Duc chick
For goodness' sake people, lighten up!!!
A light hearted take on the 'joys' of the beginning of summer by the original postee Beyond was getting bogged down in the usual mire of argument and dissention, so we have another equally light-hearted take on the situation by our newbie friend RavenR44.
His post was funny dammit! And he's new to KB but still he gets the venom usually reserved for those who have apparently been embedded here for life... sigh..
Just not what biking's all about.
Jabulani Kupela www.michelleclair.com
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exactly, soon he shall learn that the bulk of kb'r is about the senseless and pointless arguing, I dont come here for the biking, i get on my bike for the bikingOriginally Posted by sondela
but yes, i take your point, i shall stop now.... i mean soon, i just need closure!
Thats quite possibly the crux of it, what we as individual motorist perceive as considerate, is not what others do, thus generating animosity (think thats the right word) between groups. I shall agree with your logic, but ill still be extra careful round those dangerous cyclist in summer, and those dangerous tractors/cager/bikers, and 32m long superyachts
"A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal
Hardcore Biker
Good post bogan, and I'm just arguing that their needs to be less animosity on the roads, I don't really want to rape your wives after I run those red lights on my bicycle... even if I say I do.
Try getting out of your cars and smelling the roses once in a while.
I'm ultra chilled in my car these days, because I'm just thankful when someone lets me in their lane or gives way to me when they are supposed to. I take nothing for granted.
Whisky Tango Foxtrot?
I thought it was because bicycles lack number plates! Motorcycles could easily do the same thing - not just nimble but also able to accelerate through the intersection much faster. But motorcycles have number plates which can be photographed by red light cameras or noted by police officers that the motorcyclist didn't notice.
----------------------------------------------------
"If the cops didn't see it, I didn't do it!"
- George Carlin (RIP)
Duc chick
exactly, soon he shall learn that the bulk of kb'r is about the senseless and pointless arguing, I dont come here for the biking, i get on my bike for the biking
Thats quite possibly the crux of it, what we as individual motorist perceive as considerate, is not what others do, thus generating animosity (think thats the right word) between groups. I shall agree with your logic, but ill still be extra careful round those dangerous cyclist in summer, and those dangerous tractors/cager/bikers, and 32m long superyachts
Haha good! I'm glad you agree
and yes, those darn Yachts!
I'd be on my bike for biking too.. but it's raining
Jabulani Kupela www.michelleclair.com
Hardcore Biker
Yeah that's a point, but motorcycles are lacking some vital nimbleness along with kerb jumping prowess required for running reds. Bicycles can go between cars and swap ghost lanes in about two feet of space infront of and beside stationary cars. Some situations will suit a motorbike as much as a bicycle, but bicycles are far superior in many situations. Main issue is definitely the identification. Still I knew some scooter couriers, who ran complete freedom just like the bicycle couriers. Cost them a lot in fines though.
And just a shot at Sondela, we were having a rip roaring argument and you come in here and try to pansy it all up. I suppose it goes well with my anti-animosity ideal. But I love a good debate (read: argument). Gets me pumped.
Forum whore
One major reason why other road users dislike cyclists is the total unpredictability of the latter. Coupled with their expectation that it is everyone's job, except their own, to keep them safe.
Unlike every other vehicle, cycles have : no indicators; and they NEVER use hand signals; no stop lights ; and ditto no hand signals; no mirrors; and they never look behind or shoulder check; and if you are following one you just KNOW that sometime soon he's going to hang a suicidal hard right turn straight across your bow. And it'll be up to you to somehow avoid him. Followed by shooting straight across the other side of the road directly in front of the oncoming traffic, which of course he ignores on the basis that it's the other guys job to keep him safe. So, the oncoming then has to take violent evasive action - very possibly putting him on a collision course directly toward ME.
So, other traffic naturally always wants to get past them. Once they're behind you, you can relax.
And if they (cyclists) are heading toward you you can guarantee that some at least of them will spread out into your lane forcing you into the ditch to avoid them.
Forum whore
I should have thought that was obvious. The cyclist running the red light endangers ME. I am put in the position where I must either do the "small animal" thing, and coldbloodedly run him down and kill him. Or, take emergency evasive action, at danger to myself ,praying that the guy in the lane beside me can stop in time when I swing across in front of him to avoid hitting the cyclist.
It is inconsiderate because it is demanding that I endanger myself, and my passengers, and other road users, for his convenience. Just exactly teh same as any other red light runner. Doesn't really get any more inconsiderate than that.
Hardcore Biker
Ixion you scare me sometimes. Please tell me how many times cyclists have crossed the centerline to come over and force you into a ditch? I have never seen or heard of anything like that before. Also, I have never had a cyclist do a hard suicidal right turn in front of me?
