them hard enough to over come your susspension and weight of the bike + rider....

**vifferman** · 9th October 2009, 09:08

Practicing swerving depends on two things: you go where you look, and to turn a bike quickly, push hard on the bars (right bar to go right, left to go left).
Oh - and 'Practice Makes Perfect'.
So that's three (3) things.

You need gravity too.
And some momentum.

Anyway, here's how it works. First, practice riding doing exaggerated S-curves, on a quiet piece of road, or an unused carpark, so you get the feel of wiggling the bike around.

Next, when you're riding along, pick something as a marker (patch on the road, lane marker, catseye, banana peel, dead wombat, like whatever). As you approach it, choose a route around it (left or right, as appropriate), and keep your eyes on that route, as you give the bars a firm nudge. Stop pushing on the bars and push slightly the other way, to come back on course.

Practice doing small swerves at first, then move onto bigger ones (firmer nudges for slightly longer).

After doing this a few times, it will become patterned into your brain, and you should be able to do it without thinking.

In a critical situation, the most important thing is to pick an escape route, and keep your attention focused on it. You can glance elsewhere, to see if your escape route needs adjusting, as long as your focus is NOT on what you're trying to avoid.

**magicmonkey** · 9th October 2009, 09:15

Originally Posted by vifferman

Practicing swerving depends on two things: you go where you look, and to turn a bike quickly, push hard on the bars (right bar to go right, left to go left).
Oh - and 'Practice Makes Perfect'.
So that's three (3) things.

You need gravity too.
And some momentum.

Anyway, here's how it works. First, practice riding doing exaggerated S-curves, on a quiet piece of road, or an unused carpark, so you get the feel of wiggling the bike around.

Next, when you're riding along, pick something as a marker (patch on the road, lane marker, catseye, banana peel, dead wombat, like whatever). As you approach it, choose a route around it (left or right, as appropriate), and keep your eyes on that route, as you give the bars a firm nudge. Stop pushing on the bars and push slightly the other way, to come back on course.

Practice doing small swerves at first, then move onto bigger ones (firmer nudges for slightly longer).

After doing this a few times, it will become patterned into your brain, and you should be able to do it without thinking.

In a critical situation, the most important thing is to pick an escape route, and keep your attention focused on it. You can glance elsewhere, to see if your escape route needs adjusting, as long as your focus is NOT on what you're trying to avoid.

this might be a really silly question, but if I'm leaned over after countersteering by pressing on the right bar, would I need to countersteer by pressing on the left bar to go left? Or, do slow riding steering dynamics come back into play when leaned over (ie, pointing the wheel in the direction you want to go rather than countersteering)

I'm not too sure I've been very clear there :s

**MSTRS:Me** · 9th October 2009, 09:23

Originally Posted by NDORFN

It's a mental thing dummy. How many people have died because they were afraid to dig it in? How many people have died because they dug it in too far?

Originally Posted by Ixion

That has to be one of the silliest, and potentially most dangerous "recommendations" I have ever read here .

Please, if you are a learner IGNORE IT.

God, it's almost enough to make me sign up to the Katman Foundation

Originally Posted by NDORFN

Going round and round on a 250 in a carpark... Dangerous in what way? What could happen? A broken ankle or wrist at worst. You must be the biggest pussy on KB.

Originally Posted by Ixion

Perhaps so, but a pussy that's still going round unscathed after nearly 50 years

Does it not occur to you that the dynamics of adhesion are SPEED RELATED. And that suspension behaviour changes at speed. And under braking. What works in a car park won't work in a 100km corner. And BUMP related. And CAMBER related. And a SHIT load of other stuff related. And that when the car park lean angle doesn't work out in that 100kph corner, the result is likely to be much worse that a broken ankle or wrist.

Car park slow practice is a GoodThing. Falling off is never a GoodThing.

Go round and round in a car park by all means. Just don't assume that means jack shit about "learning how far you can lean your bike before a peg or exhaust hits and levers your wheels out ".

Oh, and BTW, a peg or zorst touching down will NOT "lever your wheels out". Not if you know what you are doing. Otherwise my pegs and silencers wouldn't be ground down and scraped.

Don't you just love how the young think that us OldFarts (tm) know nothing?

**davereid** · 9th October 2009, 09:23

Originally Posted by magicmonkey

Ok, so I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here as I still need to get emergency braking sorted out properly but I'm working on that, honest!The idea has hit me that after I've put in a few more hours practice and I'm comfortable with emergency stops I should probably find my way to a car park and practice swerves before getting out on the road properly

Good on ya for thinking of your skill level so objectively before getting on the road.

Traveling at a safe speed, so that you can easily stop in the clear road ahead with your current level of skill is the first thing to master !

Swerving, to my mind may have its place, but its usually as the result of a dog - cat - possum - Toyota putting itself into the bit of clear road you had just allocated yourself.

I have always found that swerving is anticipated by the dog - cat - possum - toyota which will rapidly re-deploy itself to your new bit of clear road !

So practice your braking first.

Don't follow any advice that suggests going in circles to see how long it takes you to fall off, as you will fall off.

Its a shame so many learners choose the GN250 and similar as a learner bike.

Years ago the "chook chaser" - thats a road legal dirt bike was a much more common choice.

We learned how to brake, control skids and wheel step-outs off road, while having fun.

No one ever deliberately crashed, but you would test your limits on slippery dirt, sand and grass, and soon master minor skids and step-outs without pain, or expensive bike damage.

**NDORFN** · 9th October 2009, 09:23

Originally Posted by Ixion

Perhaps so, but a pussy that's still going round unscathed after nearly 50 years

Does it not occur to you that the dynamics of adhesion are SPEED RELATED. And that suspension behaviour changes at speed. And under braking. What works in a car park won't work in a 100km corner. And BUMP related. And CAMBER related. And a SHIT load of other stuff related. And that when the car park lean angle doesn't work out in that 100kph corner, the result is likely to be much worse that a broken ankle or wrist.

Car park slow practice is a GoodThing. Falling off is never a GoodThing.

Go round and round in a car park by all means. Just don't assume that means jack shit about "learning how far you can lean your bike before a peg or exhaust hits and levers your wheels out ".

Oh, and BTW, a peg or zorst touching down will NOT "lever your wheels out". Not if you know what you are doing. Otherwise my pegs and silencers wouldn't be ground down and scraped.

Not shit Sherlock. But it's a good start. You have to learn to walk before you can run, and mastering your bike in a carpark is starting point. He/she can learn about the way that speed, road conditions, braking etc... factor into swerving in a progressive manner as they expand thier practise beyond the carpark. But without those foundations they wont have the mental preparation for the road ie. going round a corner at 100kph and realising they're going to overshoot. If they've leaned thier bike over till it scrapes in a carpark, they're going to have the balls to dig it in and if they haven't, they're going to hit the brakes and achieve nothing but lines for the crash inspectors to measure. Anyhow, at the end of the day there are two types or bikers. Ones who do everything in theory, thinking through every situation, sitting behind thier computer reading up on how to ride etc... and there are ones who just get on a bike and learn how to ride it. You're obviously the former and I the latter.

**MSTRS:Me** · 9th October 2009, 09:25

Originally Posted by magicmonkey

this might be a really silly question, but if I'm leaned over after countersteering by pressing on the right bar, would I need to countersteer by pressing on the left bar to go left? Or, do slow riding steering dynamics come back into play when leaned over (ie, pointing the wheel in the direction you want to go rather than countersteering)

I'm not too sure I've been very clear there :s

Clear enough. You need to push on the bar to go in that direction and then push on the opposite bar to change back. How hard you push will vary depending on your speed and how quick/much you need to change course.

**Katman** · 9th October 2009, 09:25

In conjunction with learning to swerve, aim to improve your situational awareness so the possibility of needing to swerve is reduced.

**vifferman** · 9th October 2009, 09:26

Depends how fast you're going exactly what you do, but the pushing on the bar thing is about what the contact patch is doing, and moving it to effect a change in dynamics. Yes, at slow speed, you're just pointing the front wheel where you're going, but at that speed you really don't need to take avoiding action, as you can stop pretty quickly. (Just make sure you get the bike upright).

It's all about practice, and getting a feel for what happens in a variety of situations and at various speeds, so that you don't need to think before you react in an emergency. Then all you'll be doing is looking for a way out, and thinking about options, while your body (programmed by all your practice) does what it should, under control of your right hemisphere.

**magicmonkey** · 9th October 2009, 09:27

Originally Posted by MSTRS

Clear enough. You need to push on the bar to go in that direction and then push on the opposite bar to change back. How hard you push will vary depending on your speed and how quick/much you need to change course.

So, just to clarify, countersteering still applies when your leant over, right?

**Felix52** · 9th October 2009, 09:28

If you had to countersteer to begin the swerve, you'll have to countersteer to come back upright. Doing it the other way would be an easy way to come off.

A good way to get the hang of countersteering is to find a straight place to ride (road, carpark, etc), get a bit of speed up, and give one of the bars a (gentle!) nudge. You'll get the hang of it fairly fast.

For swerving, just do one nudge each way to get the feel of it, then start working on steering around things using it. I tend to practice on manhole covers on the way home from work.

**vifferman** · 9th October 2009, 09:30

Originally Posted by Katman

In conjunction with learning to swerve, aim to improve your situational awareness so the possibility of needing to swerve is reduced.

A very, very good point, Dr Katman!

You give yourself a LOT more time to respond if you do that, and are a lot less likely to need to take emergency action as you will have already taken appropriate steps to turn what could have been an emergency into nothing at all. If it was the Spanish Inquisition, you'd be screwed, but it's only numpties playing on the road (including the odd cat, dog, or errant football).