If you are overtaking a vehicle from behind, guess what, it is your responsibility to do so safely, be it a tractor, a car, a motorcycle a bicycle, or even another race motorcycle (with no brake lights) on the race track.
What you have failed to realise, and is the majority of your problem, is you need to relax BEFORE you overtake them, instead of getting your back up as soon as you see them. They are just another possible hazard (and a pretty bloody minor one) amongst, pedestrians, motorcyclists, trucks, train crossings, powerpoles, letterboxes, busses, kerbs, speedbumps etc. Don't focus your traffic frustrations on possibly the most defenseless and inconsequential traffic on the roads is all I'm asking.
If you are "following" one, they always do a head check to register whether or not they can cross over, and if there's cars close behind them they nearly always do an arm indication, I know I do, and I'm possibly one of the worst behaving cyclists to ever roam the streets.
It's almost a case of cognitive dissonance. Lack of understanding of scale of inconvenience and hazard analysis.
Bored Room
You guys would have loved Romania in 2004...their primary form of transport out of the cities was the horse and cart....I kid you not.
We counted over 100 in an hour after crossing from Bulgaria.
Our Kombi van was one of the fastest vehicles on the road....that was until I was passing a horse and cart...and in the distance a truck was approaching when suddenly what I think was a Lomborghini overtook me at warp speed and just missed the truck.....it must have been doing over 200kmph.
Anyone who moans about Kiwi driving should go to Eastern Europe to hone their skills.
In Turkey overtaking a car ( with a motorcycle) is seen as an insult and they will try and get past you on the next downhill.....
Trucks pass into on coming traffic and flash you to get out of the way....being at the lower end of the motoring pecking order its best to comply.
Like Kiwis they are very nice when not behind the wheel.
Hardcore Biker
So when did the cyclist running the red change into cyclist running red endangering other road users? I've probably made a couple of mistakes running reds where cars have had to slow or not accelerate as quickly. But it would definitely be far less than 0.5% of the reds that I've run, but never has an accident eventuated, nor has anyone apart from myself ever been in any real danger.
I would rate the number of accidentless red lights that I've run to be on the order of 5 significant figures. In the highest density worst behaved traffic in the country.
Want to know how. I take full responsibility for my own safety, I don't rely on anyone else to do their bit not to hit me. As mentioned once in a blue moon I do have the odd incident where it could have ended badly. My last crash on the bicycle involved a car coming the wrongway out of a one way (specifically fort st), turning right into oncoming traffic to go up emily place while I was turning into fort st to her left (looking at her front on). There were just way too many things she was doing that I didn't expect, but I won't make the same mistake again... notice that I see me crashing in this instance to be a mistake that I made. Even though she was in the wrong, I value my life enough to learn from it and to not allow it to happen to me again. I take full responsibility if I carry momentum into another road user. Car drivers like you need to learn to do the same.
Hardcore Biker
Nice, I just got back from South America, and in reality the hazards here are nothing in comparison, yet I would think the crash rate here between CAR DRIVERS similar.You guys would have loved Romania in 2004...their primary form of transport out of the cities was the horse and cart....I kid you not.
We counted over 100 in an hour after crossing from Bulgaria.
Our Kombi van was one of the fastest vehicles on the road....that was until I was passing a horse and cart...and in the distance a truck was approaching when suddenly what I think was a Lomborghini overtook me at warp speed and just missed the truck.....it must have been doing over 200kmph.
Anyone who moans about Kiwi driving should go to Eastern Europe to hone their skills.
In Turkey overtaking a car ( with a motorcycle) is seen as an insult and they will try and get past you on the next downhill.....
Trucks pass into on coming traffic and flash you to get out of the way....being at the lower end of the motoring pecking order its best to comply.
Like Kiwis they are very nice when not behind the wheel.
Lane markings mean nothing, speeding is par for the course, traffic lights are entirely optional, and road surfaces can be like playing a computer game of dodge the pothole, yet the attitude of the drivers protects them from crashing despite the relative speed with which the traffic flows. They don't take any other drivers behaviour for granted (a bit like how you have to behave on a bicycle to survive). They take it into their own responsibility to not hit another vehicle and not let another vehicle hit them. 99% of them can't afford to crash their cars, and I would say insurance rates would be about 1%. Both stats that I just made up but give you some idea of the situation. They also never get worked up or aggravated. Still not a perfect situation.
Living in Melbourne last year i noticed something else on the other end of the scale. The driver behaviour there is better than in Auckland but they are always tooting each other and getting angry about minor things. It seems that the better the road behaviour the worse the tempers.
Maybe if we banned insurance here, there would be more personal responsibility thus dropping the crash rates significantly.
Forum whore
That may be so. But the vast majority of cyclists are another matter. There is an intersection near me where the practice is particularly prevalent (especially at weekends).
One at least totally owes his life to the fact that, when he shot out through the red without even slowing down or looking, I happened to be driving the Alfatoy, with incredibly good brakes, not the Pajero .which takes most of the county to pull up. And there was noone close behind me who might have rearended me . If it had been the Pajero, he'd have been dead. Mrs Ixion was in the car, I wouldn't have endangered her for the sake of an idiot.
I see this happening every week. And I have observed at least one car to car crash caused by a red light running cyclist. Car A swerved to avoid the cyclist , and was hit by car B. Quite badly.
So, yes, cyclist running red lights DO endanger me. And as you don't have a big flag affixed saying "VTEC - I'm OK". I will not assume that every cyclist is you.
Hardcore Biker
Fair post, but one cyclist running a red so you had to slam on your brakes does not mean that cyclists shouldn't be on the road. How many times have you had to jump on the brakes in your car or on your motorbike due to other motorvehicles which carried a lot more mass/momentum/energy than said bicycle? I would say the ratio of bicycle brake slams to motorvehicle brake slams would be on the order of 1:100, please give me your ratio. My personal ratio in my car is actually 0:∞ On this information it could be assumed that CARS are unsafe for the road and should be banned. On my bicycle I have to jump on the brakes at least once every 5 to 10 minutes to not hit other road users (including pedestrians j walking), cars failing to give way, busses swinging over and squeezing me into parked cars, other bicycles and low and behold... cars running red lights. Personal responsibility keeps me alive and awesome.
Also, the car to car crash "caused by a bicycle" through different eyes would be interpreted as the cars not able to stop in the clear road ahead of themselves, or that they just 'tarded it up to the max.
And thanks for acknowledging the awesomeness of my traffic navigations skills
Forum whore
Many times. As in more than single figures, less than hundreds.
Individual cyclists on their own are seldom a big problem. It's when they are in bunches that they do incredibly stupid shit.
Tractors are not 'nimble'. You yourself have touted the nimbleness of the cycle. That same nimbleness which means he may dodge in front of me without warning. Tractors don't. Cars and tractors have indicators, and drivers who in most cases have some idea of the road rules and at least a vague respect for them.
If you are overtaking a vehicle from behind, guess what, it is your responsibility to do so safely, be it a tractor, a car, a motorcycle a bicycle, or even another race motorcycle (with no brake lights) on the race track.
See above. Most of the things you specify either signal , stay in one place (when was the last time a letterbox jumped out in front of you?), or at least have some predictability
What you have failed to realise, and is the majority of your problem, is you need to relax BEFORE you overtake them, instead of getting your back up as soon as you see them. They are just another possible hazard (and a pretty bloody minor one) amongst, pedestrians, motorcyclists, trucks, train crossings, powerpoles, letterboxes, busses, kerbs, speedbumps etc. Don't focus your traffic frustrations on possibly the most defenseless and inconsequential traffic on the roads is all I'm asking.
The only thing more unpredictable on the roads than cyclists are animals.
You complain somewhere of motorists sounding their horns when coming up behind cyclists. Have you considered that they do it for the same reason as a wise driver does it for sheep. To alert the animal that you are there, and encourage it to do whatever it's going to do when startled BEFORE overtaking it. I'd rather sound my horn and have the sheep , or cyclist, do whatever crazy thing it's going to do while I'm still some way behind.
You seem to be living on a different planet to me. I have NEVER seen a cyclist hand signal (not for many years anyway). And I am aware of hand signals because I regularly ride a bike without indicators. So, I hand signal. Cyclists never do.If you are "following" one, they always do a head check to register whether or not they can cross over, and if there's cars close behind them they nearly always do an arm indication, I know I do, and I'm possibly one of the worst behaving cyclists to ever roam the streets.
It's almost a case of cognitive dissonance. Lack of understanding of scale of inconvenience and hazard analysis.
And unlike cars (which often don't indicate) you can never predict where they are about to go from their road positioning. Because the latter is weird and illogical beyond any comprehension.
And I've never noticed one checking behind. in fact, given their riding position I doubt it's possible.
Motorcyclists emphasise the importance of a high degree of situational awareness. Cyclists on the other hand have zero and seem to think it irrelevant to them.
I must say, though , that there is ONE cyclist that I see regularly, an old Chinaman, who is very good. Predictable, safe riding. The exception that proves the rule.
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